Jules Bianchi Suffers Severe Head Injury

[steveaki13]

Very sad news that we didn't want to hear :(

I thought that we could probably do with a separate thread to discuss this and keep track of his condition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29496295

[zako85]

This is terrible news. In my humble opinion, Bianchi is one of the rising stars of F1. The reason he is not given enough credit is that he is driving a car that's destined to be in the back of field. I hope he recovers and continues his dream of F1 racing.

[steveaki13]

I have seen a very sad and horrible photo of the car wedged behind the tractor and a Doctor holding Jules helmet.

The roll hoop has been completely removed by colliding with the tractor. He must have had a massive hit on the head.

I won't post the picture here, because some may not want to see it.

[donKey jote]

At least the helmet looks in one piece

[Robinho]

I've seen the picture too, for me I guess it depends which direction the car was heading, if it was backwards then the lack of roll hoop may not be as bad, if it's gone in forwards, then the whole car has gone through. Struggling to feel optimistic, but being in surgery has to be better than it could be

[steveaki13]

The close up of that picture, looks worryingly like the back of his helmet is actually damaged. Hard to tell, but worrying if true.

[truefan72]

this is very sad news.
he is in a coma now but breathing on his own
gutted for bianchi

[steveaki13]

Bianchi out of surgery

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29499545

[GravettFan99]

Gut wrenching news. He's one of the better people you can find in the paddock. He's an excellent driver that is deserving a better drive. Unfortunately, I'm guessing this incident will render him unable to compete for the rest of this season. :(

[Doc Austin]

What a horrible accident. Let's hope and pray for the best.

I didn't think Bianci will be back even next year. These head injuries seem to take at least two years. If you look at drivers like Wedlinger, Hakkinen, and even Massa, they were not back to normal for at least two seasons.

The good news for now is that Bianci seems to be stable enough that we are not getting any farther news. Now it's like with Schumacher ..... a waiting game.

[Storm]

Very sad indeed..I guess not even the race winners are feeling that happy tonight. Atleast he is now stable, so let us hope for the best.

[N. Jones]

I hope he is going to be okay. My thoughts are with him and his family.

[Ranger]

Formula 1 has done a lot of work in the past 20 years on improving safety for the drivers, but it has also been very lucky.

I think that this was a freak accident and its luck ran out.

The news seems to be better than was anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the accident.

Hopefully Jules will make a full recovery.

[WUff1]

According to French newspapers Bianchi has suffered another cerebral haemorrhage after the surgery and now has to be given artificial respiration ...

[AndyL]

Formula 1 has done a lot of work in the past 20 years on improving safety for the drivers, but it has also been very lucky.

I think that this was a freak accident and its luck ran out.

A freak accident, yes, but not one that couldn't be foreseen.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/martin-brundle--my-own-goal-1570271.html
It's something that Brundle mentions in his commentary every time he sees one of these vehicles in an exposed position. I'm sure something will be done about it now. Low-level guards fitted around the vehicles perhaps.
I'm reminded of poor Maria de Villota as well; hers was also a freak accident, but also involved a vehicle with the wrong-sized space underneath.

[Mark]

Is it my dodgy memory or in the past did they not make more use of cranes to remove the cars? I wonder if the mini digger type vehicles is a cost saving thing?

[Storm]

Some places used cranes while others had these tractor type thingies - but yes pulling a car out of the track while not exposing the said vehicle/marshalls by using a crane behind the barriers should be the way forward. Or a SC at the very least and not just yellow flags at that corner.

[The Black Knight]

I do think that F1 needs to do something about the safety car procedures when retrieving a car but I don't believe the safety car every time there is a car off is the solution either because it erodes any lead someone might have.

A better solution might be cranes but then what about the marshals? There has to be a better way of retrieving cars without putting anyone's life in jeopardy.

I really Hope Bianchi recovers from this. That is the most important thing right now.

[Robinho]

The is video available of the incident. Do not search for it unless you really feel the need to see it. Some do, and I understand that. I needed to know more and I have seen it. What is clear is all the guards or rails or whatever around a tractor would be useless, it would just destroy a car in a different way. They have spent millions making the tracks and the cars safer, then jeopardize it all by allowing such vehicles to be on the wrong side of the barrier. It may be a minute chance of occurring, but the outcome I have just watched is unacceptable. A better way has to be found. As a side note, it is incredible we don't also have a bunch of dead marshalls.

Caution again if you want to watch the video, you cannot unsee it

[Doc Austin]

It looks like F1 has squashed all the video that's out there. I found four or fice of them, but they were all bland screens that say "This video contains content from Formula One Management, who has blocked it on copyright grounds."

[SGWilko]

The is video available of the incident. Do not search for it unless you really feel the need to see it. Some do, and I understand that. I needed to know more and I have seen it. What is clear is all the guards or rails or whatever around a tractor would be useless, it would just destroy a car in a different way. They have spent millions making the tracks and the cars safer, then jeopardize it all by allowing such vehicles to be on the wrong side of the barrier. It may be a minute chance of occurring, but the outcome I have just watched is unacceptable. A better way has to be found. As a side note, it is incredible we don't also have a bunch of dead marshalls.

Caution again if you want to watch the video, you cannot unsee it

The trouble is, the only reason Jules car hit the truck is due to a an extreme freak coming together of circumstances;

Jules car was travelling at significant speed, this being in fading light, heavy rain and double waved yellows - why so fast?

The truck was reversing into the trajectory of Jules out of control (but moving nose forward in a straight trajectory)Marussia

The rear of the truck had a sloping overhang, cruelly just at the height of an F1 cockpit.

As harsh as it might sound, this is a dangerous sport. We should not lose sight of the fact that a marshall was killed last year (I think) in Canada.... we carried on then, is this to be seen as any different than another sad but freak accident?

[donKey jote]

It looks like F1 has squashed all the video that's out there. I found four or fice of them, but they were all bland screens that say "This video contains content from Formula One Management, who has blocked it on copyright grounds."
Not all. At least not on Spanish sports newspapers sites.
balls :/

[Roamy]

there needs to be a huge shakeup at the top of F1 - It was stupid this race was allowed to progress when the rains arrived again Plus the did not even listen to one of the top drivers. This great sport is turning to SH!T !!!!!!

[AndyL]

there needs to be a huge shakeup at the top of F1 - It was stupid this race was allowed to progress when the rains arrived again Plus the did not even listen to one of the top drivers. This great sport is turning to SH!T !!!!!!

Most of the field was still on intermediates when the incident happened, so it surely can't be the case that the conditions were fundamentally unsafe.

[Mark]

For those who do want to see the video there's a one here. http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=818_1412603603

[MrJan]

For those who do want to see the video there's a one here. http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=818_1412603603

Horrible, horrible incident.

TBH though I'm not surprised that we've seen someone hit a recovery vehicle, it's just so tragic that it was in such a way. To my mind there has been an issue for a long time, one is that these telehandlers are allowed to go trackside while the race is live. Whilst most of us don't want to see a safety car, they do exist for a reason and would have stopped this from happening. The other is that the drivers routinely ignore the flags. In the UK a yelow flag is defined in the MSA Blue Book as:

"Yellow flag – Waved: Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary"

Drivers clearly haven't been doing this for years, and now one of them has paid a very heavy price for it. There isn't a great rethink to be had here, just get back to drivers actually following the rules and stewards enforcing them.

As for the rain...well it was a factor, but if Bianchi had followed the rules, no problem. There's no big rethink to be had on that front in my mind.

[Daniel]

The trouble is, the only reason Jules car hit the truck is due to a an extreme freak coming together of circumstances;

Jules car was travelling at significant speed, this being in fading light, heavy rain and double waved yellows - why so fast?

