2014 Russian Grand Prix Thread

[steveaki13]

I just want to say first up, I realise there are much more important threads on here at the moment after the terrible crash of Jules Bianchi in Japan.

I also would have waited a few days to post this thread too, but this week I know for a fact I am quite busy and may not have time.

So despite the fact no one will really be interested in this at the moment, I thought I would get it done, ready for the next round to start in a few days time.

Hope no one is offended.

2014 Russian GP

So we approach Round 16 of this seasons Championship and with the recent events I imagine Russia's first Grand Prix will be largely over shadowed.

This is a new circuit which personally I know nothing about and had looked forward to seeing its layout.

A few key things are going to be up in the air this weekend.

Will Marussia race, and assuming they do will it be with one car or two. Also which of their young drivers will get their unfortunately aquired chance. As we have seen before many drivers get breaks in their careers due to incidents like this.

Will Will Stevens or Alex Rossi get the nod.

Also Hamilton has a 10 point gap over Rosberg now but due to the Double point joke is still far from safe even with a win this weekend.



1
Lewis Hamilton
Mercedes
266


2
Nico Rosberg
Mercedes
256


3
Daniel Ricciardo
Red Bull
193


4
Sebastian Vettel
Red Bull
139


5
Fernando Alonso
Ferrari
133


6
Valterri Bottas
Williams
130


7
Jenson Button
Mclaren
82


8
Nico Hulkenberg
Force India
76


9
Felipe Massa
Williams
71


10
Sergio Perez
Force India
46


11
Kimi Raikkonen
Ferrari
45


12
Kevin Magnussen
Mclaren
39


13
Jean Eric Vergne
Toro Rosso
21


14
Romain Grosjean
Lotus
8


15
Danii Kyvat
Toro Rosso
8


16
Jules Bianchi
Marussia
2


17
Adrian Sutil
Sauber
0


18
Marcus Ericcson
Caterham
0


19
Pastor Maldonado
Lotus
0


20
Esteban Gutierrez
Sauber
0


21
Max Chilton
Marussia
0


22
Kamui Kobayashi
Caterham
0


23
Andre Lotterer
Caterham
0



In the constructors Championship Mercedes would have already wrapped up that title, but for double points, but are 190 ahead with 215 still on the table. So this weekend it should be done.



1
Mercedes
522


2
Red Bull
332


3
Williams
201


4
Ferrari
178


5
Force India
122


6
Mclaren
121


7
Toro Rosso
29


8
Lotus
8


9
Marussia
2


10
Sauber
0


11
Caterham
0



The new Sochi Autodrom

http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/169263/f1-russian-track-inline.jpg


53 Laps

Current Lap Record:2:25.703 - In Russian Touring Cars. I dare say this will be beaten next weekend.


Session Times - Local & (Uk -Sorry :vampire:)

FP1: 10:00-11:30 - (07:00 - 08:30)
FP 2: 14:00-15:30 -(11:00-12:30)

FP3: 12:00-13:00 - (09:00-10:00)
Quali: 15:00 - (12:00)

Race: 15:00 - (12:00)


No Previous Winners to list

This is a video of the new F1 games reveal of Sochi, to give a rough idea of layout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceuIIKVEmGs


So there you go.

Lets hope Bianchi does well and by next weekend we can enjoy the Russian GP.

Thoughts are with him.

[Tazio]

First impression is that the layout of this track has too many 90° turns, and may be a little mickey mouse. I do think that this will play into The Boss' hands however!

[Storm]

Hope no one is offended.


If anyone is offended by a GP thread then they are not living in the real world.
As sad as the Bianchi case is and as much as we all hope and wish that he makes a good recovery, life has to move on.


As for the track, yeah it seems to have too few fast sweeping corners, but atleast seems to have 2 decent places to overtake.

[steveaki13]

I assume as its their home race of sorts, Marussia will run?

If so I wonder if it will be one or two cars.

Rossi I assume is the natural choice, given I am not sure Will Stevens has his super license yet.

[steveaki13]

If anyone is offended by a GP thread then they are not living in the real world.
As sad as the Bianchi case is and as much as we all hope and wish that he makes a good recovery, life has to move on.
.

Of course, but I posted the thread quite soon after the accident, due to lack of time the last couple of days, so I thought people might think it was strange to post the thread just as the horror of Jules Bianchi's crash was being revealed.

Anyway as you say, F1 and motorsport has to move on after such events otherwise motorsport would cease.

[Doc Austin]

If nothing else, I think we all need a good, safe, fast race to at least distract ourselves for a few hours.

[N. Jones]

To me the track looks like it is trying to emulate Monte Carlo...

[Storm]

^oh yeah, it does have striking similarities apart from the hairpin.

[raybak]

I wreckon it's a bit like the old Long Beach track.

[zako85]

Good news, Russian GP helps to save F1 some money because balaclava masks will be provided to the pit crews at no charge. Two weeks later, it will be reported that McLaren mechanics are invading east Ukraine :)

[Alfa Fan]

I do think that this will play into The Boss' hands however!

Not allowed to use nicknames. I've no idea who you are referring to.

[steveaki13]

Not allowed to use nicknames. I've no idea who you are referring to.

But Da Boss hates Fred, until Beiber and Britney team up on him. Not forgetting Slash who can slash away at Felipe Baby and the iceman. ;)

[Doc Austin]

I only know who Nicole is.

[steveaki13]

Marussia have decided to run just one car, they are keeping Bianchi's car in the garage in tribute.

[A FONDO]

Tribute for what? Some actions are too irrational.

[Tazio]

FP2 dawgs :wave:

[Tazio]

Not allowed to use nicknames. I've no idea who you are referring to.Sorry mate, I'll try to refrain!

[Tazio]

The Boss and Nico are really going at it hammer and tongs! ;)

[Tazio]

K-Mag, Fred, and Jense with pretty good quali sim laps.

[AndyL]

Looks quite positive for McLaren. Their car seems to prefer low grip circuits.

[steveaki13]

But Da Boss hates Fred, until Beiber and Britney team up on him. Not forgetting Slash who can slash away at Felipe Baby and the iceman. ;)

Beat you too it Taz. Although I had forgotten K Mag :bigcry:


The Boss and Nico are really going at it hammer and tongs! ;)


K-Mag, Fred, and Jense with pretty good quali sim laps.

[Tazio]

Practice 3 ladies! :angel:

[Tazio]

K Mag brings out a red flag1

[steveaki13]

Have not really enjoyed the track through practice. It seems bland to me.

I keep hearing commentators saying how close the walls are and what a challenge it is. Really though the walls are on the straights where the challenge is small.

at the corners huge tarmac run offs make it fairly easy in my eyes.

It seems as though putting some walls along straights makes it a tricky street circuit

Also a lot of run off, which no penalty for mistakes. Not even sleeping policeman.



It will not be a circuit I am eager to stay on the calender for years and years. Even if the race is good.

[Tazio]

Agree Steve, I'm unimpressed, and underwhelmed!

[Koz]

The wall seems to blocking view of the cars in some shots. Makes me think concentration camp or rather a gulag.

[journeyman racer]

All year I'd been saying there was a long way to go, regarding the title standings. But now is the first time I feel a title could slip away for Rosberg, who is second. Everything seems to be going Hamilton's way. Rosberg has to take the jam out of Hamilton's donut tomorrow. But you sense Hamilton is feeling pretty good about himself atm. I wonder if Bottas's presence may become more prominent during the race, adding an x-factor in the title race?

[Zico]

All year I'd been saying there was a long way to go, regarding the title standings. But now is the first time I feel a title could slip away for Rosberg, who is second. Everything seems to be going Hamilton's way. Rosberg has to take the jam out of Hamilton's donut tomorrow. But you sense Hamilton is feeling pretty good about himself atm. I wonder if Bottas's presence may become more prominent during the race, adding an x-factor in the title race?


Rosberg is solid, consistant and probably less hard on the car mechanically so for me the title is likely to be one decided by attrition and looks like it could go either way. Yes, Hamilton may be looking more settled, comfortable and quick in these recent races but this could quickly be turned on its head with reliability issues... then we have the double pointer final race in Abu Dhabi.


It will be a travesty if either of them miss out on the WDC due to issues in Abu Dhabi, it makes the WDC even more of a lottery and devalues it massively... the concept disgusts me to the extent I'll be tempted to turn off the TV for the final race in protest. Anyone else also feel this way?

[dj_bytedisaster]

It will be a travesty if either of them miss out on the WDC due to issues in Abu Dhabi, it makes the WDC even more of a lottery and devalues it massively... the concept disgusts me to the extent I'll be tempted to turn off the TV for the final race in protest. Anyone else also feel this way?

The whole WDC is a travesty anyway, not only because of the potential interference through Abu Double, but also because of Mercedes' meddling in the aftermath of Spa. When was it the last time that a team demanded that a driver has to chuck a race win (which Rosberg did at Monza) for what was essentially a racing incident that the Stewards did not consider worthy of a penalty, not even a reprimand.

[Zico]

The whole WDC is a travesty anyway, not only because of the potential interference through Abu Double, but also because of Mercedes' meddling in the aftermath of Spa. When was it the last time that a team demanded that a driver has to chuck a race win (which Rosberg did at Monza) for what was essentially a racing incident that the Stewards did not consider worthy of a penalty, not even a reprimand.


I understand why you might feel a bit bumhurt but unless you have any proof to support your claims Im afraid thats just a conspiracy theory and yours alone. You are a very knowledgable forum poster but you let youself down by coming out with stuff like this.
What reason did he give after the race? To me it looked like he either outbraked himself due to pressure from Hamilton or due to a changing dynamics brake balance issue. If you were Rosberg and told to let Hamilton win, would you do it in such a way as to make yourself look a tad amateurish or would you make it so blatent that people would be in no doubt that it was a free gift? It would certainly be the latter for me!

If you ignore the facts Rosberg poor defence at Suzuka looked more that way but Im of the opinion that he had taken way too much out his tyres at that point, was a sitting duck, and just got it completely wrong when Hamilton pounced.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Two of trhe TJ13 managers were contacted by two different Mercedes employees (and it weren't the janitor or the cleaning lady) and told that part of the 'undisclosed punishment' that Wolff announced after Spa, that Nico was required to give way to Lewis should they find themselves in a 1-2 situation. Nico very obviously did in Monza.

