Best defunct racing series'

[pcal226]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqLf9Qmo-wg

Found this great old video of a full race from 1968 Tasman Series won by Jim Clark. There's a few other vids of the Tasman Series on YouTube. I found another race from the '68 (also won by Clark) and one from '69 (won by Chris Amon). Its some of the best race coverage from that era I've seen. Full race with correspondents in the pits and everything. The Tasman series featured some of F1's best drivers and watching got me thinking about all the great racing series' that aren't around anymore. So my question is: which one is your favorite and why? And as a secondary question, would you like to see it brought back? I ask because generally reborn series never manage to capture the magic of the original (Trans-Am for example).

My pick would be the Can-Am series, especially as it existed during its early years. It attracted the best drivers in the world and raced on most of North America's best circuits. The cars were monsters too. Here's a pic from the 1967 Los Angeles Times Grand Prix at Riverside won by Bruce McLaren (in the #4 car).

http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/rir3.jpg

[D28]

The original Can-Am series is usually listed as the most lamented former series, and for just reasons. It proved that spectators really like loud, big engined, spectacular racing cars, as true today as it was 45 years ago. Can-Am, in spirit and attitude was about as far removed as possible from current over-regulated F1 and Indy Car racing. Even the livery and general appearance of the cars suggested outrageous speed.
Unlimited engineering solutions and zero pit to driver assistance, except for pit boards, what a concept!

Not without certain problems, the series seldom provided close inter-team competition at least for the victory. Winning was done by the current dominant team, be it McLaren, Porsche or Shadow.
Still I always attended the Mosport round, even though it sometimes suffered from weak fields due to its opening spot on the calendar.
Fondly remembered and sadly missed, we are unlikely to see such a spectacle again anytime soon.

[Rudy Tamasz]

My pick would be Indycar before the split. Monster cars, great drivers, diverse tracks. I especially loved 500-milers when drivers had to be equally good with wheel-to-wheel action and strategy.

Alas, that wasn't to last long, and not just because of the split. The cars were getting faster and started outgrowing the oval tracks they raced on. At some point heavy regulating became unavoidable as speeds were getting our of control. That killed some of the action and fans started leaving. I still miss those epic battles at Michigan.

[inimitablestoo]

I'll nominate Formula 3000; the cars immediately before it went one-make were particularly good-looking (the Reynards especially) and I quite liked the mix of Grand Prix supports and random other fixtures (Enna, anyone?). GP2, with a grid full of Dallara-Renaults, just going to Grands Prix (with the very occasional standalone race) isn't quite the same.

And domestically, the EUROCAR series, which attempted to create a localised NASCAR with a bunch of V6 stock cars. Entries were oversubscribed for several years, but the attempts to create a headline V8 version, as well as the fact that it quickly standardised to just the Ford Mondeo shell, rather than (as was the intention) whatever saloon shape you wanted, led to a downfall that was almost as swift. It was particularly a shame as the series was on the wane by the time Rockingham opened for business; the V6-engined series was far more suited to the UK than importing the American V8s for ASCAR proved to be.

[journeyman racer]

Over here. The some F3000 cast-offs were bought for the Formula Holden/Brabham series. A series that was supposed to bridge the gap for Australians wanting to get into F1.I liked it. It took a while to get popular amongst ambitious younger driver. But it never really got going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0gd5mFlIMg

Mark Webber won one of the AGP supports in 96.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwaYPkHLVY

Scott Dixon won the series in 98.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIXWtIaWe-I

[journeyman racer]

I also really liked the Auscar/Nascar series over here. Auscars were lower powered, less expensive Australian stock cars, that went the opposite direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7PADdyoyW4

I also liked Australian Super Touring. It was a good alternative, to the pretentiousness of the ATCC/V8Supercar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmah9TDZZYo

[BDunnell]

Excellent idea for a thread. If we may extend the remit to include rallying, I'd go for the British Open Rally Championship, as run between 1978-89. What a tremendous series that was, including involvement for many years by the cream of international talent alongside the best British drivers. In its heyday, the Circuit of Ireland was as tough as event as anything to be found in the WRC, if not tougher. The fact that Jimmy McRae won it seven times during the period demonstrates his talent, and his first Circuit victory, in 1980, was a truly epic battle against Ari Vatanen. 1981's Manx Rally battle between McRae, Tony Pond and Walter Röhrl was another classic of the era. To see British rallying in such a dire state now is saddening to anyone who remembers a golden age.

