2014 Brazilian Grand Prix Thread

[steveaki13]

So with just a one week gap until Brazil, I guess its time for the thread. In many ways its the last round of the season as Abu Dhabi surely doesn't count with double points :confused::mad:

Anyway its always one of my favourite races of the season and we should see an interesting tussle between the Mercedes drivers. This is key for the Championship. As despite the final round and double points, Rosberg really needs a win and Hamilton to finish down the field.



1
Lewis Hamilton
Mercedes
316


2
Nico Rosberg
Mercedes
292


3
Daniel Ricciardo
Red Bull
214


4
Valterri Bottas
Williams
155


5
Sebastian Vettel
Red Bull
149


6
Fernando Alonso
Ferrari
149


7
Jenson Button
Mclaren
94


8
Felipe Massa
Williams
83


9
Nico Hulkenberg
Force India
76


10
Kevin Magnussen
Mclaren
53


11
Sergio Perez
Force India
47


12
Kimi Raikkonen
Ferrari
47


13
Jean Eric Vergne
Toro Rosso
23


14
Romain Grosjean
Lotus
8


15
Dani Kyvat
Toro Rosso
8


16
Jules Bianchi
Marussia
2


17
Pastor Maldonado
Lotus
1


18
Adrian Sutil
Sauber
0


19
Marcus Ericcson
Caterham
0


20
Esteban Gutierrez
Sauber
0


21
Max Chilton
Marussia
0


22
Kamui Kobayashi
Caterham
0


23
Andre Lotterer
Caterham
0





1
Mercedes
608


2
Red Bull
363


3
Williams
238


4
Ferrari
196


5
Mclaren
147


6
Force India
123


7
Toro Rosso
31


8
Lotus
9


9
Marussia
2


10
Sauber
0


11
Caterham
0



So as discussed elsewhere Lewis Hamilton can win in Brazil and with Rosberg retiring he would still only be 49 points ahead.

2014 Brazilian GP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Aut%C3%B3dromo_Jos%C3%A9_Carlos_Pace_%28AKA_Interl agos%29_track_map.svg/1024px-Aut%C3%B3dromo_Jos%C3%A9_Carlos_Pace_%28AKA_Interl agos%29_track_map.svg.png


71 Laps

Lap Record: 1:11:473 - Juan Pablo Montoya - Williams - 2004

Session Times - Local & (Uk -Sorry :vampire:)

FP1: 10:00-11:30 - (12:00 - 13:30)
FP 2: 14:00-15:30 -(16:00-17:30)

FP3: 11:00-12:00 - (13:00-14:00)
Quali: 14:00 - (16:00)

Race: 14:00 - (16:00)


Previous Winners since 1990

1990: Alain Prost - Ferrari
1991: Ayrton Senna - Mclaren
1992: Nigel Mansell - Williams
1993: Ayrton Senna - Mclaren
1994: Michael Schumacher - Benetton
1995: Michael Schumacher - Benetton
1996: Damon Hill - Williams
1997: Jacques Villeneuve - Williams
1998: Mika Hakkinen - Mclaren
1999: Mika Hakkinen - Mclaren
2000: Michael Schumacher - Ferrari
2001: David Coulthard - Mclaren
2002: Michael Schumacher - Ferrari
2003: Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
2004: Juan Pablo Montoya - Williams
2005: Juan Pablo Montoya - Mclaren
2006: Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2007: Kimi Raikkonen - Ferrari
2008: Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2009: Mark Webber - Red Bull
2010: Sebastian Vettel - Red Bull
2011: Mark Webber - Red Bull
2012: Jenson Button - Mclaren
2013: Sebastian Vettel - Red Bull

Multiple Winners

Alain Prost - 6 wins
Michael Schumacher - 4 wins
Carlos Reutemann - 3 wins (4)
Emerson Fittipaldi - 2 wins
Nelson Piquet - 2 wins
Nigel Mansell - 2 wins
Ayrton Senna - 2 wins
Mika Hakkinen - 2 wins
Juan Montoya - 2 wins
Felipe Massa - 2 wins
Sebastian Vettel - 2 wins
Mark Webber - 2 wins



Mclaren - 12 wins
Ferrari - 10 wins
Williams - 6 wins
Red Bull - 4 wins
Brabham - 2 wins (3)
Benetton - 2 wins
Renault - 2 wins

* Interesting to note that Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso have never won a Brazilian GP.


So there we go guys. A long enough preview and after a season of doing them I am glad I only have one to go for a while. :p

[Mark]

Brazil is a favourite of mine too. Mostly because it's a proper traditional F1 track. Not like these new places which have no soul.

Hamilton likes it of course as this is where he win his championship.

[Storm]

Same here...great track, usually a good race, this time though I am hoping it stays dry...Massa likely hates this track now for the same reason Mark :p:

[Duncan]

Likewise. Love this track. Maybe a first win here for Lewis?

[N. Jones]

So.... my guess is that the only way Hamilton can win the title here is if he wins and Rosberg scores nothing, thanks to the double points at UAE??

[The Black Knight]

So.... my guess is that the only way Hamilton can win the title here is if he wins and Rosberg scores nothing, thanks to the double points at UAE??

Hamilton can't win the title in Brazil. Even if he wins and Rosberg fails to finish or score points in Brazil - Hamilton can still lose the title in AD if he fails to finish or score points in AD and Rosberg wins. That would hand Rosberg the title by one point. The whole double points system is a farce to be honest and I think it will hurt F1 if Rosberg wins the championship due to it. If Hamilton increases his championship lead this weekend the only way for Rosberg to be champion then would be down to double points.

Oddly enough if F1 had implemented what Bernie wanted - double points in the last 4 races, then Hamilton would only have needed to win in Brazil to secure his second title.

[Doc Austin]

Hell, why not make them all double points?

[Storm]

steve will tell us how the title would have looked in that case ;)

[steveaki13]

As is always the case in Brazil, there is a threat of rain throughout the weekend.

That might spice things up a bit.

[The Black Knight]

It's a shame in a way that we are potentially being denied another title deciding showdown in Brazil due to the retarded double points rule. It really makes no difference whatsoever as to what happens in this race. From Hamilton's perspective, if he finishes second, it make absolutely no realistic difference to his title chances opposed to should he finish in first. It's a real pity that a great race like Brazil is pretty much reduced to nothing of importance due to the Abu Double.

[zako85]

Big thanks to Bernie not only for awarding double points to the final race, but also for awarding them to the F1 fans' favorite race track of all times.

[truefan72]

and juncadella proving why he is far from ready for F1
red flag

[CHAO5]

Enjoying FP1 just now

[longisland]

Congrats to Nico. The first pole trophy winner.

[N4D13]

Does anyone know why Massa was looking so downbeat after quali? I can imagine that he wanted to take pole, but that strikes me as somewhat unrealistic. P3 behind the Mercs is probably the best he could get today.

[truefan72]

eh, i am happy with p2

we shall see, the race is a different matter, and rain can play a part
Let Hamilton continue to take the Valentino rossi approach to racing .stalk rosberg for half the race, overtake and the pull away.
that is what i am hoping for

[truefan72]

here we go again with hill and herbert and their paralysis by analysis, trying to figure out what is wrong with hamilton, nevermind that he finished .030 behind rosberg.
and still is p2 and the race is still come come

oh well

[journeyman racer]

Well, well, well. Previous to this season. Despite being swamped Vettel's success, and the authority of Alonso's results at Ferrari (which have affirmed his status as the outright best driver in the world), the Hamilton minions (hehehe) always comforted themselves by saying Hamilton was the fastest driver, possibly sharing the title with Vettel, but he just never quite had "the best car".

Well, today's qualifying means at the end of this season, at worst, Rosberg would've comprehensively out-qualified Hamilton 11-8. But it's not definite it'll be that, it's still likely to be 12-7 after ADGP qualifying!

Just think, so far it's 11-7

Let's face it, Rosberg has been stiff this season. To have out-qualified Hamilton so often, and not have the races go his way.

I just wonder of the factors are at play, that we're not aware of? Aside from the politics, which seem to favour Hamilton, could it be that the senior engineers hired to work for Hamilton are better than Rosberg's? That's why Hamilton have such an impressive race results record this season? I mean, previous to this year, Hamilton would never win races by stealth, like he has this year. Normally, on the specific days, the car would be hooked up, and Hamilton would blast out in front and lead. What has happened in recent races is not what Hamilton is

Remember at America, Hamilton led the timesheets all weekend, only for Rosberg to bang in the banzai lap in q3. Considering Vettel's form this year, which has proven his exaggerated career results to be just that. Rosberg is now, clearly, the fastest driver in the world atm, despite how unfashionable that will sound. Will the F1 historians acknowledge this fact? Will the Hamilton underlings acknowledge this fact, even if it's begrudgingly? 11-7

I don't know, something very suss here.

[Warriwa]

Hamilton is not pushing as hard as Rosberg in Quali IMO. He knows he can overtake him during the race, so why risk putting it in the wall. He has plenty in the bag.

[Tazio]

Let's face it, Queue the cheat, cheating, cheater rebuttal. :angel:

[truefan72]

Well, well, well. Previous to this season. Despite being swamped Vettel's success, and the authority of Alonso's results at Ferrari (which have affirmed his status as the outright best driver in the world), the Hamilton minions (hehehe) always comforted themselves by saying Hamilton was the fastest driver, possibly sharing the title with Vettel, but he just never quite had "the best car".

Well, today's qualifying means at the end of this season, at worst, Rosberg would've comprehensively out-qualified Hamilton 11-8. But it's not definite it'll be that, it's still likely to be 12-7 after ADGP qualifying!

Just think, so far it's 11-7

Let's face it, Rosberg has been stiff this season. To have out-qualified Hamilton so often, and not have the races go his way.

I just wonder of the factors are at play, that we're not aware of? Aside from the politics, which seem to favour Hamilton, could it be that the senior engineers hired to work for Hamilton are better than Rosberg's? That's why Hamilton have such an impressive race results record this season? I mean, previous to this year, Hamilton would never win races by stealth, like he has this year. Normally, on the specific days, the car would be hooked up, and Hamilton would blast out in front and lead. What has happened in recent races is not what Hamilton is

Remember at America, Hamilton led the timesheets all weekend, only for Rosberg to bang in the banzai lap in q3. Considering Vettel's form this year, which has proven his exaggerated career results to be just that. Rosberg is now, clearly, the fastest driver in the world atm, despite how unfashionable that will sound. Will the F1 historians acknowledge this fact? Will the Hamilton underlings acknowledge this fact, even if it's begrudgingly? 11-7

I don't know, something very suss here.

this is by far the most dubious post i've read since the days of st.devote?
btw is that you?