[Zico]

Two of trhe TJ13 managers were contacted by two different Mercedes employees (and it weren't the janitor or the cleaning lady) and told that part of the 'undisclosed punishment' that Wolff announced after Spa, that Nico was required to give way to Lewis should they find themselves in a 1-2 situation. Nico very obviously did in Monza.




Do you have any actual concrete evidence, of what is otherwise hearsay, that might change my opinion? If you don't, I don't/can't subscribe to your theory.

A conspiracy theory is just a battle cry for people with no real factual information. If it was a clear gift I'd say it was feasible or at least worth exploring further but sorry dude, with the way it happened it just doesn't wash. :/

Rosberg intentionally going down the escape road at Monaco to sabotage Hamiltons lap looks much, much more feasible and at least it actually looks very like it from the onboard footage.. but I bet you don't subscribe to that one do you?

[steveaki13]

It will be a travesty if either of them miss out on the WDC due to issues in Abu Dhabi, it makes the WDC even more of a lottery and devalues it massively... the concept disgusts me to the extent I'll be tempted to turn off the TV for the final race in protest. Anyone else also feel this way?

Yes I do. Biggest farce in F1 history (in terms of title deciders) if one is 26 points clear before the final race and lose it.

[steveaki13]

Do you have any actual concrete evidence, of what is otherwise hearsay, that might change my opinion? If you don't, I don't/can't subscribe to your theory.

A conspiracy theory is just a battle cry for people with no real factual information. If it was a clear gift I'd say it was feasible or at least worth exploring further but sorry dude, with the way it happened it just doesn't wash. :/

Rosberg intentionally going down the escape road at Monaco to sabotage Hamiltons lap looks much, much more feasible and at least it actually looks very like it from the onboard footage.. but I bet you don't subscribe to that one do you?

Why bother replying.

[Tazio]

Why bother replying.I'll reply Steve, and this is from someone who honestly doesn't have a fav at Mercedes. I suspected from the beginning that the mysterious punishment for Nico would be something precisely like dj described. My question is if it is true, (and I'm not saying it is only that it is plausible, just as it is plausible, that Nico cheated at Monaco, which to me is just another plausible theory) would Nico reveal this when The Boss finally punks him! :angel:
If it is true I'm gonna' be like "so what" Mercedes have let this whole thing get a little suspicious, but I really don't know what they could do to avoid it. I think this sh*tstorm is merely combination of having such a dominant car, and social media being so prevalent in the matter. As I mentioned before, one driver at Mercedes will be world champion, the other will have finished last in a two car contest :laugh:

[steveaki13]

I may be true, I also dare say its happened plenty of times in the past. Teams balancing up wins between its drivers.

Why now is DJ so up in arms? At the same time as saying Red Bull are screwing Vettel over, after 4 years where he got a likely amount of help.

Anyway whatever dudes. Doesn't matter really. Lewis is dominant on wins, Nico is better in terms of consistency, and they are 10 points apart with 4 races left.

Seems like a decent title fight for whoever wins.

[steveaki13]

So sad that Bottas messed up his final corners. He has been brilliant so far this weekend and would have loved to see him get a pole.

Otherwise the Merc's seem still 0.7-1.0 second clear in racing (apart from Bottas)

Jenson Button again showing a brilliant performance to secure 4th.

kyvat too. 5th place. Amazing stuff and can he stay there?

Not a great track, but looking forward the race anyway

[driveace]

Is there not a possibility that Nico is missing the feedback from the pit wall as to where Hamilton is quicker than him ?
DJ unless you have concrete evidence to back up your statements,then other members cannot take your assumptions seriously .The viewing public thought Nico was wrong in Monaco and in Spa ,by the boos he started to get on the podium.The boos obviously upset Nico ,from comments he made.But to win in a sporting way rather than by at the detriment of your team and team mate ,leaves a nasty taste in peoples mouth .
I look forward to you putting on here the print outs that back up your imaginary statements .
We eagerly await your proof in print

[Tazio]

I[t] may be true, I also dare say its happened plenty of times in the past. Teams balancing up wins between its drivers.

Why now is DJ so up in arms? At the same time as saying Red Bull are screwing Vettel over, after 4 years where he got a likely amount of help.

Anyway whatever dudes. Doesn't matter really. Lewis is dominant on wins, Nico is better in terms of consistency, and they are 10 points apart with 4 races left.

Seems like a decent title fight for whoever wins.

Right, absolutely, but their wasn't a whole boat load of passive aggressive bored idiots like the lot of us trying to get others to understand our reality in the competition, for the vast majority of them! :dozey: :angel:

[Doc Austin]

It's hard to believe that Abu Dabi could end up being more important than the classics at Monaco, Spa, Silverstone or Monza, but that's the way it is shaping up.

[Tazio]

Is there not a possibility that Nico is missing the feedback from the pit wall as to where Hamilton is quicker than him ?
DJ unless you have concrete evidence to back up your statements,then other members cannot take your assumptions seriously .The viewing public thought Nico was wrong in Monaco and in Spa ,by the boos he started to get on the podium.The boos obviously upset Nico ,from comments he made.But to win in a sporting way rather than by at the detriment of your team and team mate ,leaves a nasty taste in peoples mouth .
I look forward to you putting on here the print outs that back up your imaginary statements .
We eagerly await your proof in print

I rest my case! ;) :cool:

The ugliest picture of my scooter which I just shelled out $269 American today for the 1,000km service, which I guess isn't bad compared to what I read it was in England! :eek:

http://i.imgur.com/rs0d0ia.jpg

[Zico]

Why bother replying.

I guess its because Id prefer it if DJ (who is obviously a huge F1 fan and offers a lot of good knowledgable input to the forum discussions) to think things through rationally based on proper facts before coming up with unsubstantiated theories based on what appears to be nothing other than hearsay.

@Tazio- Yep, plausible is indeed the word I was looking for, thanks for the bold hint. ;) :D


@DJ- For the record ..IF.. Merc did actually know the full truth about Monaco & Spa were secretly punishing Nico in this way to even the scores because of it, it is obviously wrong but I would see it by far as the lesser of two evils than if Nico ended up winning the WDC through dirty tactics.

[steveaki13]

I agree DJ has plenty of interesting views and knowledge.

Its a shame he turns Garry Walker at times. Who he moans about a lot :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

I agree DJ has plenty of interesting views and knowledge.

Its a shame he turns Garry Walker at times. Who he moans about a lot
You have bigger fish to fry Steve. :rolleyes:
I'm on my 4th Newcastle, and it is only 2:45pm!!!
:sailor: "Annoy you at the race!" :p: :angel:

[journeyman racer]

Rosberg is solid, consistant and probably less hard on the car mechanically so for me the title is likely to be one decided by attrition and looks like it could go either way. Yes, Hamilton may be looking more settled, comfortable and quick in these recent races but this could quickly be turned on its head with reliability issues... then we have the double pointer final race in Abu Dhabi.
You're stuffed if you're relying on reliability to help you out. Rosberg has to do something.



It will be a travesty if either of them miss out on the WDC due to issues in Abu Dhabi, it makes the WDC even more of a lottery and devalues it massively... the concept disgusts me to the extent I'll be tempted to turn off the TV for the final race in protest. Anyone else also feel this way?
Nup.


I may be true, I also dare say its happened plenty of times in the past. Teams balancing up wins between its drivers.
.
With the possible exception of the Ferrari's in 02, is there a time where you suspect this has happened? Because I can't think of an occasion.


Right, absolutely, but their wasn't a whole boat load of passive aggressive bored idiots like the lot of us trying to get others to understand our reality in the competition
The most succinct description of a forum posters on the www ever! I'm left speechless. It's actually stopped me from concentrating on watching the support races at Bathurst.

[TheFamousEccles]

That's one sweet skoot, Tazio!

[Tazio]

Glad you agree mates ;) :angel:

[zako85]

Is Kvyat the new baby-Vettel?

On Saturday, Kvyat beat both of mother team Red Bull cars for P5 starting position, while Vettel didn't make it into Q3.

[Tazio]

He is; "The Real Deal Don Steel!" :grenade:

[Tazio]

As I mentioned before," one driver at Mercedes will be world champion, the other will have finished last in a two car contest" :laugh:

[Tazio]

Mark, if Fred signs with McLaren, please change my screen name to McTazio thanks in advance mate, Taz.
Yeah and Slash has already been given his walking papers from
Fred's Anglo/Mafia

[Tazio]

Big announcement coming out of Genoa!!!!

[steveaki13]

Long run down to Turn 2 before getting on the brakes. A chance of some position changes off the line.

Sadly though any skill to avoid first corner collisions is not needed here as 5-10 cars will cheat off onto the run off area at turn 2.

Looking forward to the race though

[steveaki13]

They have just been saying the SC will probably come out for any incident.

I can understand this for this weekend given emotions, however I believe this cannot happen for ever more. Each time any car breaks down, spins or crashes lightly we cannot have a SC come out. Otherwise some races will have 10 racing laps and 50 SC laps.

Its a tough call, but with the stupid unlapping rule, each SC that might need to be 1 or 2 laps now becomes 4 or 5 laps.

Some other solution is needed or continue as we have, but with localised speed limits in yellow flag sectors.

[steveaki13]

Anyway Morning Gurlz, guys, Donkeys, Dawgs

:)

[Koz]

Hey guys!

[steveaki13]

1 stopper today.

Get ready for cries of "1 stop only.... F1 is so boring, I miss the chewing gum tyres"

[steveaki13]

Hey McTaz

Stop drinking your Newcastle...... The race is about to start.

[donKey jote]

morning gurlz :wave:

[veeten]

:wave:

[Koz]

They have just been saying the SC will probably come out for any incident.

I can understand this for this weekend given emotions, however I believe this cannot happen for ever more. Each time any car breaks down, spins or crashes lightly we cannot have a SC come out. Otherwise some races will have 10 racing laps and 50 SC laps.

