The most complete driver on the grid?

[airshifter]

Just opening this up for discussion. Though common sense dictates that it takes experience to be such a driver, and that the car does play a large part on our decisions, I think for some the jury is still out. We have several world championship title winning drivers on the current grid that contains a lot of talent. IMO the current grid is above or at least equal to the talent pool in any given year in Formula 1.



For me, there is little question. I think Alonso is without doubt the most complete current driver on the grid. Like most drivers I could find some flaws if I look, but they are few and trivial for the most part. And though he did run into the back of Vettel at Spa (Taz Kimi punked Fred at Spa!) it was a very rare mistake.

Regardless of the car, I think Fernando pushes hard 99.99% of the time. He knows how to drive hard, and IMO won his titles in a car not the best on the grid at the time. And though he has been dealt a bad hand with the car the Ferrari has been since he has been with them, he remains near the front of the grid and often hounding drivers in better cars. Wet, dry, changing conditions, good car or bad, I think he almost always makes the best of the situation.


This season I've seen something else that it seems he does more often than in the past. I'm not quite sure why, but maybe others will see it differently. But it seems to me that in the past, he was a little more "patient" and would often pressure drivers into a mistake. In that sense he reminds me of others that could do the same, such as Schumacher (#keepfightingmicheal) and Mika.

But it appears to me, and especially this year, that he is often in full "hunt and attack mode". He puts the Ferrari all over the track, trying new lines, and keeping the car in front wondering when and where he is going to attempt a move. And he's so good at it that he has made some really hard passes look easy. Even when at a car or strategy disadvantage, once he gets a wheel in there chances are that the move is going to be hard won regardless of who comes out on top. Though as Spa he probably cost himself a position or two, he remained in full attack mode to the end. And right now, I don't think anyone else on the grid can even come close to how he does it.



What do the rest of you think?

[Doc Austin]

Hamilton might be the fastest, and Button seems to be the best in changing wet/dry conditions. I also think that Nico has always been way underrated, and he is proving that now.

It's a little early to characterize Ricciardo, though he does seem to get the best out of the car every single time. I can't really remember, but I don't believe he has made a single mistake all year long.

Also too early to characterize Bottas, though it looks like he is at least as solid as Massa, and getting better. If Williams can step it up, he could contend next year.

Vettel is a bit of a mystery right now. there is no way he is as bad as he is showing. I think the work and pressure to perform at the level to win four consecutive championships probably burned him out and throwing a totally new type of car into the mix was too much for him to deal with. You don't forget how to drive over a single winter, and remember, this is the guy who effortlessly made Mark Webber look ordinary. I believe Marko said Vettel is tired, and I believe it.

Alonso is definitely the most well rounded and complete driver. It is a good thing the Ferrari is no good because in the best car Fred would walk away with it.

[steveaki13]

No driver can be complete all the time, but I don't think many F1 fans would go against Alonso and I think its been that way ever since 2007 when Schumi was no longer around.

He has enough of every quality to be better than most. It is such a shame IMO that Alonso has been for so long in a Renault or Ferrari which have not been good enough.

I hope he somehow gets his 3rd title so he fully becomes a legend.

We see in each race, very rarely does he loose positions, he nearly always gains positions or holds an unlikely position. He is tough, fast and consistent. He never seems to give up.

After him I would probably go for Vettel then maybe Hamilton

[donKey jote]

Like I'm going to join in on an Alo love fest... :sailor: :p

[airshifter]

Like I'm going to join in on an Alo love fest... :sailor: :p

No pressure. But if you admit it in PM we won't tell Tazio. :laugh:

And if you don't agree, by all means state so. There are some other very good drivers on the grid and I'm not trying to create a lovefest for anyone.

[donKey jote]

I rate Him and Ham highly, as you all probably know by now :andrea:

[Koz]

Hamilton might be the fastest, and Button seems to be the best in changing wet/dry conditions.

Where does this come from?
I simply don't understand. Is this simply because he picked the right tyres a couple of times?

Without any doubt it is Alonso.
That said, Hamilton isn't far behind. He is probably the fastest over a single lap, but sometimes his head just isn't in it, and that's what let's him down.


http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[Tazio]

All of them are very talented and likable young men, even Slash. :angel:

[The Black Knight]

I regard Michael Schumacher as the most complete driver of all time but, of the current crop of drivers, Alonso gets my vote, without doubt, to be the most complete driver on the grid. He has it all, skill, intelligence, speed.

