Team radio ban

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29161931

Teams are now banned from giving performance related advice over the team radio. Interesting, but how do you define performance related advice?

[Doc Austin]

The teams will just find a way around it. They will display it on the steering wheel or something, or talk in code.

The best way to enforce this is to ban radio communication all together and let the FIA broadcast safety related information to all the cars. Make the teams communicate by pit board.

Listening to some of the engineers blathering on and on and on, how can you drive the car when there is a guy who's job it is to constantly distract you? Leave me alone. I know what I am doing.

[Mark]

Agree that it's far too open to interpretation. I mean if the team says to the driver "Code X3" they have no idea what that means.

[N. Jones]

Fernando is faster than you?

[Bagwan]

Everyone knows what "Code X3" means !

Allowances for safety , and procedural messages make this a mine field for appeals .
Races will be won and lost after the flag falls .

I get what they are trying to do , but there has to be a better way .

Could they limit the time that each team can talk to it's drivers , rather than try to police what they say ?

[Mark]

A few years ago there was a proposal to ban radios entirely. But they were let back on safety grounds.

[steveaki13]

Does this include a scenario like

Driver: Where am I slower?

Engineer: I can't say but brilliant sectors 2 and 3 and corners 3 through 16

[Rollo]

My boss and I are members of the local bridge club. There was one pair of old ladies who were exceptionally brilliant but no-one could ever work out why.

We played against them in a tournament and they were wittering on about their grandchildren and who they'd spoken and were telling all of these lovely stories... or so it seemed.
They'd named every single card in the pack with names like Julie for the 8 of clubs and Markus for the 5 of diamonds etc.
All of their petty inane stories, were just communicating to each other what they had in their hands.

If old ladies can do this, F1 teams surely can.

[N4D13]

This seems utterly ridiculous to me. I might agree or not with the change, but why would they make the change from one race to another instead of giving teams a decent notice period and making the change for the next season? I'm not one to usually criticise the FIA, but surely this is one of their finest. What a load of crap - it seems to only have been made to put teams with small steering wheel screens at a disadvantage.

[pob]

But N4D13, changing the rules midseason is an F1 tradition!

[zako85]

Supposedly, the rules did not change. The interpretation did.

[Mia 01]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115824?_ga=1.38522595.1749868337.1406484149

No coded messages are alouwed!!

[Koz]

Idiots. How can people in the FIA be so stupid?


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115824?_ga=1.38522595.1749868337.1406484149

No coded messages are alouwed!!

So is Italian still allowed? Will there be a special steward who understands Italian listening to Alonso's feed to make sure he isn't being told something naughty?

[Tazio]

Will there be a special steward who understands Italian listening to Alonso's feed to make sure he isn't being told something naughty?Yup......According to my sources the FIA have already secured the services of:



http://www.doroob.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/بينوكيو.jpg


:sailor: :angel:

[schmenke]

New FIA Technical Regulations announced today.
Henceforth all cars are to be equipped with the following FIA approved communication device:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/15216585005_287ea0c75d_b.jpg

[airshifter]

They should know better. If they have to the teams will hire fans to change shirts to send a signal. If a drink cup flies at turn 2 you can use overtake. If the flag bounces up and down you need to watch fuel. On so on, and so on.

It's about as stupid IMO as thinking team orders wouldn't take place when they were banned.

[AndyL]

A lot of the information the drivers get from the engineers could be made available automatically on the steering wheel display I think. I'm imagining the MS Office Clippy character popping up on the dashboard and saying "It looks like your rear tyres are getting a bit hot after turn 1. Try not to spin the wheels so much!"

[truefan72]

Idiots. How can people in the FIA be so stupid?



So is Italian still allowed? Will there be a special steward who understands Italian listening to Alonso's feed to make sure he isn't being told something naughty?

yup

FIA shooting themselves in the foot again

It simply is too tough to regulate, and only invites post race protests and confusion amongst drivers and teams, as well as unnecessary speculation from media

I find it particularly annoying when guys like A.Davidson pushed for this change, as if he never benefitted from the same rules in F1 and lemans cars, which btw are different than F1 being endurance races, etc.

Yes, i find some of those messages a bit too instructional, but given the way F1 is today and the ridiculous amounts of data and settings, especially on the steering wheel etc. teams should be very well allowed to tell their drivers what they please.