Its a tough call, but with the stupid unlapping rule, each SC that might need to be 1 or 2 laps now becomes 4 or 5 laps.

Some other solution is needed or continue as we have, but with localised speed limits in yellow flag sectors.

Firstly, yellow flags should mean something other than lift off so you don't go green in the sector.
Secondly, I think back to Germany and the marshals running on track. One absurdity to another.

Constant knee jerk reactions, as usual.

[veeten]

Here we .... GOOOOO!!!!!!!

[donKey jote]

bullshit :p

[donKey jote]

Nico screwed himself :dozey:

[steveaki13]

Rosberg running miles wide, locking brakes and needing to pit on lap 1????????

Why did he bother doing that. Ruining the race

[donKey jote]

Seb, Dan is faster than you :p

[dj_bytedisaster]

RIC demanding easy pass ...

[donKey jote]

alo going slow :(

[donKey jote]

hopefully deliberate...

[Zico]

Rosberg running miles wide, locking brakes and needing to pit on lap 1????????

Why did he bother doing that. Ruining the race

I guess thats what happens when you try to out brake one of the last of the late brakers on the grid. It is a pity but It hasn't totally ruined the race for me, there are some great battles brewing behind.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wasn't it that the one with track position gets the undercut? Why RIC in first? Hidden team order there.

[steveaki13]

I guess thats what happens when you try to out brake one of the last of the late brakers on the grid. It is a pity but It hasn't totally ruined the race for me, there are some great battles brewing behind.

Absolutely, but Nico seemed a bit impetuous there, not what the title fight needs.

[veeten]

Chilton out. So ends it for the 'Home team'... :(

[steveaki13]

Wasn't it that the one with track position gets the undercut? Why RIC in first? Hidden team order there.

Could be.

Ricciardo did do more laps on his softer tyres in Qualifying so might have worn them sooner.

[steveaki13]

Chilton out. So ends it for the 'Home team'... :(

Terrible Marussia week comes to an end. :(

[Warriwa]

Wasn't it that the one with track position gets the undercut? Why RIC in first? Hidden team order there.

No. Vettel was leaving Ricco behind. He had to pit. His tires were nine laps older. No team orders.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Could be.

Ricciardo did do more laps on his softer tyres in Qualifying so might have worn them sooner.

Still weird. In Canada they said that who's leading on the track comes in first. Unless they drive different strats the rules seem to have changed now that one of them is leaving...

[Koz]

No. Vettel was leaving Ricco behind. He had to pit. His tires were nine laps older. No team orders.

Considering Vettel hasn't stopped yet, I would say you've got it.

[steveaki13]

Ricciardo now is ahead of Seb is Vettel was to pit now.

Not looking great for Red Bull today though. 34 seconds off the lead on pace for Seb and 61 for Ricc.

[steveaki13]

Weird race today.

One of those races where every car spreads out from each other. No real battles on track.

Lets hope it livens up a bit at the end.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Either Vettel has suddenly learned how to Pirelli or he's out way too long :o

[donKey jote]

alo stayed out a lap too long :dozey:

[donKey jote]

and did a donkey pit :mad:

[donKey jote]

fell off the jack :rolleyes:

[steveaki13]

Rosberg only 4 seconds behind Seb, despite stopping once. Amazing pace from the Mercedes.

Hamilton too, just cruising around and 15 seconds clear

Seems in race trim, Mercedes are still a second clear a lap here.

[Koz]

Stoopid strategy from Williams yet again. Or was there a legitimate reason to pit on the first lap?

[dj_bytedisaster]

How long is Seb stretching this set of tyres? He must be running on the rims by now.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Stoopid strategy from Williams yet again. Or was there a legitimate reason to pit on the first lap?

They didn't pit on the first lap. Massa started 18th

[Warriwa]

How long is Seb stretching this set of tyres? He must be running on the rims by now.

Don't worry dj, Vettel will be flying with fresh tires at the end of this race.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Don't worry dj, Vettel will be flying with fresh tires at the end of this race.

He wasn't so hot with the primes all year :-/

[Koz]

They didn't pit on the first lap. Massa started 18th

He started on primes, they put him on options on the first lap.

[steveaki13]

They didn't pit on the first lap. Massa started 18th

He did, but he pitted with Rosberg on lap 1 and has just stopped for a second time.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, mission accomplished. They got RIC past him. No wonder he's leaving...

[steveaki13]

Bottas not fighting Rosberg at all.

Mercedes 1-2.

Hamilton cruising and is 20 seconds ahead, while Rosberg pushes and is second again by half distance.

Ridiculous pace

[steveaki13]

Seriously??? Penalising Grosjean for a racing incident????

One great battle and someone gets penalised for it. Seems like stewards are trying to stop drivers risking any contact.


PS I hated this circuit all weekend and the racing here is not helping improve its reputation in my eyes.

It seems like a classic "Poor modern circuit leads to poor modern racing"

[steveaki13]

and while I am moaning....

Teams again telling drivers how to drive. "Listen to beeps", Change engine modes.

Stupid rule change leaves everyone confused and getting ignored as usual

[dj_bytedisaster]

I wonder why the other teams still bother to show up. Only for that rare chance that both Merc's blow up or get shafted by the SC a la Hungary? If that continues next year, it'll make the Red Bull years look exciting. Remember 2012? 6 teams and 8 drivers winning races? We have 3 drivers from 2 teams this year. Exciting this...

[veeten]

more to Kob 'retiring' from the race, as it seems that Caterham is having supply issues. If Kamui crashed this weekend, they wouldn't be at USGP, muchless finish the season.

[Zico]

Seriously??? Penalising Grosjean for a racing incident????

One great battle and someone gets penalised for it. Seems like stewards are trying to stop drivers risking any contact.


Probably a bit harsh yes, I must admit I initially saw it as Grojos fault, Sutil was clearly ahead going into the corner and it looked like Romain should have yielded the position but as DC says Romain was carrying that speed and trajectory into the corner and probably couldn't move off it while on the brakes.

[steveaki13]

more to Kob 'retiring' from the race, as it seems that Caterham is having supply issues. If Kamui crashed this weekend, they wouldn't be at USGP, muchless finish the season.

I heard that too, a sad situation. How on earth can the be in F1 next year. Doesn't seem likely.

[Koz]

I am not sure about Grosjean, a part of me think it is because of his old reputation.
Sometimes they should just let somethings go.

[steveaki13]

I think its so harsh to be penalising so many drivers these days for contact. Some things are mistakes, not reckless.

Anyway Nico should get these to the end.

[Koz]

Putin and Bernie :o

[veeten]

and Putin the 'special guest' of Bernie in his viewing box... :p ;)

the phrase 'birds of a feather' just seems to fit, doesn't it?...

[longisland]

The translator is pretty cute

[Warriwa]

They were arguing .......''no no, I'm way more evil than you !! ''

[veeten]

'okay, everyone in for the photo, now...' :laugh:

[dj_bytedisaster]

Rosberg running the whole race on a single set of tyres, walking through the whole field and finishes 2nd with his finger up his nose. Ridiculous...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Funny fact of the race: Vettel was ahead of RIC before the pitstop, dropped back to 7secs behind RIC due ro being called in late and is now 6 secs behind, so they run essentially the same pace - well played, Red Bull.

[steveaki13]

Wow. I bet the rate the race thread will have a new loser soon.

[journeyman racer]

Ricciardo>Vettel

You know it's true.

[journeyman racer]

You know what would be funny?


Hamilton suffering a mechanical failure!

[donKey jote]

somebody wake me up...

next year :dozey:

[steveaki13]

You know what would be funny?


Hamilton suffering a mechanical failure!


I thought that

Imagine after his cruisy race if he retired on the last lap :D

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ricciardo>Vettel

You know it's true.

So why was RIC slower on the second stint then?

[dj_bytedisaster]

LOL Rosberg doing fastest lap on 52 laps old tyres on the penultimate lap :lol: (Although Bottas ultimately stole it on the last lap)

[steveaki13]

So why was RIC slower on the second stint then?

Traffic ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Traffic ;)

He barely managed to stay in the DRS window. The 'strategy' was nothing more than a thinly veiled team order.

[journeyman racer]

Hamilton' next win means he'll have the most wins by a British driver, surpassing Mansell. A poor reflection on modern day F1, how inferior drivers can become successful. As Vettel's career has proved.


Nice try by Rosberg. But I'm afraid to say Chaz Mostert>Nico Rosberg

[journeyman racer]

So why was RIC slower on the second stint then?

He's messing with German's heads

[journeyman racer]

Lauda should just stfu. Had enough of him.

[Koz]

Hamilton didn't shake Putin's hand?
He don't know who he is?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Hamilton' next win means he'll have the most wins by a British driver, surpassing Mansell. A poor reflection on modern day F1, how inferior drivers can become successful. As Vettel's career has proved.


Nice try by Rosberg. But I'm afraid to say Chaz Mostert>Nico Rosberg

You are quite a bitter man, are you not?

[steveaki13]

Hamilton' next win means he'll have the most wins by a British driver, surpassing Mansell. A poor reflection on modern day F1, how inferior drivers can become successful. As Vettel's career has proved.


Nice try by Rosberg. But I'm afraid to say Chaz Mostert>Nico Rosberg

I actually agree. Cars are bullet proof these days and with more GPs the fact that Hamilton is way ahead of the likes of Stewart says it all.

However it is not Hamilton's fault. He has done well to win so many races. 31 is a good effort

[Zico]

Awkward atmosphere in the room with Lewis, Nico and Valteri. Yep, things are definately back to normal between the two. :D

[journeyman racer]

I'm bitter? lol

I'm just saying. Chaz Mostert came from the rear of the grid... And WON!

Rosberg, 2nd. Not as good as winning.

[steveaki13]

Putin surprise, surprise the only world leader who is big headed enough to demand being on TV in the room with the drivers.

I thought Hamilton was ignoring him, but at last shaking his hand.


Putin not using this as a publicity stunt at all.

[Warriwa]

So why was RIC slower on the second stint then?

