Mads Ostberg

[Antony Warmbold]

It's a shame that Mads isn't able to go faster than what he is currently showing.

It seems to me that he has the gift of driving, and the adequate balls, not even mentionning the experience...and car.
I have a feeling that his pace notes are not precise enough. I am just looking at his driving and cannot understand his norwegian notes so not sure...but that's what it looks like to my eye anyway.

I mean by that:

1. the excessive sideways driving
2. the lack of commitment on specific fast entry corners into dead slow ones (when it's blind only).

In my view these are signs of a good driver who is unsure about EXACTLY what the upcoming corners are like and/or the distances between them (exact racing lines and braking points).

Maybe a bit of coaching would do him good.

That's my two cents.

Any ideas?

[turves]

I agree, i think its a confidence thing which is a result of notes. Maybe a change in system isquired? Kris is showing the car still has the pace so I think Mads just needs to get the confidence back.

[AndyRAC]

In a previous era, without pace-notes, driving sideways was the safest way to get around corners – not knowing how much a corner tightened.
Now with pace-notes, and stages repeated year on year – this shouldn’t happen. As already said; maybe Mads needs to rethink his pacenote system?
And whilst sideways looks spectacular – it’s not the quickest way; circuit style driving seems to be the most efficient way to drive these cars.

[N.O.T]

Probably he reached his limit and it is not good enough... no progress for some time now.

how many times have we seen a mediocre fast driver to change his notes or co driver and become a contender ?? i do not recall any case.

[BDunnell]

In a previous era, without pace-notes, driving sideways was the safest way to get around corners – not knowing how much a corner tightened.
Now with pace-notes, and stages repeated year on year – this shouldn’t happen. As already said; maybe Mads needs to rethink his pacenote system?
And whilst sideways looks spectacular – it’s not the quickest way; circuit style driving seems to be the most efficient way to drive these cars.


Which, in turn, is extremely boring to watch, unless one is impressed by the sight of a car cornering as if on rails. And to think people wonder why the sport is dying...

[N.O.T]

Which, in turn, is extremely boring to watch, unless one is impressed by the sight of a car cornering as if on rails. And to think people wonder why the sport is dying...

there is always drift championships and ghymkhana for people like you where you can see real drivers going sideways all the time.... not need to bother with rallying.

[stefanvv]

Which, in turn, is extremely boring to watch, unless one is impressed by the sight of a car cornering as if on rails. And to think people wonder why the sport is dying...

It's not boring for everybody, sideways look like somewhat struggling to me, it's not very entertentaining.

[mousti]

Probably he reached his limit and it is not good enough... no progress for some time now.

how many times have we seen a mediocre fast driver to change his notes or co driver and become a contender ?? i do not recall any case.

Not that he is a contender in WRC. But Maurin improved a lot since he drives with Klinger.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

[noel157]

Not that he is a contender in WRC. But Maurin improved a lot since he drives with Klinger.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

Big time improvement since Klinger joined him. Sure, he'll never set the world on fire but he's middle league now compared to previous seasons when he was near the bottom of the league.

[AndyRAC]

Which, in turn, is extremely boring to watch, unless one is impressed by the sight of a car cornering as if on rails. And to think people wonder why the sport is dying...

But what is the solution? You can't un-invent technology. Do we give them more power and make them RWD? Encourage event organisers to stop using the same stages year on year? I won't even suggest getting rid of pace-notes....that's not going to happen.

[N.O.T]

Not that he is a contender in WRC. But Maurin improved a lot since he drives with Klinger.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

When you are not fast enough it is easy to improve your pace, but when you are relatively close to the top for so long like Ostberg most of the times it is because you reached your potential.

[Antony Warmbold]

In a previous era, without pace-notes, driving sideways was the safest way to get around corners – not knowing how much a corner tightened.
Now with pace-notes, and stages repeated year on year – this shouldn’t happen. As already said; maybe Mads needs to rethink his pacenote system?
And whilst sideways looks spectacular – it’s not the quickest way; circuit style driving seems to be the most efficient way to drive these cars.


Well yes circuit driving as you say....this used to be very important with the active cars and I think it was more emphasized than today. Nowadays with these passive cars it's a bit more enjoyable to watch at least!

[306 Cosworth]

Which, in turn, is extremely boring to watch, unless one is impressed by the sight of a car cornering as if on rails. And to think people wonder why the sport is dying...

When was the last time you went to a WRC event? The cars most certainly don't corner like they're on rails when they're on gravel, hell even watching the Germany coverage and various YouTube videos they're more sideways on asphalt than I expected.

[stefanvv]

When was the last time you went to a WRC event? The cars most certainly don't corner like they're on rails when they're on gravel, hell even watching the Germany coverage and various YouTube videos they're more sideways on asphalt than I expected.

Germany is specific event, lot of hairpins and "square" corners, You must pull the handbrake there, or will seem like driving like grandpa.

[noel157]

But what is the solution? You can't un-invent technology. Do we give them more power and make them RWD? Encourage event organisers to stop using the same stages year on year? I won't even suggest getting rid of pace-notes....that's not going to happen.

Many years ago when notes were banned in national events you had every Tom, Dick and Harry driving over the stages weeks before the start "on their way to work" or "out for a Sunday drive" or "visiting friends". All that sort of nonsense. Impossible to police.

RWD- great idea. New stages- would help but many organisers find it hard enough finding new roads.

[denkimi]

But what is the solution? You can't un-invent technology. Do we give them more power and make them RWD? Encourage event organisers to stop using the same stages year on year? I won't even suggest getting rid of pace-notes....that's not going to happen.
but you can ban certain technology.

harder tyres and more power should do the trick imo.

[A FONDO]

I agree that Mads has reached his top. It became finally obvious in the middle of the previous season. What I am worried about is that Mikkelsen isn't much better. Hope I am wrong.

Tony, it will soon be 2 years with no updates in your blog. :)

[AndyRAC]

Many years ago when notes were banned in national events you had every Tom, Dick and Harry driving over the stages weeks before the start "on their way to work" or "out for a Sunday drive" or "visiting friends". All that sort of nonsense. Impossible to police.

RWD- great idea. New stages- would help but many organisers find it hard enough finding new roads.

You forgot "I was out mountain biking...."

[Rallyper]

Solution is rallies on gravel and ice/snow, except for Rally Germany...

[Juha_Koo]

Mads uses norwegian-swedish-english pacenotes, regular 1-6 system with normal additions (one speciality is double "additions": --, ++). Also has own note for 90deg junctions, "vinkel" and hairpin, "hårnal". So nothing special there. It's not the world's most precise note system (that title goes to French "Loeb-style degree notes"), but very precise nonetheless. No problems there I would argue.

[Sulland]

Seen from a Citroen team perspective it would make sense to use teammember Loeb as asfalt mentor for Mads.
The car is made for Loeb and his driving style, and Mads has said that he will adapt to the car, since he knows the car is top notch.

The Norwegian series does not contain any asfalt rounds, so they are a bit handicapped, and not trusting the tyres 100%. That require systematic training, starting from a low level, even for top drivers!

[janvanvurpa]

Solution is rallies on gravel and ice/snow, except for Rally Germany...


I believe you meant to say "Solution is rallies on gravel and ice/snow---as God intended--- or he would not have invented gravel and ice and snow"...


:smokin:

[tommeke_B]

The car is made for his driving style, and Mads has said that he will adapt to the car, since he knows the car is top notch.

Can you be even more contradictory? :D His relatively poor performance so far this year proves that the car is NOT made for his driving style. In Germany the car looked really soft, the outer dampers of the car were plunging in the corners... You can't say a car is made for someone's driving style, especially with a WRC car. Simply because you can't really define the standard of what the car (DS3 WRC) is. And if you define "standard" as being the setup Loeb was driving, I think that's pretty much what Meeke is using now (at least it looked very similar in both Finland and Germany). It's quite strange what's going on with Mads. A few years ago, in his last privateer-year, I thought he could be the next man to beat Ogier, he was doing very good events, stage-times were very close to the top-crews, and he was extremely consistent at the same time. But now, he looks nowhere near it...

[amilk]

From Mads missing the spirit or something which is in Tanak, Neuville... Out of one snow rally and maybe one gravel rally not much to remember in the past and don't think he is capable to develop much. He can be (maybe he is already)"Hirvonen like" driver but not realy a winning type.

[stefanvv]

Can you be even more contradictory? :D His relatively poor performance so far this year proves that the car is NOT made for his driving style.

Looks like he meant Loeb.
Anyway concerning Ostberg he seem to make some progress with the car on gravel events, but not enough, always something happened t him during his learning. Perhaps the approach is not that good.

[makinen_fan]

A few years ago, in his last privateer-year, I thought he could be the next man to beat Ogier, he was doing very good events, stage-times were very close to the top-crews, and he was extremely consistent at the same time. But now, he looks nowhere near it...