The truck was reversing into the trajectory of Jules out of control (but moving nose forward in a straight trajectory)Marussia

The rear of the truck had a sloping overhang, cruelly just at the height of an F1 cockpit.

As harsh as it might sound, this is a dangerous sport. We should not lose sight of the fact that a marshall was killed last year (I think) in Canada.... we carried on then, is this to be seen as any different than another sad but freak accident?

I disagree. It's an easily avoidable incident.

Someone mentioned canopies on the race thread, I actually don't see this as something a copy would have helped with. BUT there are two things which people have touched on.

1. Why was he going so quick in a yellow flag zone? If he wasn't so horrendously injured he should be getting a race ban. He needlessly endangered his life and the lives of the trackside workers.
2. Where was the safety car? Where was the full track yellow? By having a zone of yellows you still reward a driver for driving quickly through the yellow flags....

I'm sorry, but this is the typical motorsportforums F1 forum way of dealing with it..... ie it doesn't happen all of the time so it's termed as being a freak incident so do nothing and hope it doesn't happen again. It happened to Brundle before, once is too many times for this sort of thing, twice is just a joke. It's not going to kill the sport to have safety cars more often and be harder on drivers who are driving faster than they should be in these sorts of conditions, it might have already killed a driver to not be harsher though......

[WUff1]

Really horrible accident - the Marussia even lifts the tractor and turns it about 90 degrees. Very, very heavy impact.
If Bianchi would have touched the back of the tractor with his head directly, he would have been dead before the wreck standing still. Hope he survives - and in a more livable way than it is feared of Michael Schumacher ..

[truefan72]

According to French newspapers Bianchi has suffered another cerebral haemorrhage after the surgery and now has to be given artificial respiration ...

oh my, not good news
fingers crossed...

[steveaki13]

Wow that was a horrible impact. Even more than you have in your mind before seeing it.

I noticed Brundle looked very shaken by the incident. Having had almost the same accident himself in 1994 and ever since worrying about that happening.

[truefan72]

For those who do want to see the video there's a one here. http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=818_1412603603

wow that was awful

I can only surmise that something went wrong with his car. there seems to be no way with double waved yellows he would travel straight at that rate of speed
i know the conditions played their part, but everybody was slowing down but he wasn't. it seems like he was still going at full speed
now that i've seen it, the injuries and his condition i suspect are much worse than i though.

Hang in the Jules and make a full recovery!

[Norwegian Blue]

It's incredible that one of the marshals around sutils car were hurt... you can see them scrambling...

[Storm]

Not all. At least not on Spanish sports newspapers sites.
balls :/
useless MD/Marca videos are always geo specific :s


That video is something though...what is mind boggling is that the marshall above the crane/tractor thingie is STILL waving his stupid green flag after Bianchi hits :(


Thinking again, after the Sutil crash, automatically that corner had yellow flags, then who decides (the marshall or race control?) to wave green flags at the SAME corner when the car is actually being moved by an external vehicle inside the barricades?

[keysersoze]

The team's insistence that news be delayed until the family has had a chance to arrive to Japan . . . does not sound good. I hope and pray that I am wrong.

[anfield5]

wow that was awful

I can only surmise that something went wrong with his car. there seems to be no way with double waved yellows he would travel straight at that rate of speed
i know the conditions played their part, but everybody was slowing down but he wasn't. it seems like he was still going at full speed
now that i've seen it, the injuries and his condition i suspect are much worse than i though.

Hang in the Jules and make a full recovery!

I doubt there was a car issue, with the green flag being shown he would have got back on the gas, and in all likelyhood simply aquaplaned on standing water, if this happens, no amount of steering imput or brakes would alter the trajectory of the car.

Hopefully Jules will recover, but after seeing footage of the accident....

[steveaki13]

usel

Thinking again, after the Sutil crash, automatically that corner had yellow flags, then who decides (the marshall or race control?) to wave green flags at the SAME corner when the car is actually being moved by an external vehicle inside the barricades?

I would assume the camera angle is deceiving. I assume he was the marshall post beyond the incident (thus green flags to say "you are past the accident"

If not, its some dumb ass marshalling right there

[MrJan]

I wonder whether a system like we saw at Le Mans this year, where there are specific caution zones, would be a good way of effectively throwing a safety car but without bunching the pack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtseGcIX6WM

Slightly different in endurance stuff but it worked very well there, and the negatives are far fewer than a full safety car.

[steveaki13]

I agree Mr Jan

That struck me at Le Man as a truly good idea.

[BDunnell]

TBH though I'm not surprised that we've seen someone hit a recovery vehicle, it's just so tragic that it was in such a way. To my mind there has been an issue for a long time, one is that these telehandlers are allowed to go trackside while the race is live. Whilst most of us don't want to see a safety car, they do exist for a reason and would have stopped this from happening. The other is that the drivers routinely ignore the flags. In the UK a yelow flag is defined in the MSA Blue Book as:

"Yellow flag – Waved: Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary"

Drivers clearly haven't been doing this for years, and now one of them has paid a very heavy price for it. There isn't a great rethink to be had here, just get back to drivers actually following the rules and stewards enforcing them.

As for the rain...well it was a factor, but if Bianchi had followed the rules, no problem. There's no big rethink to be had on that front in my mind.

Yes, I feel for all those reasons that this can hardly be put into the 'freak accident' category. What happened to poor Henry Surtees was a 'freak accident'. This is not.

With the exception of Brundle's mishap, I can't think of another similar incident in an F1 race. Why has this happened now? Well, it's very hard for any layman to come to a hard conclusion, but I too would suggest that driver behaviour in relation to flag signals has deteriorated. Without wishing to conflate two current issues, maybe the increased reliance on pits-to-car communication is partially to blame? It does seem true that F1 drivers (I don't see the same thing happening in other formulae) are more likely nowadays to miss or ignore flag signals.

[BDunnell]

I wonder whether a system like we saw at Le Mans this year, where there are specific caution zones, would be a good way of effectively throwing a safety car but without bunching the pack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtseGcIX6WM

Slightly different in endurance stuff but it worked very well there, and the negatives are far fewer than a full safety car.

Yes, a very interesting idea. So long as the reliance is kept on the drivers taking heed of the signals, I'm all for it.

[The Black Knight]

Here's close up footage of the crash

http://youtu.be/ObadBsi1mlY

It's a miracle he's alive honestly. I so wish he pulls through this. His F1 career is over but we can only hope that he gets a chance at living life at least.

[steveaki13]

Its terrible to see.

Completely different point, but its good to see the fuel tank stayed intact. That accident 20 years ago or so would have seen fire as an issue too.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yes, I feel for all those reasons that this can hardly be put into the 'freak accident' category. What happened to poor Henry Surtees was a 'freak accident'. This is not.

With the exception of Brundle's mishap, I can't think of another similar incident in an F1 race. Why has this happened now? Well, it's very hard for any layman to come to a hard conclusion, but I too would suggest that driver behaviour in relation to flag signals has deteriorated. Without wishing to conflate two current issues, maybe the increased reliance on pits-to-car communication is partially to blame? It does seem true that F1 drivers (I don't see the same thing happening in other formulae) are more likely nowadays to miss or ignore flag signals.

I remember a few times when this has nearly happened.

Brazil 2003 when we had many accidents at the same corner and Germany 2007 spring to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69JUz9BDrXQ - Skip to 1.25, Luizzi nearly hits the safety car and the JCB.

[steveaki13]

Yer 2003 in Brazil Pizzonia? (maybe) crashed into Montoya's already crashed car and marshalls jumping over the barriers.