[anfield5]

CanAm was truly awesome, seeing hearing and feeling those monsters was a thing to behold. Also Formula 5000 was a great series
http://www.oldracingcars.com/Images/abbott/LolaT430s-2005-800x.jpg

The F5000 revival series in NZ and Aus is a joy to watch.

I also miss Formula 1, when designers could design and fresh ideas and innovation was to the fore. Designe ideas like
http://www.modelersite.com/Abr2001/images/Lotus79/79-1.jpg
or
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/ScheckterJody1976-07-31Tyrrell-FordP34.jpg

[Mintexmemory]

+1 for F5000 - as a teen I had the left front wing from Peter Gethin's McLaren on my bedroom wall (discarded and recovered in the Brands paddock)

also + 1 for the British Open Rally Championship
(Nice summary of 1979 season to show what people are missing nowdays: http://hyppyrally.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/history-of-british-open-rally_20.html )
Close to my heart, and hence the reason for my username here, was attending the opening round from 78-82. Always an excellent weekend.

Not mentioned to date is F2 (1966-70) a golden era when Rindt v Stewart was more often a real rivalry than in F1

[D-Type]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Formula Atlantic / Formula Pacific / Formula 'B'. Cars of comparable performance to F3 cars but with engines a lot nearer to production which kept costs down. The formula proved a usefulstepping stone to Formula 1 for several successful drivers

[AndyRAC]

As well as CanAm, what about the DRM? The forerunner to what we now know as the DTM, but far superior in every way.
I's agree with Ben about the British Open Rally series; a simply awesome series. To think there won't be a BRC in 2015.....
And with tongue in cheek may I suggest the WRC from 1979-1997; as that was when the dreaded 'cloverleaf' format was introduced, and the many issues the WRC faces now started.

[BDunnell]

Not mentioned to date is F2 (1966-70) a golden era when Rindt v Stewart was more often a real rivalry than in F1

Now there is an excellent nomination. I've read much about F2 in that period, and indeed post-1970 — the idea of its like today is simply fanciful — up-and-coming talent taking on the established stars. Given that, we really have lost something from motorsport today, haven't we?

The same, as I said, is true of British rallying's greatest era. Was this its apogee? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ6HrwIlzXQ

[anfield5]

I know these things were deadly, and caused a lot of injuries and deaths, but there was something incredible with the "Killer B's" in World Rallying. The cars (if you could call them cars) were astonishing things, the speed, noise and spectacle was something to behold. It is a shame some way to keep the show but mitigate the risks couldn't be found
http://www.bufkinengineering.com/L-DG65-2.jpg
http://www.thesmokingtire.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/lancia-delta-s4.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3236/3120511485_e153abd881_b.jpg

[umatbro]

Have you heard of RGT? its a rally class for sports cars, so its going to be similar to group b.

[inimitablestoo]

Of course, the original version of the WR Car formula (1997) was supposed to be about recapturing some of Group B's visual drama - somewhere along the way that got lost again.

And yes, if we could get back to the pre-cloverleaf era of rallying, before the repeated stages and - even worse - SuperRally, the powers that be might find people start taking an interest again. Without contrivances such as final stage shoot-outs and the like.

[Starter]

My votes would go to CanAm in first place with Atlantic in second. Atlantic not only had several F1 drivers come out of it but many CART/IndyCar ones as well. Third place would be a tie between F5000 (in the states it was dominated by one car/team/driver combo) and the old US TransAm series. The TransAm had all the US factories competing and a number of name drivers. Competition was intense, but the glory years only lasted for three to four seasons. It wound up a pale imitation of itself when the factory teams left.

[umatbro]

Of course, the original version of the WR Car formula (1997) was supposed to be about recapturing some of Group B's visual drama - somewhere along the way that got lost again.