During 2012 we were judging him as a privateer, when he never tried to push the big boys. He was always the best of the rest, and back then we had 4 factory cars, now 8. Probably when trying to step up a gear he lost his way a bit and a little bit his mojo, especially after the first half of 2013 when one problem was coming after another.
I believe Mads lacks the ability to properly setup the car, a lot of times he complains about the car's behaviour but never really knows what is wrong with it. It will be nice to see him progress and challenge Latvala, Ogier but I doubt it will happen

[noel157]

Can you be even more contradictory? :D His relatively poor performance so far this year proves that the car is NOT made for his driving style. In Germany the car looked really soft, the outer dampers of the car were plunging in the corners... You can't say a car is made for someone's driving style, especially with a WRC car. Simply because you can't really define the standard of what the car (DS3 WRC) is. And if you define "standard" as being the setup Loeb was driving, I think that's pretty much what Meeke is using now (at least it looked very similar in both Finland and Germany). It's quite strange what's going on with Mads. A few years ago, in his last privateer-year, I thought he could be the next man to beat Ogier, he was doing very good events, stage-times were very close to the top-crews, and he was extremely consistent at the same time. But now, he looks nowhere near it...

Meeke is using his own set-up on the car. Sure maybe similar to Loeb but his own specific requirements. He has helped Loeb in the past. Some years ago Loeb had difficulty in finding a good set-up for his C4/DS3 (can't recall which) in PET for Greece, Meeke, as test driver, sorted it out for him.

[Antony Warmbold]

During 2012 we were judging him as a privateer, when he never tried to push the big boys. He was always the best of the rest, and back then we had 4 factory cars, now 8. Probably when trying to step up a gear he lost his way a bit and a little bit his mojo, especially after the first half of 2013 when one problem was coming after another.
I believe Mads lacks the ability to properly setup the car, a lot of times he complains about the car's behaviour but never really knows what is wrong with it. It will be nice to see him progress and challenge Latvala, Ogier but I doubt it will happen

Interesting comment.

The systematic complaining about setup once the rally has started could be another hint that the notes are not up to par.

If Mads drives the car to the limit on tests (where he knows the road by heart) and sets the car up for that particular level of attack, that is one thing.

Then during the rally if he lacks confidence with notes and therefore there's not enough commitment, that car's setup is going to give him feedback like : understeer, too hard suspension, precision problem with steering, etc.

His engineers, if they are reading this...lol...could tell us if that's indeed the sort of talk they hear from him.

If the notes are indeed his problem, it would mean the ability to set-up the car is no issue in his case.

I'd like to analyze his notes a bit and compare to Loeb's which I understand quite well. If any Norwegian forumer could help out it would be great!


Loeb had for example:

1. distances between every corner unless really unuseful.

2. A corner system based on the shape of corners in degrees: ie. "droite 140" (meant a 140 degree corner) It's a typical french system which came from the good old days when they had scotch tape marks on the steering wheels, in recce, they would turn the wheel and get a quick measure by eye of how pronounced the corner was.

3. braking points: ie. "140 metres cuvette FREIN pour 40 mètres droite 140 moins court" (140 meters Braking at the dip and 40 meters right 140° short)

4. very precise braking points in corners: ie. "gauche 143 FREIN pour droite 90 (BRAKING left 140° over a disance of 30 meters until right 90°)

4. racing line precision: court, mi-long, long, corde, pas corde, corde légère, tard (short, half-long, long, keep-in, keep-out, keep-in a bit, late

5. speed precision: plus, moins, (plus, minus)

6. corners that tighten very precisely: ie. droite 145 FERME 110 pas corde (right 140° during 50 meters then tightens to right 110° keep out)

7. "et" or "sur": "et" (and) is used to go from right to left or vice versa. "sur" is used to go from left into left o right into right.

...

and there's lots of fine details like that which make it all very precise.


So please if a Swede or Norwegian could check Mads's notes and come back with info on what his co-river reads out that would be really great.

thanks!!

[Sulland]

"The car is made for his driving style, and Mads has said that he will adapt to the car, since he knows the car is top notch".
Can you be even more contradictory? :D His relatively poor performance so far this year proves that the car is NOT made for his driving style. .

I see your point, but "His" was pointing back to Loeb, and not Østberg. To avoid confusion I have edited my post :-)

[tommeke_B]

7. "et" or "sur": "et" (and) is used to go from right to left or vice versa. "sur" is used to go from left into left o right into right.

...

and there's lots of fine details like that which make it all very precise.

Little things like "et" or "sur" seem trivial but are, for example, additional clues for him because if he would for example hear his co-driver say "droite 110 et droite 120" he would immediately lift off the gas because he would know right away there is a mistake in the notes...

Thanks for this interesting post Anthony. But are you sure you didn't mix up et/and and sur/on, or does Loeb really use it that way? From the systems I know, "and" is always used for two following corners in the same direction, while "on" is used for a changing direction, telling the driver to adjust his line in the exit of the first one in order to take the second corner quicker. The scotch tape on steering wheels of recce cars is still a common sight in France by the way. ;) Especially on French gravel events, where only one run of recce is allowed, with the rally-car itself (this is done in order to give equal chances to all competitors, as not everyone can afford a recce-car for gravel).

Anyway back to Mads Ostberg, I don't think it's the notes that were that bad in Germany. The only visible difference between his car is that you could see it "rolling over" more than the others. Especially in one combination of a long left (3rd gear) into right (3rd gear) this was very visible. I'm not an expert at all, but it looked as if the ARB's were much softer than those of other drivers.

[Rallyper]

If getting up to an "aggresive" setting on PET, why not take one step back in settings when you have competition mode, for a start? Maybe many drivers should be faster then.

[Sladden]

A few years ago I said he maybe is a R Burns type. Good but not quite the best. He has been around in WRC cars for many years now.

[Rallyper]

A few years ago I said he maybe is a R Burns type. Good but not quite the best. He has been around in WRC cars for many years now.

Do not compare to RB who was one of the best. Remember he won one WRD title.

[litifeta]

Do not compare to RB who was one of the best. Remember he won one WRD title.

Richard won the world title aged 30. Mads is 26.

[Antony Warmbold]

Thanks for this interesting post Anthony. But are you sure you didn't mix up et/and and sur/on, or does Loeb really use it that way? From the systems I know, "and" is always used for two following corners in the same direction, while "on" is used for a changing direction, telling the driver to adjust his line in the exit of the first one in order to take the second corner quicker. The scotch tape on steering wheels of recce cars is still a common sight in France by the way. ;) Especially on French gravel events, where only one run of recce is allowed, with the rally-car itself (this is done in order to give equal chances to all competitors, as not everyone can afford a recce-car for gravel).

Anyway back to Mads Ostberg, I don't think it's the notes that were that bad in Germany. The only visible difference between his car is that you could see it "rolling over" more than the others. Especially in one combination of a long left (3rd gear) into right (3rd gear) this was very visible. I'm not an expert at all, but it looked as if the ARB's were much softer than those of other drivers.

yeah I did, had my head up my ass this morning, thanks...

[Doon]

Ostberg has reached his peak. I was surprised that Citroen gave him a seat in the first place, however this was possibly down to money?

Over the years Ostberg has done every rally under the sun, whilst doing most of the European WRC events he was out on national events. So with this much practise it was obvious that he would eventually reach a decent level, but now it appears he's peaked. Unlike Meeke, who hasn't been doing many events over the years, even when he had the IRC drive he wasn't doing many 'extra' events on the side. Meeke has plenty of room for improvement, and is still finding his limit and gaining experience. Ostberg has tons and tons of experience, and has found his limit which on a weekend that all drivers finish with no issues is, 5th/6th on gravel and 7th/8th on tarmac. I think they are fair assessments of his true pace.

Not trying to bash the guy, I just don't think he's that good.

[Antony Warmbold]

I agree that Mads has reached his top. It became finally obvious in the middle of the previous season. What I am worried about is that Mikkelsen isn't much better. Hope I am wrong.

Tony, it will soon be 2 years with no updates in your blog. :)

You are right, it's been too long, here's an update

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2014/08/a-pace-note-side-note.html

[N.O.T]

A few years ago I said he maybe is a R Burns type. Good but not quite the best. He has been around in WRC cars for many years now.

Do not compare Burns with 10 WRC victories and 1 World title to Ostberg... Ostberg is a nobody compared to Burns.

[pino]

As much as I like Østberg, I must agree with N.O.T :up:

[Micke_VOC]

You are right, it's been too long, here's an update

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2014/08/a-pace-note-side-note.html

I read your post regarding pacenotes..
Are you certain that Petter use minus/plus as "speed" ..
If he use the sort of system we use in Sweden/Norway a 4+ are close to a 5- ( the angle of the corner) , not the speed

[makinen_fan]

You are right, it's been too long, here's an update

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2014/08/a-pace-note-side-note.html

Really nice! Many thanks for all these info!

I have two questions for you:
How easy is it to add more and more info in your pace notes? By adding more details (like Loeb in your example) you must have the mental ability to analyse all that in the stage and drive accordingly. Although a more simplistic system (e.g. Petter) will allow to concentrate more on driving than analysing the pace notes.
Have you ever come across places where you wanted to add more info, but you know beforehand this is too much to process while driving in the stage? (out of curiosity, what system did you use?)

I appreciate that processing pace notes while driving is second nature to rally drivers, but I am not convinced that everyone (even among the current top drivers) can do it equally well.

[Antony Warmbold]

I read your post regarding pacenotes..
Are you certain that Petter use minus/plus as "speed" ..
If he use the sort of system we use in Sweden/Norway a 4+ are close to a 5- ( the angle of the corner) , not the speed

Probably due to Phil's input and origins I believe their pace notes are more "British" than Scandinavian in system, and I am sure it is based on gears (1,2,3,4,5,6).