Cmon dj, there is not a conspiracy in everything. Ricco went into the pits on lap 12. When Vettel went into the pits Ricco's tires were twenty laps older and still Vettel couldn't close him down. They were not running similar pace. Ricco was faster on the second set. No conspiracy. Just faster. Vettel is lacking motivation.

[Koz]

Lauda should just stfu. Had enough of him.

What did he say?

[steveaki13]

What did he say?

Assuming it is what I heard, he said Hamilton is almost untouchable in the championship which is total BS

17 points ahead, 100 remaining. Hardly untouchable

[dj_bytedisaster]

Cmon dj, there is not a conspiracy in everything. Ricco went into the pits on lap 12. When Vettel went into the pits Ricco's tires were twenty laps older and still Vettel couldn't close him down. They were not running similar pace. Ricco was faster on the second set. No conspiracy. Just faster. Vettel is lacking motivation.

Erm. Laps don't count here. Rosberg ran the fastest lap on the penultimate lap on a set of tyres that was 51 laps old. The fact is, Vettel was left out way too long, he had to run more than twice as long as RIC on the softer tyres. That's a massive undercut they handed to Ricciardo and Vettel was right on the pace with RIC. Danny wasn't an ounce faster yet demanded a team order and got it. Seems like there are no hard feelings at Red Bull...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Assuming it is what I heard, he said Hamilton is almost untouchable in the championship which is total BS

17 points ahead, 100 remaining. Hardly untouchable

He is untouchable as the team decided long ago who's going to win. Expect more 'invisible contaminants'...

[Tazio]

.......something with only one ear :dozey:

[Zico]

Erm. Laps don't count here. Rosberg ran the fastest lap on the penultimate lap on a set of tyres that was 51 laps old. The fact is, Vettel was left out way too long, he had to run more than twice as long as RIC on the softer tyres. That's a massive undercut they handed to Ricciardo and Vettel was right on the pace with RIC. Danny wasn't an ounce faster yet demanded a team order and got it. Seems like there are no hard feelings at Red Bull...


Thats nothing compared to Mercedes telling Rosberg to lock up into the first corner and force a pitstop so that Lewis would have it easy.

;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel just announced on German TV, he'll not take part in Austin Quali and start from the pitlane and take a new engine instead. :o

[journeyman racer]

Raising the white flag?

soft****!

Embarrassing.

[Warriwa]

Erm. Laps don't count here. Rosberg ran the fastest lap on the penultimate lap on a set of tyres that was 51 laps old. The fact is, Vettel was left out way too long, he had to run more than twice as long as RIC on the softer tyres. That's a massive undercut they handed to Ricciardo and Vettel was right on the pace with RIC. Danny wasn't an ounce faster yet demanded a team order and got it. Seems like there are no hard feelings at Red Bull...

Do you really believe they forced Vettel to stay out that long, as if Seb didn't have a say in it? He qualified eleventh, which meant he had a fresh set of rubber. Of course he was going to stay out longer. It was his choice to pit whenever he wanted to. He was not pleading on the radio to come in.

[Tazio]

Putin reminds me of someone from Chicago :rolleyes:

[kfzmeister]

Vettel just announced on German TV, he'll not take part in Austin Quali and start from the pitlane and take a new engine instead. :o

Complete Power unit (turbo, ERS, etc.,...). All 6 components.

[rjbetty]

You are quite a bitter man, are you not?

Wow, coming from you dude? Can't ever just be that Hamilton and Ricciardo have done a better job than their team-mates?

[N. Jones]

Wow, coming from you dude? Can't ever just be that Hamilton and Ricciardo have done a better job than their team-mates?

Are we talking about the GP here??

All I know is, Rosberg locked up and finished second. Some other stuff happened but overall it was a race to forget.

[steveaki13]

We are talking about the race, but some are bitching and talking about every team suddenly conspiring to screw certain nations drivers.

[A FONDO]

Putin reminds me of someone from Chicago :rolleyes:

http://www.guessthe90sanswers.net/images/nineties/al-bundy.jpg

[Doc Austin]

He is untouchable as the team decided long ago who's going to win. Expect more 'invisible contaminants'...

Yeah, Mercedes sabotaged their own car.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk84/aleto_p/animals/black-spider-monkey.jpg

[Tazio]

http://www.guessthe90sanswers.net/images/nineties/al-bundy.jpg

:sailor: PML :rotflmao:

[jens]

Putin reminds me of someone from Chicago :rolleyes:

It felt like we saw Putin almost as much as racing at Sochi.:D The "Great Leaders" Putin and Bernie seemed to have a lot to discuss about! :bandit: That's my main memory of the race, besides Rosberg's lock-up...

The circuit reminded me some kind of a mix between Valencia and Yeongam...

[jens]

You know what would be funny?


Hamilton suffering a mechanical failure!


Well, who knows, maybe the Goddess of Luck will save this failure for the double points finale...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yeah, Mercedes sabotaged their own car.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk84/aleto_p/animals/black-spider-monkey.jpg

Neither did people think they're going to fix race results, yet they did. Two people from Mercedes confirmed that part of Nico's 'undisclosed punishment' after Spa was to relinquish a win to Lewis should the situation arise (ROS and HAM in 1,2). While those two people used inofficial channels to communicate this information, there is no reason to think two unrelated folks within the Mercedes team are spreading the same disinformation. Gives a whole new layer of complexity to Toto Wolff's grin when Nico had his second 'mistake' at Monza.

[airshifter]

Total domination by Mercedes once again. Nico might have screwed his race at the first corner, but with tire wear not being a factor at the track, he got away with it. Lucky break.

I'm wondering why we don't have a bunch of people jumping for joy during a race tires weren't a factor? Everyone blamed the results on tires when they were wearing quickly, now that they aren't we had a boring race.

Button quietly drove to a good finish, and Mag did the same. Fred didn't punk Kimi quite as bad as usual, and Ferrari clearly showed some legs over the Renault powered cars at this track. I was actually surprised that the good handling of the RB didn't help them more, but it seemed that both Seb and Daniel had their hands full to get the positions they finished in.

Ricciardo punks Seb once again, and Lewis punked Nico once again. This story seems to be a trend. :)



Looking forward to the USGP and hoping that the track levels the field a bit. Knowing that the Mercedes powered cars will finish towards the front is as boring as the years of Ferrari and RB domination.

[Doc Austin]

Neither did people think they're going to fix race results, yet they did. Two people from Mercedes confirmed that part of Nico's 'undisclosed punishment' after Spa was to relinquish a win to Lewis should the situation arise (ROS and HAM in 1,2).

Until you can provide a credible link that proves this, it's just bullshit and you know it.

What? Are we supposed to take your word for it?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ricciardo punks Seb once again, and Lewis punked Nico once again. This story seems to be a trend. :)


In case you actually missed the race. Seb, starting from 4 positions behind Ricciardo was actually ahead of him after less than 10 laps. RIC demanded team orders via radio, which Seb answered by shaking him out of DRS range in less than two laps. He was then maneuvred ahead by Red Bull giving him a massive undercut. Seven seconds ahead of Vettel after the latter's way too late pitstop, Ricciardo lost further three seconds over he rest of the race.

It's true, Vettel got punked, but by the classless clowns behind the pit wall. No points for guessing why he's leaving the team. RB have forgotten awfully quick, who gave both their teams the first win and won 39 GPs and 4 titles for them. F1 has never been sentimental, but RB shafted him publicly for having the audacity to going to another team and that's an utter lack of class. The day will come when Danny RIC will be thrown to the wayside the same way when the next shiny new driver comes along.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Until you can provide a credible link that proves this, it's just bullshit and you know it.

What? Are we supposed to take your word for it?

What do you expect me to do? Name the individuals so they can be sacked?

[Doc Austin]

What do you expect me to do? Name the individuals so they can be sacked?

Nah. Just keep making claims you can't back up. It's fun to watch.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Nah. Just keep making claims you can't back up. It's fun to watch.

You may believe in your world, which is your god-given right - I believe in mine.

[Doc Austin]

You may believe in your world, which is your god-given right - I believe in mine.

You're definitely in your own little word on this for sure.

How many people believe Ted's bullshit story?

So Mercedes conspires to fix races and Red Bull conspires to screw Vettel .... does that about cover it or is there more?

You must be utter hell on the alien abduction forums.

[rjbetty]

Two people from McLaren told me there is a ufo being hidden deep inside their Technology Centre actually. ;)

My contacts tell me that in fact, this may be the true reason the new base was built in the first place.


btw didn't Mercedes members also let slip Rosberg did go off on purpose in Monaco? Doesn't that count though?

[dj_bytedisaster]

You're definitely in your own little word on this for sure.

How many people believe Ted's bullshit story?

So Mercedes conspires to fix races and Red Bull conspires to screw Vettel .... does that about cover it or is there more?

You must be utter hell on the alien abduction forums.

You can mock me all you want. It's easy to mock people on an internet forum. But once you get in contact with people, who actually work in F1, you'll quickly realize that there's an awful lot of skullduggery going on behind the scenes.
You are perfectly within your rights not to believe me, but calling me a nutter, just because I can't publish the telephone number of the guys who told us, is a bit rich.
Since most of the teams run a corporate stream-lined PR department these days, many team members build inofficial contacts to independent sources, like TJ13 to get stories out without having them censored by the PR drones and you'd be surprised how far up the food chain some of these guys are. At one point we got daily updates from Caterham guys. We had the story about the Bailiffs ransacking Leafield when the buggers were still at it. You can believe it or you can decline to do so, that's everybody's right, but don't assume you can tell if I'm a nutter.
After all, three years ago you'd have called me a nutter for insinuating that the NSA engages in wide-spread observation of their own people and even taps into the private phones of allied heads of state. We know better now, don't we? Not that I knew before, but the point is - just because something sounds impossible to you, it doesn't mean that it actually is impossible.

[Doc Austin]

You can mock me all you want. It's easy to mock people on an internet forum.

In an intellectual discussion, you are expected to back up your claims. That's how it works and you aren't up to it.

If you can't back it up, don't say it. Otherwise, people are right to question your credibility on the issue.