Each situation is different and each driver has his comfort level of communication that he has probably established with his RE already.
I for one have no problem with a team letting their driver know where they are losing time or gaining time, and if a car is set up a certain way, what to do to increase it's potential or minimize the deficiency.
So this new edict is completely unnecessary and serves no real purpose.
I guess after spending all that money and generating all that interest on radio communication throughout the race, they now want to limit that interesting component of the broadcast and shoot themselves in the foot. BTW a problem they themselves created as they get to choose which radio calls are delivered to the live feed.

[Doc Austin]

What will happen eventually is that there will be a central computer on the car that monitors everything, and it will be in voice communication with the driver. The car tells him when to pit, when to push and when to conserve. It will make the drivers crazy.

I say make them use the radios strictly for safety and emergency communications only, and have them use an old fashioned pit board for everything else.

[N4D13]

I say make them use the radios strictly for safety and emergency communications only, and have them use an old fashioned pit board for everything else.
Yet at the end of the day, if you allow having information on the pitboards, you could end up with technical information being passed on to the drivers (e.g., use this or that engine map or watch your tyre deg). Not that I'm against the change that you are proposing, but remember that this was not the FIA's intention.

[Doc Austin]

Yet at the end of the day, if you allow having information on the pitboards, you could end up with technical information being passed on to the drivers (e.g., use this or that engine map or watch your tyre deg). Not that I'm against the change that you are proposing, but remember that this was not the FIA's intention.

The FIA would have to police what's put on the pit boards. That would still probably lead to teams using code.

[Hawkmoon]

Who cares if the engineers are talking to the drivers!? This ban is about as sensible as the whole artificial sparks nonsense they think will 'spice up the show'. Bloody morons.

[Tazio]

Well stated Hawk! We/They can't have it both ways. F1 either goes back to internal combustion engines (exclusively) without a fuel limit, or continue on with complex PU's, that include fuel saving strategy due to fuel limitations. Add to that the factors of changing conditions, and situations during the race, and it is a huge benefit for these guys to be advised. I'm not so crazy about the "where am I losing time" type of conversation, but I' pretty sure we are not going back to the way it was. This change is not something that should even be considered during the course of the season, so they should just let this one play out in spite of their greedy paranoia.

[easy rider]

I don't have a problem when Lewis asks where am I losing time, and then trying to figure it out. It's definitely not the same, and surely beats the hell out of Rosberg's request during practice at Monza when asking his race engineer Tony Ross, " Give me driving instructions."

[Bagwan]

I don't have a problem when Lewis asks where am I losing time, and then trying to figure it out. It's definitely not the same, and surely beats the hell out of Rosberg's request during practice at Monza when asking his race engineer Tony Ross, " Give me driving instructions."

So , it's just the individual phrasing that you don't like ?

We know he knows how to drive the car , so can we not assume that both drivers were asking for the same info ?

I admit it didn't sound as nice when Nico said that , but it's not worth risking this attempt at gagging the driver/engineer radio .

[Bagwan]

Well stated Hawk! We/They can't have it both ways. F1 either goes back to internal combustion engines (exclusively) without a fuel limit, or continue on with complex PU's, that include fuel saving strategy due to fuel limitations. Add to that the factors of changing conditions, and situations during the race, and it is a huge benefit for these guys to be advised. I'm not so crazy about the "where am I losing time" type of conversation, but I' pretty sure we are not going back to the way it was. This change is not something that should even be considered during the course of the season, so they should just let this one play out in spite of their greedy paranoia.

Tazzy , give them a fuel limit , and a point if they stay within it .
That way they can chose to fight , and to forfeit the point for position if they must .

[Tazio]

Not a bad idea. :idea:

[Tazio]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/09/15/gain-lose-new-radio-rules/

A very revealing read methinks. As for the actual radio exchanges I think my fav is:




Canada

16

Kimi Raikkonen

Antonio Spagnolo

I don’t know what is ‘P4′?



Canada

16

Antonio Spagnolo

Kimi Raikkonen

OK, so it’s 12 clicks on the ’10′-button, and four clicks on the ’1′-button.





:o ;)

[schmenke]

Tazzy , give them a fuel limit , and a point if they stay within it .
That way they can chose to fight , and to forfeit the point for position if they must .

So, every driver that finishes a race will get a point, even those that were lapped and finish a lap behind (i.e. have done one less lap)?

Caterham would be happy :p: .

[Bagwan]

So, every driver that finishes a race will get a point, even those that were lapped and finish a lap behind (i.e. have done one less lap)?

Caterham would be happy :p: .

Hey , even down there in the lower class , they'd have to chose carefully whether to stay under the limit for fuel or burn it for position .

It goes along with the idea that they are now hybrid vehicles , so rewarding fuel economy would be right on song .