Here you will read that Phil Mills translates a "+" as half throttle. I have also seen an interview of Phil where he explains their notes but can't seem to locate it...

http://www.crash.net/wrc/feature/112400/1/team-talk-pace-notes-explained.html

[miniwintz]

Hi Antony, it's a real pleasure to have you here.

I've recently had a conversation with Lundefaret about Seb Ogier's pacenote system, as he seem to also believe that a great deal of his speed and consistency has to do with the fact he has pretty advanced pacenotes (which are seemingly pretty close to Loeb's). Maybe Lundefaret could share some more advanced hindsight on this matter.

Also if I remember correctly, I heard that Thierry Neuville changed his pacenote system during his year in the Citroën Junior Team in 2012, and now also uses an "angle" based system similar to Loeb's.

I don't understand Norwegian but I'd be very interested to see how Mads' pacenotes are. It could indeed probably be one of the reasons he did not keep getting better and better like others of similar age and experience did (Neuville and Mikkelsen in mind).

Also could anyone explain the difference between Mikkelsen's and Ostberg's pacenotes if there is one?

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi Antony, it's a real pleasure to have you here.

I've recently had a conversation with Lundefaret about Seb Ogier's pacenote system, as he seem to also believe that a great deal of his speed and consistency has to do with the fact he has pretty advanced pacenotes (which are seemingly pretty close to Loeb's). Maybe Lundefaret could share some more advanced hindsight on this matter.

Also if I remember correctly, I heard that Thierry Neuville changed his pacenote system during his year in the Citroën Junior Team in 2012, and now also uses an "angle" based system similar to Loeb's.

I don't understand Norwegian but I'd be very interested to see how Mads' pacenotes are. It could indeed probably be one of the reasons he did not keep getting better and better like others of similar age and experience did (Neuville and Mikkelsen in mind).

Also could anyone explain the difference between Mikkelsen's and Ostberg's pacenotes if there is one?

Thanks it's a pleasure to provide insight and information to others who are hungry for it!

To my ears ogier's pace notes are indeed very similar to Loeb's and yes they are an "angle" base system. He also uses the distance in the corner info for example.

We could discuss Loeb's or Ogier's notes in great detail if people wish to hear more detail. I propose we find an in-car stage where we can have Ogier and somebody else and we do a direct comparison (does not have to be from same year). Lets make sure the co-driver is really well audible!

[SubaruNorway]

Østberg's system is a very simple 1-6 with +/- and the usual things you need to know, no meter distances to where the corner opens or tightens. They had a couple of late note accidents last year so maybe that's why they don't want more information in them.

He stopped doing rallies in Norway this year for testing apart from one event before Swedish Rally, maybe that's some of the reason why he's not finding a good rhythm with the car on stages he "doesn't know" Easier to find that good feeling with no pressure perhaps?

[Lundefaret]

First: It would be absolutely great if we could discuss Ogier and Loebs notes in detail (and others notes too). I have no clue on french, but both You miniwintz, and You Warmbold have a very good grasp of it. Maybe You should start a new thread Warmbold, wich is titled somethin sexy as Analyzis of different Pace Note systems, or something like that? I would be more than welcome to shear some of what I know, and some of what we are working on to improve the Petter-and-Phill-system even further.

Second: Mads Østberg does not use the same pace note system as Petter/Phill.
He uses 1-6 as gradients of the curve of the corner (as You drive it, not how it is in reality), but this is very common in Scandinavia. Mads does not have much add ons. Only the occational "Keep in" and some others, but a much simpler system to that of Petter.
What is similar is that Mads uses "speed notes" where the angle of the steering wheel trough a corner on the racing line decides what grading it is.
The regular Scandinavian Numeric System (wich You can by ready made when You enter a rally in Norway) is a "safety note" system, and this describes the exact curve of the corner as if You would always drive in the centre of the road, and not cut etc.

The speed notes mean that You can exit a slow corner flat in second during a 6 left. So its not gear based, tough the numeric values often give an indication on wich gear the corner can be taken in.
A - (minus) is a tighter bend than a whole number, and a + (pluss) is a more open one.
So if You use plusses and minuses You have these gradings: 1-, 1, 1+, 2-, 2, 2+ etc, so now You have 18 gradings in stead of 6.
The "problem" is that a - (minus) sounds more dangerous than a + (pluss), so inexperienced drivers often drive faster in a 2+, than a 3-;)

This numeric system alows You to use markings on the steering wheel to get them correct all the time. If some of You have not seen this I can take a pictore of our recce car (but I am clueless on how to post pictures on this forum.)

Petter and Phil revolutionized this "speed note" system, and made it much more action orientated, and very focused on a precise placing of the car. Not only the placing of the car, but the placing of the weight centre of the car.
One add on I can mention is "Line", wich describes a wider line on entry and a tighter on the exit. This is to invest, often because the next corner is going in the oposite direction, so by driving in this fashion You can straigthen out several corners after, or get a very good exit out of the next one.
"Line" is graded as "Line to", "Line in to", "Long line to" "Long Line in to", and You can keep going on to "Xtra long line in to etc". This can also be used if it is a series of bends going in the same direction, with small straights connecting them, and this way You know that You will keep out in all the corners but the last one.
Petter and Phil has a lot of these nice touches.

What Phil did was help Petter develop this system, and then he developed a system for writing this down. Phils system is the fastest way to write the pace notes, because he uses a lot of symbols in stead of whole words, and each symbol have their particular placing. This means that it is also incredibly easy to read when You get the hang of it.
For me each codriver should learn to write as fast and as organized as Phil Mills.

There have been drivers that make gear notes, Markko Märtin (the first of the modern generation driver with the new driving style, and a driver that Loeb studied to learn) is one of them.

Ogier: Regarding Ogier he uses a system wich have seven gradings in stead of 6: 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140 and 150. Above 150 its only left, right etc. And he also can use plusses and minuses.
The pluss in my opinion is that it is very easy to visualize the corners when You have the gradings.
The minus is that You can confuse these numbers with distances, and thats why You have to use "metres" after all the distances.
Loeb would change this system if he started over because of this.

[N.O.T]

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

[BDunnell]

But what is the solution? You can't un-invent technology. Do we give them more power and make them RWD? Encourage event organisers to stop using the same stages year on year? I won't even suggest getting rid of pace-notes....that's not going to happen.

All very good points. I find much modern motorsport simply too fast for my taste. Might be all very well for people raised on a diet of computer games, or those for whom outright speed is everything, but it's not for me.

[BDunnell]

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

People who take a genuine, as opposed to passing, interest in the subject? I for one find it fascinating. You're not in a position to lecture others on how to post.

[Lundefaret]

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

He he, I´m starting to like You, You are so predictable:) I had started the stop watch to see how long it would take You to reply in this matter to my longer-then-You-bother-to-read-text.
I wondered if it would take less then 10 minutes, and it did, congratulations!:)

Essential on a forum is the combination of the written word and constructive dialougue. If You cant be bothered to read, or be constructive, only comment, then I would suggest other platforms in wich to contribute Your strong opinions, like in the comments section on YouTube;)

You are obviously scared of knowledge, and learning, but dont worry. You are not alone. The Catholics used to kill all people with new insights in medicine (witches), astrology (blasfemic, saying the earth was round, and not in the centre of the universe etc), etc etc:)

[Antony Warmbold]

Really nice! Many thanks for all these info!

I have two questions for you:
How easy is it to add more and more info in your pace notes? By adding more details (like Loeb in your example) you must have the mental ability to analyse all that in the stage and drive accordingly. Although a more simplistic system (e.g. Petter) will allow to concentrate more on driving than analysing the pace notes.
Have you ever come across places where you wanted to add more info, but you know beforehand this is too much to process while driving in the stage? (out of curiosity, what system did you use?)

I appreciate that processing pace notes while driving is second nature to rally drivers, but I am not convinced that everyone (even among the current top drivers) can do it equally well.

I believe the key things are:

1. enough time for the co-drriver to read the info.

2. that the info follows an order and a logic that your brain can process efficiently.

3. a lot of work learning to process the info as you are driving. My wife is a pianist and when I see her read a classical partition (which is extremely complicated) and play at the same time something different with each hand plus her foot sometimes pushing the pedal I understand the skill required and years of practice it took to get there!

4. you need to start early in your adulthood to train your brain to listen to lots of info and be able to take it in and use it as you're driving. This will help understand what I mean: http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/learning/video-learn002b-uk_kf_growthcyc.html

I started practicing listening and acting on it with Colin McRae Rally on PC when I was a teen.

My system was angle based with lots of corner shape descriptions and lots of speed details. I included a page of my notes as an example. It reads:

left entry little faster right ninety four keep out and
caution shorter left ninety entry immediate slower second right ninety three into ninety fast entry over crest left bad 3rd gear ok
and 100 faster left ninety in and triple caution special right entry over crest into 50
special much slower third right ninety three entry into twenty super short right ninety three and ...

-->just as an example the last line explained:

special - it's a tricky corner / much slower - self explanatory / third - the apex is 3 times farther around the corner than "normal" / right ninety three - it's a ninety degree corner in third gear / into - it's a combination corner and there is no direction change / 20 - distance until that next corner / super short - very sharp corner / ... "plus sign" - and (direction change)

The underlining tells the co-driver to read fast and the double underlining very fast. These notes were derived from my dad's, I modernized them and adapted them to my preferences and added gear indications among other things. I also got inspired from others. For example "Go" right something indicates it's a full throttle corner no matter what and "Braking" as in "flat right braking into 100 turn right ninety two". I got those from Richard Burns of whom I was a big fan.