[Tazio]

Can't be St Devote (every ones fav member especially Tamb') JR doesn't go on and on, getting all orgasmic over "Jense" ;)

[The Black Knight]

Haha it's hilarious how threatened some people on this forum are.

Anyway, back to today's qualifying, Lewis and Nico have been very level in qualifying this year. Two mistakes by Lewis (Britain and Austria, fire in Hungary, brake failure in Germany and Rosberg cheating in Monaco (which Brundle said on commentary yesterday he now believes Nico did on purpose) have all cost Lewis in qualifying. If you really look at it they have been pretty much on the same level all year. It's no big conspiracy & reallynot a big deal that Hamilton lost the qualifying trophy. I doubt he is going to lose any sleep over it.

[airshifter]

Well, well, well. Previous to this season. Despite being swamped Vettel's success, and the authority of Alonso's results at Ferrari (which have affirmed his status as the outright best driver in the world), the Hamilton minions (hehehe) always comforted themselves by saying Hamilton was the fastest driver, possibly sharing the title with Vettel, but he just never quite had "the best car".

Well, today's qualifying means at the end of this season, at worst, Rosberg would've comprehensively out-qualified Hamilton 11-8. But it's not definite it'll be that, it's still likely to be 12-7 after ADGP qualifying!

Just think, so far it's 11-7

Let's face it, Rosberg has been stiff this season. To have out-qualified Hamilton so often, and not have the races go his way.

I just wonder of the factors are at play, that we're not aware of? Aside from the politics, which seem to favour Hamilton, could it be that the senior engineers hired to work for Hamilton are better than Rosberg's? That's why Hamilton have such an impressive race results record this season? I mean, previous to this year, Hamilton would never win races by stealth, like he has this year. Normally, on the specific days, the car would be hooked up, and Hamilton would blast out in front and lead. What has happened in recent races is not what Hamilton is

Remember at America, Hamilton led the timesheets all weekend, only for Rosberg to bang in the banzai lap in q3. Considering Vettel's form this year, which has proven his exaggerated career results to be just that. Rosberg is now, clearly, the fastest driver in the world atm, despite how unfashionable that will sound. Will the F1 historians acknowledge this fact? Will the Hamilton underlings acknowledge this fact, even if it's begrudgingly? 11-7

I don't know, something very suss here.


And how many points does qualification give a driver? :laugh:


From a haters perspective, Rosberg is a better driver as he had done better in qually. Over a race distance, Lewis has got the better of him with 10 wins to only 4 wins for Nico. Which statistic matters more, and who leads the title standings?

Nico is still in the title fight, but really the Abu double is about the only thing keeping him there. He has done well this season and may yet pull it off. But I'd suspect that being a Hamilton hater could well end up in tears for you this year. It's not him that has to turn the tide, and a pole positions battle isn't the deciding factor in the WDC.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Haha it's hilarious how threatened some people on this forum are.

Anyway, back to today's qualifying, Lewis and Nico have been very level in qualifying this year. Two mistakes by Lewis (Britain and Austria, fire in Hungary, brake failure in Germany and Rosberg cheating in Monaco (which Brundle said on commentary yesterday he now believes Nico did on purpose) have all cost Lewis in qualifying. If you really look at it they have been pretty much on the same level all year. It's no big conspiracy & reallynot a big deal that Hamilton lost the qualifying trophy. I doubt he is going to lose any sleep over it.

Well, you seem one of the threatened people, if this post is anything to go by. I can't believe that people still perpetuate the 'cheating in Monaco' theory. The move was cleared by the stewards as a normal driver's mistake and looking at how hard Mercedes came down on Rosberg after Spa for what the stewards did not even deem worthy of an investigation as it was a normal racing incident, do you really think they would have let him get away with outright cheating their golden boy out of pole position in Monaco?

The politic shambles within the Merc team are rather ridiculous this year. It's been rather obvious that the 'Shambolic Three' - Lauda, Wolff and Lowe - are desperate to see Lewis win the title or they'll be in hot waters with the board of directors (which includes two mucho communistical trade union leaders), as they would have to answer rather uncomfortable questions as to why they pay Lewis gobs of money if Rosberg could do the same for a fraction of the salary.
Since Spa Rosberg hasn't been the same. The only thing known about the 'undisclosed disciplinary measures' they imposed on him are a hefty fine and the order to chuck a race, which he did at Monza, obvious enough to cause speculation. What ever else they whacked him with, it's obvious that he's not been the same since then, basically rolling over for Lewis or outbraking himself. And there's the 'invisible contaminant' of course.

It's too bad - Merc has two fantastic racers. They should have just let them run their races without meddling.

[CHAO5]

Not too long to go now and I think this race will be a classic. Anybody got any weather forecasts?

[zako85]

My preferred outcome of this GP: the Mercedes cars take each other out and continue from the back while licking their woulds. Massa wins. Brazil declares a national holiday.

[journeyman racer]

lol some of you!

If it's taken Martin Brundle six months to decide Rosberg "cheated" during Monaco qualifying. The it's one or a combination of

- The incident is so insignificant, you cannot be certain to claim it to be anything more than benefit of the doubt. (Which I assume reasonable fans think)

- He's talking to his "audience"

- He's been commentating to long, and it's time to move on.

- He's a idiot.

[journeyman racer]

The politic shambles within the Merc team are rather ridiculous this year. It's been rather obvious that the 'Shambolic Three' - Lauda, Wolff and Lowe - are desperate to see Lewis win the title or they'll be in hot waters with the board of directors (which includes two mucho communistical trade union leaders), Forget the F1 stuff. I'm interested to know more about the MB hierarchy?


as they would have to answer rather uncomfortable questions as to why they pay Lewis gobs of money if Rosberg could do the same for a fraction of the salary.
If the MB BoD is a hardened as you make out they are, then there should be some difficult questions asked anyway. If MB had replaced Hamilton for a reasonable driver at $1m pay, they'd still be WCC and 1-2 in the WDC.

Is there anything other than your word to claim Lauda, Wolff and Lowe are as desperate for Hamilton to win, as you say they are?

[steveaki13]

I have to be out while the race is on......damn

So I will be watching a hour or so delayed.

Thus won't have the company of you guys.

Enjoy the race

[Tazio]

Tip o' the morning dawgs! Catch you later Steve!!

[donKey jote]

Morning gurlz :andrea:

[Tazio]

Top o' the morning dawgs! Catch you later Steve!!

[donKey jote]

Why am I even getting ready to watch this :confused:

:p

[Tazio]

Come on Donks it will be fun!! :angel:

[donKey jote]

I say the ferraris get lapped :devil:

[Tazio]

Terrible start from RB

[Tazio]

I predict Fred has a failure before it is over!

[donKey jote]

What's this, 5 pit strategies?

[donKey jote]

Massa donkey :andrea:

[Tazio]

Fred is dead meat!

[Tazio]

Come on Slash!!

[donKey jote]

Bottas gets the Williams screw :p

[Tazio]

The Boss spins out :eek:

[tjoepie]

Anyone else who was expecting Hamilton to do that?

[donKey jote]

Stoopid no gravel traps :devil:

[donKey jote]

Kimi gets the Ferrari screw :devil:

[Tazio]

The saboteurs get Kimi :angel:

[Tazio]

Danny Boy :wave:

[donKey jote]

Nice Finn on Finn action :andrea:

[Tazio]

Bottas is stinking the place out!

[donKey jote]

Mag gets mugged :D

[Tazio]

Nice move by fred!

[N. Jones]

Haven't used F1's live timing and scoring app in a while. When did it stop auto refreshing?

[donKey jote]

Felipe donkey :p

[Tazio]

Haven't used F1's live timing and scoring app in a while. When did it stop auto refreshing?
Don't have it mate, I'm too cheap.

[Tazio]

Kimi is going for the distance!

[Tazio]

Kimi going off the cliff!

[donKey jote]

Nice teamwork by Kimi :p

[donKey jote]

Meanwhile vet and but cruise safely ahead of the ferraris :dozey:

[donKey jote]

Come on kimster,you can do it !!

[Tazio]

:wave:

[longisland]

Great stuff from Ferrari. Fred is not faster for the first time

[Tazio]

Then why did he whup kimi? :stareup:

[donKey jote]

Ex-team orders ? :andrea: :p

[Mark]

Interesting then. Hamilton would have won but for his own mistake. Back in the day he would have gotten a DNF for that not second.

[Tazio]

Is Piquet drunk, or just a horn-dog, he wants to talk about Nicole! :p:!

[truefan72]

well, well,
first off congrats rosberg
but the hamilton error cost him victory, but I'll take 2nd
on to the finale!

[The Black Knight]

Congrats to the Nico. He finally beat Hamilton without actually cheating. Hamilton can go into Abu Dhabi now knowing that he only needs to come second to wrap up the title. In the end it was Hamilton's fault to lose the race. It was his own fault.

Congrats to Piquet for being the stupidest podium interviewer of the year as well. Worse than Eddie Jordan even.

[tjoepie]

Congrats to the Nico. He finally beat Hamilton without actually cheating. Hamilton can go into Abu Dhabi now knowing that he only needs to come second to wrap up the title. In the end it was Hamilton's fault to lose the race. It was his own fault.

Congrats to Piquet for being the stupidest podium interviewer of the year as well. Worse than Eddie Jordan even.

Pretty sure it's the seventh time, given Rosberg has beaten Hamilton seven times this season and has yet to cheat.

[kfzmeister]

Meanwhile vet and but cruise safely ahead of the ferraris :dozey:

Yeah, me thinks that McLaren's recent race form might give ALO some hope for next year :-)

[The Black Knight]

Pretty sure it's the seventh time, given Rosberg has beaten Hamilton seven times this season and has yet to cheat.

Nah it's the first time he has beaten him from start to finish this season when they have started first and second where he didn't cheat.

Anyway, if I were Hamilton I'd be happy out with this result. A second place in Abu Dhabi secures him a well deserved 2nd title.