2007 in Nurburgring was it Hamilton who spun and then 4 or 5 more cars ran wide in heavy rain and Liuzzi as you say nearly hits the SC

Brundle 1994 is creepy because of how similar it was.

[anfield5]

You would think that with all of the technology in F1 it would be quite simple for race control to be able to push a button that sends a signal to each car's engine management system to limit power, taking the option to ignore flags out of the equation

[Roamy]

Here's close up footage of the crash

http://youtu.be/ObadBsi1mlY

It's a miracle he's alive honestly. I so wish he pulls through this. His F1 career is over but we can only hope that he gets a chance at living life at least.
i can't believe they had that big piece of sh!t on the track. This is horrible.

[Whyzars]

Terrible, terrible. Whoever said you can't "unsee" that video is absolutely correct. I have read many positive posts relating to Bianchi and his potential and hope that he can get back to his seat soon. Prayers.


Senna ran into the back of a car (Mansell?) in Adelaide years ago. F1 cars have been fair weather vehicles for many years and nothing I can see has been done to address it. Was Senna driving dangerously or over racing because everyone else is doing it? I still remember how late the back of the car appeared before he hit it. Ouch.

Wet racing should be the great equalizer but what I see repeatedly is a "pack up and go home" attitude once the minimum laps are satisfied.

The first item next year should be "spray mitigation" technology and see what the engineers can come up with. Maybe it can be permanent or fitted with the use of intermediate tyres, who knows. They had no issue producing the DRS to counter negative influence on a following vehicle and I see this as an extension of that principle.

I would rather brainy engineers tasked with improving vehicle performance/safety in the wet than how far they can get with a pack of AA's. The unfortunate habit an F1 car has of aquaplaning on a spilt cup of coffee might be something to consider as well.


If start times for races are based on European sleep patterns then we can be assured of many very wet races into the future.

[Eau Rouge]

ok just seen it and my god im in shock. I really hope he survives this horrible accident. Wet track and a big tractor on the track. TERRIBLE!!! Should have been be a safety car as soon as that tractor was on the circuit. Unacceptable by the FIA.

[Eau Rouge]

You would think that with all of the technology in F1 it would be quite simple for race control to be able to push a button that sends a signal to each car's engine management system to limit power, taking the option to ignore flags out of the equation

totally agree and good idea. Avoidable accident. I am in real shock.

[Zeakiwi]

I find it difficult to understand with electronic measurement systems available (i.e digital rain gauges etc) and measurement of the track (roughness index etc) it was not possible to calculate whether it is safe to race or not.
Certainly if Massa was saying to stop the race 5 laps earlier - the race controller was certainly not listening to an important source of information -(an experienced driver on the track) and possibly negligent in elevating the level of risk for the drivers' safety by not stopping the race earlier.

[Hawkmoon]

With the speed he was carrying there was no way Bianchi was going to walk away from that accident. The tractor undoubtedly made it worse but I don't think the tyres would have been enough to absorb such a huge impact.

[Robinho]

I find it difficult to understand with electronic measurement systems available (i.e digital rain gauges etc) and measurement of the track (roughness index etc) it was not possible to calculate whether it is safe to race or not.
Certainly if Massa was saying to stop the race 5 laps earlier - the race controller was certainly not listening to an important source of information -(an experienced driver on the track) and possibly negligent in elevating the level of risk for the drivers' safety by not stopping the race earlier.

Massa was screaming, but not concerned enough to pit to remove his worn inters and put on full wets. Both sutil and bianchi were on worn inters afaik. They were all trying to tiptoe to the end without pitting again or hoping that the race would be red flagged when there was a crash. Had they been on full wets I doubt either would have crashed in that manner.

[Robinho]

With the speed he was carrying there was no way Bianchi was going to walk away from that accident. The tractor undoubtedly made it worse but I don't think the tyres would have been enough to absorb such a huge impact.

True, he was on his way to a huge accident regardless, unfortunately made exponentially worse by the huge tractor, rather than tyre barriers

[Storm]

If not for the tractor we might be looking at Schumacher 99 or somewhat worse but the big hulk of metal (not absorbing any of the shock) is what has made this life threatening (exponentially worse indeed robinho)

[BDunnell]

You would think that with all of the technology in F1 it would be quite simple for race control to be able to push a button that sends a signal to each car's engine management system to limit power, taking the option to ignore flags out of the equation

That's the sort of thing I'm against - technology that takes elements of the skill of driving, and racing with, an F1 car away from the driver.

[SGWilko]

I disagree. It's an easily avoidable incident.

Someone mentioned canopies on the race thread, I actually don't see this as something a copy would have helped with. BUT there are two things which people have touched on.

1. Why was he going so quick in a yellow flag zone? If he wasn't so horrendously injured he should be getting a race ban. He needlessly endangered his life and the lives of the trackside workers.
2. Where was the safety car? Where was the full track yellow? By having a zone of yellows you still reward a driver for driving quickly through the yellow flags....

I'm sorry, but this is the typical motorsportforums F1 forum way of dealing with it..... ie it doesn't happen all of the time so it's termed as being a freak incident so do nothing and hope it doesn't happen again. It happened to Brundle before, once is too many times for this sort of thing, twice is just a joke. It's not going to kill the sport to have safety cars more often and be harder on drivers who are driving faster than they should be in these sorts of conditions, it might have already killed a driver to not be harsher though......

I think we need to take stock - how many times - this season alone - has a truck been on track recovering a stricken car(s)? The drivers are in control of their own destiny, double waved yellows, as stated in the rulebook, tell syou te be prepared to stop. In the wet, it takes longer to stop. The drivers were ALL going too fast at that point.

Had the truck not been reversing.....

Had he been going at a suitable speed given marshalls were on the track.....

We are VERY lucky no marshalls were killed - needlessly.....

And I am glad to see you understand that a canopy would have been as useful as the roll hoop in this accident - none.

[SGWilko]

Here's close up footage of the crash

http://youtu.be/ObadBsi1mlY

It's a miracle he's alive honestly. I so wish he pulls through this. His F1 career is over but we can only hope that he gets a chance at living life at least.

Interestingly, this shows that while the car does go under the truck, it is only just, and only because the truck is reversing. It actually looks like the truck slows the Marussia down a lot, the roll hoop taking all the force - which is considerable enough to deform it - saving the instant retardation the car may have suffered if it went directly into the barrier.

[Rollo]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116193?source=mostpopular
Williams performance chief Rob Smedley says it would be technically straightforward to introduce closed cockpits into Formula 1, should the sport decide to in the wake of Jules Bianchi's accident. Marussia F1 driver Bianchi suffered a serious head injury after crashing into a recovery vehicle in the closing stages of the Japanese Grand Prix.

The sport has repeatedly discussed introducing cockpit surrounds on cars, since Felipe Massa suffered his own serious head injury during qualifying for the 2009 Hungarian GP and Fernando Alonso had a fortunate escape at the start of the 2012 Belgian GP.
Formula 1's governing body the FIA has conducted experiments with cockpit canopies (pictured, below) and Smedley said it would be a simple process for the sport to introduce them.
- Autosport, 6th Oct 2014

What is it going to take eh? If drivers are paid many millions of dollarpounds, doesn't it make sense for teams to protect their assets?

[SGWilko]

If the accident Jules suffered ripped off the roll hoop, do we honestly think a canopy would have remained intact?

More to the point, can you imagine if, at a more controlled speed the car got wedged under the truck with a canopy, and the driver needed an urgent tracheostomy.....???

[MrJan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116193?source=mostpopular
Williams performance chief Rob Smedley says it would be technically straightforward to introduce closed cockpits into Formula 1, should the sport decide to in the wake of Jules Bianchi's accident. Marussia F1 driver Bianchi suffered a serious head injury after crashing into a recovery vehicle in the closing stages of the Japanese Grand Prix.