[Antony Warmbold]

Lundefaret and SubaruNorway:

Thanks for the info and not surpised that Ostberg's notes are very simple. With notes like that it is a huge disadvantage to be fast and especially on tarmac where you cannot drive sideways, in my opinion.

As soon as I have more time I will start a thread to compare pace notes. Good idea.

[Lundefaret]

Really nice! Many thanks for all these info!

I have two questions for you:
How easy is it to add more and more info in your pace notes? By adding more details (like Loeb in your example) you must have the mental ability to analyse all that in the stage and drive accordingly. Although a more simplistic system (e.g. Petter) will allow to concentrate more on driving than analysing the pace notes.
Have you ever come across places where you wanted to add more info, but you know beforehand this is too much to process while driving in the stage? (out of curiosity, what system did you use?)

I appreciate that processing pace notes while driving is second nature to rally drivers, but I am not convinced that everyone (even among the current top drivers) can do it equally well.

I will add on Warmbolds respons.

The way Petter could add info was because the info was action orientaded, and required little or no prosessing. This way You can also rescieve the pace notes much later.
But to be able to di this the pace notes have to be transformed to aqiuered reflexes, and this You can only do trough repitition, and thus programming Your brain. Like a classical pianist:)

[Juha_Koo]

Thing that has to be taken into account are different languages. Loeb's pacenotes would be nearly impossible (I said nearly ;) ) to be used in Finnish. I give an example by using three first rows of Anthony's example of Loeb's notes. Examples are written in the way of the spoken language (grammatically correct versions differ quite a bit).

Oikee täys pitkä ja pitkä nyppy suoraan.

Kakssataaviiskyt metriä, vasen satanelkyt miinus puolipitkä, älä leikkaa alussa, vähän soraa lopussa.

Sata metriä, huomio, merkiltä oikee sataviiskytkuus kirraa sata puolipitkä.


For my brains and mouth it doesn't work... Especially the "metres" part doesn't work in Finnish. But I examined the subject a bit deeper and made the following findings:

The Finnish version contains 28 words and 208 characters, while the French version contains 33 words and 218 characters. So in the light of numbers, Finnish version should be better (more condensed) but it is not so straight-forward. While in French e.g. the word "metres" is pronounced like "metr" (100 metres= "SaMetr") in Finnish it's "metrii" or "metriä" (100 metres="sata metrii"). So actually Finnish words are longer to pronounce.

Small edit: I have always believed that pacenotes have to reflect driver's personal affections, so it's very very difficult (impossible?) to completely revamp the system while it's been used for many years. For example in my opinion Novikov had the most crappy pacenotes I have ever seen (90% of the notes were "right one, left one gas, right zero, left one"). Only time I heard other number than 0 or 1 was on a tight junction "left three, out road". BUT still the guy managed to do 15 WRC stage wins, two podiums and 173 championship points. THEN AGAIN, he was very accident-prone and I can bet that pacenotes were partly to blame. But in my opinion it comes to show, that if you're a fast driver and on top of that have a good "road-eye" (like drivers in Finland have, because of the blind rallies) you don't actually need über-precise pacenote system to clock top times. You sort of "attack into the corners without knowing the shape exactly, you just have a raw idea of the (speed/turn)category of the corner" and drive it through. I could argue that this is one reason why many Finns haven't been able to make progress on tarmac.

[Antony Warmbold]

Thing that has to be taken into account are different languages. Loeb's pacenotes would be nearly impossible (I said nearly ;) ) to be used in Finnish. I give an example by using three first rows of Anthony's example of Loeb's notes. Examples are written in the way of the spoken language (grammatically correct versions differ quite a bit).

Oikee täys pitkä ja pitkä nyppy suoraan.

Kakssataaviiskyt metriä, vasen satanelkyt miinus puolipitkä, älä leikkaa alussa, vähän soraa lopussa.

Sata metriä, huomio, merkiltä oikee sataviiskytkuus kirraa sata puolipitkä.


For my brains and mouth it doesn't work... Especially the "metres" part doesn't work in Finnish. But I examined the subject a bit deeper and made the following findings:

The Finnish version contains 28 words and 208 characters, while the French version contains 33 words and 218 characters. So in the light of numbers, Finnish version should be better (more condensed) but it is not so straight-forward. While in French e.g. the word "metres" is pronounced like "metr" (100 metres= "SaMetr") in Finnish it's "metrii" or "metriä" (100 metres="sata metrii"). So actually Finnish words are longer to pronounce.

That's a very good point Juha. My wife who's a Finn and a linguist from Universirty education would agree with you on that !!

[Lundefaret]

Thing that has to be taken into account are different languages. Loeb's pacenotes would be nearly impossible (I said nearly ;) ) to be used in Finnish. I give an example by using three first rows of Anthony's example of Loeb's notes. Examples are written in the way of the spoken language (grammatically correct versions differ quite a bit).

Oikee täys pitkä ja pitkä nyppy suoraan.

Kakssataaviiskyt metriä, vasen satanelkyt miinus puolipitkä, älä leikkaa alussa, vähän soraa lopussa.

Sata metriä, huomio, merkiltä oikee sataviiskytkuus kirraa sata puolipitkä.


For my brains and mouth it doesn't work... Especially the "metres" part doesn't work in Finnish. But I examined the subject a bit deeper and made the following findings:

The Finnish version contains 28 words and 208 characters, while the French version contains 33 words and 218 characters. So in the light of numbers, Finnish version should be better (more condensed) but it is not so straight-forward. While in French e.g. the word "metres" is pronounced like "metr" (100 metres= "SaMetr") in Finnish it's "metrii" or "metriä" (100 metres="sata metrii"). So actually Finnish words are longer to pronounce.

Small edit: I have always believed that pacenotes have to reflect driver's personal affections, so it's very very difficult (impossible?) to completely revamp the system while it's been used for many years. For example in my opinion Novikov had the most crappy pacenotes I have ever seen (90% of the notes were "right one, left one gas, right zero, left one"). Only time I heard other number than 0 or 1 was on a tight junction "left three, out road". BUT still the guy managed to do 15 WRC stage wins, two podiums and 173 championship points. THEN AGAIN, he was very accident-prone and I can bet that pacenotes were partly to blame. But in my opinion it comes to show, that if you're a fast driver and on top of that have a good "road-eye" (like drivers in Finland have, because of the blind rallies) you don't actually need über-precise pacenote system to clock top times. You sort of "attack into the corners without knowing the shape exactly, you just have a raw idea of the (speed/turn)category of the corner" and drive it through. I could argue that this is one reason why many Finns haven't been able to make progress on tarmac.

Very clever insight regarding the language!
In Norwegian pace notes we often use Swedish words that are shorter and easier to say, like "krön" would be "bakketopp" in Norwegian (crest.)
The way we work with our talent, trying to further develop the pace notes (under the watchfull eye of Olav Bodilsen, so we dont end up fixing what isnt broken), we use mostly English words, but with the numbers spoken in Norwegian.

Regarding Finnish pace notes.
The last Finnish World Champion was in 2002. And he had some accidents.
Tommi Mäkkinen was four times WRC champ. But had his shear of accidents.
The finns used to have the best pace notes, but now they seem left behind.
And since Loeb, Petter etc took the ball game even further, You can not be WRC champ with unpresice pace notes (at least not when You are fighting some french guy that has precise ones, and knows how to drive Nose End First;))

But this is a circle. Pace notes affect driving, the understanding of driving affects pace notes, the better or worse understanding of driving and pace notes affects how high You can have the treshold of Your set up, etc.

I have said this in the Nose End First thread, and it awaked a small uproar: "Going off is old fashioned." If You are up against a guy like Loeb, You cant afford to go of the road. The pace notes are instrumental in this.

Thank You again Juha_Koo, Your language insight was a mind opener:)

[Frostmourne]

Nice discussion about the pace note system. I was wondering for sometime. If the driver is the one who is making the pace notes for the stage, what is the co-driver input into this? just write them down, and read it to the driver?? I mean what makes co-driver X better than co-driver Y? the ability to read the notes loud and clear?

[noel157]

Wrong post, ignore. No delete option any more?

[seb_sh]

Great thread, I'm enjoying the insights and examples. Pace notes have fascinated me since I started to watch rallying and play various rally games on PC.

It would be great to have a side by side comparison as Antony suggested, between Loeb and Ogier but also others as well.

[raybak]

Nice discussion about the pace note system. I was wondering for sometime. If the driver is the one who is making the pace notes for the stage, what is the co-driver input into this? just write them down, and read it to the driver?? I mean what makes co-driver X better than co-driver Y? the ability to read the notes loud and clear?
As an experienced codriver, I do have input while writing the notes. And have the ability to write quickly during the stage if a change is needed for the second pass.

I codrive for several different types of driver, some like lot's of info in the notes and others like very little. Over the years I have developed my own language (codriver shorthand) and it works well for me but may be useless to others.

I think a major thing is that you are intune with your driver, you need to understand them, what speeds they are capable of, when they want their calls. Analysis of incar is very important as well. Before events I get my drivers to look over the videos of others doing the same stages. Your notes should always be evolving, as Antony has said he has developed his notes from his father's system and it will continue to evolve. I have seen some of my notes from 6 years ago running with Derek and our notes from now are totally different, in some stages we have more info and in others we have less.

