Confirmed: Jean-Eric Vergne ousted by Toro Rosso

[Doc Austin]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/confirmed-jean-eric-vergne-ousted-by-toro-rosso

Wow. 24 years old and run out of F1! I guess this is the new tread: bring them in as teenagers and by the time they are 25 boot them out.

I hope he finds a good drive in WEC or Formula E or something.

[zako85]

They should have kept him around as a test driver for development work and as insurance against the possibility that the teenage driver team will implode.

[Mark]

STR is a delveopment team first and foremost, he's had 4 years driving for them which is a bigger chance than most get in F1. So it's not really surprising that he's being moved on.

[Robinho]

Thought he was pretty much equal to Ricciardo last year (and see what he's done) plus he's had a strong year this year, some great races, lots of very good overtakes, think he deserves a seat somewhere. Unfortunately there are less somewheres left with losing caterham and marussia

[A FONDO]

I won't miss him

[Doc Austin]

There have been rumors of Red Bull wanting to get back into Indycars, so perhaps Vergne has a possibility to stay with Red Bull there. It does not make sense that they would completely give up on their investment.

[Tazio]

Ba-bye. :wave:
I thought you were a pretty good country f1 pilot.
Welcome to oblivion mate ;(

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, at least I have another team to root against besides Sauber now.

Here's hoping JEV finds a ride somewhere else at some point. The kid is capable of laying it down... at least when the motivation hits him. Really not happy to see him go, even though I wasn't a HUGE fan. But seeing him go while Maldonado and Ericsson stay grates me.

[jens]

Vergne is a decent driver though in my view Ricciardo was slightly more impressive, when they were together at Toro Rosso. But considering how good Ricciardo has turned out to be, Vergne is still a competitive driver.

[longisland]

Personally, I rate him the highest among all the STR drivers after Seb,, Ricciardo & Kvyat. There's life besides F1. Buemi & Davidson had a good year in WEC, mcnish became one of the most sucessful drivers in WEC, Zanardi is a living legend.. I wish JEV well & believed he will fulfill his potential

[anfield5]

Shame on you red bull, treating JEV like a used towel!!

He is easily in the top half of the 2014 field talent-wise. I have seen rumours that he will end up testing for Williams, I hope this is true and he is in position to replace Massa in 2016. As already mentioned it is crazy that JEV is without a seat when Meathead keeps his drive at Toleman and Ericsson is drafted into Sauber.

No disrespect to Daniil K. (who looked impressive this year), but I would have given him a second year at STR to further develop and given JEV a year at RBR to prove how good he is, having said that though I certainly dont begrudge Daniil his chance for the big team and I really do wish him well

[Doc Austin]

He is easily in the top half of the 2014 field talent-wise. I have seen rumours that he will end up testing for Williams, I hope this is true and he is in position to replace Massa in 2016.

Claire Williams: "Thanks for developing our next driver for us!"

You put the money in for four years and then dump the guy? Business wise that's like flushing money down the toilet (or "the loo" for you Brits).


As already mentioned it is crazy that JEV is without a seat when Meathead keeps his drive at Toleman, and Ericsson is drafted into Sauber......

This is what you get when it takes $95 million a year to run a Sauber well enough to score zero points. Think about that. $95 million dollars and that didn't even buy them a single point.



No disrespect to Daniil K. (who looked impressive this year), but I would have given him a second year at STR to further develop and given JEV a year at RBR to prove how good he is,

Those two were evenly matched at Torro Rosso, so why wouldn't you want another driver as good as Ricciardo? Perhaps those two just couldn't work together or something. There has to be another reason besides performance that Vergne is being cut loose. I

[rjbetty]

This is a real shame, but sadly I expected this from before the season...

Red Bull and Dr Marko have their way of running things, and if that seems right to them, I guess there´s not much we can do. It´s just chuck the driver in at the deep end and strictly sink or swim.

The only reservation I have with this is that I'm not sure being bang on the pace straight away is the ONLY way to become a top driver. Maybe someone can be just as good or better, just that they develop more slowly, but go further in the end. i.e. I'm not sure a lack of instant success necessarily means a driver won't be great.

I do think JEV has developed to where he's just around the top 10 in F1 currently, so if it were a fair place he should quite easily have a ride elsewhere. One thing I am disappointed in is the 12-7 qualifying stat in Kvyat's favour. Seems quali is still a struggle...

[Robinho]

JEV and Jenson should buy one of the redundant teams, with Ross Brawn as principal. I'd support them.

[Jag_Warrior]

JEV and Jenson should buy one of the redundant teams, with Ross Brawn as principal. I'd support them.