Let us hope no mechanical failures or stupid bonzai meneuvres from anyone at the start of the race or double points don't decide the title in Abu Dhabi.

[The Black Knight]

Nelson Piquet has always been a dick but his podium interviews were laughable today. No wonder Lewis walked off and Nico reacted like this:

https://gfycat.com/DistantSinfulAlbacoretuna

[steveaki13]

Just caught up with the race.

It was a decent race but not a classic.

Lewis made a very silly error and really should have been out of the race. Can't make those mistakes and not be questioned.

Rosberg was awesome today. Although Hamilton caught him, he made no mistakes and was faultless well done.


As for Piquet on the podium, that was embarrassing. Considering he was snogging Lauda earlier on I guess he had too much booze or was high on being in Brazil

[A FONDO]

Lewis made a very silly error and really should have been out of the race. Can't make those mistakes and not be questioned.


Hamilton admitted he was taken by surprise when his race engineer told him to stay out for two laps after Rosberg’s second pit stop. It was on the second lap that he spun.

“The protocol is – it has been, at least for some time – when he says to push that means generally I’m coming in that lap,” Hamilton explained. “So I want to maximise, which I did, and then I wasn’t coming in.”

“So it took me a little bit by surprise and the rear tyres were dead at the end of that one lap that I did.”

[N. Jones]

Why do the NBCSN guys keep mentioning the double points? They talk as if only the winner gets double points. Lying to bring in viewers in BS!

[steveaki13]

The double points could still have a major impact.

The gap is 17 points. Had it been a proper race then a Rosberg win leaves Hamilton needing a 6th only.

Now he has to finish 2nd, which in a Mercedes is likely, but a incident or starting from the back leaves it unlikely

[journeyman racer]

Pretty sure it's the seventh time, given Rosberg has beaten Hamilton seven times this season and has yet to cheat.
TBK needs a contentious moment to hang on to, so he can comfort himself by diminishing Rosberg and continue to embellish Hamilton, if ever the reality of Rosberg winning this year's title occurred.

[journeyman racer]

The double points could still have a major impact.

The gap is 17 points. Had it been a proper race then a Rosberg win leaves Hamilton needing a 6th only.

Now he has to finish 2nd, which in a Mercedes is likely, but a incident or starting from the back leaves it unlikely
It'll be interesting to note the change in psychology. Because despite the superior MB performance, there's a difference between knowing you'll finish 2nd at worst on a "bad" day, and having to finish at least 2nd no matter what.

In effect, it's a one race c'ship now. But I liken Hamilton's situation to a two-leg cup tie. Hamilton's won the first, home leg 1-0. But now has to ensure at least a 0-0 draw in the away second leg. With the benefit of knowing he has the advantage of away goals, if there's any scoring to occur. Whereas Rosberg has to come up with a really big win to take the title.

[airshifter]

TBK needs a contentious moment to hang on to, so he can comfort himself by diminishing Rosberg and continue to embellish Hamilton, if ever the reality of Rosberg winning this year's title occurred.

Grab a mirror, and you'll find someone doing exactly the opposite, diminishing Hamilton at any chance you get. With a sig like that, it's hard to even pretend that it's not the case. For every hater there is a fanboi to counter them. :laugh:




Overall a good race. Nico held up under pressure and the off by Lewis probably cost him his shot at the win. Lucky for him there was plenty of run off area, and lucky for Nico that Hamilton slid off like that. But great racing by both drivers.

Felipe stayed fairly solid, and it was great to see him on the podium. Shame about the pit lane speeding incident, but it happens to the best of them. At least he still got his podium and appreciation from his home crowd.

Strange strategy from Kimi, but it seems to have worked really well for him. I'm still wondering if the radio order came or if he just gave up to Fred since his tires were gone. For all the hassling he gave Fred, the pass just seemed too easy.

Jenson quietly gets another good finish. He seems good at doing that without a lot of drama. Seb did the same for the most part, other than when he got punked near the start.

Not a great day for Bottas. I'm still wondering what happened with the belt issue. But overall he's had a very good season, so a single bad day isn't a terrible thing.



With our resident fanbois and haters, the Abu Dhabi double is sure to bring some tears no matter what the results. That alone will make the double points stupidity worth it! :)

[journeyman racer]

Grab a mirror, and you'll find someone doing exactly the opposite, diminishing Hamilton at any chance you get. With a sig like that, it's hard to even pretend that it's not the case. For every hater there is a fanboi to counter them. :laugh:

Orly??? Clearly, you don't go on the Motorsport History board. The sig is there because of all the sooking about Hamilton having more mechanical trouble than Rosberg. Does a Hamilton "hater" say this?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?34755-Moral-Championship-Standings&p=1018161&viewfull=1#post1018161


Personally? I don't think Massa has the quality of Hamilton. So I'm ok with Hamilton claiming the title, if Massa is the alternative.

:o:o:o

[journeyman racer]

Yeah! Go and shift that air!

[The Black Knight]

Grab a mirror, and you'll find someone doing exactly the opposite, diminishing Hamilton at any chance you get. With a sig like that, it's hard to even pretend that it's not the case. For every hater there is a fanboi to counter them. :laugh:



It's okay, I'm really not that much of a Hamilton fanboi. At the end of the day, whether Hamilton wins the title or Rosberg does has not got any impact on my life. I'd find it unjust if he didn't win the title given the performances he has put in and that Nico cheated twice and got away with it but at the end of the day life isn't always fair but at least Hamilton would have kept his class throughout the competition whether he wins or loses. That's all I want from the sport, is a champion that wins without cheating, drives balls to the wall and keeps their class.

I do find it amusing the way some people on this forums bite every time you lay bait out for them though which is what keeps me coming back all the time ;)

[Doc Austin]

That's all I want from the sport, is a champion that wins without cheating, drives balls to the wall and keeps their class.

That's what we've had for the last four years and the complaining about his dominance has been deafening. I thought it was getting old too, but at least Vettel wasn't chopping blocking swerving and otherwise cheating. I don't know what more you could ask from a champion, but a lot of people still weren't happy about it.

[Tazio]

I'm still wondering if the radio order came or if he just gave up to Fred since his tires were gone. For all the hassling he gave Fred, the pass just seemed too easy. Kimi defended really well for a while, but his tire were gone. I think Fred earned that pass after backing off and recharging his batteries. This was the kind of fight we were expecting before the season started, not 17-1 in favor of Zo!

[dj_bytedisaster]

That's what we've had for the last four years and the complaining about his dominance has been deafening. I thought it was getting old too, but at least Vettel wasn't chopping blocking swerving and otherwise cheating. I don't know what more you could ask from a champion, but a lot of people still weren't happy about it.

The problem is that he has the wrong passport. It sounds like a cliché, but it's unfortunately true. He's been getting a lot of flak from two factions. First the Tifosi, because they hate everyone who doesn't wear a red overall. They'll love him from next year on. And the second faction are mainly Brits, because for some reason they can't handle being beaten by Germans. I want to point out that there are some who can handle it with grace, but if you read the comment sections on the BBC websites or the Guardian, you'd thought Vettel had a habit of molesting children. Some of the stuff written there was just awful.
I've been wotking for TJ13 for close to two years now and suffice to say, I'm the only Vettel supporter on the team. Earlier this year, when Hamilton started winning, access numbers from Blighty shot through the roof and we had an influx of Hamilton fanbois, who absolutely poisoned the atmosphere, trying to blackmail everyone into praising Hamilton. They go as far as accusing people of racism if they dare criticize HIM. The stuff they write about Vettel and Rosberg makes you think the two of them celebrate dark masses in the night, sacrificing virgins or something. We have our very own F1 hools over here - Tambo, Gary and others. This football hooligan mindset, which makes people automatically hate everyone but their favourite team/driver is just ridiculous.

[journeyman racer]

Nobody likes Germans because when they're quoted and asked a legitimate question, they never provide an answer.

[journeyman racer]

For those criticising Rosberg because he's won so many fewer races than Hamilton. He's only trying to emulate his father in claiming a c'ship by winning half as many races the guy who won the most that year.

[zako85]

Indeed, even if Rosberg does not win a championship, his influence on the world of F1 racing will be incredible because he raised everyone's awareness about Keke Rosberg. I mean this seriously. If not for Nico, I would have never even heard about Keke. I don't know about the others, but when Keke Rosberg won a championship I was probably learning to catch grasshoppers in a kindergarten backyard.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Indeed, even if Rosberg does not win a championship, his influence on the world of F1 racing will be incredible because he raised everyone's awareness about Keke Rosberg. I mean this seriously. If not for Nico, I would have never even heard about Keke. I don't know about the others, but when Keke Rosberg won a championship I was probably learning to catch grasshoppers in a kindergarten backyard.

I like Keke. After his F1 career he raced touring cars in DTM and he was the first co-commentator when live F1 broadcasting started on German TV in 1991. He's hilarious. He's often maligned for his 1982 win, but what people forget is that in 1981 and 1982 he was often the only one, who took the fight to the turbo powered cars with a naturally aspirated engine with as much as up to 100bhp power disadvantage. Keke was everything but a fluke. In any other period of F1, with stable regulations, I'd say he would have won more than one championship.

[N. Jones]

Wait..... how did Nico Rosberg cheat this season?

[denkimi]

Wait..... how did Nico Rosberg cheat this season?
only hamilton-fanboys know. TBK will tell you all about it.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wait..... how did Nico Rosberg cheat this season?

He finished in front on Lewis at least once - that is proof enough for some of the more rabid Hamilton ultras.

Standard answer you'll get is Monaco. The fact that the Stewards looked into the telemetry and deemed Nico's mishap a normal drivers error doesn't make a difference. They'll insist it was deliberate.

[Doc Austin]

And the second faction are mainly Brits, because for some reason they can't handle being beaten by Germans.

Sometimes I think WWII is still going on, only with cars.


They go as far as accusing people of racism if they dare criticize HIM.

We see it every day in the US. God forbid that you ever say anything bad about "president," or his policies. You are automatically called a "racist."


This football hooligan mindset, which makes people automatically hate everyone but their favourite team/driver is just ridiculous.

Oh, you should have seen some of the cart/IRL arguments. Hate doesn't really even begin to cover it.

Damm, this wasn't a very cheery post, was it?