To further the idea , they could award a separate trophy for the most points kept in the fuel economy stakes .
More pomp and green circumstance to print lines about .
No loser there .
Not even Caterham .

[anfield5]

On the surface this is an excellent rule, driver should drive the cars, not the engineers. The way things are going drivers could be replaced with an x=box controller.

As many have already pointed out though, teams are devious and they will find ways to imbed coded messages into other messages.

Does anyone know what the stewards will do if a team is guilty of breaking these new radio rules? Race disqualification and a public flogging might work.

[Mark]

Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, has provided the teams with a detailed list of the types of pit-to-car radio messages that will and won’t be allowed from this weekend’s 2014 Formula 1 Singapore Airlines Singapore Grand Prix onwards.

It follows last week’s directive which advised that any radio transmissions including information related to the performance of the car or driver would be considered a contravention of Article 20.1 of the sporting regulations. This states that "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided”.

The move follows recent media scrutiny about the amount of information being given to drivers by their race engineers, particularly in terms of how they can gain lap time.

Among the message types now banned - either by radio or pit board - include information about a competitor’s sector times, information on the level of fuel saving needed, any coded messages, and answering a direct technical question from a driver such as "Am I using the right torque map?"

Certain message types, such as information on tyre pressures and temperatures and brake wear and temperatures, will only be prohibited from the next round of the championship in Japan in order to give teams time to adapt to the changes.

The full list is as follows:

Message types allowed
- Acknowledgement that a driver message has been heard.
- Lap or sector time detail.
- Lap time detail of a competitor.
- Gaps to a competitor during a practice session or race.
- "Push hard", "push now", "you will be racing xx" or similar.
- Helping with warning of traffic during a practice session or race.
- Giving the gaps between cars in qualifying so as to better position the car for a clear lap.
- Puncture warning.
- Tyre choice at the next pit stop.
- Number of laps a competitor has done on a set of tyres during a race.
- Tyre specification of a competitor.
- Indication of a potential problem with a competitor's car during a race.
- Information concerning a competitors likely race strategy.
- Yellow flags, blue flags, Safety Car deployment or other cautions.

Message types not allowed
- Sector time detail of a competitor and where a competitor is faster or slower.
- Adjustment of power unit settings.
- Adjustment of power unit setting to de-rate the systems.
- Adjustment of gearbox settings.
- Learning of gears of the gearbox (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Balancing the SOC [state-of-charge of batteries] or adjusting for performance.
- Information on fuel flow settings (except if requested to do so by race control).
- Information on level of fuel saving needed.
- Information on tyre pressures or temperatures (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Information on differential settings.
- Start maps related to clutch position, for race start and pit stops.
- Information on clutch maps or settings, e.g. bite point.
- Burn-outs prior to race starts.
- Information on brake balance or BBW (brake-by-wire) settings.
- Warning on brake wear or temperatures (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Selection of driver default settings (other than in the case of a clearly identified problem with the car).
- Answering a direct question from a driver, e.g. "Am I using the right torque map"?
- Any message that appears to be coded.

[schmenke]

...- Any message that appears to be coded.

:rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

They'll use the FIA EMD (Enigma Machine Detector) for those codey bits .

They'll also be hanging cameras off the foreheads of all the race engineers , to catch those tiny but tell-tale shifty looks they display when they are being naughty .

[Tazio]

I just thought of a good coded message. If a race engineer tell a pilot driving a car that is normally at or near the sharp end:
"Koba' is faster than you" , it means shut you car down it about to go pop! ;)

[ShiftingGears]

No more Hammer Time!

[Tazio]

Actually, Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone claimed the credit."I was the one who started it off, yes. The drivers are all happy it's gone," said Ecclestone, referring to the end of all performance-related messages between the pit wall and the drivers


"Maybe he [Ecclestone] spoke to the drivers from the ’80s, :sailor:
who do not know what it is like to drive these cars," said Felipe Massa."The cars are very complicated [and] if the settings are wrong, you cannot do two laps before the car fails," he explained. "If it stays like this, there will be a big fight in the drivers' briefing."Sergio Perez agreed. "It's not great they have made such a big change from one race to another," he said.World champion Sebastian Vettel said the drivers might struggle to manage the complicated charging of the cars' on-board energy recovery systems."That's why we have so many people in the garage," said the Red Bull driver. "They're not here to have a nice time and have a couple of beers. They're here to do a job I figured Felipe would whine the loudest. ;)
Personally I'm for the rule change, but agree with Perez, changing mid-season is stupid, but not a surprise, because this is Bernie's MO.