[Doc Austin]

OK, so Mercedes is fixing races and Red Bull is screwing Vettel, right?


http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130521224912/alienfilm/images/7/77/ThreeGreys.jpg

[steveaki13]

who actually work in F1, you'll quickly realize that there's an awful lot of skullduggery going on behind the scenes.


If this is the case, then surely its fair to assume Vettel got an unfair advantage to help him win his 4 titles?

Which I have no issue with, but you seem to dismiss anything like that in the Vettel years and blast anyone who suggested he was not quite as good as 4 titles suggest.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If this is the case, then surely its fair to assume Vettel got an unfair advantage to help him win his 4 titles?

Which I have no issue with, but you seem to dismiss anything like that in the Vettel years and blast anyone who suggested he was not quite as good as 4 titles suggest.

He would have won the four titles regardless, as Mark never managed to adapt to the counter-intuitive driving style needed to make the EBD cars work. But in hindsight, yes, I defended RB too much. They saw Mark had problems adapting and they relegated his car to an afterthought after 2010. I simply didn't believe they'd be so cynical, but seeing how this season went and the rather cynical comments we got from within RB, I had to revise my opinion. It's a ruthless operation. Just ask Vergne.

[Duncan]

Vettel just announced on German TV, he'll not take part in Austin Quali and start from the pitlane and take a new engine instead. :o

Interesting. Writeup here: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-to-start-race-from-pitlane-in-austin/

Doesn't make sense, though; the way the rule is being applied, you have to actually lose 10 grid places for the penalty to have been considered to have been taken, and if you qualify at the back you will have to serve the 10 grid spot penalty (or however many places are left) in the following race.

I wonder if we'll see drivers strategically taking a new engine in Brasil, and then touring around just to make sure they have a fresh engine for the double-points race in Abu Dhabi?

[jens]

So it turns out Dj is actually an F1 insider? Who would have thought? :D

Anyway, I take it as there is always some kind of inequality in competition. It is natural, not something terribly malicious. Even inside the same team. Even if the car configurations of team-mates are roughly the same, they have different race engineers and race team to work on their cars. Teams have different resources, and resources are something, which are always lacking. Team may be struggling to develop enough spare parts that both drivers can consistently get them, because development speed is very high and it is difficult to keep up with the production pace.

Based on priorities of the team, they may need to take tough decisions and put the best people to work on #1 driver's car. There is also the matter of how well can each individual (driver) gel with the team and work together with whichever people are there in the team. Already looking at the personalities, in my view there is no doubt Ricciardo with his easy-going attitude fits Red Bull far better than the somewhat grumpy Webber did. It may look like a superficial thing (why does his personality matter on a racing track?!), but all small details make a difference.

[The Black Knight]

Congrats to Mercedes on finally bagging the constructors. What a performance it has been from that team throughout the year. Thoroughly deserved to win the WDC, I think from the first race there was never any doubt.

Congrats to Russia on conjuring up the most boring race track since Valencia. To be fair I think the super durable Pirelli's had something to do with that but I'd rather a race like that than a race where the tires go off for the hell of it.

It amazes me taht the WDC is still so close. Hamilton has scored 9 race wins to Nico's 4 and there's still only 17 points between them. The good news for Hamilton is that he needs only 1 more race win and two second places to win the WDC and it doesn't matter where he does it either so the barring reliability issues, the championship is in his hand. I do agree with Martin Brundle and the lads though, there appears something different about Hamilton the last couple of races, a steely determination I haven't seen before. I think reliability is the only thing that can stop him winning this now and based on events throughout the year and unsavory tactics Nico has used, I don't think anyone can deny he is deserving of the 2014 title.

[steveaki13]

I don't think anyone can deny he is deserving of the 2014 title.

I am sure a few can :p

[journeyman racer]

Hamilton...needs only 1 more race win and two second places to win the WDC. I don't think anyone can deny he is deserving of the 2014 title.
Unlike the 08 title...

[The Black Knight]

Unlike the 08 title...

And to think, if only Felipe Massa hadn't ran out of talent and spun about 50 times in Silverstone 2008, he would have been champion. Oh well, guess the better man won both that race and the title :D

[zako85]

It should be a well-deserved title win for Hamilton without doubt. Rosberg's mistakes the last few races just look ridiculous.

[zako85]

He would have won the four titles regardless, as Mark never managed to adapt to the counter-intuitive driving style needed to make the EBD cars work. But in hindsight, yes, I defended RB too much.

I think Mark's problems go beyond the intuition. For one, Mark has earned a reputation of someone who started races really poorly. He had so many poor starts and went backwards before the first corner of race so often in the last couple of years that some Vettel haters on the forums started arguing that Vettel's car has some kind of launch control system, while Webber does not have it. Silly rumor, but it underscores the underlying problem with Webber.

[zako85]

. I think reliability is the only thing that can stop him winning this now and based on events throughout the year and unsavory tactics Nico has used, I don't think anyone can deny he is deserving of the 2014 title.


Hah.. just imagine what if Hamilton's car breaks in Abu Dhabi and then Rosberg earns 50 points. Sad, but possible.

[Ranger]

He would have won the four titles regardless, as Mark never managed to adapt to the counter-intuitive driving style needed to make the EBD cars work. But in hindsight, yes, I defended RB too much. They saw Mark had problems adapting and they relegated his car to an afterthought after 2010. I simply didn't believe they'd be so cynical, but seeing how this season went and the rather cynical comments we got from within RB, I had to revise my opinion. It's a ruthless operation. Just ask Vergne.

This I agree with. In hindsight, I'm not sure anyone else could driven those EBD cars like Vettel did, for the reasons you just mentioned.

It remains to be seen whether Vettel can replicate the EBD-era form at Ferrari in years ahead.

[journeyman racer]

And to think, if only Felipe Massa hadn't ran out of talent and spun about 50 times in Silverstone 2008, he would have been champion. Oh well, guess the better man won both that race and the title :D
I like your cherry picking. You have a talent for it. BUt anyway, It was not 50. You're just exaggerating. Not for the first time.

Even if he did spin 50 times. He was only trying to emulate the biggest fluke win in motorsport (Even bigger than Paul Morris winning Bathurst), which was Hamilton's 08 Monaco win.

As ordinary Massa was that day. It wasn't as dumb as ploughing into a car stationary at a red light. Damn! Hamilton was really, really lucky that year. And now, he has a car which is more superior than what a lot of other champs have had in comparison. Very lucky.

[The Black Knight]

I like you're cherry picking. You have a talent for it. BUt anyway, It was not 50. You're just exaggerating. Not for the first time.

Even if he did spin 50 times. He was only trying to emulate the biggest fluke win in motorsport (Even bigger than Paul Morris winning Bathurst), which was Hamilton's 08 Monaco win.

As ordinary Massa was that day. It wasn't as dumb as ploughing into a car stationary at a red light. Damn! Hamilton was really, really lucky that year. And now, he has a car which is more superior than what a lot of other champs have had in comparison. Very lucky.

Well, I just remember he spun about 5 times in something like the first 4 laps. I think that is a record by itself to be honest. I think you are exaggerating by calling Masaa ordinary that day. He was far from ordinary. He wasn't even at the level of an F1 driver that day. So should the WDC really hold the record for the worst drive of the year? I don't think so. In fact, I think to be a WDC you should be up there with the best all the time. Having an off race one can deal with, but having a drive that embarrasses yourself? That's definitely not something worthy of a WDC. That race in Silverstone was so embarrassing that it is reason enough for Hamilton to deserve the WDC.

I don't remembe the red light incident of Monaco however, so if you've a video feel free to post it. Otherwise, I'm sure I have that race recorded somewhere at home and can look at it. I wouldn't call it luck that Hamilton is in the top car now. He made a calculated decision on where he was going and it paid off. It's a result of a lot of hard work. It's not just by chance that Hamilton has won a race every year he has been in F1, it's simply because he is the best at getting the most out of a car along with Alonso.

[The Black Knight]

Hah.. just imagine what if Hamilton's car breaks in Abu Dhabi and then Rosberg earns 50 points. Sad, but possible.

That is actually what I am worried about. I actually am not sure I'd watch F1 ever again if a stupid rule like double points swayed the championship.

Looking at this year, I think actually that Bernie's medal system wasn't so bad after all.

[steveaki13]

I like you're cherry picking. You have a talent for it. BUt anyway, It was not 50. You're just exaggerating. Not for the first time.

Even if he did spin 50 times. He was only trying to emulate the biggest fluke win in motorsport (Even bigger than Paul Morris winning Bathurst), which was Hamilton's 08 Monaco win.

As ordinary Massa was that day. It wasn't as dumb as ploughing into a car stationary at a red light. Damn! Hamilton was really, really lucky that year. And now, he has a car which is more superior than what a lot of other champs have had in comparison. Very lucky.

I agree entirely. I am generally a Hamilton fan, but he got so lucky with that title, but in the end he won it and deserved it.

Same as if Hamilton wins the next 2 races but retires in Abu Dhabi and Rosberg nicks it. Rosberg will deserve it because its the rules and most points win.

Of course the double points this season is stupid and which ever driver gets screwed by it is also going to be a bit unlucky.


Rosberg (the elder) won his title with 1 win wasn't it. That might be seen as lucky, but until the medal system comes in, he scored most points and win the 1982 title.

Same as Hamilton 08, Button 09 who are both considered lucky.

Same also as Nico if he wins this season

[steveaki13]

Well, I just remember he spun about 5 times in something like the first 4 laps.


Sorry to bang a point, I was at the British GP 2008 so it sticks in my mind.

He spun 4 times in the whole race that I remember, not the first 4 laps

[jens]

Doesn't really matter how many times Massa spun, since he was dog slow in that race anyway, about on level with Ide. However, that's not the criteria whether he deserved the title or not, because title is won by the amount of points in the end and if you collected more points than the others from other races, it's fine. I am sure many champions have had truly embarrassing races, where they were ridiculous, even if such race didn't occur in their championship winning season.