Let's be honest, a canopy wouldn't have done much to limit the damage, just look at the way that the roll over bar and rear portion of the car got ripped apart. Canopies would help for flying debris but this incident was as a direct result of 3 things. 1. No SC. 2. Tractor on the wrong side of the fence. 3. Bianchi not properly slowing down as the signals were telling him.

As for Massa screaming, well we all know that he can be a bit of a jessie when things get a bit tricky. And if he was on inters then he pretty much has no argument.

[Franky]

If we'd remove the tractor from the scenario, there's still a big chance it could had gone nearly as horribly as it did. Bianchi was pretty much heading towards the gap between the fences.

[BDunnell]

Let's be honest, a canopy wouldn't have done much to limit the damage, just look at the way that the roll over bar and rear portion of the car got ripped apart. Canopies would help for flying debris but this incident was as a direct result of 3 things. 1. No SC. 2. Tractor on the wrong side of the fence. 3. Bianchi not properly slowing down as the signals were telling him.

Even then, they would be little help against heavy items of flying debris.



As for Massa screaming, well we all know that he can be a bit of a jessie when things get a bit tricky. And if he was on inters then he pretty much has no argument.

Exactly. He strikes me as the very epitome of the modern driver unable to cope without constant pit-to-car communication. It's understandable that he should be cautious about safety, but in one sense this renders him the last person whose view should be heeded.

[Bezza]

Horrible, horrible crash which I think on the whole could have been avoided. But on another hand, elements where in there which are impossible to control.

The weather. It changed very quickly, and the cars were still on Intermediate tyres even at that point. Perhaps, Pirelli need to manufacture an Inter that isn't "quite as good" which means cars need to switch to full Wets sooner, therefore allowing more grip, less aquaplaning - albeit slower lap times. We only see Wets now when they are behind the safety car on sat on the Grid, such is the range of the Inters.

I said when the crash happened, that the simple fact is, under poor weather conditions like that - tractors should only be allowed on track in the event of a safety car. I think in dry conditions, the chance of an incident like happened is practically impossible. But even then, a safety car would make sense and simply neutralize the race but we can all carry on after a couple of laps anyway. This happens in NASCAR and oval racing. In F1, they are seemingly worried about upsetting whoever is leading by wiping out his lead with a Safety Car. We saw it at Germany with Sutil (ironically) having spun on the last corner, just off the racing line. A SC should have been deployed there.

Above all else though, we need to ensure we don't over-react to this crash. There are always things that can be improved. Tractors, and deployment of Safety Car are two things already. What we don't want is to go too far, which I can unfortunately see happening - and see all wet races cancelled or limited, or cars slowed down, or anything else like that.

F1 is dangerous and bad accidents will happen. Take away danger totally and you take away the whole essence of F1.

[Bagwan]

I hope Jules is ok .

There are a lot of things to consider here .

Firstly , when Sutil aquaplaned off , his car was in the middle of the zone that was waved yellow , and his car came to rest at the end of the zone .
The puddle that put him into the barriers was , it can be argued , as much a danger as the car in bad position .

The yellow zone that was in place started about half-way through that corner , so Bianchi would have been at racing speed to that point , being asked to slow down in a turn .

As the car was being lifted at the end of the zone , Jules could see the green beyond , and I have read that the telemetry shows he was actually on the gas when he lost it in that same puddle Sutil hit .

I would suggest that the zones be changed , so that the entire corner is shown yellow .

From the cockpit , the driver may not have much time to glance over to see what the actual danger is , especially when he is in dying light conditions , in a rain storm .
But , he should always expect the worst , and be capable off stopping .

Again , I hope Jules is ok .
Both he and Adrian were going too fast to negotiate the corner .
Adrian was under greens , so his off is understandable .

But , Jules was under yellows , so we need to fully understand why he was going at such a speed to have him off at the same place .

And , something needs to change .




And , as for the crane , itself , I wondered if , given that Sutil's car was immediately beside the barrier , could it have been deployed from behind it ? Would the vehicle have had enough boom length to get the car off track without entering inside ?

[BDunnell]

Horrible, horrible crash which I think on the whole could have been avoided. But on another hand, elements where in there which are impossible to control.

The weather. It changed very quickly, and the cars were still on Intermediate tyres even at that point. Perhaps, Pirelli need to manufacture an Inter that isn't "quite as good" which means cars need to switch to full Wets sooner, therefore allowing more grip, less aquaplaning - albeit slower lap times. We only see Wets now when they are behind the safety car on sat on the Grid, such is the range of the Inters.

I said when the crash happened, that the simple fact is, under poor weather conditions like that - tractors should only be allowed on track in the event of a safety car. I think in dry conditions, the chance of an incident like happened is practically impossible. But even then, a safety car would make sense and simply neutralize the race but we can all carry on after a couple of laps anyway. This happens in NASCAR and oval racing. In F1, they are seemingly worried about upsetting whoever is leading by wiping out his lead with a Safety Car. We saw it at Germany with Sutil (ironically) having spun on the last corner, just off the racing line. A SC should have been deployed there.

Above all else though, we need to ensure we don't over-react to this crash. There are always things that can be improved. Tractors, and deployment of Safety Car are two things already. What we don't want is to go too far, which I can unfortunately see happening - and see all wet races cancelled or limited, or cars slowed down, or anything else like that.

F1 is dangerous and bad accidents will happen. Take away danger totally and you take away the whole essence of F1.

Agree completely with all of that.

[BDunnell]

But , Jules was under yellows , so we need to fully understand why he was going at such a speed to have him off at the same place .

I fear that may, eventually, prove difficult. Naturally I'd like to be proved wrong.

[SGWilko]

Horrible, horrible crash which I think on the whole could have been avoided. But on another hand, elements where in there which are impossible to control.

The weather. It changed very quickly, and the cars were still on Intermediate tyres even at that point. Perhaps, Pirelli need to manufacture an Inter that isn't "quite as good" which means cars need to switch to full Wets sooner, therefore allowing more grip, less aquaplaning - albeit slower lap times. We only see Wets now when they are behind the safety car on sat on the Grid, such is the range of the Inters.

I said when the crash happened, that the simple fact is, under poor weather conditions like that - tractors should only be allowed on track in the event of a safety car. I think in dry conditions, the chance of an incident like happened is practically impossible. But even then, a safety car would make sense and simply neutralize the race but we can all carry on after a couple of laps anyway. This happens in NASCAR and oval racing. In F1, they are seemingly worried about upsetting whoever is leading by wiping out his lead with a Safety Car. We saw it at Germany with Sutil (ironically) having spun on the last corner, just off the racing line. A SC should have been deployed there.

Above all else though, we need to ensure we don't over-react to this crash. There are always things that can be improved. Tractors, and deployment of Safety Car are two things already. What we don't want is to go too far, which I can unfortunately see happening - and see all wet races cancelled or limited, or cars slowed down, or anything else like that.

F1 is dangerous and bad accidents will happen. Take away danger totally and you take away the whole essence of F1.

Lets just go back to inters, wets and monsoon tyres, covering the whole scale of damp to soaked?

[SGWilko]

I fear that may, eventually, prove difficult. Naturally I'd like to be proved wrong.

Lets hope then that this trauma is more akin to Vendlinger in Monaco, than a Surtees or Senna type accident, and Jules has a high chance of survival post swelling?

[Bagwan]

To refresh my memory of the details I mentioned in my last post , I went back to the Motorsports.com site , and reviewed the layout of the marshalling posts and zones in the corner we saw the accident .