Who I would put in second spot is a much tougher call. I'd regard Hamilton as the fastest but I feel he has more maturing to do before being regarded as a wholly complete driver. He has all the skill in the world but he needs to work on his mental strength and become smarter about how he approaches things. For example, I think he gives too much away to Nico on Friday's. There has been a trend this year of Hamilton being much faster than Nico on a Friday and Nico catching up on the Saturday after studying Hamilton's telemetry. He is showing his cards too early and should really hold back a little and just pulverize Nico when it matters, not on the Friday when it doesn't matter. I feel he has handed advantage to Nico on a couple of weekends by not playing it smarter on the Friday.

Rosberg, is quite a complete driver, but his cheating over the course of this season leads me to believe that he realizes the thread posed by a stronger teammate so I couldn't regard him up there with the cream of the crop, plus he's clearly not the fastest either.

Vettel - I think this year we've seen that he is quite a way from being the most complete driver on the grid or even close to being the fastest one. A four time WDC should never be embarrassed like he's being this year and I think it shows that he needs the car to get the job done.

Ricciardo, he has a bit to prove yet, but he's certainly looking to me like he might very well become the next Schumacher - time will tell. But his having won 3 races in the car he has reminds me of Schumacher in 96 though Schumacher's car that year was a pure dog.

No matter what you say though, we have massive talent in F1 at the moment and it's great :)

[AndyL]

Where does this come from?
I simply don't understand. Is this simply because he picked the right tyres a couple of times?

I think it's 6 times at the last count. At some point you have to stop calling it luck!

I'm not going to buck the trend on the original question - Alonso is the most complete driver. It's going to take some rhetorical skills to argue for anyone else on this question.

[journeyman racer]

How long's the OP been following F1? We all know the answer to this one.


I regard Michael Schumacher as the most complete driver of all time but,

Do you mean this as a compliment? Because if ever there was a cheat...

[The Black Knight]

How long's the OP been following F1? We all know the answer to this one.


Do you mean this as a compliment? Because if ever there was a cheat...

Haha, I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. Yes, Schumacher cheated but that doesn't detract from the amazing driver he was and the incredible things he did on track.

[journeyman racer]

Haha, I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. Yes, Schumacher cheated but that doesn't detract from the amazing driver he was Yes it does! Your double standards further diminishes your pov!


and the incredible things Bridgestone in particular, did on track.
efa

[The Black Knight]

Yes it does! Your double standards further diminishes your pov!


efa

Nope, only your pov is diminished when you quote me on things I never said.

[journeyman racer]

Michael was a very cynical competitor. You think very highly of him. Rosberg does something at Monaco that appears cynical, but not enough to pin him. You diminish him, and bore the rest of us, by never letting go and constantly calling him a cheat.

[The Black Knight]

Michael was a cynical competitor that won 7 WDC. If a driver of his talent comes along again and does what he did without the cynicism and cheating, then I will rate them as the most complete driver ever.

As for Rosberg the Cheat, he's nowhere near the level Schumacher used to be and has only one a few races. I don't care if I bore you chap. You're just another germ on the internet to me. I can take or leave you. You may or may not read my posts. Choice is yours! Either way, it has no impact on my life :)

[steveaki13]

Interesting point to make is maybe the level of Schumacher in his comeback. He clearly wasn't quite at the level of pre 2006

However given the quality Rosberg clearly has, maybe Schumacher matching him wasn't too bad after all.

Just a thought

[journeyman racer]

Michael was a cynical competitor that won 7 WDC. If a driver of his talent comes along again and does what he did without the cynicism and cheating, then I will rate them as the most complete driver ever.
So what you're saying is, you get seduced by the stats?


As for Rosberg the Cheat, he's nowhere near the level Schumacher used to be and has only one a few races.
Rosberg has only had a race winning car since 2012. Schumacher, since the start of his career. Rosberg started winning as soon as he got into a race winning car. I remember Schumacher's early wins, he was pretty fortunate. Mansell would've had him at Belgium, til electrical problems held him back late. Prost could've won in Portugal, but let Schumacher have the win, since 2nd would seal the title. There's also the very suspicious 94 Benetton. It's interesting that Schumacher's huge success started once the sporting regs meant there was a bigger influence from the pits. As in, not as a result of his driving.


I don't care if I bore you chap. You're just another germ on the internet to me. I can take or leave you. You may or may not read my posts. Choice is yours! Either way, it has no impact on my life :)
I don't know. Using the term "germ", a personal jibe, suggests it might have a teeny weeny impact?


Interesting point to make is maybe the level of Schumacher in his comeback. He clearly wasn't quite at the level of pre 2006

However given the quality Rosberg clearly has, maybe Schumacher matching him wasn't too bad after all.