About 2008. Massa had the faster, but also a more unreliable car. So in the end it somewhat balanced out. Hamilton was probably the more talented of the two, but didn't have his best season either, throwing several results away. So that's how the points remained close till the end.

I think Hamilton has been better than Rosberg this year, but if Rosberg gets lucky to win it in the end, then he is the champion. Championship is a harsh cold competition and points collecting is an emotionless activity. Points collecting in itself doesn't include "deservedness", it is just a fact. If you have collected most points, you are the champion. And that's really it. "That's racing" as the saying goes. The rest of the discussions are for us, human beings, about race situations, luck, lack of luck, fairness, deservedness, and so on.:)

[Storm]

And to think, if only Felipe Massa hadn't ran out of talent and spun about 50 times in Silverstone 2008, he would have been champion. Oh well, guess the better man won both that race and the title :D


Or if Glock hadn't just forgotten how to defend a single corner at Interlagos.....

[Mintexmemory]

Or if Glock hadn't just forgotten how to defend a single corner at Interlagos.....

Except it's impossible when you are on bald dries in the wet :)

[airshifter]

In case you actually missed the race. Seb, starting from 4 positions behind Ricciardo was actually ahead of him after less than 10 laps. RIC demanded team orders via radio, which Seb answered by shaking him out of DRS range in less than two laps. He was then maneuvred ahead by Red Bull giving him a massive undercut. Seven seconds ahead of Vettel after the latter's way too late pitstop, Ricciardo lost further three seconds over he rest of the race.

It's true, Vettel got punked, but by the classless clowns behind the pit wall. No points for guessing why he's leaving the team. RB have forgotten awfully quick, who gave both their teams the first win and won 39 GPs and 4 titles for them. F1 has never been sentimental, but RB shafted him publicly for having the audacity to going to another team and that's an utter lack of class. The day will come when Danny RIC will be thrown to the wayside the same way when the next shiny new driver comes along.

In case you actually missed qualification, that is why Vettel started back in the pack. And you apparently have missed that I don't buy into the conspiracy theories. Nor did I buy into them when Vettel was kicking Webbers tail in the same car.

I can accept that any team would be smart to put their best talent on the side of the pit performing better, but that is common sense. To claim that teams intentionally sabotage one driver when so much money is at stake with the constructors title is just lunacy IMO.

Team orders are now legal. If they prefer one driver they could simple order the other to allow a pass on track when it suits them.

[airshifter]

Or if Glock hadn't just forgotten how to defend a single corner at Interlagos.....

Well if Lewis had defended from Vettel we couldn't blame it on Glock for being close though! ;)

And although he didn't get the title, Felipe was proud and happy to have done his best. If he could keep that motivation maybe he could put another season together one of these years, but I think it is all gone now.

[Duncan]

Well if Lewis had defended from Vettel we couldn't blame it on Glock for being close though! ;)

And although he didn't get the title, Felipe was proud and happy to have done his best. If he could keep that motivation maybe he could put another season together one of these years, but I think it is all gone now.

I distinctly remember Felipe looking anything but proud and happy as he stood on the podium at Interlagos. He probably holds the record for the driver looking most miserable while standing on the top step of the podium at his home Grand Prix ;)

[The Black Knight]

Sorry to bang a point, I was at the British GP 2008 so it sticks in my mind.

He spun 4 times in the whole race that I remember, not the first 4 laps

I am pretty sure he spun more than 4 times but was a long while ago so my memory is a little hazy on it. Either way, it's not befitting of a champion. Once you'll get over but 4 times? That's just humiliating.

[zako85]

And so this probably was the most boring race of year so far?

[journeyman racer]

I am pretty sure he spun more than 4 times but was a long while ago so my memory is a little hazy on it. Either way, it's not befitting of a champion. Once you'll get over but 4 times? That's just humiliating.
lol As if you'd know what is befitting of a champion.

Just remember. Hamilton ploughed in the back of a car that was stationary at a red light. The fact an F1 champ can do that is a reflection of the overall lesser standard of the "top" current day drivers.

[journeyman racer]

That is actually what I am worried about. I actually am not sure I'd watch F1 ever again if a stupid rule like double points swayed the championship.
In an alternate universe. Rosberg has 9 wins to Hamilton's 4. You're posting what a great idea having a last race double points is, because it allows Hamilton to still be in the hunt for the title.


Looking at this year, I think actually that Bernie's medal system wasn't so bad after all.
Of course you do. You're biased. But that also means that Massa is the 08 champ.

[rjbetty]

In an alternate universe. Rosberg has 9 wins to Hamilton's 4.

WTF?

By that thinking, in another universe Hamilton has won every race this year as he has had the capability to. Rosberg hasn't really I'm afraid.

Also, Lewis has now twice had 4 wins in a row. Nico has never won 2 in a row. And Lewis has had his share of problems this year.

So desperate are his detractors to put him down, they are having to resort to increasingly desperate measures to do so.

Did you know that any and every time Lewis beats Nico, it's because Nico is serving a continuing punishment, for his "honest-to-God guv" mistakes this year. But any time Nico does beat Lewis, it's clearly because the punishment has been temporarily lifted until the next time Lewis beats Nico, signifying the punishment is back on again. And so forth...

This is obviously the absolute truth since Rosberg is just THAT good, it's preposterous to suggest a numpty like Lewis could ever outdrive him fair and square.

[Doc Austin]

That is actually what I am worried about (double points). I actually am not sure I'd watch F1 ever again if a stupid rule like double points swayed the championship.

The rules are the same for everyone and everyone knew what the points system was going in. I think double points is a fake thing to keep the championship alive, but it's not really unfair to anyone because anyone can benefit from it and anyone can be screwed by it.

Having said that, I think it is a travesty that Abu Dabi is more important than Monoco, Silverstone, Spa, or Monza. If you are going to have double points races, I believe they should be the classics.

[The Black Knight]

In an alternate universe. Rosberg has 9 wins to Hamilton's 4. You're posting what a great idea having a last race double points is, because it allows Hamilton to still be in the hunt for the title.


Of course you do. You're biased. But that also means that Massa is the 08 champ.

Incorrect. I have always opposed the double points system and I still do.

[The Black Knight]

lol As if you'd know what is befitting of a champion.

Just remember. Hamilton ploughed in the back of a car that was stationary at a red light. The fact an F1 champ can do that is a reflection of the overall lesser standard of the "top" current day drivers.

Oh yawn, are you one of these guys that believe that the talent out there is lesser than it was in the day of Senna? That argument is so boring man. Drivers are fitter and more well prepared for F1 nowadays than they were before. The cars are easier to driver but that doesn't mean they are any lesser drivers. Senna made some stupid mistakes in his career, they all do. I'm not sure I ever remember any champion spinning 4 times in one race though.

[N. Jones]

lol As if you'd know what is befitting of a champion.

Just remember. Hamilton ploughed in the back of a car that was stationary at a red light. The fact an F1 champ can do that is a reflection of the overall lesser standard of the "top" current day drivers.

...and Michael drove into Villeneuve in '97.
...and Prost and Senna ran into each other not once, but twice!

So what does it mater what Hamilton did? He is fighting just as hard as any other talented driver who had a chance to win the WDC.

[N. Jones]

Also, who cares is Massa spun multiple times in Britain that year? He hates mixed conditions. I don't see that as a big deal.

[Doc Austin]

...and Michael drove into Villeneuve in '97.
...and Prost and Senna ran into each other not once, but twice!

And Ned Jarret hit the pace car when he had a ten lap lead!

Scott Dixon spun on the main straight at Indy.....under yellow!

Mario Andretti hit the safety truck and then Michael hit him!

Jeff Andretti hit an ambulance!

Emerson Fittipaldi spun out of the lead at Milwaukee while shaking his fist at someone!

Roberto Gurrera spun out of the Indy 500 from pole position......on the parade lap.

Scott Sharp won the pole at Indy and hit the wall in the very first turn.

Paul Tracy crashed out of a two lap lead at Phoenix!

I mean, who hasn't been a dumbass in a race car at least once?

[N. Jones]

AND, Michael got run over by a Minardi as the cars were taking the grid at the inaugural Chinese GP.

Michael also spun, like so many other drivers over the years, while the safety car was out at some race.... hahaha I forgot which one!

[N. Jones]

Oh yeah!
Last year Juan Pablo Montoya ran into the fuel cleanup or track drying truck while a NASCAR raced was stopped and there was no other car on track!!

[Robinho]

And vettel ran up the back of Webber under safety car in Japan, coulthard spun on the parade lap in the Williams in Portugal IIRC in his debut year. Montoya and Schumacher crashed I to each other in the tunnel in Monaco, on the parade lap (or under safety car).

[journeyman racer]

WTF?
By that thinking, in another universe Hamilton has won every race this year as he has had the capability to.

Oh no! What a horrible place.


So desperate are his detractors to put him down, they are having to resort to increasingly desperate measures to do so.
Who are his detractors, and what are they saying?

[journeyman racer]

Oh yawn, are you one of these guys that believe that the talent out there is lesser than it was in the day of Senna? That argument is so boring man.
Why mention Senna? Just say 80s/90s? But anyway. There no question that previous generation of drivers (at least the recognised top guys), are superiors to the current mob.

Circuits these days a more forgiving to driver error. In fact, they're now designed to take into account modern day drivers inferior level of ability. There's was a wider variety of circuits. This leads to a greater challenge overall, over a season. Now? Almost all the circuits have the similar characteristics. A lesser season long challenge.

There's an assumed knowledge back then of how to drive on a track. Nowadays drivers are having to be told everything. I mean, the stringent safety car rules nowadays is due to the modern day drivers inferior lack of comprehension of actual discipline of driving.

Cars back before 94, were more raucous and fragile. Even in the best car, drivers had to manage them throughout the race. Nowadays, driving the cars are a more straightforward exercise. It requires less overall ability than in the past.


Drivers are fitter and more well prepared for F1 nowadays than they were before. The cars are easier to driver but that doesn't mean they are any lesser drivers. Senna made some stupid mistakes in his career, they all do. I'm not sure I ever remember any champion spinning 4 times in one race though.
Again. Why single out Senna?