I was struck by the picture of Adrian , standing back , watching a fellow driver being worked on by the medics , unconscious in the cockpit , surrounded by debris from a terrible impact .

We saw the stone faces of those who hadn't been anywhere close to the scene at the time when we watched the podium sequence of events .
And , we all know how we each felt when we first saw the video .

But , Adrian was right there , and I feel for him right now , and hope he's ok , too .

[AndyL]

A number of people have commented about Bianchi not slowing for the yellow flags. Let's not forget that slowing down is no guarantee you won't crash, if you hit an unexpected puddle; just ask Marcus Ericsson about that. So the fact that he crashed is not necessarily proof that he failed to heed the yellow flags.

[SGWilko]

A number of people have commented about Bianchi not slowing for the yellow flags. Let's not forget that slowing down is no guarantee you won't crash, if you hit an unexpected puddle; just ask Marcus Ericsson about that. So the fact that he crashed is not necessarily proof that he failed to heed the yellow flags.

That's true - but to see that accident alone tells you just how much inertia was in that car - heck, it upped and moved a 6 tonne truck........

[jens]

Based on the crash video I have to say it is basically a miracle Jules is still alive... But this head injury he has suffered is certainly no pleasure and a proper suffering. :( Hopefully he'll have an easier time than what Michael Schumacher has endured so far, but to be honest they are all awful things, so I better not try to compare, guess or think about it.

[nigelred5]

a diffuse axonal injury is never good. Best of wishes to Bianchi.

[MrJan]

A number of people have commented about Bianchi not slowing for the yellow flags. Let's not forget that slowing down is no guarantee you won't crash, if you hit an unexpected puddle; just ask Marcus Ericsson about that. So the fact that he crashed is not necessarily proof that he failed to heed the yellow flags.

As Wilko said, there's no way that he was going slowly...and certainly not a speed where he could be prepared to stop. All comes back to what I was saying earlier, drivers need to obey the rules or be punished properly when they break them. Take that Le Mans slow zone thing, any driver caught over the limit gets a 5 second stop/go for every km/h over the 60 limit. You put something like that into F1 and I guarantee that it doesn't take long before drivers are playing the game.

[steveaki13]

And if he was on inters then he pretty much has no argument.

Thats the weird bit. Massa saying it should be stopped.

Why not pit for full wets, like 4 or 5 others had?

[steveaki13]

Firstly , when Sutil aquaplaned off , his car was in the middle of the zone that was waved yellow , and his car came to rest at the end of the zone .
The puddle that put him into the barriers was , it can be argued , as much a danger as the car in bad position .

The yellow zone that was in place started about half-way through that corner , so Bianchi would have been at racing speed to that point , being asked to slow down in a turn .

As the car was being lifted at the end of the zone , Jules could see the green beyond , and I have read that the telemetry shows he was actually on the gas when he lost it in that same puddle Sutil hit .

I would suggest that the zones be changed , so that the entire corner is shown yellow .



If that is the case, thats stupid. Surly the answer is to have a fair zone ahead of an incident "Yellow" then a driver has time to see the yellow flags even if he misses one.

I mean the incident was around Dunlop corner? So the yellows IMO should start at least half way back down the Snake section.

That gives plenty of time to see flags and slow down in time.

The problem we have seen over many years though is "how slow is Slowing down a bit"? Unless a set restriction is in place, drivers will always go a bit faster to not loose so much time as someone who lifts off.

[steveaki13]

But , Adrian was right there , and I feel for him right now , and hope he's ok , too .

Absolutely this is important to remember. Adrian Sutil may well need some support. Must be horrible to say anyway first hand, but as a driver it must affect you.

[steveaki13]

A number of people have commented about Bianchi not slowing for the yellow flags. Let's not forget that slowing down is no guarantee you won't crash, if you hit an unexpected puddle; just ask Marcus Ericsson about that. So the fact that he crashed is not necessarily proof that he failed to heed the yellow flags.

Thats true, aquaplaning is possible in an F1 car at 200 MPH or 60 MPH, of course at 60 MPH he would have barely made the crane though.

Get your point.

[Bagwan]

If that is the case, thats stupid. Surly the answer is to have a fair zone ahead of an incident "Yellow" then a driver has time to see the yellow flags even if he misses one.

I mean the incident was around Dunlop corner? So the yellows IMO should start at least half way back down the Snake section.

That gives plenty of time to see flags and slow down in time.

The problem we have seen over many years though is "how slow is Slowing down a bit"? Unless a set restriction is in place, drivers will always go a bit faster to not loose so much time as someone who lifts off.

They have an overview of the track layout in that section on Motorsport.com .

[Somebody]

Three things leap to mind as "stuff they should now do:
1) Some sort of crumple-zone "skirt" around recovery vehicles to at least lessen any impact, prevent cars potentially getting underneath them and - most importantly in this case - prevent crash structures being ripped off. Never going to be safe, but could at least be made safer.
2) A severely-reduced delta time to be driven to while going through a double-waved yellow zone, ala what now happens between the SC going out and cars falling into line behind it, rather than just lifting for a fraction of a second.
3) No driving in the dark on non-floodlit circuits...


A number of people have commented about Bianchi not slowing for the yellow flags. Let's not forget that slowing down is no guarantee you won't crash, if you hit an unexpected puddle; just ask Marcus Ericsson about that. So the fact that he crashed is not necessarily proof that he failed to heed the yellow flags.
One half emm vee squared.

Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed. Drive twice as fast, and the crash has four times the kinetic energy. Go from 60 mph to 200 mph, and you have eleven times the kinetic energy.

Slow down and you might still crash, but the likelihood of your brain being smashed around inside your skull in a (near-)fatal way goes down tremendously.

[Doc Austin]

Thats true, aquaplaning is possible in an F1 car at 200 MPH or 60 MPH, of course at 60 MPH he would have barely made the crane though.



According to telemetry, he was going 213 km/h (132mph) when he went off:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/amateur-video-shows-green-flag-waving-at-time-of-bianchi-crash/?v=2&s=1

[Valve Bounce]

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

[Robinho]

Had it been dry it may have been reasonable to recover the vehicle under yellows, but in those conditions a stricken can should automatically cause a safety car.

[Valve Bounce]

I seem to remember other circuits have long reaching cranes [BEHIND\] the safety fence to recover stranded cars.

[AndyL]

I seem to remember other circuits have long reaching cranes [BEHIND\] the safety fence to recover stranded cars.

There was one at Suzuka, between Dunlop and the chicane I think, but apparently it couldn't reach Degner.

It would be difficult to make this a general standard I think. You'd need a lot of cranes to cover somewhere like Silverstone or Monza, and the huge runoffs at the newer circuits could make length of reach a problem.

[AndyL]

The problem we have seen over many years though is "how slow is Slowing down a bit"? Unless a set restriction is in place, drivers will always go a bit faster to not loose so much time as someone who lifts off.

Yes very true. Even the slightest lift off the throttle seems to be accepted by the stewards, that is a long-standing problem.

[Norwegian Blue]

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

Wouldn't having a tense cable across part of the run-off area potentially be even more dangerous? Especially if the car was immobile, the dragging would cause more debris that would need to be picked up, more danger for Marshalls etc.. Not disagreeing with you that something needs to be looked into!

[airshifter]

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

[Bagwan]

Interesting point made by Sutil in an interview I just read .

He mentioned that it's not just the low light conditions that create the danger , but mentions that this combined with the bright lights on the steering wheel makes it very hard to see .


So , we have a driver in poor conditions , given a bright yellow light shining in his eyes , asking him to slow down , AT MID-POINT IN THE CORNER !