[steveaki13]

No you all sound miserable :D

Glad Nico won this race, sets up a fantastic final race for the Championship

Lets hope it doesn't end like Senna v Prost

[journeyman racer]

No you all sound miserable :D

Glad Nico won this race, sets up a fantastic final race for the Championship
But he's German?

[journeyman racer]

Indeed, even if Rosberg does not win a championship, his influence on the world of F1 racing will be incredible because he raised everyone's awareness about Keke Rosberg. I mean this seriously. If not for Nico, I would have never even heard about Keke. I don't know about the others, but when Keke Rosberg won a championship I was probably learning to catch grasshoppers in a kindergarten backyard.
Are you being serious? :confused:


Hold a significant place in Australian sporting history, and Australian motorsport fans in particular. Winning the first Australian GP (F1WC)

[The Black Knight]

That's what we've had for the last four years and the complaining about his dominance has been deafening. I thought it was getting old too, but at least Vettel wasn't chopping blocking swerving and otherwise cheating. I don't know what more you could ask from a champion, but a lot of people still weren't happy about it.

I'd probably be okay with one driver dominating if that driver was really that good. For example, we all know that Schumacher was an exceptional talent that perhaps comes along once per generation. Vettel wasn't and is not this good and the truth is his inability to admit he is wrong over anything just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Saying that, he's not the worst of them either and I'd rather he be champion again this year than Rosberg.

The great thing about this year is that while we have one team dominating the sport, we have two quality very closely matched drivers whom are battling it out at the front in the same car - you don't see that very often. At the start of the year I was relishing this battle and how it was going to pan out. Unfortunately though, Rosberg went along and cheated in Monaco and in Spa.

The really disappointing thing about it is that he didn't have to do any of these things. He does have the ability to take it to Hamilton without resorting to such antics. I don't think he has the ability to beat him over the course of the season but on any one day he can be just as quick.

He was clearly faster at Spa than Hamilton was at the start of the race so he probably would have got him on the next lap - he didn't have to swipe his front wing off Hamilton's tire.

In Monaco, there was no guarantee Hamilton would get pole, but instead Rosberg pretends to make a mistake in what was a very clear deliberate act at sabotaging another drivers qualifying.

It's disappointing because we've seen some great battles between the two but if Rosberg wins the title in Abu Dhabi he will have done so by gaining 25 points on his opponent through cheating and a stupid double points sytem, thus I don't want him to be champion. Maybe next year he'll come back and do it the right way. I'd like to see that, I'd like to see him come back and see a fair fight between the two drivers and if he beats Hamilton throughout the course of a season without cheating then fair enough - the better man will have won but it would be a sad day for F1 if his cheating is rewarded by winning the championship this year as, throughout the course of the season, Hamilton has been the better driver.

[airshifter]

I'm thinking that the entertainment value of reading all the conspiracy theories is almost as good as that of the racing. :laugh:

It has reached a point where I feel like I should don a tin foil hat before reading certain posts. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, some just can't grasp that repeating their opinion constantly doesn't make it a fact, nor will it make others accept that opinion as fact.

This might be a good thing for the off season. Along with all the usual silly season speculation, we could start a tin foil hat challenge! :)

[Doc Austin]

I'd probably be okay with one driver dominating if that driver was really that good. For example, we all know that Schumacher was an exceptional talent that perhaps comes along once per generation.

I did not feel Schumacher was a worthy champion, simply because of all the chopping, blocking and swerving, not to mention instinctually ruining into people. Having said that, I certainly wish him well and hope he makes the biggest recovery possible.

I much prefer the way Vettel won his championships. I can't recall a single time he drove unfairly. He was always clean and gave the other guy just enough room. Certainly he had some bad moments when he won his first championship (most notably running into Webber in Turkey), but those were from, inexperience instead of ruthlessness.

I remember after he ran into Button in the rain at Spa everyone was saying Vettel was in over his head, and he was reckless and a menace. Vettel responded by never putting a wheel wrong, smashed the competition, and snatched the championship with a dominating gut check performance in the last race. That's how you win a freaking championship!

Vettel won his first championship by never leading the points until the checkered (chequered to you Brits) flag of the last race. I wanted Webber to win, but it was hard to argue with how Vettel did it.


Vettel wasn't and is not this good and the truth is his inability to admit he is wrong over anything just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

When has Vettel been wrong lately? He freely admits he has struggled this year, and he has not blamed anyone but himself, with occasional references to the motor being slow, which it is. Add to that Ricciardo, who is thumping the hell out of him, has nothing but great things about how humble Vettel is in defeat.

I don't understand the Vettel dislike we see here. He is a fine champion who won all his titles cleanly and fairly. If some people don't like him because he is German, I am from the south and grew up as as a bigot, so I understand, even if it's wrong.

BTW: I am not a bigot any more, but if you grew up in the southern US during the late 60s, peer pressure was to hate everyone who was not like you. Sad, but I am over it.


Saying that, he's not the worst of them either and I'd rather he be champion again this year than Rosberg.

It would be a travesty for Rosberg to be champion considering the difference in points would come from his crashing Hamilton at Spa. I can say this as someone who loved Keke and wanted his son to do well. Now, though, I hope he fails this year and comes back next year to win it cleanly.


The great thing about this year is that while we have one team dominating the sport, we have two quality very closely matched drivers whom are battling it out at the front in the same car - you don't see that very often.

I hope the other top teams can get into the fight next year. If Renault can get their motor up to snuff it would be great to see Ricciardo fighting for the win every week. Not sure about Kvat, but I think since he's a Russian I am supposed to hate him! (just kidding)


At the start of the year I was relishing this battle and how it was going to pan out. Unfortunately though, Rosberg went along and cheated in Monaco and in Spa.

I did not care until spa, but then I was firmly in Lewis' corner.


The really disappointing thing about it is that he didn't have to do any of these things.

That sounds exactly like a former seven time champion.


He does have the ability to take it to Hamilton without resorting to such antics.

It was a straight fight in Brazil and Rosberg was flawless.



In Monaco, there was no guarantee Hamilton would get pole, but instead Rosberg pretends to make a mistake in what was a very clear deliberate act at sabotaging another drivers qualifying.

Rosberg went off several times this year in practice and quali, and in none of those other times did we see the crazy sawing back and forth of the steering wheel like we did at Monoco. In the other incidents, Rosberg calmly let off the lock to protect the tires, and simply ran wide. Of course you can't run wide at Monoco, but the escape road is a straight shot. I think Rosberg planned the whole thing and the wild hand motions were to sell everyone the dummy that he was sliding off. Still, you can't really prove what he was thinking, but it's worth mentioning that Schumacher was nearly crucified when he did something similar in Monoco quails.


It's disappointing because we've seen some great battles between the two but if Rosberg wins the title in Abu Dhabi he will have done so by gaining 25 points on his opponent through cheating and a stupid double points sytem, thus I don't want him to be champion.

If Hamilton had the second place points he would have surely gotten at Spa, the championship would already be over. If Nico wins, you can trace the difference back to that moment.


Maybe next year he'll come back and do it the right way.

Exactly. Nico would make a fine champion because he has the name and he's a pretty dashing young man. He is extremely well spoken, and who knows how many languages he can speak? Every podium he says something to the fans in their native language. I just want to see him do it in a less suspicious way, like say winning more races than whomever he beats for the title.

[steveaki13]

But he's German?

So?????

[jens]

I have to admit this nationality talk has really tired me.

Between Hamilton and Rosberg I don't care any more. In a way I like that the championship is still open before the final race and Rosberg is that close in points, then again Hamilton has been the better driver this year. If Hamilton wins, it will be well deserved. If Rosberg wins - well, it would be an interesting solution, I would be okay with it - that's racing. We would have one more WDC on the grid, which is also good.

I have long thought Rosberg is at least around Button level, so while Button has collected a WDC in a top car, it would be good to see Rosberg doing the same one day too. But if he doesn't do it this year, maybe in the future. I guess he and Hamilton both have multiple seasons left in this supreme Mercedes. And I would like if in this case both of them would win championships. If they are going to be the main conteders for a few years now.

[journeyman racer]

So?????
I was taking the piss out of dj



It would be a travesty for Rosberg to be champion
Travesty is a bit strong?

[Doc Austin]

Travesty is a bit strong?

They don't have hyperbole down under?

[The Black Knight]

I did not feel Schumacher was a worthy champion, simply because of all the chopping, blocking and swerving, not to mention instinctually ruining into people. Having said that, I certainly wish him well and hope he makes the biggest recovery possible.

Well, that's the thing about Schumacher, a lot of what he did was instinctual. It wasn't a great decision at the time but I always felt that when it was instinctual it could be excused more than it it were premeditated. I know Schumacher Monaco 2006 was premeditated and I was disappointed he did it but, unlike Rosberg, he got punished and ultimately it probably cost him the title that year. What Rosberg did in Monaco wasn't instinctual and since he said he did Spa to prove a point, I think that throws any instinctual argument out the window, and he didn't get punished for either incident and they may indeed win him the championship still.

I honestly don't have any problem which chopping, blocking and swerving. I think drivers don't race each other hard enough nowadays. Schumacher made it as hard as possible for someone to get past him. If it's a safety thing drivers are worried about in these situations they probably shouldn't be in such a dangerous sport.


I much prefer the way Vettel won his championships. I can't recall a single time he drove unfairly. He was always clean and gave the other guy just enough room. Certainly he had some bad moments when he won his first championship (most notably running into Webber in Turkey), but those were from, inexperience instead of ruthlessness.

I remember after he ran into Button in the rain at Spa everyone was saying Vettel was in over his head, and he was reckless and a menace. Vettel responded by never putting a wheel wrong, smashed the competition, and snatched the championship with a dominating gut check performance in the last race. That's how you win a freaking championship!

Vettel won his first championship by never leading the points until the checkered (chequered to you Brits) flag of the last race. I wanted Webber to win, but it was hard to argue with how Vettel did it.

When has Vettel been wrong lately? He freely admits he has struggled this year, and he has not blamed anyone but himself, with occasional references to the motor being slow, which it is. Add to that Ricciardo, who is thumping the hell out of him, has nothing but great things about how humble Vettel is in defeat.

I don't understand the Vettel dislike we see here. He is a fine champion who won all his titles cleanly and fairly. If some people don't like him because he is German, I am from the south and grew up as as a bigot, so I understand, even if it's wrong.