Just a thought
I remember at the start of 10. Everybody banging on about how successful Schumacher was going to be, Rosberg was going to get shown up. Nowadays? Fans go on the internet and reflect in glowing terms of what was a mediocre three seasons. Hehehe

[Doc Austin]

However given the quality Rosberg clearly has, maybe Schumacher matching him wasn't too bad after all. Just a thought

Or maybe an indication that Rosberg is underrated. I'm surprised he has pushed Hamilton so hard in both qualifying and in the races.

I'm probably Schumacher's biggest critic, but I am going to take it easy on him until he's doing better. Picking on a guy who is fighting for his life just doesn't seem right to me.

[BDunnell]

I would argue that it's difficult, if not impossible, to judge a modern driver's 'completeness' given the range of information at their disposal from the pits. Does the concept of a 'complete' driver exist any more?

[Doc Austin]

I would argue that it's difficult, if not impossible, to judge a modern driver's 'completeness' given the range of information at their disposal from the pits. Does the concept of a 'complete' driver exist any more?

"Complete" just changed, that's all. In Fangio's day, you just had to drive the car. Today you have to be able to use the information to your advantage to be complete.

To be complete, you have to be able to do whatever it takes to get the most out of the car and yourself.

[The Black Knight]

So what you're saying is, you get seduced by the stats?

Rosberg has only had a race winning car since 2012. Schumacher, since the start of his career. Rosberg started winning as soon as he got into a race winning car. I remember Schumacher's early wins, he was pretty fortunate. Mansell would've had him at Belgium, til electrical problems held him back late. Prost could've won in Portugal, but let Schumacher have the win, since 2nd would seal the title. There's also the very suspicious 94 Benetton. It's interesting that Schumacher's huge success started once the sporting regs meant there was a bigger influence from the pits. As in, not as a result of his driving.

Being the most complete driver isn't about the just the stats or the fact that Schumacher cheated. Though, to be honest, the only clear cut place I see where he actually cheated was Jerez 97 and Monaco 06. As for his driving, Hungary, Canada, Argentina 98., Spain 96 and the list goes on. If you can't recognize those drives, especially Hungary 98, as one of the greatest on the sport then I'm really not sure why you are watching F1?

Like it or not, Schumacher raised the game of what it was to be a racing driver in terms of fitness and his working with the team. I can't think of any driver in history that has had the sort of impact he has had on the sport. Senna certainly didn't, neither did Prost. Do I believe Schumacher was the fastest driver ever in the sport? No, but he wasn't far from it. I also think over one lap Senna & Hamilton would have had, on average, probably would taken him. When it came to the race, how he prepared for it, worked with Engineers before and after to get everything from the car, that's a different story. So, yes, I regard him as being the most complete driver because of overall how he did his job on and off the track, not necessarily because his overall skill beind the wheel of the car. Even Alonso recently said that he regarded Schumacher as his toughest competitor.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/563165/20140819/fernando-alonso-michael-schumacher-ferrari-formula-one.htm#.VAbJ9mO5RmY

It's up to you whom you chose to be the most complete but it's hard to argue against Schumacher before his retirement in 2006. He had his flaws, but he was still brilliant.


I don't know. Using the term "germ", a personal jibe, suggests it might have a teeny weeny impact?

No, I put that in there to mislead you.


I remember at the start of 10. Everybody banging on about how successful Schumacher was going to be, Rosberg was going to get shown up. Nowadays? Fans go on the internet and reflect in glowing terms of what was a mediocre three seasons. Hehehe

People have realized that Rosberg was underrated. To be honest, I always said I thought Schumacher was doing a fine job because I recognized how good Rosberg was when he was at William's. In fact, if you go back through my posts, there are specifically posts where I say that when Hamilton joined Mercedes he wouldn't have the easy ride people thought he would because Nico was underrated. I also said that I felt this would make people realize that Schumacher, in his final year at least, didn't do too bad a job at all. In fact, I think he was the better driver that year, only surpassed by Rosberg because of reliability issues.

[journeyman racer]

Schumacher raised the level through fitness and working with the team? Nothing to do with driving skills. He benefitted a lot from the info he got from the pit, particularly from the performance you've mentioned. Even an idiot like Eddie Irvine put in "Schumacher like" drives, once Schumacher was gone. Like in Austria (and even like Germany!)

Joachim Winkelhock>Michael Schumacher.

[airshifter]

As for being most complete, I have to agree with the vast majority of what The Black Knight said above regarding Schumacher.

