The future of Wrc car formula?

[Sladden]

So Citroen has new homologations for next year. What raised my brow is a new paddle shift that they are to introduce. I was under the impression this generation of cars would stay in a more cheap and mechanical spirit. The cars looked really good in the stages...especially in te beginning. Is this a sign of the formula evolving into the last generation of wrc cars again? Boring "cars on rails" with electronic gadgets to decide who is the best driver in the world?

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/november/ds3-3-steps/page/1979--12-12-.html

[BDA Cosworth]

We can only hope that they avoid the active differentials. I quite like them as they are.

[denkimi]

paddles are inevitable. vw wants to promote their dsg system.

[BDA Cosworth]

paddles are inevitable. vw wants to promote their dsg system.

Are they even remotely similar? DSG is a dual clutch system, where as sequential is a single clutch automated dog type box right? (not overly sure)

[lewalcindor]

As of current dual-clutch gearboxes, I believe they are too heavy to be practical for race/rally applications.

[Zeakiwi]

The Targa competition Nissan GTR have some of these dual clutch parts in them.
http://dodsonmotorsport.com/

[COD]

They are again going to wrong direction with the cars. More manual, restrict the suspension travel, get rid of huge spoilers and other aerodynamic parts and make tyres less grippy. That would be the right direction in terms of both safety and making it more spectacular for spectators

[denkimi]

Are they even remotely similar? DSG is a dual clutch system, where as sequential is a single clutch automated dog type box right? (not overly sure)
that doesn't matter because the average buyer doesn't know that. as long as there are paddles on the steering-wheel its good advertisement.



They are again going to wrong direction with the cars. More manual, restrict the suspension travel, get rid of huge spoilers and other aerodynamic parts and make tyres less grippy. That would be the right direction in terms of both safety and making it more spectacular for spectators
why get rid of the huge spoilers? people like extreme cars.

the only thing they need to do is loosen the rules, so we can see more variation.

[Jack4688`]

I'm not a fan of the big spoilers, but they do at least help the current homogenised cars look more interesting in their overall appearance. However my argument for ditching those spoilers would be to look at the ST185 Celica GT-Four WRC, Subaru Impreza 555 and the Delta Integrale Evoluzione. They looked great without huge wings because good looking base cars were used, instead of taking a shopping trolley and forcing it to look extreme.

[COD]

why get rid of the huge spoilers? people like extreme cars.



It's not the looks that I disalike, but what they cause.

First of all, they increase the cornering speeds, thus making the effect of an impact much more dangerous when the drives eventually looses control. You saw how much Latvala in Wales or Neuville in Finland lost time driving without rear spoiler.
Secondly, the big spoilers only work properly when the car is straight, thus reducing sideways action and exitement. Coming back to those two examples above, it sure looked more spectacular without the huge rear wings

[Franky]

I don't know about you, but I enjoy rallying for the challenge that's getting through the stage as fast as possible. If you like people going only sideways, then there is another sport for it

[makinen_fan]

I don't know about you, but I enjoy rallying for the challenge that's getting through the stage as fast as possible. If you like people going only sideways, then there is another sport for it

By reducing the overall grip of the cars it does not mean that the cars will be sideways all the time and rallying will be a drifting competition.
I agree with COD that the sport may benefit from reducing the grip of cars, lets say similar to mid/late 90s levels. Todays cars are way too fast in the corners I think, even for a spectator it is quite hard to comprehend what is going on in front of you (at least with the top 5/6 guys).
Although I cannot see how the technology developments can be undone, especially in suspension and tyres.

[denkimi]

It's not the looks that I disalike, but what they cause.

First of all, they increase the cornering speeds, thus making the effect of an impact much more dangerous when the drives eventually looses control. You saw how much Latvala in Wales or Neuville in Finland lost time driving without rear spoiler.
Secondly, the big spoilers only work properly when the car is straight, thus reducing sideways action and exitement. Coming back to those two examples above, it sure looked more spectacular without the huge rear wings
sideways action is not going to come back. no matter how much grip there is, driving straight will always be the fastest way.

the only way we can make it come back, is by reducing overal grip en increasing power hugely. narrow tyres, old suspension and 1000hp probably would do the trick.
then the drivers with the biggest commitment can make a difference.

but ofcourse that would mean it will become very unsafe again, and will probably kill people.

[Mirek]

Although it's hard to admit the perception of speed for a spectator is a tricky thing. It's very easy to take something very fast for slow or vice versa. Therefore I'm for more spectacle because it's not true that faster is more spectacular. I can imagine that a lot of You disagree with me but if You have a chance go to spectate some race of electric cars. That's the most obvious case of this speed illusion. You can have an electric car setting faster times than the combustion ones but You would fall asleep watching them. If You have a chance go to spectate formula student competition. You can see that cars doing 0-100 km/h in under 3 seconds can be more boring than R2...