I am not British ;)

Lately to be fair Vettel has been quite humble in defeat and I have been impressed with the manner in which he has handled it which has made me warm to hims omewhat. You mentioned Turkey where he hit Webber and lets not forget Malaysia 2012 where he hit Karthikayan. My only problem with him in these situations is his inability to admit he was wrong.


BTW: I am not a bigot any more, but if you grew up in the southern US during the late 60s, peer pressure was to hate everyone who was not like you. Sad, but I am over it.



It would be a travesty for Rosberg to be champion considering the difference in points would come from his crashing Hamilton at Spa. I can say this as someone who loved Keke and wanted his son to do well. Now, though, I hope he fails this year and comes back next year to win it cleanly.

Don't worry, we all had our own opinions when we were younger and as we grow older we change our ways.

I agree it would be a travesty if Rosberg was champion this year. It would show the world that in F1 you can cheat multiple times, get away with it and win the WDC.


I hope the other top teams can get into the fight next year. If Renault can get their motor up to snuff it would be great to see Ricciardo fighting for the win every week. Not sure about Kvat, but I think since he's a Russian I am supposed to hate him! (just kidding)



I did not care until spa, but then I was firmly in Lewis' corner.



That sounds exactly like a former seven time champion.



Haha I guess so ;)


It was a straight fight in Brazil and Rosberg was flawless.




Rosberg went off several times this year in practice and quali, and in none of those other times did we see the crazy sawing back and forth of the steering wheel like we did at Monoco. In the other incidents, Rosberg calmly let off the lock to protect the tires, and simply ran wide. Of course you can't run wide at Monoco, but the escape road is a straight shot. I think Rosberg planned the whole thing and the wild hand motions were to sell everyone the dummy that he was sliding off. Still, you can't really prove what he was thinking, but it's worth mentioning that Schumacher was nearly crucified when he did something similar in Monoco quails.


He also locked up a lot later into Mirabeau plenty of times throughout the race and made the corner every time. Rosberg deserved to beat Hamilton in Brazil and drove a sterling race in Brazil. It is the first time all year he has been impressive for an entire weekend. It takes a big performance to beat someone of Lewis quality in a straight out fight.



If Hamilton had the second place points he would have surely gotten at Spa, the championship would already be over. If Nico wins, you can trace the difference back to that moment.



Exactly. Nico would make a fine champion because he has the name and he's a pretty dashing young man. He is extremely well spoken, and who knows how many languages he can speak? Every podium he says something to the fans in their native language. I just want to see him do it in a less suspicious way, like say winning more races than whomever he beats for the title.


Yup, and hopefully some day Nico will be champion. Until Monaco, I was quite a fan of his and hopefully he'll come back next year and, if he can, maybe he'll pip Hamilton in a straight fight throughout the season. This year though, he does not deserve to be champion.

[journeyman racer]

They don't have hyperbole down under?
Hyperbole mustn't have reached Melbourne yet :o The Superbole is shown here though.

[Doc Austin]

Well, that's the thing about Schumacher, a lot of what he did was instinctual. It wasn't a great decision at the time but I always felt that when it was instinctual it could be excused more than it it were premeditated.

No. You can't excuse bad behavior even when it is instinctual. We aren't cavemen, or French (just kidding) who don't know any better.


I know Schumacher Monaco 2006 was premeditated and I was disappointed he did it..........

He almost killed Mika at Spa in either 99 or 00 (can't remember), and no one cared, but people lost their minds when he simply parked his car on the track. I just can't understand that kind of thinking. I mean, if parking a car is worth all the grief, why is nearly killing someone with stupid driving overlooked?


What Rosberg did in Monaco wasn't instinctual and since he said he did Spa to prove a point, I think that throws any instinctual argument out the window, and he didn't get punished for either incident and they may indeed win him the championship still.

I'm not completely convinced Monaco was a mistake, but I've seen the Spa video enough to know Nico set Hammy up and pruned him in the ass. Forget trying to talk me out of it. I know what I saw. If Nico wins by less than the second place points Hamilton would have gotten at the minimum, I don't think it's a fair championship.


I honestly don't have any problem which chopping, blocking and swerving.

Check Utube vides of Marco Campos and Jeff Krosnoff.

That, and everyone wants to see overtaking. Well, no one is even going to try to overtake if they know they are going to get run off the road, are they?

I'de be ok with chopping, blocking and swerving as long as you could punt those people out of the way or make them run over one of your wheels and crash out. They are doing essentially the same thing to you when they swerve over on you. If you want them to drive dirty, make it the same for everyone.


I think drivers don't race each other hard enough nowadays. Schumacher made it as hard as possible for someone to get past him. If it's a safety thing drivers are worried about in these situations they probably shouldn't be in such a dangerous sport.

There is a huge difference between racing hard and offering someone the options of backing off or dying. Schumacher was always practiced the later.


I am not British ;)

I wasn't referring to you specifically. I'm fine with being nationalistic and all, but I don't hate anyone because they are a certain nationality. Well, maybe the French (just kidding).


I agree it would be a travesty if Rosberg was champion this year. It would show the world that in F1 you can cheat multiple times, get away with it and win the WDC.

The world already knows that from the times Schumacher won chopping, blocking and swerving ...... Not even to mention driving into people by "instinct."

As senna said when asked how he felt about winning the championship by shoving Prost off the road to Suzuka, "I am the world champion."I'm sorry, I could never feel good about winning by doing something underhanded. I just couldn't.



This year though, he does not deserve to be champion.

The way it sits now, it's pretty close to a straight fight. Barring mechanical failure, if Hamilton can't get the second place he needs against Red Bull, Ferrari, etc, he won't deserve to be champion either.

[journeyman racer]

Well, that's the thing about Schumacher, a lot of what he did was instinctual. It wasn't a great decision at the time but I always felt that when it was instinctual it could be excused more than it it were premeditated. I know Schumacher Monaco 2006 was premeditated and I was disappointed he did it but, unlike Rosberg, he got punished and ultimately it probably cost him the title that year. What Rosberg did in Monaco wasn't instinctual and since he said he did Spa to prove a point, I think that throws any instinctual argument out the window, and he didn't get punished for either incident and they may indeed win him the championship still.

I honestly don't have any problem which chopping, blocking and swerving. I think drivers don't race each other hard enough nowadays. Schumacher made it as hard as possible for someone to get past him. If it's a safety thing drivers are worried about in these situations they probably shouldn't be in such a dangerous sport.
lolololol

Actually, it's little worrying. A dumb attitude to driving as a discipline. No comprehension at all. This is the result off all of Schumacher's bs that he was allowed to get away with. It'll take decades for this garbage attitude to wear off.

Any douchebag can show how tough they are in the safety of being inside their own car, and the knowledge that a sudden move of theirs will put another guy in danger, and not themselves.

In all the websites I'm a part of, I've never written any words of sympathy towards Schuey over his accident last year. He was such a dangerous Karmicheal and deserved to get hurt. Albeit, getting hurt on the track.

Apparently, TBK is a local hero on the kart track. If he pulled that **** on the track, s/he'd deserve nothing less than getting their head literally kick in. It's the pathetic Schumacher legacy that'll last for many decades.

Go the rock.

[Doc Austin]

Any douchebag can show how tough they are in the safety of being inside their own car, and the knowledge that a sudden move of theirs will put another guy in danger, and not themselves.

In the days when about 1 in 3 Formula One drivers were getting killed, you never saw any of that stuff. Today, the cars are so strong and the circuits have so much paved run off that the danger is comparatively non-existent. It's been so long since anyone has been killed that Jules Bianchi's' accident really shook people up. This was even more so with Senna's accident.

Hell, when Piers Courage was killed they let the race run and even had two of his best friends up on the podium. You lost friends so often back then that the drivers thought it was normal. As such, they did not hurry the process up with chopping, blocking and swerving. They sure as hell never tried to run into each other on purpose.

Today, friends Lewis and Nico were running into each other at the fastest part of Spa because one of them wanted to "prove a point."


In all the websites I'm a part of, I've never written any words of sympathy towards Schuey over his accident last year. He was such a dangerous Karmicheal and deserved to get hurt. Albeit, getting hurt on the track.

Dude, that's cold. Even as one of Schumacher's most severe critics, I just can't agree with this. As much as I disliked the way he drove and endangered everyone else, I don't think he deserved to get hurt as badly as he did. His family sure doesn't deserve this.

If he had gotten hurt, say, trying to squeeze Rubens into the pit wall at Hungary, or trying to take Villeneuve out at Jerez, I could almost understand getting a little satisfaction out of it, because he did it to himself pulling a dirty trick, but in the end he got hurt trying to help another skier.

Of course, if we were to have that kind of accident, you can believe the FIA would clamp down on the chopping, blocking and swerving. The sad part is they will do nothing until it does happen, and then everyone will act like they are shocked and saddened because no one could have foreseen that happening.

Like with Bianchi's accident, what did they thing was going to happen when they put an immovable object in the gravel trap? Not seeing that coming was about the same thing as thinking no one will swerve on someone and launch them over a wheel.


It's the pathetic Schumacher legacy that'll last for many decades.

It's pathetic that his ruthlessness is overlooked when he is held in such high esteem. It's one thing to race hard, but it's something completely different to deliberately putting another competitor in such great peril. Sure, racing is dangerous, but it's unacceptable to make it worse on purpose.

Offering the other guy the option of "back off or die" is not racing. That's not hard racing. That's just insane.

As far as legacy, Schumacher was just driving to the one left to him by Senna and Prost. Senna was the one who started all the swerving around, and Prost was the first to deliberately take a competitor out. Yet, both are considered among the greats. I guess winning erases any wrong doing.


Go the rock.

Please explain this. I am sure it's a good one.

[Mark]

Good post. I've never liked Schumacher either. But whenever he was interviewed outside of competition he always came across as a nice bloke.

[journeyman racer]

In the days when about 1 in 3 Formula One drivers were getting killed, you never saw any of that stuff. Today, the cars are so strong and the circuits have so much paved run off that the danger is comparatively non-existent. It's been so long since anyone has been killed that Jules Bianchi's' accident really shook people up. This was even more so with Senna's accident.

Hell, when Piers Courage was killed they let the race run and even had two of his best friends up on the podium. You lost friends so often back then that the drivers thought it was normal. As such, they did not hurry the process up with chopping, blocking and swerving. They sure as hell never tried to run into each other on purpose.