Sutil stated he was following Jules closely when he went off .
Jules must have seen the puddle that Sutil hit , as he avoided aquaplaning that lap , and made it around one last time .
Adrian's vision would have been blurred by Bianchi's car's spray , so hitting the puddle can be understood .
The rain was increasing as well , so the puddle would have been forming at that time , thus perhaps not affecting others as much , if they saw it .

This may , in part , be a safety device that was responsible .
Light level played a role , it seems .

[MrJan]

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

As I said earlier, it's a system that was employed at Le Mans this year and worked very effectively. It also meant that things got cleared up that would normally be left. FOr example someone went hurtling through the gravel at one of the Mulsanne chicanes and marshals came out in the 'slow zone' to sweep up. In the past the gravel would just have stayed on the track for cars to pick up.

[Valve Bounce]

Wouldn't having a tense cable across part of the run-off area potentially be even more dangerous? Especially if the car was immobile, the dragging would cause more debris that would need to be picked up, more danger for Marshalls etc.. Not disagreeing with you that something needs to be looked into!

Not if the safety car has een deployed and race control informs the marshals no, I repeat NO racing cars are in the vicinity.
While on the topic, Alain Prost has also condemned the deployment of the JCB onto the track while cars were racing. Big error, and somebody must be held accountable. Maybe in time honoured tradition, this person may consider hari-kiri!

[Valve Bounce]

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

BRILLIANT! I fully support this solution.

[Robinho]

At very least they could neutralise a sector of the track to a predetermined delta time (adjusted for wet and dry conditions) of say 25-50% over the mean time for the sector. Stop go penalties for all infringements. Disqualification for more than one infringement in a season. With the technology we have there is little need for a safety car, except that it physically bunches the cars together, leaving big clear areas of track/time to do what they need to do. For off track work neutralisation would suffice, for anything that actually involves activity on the circuit full safety car. No trackside vehicles to come past the fence until neutralization of that sector occurs

[jparker]

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.

[MrJan]

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.

If F1 is anything like lower level motorsport then you don't care what training the marshals have! The number of people volunteering to marshal these days is really poor and a lot of events that I'm involved in are really close to not running at all, as a result of there not being enough marshals.

[journeyman racer]

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.
Pull out your wallet.

[AndyL]

Moving words from Jules' father.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/jules-bianchis-father-speaks-its-desperate-but-jules-is-still-fighting/

[Malbec]

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

Actually the organisers did nothing wrong and Charlie Whiting's assessment is I believe correct.

There was no guarantee that a rescheduled race would have been any safer given that the conditions at Suzuka were changing regularly. The unspoken and ironic thing here is of course that the very media outlets (especially TV) that are lambasting Suzuka for not rescheduling the race would also have complained bitterly at having to reschedule their own TV timetables. Had Suzuka been started in the morning at local time then it would have been broadcast in Europe (still F1's main TV market) in a complete deadzone around 1-2 am. As Vettel said in a Sky interview after the race about his own thoughts about rescheduling the race he responded that the journalist should ask her employers, after all the race organiser had commitments to the media that they would have been penalised for breaking and had more clout than the drivers or the FIA in this regard.

Were the weather conditions to blame? I'm sure the wet conditions contributed but the rain was hardly monsoon-like at the time of the accident. As Brundle commented we weren't seeing cars flying off on the straights as we do in serious wet weather conditions. Had Bianchi not gone off the safety car would not have been deployed. The only driver complaining about the conditions was Massa and we all know his love affair with wet weather driving don't we. Lewis and Rosberg stated that they saw no problems with the wet conditions other than the spray at the time the accident happened. Racing in Japan carries on through the typhoon season and they are used to handling races in such conditions, nevertheless what we saw at Suzuka was not comparable to what we saw at Fuji when the race was rescheduled or Sepang when the race was redflagged due to the torrential rain.

As for the JCB, what other sensible options are there for rapid car retrieval? The contours of the hills around the corner there with 130R just behind doesn't allow the placement of a huge crane. Your winch option is fine for a car beached on its own in the gravel except for the cable acting like a perfectly placed garrote for any drivers going in the same place, how does it help for cars that are punched deep into the tyre barrier?

Just to put things into perspective Bianchi was very close to Sutil when the latter went off. Bianchi then lost control exactly one lap later at the same spot. In that time (around two minutes) the JCB was already reversing back behind the tyre barrier when the Marussia went into it. The marshals were extremely efficient. They were also protected by double waved yellows. And here lies the rub, the truth that taste prevents people from stating too loudly. Had Bianchi followed the double waved yellow flag guidelines he wouldn't have been going at the speed he had been and the crash would likely have been far less violent had it occurred at all. He had been going at 200 km/h when Button at full race pace through the same corner was going at 230 km/h and others at 260 km/h in the dry. A mere 30km/h slower than full race pace in the same conditions is NOT in anyone's book complying with 'slow down and be prepared to stop'.

Racers are racers and I can fully understand why they do not comply with double waved yellows, however making them comply is the best way of sorting out this problem. Pointing fingers in hysteria will not resolve anything. Introducing racial stereotypes into the argument certainly doesn't help.

[MrJan]

Malbec - All very valid points, but surely there isn't a reasonable excuse for not putting out a safety car to take the time to safely recover Sutil's car?

[Bagwan]

The yellow zone starts half way around the corner .
He would have been going as fast as he could until then .

When you lift off the pedal mid turn , your balance goes out the window .

[Malbec]

Malbec - All very valid points, but surely there isn't a reasonable excuse for not putting out a safety car to take the time to safely recover Sutil's car?

Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

Also given the amount of criticism Whiting got for supposedly keeping the safety car out too long at the start of the race and the vitriol thrown at the FIA for safety changes that get in the way of 'true racing' such as tarmacing over the gravel at Parabolica how do you think audiences would react if the safety car was deployed every time a car got stranded in the gravel?

[AndyL]

Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

Yes absolutely. If the double waved yellows are effectively observed with an enforced speed limit, then the safety car should rarely be needed except when marshals need to go onto the track itself.

[MrJan]

Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

Also given the amount of criticism Whiting got for supposedly keeping the safety car out too long at the start of the race and the vitriol thrown at the FIA for safety changes that get in the way of 'true racing' such as tarmacing over the gravel at Parabolica how do you think audiences would react if the safety car was deployed every time a car got stranded in the gravel?

Audiences? A guy is in intensive care, possibly will never wake up and certainly will never race. Audiences can go f*** themselves. Safety should never be neglected in an attempt to keep the audience happy.

Does a yellow flag do the same job? No, the safety car rules are more clearly defined and less open to interpretation so will always be safer. Do I think that the SC should be thrown every time someone is in the gravel? No. Do I think the SC should be thrown every time someone is in a narrow gravel trap and it's bucketing down with rain? Absolutely.

Bianchi was at fault for not slowing enough, I've said that on this thread several times already, but he didn't do anything different to what other people do. Yellow flags have been ignored for years, which is the fault of drivers and stewards/officials, and we all knew that cars wouldn't slow enough while Sutil's car was recovered. The SC was a very easy decision at that point in my mind, and that's not just speaking in hindsight.

[dj_bytedisaster]

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype (http://thejudge13.com/2014/10/19/f1-voice-of-the-fans-hippos-view-from-the-waterhole-time-to-stop-the-forzajules-hype/)

[rjbetty]

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype (http://thejudge13.com/2014/10/19/f1-voice-of-the-fans-hippos-view-from-the-waterhole-time-to-stop-the-forzajules-hype/)

I agree with this actually, except maybe the bit I bolded. The drivers are under pressure to get away with as little slowing down as they can, so as not to lose time to other drivers... And it has clearly escalated too far.