If he could lose the accent, start calling himself "Jeff" instead of JEV and buy a house outside of Charlotte, NC... a shoe-in for Haas F1? :D Seriously though, of the available drivers, surely Vergne (and Button) would have to be at the top of the list. Well ahead of Sutil, I would think, and also Alexander Rossi (American driver be darned; get the best driver that you can... and stop mentioning Danicant's name - she's completely unqualified!!!).

[Doc Austin]

Not completely unexpected:Toro Rosso confirms Sainz alongside Verstappen (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-confirms-sainz-alongside-verstappen)

[Tazio]

I have seen rumours that he will end up testing for Williams, I hope this is true and he is in position to replace Massa in 2016.



Let's face it, he is no Susie Wolff :confused: :rolleyes:

Susie Wolff's F1 rise is not tokenism – but a triumph over the odds
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/susie-wolffs-f1-rise-is-not-tokenism--but-a-triumph-over-the-odds-9891891.html

Whatever method she adopts to gain traction the point remains she wouldn’t be in the car if she were not seriously quick. When Wolff appeared in Friday practice in Germany she closed only a couple of tenths behind Felipe Massa, a veteran of 210 grands prix and 11 race wins. That proves she is deserving :stareup:. Never mind that she is 31 and when in her prime got spanky, spanky, spanked in every series that she participated in!

[jens]

The way we are about to lose Vergne reminds me Alguersuari, who seemed to become a pretty competent driver in 2011, but there just wasn't room for him.

However, I don't blame Red Bull's "treatment", because they have to carry on with their young driver conveyor belt. It is written into their driver strategy! For example had they kept Alguersuari, we would not have seen either Vergne or Ricciardo in F1, which would have been a loss as well. It is harsh, but Toro Rosso is not meant for making a long career there, i.e drive a 10-year-career in STR only. This would completely stall the driver conveyor.

STR is meant to be used as a platform - you drive 2-3 years and then move to another team. Sort of like once Minardi was - Alonso/Webber were never going to stay all their career in Minardi. Bianchi :( was not going to stay in Marussia all his career either. Not everyone is like Pierluigi Martini. Current Toro Rosso is like a more competitive option of the old days Minardi - as a rookie you get your gig in this team, try to impress, either make or break into another (better) team. Alo, Web, Fisi, Trulli, and others all made it out of Minardi.

But what after those 2-3 years? If not Red Bull, you can still join another team. But sadly it seems there is no place for Vergne - most midfield teams need a paydriver. And that's the tough game of modern F1, which also almost cost Hülkenberg a place in F1 (he was without a race drive in 2011). It would have been great had Vergne got that Williams 3rd driver role. Perhaps he can still get that?

[Tazio]

It would have been great had Vergne got that Williams 3rd driver role. Perhaps he can still get that?


Except The Wolff's

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22800000/Wolfs-alpha-and-omega-22891725-450-333.jpg
have gone spanky, spanky, and she has the Drive! :idea: :D

[Doc Austin]

However, I don't blame Red Bull's "treatment", because they have to carry on with their young driver conveyor belt. It is written into their driver strategy! .... It is harsh, but Toro Rosso is not meant for making a long career there, i.e drive a 10-year-career in STR only. This would completely stall the driver conveyor.

In Vettel's case it meant graduation to the Red Bull team and four championships, so their driver development program paid big dividends.

Here, though, they invested at least four years in Vergne, and now he's gone. Red Bull got nothing out of it, so from a business standpoint it didn't pay off.

If Red Bull is doing this for the sport, their program works well, that is, until there is no room for their protoges to move up into Red Bull. Then they are just out. Sadly there is nowhere for them to go because all but the biggest teams need a driver to bring money. Apparently the Red Bull development program doesn't teach them how to raise funding.



STR is meant to be used as a platform - you drive 2-3 years and then move to another team.

That's great, but there's nowhere to go unless you have a bag full of cash.


It would have been great had Vergne got that Williams 3rd driver role. Perhaps he can still get that?

It would be bad for business to give Toto's wife the boot if you are running a Merc.

[Jag_Warrior]

Susie Wolff's F1 rise is not tokenism – but a triumph over the odds

Whatever method she adopts to gain traction the point remains she wouldn’t be in the car if she were not seriously quick. When Wolff appeared in Friday practice in Germany she closed only a couple of tenths behind Felipe Massa, a veteran of 210 grands prix and 11 race wins.