The major thing is that no actual way is wrong, it's just different. It's finding the style to make you go at your fastest without crashing.

Ray

[litifeta]

Mads is only 26 years old.

He has had to fund his career nearly all the way so you can imagine the stress. He has had problems with cars, and suffered with pacenotes causing accidents before.

It would be great for him to have the confidence of a paypacket and knowing he could have the confidence in pacenotes again, but it is a tough gig when you know that if you crash, your career is on the line.

[Lundefaret]

Mads is only 26 years old.

He has had to fund his career nearly all the way so you can imagine the stress. He has had problems with cars, and suffered with pacenotes causing accidents before.

It would be great for him to have the confidence of a paypacket and knowing he could have the confidence in pacenotes again, but it is a tough gig when you know that if you crash, your career is on the line.

Mads is also cognitively strong (i.e. smart), so if it is one driver that actually can change/improve it is him.

[Simmi]

It would be great for him to have the confidence of a paypacket and knowing he could have the confidence in pacenotes again, but it is a tough gig when you know that if you crash, your career is on the line.

After 74 WRC starts it's tough to keep making excuses for Mads. Honestly not buying any of the above.

And it's a catch-22 situation because he's not shown that he's good enough for an elusive paid drive.

[TAMH]

Will Mads get a seat in Citroën? Or was this season his last?

[skarderud]

He has said that he is doing all wrc rounds next year. But not in witch car/team.

[sollitt]

He has had to fund his career nearly all the way so you can imagine the stress.
It would be great for him to have the confidence of a paypacket ... but it is a tough gig when you know that if you crash, your career is on the line. This is exactly the issue faced by any driver not on a full time contract, and one that we've spoken about before.
The confidence provided by the security of continued employment regardless of outcome is a significant advantage for those lucky enough to enjoy it.

[Rallyper]

Why not ten offered rounds in DS3 and paying for the three other rounds as third driver in DS3?

[skarderud]

I put my cents on mads in the 2. car in 10 rounds and a 3. car in the other 3 rounds. And in a DS.

[Rallyper]

I put my cents on mads in the 2. car in 10 rounds and a 3. car in the other 3 rounds. And in a DS.

Yeah, that´s what I had in mind too.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Why not ten offered rounds in DS3 and paying for the three other rounds as third driver in DS3?

When you say "10 offered rounds" what is the background to this offer. Is there any article or interview where 10 round offer is referred to ?

[Rallyper]

Ten rounds was what´s said right after or days before RGB if I´m not wrong. Could be a rumour but if I remember the quote looked quite serious. Maybe words from Matton, I don´t know?

[noel157]

Mads is only 26 years old.

He has had to fund his career nearly all the way so you can imagine the stress. He has had problems with cars, and suffered with pacenotes causing accidents before.

It would be great for him to have the confidence of a paypacket and knowing he could have the confidence in pacenotes again, but it is a tough gig when you know that if you crash, your career is on the line.

But isn't his family providing the funds? It's not as if he's knocking on doors looking for money.

[skarderud]

His dad runs a computercompany, but he has been sponsored by companies like coca cola, vi menn (a mens magasine), and a lot of others thru the years.

[nafpaktos]

Something irrelevant.has anyone of you ever been impressed by mads drive in a ss??(i mean from close)

[BDA Cosworth]

Something irrelevant.has anyone of you ever been impressed by mads drive in a ss??(i mean from close)

I've never thought "yep, he's the next WRC star".

There is a lot of poster child mentality in the sport today, some seats I feel were a little "gifted" to some. The amount of stand out talent today is 5 times what it was back in the 90's in my opinion.

[nafpaktos]

I've never thought "yep, he's the next WRC star".

The amount of stand out talent today is 5 times what it was back in the 90's in my opinion.
Why you say this?

[skarderud]

This is quite nice driving:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oDZaNa6Xe8E

[SubaruNorway]

Something irrelevant.has anyone of you ever been impressed by mads drive in a ss??(i mean from close)

Being privileged enough to have been able to follow Mads from the early days i would definitely say I've been impressed, he was always awesome to watch on the stages and the fight between him and Mikkelsen in 2008 was incredible.

I put together a Subaru video of Mads a couple years ago so you can have a watch yourself, 238.000 views says it all i think :)
The Ford video only getting 6000 views must have something to do with the car i think :p

The Subaru Era
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBE8foZQ3u0

The Ford Era
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHo9jfv6NcM

[TAMH]

Mads excited to go out with the news for 2015 later today

[Rallyper]

No one can take anything away from Mads being a good enjoyable driver whom is enough fast and spectacular on stages. He wouldn´t be where he is otherwise.

Exciting hearing him confirm one more year at DS (Citroen)!

[jacko]

Citroën Racing confirms another year with Mads Ostberg for the entire championship. Note: he will not be nominated for Citroën in Monte-Carlo, that will be Meeke (as the no.1 driver) and Sebastien Loeb.
Think its' the best choice made by Citroën, Mads is the best of the rest available, has experience (also with the DS3) and hungry to perform even better.
With Loeb (maybe) on tarmac rounds (quick look at the WTCC-calendar it's possible) it's a very interesting combination.

[Rallyper]

No one can take anything away from Mads being a good enjoyable driver whom is enough fast and spectacular on stages. He wouldn´t be where he is otherwise.

Exciting hearing him confirm one more year at DS (Citroen)!

Told ya! Funding maybe partly even from Adapta, but I can live with that also.

[A FONDO]

Should we rename the topic to "Please Mads, something different this time"?

Not just his poor performance but his continuous moaning from car setup during the 3rd (third) day. He is at his home turf; he has good experience with this car and generally this platform; he drives for factory team with proper engineers; he did a local rally before Sweden. What more does he want? Maybe he doesn't really know. What is needed to occur so that he would change? Is it possible at all?

[Fly]

Yves Matton was commentating the Power stage on Belgian TV.
He said he was clearly disappointed by his performance but also that there was something wrong with the car. They couldn't find the problem.
It was only solved before power stage.

[stefanvv]

"Please Mads, something different this time"?

Seems nobody cares. He had some glimpse of something more while was driving for Adapta, but factory drives didn't do any good for his results. Looks like the next middle range WRC driver, no development for 3rd year in factory team isn't good, driving just for fun is all he does, not seeking better results, why should be "something different", he seem happy with current state.

[RS]

I'm not surprised. He has been around a long time already so I'm not sure there was much room for improvement from his driving.

I think both he and Citroen expected him to fight for the win in Sweden, and it didn't happen. So we got sulking about 'problems' with the car instead.

[EstWRC]

i think it will be his last season as a factory driver.

[N.O.T]

i think it will be his last season as a factory driver.

i hope he takes citroen with him with hyundai/vw/toyota i think we are good to get rid of transvestite teams.

[AL14]

Citroen made a mistake keeping him this year. They could have taken some young guy and think about the future instead of manufacturers points, there is no difference between second and fourth in manufacturer standings, nobody cares.
But I think that maybe they don't think about future cause they won't have one. I think next season will be the last one for them.

[lewalcindor]

i hope he takes citroen with him with hyundai/vw/toyota i think we are good to get rid of transvestite teams.

What's a "transvestite team"?

[b3637853]

Citroen made a mistake keeping him this year. They could have taken some young guy and think about the future instead of manufacturers points, there is no difference between second and fourth in manufacturer standings, nobody cares.
But I think that maybe they don't think about future cause they won't have one. I think next season will be the last one for them.

I'm not a fan of Ostbergs driving as well, but you need look at the facts. He's a perfect factory driver, because he is bringing points. Ostberg probably won't be event winning driver, but something Sordo-like good on all surfaces allrounder. So we can't have that type of drivers in WRC? Is it better to have Bouffier who can win Monte Carlo and be shit in other rounds? Who could Citroen take instead of him? Hanninen, Breen, maybe Kubica? I don't think so.

[skarderud]

Citroen made a mistake keeping him this year. They could have taken some young guy and think about the future instead of manufacturers points, there is no difference between second and fourth in manufacturer standings, nobody cares.
But I think that maybe they don't think about future cause they won't have one. I think next season will be the last one for them.
He has been around for a while, but he is still young. If thats your thing against mads?

Yes, he can blame the car for bad performance, but this weekend he has the right to do so. Even Citroën-teamboss said that after the race.
Lots of electronic fails, sensors falling out, and last, the handbrake locked all 4 wheels when he losts much time on sunday morning. Not his weekend.
time will show if its more to come or not.

[AL14]

I'm not a fan of Ostbergs driving as well, but you need look at the facts. He's a perfect factory driver, because he is bringing points. Ostberg probably won't be event winning driver, but something Sordo-like good on all surfaces allrounder. So we can't have that type of drivers in WRC? Is it better to have Bouffier who can win Monte Carlo and be shit in other rounds? Who could Citroen take instead of him? Hanninen, Breen, maybe Kubica? I don't think so.

He is a perfect factory driver but as I said if Citroen care about go back to good old times they should focus on future and not on some manufacturers points today. Today VW dominate the scene. There are plenty of youngsters hungry for a sit in WRC. Tanak was a free driver till december, Abbring as well, they have Lefebvre and all the other french guys. Why don't give them the occasion to learn and make experience now?
In Italy we say: "make a step backward in order to make 3 forward later" ;)

By the way all this makes sense if Citroen wants to stay in WRC, we are not sure they want.