I don't know when this started, but my first recollection is Mika Hakkinen in qualifying for Monaco 1999. He set pole quite controversially under yellow flags since he raised his hand while going past the yellow flags, giving the impression he was slowing when he wasn't.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I agree with this actually, except maybe the bit I bolded.

*Scribbles three red crosses into the calendar*

That must be the first time you ever agreed with something I wrote. :)

[Malbec]

Does a yellow flag do the same job? No, the safety car rules are more clearly defined and less open to interpretation so will always be safer. Do I think that the SC should be thrown every time someone is in the gravel? No. Do I think the SC should be thrown every time someone is in a narrow gravel trap and it's bucketing down with rain? Absolutely.

The SC was a very easy decision at that point in my mind, and that's not just speaking in hindsight.

Nonsense.

The only cars driving slowly in sc conditions are the ones stacked immediately behind the sc. The others are doing what Bianchi did, slowing down enough to pay lip service to the rules and fast enough not to lose any advantage to their competitors until they hit the pack.

In this case the sc may or may not have gone out quickly enough to collect Lewis a lap or two after sutils accident. Bianchi would still have gone through Dunlop at broadly similar speed as he did in reality and the accident would have been the same. Had the accident not happened the sauber would have been carried away before the pack had time to even form up behind the safety car. It wouldn't have affected race events one bit.

[steveaki13]

Nonsense.

The only cars driving slowly in sc conditions are the ones stacked immediately behind the sc. The others are doing what Bianchi did, slowing down enough to pay lip service to the rules and fast enough not to lose any advantage to their competitors until they hit the pack.

In this case the sc may or may not have gone out quickly enough to collect Lewis a lap or two after sutils accident. Bianchi would still have gone through Dunlop at broadly similar speed as he did in reality and the accident would have been the same. Had the accident not happened the sauber would have been carried away before the pack had time to even form up behind the safety car. It wouldn't have affected race events one bit.

er.... Don't they all have a Delta time now a days when the SC comes out, meaning they go at the same speed as cars behind the SC?

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

There is something called "Rule 60" on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Double waved yellow means 60kph max. That would of course be difficult to gouvern, but F1 has something that could be used for a start. Double waved yellow - activate pit speed limiter - easy to gouvern, nobody could abuse it to gain time on the car in front and cars would be slowed to a somewhat safe speed. I mentioned that on one of the TJ13 podcasts weeks before Suzuka and it felt rather creepy that the very same suggestion could mean Jules wouldn't be comatose right now :S

[Tazio]

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype (http://thejudge13.com/2014/10/19/f1-voice-of-the-fans-hippos-view-from-the-waterhole-time-to-stop-the-forzajules-hype/)
I agree mate Jules did this to himself. As badly as I feel for him and his family I have to acknowledge this. As many of you know I was involved in a motorcycle accident 10 months ago, that was legally the other guys fault. Though I am riding again, I am not, and probably never will be back to the physical health I was before the accident. It has affected my livelihood as well. But I know when I am absolutely honest with myself that I could have avoided that accident had I been more careful. Yes the guy ran a red light, but I had obscured myself from him by a car in the next lane thus obscuring my view of him. Actually I am thankful that I didn't get more seriously injured, and now ride with a heightened sense of awareness.

[Malbec]

er.... Don't they all have a Delta time now a days when the SC comes out, meaning they go at the same speed as cars behind the SC?

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it. The fact is currently even with half the grid going into the pits for a quick stop, the pack catches up with the SC within two laps or so which is pretty quick.

I agree about the electronic controls limiting drivers to a certain speed in double waved yellows although this raises some other questions. What do we do when someone has a problem like Rosberg at Singapore where half their electronics are knocked out including their limiters? Also we'll need some sort of flexibility and forewarning, having a double waved yellow straight after 130R or Eau Rouge would be a recipe for disaster so there would need to be several sectors which are speed limited, perhaps with a reducing speed limit as they get closer to the sector in question.

[Doc Austin]

I am sure the technology exists for the FIA to trigger all the car's pit speed limiters by remote control. If there's a problem, hit the switch and it's safe for the crews to remove a vehicle or whatever, and when it's clear, let them go.

The not so evident benefits would be no time or laps lost to the safety car gathering up the field, so the crews can get to work and finished faster. That, and the FIA could restart the race at any point instead of making the field come around to the start/finish line. From a driver's standpoint, you would not lose any lead you had, but then again, if you were behind you wouldn't gain anything either.

[steveaki13]

There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it.


What a good point. :p

[MrJan]

There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it. The fact is currently even with half the grid going into the pits for a quick stop, the pack catches up with the SC within two laps or so which is pretty quick.

They aren't at the same speed...but they're also not at the significant speed that Bianchi was.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Those who've visited thejudge13.com before might want to listen to our upcoming podcast (published on Thursday or early Friday). We'll have former F1 doctor Dr. Gary Hartstein as a guest and he'll give some insight into why the Bianchi accident was handled the way it was. I'll be on, too. On TJ13 I go by the name "Fat Hippo" - a less than subtle reference to my physique :D

[Total_Hoon_Motorsport]

I am still in so much shock about this. The possibility of losing another driver's life so long after the late Ayrton Senna is terrifying. Yes, motorsport is dangerous, but to go so long since a death, and with so many crashes at much higher speeds happening now! It feels like it would be a step backwards. And what about closed cockpits? It would totally ruin the whole sport. Not to mention there is no material out there that would have withstood those forces pressed upon Bianchi. It would just smash up anyway.

[steveaki13]

Welcome aboard? :\\;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

I am still in so much shock about this. The possibility of losing another driver's life so long after the late Ayrton Senna is terrifying. Yes, motorsport is dangerous, but to go so long since a death, and with so many crashes at much higher speeds happening now! It feels like it would be a step backwards. And what about closed cockpits? It would totally ruin the whole sport. Not to mention there is no material out there that would have withstood those forces pressed upon Bianchi. It would just smash up anyway.

I think the fact that there has been no fatality since Senna is to blame here partially. Drivers deluded themselves into a sense of invincibility. They already ignored double waved yellow at Hockenheim (The Sutil shunt). They did again in Suzuka. Just this time Jules paid the ultimate price...

[Gordini]

Why did organozers use so long to get Sutil car and tractor out of track. Very tragic outcome to their slow work.

[Mark]

A Statement from the Bianchi Family | 19 November

Nice, France
Wednesday 19 November 2014
16.30hrs CET

The parents of Jules Bianchi, Philippe and Christine, would like to provide the following information regarding Jules’ medical care, by way of an update to the media and his fans.

“Almost seven weeks after Jules’ accident at Suzuka Circuit, and following a challenging period of neurological intensive care, we are able to announce that Jules has made an important step.

“Jules is no longer in the artificial coma in which he was placed shortly after the accident, however he is still unconscious. He is breathing unaided and his vital signs are stable, but his condition is still classified as ‘critical’. His treatment now enters a new phase concerned with the improvement of his brain function.

“Jules’ neurological condition remains stable. Although the situation continues to be serious, and may remain so, it was decided that Jules was sufficiently stable to be repatriated to his native France. We are relieved, therefore, to confirm that Jules was transferred aeromedically last night from the Mie Prefectural General Medical Center in Yokkaichi, Japan, to Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Nice (CHU), where he arrived just a short time ago. Jules is now in the intensive care unit of Professors Raucoules and Ichai, where his care will also be monitored by Professor Paquis, Head of Neurosurgery Service.

