Donkey of the Race- Germany

[steveaki13]

Who has been a Donkey over the race/weekend

[N4D13]

I'm tempted to say Massa but I think that the accident in Turn 1 was too close to call. Perhaps Räikkönen for playing bumper cars and failing to score while his teammate ended up in fifth place?

[MacFeegle]

Charlie Whiting. He think pilots run out of track for fun and no gain and then try hurt Marshall by keep race going lap with car stranded blind corner and send them running to recovery.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ferrari and Renault engine departments.

A Merc with a broken wing can still go from 20 to 3rd without breaking a sweat. It's utter humiliation.

honorary mention to Macca for building a car so shit it can't even score properly despite a Merc engine.

[Tazio]

Kimi

[longisland]

No real donkey. Maybe Mercedes for the rear brake of Hamilton, Massa for cutting through the racing line & Sutil for spinning off & stalled the car

[dj_bytedisaster]

No real donkey. Maybe Mercedes for the rear brake of Hamilton, Massa for cutting through the racing line & Sutil for spinning off & stalled the car

LOL, a post in which someone got every single fact wrong - attaboy!

- Hamilton: it was the front brake disk
- Sutil: Spin was caused by car failure
- Massa/K.-Mag: normal first lap incident - hence no penalties

[N4D13]

LOL, a post in which someone got every single fact wrong - attaboy!

- Hamilton: it was the front brake disk
- Sutil: Spin was caused by car failure
- Massa/K.-Mag: normal first lap incident - hence no penalties
https://xkcd.com/386/ ;)

[longisland]

Honorary mention. Kvyat for holos optimistic move. BTW, thanks for the insight. You may collect your prize now

[steveaki13]

Main donkey IMO is the officials.

Quite often I have called for less SC's for incidents where a car is well out of the way or a tiny bit of debris is on a kerb, but today we seemed to go the other extreme.

I mean Kyvat had a fire and we had marshalls out, straight on from a heavy braking zone. Even if drivers slow a brake failure would have put a car into the braking zone where they were and similarly when Sutil's car was stranded in mid track and they ask Marshalls to cross the track and stay there where another car could spin.

After all we have seen a decent amount of cars spin there over the years.

IMO no real driving Donkeys today.

[truefan72]

charlie whiting and the stewards
2 clear safety car situations

sutil's being the more egregious

honorable to massa, just throwing away points for Williams

[Doc Austin]

The race has not shown in the US yet, so I have not seen the Massa video. All I have seen a photo of him closing the door on someone who appeared to be very nearly alongside.

So, actually the donkey is going to be US television because the GP airing will be delayed so they can show the Indycar race live that was left over delayed from yesterday, then F1, then today's scheduled Indycar race.

Wait............ that's actually kind of good.

I am recovering from some surgery and can only lay around, so it is not all bad that I have the Tour de France, the German GP and two Indycar races to watch in a single day. I've got good pain killers too, so I can't wait to see if the Martini cars leave psychedelic trails behind them.

[pino]

Charlie Whiting !

[dj_bytedisaster]

charlie whiting and the stewards
2 clear safety car situations


Not surprising coming from you. Your friend needed SC's so you want them. Sutil's car was far enough off the racing line and after 1:30 everyone was past it and knew where the wreck was. No need for a SC there that would effectively have nullified the whole race.

Edited by Moderator

[pino]

dj, no insults !!!

[dj_bytedisaster]

dj, no insults !!!

Look up the archives pino. Look at the flak I took the last year without complaining. Let me at least bite back once in a while ;)

[truefan72]

dj, no insults !!!

he is on my ignore list anyway lol

[steveaki13]

Not surprising coming from you. Your friend needed SC's so you want them. Sutil's car was far enough off the racing line and after 1:30 everyone was past it and knew where the wreck was. No need for a SC there that would effectively have nullified the whole race.

Edited by Moderator

I don't agree. Remember we actually had Marshalls running across the track!! Regardless of where the car is situated that is not right.

If Marshalls are crossing the racing line that should always be a SC.

As for the first lap incident that was also a SC.

I also believe Kyvat's fire should have been a SC. If it was on the side of the track on the grass fair enough, but his car was directly in a massive braking zone which is at the end of a 190mph straight. Even with drivers slowing down under double yellows a brake failure there could still see a car spin at 140 ish and right into the fire car and marshalls

[truefan72]

and from autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115074

"Hamilton was not the only driver questioning why the safety car had not been brought out.

Fernando Alonso said that although a safety car at that moment would have been bad for his chances, he thought it would have been the best thing to do from a safety perspective.

"We were hoping not because we were in a situation that if the safety car went out there, it was 17 laps to the end and if we put the super-softs on, 17 laps was tough.

"But being objective and honest, probably we were expecting a safety car in a normal situation. Sometimes they put the safety car out for a piece of front wing on the track and now it was a car there and it was not a safety car.