And yes, if we could get back to the pre-cloverleaf era of rallying, before the repeated stages and - even worse - SuperRally, the powers that be might find people start taking an interest again. Without contrivances such as final stage shoot-outs and the like.

1. Did you mean World Rally Car (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Car)?
2. Whats a cloverleaf?

[inimitablestoo]

1. Did you mean World Rally Car (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Car)?
Indeed I did - WR Car was a common abbreviation in the early years of the formula, and that's the era I had in mind, from 1997 to roughly about 2005. Aero wasn't quite as mad as Group B, but it did look distinctly aftermarket.

2. Whats a cloverleaf?
In rallying terms, essentially a route format with a central base, from which each day's stages head out and come back in again, forming a (rough) cloverleaf shape if you drew them all at the same time. Back in the day (how old do I sound? :D ) rallying was a proper A-to-B sport, and while it's difficult to argue with trying to save costs, the cloverleaf format cost the sport something of its character. These days the cars tackle something in the region of a dozen unique stages (usually repeated twice) at World Championship level, whereas events used to be considerably longer and a repeated stage would be a rarity, if it happened at all.

[AndyRAC]

I said it at the time, around 1995-7 when it was being introduced – it will kill/ severely damage the sport. And it has. Those that make these decisions think they know best – but time has shown they don’t; in fact, quite the opposite.
Compare a pre ‘cloverleaf’ RAC Rally to a current RallyGB….; one covered large parts of the country; the other is currently a Rally of Northern Wales…..

[Bruce D]

I would say A1GP. Ok, I still suspect that Bernie killed it in the end by being behind the Ferrari deal. The series was very good with the original cars/engine/tyres but then they changed it to the Ferrari chassis/engine and Michelin tyres and killed it overnight because the basic was that the cars could follow each other closely and overtake each other - the new cars were too aero dependent, being based on a F1 car. I still rate that 2007 / 2008 season as brilliant, so many different winners and unpredictable nature.

[Doc Austin]

I really miss the Group C and GTP days.


http://nebula.wsimg.com/a65a35ddd9303ea4631379bff046e181?AccessKeyId=C377B 7ED74599129CCC2&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[inimitablestoo]

I might have thought of Group C more readily if the current WEC wasn't so strong. I had several Group C cars as toys when I was younger and I don't recall ever seeing a race on the TV (to be fair, I wasn't really interested in motorsport until Group C had begun its irretrievable 3.5-litre decline) but I always loved those cars. In fact, the two in the picture are the two I've got in my Scalextric set that I won at Autosport International some 20 years ago now.

[zako85]

Even though I never witnessed it, the videos of the original DTM look incredible. It was fun to see real stock based cars from Alfa, Audi, BMW, Ford, and Mercedes racing each other. However, for some reason, all touring car championships eventually are reduced to racing tube frame chassis or prototype wannabes that don't bother to use even the body kit of a real production car (NASCAR, DTM, etc).

[Starter]

After reading all the responses here, why do I have the impression that most of today's racing series pale in comparison to many of the defunct series?

[D-Type]

I think there's several factors:
(1) Simple rose-tinted nostalgia
(2) Greater variety both of cars and of circuits so at different circuts a different car had the edge
(3) Less high technology meant that the small man had a chance of proving competitive if he got the mixture of partly-understood factors more-or-less right.
(4) Smaller budgets. With less money around teams simply could not afford to explore every technical avenue. Consequently it appears that the larger budget teams didn't enjoy as much of an advantage compared to now. This is a strange one as you'd expect it to work the other way.
(5) Over regulation. The increased amount of regulation and tighter specifications reduce the scope for innovation
(6) Enthusiasm. Drivers appear to be more professional and focussed with hardly anyone claiming to race simply for the fun of it.
(7) Bernie. he has improved the 'show' of F1 and the money the top teams can make. But, to an extent this has been achieved at the expense of the lesser formulas. How many people go to a club event, national event or even the feeder formulae

[BDunnell]

Even though I never witnessed it, the videos of the original DTM look incredible. It was fun to see real stock based cars from Alfa, Audi, BMW, Ford, and Mercedes racing each other. However, for some reason, all touring car championships eventually are reduced to racing tube frame chassis or prototype wannabes that don't bother to use even the body kit of a real production car (NASCAR, DTM, etc).