He has been around for a while, but he is still young. If thats your thing against mads?

Yes, he can blame the car for bad performance, but this weekend he has the right to do so. Even Citroën-teamboss said that after the race.
Lots of electronic fails, sensors falling out, and last, the handbrake locked all 4 wheels when he losts much time on sunday morning. Not his weekend.
time will show if its more to come or not.

I'm not talking about this weekend but about last 3 years. In rally the age counts very less than experience, he has a lot of experience now and he is (and will be?) the same driver.
Nothing against him though, it's just a technical observation.

[WUff1]

I'm not a fan of Ostbergs driving as well, but you need look at the facts. He's a perfect factory driver, because he is bringing points. Ostberg probably won't be event winning driver, but something Sordo-like good on all surfaces allrounder. So we can't have that type of drivers in WRC? Is it better to have Bouffier who can win Monte Carlo and be shit in other rounds? Who could Citroen take instead of him? Hanninen, Breen, maybe Kubica? I don't think so.

He´s just a boring runner-up of the top drivers. OK, but no WRC-materiel in long term. Suppose he´s just there because of his money.

OK, reminds me of Hirvonen now.

[stefanvv]

OK, reminds me of Hirvonen now.

Hirvonen was much better, Ostberg is not on his level yet, probably he will never be actually.

[Doon]

He´s just a boring runner-up of the top drivers. OK, but no WRC-materiel in long term. Suppose he´s just there because of his money.

OK, reminds me of Hirvonen now.

Really? People are quick to forget Hirvonen's achievements.

But yes, Ostberg is one of the least capable drivers to land a drive in a top team.

[N.O.T]

Ostberg is nowhere close to hirvonen... Hirvonen lost his touch in 2010 after crashing into that iceberg called Loeb and his career went down faster than the titanic... before then he was a very fast driver capable of titles if Loeb was not around.

Ostberg is nothing anymore and never was something more than a disappointing mediocrity. I think he deserved a chance in a top team to see what he can make of the opportunity but now he should go home.

[MJW]

Ostberg is nowhere close to hirvonen... Hirvonen lost his touch in 2010 after crashing into that iceberg called Loeb and his career went down faster than the titanic... before then he was a very fast driver capable of titles if Loeb was not around.

Ostberg is nothing anymore and never was something more than a disappointing mediocrity. I think he deserved a chance in a top team to see what he can make of the opportunity but now he should go home.I think rather than crash into the icceberg called Loeb, what Mikko crashed into was Finnish countryside on Urria stage on Rally Finland, that was an aircraft crash type crash and in my opinion Mikko never completely got it back after that. That was 2010.

[N.O.T]

i ment 2009... not 2010. The year he lost for a single point.

[MJW]

i ment 2009... not 2010. The year he lost for a single point.
I still think the crash on Urria took the ability to push to the maximum from Mikko.

[N.O.T]

I still think the crash on Urria took the ability to push to the maximum from Mikko.

what you think is rather irrelevant to the true facts.

[skarderud]

Ostberg is nothing anymore and never was something more than a disappointing mediocrity.

It takes one to know one?

[dodge33cymru]

This board confuses me sometimes, I often get the impression that everyone preferred the days of two, three or four drivers who could win and no-one else matters. Ostberg in this thread, Paddon in the other.

Take the VWs out of the equation, because they are clearly better than anyone else here, and it was between Ostberg, Tanak and Neuville of the other drivers. Neville shone at the end, but Mads was perfectly respectable were it not for overdriving and car troubles (it could be argued one is a result of the other).

For Citroen, 2nd place in the manufacturer's standings is the best they can hope for and it makes sense to have a more reliable driver to complement Meeke's aggression.

Sweden is the one where he's under real pressure to perform and did he do terribly? No. Did he do well? No, he should have been able to get the best result possible with the car rather than looking for something more, and I'm not convinced he's great at dealing with the pressure when doing well.

Does it make him a poor driver? By no means. He was an exciting youngster and got a deserved chance to prove himself. Maybe by now he hasn't realised that potential, but for sure he's a better shout for a championship drive than the likes of Camilli and Chardonnet (who, don't forget, are a similar age).

Either way, the more guys in WRC cars the better, and I hope Mads is around for another few years. I doubt he'll keep the Citroen drive for much longer, but I fear Citroen themselves aren't long for the sport.

It's also not like the ERC has an obvious talent for them to try out right now, with the championship surely between Breen and Kajto. The other threads talking about up-and-comers are filled with differing opinions, very little consensus as to who should be given a chance.

Anyway, bit of a ramble there, but in summary I can understand Matton's logic completely (even though he was faced with an unwinnable decision).

Mads is here for the year, let's see how he can get on with the massively favourable road conditions he'll get on the next few rounds.

[Toyoda]

This board confuses me sometimes, I often get the impression that everyone preferred the days of two, three or four drivers who could win and no-one else matters. Ostberg in this thread, Paddon in the other.

Take the VWs out of the equation, because they are clearly better than anyone else here, and it was between Ostberg, Tanak and Neuville of the other drivers. Neville shone at the end, but Mads was perfectly respectable were it not for overdriving and car troubles (it could be argued one is a result of the other).

For Citroen, 2nd place in the manufacturer's standings is the best they can hope for and it makes sense to have a more reliable driver to complement Meeke's aggression.

Sweden is the one where he's under real pressure to perform and did he do terribly? No. Did he do well? No, he should have been able to get the best result possible with the car rather than looking for something more, and I'm not convinced he's great at dealing with the pressure when doing well.

Does it make him a poor driver? By no means. He was an exciting youngster and got a deserved chance to prove himself. Maybe by now he hasn't realised that potential, but for sure he's a better shout for a championship drive than the likes of Camilli and Chardonnet (who, don't forget, are a similar age).

Either way, the more guys in WRC cars the better, and I hope Mads is around for another few years. I doubt he'll keep the Citroen drive for much longer, but I fear Citroen themselves aren't long for the sport.

It's also not like the ERC has an obvious talent for them to try out right now, with the championship surely between Breen and Kajto. The other threads talking about up-and-comers are filled with differing opinions, very little consensus as to who should be given a chance.

Anyway, bit of a ramble there, but in summary I can understand Matton's logic completely (even though he was faced with an unwinnable decision).

Mads is here for the year, let's see how he can get on with the massively favourable road conditions he'll get on the next few rounds.

Well put! It seems that unless you are Ogier in this forum you are nothing which is plain wrong, Ostberg was on pace with Neuville...Drivers are what they are, Ogier is clearly out front still.

[N.O.T]

Well put! It seems that unless you are Ogier in this forum you are nothing which is plain wrong, Ostberg was on pace with Neuville...Drivers are what they are, Ogier is clearly out front still.

well you do not hear the same comments for meeke, neuville, latvala, mikkelsen and others... becuase although they are not at Ogiers level they seem to try to get there... Ostberg maxed out his speed and it is not good enough... he should go home.

[Abarth]

What are the odds for Ostberg in a factory seat in 2017?

[TWRC]

What are the odds for Ostberg in a factory seat in 2017?
I think if he can't stay at Ford, he can have a chance with Toyota. Depends on what Malcolm and Tommi have envisioned, but I would be surprised if he couldn't hang around, he's one of the few who can bring money (and Malcolm might need that). Other than those two I can hardly see him anywhere else. But time will tell.

[WUff1]

At least he´s not testing the 2017 car. Camilli and Matthew Wilson are test drivers.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

At least he´s not testing the 2017 car. Camilli and Matthew Wilson are test drivers.

What 2017 car ? Still waiting for the Mk8 Fiesta it is based upon to be built !

[KiwiWRCfan]

A rally blog discussing Mads http://echocentrix.blogspot.co.nz/2016/07/wrc-16-mads-mystery.html

[Rallyper]

A rally blog discussing Mads http://echocentrix.blogspot.co.nz/2016/07/wrc-16-mads-mystery.html

However, Poland more proved Tanak is way more braindead than Mads, than the capacity of fiesta.
I do think there is some thruth in the blog as well. Mads has to leave comfort zone. Bcs every other driver in WRC does.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A rally blog discussing Mads http://echocentrix.blogspot.co.nz/2016/07/wrc-16-mads-mystery.html

Good, balanced and accurate take on Ostberg at the mid-point of the season. He clearly needs to improve his pace... but whether its just him needing to change, or the car being set-up perfectly is debatable.

His regular comments that he is driving well when his times aren't great, seems to be his way of saying 'but the car isnt right for me'.

But the likes of Tanak has shown what the car is capable of at times. It will be interesting to see if Tanak's pace in Poland can be repeated elsewhere and if he can beat Mads as best Fiesta driver in the Championship.

[Simmi]

Mads' current spell at M-Sport reminds me quite a bit of Hirvonen's second run with the team. There was all this fanfare beforehand about being 'home' and being 'rejuvenated'. And it just hasn't worked out. The desire doesn't seem to be there.

For me it boils down to what does Malcolm want out of his WRC team? Do they want to try and contest for third or fourth place for example in the manufacturers, is that a priority? Because if so then you'd keep Mads. If you want to demonstrate the capabilities of your car, set some quick stage times and try to get yourself in a position to win rallies - then he isn't your man.

I'm also not sure Mads is going to get any better next year, plus his dip is coinciding with a key period for sorting out contracts. So let's see what happens.