Today, friends Lewis and Nico were running into each other at the fastest part of Spa because one of them wanted to "prove a point."
Yes


Dude, that's cold. Even as one of Schumacher's most severe critics, I just can't agree with this. As much as I disliked the way he drove and endangered everyone else, I don't think he deserved to get hurt as badly as he did. His family sure doesn't deserve this.

If he had gotten hurt, say, trying to squeeze Rubens into the pit wall at Hungary, or trying to take Villeneuve out at Jerez, I could almost understand getting a little satisfaction out of it, because he did it to himself pulling a dirty trick, but in the end he got hurt trying to help another skier.

Of course, if we were to have that kind of accident, you can believe the FIA would clamp down on the chopping, blocking and swerving. The sad part is they will do nothing until it does happen, and then everyone will act like they are shocked and saddened because no one could have foreseen that happening.

Like with Bianchi's accident, what did they thing was going to happen when they put an immovable object in the gravel trap? Not seeing that coming was about the same thing as thinking no one will swerve on someone and launch them over a wheel.
It is cold, isn't it? But it's not me putting you in danger in a motor race.



It's pathetic that his ruthlessness is overlooked when he is held in such high esteem. It's one thing to race hard, but it's something completely different to deliberately putting another competitor in such great peril. Sure, racing is dangerous, but it's unacceptable to make it worse on purpose.

Offering the other guy the option of "back off or die" is not racing. That's not hard racing. That's just insane.

As far as legacy, Schumacher was just driving to the one left to him by Senna and Prost. Senna was the one who started all the swerving around, and Prost was the first to deliberately take a competitor out. Yet, both are considered among the greats. I guess winning erases any wrong doing.

In theory. Letting Schumacher off the hook, just relives his responsibility of his contribution to ordinary driving from others. Having read your opinions of Prost on other threads, I think you hold 89JGP too much against him. But I was never compelled to add to those discussions til now.




Please explain this. I am sure it's a good one.
I don't know. I can't remember writing it last night.

[Doc Austin]

It is cold, isn't it? But it's not me putting you in danger in a motor race.

Oh, Schumacher was cold too. He could have very easily killed someone and his most dangerous stunts aren't even famous. If I talk about what he did to Hakkinen at Spa most people simply don't remember. Even worse, they probably don't remember because at the time they didn't care.

As much as I disliked the way he drove, I do want to stop short of saying he deserved where he is now. Of course, if he had got that way pulling a dirty and dangerous trick on the track, it would be hard to feel sorry for him.


In theory. Letting Schumacher off the hook, just relives his responsibility of his contribution to ordinary driving from others.

Oh, I'm not letting him off the hook. I'm just sad he got hurt so badly. You and I don't disagree about how unsporting and dangerous his driving was. I can't remember anyone else getting thrown out of the world championship for deliberately trying to crash an opponent, can you?


Having read your opinions of Prost on other threads, I think you hold 89JGP too much against him.

Perhaps, but at the time no one else had ever crashed an opponent on purpose. Of course it was in the chicane where they were not going so fast, but it was still unsporting and not a fitting way to win a championship.

Senna and Prost are the ones who started all of the chopping, blocking and swerving, but in Prost's defense, he was simply playing to the rules Senna laid down at Estoril in 89. I'de imagine Prost was still pissed off by the time they got to Japan and just decided to take him out. Maybe I have been too hard on Prost because it was merely self defense at that point. I don't remember him driving like that with anyone else. Of course, it's sacrilege to say anything bad about Senna, but he is the one who started it all.

If we are going to lay down the blame, the FIA should have stopped all this stuff cold, but instead we have had to live with the ridiculous "one move" BS that isn't even in the written rules. You get one move to defend, even if you ram someone into the pit wall, it's only one move.


I don't know. I can't remember writing it last night.

LOL! Happens to me too!

[journeyman racer]

Are you talking about the Belgian GP, where they went either side of Zonta?

Since nothing happened to him on the track. I prefer to see Schumacher's accident as the Universe's way of saying "Hey. I saw what you did, and I don't like it. So here's yours..." I see the irony. Like with Senna's similar reputation, then dying as a result of an accident that had nothing to do with desperate driving. Yes, it's is cold.

Your own defence of Prost is pretty much my attitude towards him, and I let him go of the Suzuka business. I'm not convinced it was clear cut, as you and some others do. But guys like Senna and Schumacher (or equivalent in other parts of life), they push guys to the edge and leave no margin. So I can understand the "retaliate first" philosophy that happened there, if that's what happened.

I also allow a benefit of the doubt. You can make a case to say one thing or the other happened. But I'm not sure you can go into minute, critical analysis to make the point. If you're the driving standards observer. You can say "Alain/Nico, we're letting you off. But don't think we don't see the difference. We're watching..."

I think it's best to leave a margin for error. Kind of like the video review in the nfl. The evidence has to be conclusive.

[Doc Austin]

Are you talking about the Belgian GP, where they went either side of Zonta?

Two laps before that he swerved multiple times and finally put Mika onto the grass and smeared red paint on the McLaren's front wing end plate. They could have interlocked wheels very easily.


I see the irony. Like with Senna's similar reputation, then dying as a result of an accident that had nothing to do with desperate driving.

If Schumacher had gotten hurt driving dirty I would not have feel so much sympathy for him. After all, if you are going to do something stupid you have better be really tough. You had also better be ready for the consequences.

Lauda said it was just a dumb accident and I gotta go with that. Schumacher supposedly is a good enough skier that he could have maybe been a professional racer, but he was not even screwing around or going fast when he got hurt. It's just weird and a little disturbing.

Like, after all the danger he faced in F1, he gets messed up while skiing with his family. See, now that's some sad irony.



Your own defence of Prost is pretty much my attitude towards him, and I let him go of the Suzuka business. I'm not convinced it was clear cut, as you and some others do.

Like I say, Prost never drove like that with anyone else, but Senna drove like that with everyone. Prost was a victim that was forced to play Senna's game. If it were me, I would have sucker punched him after the race. That's a harder consequence than the nothing that the FIA did about it. Senna getting away with Estoril just set up all the bad blood and deliberate crashing that followed.

If I am fighting for a world championship, and the FIA endorses dirty driving (which in effect, is what they did), I'm goijng to drive dirty. The FIA should have clamped down on this is as soon as it happened. If I am the race steward in Estoril, the black flag comes out for Senna before they get to the next turn.

I really can't blame Prost for feeling like he was fighting for his own survival after the FIA endorsed Senna's potentially deadly behavior at Estoril. My blaming Prost for Suzuka 89 is simply clinical and observing which car ran into which car.

There is video of the First Suzuka incident from higher above and you can very clear see Prost aimed his car a good 20 feet inside the apex. If he was not trying to wreck Senna I have no other explanation for turning in so early.


So I can understand the "retaliate first" philosophy that happened there, if that's what happened.

Still not a fitting way to win a championship. Senna had almost squeezed Prost into the pit wall at Estoril, so I am not finding fault solely with Senna. They were both responsible for the whole ugly mess........all of it. However, Senna started it and it was clear he would kill Prost if he had to.

All of the dirty driving we see in F1 started with Senna's swerve at Estoril.


I also allow a benefit of the doubt. You can make a case to say one thing or the other happened. But I'm not sure you can go into minute, critical analysis to make the point.

Estoril was so off the charts that absolutely everyone was shocked. No one had ever seen anything like that before. That's why nothing was done. There is nothing in the rulebook about trying to squeeze someone into a wall on the straight.

Suzuka was a little harder to call, but if you look at the video I am talking about it is very, very clear cut that Prost would haqve gone off the inside of the corner has Senna not already been there.

Finally, when Senna lined Prost up and pruned him at the fastest part of the circuit at Suzuka, a pattern of dirty driving between those two had already been established. I remember seeing it live on TV with some friends, and we all said ahead of time that Senna was not going to give Prost an inch. It was still kind of shocking that he literally tried to put him in the Pacific ocean.


f you're the driving standards observer. You can say "Alain/Nico, we're letting you off. But don't think we don't see the difference. We're watching..."

I've raced enough to know what is and isn't fair. I know where the proper line is on most corners, and it's not squeezing the other guy onto the grass in the braking zone. It's actually really easy to look at video and see who has won the corned and who needs to back out. Sometimes it's a hard call, but Estoril and both Suzuka incidents were so blatant I can't see a way to let those two off.

Other incidents are harder to call, like Vettel/Webber in Turkey. Certainly vettel moved over a little to get on lone, but webber left him absolutely no room, at all. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your teammate to play a little less hard with you, but Webber clearly wasn't going to give away anything. That one was Vettel's fault, but it was also super hard nosed racing on both sides with no malice. Maybe there was malice afterwards, but not when it happened.



I think it's best to leave a margin for error. Kind of like the video review in the nfl. The evidence has to be conclusive.

With today's HD in-car cameras and telemetry, the FIA damm sure knows what's going on in these cars. I think they just have no spine for making the drivers respect each other.

You know, they will give you a grid penalty if you are at fault in a racing incident, but if you line a guy up and prune him in the ass on purpose they look the other way. I thought Nico clearly took aim on Hamilton, and can't for a second believe a driver of his quality could misjudge it so badly. Then they turn around and call Chico "reckless" for legitimately fighting for a corner in Austin and screwing it up.

I think it's a bit absurd that they are all preachy about safety and then let the drivers try to kill each other.

[The Black Knight]

Two laps before that he swerved multiple times and finally put Mika onto the grass and smeared red paint on the McLaren's front wing end plate. They could have interlocked wheels very easily.



If Schumacher had gotten hurt driving dirty I would not have feel so much sympathy for him. After all, if you are going to do something stupid you have better be really tough. You had also better be ready for the consequences.

Lauda said it was just a dumb accident and I gotta go with that. Schumacher supposedly is a good enough skier that he could have maybe been a professional racer, but he was not even screwing around or going fast when he got hurt. It's just weird and a little disturbing.

Like, after all the danger he faced in F1, he gets messed up while skiing with his family. See, now that's some sad irony.



Which race are you speaking about here? I have seen all these races but it's very hard to remember a single incident like this from over 12 years ago. My memory is that Schumacher always raced very fair and hard with Hakkinen. I don't remember Hakkinen complaining either about it.