I'm sitting here trying to decide which is worse: having Pastor "Hit Everything But the Safety Car" Maldonado in the race car or letting Susie "Seriously Quick" Wolff be a make-believe reserve driver? I'm sure that watching him tear up race cars Friday-Sunday (and then blame the wall for hitting him) would make even the Pope take up drinking, but ol' Zipperhead can score points every now & again. But now, with little Susie Quick as the "reserve driver", one has to wonder how much lower that Mercedes engine bill will be next year compared to what everybody else will have to pay? Or do you think Dr. Z is going to make Toto write Williams GP a personal check?

I understand that Williams isn't flush with cash (although next year's check should look pretty nice after they shouldered Ferrari out for 3rd), but how far the mighty have fallen that they have to resort to letting the unaccomplished bed partner of their engine supplier take up a seat that a legit racer could be occupying. I've never been much of a Williams fan, but even to me, this is rather sad.

[jens]

Here, though, they invested at least four years in Vergne, and now he's gone. Red Bull got nothing out of it, so from a business standpoint it didn't pay off.


I guess that's inevitable if you have so many drivers on the books. Between Vettel and Ricciardo also Liuzzi, Buemi, Alguersuari, Vergne and others. Now Kvyat and Verstappen and Sainz are also coming up. Plus others in junior series. If you have so many drivers it is plain impossible for all of them to graduate to Red Bull and some of them inevitably have to "go to waste" in terms of investment.

But I guess this is the cost Red Bull has calculated to be reasonable. In any discipline - if you have a group of 10 sportsmen to train, and one of them wins the world championship, you can be happy that your investment has beared fruit. It is impossible to have 100% success rate, so you are doing well if you win anything. And with Red Bull having Vettel and Ricciardo as two excellent drivers, and potentially Kvyat being good, they have found good drivers to justify their investment.



That's great, but there's nowhere to go unless you have a bag full of cash.


Sadly that's the tough life of modern F1. Sauber - full of paydrivers, Lotus - Maldonado. Force India already has two good drivers, otherwise they could have been an option. After all, Pérez managed to continue his career after dropping out of McLaren. No such luck for Vergne after dropping out of STR.

[Mark]

Not completely unexpected:Toro Rosso confirms Sainz alongside Verstappen (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-confirms-sainz-alongside-verstappen)

Carlos Sainz will be good across the gravel traps I suppose!

[jens]

Carlos Sainz will be good across the gravel traps I suppose!

Also considering the old Verstappen, Jos the Boss, used to be nicknamed as Graveltrappen, it could be a good team-mate battle on the loose stuff, provided the sons have learnt anything from their dads. ;)

[Malbec]

But I guess this is the cost Red Bull has calculated to be reasonable. In any discipline - if you have a group of 10 sportsmen to train, and one of them wins the world championship, you can be happy that your investment has beared fruit. It is impossible to have 100% success rate, so you are doing well if you win anything. And with Red Bull having Vettel and Ricciardo as two excellent drivers, and potentially Kvyat being good, they have found good drivers to justify their investment.

What is interesting is the effect RBR's policy is having on driver salaries.

IMO Alonso did not expect RBR to replace Vettel with yet another STR rookie almost immediately but they did. By doing so RBR saved $10s of millions by not hiring Alonso and also decimated his negotiating position with McLaren as he could not play Woking against Milton Keynes for his services. Alonso will likely be taking a substantial paycut for 2015 because of Kvyat, the alternative would have been hoping for a Caterham seat or sitting out of F1 for a year.

It will be interesting to see the effect of a constant influx of young, fast and talented but low paid F1 drivers will have on the market over the next few years, I reckon RBR is singlehandedly driving down driver salaries across the whole sport (for the talented group, paydrivers are another matter).

[N. Jones]

Carlos Sainz Jr.... Money always talks!

[Tazio]

I guess this is another situation we can blame on Fred!! ;)

http://estaticos04.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/29/en/more_sports/1417290996_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg


Fernando Alonso, Spain's greatest ever Formula 1 driver, spoke of his happiness at hearing the news that Carlos Sainz Jr. had been named as one of Toro Rosso's drivers for next season (http://www.marca.com/en/2014/11/28/en/more_sports/1417206211.html).
"Very few things could make me happier. Both father and son are awesome guys. Ps. even though you still owe me about 24 hours", tweeted the former Ferrari driver.
Carlos Sainz Jr. responded: "Thanks a lot Fernando, for all of your support over the years. Who'd have thought it from this photo, eh?" he wrote alongside the above photo, taken of the two of them several years ago.

[Doc Austin]

Also considering the old Verstappen, Jos the Boss, used to be nicknamed as Graveltrappen,.......