The original DTM's worst problem: driving standards that make even the BTCC of recent years look like a paragon of gentlemanly excellence. And by the time it became the ITC in the mid-'90s the racing was deathly dull.

[BDunnell]

I think there's several factors:
(1) Simple rose-tinted nostalgia
(2) Greater variety both of cars and of circuits so at different circuts a different car had the edge
(3) Less high technology meant that the small man had a chance of proving competitive if he got the mixture of partly-understood factors more-or-less right.
(4) Smaller budgets. With less money around teams simply could not afford to explore every technical avenue. Consequently it appears that the larger budget teams didn't enjoy as much of an advantage compared to now. This is a strange one as you'd expect it to work the other way.
(5) Over regulation. The increased amount of regulation and tighter specifications reduce the scope for innovation
(6) Enthusiasm. Drivers appear to be more professional and focussed with hardly anyone claiming to race simply for the fun of it.
(7) Bernie. he has improved the 'show' of F1 and the money the top teams can make. But, to an extent this has been achieved at the expense of the lesser formulas. How many people go to a club event, national event or even the feeder formulae

In motorsport, I look for close competition — nothing more — so long as it comes about via proper means, not gimmicks like DRS. I'm not the least bit interested in technology (unless I happen to find it specifically interesting, which happens seldom), and even less in outright speed. I am left utterly cold by cars that look like they're running on rails, and the marketing hype that surrounds so much international motorsport activity is offputting, to say nothing of overblown 'feuds' between drivers and the like. The present-day WRC and F1 do little or nothing for me. Motorsport today too often lacks a sense of true challenge or adventure.

[AAReagles]

TASMAN... Can-Am... Formula Atlantic... all gone.

Makes a fan wonder "How did this happen?"


Never ever thought I'd see the day SMASHCAR would be the most popular racing series here in the states.

[zako85]

The original DTM's worst problem: driving standards that make even the BTCC of recent years look like a paragon of gentlemanly excellence. And by the time it became the ITC in the mid-'90s the racing was deathly dull.

Which is usually fun to watch. Touring cars driving should not be held to the same standards as open wheels or prototype racing IMO.

[BDunnell]

Which is usually fun to watch. Touring cars driving should not be held to the same standards as open wheels or prototype racing IMO.

To some extent, but there are limits. Too often DTM races used to degenerate into demolition derbies.

[Don Capps]

After reading all the responses here, why do I have the impression that most of today's racing series pale in comparison to many of the defunct series?


I think there's several factors:
(1) Simple rose-tinted nostalgia
(2) Greater variety both of cars and of circuits so at different circuts a different car had the edge
(3) Less high technology meant that the small man had a chance of proving competitive if he got the mixture of partly-understood factors more-or-less right.
(4) Smaller budgets. With less money around teams simply could not afford to explore every technical avenue. Consequently it appears that the larger budget teams didn't enjoy as much of an advantage compared to now. This is a strange one as you'd expect it to work the other way.
(5) Over regulation. The increased amount of regulation and tighter specifications reduce the scope for innovation
(6) Enthusiasm. Drivers appear to be more professional and focussed with hardly anyone claiming to race simply for the fun of it.
(7) Bernie. he has improved the 'show' of F1 and the money the top teams can make. But, to an extent this has been achieved at the expense of the lesser formulas. How many people go to a club event, national event or even the feeder formulae

There is much to commend regarding Duncan's list. Although nostalgia is certainly a factor in all this, that vintage racing is probably one of the few types of automobile racing in the United States that appears to be even relatively healthy must signify something.

In retrospect, it often seems that in spite of themselves and everything else, somehow they managed to find a way to create some very interesting series and racing from the early 1960's until maybe the early 1990's, for the most part, at least in North America.

[BDunnell]

There is much to commend regarding Duncan's list. Although nostalgia is certainly a factor in all this, that vintage racing is probably one of the few types of automobile racing in the United States that appears to be even relatively healthy must signify something.

In retrospect, it often seems that in spite of themselves and everything else, somehow they managed to find a way to create some very interesting series and racing from the early 1960's until maybe the early 1990's, for the most part, at least in North America.