Regardless of his sports personality, what he did on track and your beliefs on it, he is still a human being whom has contributed a huge interest to F1, hundreds of millions to charity, and no one deserves to be going through what he and his family are going through right now. It is sad to see a great man like him in this condition, especially over such a trivial incident.


Like I say, Prost never drove like that with anyone else, but Senna drove like that with everyone. Prost was a victim that was forced to play Senna's game. If it were me, I would have sucker punched him after the race. That's a harder consequence than the nothing that the FIA did about it. Senna getting away with Estoril just set up all the bad blood and deliberate crashing that followed.

If I am fighting for a world championship, and the FIA endorses dirty driving (which in effect, is what they did), I'm goijng to drive dirty. The FIA should have clamped down on this is as soon as it happened. If I am the race steward in Estoril, the black flag comes out for Senna before they get to the next turn.

I really can't blame Prost for feeling like he was fighting for his own survival after the FIA endorsed Senna's potentially deadly behavior at Estoril. My blaming Prost for Suzuka 89 is simply clinical and observing which car ran into which car.

There is video of the First Suzuka incident from higher above and you can very clear see Prost aimed his car a good 20 feet inside the apex. If he was not trying to wreck Senna I have no other explanation for turning in so early.



Still not a fitting way to win a championship. Senna had almost squeezed Prost into the pit wall at Estoril, so I am not finding fault solely with Senna. They were both responsible for the whole ugly mess........all of it. However, Senna started it and it was clear he would kill Prost if he had to.

All of the dirty driving we see in F1 started with Senna's swerve at Estoril.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_AwV66ss0

Is this the incident you're talking about? I just regard that as hard racing. Senna at no point never gave Prost room, he just made it as difficult for him as possible. Similar to the Schumacher/Barrichello incident in Hungary 2010 - which is one of the most blown out of proportion incidents of all time, Barrichello was able to get by so at the end of the day, Schumacher gave him enough room. We all know Barrichello is a bit of a Jessie, especially when it comes to anything surrounding Schumacher, so he was always going to throw the toys out of the pram over any trivial incident with Schumacher. Anyway, as far as I am concerned about that incident, it was fair game and Barrichello came out on top. And please note, almost squeezing someone into a wall, does not equate to actually squeezing someone into a wall. Yes, he squeezed Prost intentionally but he didn't squeeze him into the wall. Senna was trying to intimidate Prost to back out not kill him. If he had been trying to kill him he'd have put him into the wall.


Estoril was so off the charts that absolutely everyone was shocked. No one had ever seen anything like that before. That's why nothing was done. There is nothing in the rulebook about trying to squeeze someone into a wall on the straight.

Suzuka was a little harder to call, but if you look at the video I am talking about it is very, very clear cut that Prost would haqve gone off the inside of the corner has Senna not already been there.

Finally, when Senna lined Prost up and pruned him at the fastest part of the circuit at Suzuka, a pattern of dirty driving between those two had already been established. I remember seeing it live on TV with some friends, and we all said ahead of time that Senna was not going to give Prost an inch. It was still kind of shocking that he literally tried to put him in the Pacific ocean.



I've raced enough to know what is and isn't fair. I know where the proper line is on most corners, and it's not squeezing the other guy onto the grass in the braking zone. It's actually really easy to look at video and see who has won the corned and who needs to back out. Sometimes it's a hard call, but Estoril and both Suzuka incidents were so blatant I can't see a way to let those two off.

Other incidents are harder to call, like Vettel/Webber in Turkey. Certainly vettel moved over a little to get on lone, but webber left him absolutely no room, at all. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your teammate to play a little less hard with you, but Webber clearly wasn't going to give away anything. That one was Vettel's fault, but it was also super hard nosed racing on both sides with no malice. Maybe there was malice afterwards, but not when it happened.


It's very clear from teh aerial view of the incident in Suzuka that Prost turned over on Senna. Not even an amateur would turn into a corner that early, however, when it comes to Senna vs Prost, neither driver came out smelling of roses. They both had their own share of wrongdoings.
As for the Turkey incident, Vettel had plenty of room, if he hadn't swerved over to the right to hit Webber then they wouldn't have collided. It's a straight forward incident and, to be honest, that is the root from where I began to dislike Vettel. Instead of being a man and holding his hand up to say he was wrong he lay all the blame on Webber.



With today's HD in-car cameras and telemetry, the FIA damm sure knows what's going on in these cars. I think they just have no spine for making the drivers respect each other.

You know, they will give you a grid penalty if you are at fault in a racing incident, but if you line a guy up and prune him in the ass on purpose they look the other way. I thought Nico clearly took aim on Hamilton, and can't for a second believe a driver of his quality could misjudge it so badly. Then they turn around and call Chico "reckless" for legitimately fighting for a corner in Austin and screwing it up.

I think it's a bit absurd that they are all preachy about safety and then let the drivers try to kill each other.

I think we can all agree that there is little inconsistency in the FIA's interpretation of the rules. To be quite frank, I believe Perez was a racing incident there. He simply braked too late and couldn't stop in time. Shit happens but I'd call it no more than a racing incident. One could call it clumsy yes but not reckless. Things like this are always going to happen in F1.

As for Nico and Hamilton in Belgium, it's the second movement of the steering wheel. If that hadn't happened then I'd accept that it was a racing incident, but he clearly turns into Hamilton to try and take him out. There is really no other reasonable explanation of it so in the end of the day, that's 25 points that Hamilton has lost, minimum, this year through his teammate taking him off and faking lockups in qualifying but ya know, we've been over this and we all have our opinions formed now ;)

[Doc Austin]

Which race are you speaking about here? I have seen all these races but it's very hard to remember a single incident like this from over 12 years ago. My memory is that Schumacher always raced very fair and hard with Hakkinen. I don't remember Hakkinen complaining either about it.

About 0:30 in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1WuWu8kGak

Hakkinen complained about it in the interviews afterwards, but you know how he was. It was something like "not very nice," or something equally benign. It's not like the Finns to make a big deal out of anything, no matter how egregious.


........and no one deserves to be going through what he and his family are going through right now.

I believe I say as much any time I mention the man.


Is this the incident you're talking about? I just regard that as hard racing. Senna at no point never gave Prost room, he just made it as difficult for him as possible.

If you're ok with that, there's little point in trying to convince you.

Here's an idea: let's endorse them driving like that until someone launches a car into the pits. Then we can all sob about the humanity of it all and say that the FIA should have taken action earlier. How's that sound?


Similar to the Schumacher/Barrichello incident in Hungary 2010 - which is one of the most blown out of proportion incidents of all time,

See the little white line on the road to Ruben's left? That marks the track limit. Schumacher literally ran Barrichello off the track, and you think it's OK?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/01/article-0-0AA75A49000005DC-395_468x286.jpg

Oh, wait. I guess that's just "hard, but fair," right? Complaining about this is "overblown?"

See, that's not even the racing surface. Barrichello is off the track, and there is no room for ambiguity on that point. Being allowed one move to defend your position is not the same thing as using that one move to drive the other guy completely off the circuit.

Certainly you might say if Schumacher wanted to put him in the wall he could have, but consider that on the other side of the wall there's all those unprotected people, and all that raw fuel. Who in their right mind would cut it that close considering the potential consequences? If you want to die, that's fine, but you can't endanger other people like that unless you want your legacy tainted. Schumacher played with a lot of people's fate that day, all over a measly 8th or 9th place.

Schumacher's irresponsibility was off the scale that day, which is saying a lot considering his past antics.


Senna was trying to intimidate Prost to back out not kill him. If he had been trying to kill him he'd have put him into the wall.

Yeah, he didn't actually try to kill him until Suzuka in' 90. Surely you see the pattern, don't you?


...... however, when it comes to Senna vs Prost, neither driver came out smelling of roses. They both had their own share of wrongdoings.

Both disgraced the world championship, but I'm willing to cut Prost a little slack considering that how ruthless and dangerous Senna had already been.

I'm not excusing Prost for retaliating for Estoril, but it's also not as bad as ramming someone from behind at the end of Suzuka's front straight. Senna is by far the bad guy between those two.


As for the Turkey incident, Vettel had plenty of room, if he hadn't swerved over to the right to hit Webber then they wouldn't have collided.

It was nothing like a swerve at all. Vettel just moved over a bit to widen the corner a little. Standard stuff. He didn't snatch the wheel or try to run Webber off. He had no reason to believe his own teammate would give him zero room. I'm guessing he probably thought webber would cut him a little slack, seeing as they were supposed to be teammates and all. Clinically it was Vettel's fault, but I don't for a minute believe he tried to crash them both on purpose.

Webber wasn't real smart to play it that hard either. If he had given his own teammate just a little room, the worst thing that could have happened would have been second place. In the end, Webber's fortunes went totally south after this incident, and I gotta believe the team may have lost a bit of faith in him.

If you take out the entire team, the team isn't going to be happy. Later in the year Webber wanted the team to make him the #1, and I agreed it was the best solution. Webber just about had it locked, but the team let Vettel stay in the fight.

At the time, I thought Red Bull was insane to allow Vettel to steal points from Webber, but perhaps that's what you get when you play it that hard against your teammate and cost the team a sure 1,2 finish.


It's a straight forward incident and, to be honest, that is the root from where I began to dislike Vettel.

Why would you dislike someone for being involved in a straight forward incident but let Senna and Schumacher off for dirty driving and deliberately crashing people?


I think we can all agree that there is little inconsistency in the FIA's interpretation of the rules.

Kind of like there is a little inconsistency on internet racing forums.


To be quite frank, I believe Perez was a racing incident there. He simply braked too late and couldn't stop in time. Shit happens but I'd call it no more than a racing incident. One could call it clumsy yes but not reckless. Things like this are always going to happen in F1.

And yet Perez gets a bigger penalty than Senna got for deliberately crashing Prost at the fastest part of Suzuka. Must be that inconsistency thing.........


As for Nico and Hamilton in Belgium, it's the second movement of the steering wheel. If that hadn't happened then I'd accept that it was a racing incident, but he clearly turns into Hamilton to try and take him out.

That's the way I saw it, but you really can't prove anything. Nico has been pretty clean since then, so maybe he learned something from it.

In the end, people want hard racing and lots of overtaking, but chopping, blocking and swerving just negates all of that. Defending on the straight is just plain dirty. You are irresponsibly putting the other driver in a potentially deadly situation.