[Rallyper]

Demonstarting capabilities of the car costs money from MW pocket. Let´s wait and see what happens. That includes more testing for Mads.

[Simmi]

Demonstarting capabilities of the car costs money from MW pocket. Let´s wait and see what happens. That includes more testing for Mads.

The biggest issue facing Mads is that he's starting to get out-paced by Camilli. You can't blame that on lack of testing.

[Rallyper]

Camilli has done very good progress, but that bcs of his abilities not Mads.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The strange thing was that his 'down-change issue' that was present in a couple of events was apparently solved by testing and his times improved in Sardinia... but then it seems to have re-occurred already by Poland. That just cant be right.

Regarding what M-Sport want, none of us know. If they want someone with a decent position in the Championship then a steady drive from Mads is just what is required. Fast, but no risks. MW might just want Tanak to be the one to go for stage wins and promote the WRC Fiesta (and Dmack) by doing that.

But for me the bottom line is that M-Sport cant be expected to compete with the factory teams and whatever strategy they are using is not going to get them a lot of success.
They need Ford back and/or money to employ the best.

[dimviii]

But for me the bottom line is that M-Sport cant be expected to compete with the factory teams and whatever strategy they are using is not going to get them a lot of success.
They need Ford back and/or money to employ the best.

of course M sport can win championships with a duel of good drivers ,even without Ford backing.
Fiesta is a capable car at tarmac and gravel. Their economics allows them to be present at all wrc rounds,cant find any reason why not to be champions,if the driver is capable.

[SubaruNorway]

There was definitely a problem when Henning even got dispensation to run the old regular sequential in Sardinia

[RAS007]

Mads' current spell at M-Sport reminds me quite a bit of Hirvonen's second run with the team. There was all this fanfare beforehand about being 'home' and being 'rejuvenated'. And it just hasn't worked out. The desire doesn't seem to be there.

For me it boils down to what does Malcolm want out of his WRC team? Do they want to try and contest for third or fourth place for example in the manufacturers, is that a priority? Because if so then you'd keep Mads. If you want to demonstrate the capabilities of your car, set some quick stage times and try to get yourself in a position to win rallies - then he isn't your man.

I'm also not sure Mads is going to get any better next year, plus his dip is coinciding with a key period for sorting out contracts. So let's see what happens.

This is the central question, re: M-Sport. My best guess is that Malcolm is trying to hang in there until either a major sponsor is found, or until Ford comes back into the picture. He certainly has the money to pay a top driver, but seems determined to not do that. That said, why would a top driver go to M-Sport? Nobody seems to be able to say for certain if the car is on the pace or not. If that isn't it, then I don't know…he can't be content with things the way they are….but maybe he's happy to chug along, getting the occasional podium.

[DonJippo]

This is the central question, re: M-Sport. My best guess is that Malcolm is trying to hang in there until either a major sponsor is found, or until Ford comes back into the picture.

Reason why M-Sport is in WRC is to sell cars, that's where the money comes from.

[janvanvurpa]

of course M sport can win championships with a duel of good drivers ,even without Ford backing.
Fiesta is a capable car at tarmac and gravel. Their economics allows them to be present at all wrc rounds,cant find any reason why not to be champions, if the driver is capable.

That's a mighty big if you have there.

It does seem like MW Motorsport, much like Pro-drive before them (and with some of the same key people)
are themselves not really devoted to the idea to be champignons . Drivers capable of being champignons cost a LOT of money... That seems to be in conflict with Malcolm's evident intention to MAKE lots of money and to expand the business into a grand scheme...because the big growth in all kinds of other (other than winning Whirled Rally Champignonskit title) operations didn't happen by accident or just spring up like mushrooms after a rain.

In my somewhat simplistic view and limited experience: if you want to fight for WRC wins, then fight for WRC wins with a little --sorry folks my Angleski fails me--so I use a word from when I was fighting for skills to do another motorsport--- with a little 'envishet'...That's Square-head talk and is 3 parts: 'en' = one; then 'vis' (not to be confused with fis) is 'vision' or 'view' and then the end 'het' is like ness...One-vision-ness..

(va fan säger vi på engelska?)

And if we look back at all the years of M-sport that seems to be lacking especially when we look at how guys there seem to languish and lose direction or momentum.


It seems Malcolm wants a car business empire in Cumbria and it seems he is winning that battle.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Time to move the above discussion to the M-Sport thread.

Now back to Ostberg...

[Lundefaret]

That's a mighty big if you have there.

It does seem like MW Motorsport, much like Pro-drive before them (and with some of the same key people)
are themselves not really devoted to the idea to be champignons . Drivers capable of being champignons cost a LOT of money... That seems to be in conflict with Malcolm's evident intention to MAKE lots of money and to expand the business into a grand scheme...because the big growth in all kinds of other (other than winning Whirled Rally Champignonskit title) operations didn't happen by accident or just spring up like mushrooms after a rain.

In my somewhat simplistic view and limited experience: if you want to fight for WRC wins, then fight for WRC wins with a little --sorry folks my Angleski fails me--so I use a word from when I was fighting for skills to do another motorsport--- with a little 'envishet'...That's Square-head talk and is 3 parts: 'en' = one; then 'vis' (not to be confused with fis) is 'vision' or 'view' and then the end 'het' is like ness...One-vision-ness..

(va fan säger vi på engelska?)

And if we look back at all the years of M-sport that seems to be lacking especially when we look at how guys there seem to languish and lose direction or momentum.


It seems Malcolm wants a car business empire in Cumbria and it seems he is winning that battle.

Single mindedness?

[N.O.T]

In my somewhat simplistic view and limited experience: if you want to fight for WRC wins, then fight for WRC wins with a little --sorry folks my Angleski fails me--so I use a word from when I was fighting for skills to do another motorsport--- with a little 'envishet'...That's Square-head talk and is 3 parts: 'en' = one; then 'vis' (not to be confused with fis) is 'vision' or 'view' and then the end 'het' is like ness...One-vision-ness.[I].

(va fan säger vi på engelska?)


http://i.imgur.com/rmphKPO.gif

[Rallyper]

In my somewhat simplistic view and limited experience: if you want to fight for WRC wins, then fight for WRC wins with a little --sorry folks my Angleski fails me--so I use a word from when I was fighting for skills to do another motorsport--- with a little 'envishet'...That's Square-head talk and is 3 parts: 'en' = one; then 'vis' (not to be confused with fis) is 'vision' or 'view' and then the end 'het' is like ness...One-vision-ness.[I].

(va fan säger vi på engelska?)

.

Persistence? Obstinacy? Insistence?

[RAS007]

That's a mighty big if you have there.

It does seem like MW Motorsport, much like Pro-drive before them (and with some of the same key people)
are themselves not really devoted to the idea to be champignons . Drivers capable of being champignons cost a LOT of money... That seems to be in conflict with Malcolm's evident intention to MAKE lots of money and to expand the business into a grand scheme...because the big growth in all kinds of other (other than winning Whirled Rally Champignonskit title) operations didn't happen by accident or just spring up like mushrooms after a rain.

In my somewhat simplistic view and limited experience: if you want to fight for WRC wins, then fight for WRC wins with a little --sorry folks my Angleski fails me--so I use a word from when I was fighting for skills to do another motorsport--- with a little 'envishet'...That's Square-head talk and is 3 parts: 'en' = one; then 'vis' (not to be confused with fis) is 'vision' or 'view' and then the end 'het' is like ness...One-vision-ness..

(va fan säger vi på engelska?)

And if we look back at all the years of M-sport that seems to be lacking especially when we look at how guys there seem to languish and lose direction or momentum.


It seems Malcolm wants a car business empire in Cumbria and it seems he is winning that battle.


In other words, Malcolm is not really interested in winning, anymore. If it happens as a byproduct of expanding his car business, great, but it is not the main goal.

[janvanvurpa]

Single mindedness?

Yeah ....best..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZXlhSgq7us


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DZXlhSgq7us" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[janvanvurpa]

In other words, Malcolm is not really interested in winning, anymore. If it happens as a byproduct of expanding his car business, great, but it is not the main goal.


It seems quite evident...especially looking at driver choice over the years..

[janvanvurpa]

http://i.imgur.com/rmphKPO.gif


Don't understand 'envishet', even when explained?

You're not trying hard enough.

[danon]

Yeah ....best..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZXlhSgq7us

http://i.giftrunk.com/gmvpaz.gif

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ostberg 2017 plans just confirmed:

WRC - all remaining 2017 events
ERC - Poland & Italy in R5
Spain - two rounds for tarmac practice

Podcast including interview: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-qu8kn-69e93e

[Zeakiwi]

Just to put the car link in the Mads' message thread
https://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/ford-fiesta-wrc-2017/

What happened to the '2011' FIA philosophy to make cars simpler, safer and more affordable? e.g 2011 Fiesta etc
Will separate manufacturers of power units be required, if the wrc goes Hybrid? e.g MSport running the Mercedes Formula 1 power unit, Citroen running the renault unit etc?

[Mirek]

The philosophy was changed with the coming of new promoter RedBull and I believe VW was also pushing for the new rules.

[nafpaktos]

Just to put the car link in the Mads' message thread
https://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/ford-fiesta-wrc-2017/

What happened to the '2011' FIA philosophy to make cars simpler, safer and more affordable? e.g 2011 Fiesta etc
Will separate manufacturers of power units be required, if the wrc goes Hybrid? e.g MSport running the Mercedes Formula 1 power unit, Citroen running the renault unit etc?