I've heard him called "Yes, we're wreckin' "

Sainz did just dominate his championship and set a record for wins, so he is probably not the most unqualified driver on the grid. With Max at Torro Rosso that will be a fascinating battle. They will probably crash the sh*t out of each other. Should be good fun.

Vergne is trying to put an Indycar deal together and he is talking like he's going to win the championship the first year. Yeah, put him in one of Coyne's sleds and let's see how he makes out. Considering he's never run an oval, and the first one will be Indianapolis, he'de better bring a spare pair of underwear to the speedway every day.

[Doc Austin]

Vergne to race in Formula E’s Punta del Este ePrix (http://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/news/jean-eric-vergne-to-compete-with-andretti-formula-e)

You have to wonder if this ends up being an audition for the Andretti Indycar team.

[kfzmeister]

What is interesting is the effect RBR's policy is having on driver salaries.

IMO Alonso did not expect RBR to replace Vettel with yet another STR rookie almost immediately but they did. By doing so RBR saved $10s of millions by not hiring Alonso and also decimated his negotiating position with McLaren as he could not play Woking against Milton Keynes for his services. Alonso will likely be taking a substantial paycut for 2015 because of Kvyat, the alternative would have been hoping for a Caterham seat or sitting out of F1 for a year.


Sounds to me simply like wishful thinking from someone that doesn't like ALO. Everything that i've read indicates that he will command the highest current salary, once confirmed.
Not sure where you draw your (IM)O from, but that seems to be about what's gonna happen.
We'll have to just come back to that another day...

[Doc Austin]

McLaren could have very easily kept it's current drivers and Alonso would have been totally out in the cold. Where else could he go? He's not going to Sauber and he probably heard all year from Kimmi about the paychecks he had to fight for at Lotus.

Mercedes is set. Red Bull is set. Ferrari is set. Williams is set. Force India is set. Torro Rosso is set. Even Lotus appears set, so what's left outside of Caterham and Marussia?

The only possibility left is McLaren.

Knowing this, Dennis could have used that for leverage, and you can well imagine he would have probably enjoyed it. Why would you pay $40 million for a driver if he has nowhere else to go?

Of course, Honda money might be involved here, but they already have a long relationship with Button. My guess is that Mags is probably out. To me it would make more sense to keep Mags for the future instead of Button for his last hurrah.

Alonso isn't real young in F1 terms either, so driver-wise, McLaren is only planning one or two years ahead. This is in sharp contrast to Red Bull picking up Vettel when he was 12 years old.

[kfzmeister]

You write as if ALO was all of a sudden faced with the fact that Vettel just took his seat. How do you know if this really happened? What if he made his decision to leave Ferrari in September, as he claims, and Ferrari (Mattiacci) then makes Vettel an offer?
Perhaps McLaren already made ALO an offer then?
Doesn't look like he's standing out in the cold to me. Remember that ALO made the announcement to leave. Nobody else. In the meantime everyone else gets fired.
You pay $40 million for a driver, cause you know he's still the best around. Like it, or not.

[Doc Austin]

You pay $40 million for a driver, cause you know he's still the best around. Like it, or not.

Where id I say Alonso wasn't the best in the world and where did I say I didn't like it?

[kfzmeister]

Where id I say Alonso wasn't the best in the world and where did I say I didn't like it?

Would the best in the world really have nowhere to go? Unlikely
I threw the other part in cause it felt right and it seemed to flow :-)

[airshifter]

Would the best in the world really have nowhere to go? Unlikely
I threw the other part in cause it felt right and it seemed to flow :-)

Unlikely that he would have nowhere to go, but if he hasn't locked up a seat it certainly leaves the door open for any team to consider him, not them, in the position of needing a job. Regardless of the budget they have available, Alonso wouldn't know what they could offer in terms of driver salary. For all we know, he might not have any drive yet secured.

It will be interesting to see the sequence of events, if we ever really know. I don't see Alonso as the type to want to sit out a season, and he may have taken a gamble leaving Ferrari before having another seat. With his skill set, it's safe to say that a number of teams would certainly find a way to fund his drive, but are they the team(s) he really wanted to drive for?

[Doc Austin]

Would the best in the world really have nowhere to go? Unlikely


And yet, in 1992, that's what happened to Prost, so it's not like Alonso would be the first.

[Malbec]

Sounds to me simply like wishful thinking from someone that doesn't like ALO. Everything that i've read indicates that he will command the highest current salary, once confirmed.
Not sure where you draw your (IM)O from, but that seems to be about what's gonna happen.
We'll have to just come back to that another day...