Fitness has nothing to do with the skill of driving.

Drivers have to be better prepared because they are inferior.

[journeyman racer]

...and Michael drove into Villeneuve in '97.
...and Prost and Senna ran into each other not once, but twice!

So what does it mater what Hamilton did? He is fighting just as hard as any other talented driver who had a chance to win the WDC.
Come on Bud. What are you trying to justify? There are some principles of driving that must be adhered to. Otherwise. it's an inferior level of driving.

It's one thing for a guy to get caught up with the performance of his car and go for a banzai move that is not successful. But it's a whole other thing when a guy has such a lack of understanding of un/specified rules. To you it's no big deal. It's just something that happens on tv. But if you were the victim of such a blatantly dumb act, you'd be ropable. The fact the guy who went on to win the F1 title did that. Is a poor reflection of who did it. The standard of the season overall. And even motorsport generally.

3) Craig Lowndes dumping a load of sand on the racing line at Wanneroo, after an off. It cost Marcos Ambros a win.

2) Hamilton - 08 Canada

1) Paul Tracy at San Jose.

[Doc Austin]

1) Paul Tracy at San Jose.

Absolutely the most stupidly dangerous, deliberate thing I have ever seen anyone do. Of course, while still wishing the best for Michael, his swerve on Hakkinen on the fastest part of the track at Spa was pretty damm stupid too and he could have killed them both very easily.

You know, the drivers did dumb things back in the golden years too, though I don't recall anything that Clark, Gurney or Stewart did. I think those were the real drivers and everyone since has had to live up to that.

Alain Prost spun off at Imola on the formation lap.

Senna crashed at Monaco while almost a lap ahead.

Perhaps the biggest gaffe was JR Hildebrand crashing on the last turn of the Indy 500.

Some rednheck fan steals the pace car and drives around Talladega while the race is going on!

Senna had checked out at Adelaide, but slams into the back of (I believe) Brundle in low visibility. Many people want to hold Senna up as some sort of god, but he made many dumb mistakes, sometimes as a result of pushing too hard. You know, if Senna can get killed, maybe this sport is so difficult that even the very best drivers can mess up.

So, if you have Prost flying off on the formation lap, and Senna crashing with no other cars in sight, perhaps it is time to give the other drivers some slack when they do stupid things. That or stop holding those two in such high regard.

Then, there's the tragic stupid stuff that's not even funny. Jackie Ickx was involved in fivefatal incidents. One of them was when Stefan Belof tried to pass Ickx around the outside of Eau Rouge, with predictably fatal results. At leMans 1970, Ickx hit a barrier at night and killed a marshall that was sleeping where he was not supposed to be. In both cases, someone did something stupid and got themselves killed. there's more too, but I can't remember it all right now. I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

[denkimi]

Why mention Senna? Just say 80s/90s? But anyway. There no question that previous generation of drivers (at least the recognised top guys), are superiors to the current mob.

Circuits these days a more forgiving to driver error. In fact, they're now designed to take into account modern day drivers inferior level of ability. There's was a wider variety of circuits. This leads to a greater challenge overall, over a season. Now? Almost all the circuits have the similar characteristics. A lesser season long challenge.

There's an assumed knowledge back then of how to drive on a track. Nowadays drivers are having to be told everything. I mean, the stringent safety car rules nowadays is due to the modern day drivers inferior lack of comprehension of actual discipline of driving.

Cars back before 94, were more raucous and fragile. Even in the best car, drivers had to manage them throughout the race. Nowadays, driving the cars are a more straightforward exercise. It requires less overall ability than in the past.


drivers adapt to circuits. if there's a wall in the exit of the corner, they will be carefull. if there's room to go off, they will push more. this has nothing to do with the level of driving skill. on the other hand are the cars of today way more complicated and thus harder to drive than those of the past.

imo is the average level nowadays higher than 20 years ago, but are the best of the best still on the same level.

[The Black Knight]

Why mention Senna? Just say 80s/90s? But anyway. There no question that previous generation of drivers (at least the recognised top guys), are superiors to the current mob.

Circuits these days a more forgiving to driver error. In fact, they're now designed to take into account modern day drivers inferior level of ability. There's was a wider variety of circuits. This leads to a greater challenge overall, over a season. Now? Almost all the circuits have the similar characteristics. A lesser season long challenge.

There's an assumed knowledge back then of how to drive on a track. Nowadays drivers are having to be told everything. I mean, the stringent safety car rules nowadays is due to the modern day drivers inferior lack of comprehension of actual discipline of driving.

Cars back before 94, were more raucous and fragile. Even in the best car, drivers had to manage them throughout the race. Nowadays, driving the cars are a more straightforward exercise. It requires less overall ability than in the past.


Again. Why single out Senna?

Fitness has nothing to do with the skill of driving.

Drivers have to be better prepared because they are inferior.


I single out Senna because most people, incorrectly in my opinion, hail him as a racing God but looking back on the races he made plenty of mistakes and I certainly don't regard him as the greatest of all time.

I disagree with your assertion that drivers nowadays are easier to driver. I would say quite the opposite. Drivers are required to multi-task constantly in todays cars. They have buttons that they use to affect balance, brake bias etc. They are far more complicated beasts than they were 20 years ago. I regard the drivers of today in much higher regard than those 20 years ago. The big difference is that drivers are much more prepared nowadays than they were back in the good old days and the standard for entering F1 is higher with F1 driver programs by the likes of RBR, McLaren and Ferrari.

Now to your comment that "Fitness has nothing to do with the skill of driving" This has to be the worst comment I've ever read on this forum. Drivers are athletes, especially nowadays since Schumacher came on board and raised the fitness level to that never seen before in F1. The fitter you are, the sharper you are. The sharper you are, the quicker your reflexes, the better you're able to focus. The benefits of being fit are massive and it translates to your skill on the race track. Being fit enables a person to harness their skill further and make the maximum from the ability they have. For a F1 fan to say being fit has nothing to do with the skill of driving really boggles my mind. If they weren't fit they wouldn't be able to drive today's cars and show their skill.

I agree with your point about the circuits being more forgiving now. I don't like this but if it is in the interests of safety then I am okay with it. This doesn't mean the drivers have less skill it just means that they can afford to make a mistake now whereas they couldn't before so now we see them making these mistakes and running wide because they know they can afford to do so while finding the limit, whereas in the past they couldn't afford those mistakes. That's nothing to do with skill, that's just a by-product of circuits being safer nowadays. It's also part of a racing drivers job, to find every advantage that they can and if they have to run wide a couple of times to do that, then so be it. It is what they are employed to do :)

[jens]

The discussion is so vastly off-topic here that I don't go much into it.

Just saying that the drivers nowadays can't be considered less talented or skilled than the drivers of past eras. That doesn't make much sense. Just that the era itself is different and drivers have adapted to different circumstances. If anything, they have got more advanced special training than in the faraway past days.

But a different thing to claim would be that decades ago drivers needed more sheer bravery to go into motorsports and try out a career - and I guess the answer to it could be "yes"!

[Doc Austin]

Just saying that the drivers nowadays can't be considered less talented or skilled than the drivers of past eras. Just that the era itself is different and drivers have adapted to different circumstances. If anything, they have got more advanced special training than in the faraway past days.

In any era, you have to take the technologies, teams and equipment that are available to you and make the best out of it, and beat the drivers that are put in front of you.


But a different thing to claim would be that decades ago drivers needed more sheer bravery to go into motorsports and try out a career - and I guess the answer to it could be "yes"!

If you go back to late 60s/early 70s times, safety was an afterthought and a joke. Fully one third of the 1971 season opening Formula One starting grid was dead before the year was out, and this does not include injuries....we're just talking about death here.

Looking back on safety in those times we are horrified, but then again, maybe we did not know any better. Again, we dealt with what was put in front of us, and it was a case of either you wanted to race badly enough to accept it, or you didn't. It's the same thing today, but as we have seen with Jules' Bianchi, it takes a bizarre set of circumstances to lead to a serious accident.

Safety is so good now days that I do not remember the last time (before Jules, of course) we have had someone badly hurt. While this is a good ting, it does make it difficult to hold today's drives up and compare them to drivers from the Stewart/Clark/Hill era, especially when it comes to who faced the most danger. It's hard to imagine any of those guys could have raced as long as Rubens did and lived to tell about it.

[journeyman racer]

Absolutely the most stupidly dangerous, deliberate thing I have ever seen anyone do. Of course, while still wishing the best for Michael, his swerve on Hakkinen on the fastest part of the track at Spa was pretty damm stupid too and he could have killed them both very easily.

You know, the drivers did dumb things back in the golden years too, though I don't recall anything that Clark, Gurney or Stewart did. I think those were the real drivers and everyone since has had to live up to that.

Alain Prost spun off at Imola on the formation lap.

Senna crashed at Monaco while almost a lap ahead.

Perhaps the biggest gaffe was JR Hildebrand crashing on the last turn of the Indy 500.

Some rednheck fan steals the pace car and drives around Talladega while the race is going on!

Senna had checked out at Adelaide, but slams into the back of (I believe) Brundle in low visibility. Many people want to hold Senna up as some sort of god, but he made many dumb mistakes, sometimes as a result of pushing too hard. You know, if Senna can get killed, maybe this sport is so difficult that even the very best drivers can mess up.

So, if you have Prost flying off on the formation lap, and Senna crashing with no other cars in sight, perhaps it is time to give the other drivers some slack when they do stupid things. That or stop holding those two in such high regard.

Then, there's the tragic stupid stuff that's not even funny. Jackie Ickx was involved in fivefatal incidents. One of them was when Stefan Belof tried to pass Ickx around the outside of Eau Rouge, with predictably fatal results. At leMans 1970, Ickx hit a barrier at night and killed a marshall that was sleeping where he was not supposed to be. In both cases, someone did something stupid and got themselves killed. there's more too, but I can't remember it all right now. I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

It may require another thread to discuss in detail. But in all the conversations I've had over the years. There's a grey line about "accidents" , which I've attempted to make black & white. For no reason other than my own interest in motorsport.