"It was a surprise. But if they didn't put it out it was because they felt it was not a risk and they removed the car in a safe manner - I hope, I didn't see it - and that was it."

[Mia 01]

Lewis for me. Very aggressive driving, knocked Kimi and Button, Its like he expects other drivers to move over for him.

[truefan72]

Lewis for me. Very aggressive driving, knocked Kimi and Button, Its like he expects other drivers to move over for him.

lol
that was so predictable from you
its all good to each his own

I guess no mention of magnussen who flipped a car upside down ( although imo it was more massa's fault) according to your standards
or the vettel, kimi, alonso sandwich which resulted in all 3 cars knocking each other.
or the half dozen other incidents with bumps and knocks. oh well

then again your drivers of the race were bottas and rosberg, in that order
2 guys who started and finished in their same order of 1st and second
smh

[Rollo]

Donkey of the race was the FIA.

Yet again, another race has been ruined because of a jump wheels incident cause by an inherent design fault.
If the money at the end of the year is divvied up on the basis of the number of points scored, then Williams have a case to be made that the regulations have effectively cost them money.
Had this incident occurred in Indy Car with their current setup, then I bet that the net result of this wouldn't have been an upside-down car.

Massa had his race ruined by stupid regulations and the car design which follows from them.

[Eau Rouge]

Charlie whiting. What the !! Putting lives at risk with Sutils car was a disgrace! If something happened consequences would have been high.

[airshifter]

Charlie, the stewards and any other parts of the FIA that support sending stewards across a track without a safety car, putting stewards at the end of a hard braking zone without a safety car, and deciding that on certain tracks going off the racing surface is OK, even though they don't enforce it on other tracks most of the time even after they warn people.

On track there were some questionable moves, but nothing nearly as boneheaded at the safety issues. I thought the worst on track incident was Kvyatt, and that really wasn't all that bad, just overly aggressive.

[zako85]

Obviously Max Chilton. He finished last. Bwahahah. What a loser.

[AndyL]

McLaren strategists. Mercedes made a strategy mistake too, leaving Lewis with not enough tyre at the end to pass Bottas, but that was a reasonable bet on the safety car coming out, which didn't come off. But what on earth where McLaren thinking with Button's strategy? How could they think they were going to make a 2-stopper work when the second stop was earlier than the second stop of most of those on a 3-stop strategy? It looked pretty clear that they should have either stretched the second stint (Hulkenberg, who they were racing on a 2-stopper, went 8 laps further), or if they needed to pit that early, they had to commit to a 3-stop and give Button a chance to chase the Force India down on option tyres in the last dozen laps. I cannot understand how they thought what they were doing was going to work.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't agree. Remember we actually had Marshalls running across the track!! Regardless of where the car is situated that is not right.

If Marshalls are crossing the racing line that should always be a SC.

As for the first lap incident that was also a SC.

I also believe Kyvat's fire should have been a SC. If it was on the side of the track on the grass fair enough, but his car was directly in a massive braking zone which is at the end of a 190mph straight. Even with drivers slowing down under double yellows a brake failure there could still see a car spin at 140 ish and right into the fire car and marshalls


The race was under double yellow flags. Have you ever been to a track day? Double waved yellow flags mean 'stationary car, prepare to stop if necessary'. The marshals crossed the track after clearance from someone, who could see that no car was coming. When the next car passed (a Merc) they were already at the scene of the incident. No Marshal was in the least bit of danger.

[steveaki13]

The race was under double yellow flags. Have you ever been to a track day? Double waved yellow flags mean 'stationary car, prepare to stop if necessary'. The marshals crossed the track after clearance from someone, who could see that no car was coming. When the next car passed (a Merc) they were already at the scene of the incident. No Marshal was in the least bit of danger.

Your wrong IMO. I can decide what I think is right and others seem to agree with me and Yes I have been to several GP weekends, testdays and many more racing events and different categories.
So your attempt to call me ignorant or ill informed or just stupid is pointless matey. :D

I have only seen a similar thing happen a couple of times live but only at a lower level of motorsport.

I believe a SC should have deployed for both incidents.

You are focusing on Sutil's car. What about incident two..... When the marshalls were attending Kyvat's car while in the firing line of the braking zone of that straight.

I guess you'll assume because double waved yellows were out that no car is able to have a brake failure into that zone. Unlikely yes, but despite slowing for the corner it was clear the cars were still coming along at over 100mph.

Anyway, I don't rate your opinion over others like Alonso for sure, coupled with several others who have commented here I think we are correct.

So tough cheese. ;)

[MacFeegle]

Mr DJ, you 100% wrong.

You play track day and think you hero? You no no racing

Mr Steve correct. 100th lift for yellow, 10th for twin yellow but any more an you eat for food. You no do.