Did he at times have the best car, a great team, or have cheated? Sure. But other than a couple of occasions his cheating was IMO, a result of being mentally in the game at all times, taking a calculated risk, and losing that bet. It doesn't excuse it, but shows his head was in the game to win at all costs. Though I don't like when people cheat, I can appreciate that his passion was that great that he overlooked possible damage to his reputation in the interest of finishing 1st. In that regard it's not as if Alonso is squeaky clean either, he was involved in Spygate data himself.

But Alonso vs Schumacher if they were both in their prime, in equal cars? I think those on track battles would make Nico vs Lewis look pale in comparison. Not that there driving abilities are that much better overall, but because they are mentally tough. Schumacher was famous for applying pressure that never ended, and putting in fast laps when needed, especially pit in and pit out laps to retain a lead or make a pass while in the pits. As I mentioned at the thread start, Alonso is also a master of pressure and can make a move where others don't even think about it.

But I would also venture to say that at the end of a good battle, both Alonso and MS would retain their composure on the podium, having completely enjoyed a tough battle on track and admitting when they got beat without a lot of whining and excuses.

[journeyman racer]

At a time of winning F1 titles. Schumacher wouldn't have even won a DTM. Hehehe

[Garry Walker]

Vettel is a bit of a mystery right now. there is no way he is as bad as he is showing. I think the work and pressure to perform at the level to win four consecutive championships probably burned him out and throwing a totally new type of car into the mix was too much for him to deal with. You don't forget how to drive over a single winter, and remember, this is the guy who effortlessly made Mark Webber look ordinary. I believe Marko said Vettel is tired, and I believe it.

Webber was one of the worst drivers on the grid the last few years - a complete joke.


Most well-rounded driver is certainly Alonso. He is strong in every field, knows how to attack and defend, has great instincts in wheel to wheel battles, basically, he has no weaknesses.

Hamilton speed wise is close, but I feel he is more vulnerable to mistakes and errors than Alonso.

Other drivers are far off.

[steveaki13]

Webber was one of the worst drivers on the grid the last few years - a complete joke.


Most well-rounded driver is certainly Alonso. He is strong in every field, knows how to attack and defend, has great instincts in wheel to wheel battles, basically, he has no weaknesses.

Hamilton speed wise is close, but I feel he is more vulnerable to mistakes and errors than Alonso.

Other drivers are far off.

What about Vettel? :devil:;)

[keysersoze]

Alonso pips Hamilton in my book.

Then Rosberg, but I feel he is a bit dirty (remember Bahrain about 3 years ago?), co-equal with Vettel.

The next couple of years will see if Ricciardo and Bottas break into this group. Both very impressive and surprising the heck out of me this season.

[yodasarmpit]

Alonso.

[truefan72]

Alonso
Hamilton,
Hulkenberg
Ricciardo


probably in that order

[N. Jones]

Fernando Alonso. No other discussion is needed.

[steveaki13]

This must be the most harmonious thread ever on here :p

Shows how good Alonso is. When some relatively knowledgeable and true F1 fans say it, he must be some driver.

[N. Jones]

You calling me knowledgeable?
I think my FGP team proves this is not the case! :laugh:

[jens]

This must be the most harmonious thread ever on here :p


I concur with the harmony. Really there is no strong argument why I should not think Alonso is the most complete right now.

Though I really want to find out, how complete Ricciardo is, because there is no noticable evidence of any weaknesses in his craft either.

But perhaps there is a saying as there was with Vettel - "only with time we'll find out". Alonso has been on top level for a decade, Ricciardo has just barely started out being there.

[Tazio]

One thing I've noticed about Danny Boy, is that he seems to set his passes up as well as anyone, and better than most. This is a huge attribute for an F1 pilot.

[steveaki13]

One thing I've noticed about Danny Boy, is that he seems to set his passes up as well as anyone, and better than most. This is a huge attribute for an F1 pilot.

Yes, I can't believe how he has come on since HRT days, It shows you can't judge drivers in back marker cars

[rjbetty]

One thing I've noticed about Danny Boy, is that he seems to set his passes up as well as anyone, and better than most. This is a huge attribute for an F1 pilot.

Interestingly I remember a quote from him from Australia 2012 when he talked of setting a move up on his team-mate in turns 13-14! I was very impressed; he finished 9th I think?


As for my complete drivers (as in not necessarily the best, just the most rounded without many weaknesses)

Surprise! It's Alonso.
Kimi isn't bad actually, just not so fast these days/when car isn't suited.
Vettel's one of the better ones, Ricciardo even better at the mo.
Hulkenberg is pretty complete, however his ultimate pace ?? But don't forget he is penalised by weight compared to Perez etc.