Ask Marco Campos or Jeff Krosnoff if you don't believe me....... except you can't. Both died when someone moved over on them on a straight and launched them.

[Doc Austin]

Something I feel is worth mentioning is that Vettel never seems to be involved in any of these chopping, blocking and swerving incidents. He races fairly and cleanly, and Webber incident (which was very early in his career) aside, he doesn't often get into controversial collisions. I've never seen him swerve or block, or even use up his supposed "one move." Vettel is well spoken and respectful of everyone, so I have a hard time understanding why he is so disliked. Perhaps there is something to it that people don't like him because of where he is from.

Of all of them, because he races so cleanly, Vettel is my favorite, though Ricciardo is much the same way. As such, I tend to pick my favorites based off whether they race cleanly and fairly or not. This is why I am not blinded by Senna worship, and why I never warmed up to Schumacher as a driver. I could care less that he is German. If he were American I would still be critical of his chopping, blocking and swerving.

Racing fairly can almost be described the same was as you would determine what is cheating in a relationship. If you would not want it done to you, it's cheating, and if you would not want to be run up against the pit wall by a lunatic swerving over on you, it would be dirty driving if you did it to someone else.

It's pretty clear cut for me that if you deliberately put the other guy in a position where he fears you are going to kill him, that's not very fair. That's not the same thing as making it difficult to pass. Difficult and potentially deadly are two different things.

[The Black Knight]

About 0:30 in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1WuWu8kGak

Hakkinen complained about it in the interviews afterwards, but you know how he was. It was something like "not very nice," or something equally benign. It's not like the Finns to make a big deal out of anything, no matter how egregious.



I believe I say as much any time I mention the man.





If you're ok with that, there's little point in trying to convince you.

Here's an idea: let's endorse them driving like that until someone launches a car into the pits. Then we can all sob about the humanity of it all and say that the FIA should have taken action earlier. How's that sound?

I had forgotten about that. I don't really see it in the same light as you do but that's why F1 is such a great sport. He probably went a little too far alright but I wouldn't be getting up in a roar over it.


See the little white line on the road to Ruben's left? That marks the track limit. Schumacher literally ran Barrichello off the track, and you think it's OK?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/01/article-0-0AA75A49000005DC-395_468x286.jpg

Oh, wait. I guess that's just "hard, but fair," right? Complaining about this is "overblown?"

See, that's not even the racing surface. Barrichello is off the track, and there is no room for ambiguity on that point. Being allowed one move to defend your position is not the same thing as using that one move to drive the other guy completely off the circuit.

Certainly you might say if Schumacher wanted to put him in the wall he could have, but consider that on the other side of the wall there's all those unprotected people, and all that raw fuel. Who in their right mind would cut it that close considering the potential consequences? If you want to die, that's fine, but you can't endanger other people like that unless you want your legacy tainted. Schumacher played with a lot of people's fate that day, all over a measly 8th or 9th place.

Schumacher's irresponsibility was off the scale that day, which is saying a lot considering his past antics.



Yeah, he didn't actually try to kill him until Suzuka in' 90. Surely you see the pattern, don't you?



Point well made on that! I'll concede that Schumacher went too far that day in Hungary. I hadn't seen it in a long time and I had forgotten he pushed him that far off the circuit. As for the people in the pit wall and the pits, it's unlikely they were ever in any real danger and I doubt Schumacher every had any intention of putting them in harms way. Racing like that I doubt he had anything in his mind other than not leaving Barrichello past.



Both disgraced the world championship, but I'm willing to cut Prost a little slack considering that how ruthless and dangerous Senna had already been.

I'm not excusing Prost for retaliating for Estoril, but it's also not as bad as ramming someone from behind at the end of Suzuka's front straight. Senna is by far the bad guy between those two.



It was nothing like a swerve at all. Vettel just moved over a bit to widen the corner a little. Standard stuff. He didn't snatch the wheel or try to run Webber off. He had no reason to believe his own teammate would give him zero room. I'm guessing he probably thought webber would cut him a little slack, seeing as they were supposed to be teammates and all. Clinically it was Vettel's fault, but I don't for a minute believe he tried to crash them both on purpose.

Webber wasn't real smart to play it that hard either. If he had given his own teammate just a little room, the worst thing that could have happened would have been second place. In the end, Webber's fortunes went totally south after this incident, and I gotta believe the team may have lost a bit of faith in him.

If you take out the entire team, the team isn't going to be happy. Later in the year Webber wanted the team to make him the #1, and I agreed it was the best solution. Webber just about had it locked, but the team let Vettel stay in the fight.

At the time, I thought Red Bull was insane to allow Vettel to steal points from Webber, but perhaps that's what you get when you play it that hard against your teammate and cost the team a sure 1,2 finish.



Why would you dislike someone for being involved in a straight forward incident but let Senna and Schumacher off for dirty driving and deliberately crashing people?



I don't dislike Vettel for the mistake he made, it's his lack of grace afterwards, blaming Webber when he was clearly to blame. ou say that you think teammates should cut their teammates some slack when they are fighting for a championship? I disagree. Vettel could have made the corner without swerving over to Webber. There was no way Webber could have reacted in time to give him room for what he did. It was Vettel's fault 100%. I don't believe Vettel deliberately tried to run into Webber for a second there but I do believe he made a mistake and I'd rather he admitted it - just like he should have admitted it with Karthikayen in Malaysia.

Anyway, in fairness to Vettel, he seems to have come on a bit this year and, given the humbling that he has had from Ricciardo, I think he has grown a lot. It's good to see he has been so humble in defeat.

[The Black Knight]

Something I feel is worth mentioning is that Vettel never seems to be involved in any of these chopping, blocking and swerving incidents. He races fairly and cleanly, and Webber incident (which was very early in his career) aside, he doesn't often get into controversial collisions. I've never seen him swerve or block, or even use up his supposed "one move." Vettel is well spoken and respectful of everyone, so I have a hard time understanding why he is so disliked. Perhaps there is something to it that people don't like him because of where he is from.

Of all of them, because he races so cleanly, Vettel is my favorite, though Ricciardo is much the same way. As such, I tend to pick my favorites based off whether they race cleanly and fairly or not. This is why I am not blinded by Senna worship, and why I never warmed up to Schumacher as a driver. I could care less that he is German. If he were American I would still be critical of his chopping, blocking and swerving.

Racing fairly can almost be described the same was as you would determine what is cheating in a relationship. If you would not want it done to you, it's cheating, and if you would not want to be run up against the pit wall by a lunatic swerving over on you, it would be dirty driving if you did it to someone else.

It's pretty clear cut for me that if you deliberately put the other guy in a position where he fears you are going to kill him, that's not very fair. That's not the same thing as making it difficult to pass. Difficult and potentially deadly are two different things.

I guess at the end of the day we all warm to drivers in different ways. Schumacher is my childhood hero. I started karting because of him and at the end of the day sometimes I'll admit I can be biased towards him.

On the other hand, I don't care where a driver is from. Whether he is English, German, French, American, Brazilian or wherever, my support of a driver has nothing to do with nationality. I support a driver for how ballsy he is on track. That's why I originally warmed to Schumacher and then to Hamilton. It's also why I liked Rosberg before Monaco - I still regard Alonso and Hamilton as the best in the sport with Rosberg a close third which is why I was so annoyed that he chose to cheat - he didn't have any need to do that. He does have the ability to beat Hamilton fair and square on track if he puts it all together - he proved that in Brazil.

[Doc Austin]

I had forgotten about that. I don't really see it in the same light as you do but that's why F1 is such a great sport. He probably went a little too far alright but I wouldn't be getting up in a roar over it.

If Mika had not backed out, it would have gotten real ugly, real fast. What if they had locked wheels? Would you have gotten in an uproar then? People are going to excuse this kind of thing until someone gets killed, just like we excused going too fast under a yellow flag. Look how that worked out.


Point well made on that! I'll concede that Schumacher went too far that day in Hungary. I hadn't seen it in a long time and I had forgotten he pushed him that far off the circuit. As for the people in the pit wall and the pits, it's unlikely they were ever in any real danger and I doubt Schumacher every had any intention of putting them in harms way.

Schumacher ran him off the road and within inches of the wall. How bad does it have to get for you to consider it "in harm's way?"

Again, if you excuse this today, don't complain about it when someone gets killed in a similar situation.


You say that you think teammates should cut their teammates some slack when they are fighting for a championship? I disagree.

You might if it was your team and your money. Look how furious Wolff and Lauda were with Rosberg after Spa. If you crash your teammate out of a sure 1, 2 finish, that's millions in constructor's points money.

That, and in the end, both Red Bull drivers could have lost the championship to Alonso, and you could trace it back to those lost points. That's just one reason you give your teammate a little slack.



Vettel could have made the corner without swerving over to Webber. There was no way Webber could have reacted in time to give him room for what he did.

Sure, but Vettel can't be blamed for thinking his teammate might give him a little room. I'm sure Webber could have guessed that Vettel would have liked to have had a wider entry. Technically it was Vettel's fault because he went onto Webber's line, but Webber was way too stubborn. Wirth noting is that Webber never seemed to have the team's support after that, which kind of makes what we thing irrelevant.

[Doc Austin]

I guess at the end of the day we all warm to drivers in different ways. Schumacher is my childhood hero. I started karting because of him and at the end of the day sometimes I'll admit I can be biased towards him.

I guess you never got put on your head in karts when someone swerved over on you to block. I did, which might be why I despise that sort of thing. Racing is dangerous enough without trying to make it worse.


On the other hand, I don't care where a driver is from. Whether he is English, German, French, American, Brazilian or wherever, my support of a driver has nothing to do with nationality.

Uhhm no. I will always pull for the American, but if he pulls a dirty trick, nationality won't make a difference to me. With no Americans in the field, I don't have to be subjective.


It's also why I liked Rosberg before Monaco - I still regard Alonso and Hamilton as the best in the sport with Rosberg a close third which is why I was so annoyed that he chose to cheat - he didn't have any need to do that.

I am not convinced one way or the other about Monoco, but Spa was pretty black and white.

Senna and Schumacher did not need to swerve and block either, which is why it was so disappointing they felt they had to stoop that low. Vettel has four championships (one more than Senna, BTW) and never pulled a dirty trick on anyone. I find that much easier to admire than crashing someone on purpose.