Very true. And nice to see you on here again, Don. What do you think about the 'danger' aspect in all of this, may I ask? I naturally recoil from the notion of being at all exhilarated by the notion of danger in itself as a reason to enjoy motorsport, but I can't help but wonder whether it's somewhere in the background of the factors as to why modern-day motorsport leaves me cold.

[Don Capps]

Stirling Moss, along with more than a few others, have had their say regarding the "danger" aspect in racing, then and now. Personally, I tend to agree with the notion, at least to an extent, although I would suggest that rather than "danger" it is actually "risk" that they really mean. That there is, generally, a lack of dire consequences to an act, intentional or otherwise, would seem to significantly change or alter the very nature of the exercise. It is also the handmaiden of technology, that is, everything is faster and stronger, capable of higher levels of performance. Couple that with the increasingly insular nature of motor sports and, well, nostalgia is not what it used to be simply because "moving forward" does not necessarily equal progress. I have never been one who thought much of the rosy-tinted nostalgia that more often than not in no way reflected the reality of the times, but that memory has morphed into something that satiates the need to justify or rationalize a view or an ideology or whatever -- I will spare you my thoughts regarding how to view this as a cultural historian does. To an extent, nostalgia in the racing sense is often akin to the "Lost Cause" of the former Confederates or the "stabbed-in-the-back" conspiracy that was espoused by some of the Germans after the Great War, which reflected itself as an ideological stance not very different from the American "Lost Cause."

Personally, after following automobile racing for some six decades now, it rarely has much appeal for me any more. The current appeal of Formula 1 baffles me to a large extent given that it is so insular and not unlike 10-meter yacht racing in that only the 0.1% need apply as well as not having much connection with reality (economic and otherwise) or even that much of an entertainment. Like many forms of sport, it is a self-licking ice cream cone. Technology is a major part of the problem, not simply from a Luddite rejection of such things, but rather, I would suggest, that what racers want and spectators want are diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive goals and outcomes. Think about it and then ponder the changes over the past five or four decades across the board.

Currently, I rarely bother to watch F1 simply because I have better things to do on Sunday mornings. Despite my many misgivings about the organization, I do try to catch most of the INDYCAR series events -- when I remember there is a race on; similarly, the various NASCAR series events. While I certainly have grave reservations regarding those running the organization, despite it all, it is the only form of racing in the USA that actually has an audience. The slavish devotion to the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race has pretty much rendered INDYCAR to the sidelines for eternity. While it will stagger on -- and on and on and on... -- it is second tier at best, and lower second tier at that.

Personally, in their day, I liked Formula A/F5000 and F/Atlantic. I also liked the "big-banger" sports cars, to include the Can-Am and USRRC. Stock car racing in its earlier forms was quite interesting. IMSA managed to get so much "right," GTP was far superior to Group C. Trans Am self-destructed due to the SCCA ossifying and making Colonel Blimp look like a wild-eyed progressive. Say what one will about Big Bill and Little Bill France, John Bishop was the last person to run an actually successful sanctioning body in the USA. As much as USAC tried for years to screw up Champ Car racing -- and finally did, CART was like the Phoenix and even managed to make Ecclestone squirm -- but The Poisoned Dwarf was saved by Tony George and the IMS minions who successfully ensured that that form of racing would collapse into ashes, but without a Phoenix arising from the rubble. Not that I would wish to venture any opinions, of course.

My personal interest for a period in racing is racing in the USA until the end of 1920.

[Starter]

Don makes a ;lot of good points. I agree with much of it. I especially agree with his assessment of the risk factor. I know that risk was one of the things which made my own participation in motorsports different, and more exciting, than other sports I've done. Not that I though I would get hurt or that those around me would be injured, but that the possibility existed made it that much more intense. Let me make it clear that I don't believe for a second that the more dangerous former versions of the sport would fly today. Though the lack of same is one of the reasons for dwindling interest is all motor sports - IMO of course.

[AAReagles]

Well with another European round dispatched off the calendar, would it be premature to add F1 to this topic?... while awaiting the up and coming Formula drONE?
I'll be rooting for Team AMAZON btw.