[A FONDO]

I don't know about you, but I enjoy rallying for the challenge that's getting through the stage as fast as possible. If you like people going only sideways, then there is another sport for it:up:

[Sladden]

Yeah the grip to Power ration should be altered. Why insist on staying around 300 bhp? This was extreme in the 90s but today many not that sporty road cars have similiar power. And its not like Group B cars were that fast around corners. I Think stage records were already beaten by the early 90s Gr A cars.
Today speeds are much higher in corners and cars are much safer. So a move to reduce grip and increase power would not automatically result in more danger but rather "Active" driving and better show right?

[COD]

but ofcourse that would mean it will become very unsafe again, and will probably kill people.

What is unsafe for the drivers especially nowdays, is that the cornering speeds have increased. That means that when an accident happens, it is from a higher speed. Reducing grip and probably even more power would actually make cars safer.
The problem in gr.B was not so much the power, but the construction of light materials and high probability for fire. But even those cars started to have big wings, which thankfully disappeared for gr.A but have unfortunatelly returned to WRC

[Sulland]

The other way to restrict cornering speed is to put a limit on how soft the tires are allowed to be. Especially on asfalt, but also on gravel.
if you put in a shore limit, for cold and warm tires, that is easy to measure!

Tire costs will also go down, when tires will be harder and last more SS km.

[denkimi]

What is unsafe for the drivers especially nowdays, is that the cornering speeds have increased. That means that when an accident happens, it is from a higher speed. Reducing grip and probably even more power would actually make cars safer.
The problem in gr.B was not so much the power, but the construction of light materials and high probability for fire. But even those cars started to have big wings, which thankfully disappeared for gr.A but have unfortunatelly returned to WRC
thats correct. but if they become more powerfull, corners that are taken now flatout at lets say 120km/h will no longer be flatout at 160km/h.

corners that now braking will become slower and thus safer, but the already dangerous flatout areas will be more dangerous.

[OldF]

The ”problem” with WRC cars (both current & previous) is that as much as possible of the weight is between the axles. Fuel tank & spare wheel in front of the rear axle, engine tilted backwards as much it’s possible by regulations.

Placing the spare wheel behind the rear axle and the fuel tank above or behind (maybe not a good idea for safety reason) the rear axle would make the cars more like throwing a hammer handle first around a corner.

With more power and less grip the cars would be more aggressive out of corners.

[Mirek]

More weight behind rear axle really isn't good idea for safety. Not only in case of crash but also for a lot harder correction of sudden unwanted oversteering. I don't know how it's in other countries but here in CZ most of serious accidents happened due to hi-speed oversteer after bad rebound of rear axle, some dirt on the road etc. Maybe we have here somebody with driving experience with Porsches. I bet those must be wicked cars due to the weight behind rear axle combined with RWD.

Actually more natural understeer may be better for spectacle in my opinion. Nose heavy cars just don't turn so they need some powerslides or handbrake turns to do the job.

[OldF]

Eeeh, the hammer wasn’t the best comparison. What I had in my mind was the group A cars when the drivers had to do some more to turn the car (Nordic flick) than just turning the steering wheel. This doesn’t mean that I wish the return of the group A format.

Off topic but….

Unfortunately I don’t have any experience from a Porsche but from VW 1600 Variant I have because my father had one in the beginning of the 70’s. I don’t remember was it the first or second winter I had my driver licence when I arrived to a wide 90 degree bend and I decided to try a little bit of sliding because there wasn’t any behind me and no one coming from the opposite direction. I pushed the throttle little too long and suddenly the front was pointing to the direction from where I was coming from.

The other one was more serious. It was an asphalt right in the spring and probably there was still some gravel on the road from the gravelling of the road during the winter. I came to the bend too fast and the suddenly the front was pointing to a field that was about one meter lower than the road. Due to the rebound (the Nordic flick ;)) the car turned the other way and hit a bank with front first. From there it bounced back and hit the same bank with the rear. OMG I was lucky that the car didn’t had any major damages because I think my father wouldn’t allowed me to drive it anymore.

Youth experiences

[Sladden]

Right!

[Sladden]

What did we learn from Monte Carlo in this regard!?

Seems like all teams have paddle shifters on their latest models. Maybe not Huyndai because their update comes later? But the camera angles did not reveal much on the driver updates.

[Allyc85]

So we were meant to hear about the new rules at the turn of the year, and now we are well into March? Any rumours/news of when we will hear something?