[truefan72]

Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, has provided the teams with a detailed list of the types of pit-to-car radio messages that will and won’t be allowed from this weekend’s 2014 Formula 1 Singapore Airlines Singapore Grand Prix onwards.

It follows last week’s directive which advised that any radio transmissions including information related to the performance of the car or driver would be considered a contravention of Article 20.1 of the sporting regulations. This states that "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided”.

The move follows recent media scrutiny about the amount of information being given to drivers by their race engineers, particularly in terms of how they can gain lap time.

Among the message types now banned - either by radio or pit board - include information about a competitor’s sector times, information on the level of fuel saving needed, any coded messages, and answering a direct technical question from a driver such as "Am I using the right torque map?"

Certain message types, such as information on tyre pressures and temperatures and brake wear and temperatures, will only be prohibited from the next round of the championship in Japan in order to give teams time to adapt to the changes.

The full list is as follows:

Message types allowed
- Acknowledgement that a driver message has been heard.
- Lap or sector time detail.
- Lap time detail of a competitor.
- Gaps to a competitor during a practice session or race.
- "Push hard", "push now", "you will be racing xx" or similar.
- Helping with warning of traffic during a practice session or race.
- Giving the gaps between cars in qualifying so as to better position the car for a clear lap.
- Puncture warning.
- Tyre choice at the next pit stop.
- Number of laps a competitor has done on a set of tyres during a race.
- Tyre specification of a competitor.
- Indication of a potential problem with a competitor's car during a race.
- Information concerning a competitors likely race strategy.
- Yellow flags, blue flags, Safety Car deployment or other cautions.

Message types not allowed
- Sector time detail of a competitor and where a competitor is faster or slower.
- Adjustment of power unit settings.
- Adjustment of power unit setting to de-rate the systems.
- Adjustment of gearbox settings.
- Learning of gears of the gearbox (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Balancing the SOC [state-of-charge of batteries] or adjusting for performance.
- Information on fuel flow settings (except if requested to do so by race control).
- Information on level of fuel saving needed.
- Information on tyre pressures or temperatures (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Information on differential settings.
- Start maps related to clutch position, for race start and pit stops.
- Information on clutch maps or settings, e.g. bite point.
- Burn-outs prior to race starts.
- Information on brake balance or BBW (brake-by-wire) settings.
- Warning on brake wear or temperatures (will only be enforced from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards).
- Selection of driver default settings (other than in the case of a clearly identified problem with the car).
- Answering a direct question from a driver, e.g. "Am I using the right torque map"?
- Any message that appears to be coded.



This new rule is just ridiculous
drivers should choose their level of information and then deal with it

that being said, the list of banned communications is also dubious
the onse highlighted in bold are IMO too important to be on that 2nd list
also, with all the electronics and complicated nature of the cars, feedback is important and if something goes wrong on some system, is the driver supposed to fully comprehend the 27 different engineering options to resolve the problem on the fly????

it is just ridiculous.
It is as if the fIA think these cars have the level of complexity of a 1980 lotus. or even a 2001 car
there is a reason it takes an entire team of engineers to support each vehicle.

Drivers are busy enough driving the cars at breakneck speeds, dealing with traffic and doing what they can, now they are expected to have a phd level of comprehension to operate them effectively on their own
it is just ridiculous knee jerk reaction to some stupid pundits and some excessive messages by one or 2 drivers.
I bet you that the rule goes away in 2015

[Big Ben]

Apparently they've decided to postpone the banning of some type of messages for 2015. The messages that advise the driver on how to drive are still to be banned right away. IMO they should stick just to these kind of messages for the following years as well.

And speaking of rule changes, the are considering dropping the double points next year. There's still some sense left in them maybe.

[AndyL]

Some details here:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/9/16360.html
They've shifted from a ban on messages about driver or car performance to just a ban on driver performance information. Which sounds sensible enough but it's still a potential minefield of disputes and arguments.

It looks like it will now be illegal to say "go easy on the throttle on the exit of turn 3," but will be legal to say "the tyres are getting too hot on the exit of turn 3," which hardly seems any different. And they're not allowed to tell them to use the overtake button, but if they are still allowed to tell the driver about changing engine maps, then that one seems hard to police.

[Koz]

So Ricciardo and the overtake button and his "problem" are illegal? So... What happens now?

[tommy2k8]

F1 seemed to manage to cope before all this information was imparted to the drivers. Surely the whole point of motor racing is for drivers to race, not be told how to do it! I think the ongoing rule changes, that seem to be every couple of races at the moment, is partly why people are turning off.