But I think there's a distinct difference between a lapse in concentration, getting caught up in the heat of battle and making a misjudgement, making an innocent mistake which looks clumsy and blatant carelessness and negligence.

While I'm at it. Along with my top three. I'd also like to include Anthony Davidson at Le Mans, in the LMP Peugeot, punting the class leading Corvette out of the race. Ridiculous. Especially when trying to justify it afterwards. What a ********. Don't anyone ever lament him missing out on a lengthy GP career. A brainless spud.

[journeyman racer]

drivers adapt to circuits. if there's a wall in the exit of the corner, they will be carefull. if there's room to go off, they will push more.
Do they? Or do they make a fuss about how dangerous that wall is? If modern day drivers had that inherent ability to show that judgement and adapt. They then wouldn't have to be told to slow down during yellows and be made aware that sector times will be observed.

Circuits are now designed to account for a lower level of driving, under the premise of safety.


this has nothing to do with the level of driving skill.
I hate to break it to ya, Bud. But it most definitely does.


on the other hand are the cars of today way more complicated and thus harder to drive than those of the past.
Are they? Why are they so complicated?

For a long time, I've read about what vicious beasts the 80s turbo cars are. Today's turbos are relative pussycats. But seem to trouble leading drivers. Even the late 80/early90s NA cars are considered to produced the most physically demanding cars.


imo is the average level nowadays higher than 20 years ago, but are the best of the best still on the same level.
If it's your opinion. There's little point in making a counterpoint.

[journeyman racer]

I single out Senna because most people, incorrectly in my opinion, hail him as a racing God but looking back on the races he made plenty of mistakes and I certainly don't regard him as the greatest of all time.
There is no question, he is definitley a racing God. He has made his fair share of misjudgements. I don't regard him as the great of all time, so far.


I disagree with your assertion that drivers nowadays are easier to driver. I would say quite the opposite. Drivers are required to multi-task constantly in todays cars. They have buttons that they use to affect balance, brake bias etc.
There are more buttons on the steering wheel. But the stuff your saying drivers have to do now, they did then.


They are far more complicated beasts than they were 20 years ago. I regard the drivers of today in much higher regard than those 20 years ago. The big difference is that drivers are much more prepared nowadays than they were back in the good old days and the standard for entering F1 is higher with F1 driver programs by the likes of RBR, McLaren and Ferrari.
I'm not sure about that. Those driver program seem to be about teams finding it easier to get a good driver, before another team does. I've not yet heard of a driver say he's become better since going through a DDP, even if they didn't end up in F1.

But we'll see how Vettel does at Ferrari, to see the effects of RB ddp, and how JEV career goes.


Now to your comment that "Fitness has nothing to do with the skill of driving" This has to be the worst comment I've ever read on this forum. Drivers are athletes, especially nowadays since Schumacher came on board and raised the fitness level to that never seen before in F1. The fitter you are, the sharper you are. The sharper you are, the quicker your reflexes, the better you're able to focus. The benefits of being fit are massive and it translates to your skill on the race track. Being fit enables a person to harness their skill further and make the maximum from the ability they have. For a F1 fan to say being fit has nothing to do with the skill of driving really boggles my mind. If they weren't fit they wouldn't be able to drive today's cars and show their skill.
Yes, there's a certain level of physical strength to drive the cars, and keep it up. But there's only so much training and diet can do. It doesn't make you more skilful at driving a car. You can try it yourself.

As far as Schumi goes. All that talk about his fitness was the media embellishing him, and in turn, F1 as a whole. Ihaven't seen him do anything which suggests he was fitter than anyone else, as in a physical test. He never won a race as a result of superior stamina, like you do see in a footy code. Damon Hill did the reaction tests at the British equivalent of the Australian Institute of Sport. Of the thousands of sports people they tested, he was the best at that. No one gave a ****, because it was Hill.


I agree with your point about the circuits being more forgiving now. I don't like this but if it is in the interests of safety then I am okay with it. This doesn't mean the drivers have less skill it just means that they can afford to make a mistake now whereas they couldn't before so now we see them making these mistakes and running wide because they know they can afford to do so while finding the limit, whereas in the past they couldn't afford those mistakes. That's nothing to do with skill, that's just a by-product of circuits being safer nowadays. It's also part of a racing drivers job, to find every advantage that they can and if they have to run wide a couple of times to do that, then so be it. It is what they are employed to do :)
I disagree with some of this. But not enough to make a point about it right now.

[Doc Austin]

It may require another thread to discuss in detail. But in all the conversations I've had over the years. There's a grey line about "accidents" , which I've attempted to make black & white. For no reason other than my own interest in motorsport.

I think the grey line turns black when stupid accidents become a pattern, like, say, this year with Pastor Maldonado, or even Grosjean a couple of years ago.

An isolated dumb accident is just the kind of thing that happens to almost everyone. I mean, even Jackie Stewart missed part of the 68 season (which probably cost him the championship) when he broke his wrist in a simple spin in an F2 car. It was just a dumb accident, but it did not become a pattern.

Also remember that Mika Hakkinen was forced to sit out a race because he had too many dumb accidents. From there he turned it around, but he got off to a rough start.


But I think there's a distinct difference between a lapse in concentration, getting caught up in the heat of battle and making a misjudgement, making an innocent mistake which looks clumsy and blatant carelessness and negligence.

If you remove all the danger people will be careless. F1 is still not a safe sport, but it's a whole world different from 1971. Latre, Senna's death was such a shock because we were all lulled into a false sense of security, and now I think Bianchi's accident will wake people up a bit. Hopefully we will see less carelessness. After all, absolutely nothing happened at the Russian GP.

[journeyman racer]

An isolated dumb accident is just the kind of thing that happens to almost everyone.
I suppose when you compare drivers at this level, you have to pick at infrequent incidents. But I can see the weakness of my pov. This is a fair point made.

[The Black Knight]

Yes, there's a certain level of physical strength to drive the cars, and keep it up. But there's only so much training and diet can do. It doesn't make you more skilful at driving a car. You can try it yourself.

If you mean try be fitter myself and see if it improves my skills I've already done that for many years and it doesn't make you more skillfull but it did allow me to harness my skill better on the track. In my home circuit where I did all my testing/karting, I set the lap record when I was at my optimal from a fitness pov. It wasn't that I was more skillful as a result of working out, it was simply that there were minute differences. A slide I'd catch or feel earlier. Those tiny differences added up to a couple of tenths of a second lap time. It didn't make me more skilful, it just allowed me to harness my skill a little better :) This was Schumacher's philosophy really, if every component of his body was working at an optimum then that would allow him to harness what he already had better. Optimise everything.


As far as Schumi goes. All that talk about his fitness was the media embellishing him, and in turn, F1 as a whole. Ihaven't seen him do anything which suggests he was fitter than anyone else, as in a physical test. He never won a race as a result of superior stamina, like you do see in a footy code. Damon Hill did the reaction tests at the British equivalent of the Australian Institute of Sport. Of the thousands of sports people they tested, he was the best at that. No one gave a ****, because it was Hill.


Schumacher did do a physical test back in the 90s. All GP drivers of the time did somewhere around 95/96 and he came out head and shoulders above the rest. I remember John Watson speaking about it on Eurosport. I doubt there is any link I'll find online about this though since it was so long ago.

[Malbec]

If you mean try be fitter myself and see if it improves my skills I've already done that for many years and it doesn't make you more skillfull but it did allow me to harness my skill better on the track. In my home circuit where I did all my testing/karting, I set the lap record when I was at my optimal from a fitness pov. It wasn't that I was more skillful as a result of working out, it was simply that there were minute differences. A slide I'd catch or feel earlier. Those tiny differences added up to a couple of tenths of a second lap time. It didn't make me more skilful, it just allowed me to harness my skill a little better :) This was Schumacher's philosophy really, if every component of his body was working at an optimum then that would allow him to harness what he already had better. Optimise everything.

Fitness doesn't improve skill, it does however increase the period for which you can maintain your best performance.

[Malbec]

There are more buttons on the steering wheel. But the stuff your saying drivers have to do now, they did then.

Lets compare Senna's period to today, i.e. turbo era with turbo era. Senna had two controls for his engine, one was the throttle, the other was a boost pressure selector. IIRC in 1988 he had 4 possible boost pressure selections he could make.

Compare that to today. Obviously they have a throttle but on top of that they have to juggle different engine modes, the two different energy recovery systems (including when to harvest the energy which affects brake balance), when to deploy, how to deploy the recovered energy, how to deal with electronic problems as they occur, different fuel saving modes as well as other transmission settings such as opening and closing the diff. The number of things they have to stay on top of is illustrated by the fact that none of the buttons on the wheel are single function, they scroll through menus so are multifunctional. Remembering the codes so when the engineer gives them the order to select a certain mode they know which buttons to press in what order is another task they have to complete.

Thats just the engine and transmission. Sure you could argue that back in the day the gearboxes were manual and physically that was harder but it is utter nonsense to say that the current drivers have less to deal with than back in the day.

In any technologically dependent field, sports or otherwise, the nature of the job changes drastically over the years. That doesn't mean that someone now is less capable than someone back in the day, it just means that different skillsets are rewarded and that a different type of person comes to the fore.

Senna would likely not have made it to F1 had he driven the way he did and raced back in the 50s, his body would have graced the armco pretty early on in his career with his aggression. Ditto Schumacher and quite a few others. Could Fangio or Senna have coped with the complicated electronic packages (ignoring the fact that the former wouldn't even be physically capable of fitting into a modern F1 car)? We don't know and its more than possible they wouldn't have. Is it easier for a current kid who has been brought up on Playstations and iPhones to go into a modern F1 car and learn how to scroll through menus and select modes? Sure it is. Could anyone from the '80s onwards have coped with an F1 where 1/4 or more of the drivers wouldn't survive? Was it easier for the post-WW2 generation for whom the carnage that was the war was normal to cope with such odds? Of course. People are the product of their generation, their values are those of their generation and so are their skillsets. To claim that one generation is simply better than the ones after? Smacks to me of someone saying "in my day…"

[journeyman racer]

There are some holes in that piece. But too much for me to counter. You win.