Where this car will be eligible to race apart from the wrc?

[Tarmop]

There`s one going to start in Czech rallysprint, so probably there are national events, where this car is allowed.

[Mirek]

There`s one going to start in Czech rallysprint, so probably there are national events, where this car is allowed.

It's not a championship event but only a show event. Normally it's not allowed here.

[Andre Oliveira]

Mads participated in Norway with their car. Neuville in Autoglym.

[AnttiL]

There just aren't any national championships where that car can score points.

[pantealex]

There just aren't any national championships where that car can score points.

but you can start with WRC17 in almost everywhere.

[Mirek]

No, You can't. Even in show events or anything local there has a to be some class established for such car and mostly there is none.

[Oliverk]

Yes there is

[Tarmop]

Estonia for instance would`ve had no restrictions this year, don`t know about 2018. But i suggest moving/continuing this discussion into/in a more appropriate thread.

[SubaruNorway]

Mads participated in Norway with their car. Neuville in Autoglym.

But it wasn't an easy entry due to the Norwegian Federation turning down the first application.
FIA and the rally was cool with it but for some reason they are always so difficult with these things here, Mads even spent his whole vacation trying to get a start in Rally Hedemarken sortet.
Shows you how eager Mads is to give something back to the fans, unlike one guy who didn't start an event here since 99'...

[pantealex]

No, You can't. Even in show events or anything local there has a to be some class established for such car and mostly there is none.

OK, I wrote almost, you wrote mostly not.

In Finland, Sweden, Norway, Estonia, Middle-East, USA, Russia and Asia you can.

But yes in "important rally-countries" (Middle Europe) you can´t.

Only reason to buy "WRC17" is WRC events not any village event everywhere.

[Mk2 RS2000]

https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/motorsport/ostberg-star-turn-otago-classic-rally

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mads is also back in WRC for Rally Sweden in the 3rd Citroen C3. Interesting to see how he gets on with it...

[A FONDO]

Mads is also back in WRC for Rally Sweden in the 3rd Citroen C3. Interesting to see how he gets on with it...

Complaining every time someone points a microphone towards him, about little testing, some unfamiliar stage which he has driven only 5 times the last 7 years etc etc.

[RS]

Complaining every time someone points a microphone towards him, about little testing, some unfamiliar stage which he has driven only 5 times the last 7 years etc etc.

Getting used to new co-driver..

[ESTR]

Complaining every time someone points a microphone towards him, about little testing, some unfamiliar stage which he has driven only 5 times the last 7 years etc etc.

I don't see any other more positive and happy to drive and really enjoying rallying at all than Mads. Sure he complain a little there and a little there but who doesn't. Every interview from everone contains almost all about negative things. Except Breen, he enjoy being in a world rally car even if it's crap, but he appreciate it every second that he can be there. He is a great driver, just don't get the chance to shine.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Complaining every time someone points a microphone towards him, about little testing, some unfamiliar stage which he has driven only 5 times the last 7 years etc etc.

If Østberg complains about the C3 it wont be any surprise or any more than Meeke does. Even Loeb said it was difficult to drive other than on dry tarmac...

It s a shame that Mads fell out with M-Sport and/or lacked the money to be out in the Fiesta again. He could've done something in Sweden.

[EstWRC]

every year the talk he will do something in sweden but he doesnt....

[RS]

I don't see any other more positive and happy to drive and really enjoying rallying at all than Mads. Sure he complain a little there and a little there but who doesn't. Every interview from everone contains almost all about negative things. Except Breen, he enjoy being in a world rally car even if it's crap, but he appreciate it every second that he can be there. He is a great driver, just don't get the chance to shine.

With Mads it always seems like an excuse, but I have to agree with one thing - he usually does it with a smile on his face still.

[AnttiL]

https://parcferme.no/rally/mads-svaert-optimist-nar-gar-pa-fabrikkforer-igjen/

Mads interview in Norwegian, translates nicely to English with google translate. Nothing new really though.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

He has pace and is spectacular to watch. Just enjoy that and dont bother with his comments if you are just going to criticise.

[PLuto]

Mads Ostberg on official video before Rally Sweden - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3BvDrIq_ok

[M5]

What is the plan for Ostberg in 2021?

[Rallyper]

Think it´s coming soon, according to message on FB or Tw.

[Tom206wrc]

But he will have to wait long now for the 3rd round of WRC(Sweden being cancelled)in case he gets a contract for WRC2 :mark:

[pantealex]

But he will have to wait long now for the 3rd round of WRC(Sweden being cancelled)in case he gets a contract for WRC2 :mark:

WRC2 drivers can score from max 6 or 7 events.

He can easily start from 2nd ;) Rally

[Tom206wrc]

Why isn't Mads Facebook page not available anymore :confused:

[TypeR]

Why isn't Mads Facebook page not available anymore :confused:
All good and working well..?

https://www.facebook.com/MadsOstbergRally

[Sulland]

Will we see Mads behind a wheel or behind a microphone in Arctic Finland?

[pantealex]

Will we see Mads behind a wheel or behind a microphone in Arctic Finland?

Must be behind wheel...
...next round is Croatia, that tarmac rally could be behind microphone.

[AnttiL]

And there is three more full tarmac rallies ahead. Mads needs to start his season now

[Sulland]

According to Mads it all depends on PSA and getting the contract with PH Sport through all stages.
Formalities but still important.

[abcrally]

According to Mads it all depends on PSA and getting the contract with PH Sport through all stages.
Formalities but still important.

Driver who was quite successful in WRC didn't eventually get any deal in WRC.

Now the same driver is successful in WRC2 but has difficulties to get deal to continue in WRC2.

Miss you Mads on stages. A lot.

Can manage without you & microphone.

[dupanton]

Don't forget Citroën is a French team and they have several young french talents (Camilli, Ciamin) in their Rally2 team. That might be the reason he could be left without a seat...

[Rallyper]

Camilli past the "talent" mode long time ago ;)

[Franky]

Camilli past the "talent" mode long time ago ;)

But he is French. French tops Norwiegan :D

[Rallyper]

But he is French. French tops Norwiegan :D

Countryman yes, but not talent anymore in the way we use the word... ;)

[rallyfiend]

Don't forget Citroën is a French team and they have several young french talents (Camilli, Ciamin) in their Rally2 team. That might be the reason he could be left without a seat...

Not to mention that it seems that official Citroen seems to have dumped PH Sport....

Was PH sport in Monte at all?!

[dimviii]

Not to mention that it seems that official Citroen seems to have dumped PH Sport....

Was PH sport in Monte at all?!

too many cars at Dakar.

[masa90]

Don't forget Citroën is a French team and they have several young french talents (Camilli, Ciamin) in their Rally2 team. That might be the reason he could be left without a seat...

Best thing is that Camilli is few months older than Ostberg.

But, hard to see either evolving into any wdc challenger. Ostberg could be used in Sordo like role in my opinion though, shame that there are so few seats in the sport.

[dupanton]

Owkay, the term young wasn't correct :p But my point still stands.

[Co-driven]

Not to mention that it seems that official Citroen seems to have dumped PH Sport....

Was PH sport in Monte at all?!

But they were in Arctic with Bottas.

[skarderud]

But they were in Arctic with Bottas.Different customer.


Citröen is a state company, everything has to be out at the market, even running theire rallycars.
Due to covid and usual french beurocracy this isnt done deal yet.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Tom206wrc]

I really hope he will be running WRC Arctic Rally by the end of that month :mark:

[Sulland]

No. The French are still enjoying their paperwar, that still has no Versailles treaty signed btw the french Citroen Motorsport and PH Sport.
The EU Tender rules are a beauty.

Do anyone know the max limit of a contract you can go sole source on?

The good thing is for us the fans, we will see and hear Mr Østberg at All Live!

[Tom K]

Confirmed - Ostberg in Hungarian Championship

https://media.citroenracing.com/en/node/90082782?idtok=bc792bbb8396

[Tom206wrc]

Great news for Hungarians ;)

[Tom206wrc]

So finally Mads Östberg will drive at least 3 WRC2 events(I've read Croatia, Sardenia and Finland) :confused:

[mknight]

Really wonder what his level is on dry tarmac.

[Tom K]

He should do "full" season, but, for example Rally Estonia and Rally Finland both collide with Hungarian rallies so let's wait how they will sort this out.

[skarderud]

He said that a couple of the hungarian rallys is in conflict with other rallies he going to do. Sounded like he has a buissy year ahead. Quite soon Citröen realease some news about WRC2 and ERC.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[MartijnS]

In addition to the eight rounds contested in Hungary, Mads Østberg and Citroën Racing will therefore be competing at seven events on the WRC calendar in a full WRC 2 programme, the precise details of which are yet to be defined.

[Sulland]

Latest update from Mads on Patrik

Update on @patrikbarth ⚠️ Finally Patrik was transported home to Sweden today, one week after our accident in Italy 🇮🇹 The operation to his jaw will take place over the next few days. As long as we don’t get any other information now, his injuries to his ribs, hip and arm will heal by it self over time 💪
For me it’s already moving in the right direction. One week of doing nothing has been hard, but it has helped.
Our recovery continues. I’ll get back to you guys in a few days with regards to the rest of our season!


Thanks for your endless support ❤️


@citroenracing @tagai.racing.technology