“We are thankful that the next phase of Jules’ treatment can continue close to home, where he can be surrounded and supported by his wider family and friends. We have nothing but praise for the outstanding care provided by the Mie Prefectural General Medical Center since the accident. We owe the medical staff there an enormous debt of gratitude for everything they have done for Jules, and also for our family, during what is a very difficult time for us. In particular, we would like to extend our thanks to Doctors Kamei and Yamamichi, and also to Mr Ogura, all part of the team of personnel caring for Jules in Japan.”

ends

Notes to Editors:

At this stage there are no plans for any media interviews, therefore the family kindly asks for the continued support of the media by requesting that they do not attend the hospital. It is important to the family that the rest of the hospital be allowed to function normally and that respect is shown for the other patients, their families and the hospital staff.

In line with the family’s commitment to the media since the time of Jules’ accident, all information will be issued unilaterally via press releases. The family remains committed to providing continued updates when appropriate.

[steveaki13]

Thanks for that Mark.

Good if still sad news.

[makinen_fan]

FIA verdict on the crash
http://www.fia.com/news/accident-panel

[AndyL]

Interesting reading. So the main way they'll be addressing the problem is some sort of speed limit under yellow flags, which certainly seems sensible.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this conclusion:


11. It is not feasible to mitigate the injuries Bianchi suffered by either enclosing the driver’s cockpit, or fitting skirts to the crane. Neither approach is practical due to the very large forces involved in the accident between a 700kg car striking a 6500kg crane at a speed of 126kph. There is simply insufficient impact structure on a F1 car to absorb the energy of such an impact without either destroying the driver’s survival cell, or generating non-survivable decelerations.

The implication of this seems to be that the outcome would have been no different in Bianchi's accident if he'd hit bare armco instead of the crane, because of the speed involved. But not all accidents happen at that speed. There must be a wide range of speeds and impact angles where the car's crumple zones can do some good, if there is something at the right height for them to hit.
I wonder how much this conclusion was influenced by the difficulty and cost of modifying (and then inspecting and certifying) all the recovery vehicles at every circuit.

Good to see they're finally going to stop Bernie meddling with start times to suit his TV customers:


It is proposed that a regulation or guideline be established such that the Start time of an event shall not be less than 4 hours before either sunset or dusk, except in the case of night races.

It is also recommended that the F1 Calendar is reviewed in order to avoid, where possible, races taking place during local rainy seasons.

[Doc Austin]

I'm not sure I fully agree with this conclusion:

The implication of this seems to be that the outcome would have been no different in Bianchi's accident if he'd hit bare armco instead of the crane, because of the speed involved.

We see 220mph Indycar crashes all year long, and in some of them the drivers don't even get a scratch. What hurt Bianchi is that he struck his head on the crane. Had he hit the Armco it would have probably been an ordinary crash.

I have not seen any injuries reported than the head injury, so you can say the car did it's job protecting him. The helmet probably deserves some credit here too because hitting your head on something at that speed is simply not survivable, yet Jules still has some hope.


I wonder how much this conclusion was influenced by the difficulty and cost of modifying (and then inspecting and certifying) all the recovery vehicles at every circuit.

The recovery vehicles wouldn't be a problem if they kept them behind the barriers. I did not know they were allowed there, but if I did, it would have been easy to see this coming.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

We see 220mph Indycar crashes all year long, and in some of them the drivers don't even get a scratch. What hurt Bianchi is that he struck his head on the crane. Had he hit the Armco it would have probably been an ordinary crash.

I have not seen any injuries reported than the head injury, so you can say the car did it's job protecting him. The helmet probably deserves some credit here too because hitting your head on something at that speed is simply not survivable, yet Jules still has some hope.



The recovery vehicles wouldn't be a problem if they kept them behind the barriers. I did not know they were allowed there, but if I did, it would have been easy to see this coming.

With a collision with the Armco the car normally 'bounces' away from the barrier after impact ,making the overall deceleration more gradual. With Bianchi's crash he went from 120kph+ zero in about 3 feet.

[Robinho]

We see 220mph Indycar crashes all year long, and in some of them the drivers don't even get a scratch. What hurt Bianchi is that he struck his head on the crane. Had he hit the Armco it would have probably been an ordinary crash.

I have not seen any injuries reported than the head injury, so you can say the car did it's job protecting him. The helmet probably deserves some credit here too because hitting your head on something at that speed is simply not survivable, yet Jules still has some hope.



The recovery vehicles wouldn't be a problem if they kept them behind the barriers. I did not know they were allowed there, but if I did, it would have been easy to see this coming.

I don't think that is correct, I don't think his head impacted the crane, the injury is not an impact injury, concentrated in one point, but a spread injury throughout the brain caused by the rapid deceleration, not an impact. I remember reading at the time that there was not any impact noted on the helmet. I fear if his helmet had contacted the crane at 125kph they'd have been picking up pieces

[Doc Austin]

I don't think that is correct, I don't think his head impacted the crane, the injury is not an impact injury, concentrated in one point, but a spread injury throughout the brain caused by the rapid deceleration, not an impact. I remember reading at the time that there was not any impact noted on the helmet. I fear if his helmet had contacted the crane at 125kph they'd have been picking up pieces

One of us got some bad information becvause the article I read said the helmet was damaged. I've also seen the crash footage and it sure looks to me like his head hits the crane.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/11145265/Jules-Bianchi-crash-shocking-video-emerges-of-Japanese-Grand-Prix-accident.html

I can find a link to where it talked about the helmet damage, but I think the video is pretty conclusive.

[Doc Austin]

Well, all right.

[Tazio]

Well, all right.
Sorry Doc, though I totally agreed, and saw where you were coming from in that post of yours I quoted, I felt that the wording of that comment was inappropriate and insensitive in regard to Bianchi's condition!

[Doc Austin]

Well, all right. :D

[dj_bytedisaster]

For those, who are interested. We discussed the FIA Bianchi report with Prof. Sid Watkins' successor Dr. Gary Hartstein two days ago : TJ13 #F1 Courtroom Podcast - Only 63 iPhone Charges till Christmas (http://thejudge13.podbean.com/e/63-iphone-charges-til-christmas/)

[CNR]

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/54836/20150404/jules-bianchi-health-update-philippe-bianchi-reveals-sons-condition-stable.htm
"Jules is still in a coma. As long as he does not wake up,

Read more: http://www.vcpost.com/articles/54836/20150404/jules-bianchi-health-update-philippe-bianchi-reveals-sons-condition-stable.htm#ixzz3WPYgGjXx
"

[The Black Knight]

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/54836/20150404/jules-bianchi-health-update-philippe-bianchi-reveals-sons-condition-stable.htm
"Jules is still in a coma. As long as he does not wake up,

Read more: http://www.vcpost.com/articles/54836/20150404/jules-bianchi-health-update-philippe-bianchi-reveals-sons-condition-stable.htm#ixzz3WPYgGjXx
"

Unfortunately for Jules I fear there is a very bleak road ahead. I hope he recovers from what happened to him but I very much doubt, like with Michael Schumacher, that they will survive this long term but my fingers are crossed that he will. I am sure they will both keep fighting until the end.

[jens]

Whichever way to look at it, it is an utterly horrific fate.

Arguably Michael Schumacher has been out of coma for some time now. There has not been much information going around, but either way it seems like a long recovery process and he is still some way off living anywhere near a normal life. If he ever reaches that...

Bianchi's case, by the looks of things, could be even worse, since it is already half a year he has been in coma and not come out of it...

[Alfa Fan]

By all accounts Bianchi is effectively dead. The only decision left is when to turn off the life support.

[Ranger]

I was thinking about him the other day, and was reminded that he has not been conscious since the race at Suzuka.

There has to be more scrutiny and recognition of what happened, otherwise the whole episode will be completely in vain.