I don't count Button even though he may seem the type. His setup seeems quite poor. Actually in hindsight, BAR/Honda often seemed lost for direction in this area through the mid '00s when he led them. This is not an attack ok? Just an observation.

Wouldn't count the Mercedes' drivers yet, since Hamilton is still learning to keep his head. However I don't really buy that Rosberg is cooler and makes less mistakes. I think Nico has made more mistakes this year, it's just that perversly he tends to benefit from his most high profile ones. As for other mistakes, sometimes it seems like Hamilton's are magnified through a magnifying glass, for all his career. I mean one tiny slip in a near-perfect 2007, one horrificly worn tyres and he's out - retired - championship over just like that. Other drivers seem to make bigger slips and more often, but without much consequence, as if the magnifying glass is turned the other way.

[jens]

In some ways Bottas looks pretty complete. Quite fast, both in qualifying and the race. Consistent, very few mistakes, etc.

But yeah we can discuss endlessy what "completeness" means. In some ways it reminds someone like Heidfeld, who looks at least decent in every thinkable area, but hasn't got standout speed. Does this mean a driver is complete, if he looks like a pretty decent package, just not very fast?

In contrast someone like Hamilton isn't often considered to be "complete", but looking at his racing and results he is usually getting the job done... and often spectacularly well too.

[jens]

Yes, I can't believe how he has come on since HRT days, It shows you can't judge drivers in back marker cars

Ricciardo was actually pretty good at HRT, just it was impossible to stand out more in that excuse of a car than he did. After all, he was beating Liuzzi there and even racing against some better cars (Caterham, Virgin).

It was always pretty hard to judge Ricciardo in Toro Rosso, but what we could see was that he was often pretty competent and consistent. Didn't make many mistakes, often fought for about 9th and 10th positions, especially in 2013 qualified very well (often in Q3). Seemed ahead of Vergne more often than not. The only question was how good/bad was the car, but that was impossible to tell.

This makes me come to Kvyat... I really want to know, how good this kid is. Because for someone at the age of 19/20 he is pretty "complete" so to speak. Not many brainfades/mistakes at all, usually fast and consistently competitive. And already beating Vergne, which is what Ricciardo was doing as well. And based on the Ricciardo experience we have now more belief/trust that the Toro Rosso driver roster is pretty good and better than many thought. Is Kvyat the hidden Formula One great?

[jens]

Rjbetty. Interesting you talk about Räikkönen and Button. Both known for being pretty consistent and error-free, bringing points home. Main issue - some adaptability problems and particularly struggling with heating up tyres in qualifying.

The one wonder for me is Hülkenberg. People talk about the fall of Vettel and Räikkönen, who were front-runners in the last few years, but Hulk for me is also a small casualty. Sort of "complete" with pretty good speed, consistency, point-scoring, racecraft. But has been outraced by Perez a bit too often this year and has really lost the spark recently. I remember I have been hyping Hülkenberg a fair amount here on this forum. You could make a strong argument he was a top5 driver on the grid in 2012-13.

Hulk has talent and he should come back stronger. But with drivers like Ricciardo, Bottas, Kvyat coming up very strongly, it could be that the doors of top teams will remain closed for Hulk and he remains a perennial midfielder...

[anfield5]

Rjbetty. Interesting you talk about Räikkönen and Button. Both known for being pretty consistent and error-free, bringing points home. Main issue - some adaptability problems and particularly struggling with heating up tyres in qualifying.

The one wonder for me is Hülkenberg. People talk about the fall of Vettel and Räikkönen, who were front-runners in the last few years, but Hulk for me is also a small casualty. Sort of "complete" with pretty good speed, consistency, point-scoring, racecraft. But has been outraced by Perez a bit too often this year and has really lost the spark recently. I remember I have been hyping Hülkenberg a fair amount here on this forum. You could make a strong argument he was a top5 driver on the grid in 2012-13.

Hulk has talent and he should come back stronger. But with drivers like Ricciardo, Bottas, Kvyat coming up very strongly, it could be that the doors of top teams will remain closed for Hulk and he remains a perennial midfielder...


Problem with Kvyat is that he is a Red Bull junior driver. He has next year at STR, then he goes off to drive a sports car, because STR with wash their hands of him, unless RBR part ways with Vettel.

Hulks problem seems to be that he is too big and heavy, and with the current quite ludicrous weight rules, he is being badly handicapped.