I'm one of those guys who thinks that Alonso is the most rounded driver around and albeit by a small margin the best there is. I'm afraid this isn't about his abilities which in my clearly biased mind not in question but about the market place.

Anything is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it, its basic market dynamics. If there is only one seat available thats worth having then the team that has it has the whiphand in negotiations, not the driver. Do you really think Alonso can turn to McLaren and say $40 million or nothing when if McLaren decline him he really does end up with nothing?

[henners88]

What is interesting is the effect RBR's policy is having on driver salaries.

IMO Alonso did not expect RBR to replace Vettel with yet another STR rookie almost immediately but they did. By doing so RBR saved $10s of millions by not hiring Alonso and also decimated his negotiating position with McLaren as he could not play Woking against Milton Keynes for his services. Alonso will likely be taking a substantial paycut for 2015 because of Kvyat, the alternative would have been hoping for a Caterham seat or sitting out of F1 for a year.

It will be interesting to see the effect of a constant influx of young, fast and talented but low paid F1 drivers will have on the market over the next few years, I reckon RBR is singlehandedly driving down driver salaries across the whole sport (for the talented group, paydrivers are another matter).
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. F1 these days is very much about hiring drivers that bring money in rather than hiring drivers that demand higher salaries. I know there was talk that Hamilton would either be taking a cut or remaining on his current salary before he won the Championship, and there were even more options back then. Alonso I feel decided his exit from Ferrari, but I think he did so thinking there were more options at his disposal. Its likely he signed with McLaren some time ago and most likely after Red Bull confirmed their line up. I can't imagine Ron Dennis paying more than he has to for a driver with limited options regardless of his quality. He is arguably the most complete driver on the grid, but there is some great talent at the moment and being the best may not always equate with being the most desirable signing, sadly in this era. Alonso has given Ferrari a lot over the past 5 years and they couldn't deliver their side of the bargain, however at times I can't help but feel his past may have hampered his chances with certain teams. I hope he gets a competitive drive next year as it is us that is being robbed by not seeing this guy fighting for Championships.

Vergne has just been very unlucky. He deserved a better drive and personally I think Red Bull picked the wrong guy to partner Ricciardo, but time will tell and I am sure Kvyat will deliver what is expected.

[Doc Austin]

.........however at times I can't help but feel his past may have hampered his chances with certain teams.

Which makes his going back to McLaren even more surprising.

[Tazio]

I'm one of those guys who thinks that Alonso is the most rounded driver around and albeit by a small margin the best there is. I'm afraid this isn't about his abilities which in my clearly biased mind not in question but about the market place.

Anything is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it, its basic market dynamics. If there is only one seat available thats worth having then the team that has it has the whiphand in negotiations, not the driver. Do you really think Alonso can turn to McLaren and say $40 million or nothing when if McLaren decline him he really does end up with nothing?

Apparently that is what just happened mate. ;)
Not only that, but according to one source Fred has a get out clause, predicated on whether another team will offer him even more frogskins. :eek:


But the salary of roughly €35 million that the Spanish driver will take home will no doubt help heal the wounds. The deal, the biggest ever signed in the history of the sport, is based on 2015 and 2016, with an optional third season. The contract does, however, contain get-out clauses, so that Alonso can leave the team should he receive a more attractive offer.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/12/11/inenglish/1418302404_379086.html
Although this $ amount seems obscene even to me, at least it is good to know that talent is still the most valuable commodity when it comes to choice of pilots in F1 as long as you have the budget.

[N4D13]

Although this $ amount seems obscene even to me, at least it is good to know that talent is still the most valuable commodity when it comes to choice of pilots in F1 as long as you have the budget.
Well, your source is El Pais. So I wouldn't trust that figure, not even a little bit! ;)

[Tazio]

:stareup: How do you feel about the broken biscut? :crazy: ;)


The BBC reported that Alonso’s deal is worth $40 million a year, which would make him the best-paid driver on the grid.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/12/11/sports/ap-car-f1-mclaren-driver-lineup.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

[Doc Austin]

This is interesting: Vergne takes pole in Formula E debut (http://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/news/vergne-takes-pole-in-formula-e-debut)

[Tazio]

Almost won it too mate. I love this series Doc! :)

[Doc Austin]

I figured if the guy was good enough to keep a seat for three years in F1 that he was no slouch. A lot of drivers are finding redemption in Formula E.

Unfortunately, I can't find any of the broadcasts. Maybe they will show up on utube or something.

[Tazio]

Here you go mate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJZS0QhPmhs

[Doc Austin]

Most excellent. Thanks!