You at speed to take corner on line an not push. It have no left right room but minimal. Carbon like knife an if hit tire you passenger and if Matshall in way you hit.

Marshall on track no happen in cart to F1 like Hock and Charlie need shoe up rear. I know man and he lose principle in 5 year since.

Once great man but now F1 lose way and soon another die. I sorry but will happen :(

[rjbetty]

I know that a safety car would have helped Hamilton, but even if it was Rosberg in his situation, I think I would still say the same thing; it should have been deployed.

A marshal was killed as recently as last year.

And at the last race, it was red flagged for an hour over an obscure bit of fence. If there was any consistency, the German GP would have been red-flagged, let alone a safety car.


I'm sorry dj, but I feel you are maybe only having your opinion because it suited you, i.e. Lewis didn't benefit, which is why I think you will defend it to the death.

btw I can't ever remember Hamilton benefitting from a safety car recently. Whenever it's him who comes up through the field, there never seems to be one.


EDIT: I have to give this to Charlie etc as well. Only fair I think.
Honourable mention to Massa for blaming and moaning again. He's had pretty good pace this year but is rubbish at converting into any useful results...

[Starter]

Your wrong IMO. I can decide what I think is right and others seem to agree with me and Yes I have been to several GP weekends, testdays and many more racing events and different categories.
So your attempt to call me ignorant or ill informed or just stupid is pointless matey. :D

I have only seen a similar thing happen a couple of times live but only at a lower level of motorsport.

I believe a SC should have deployed for both incidents.

You are focusing on Sutil's car. What about incident two..... When the marshalls were attending Kyvat's car while in the firing line of the braking zone of that straight.

I guess you'll assume because double waved yellows were out that no car is able to have a brake failure into that zone. Unlikely yes, but despite slowing for the corner it was clear the cars were still coming along at over 100mph.
I'm going to have to disagree with you and the others who have expressed similar comments. I'll start by asking if you have ever worked as a marshall anywhere? I have. For many years. F1, Indycar/CART and just about everything else down to club racing. (That's not to brag, just to establish bonafides for my comments.)

The folks out there have much experience and, yes, of course its dangerous. They know that better than you do. They don't go out on the track on a whim. All of the marshall stations are in communication with race control and they would have known when there was a gap coming large enough to safely cross - which they did. It is also always a somewhat larger risk when you go into a runoff to assist a car, they know that too. It's part of what they do to help assure as safe a race as possible.

Would you prefer that a safety car always come out any time there is a stopped car that's not behind a barrier? (NASCAR comes to F1. :( ) Better yet, have remote controlled drones to go out and hook up the cars to drag them away, all under the yellow so drivers don't run into the drones. Still better, have the drivers in a room in little cockpit remote control modules so they are never at risk either. That'll ensure vast audiences for F1 going forward.

Racing is dangerous and that is part of it's attraction. It's dangerous for all concerned. The risk to pit crews during stops is vastly greater than any faced by the marshalls and of course the drivers are at the top of the list. Racing is much safer now than at any time in its history. But "safer" does NOT equal "no danger". The marshalls know that and accept the risk. Next time you are at the track, have a chat with one of the marshalls during a break and find out about that other aspect of the sport. You might get your eyes opened.

[airshifter]

I'm going to have to disagree with you and the others who have expressed similar comments. I'll start by asking if you have ever worked as a marshall anywhere? I have. For many years. F1, Indycar/CART and just about everything else down to club racing. (That's not to brag, just to establish bonafides for my comments.)

The folks out there have much experience and, yes, of course its dangerous. They know that better than you do. They don't go out on the track on a whim. All of the marshall stations are in communication with race control and they would have known when there was a gap coming large enough to safely cross - which they did. It is also always a somewhat larger risk when you go into a runoff to assist a car, they know that too. It's part of what they do to help assure as safe a race as possible.

Would you prefer that a safety car always come out any time there is a stopped car that's not behind a barrier? (NASCAR comes to F1. :( ) Better yet, have remote controlled drones to go out and hook up the cars to drag them away, all under the yellow so drivers don't run into the drones. Still better, have the drivers in a room in little cockpit remote control modules so they are never at risk either. That'll ensure vast audiences for F1 going forward.

Racing is dangerous and that is part of it's attraction. It's dangerous for all concerned. The risk to pit crews during stops is vastly greater than any faced by the marshalls and of course the drivers are at the top of the list. Racing is much safer now than at any time in its history. But "safer" does NOT equal "no danger". The marshalls know that and accept the risk. Next time you are at the track, have a chat with one of the marshalls during a break and find out about that other aspect of the sport. You might get your eyes opened.

Though I appreciate your contributions and experience in hands on assistance at the track, there was absolutely no excuse for what took place Sunday.

At the time the marshals crossed the track from the right, there was only a single yellow being waved and cars were approaching. For that matter, they were close enough that of the four marshals that began to cross, one of them stopped before the edge of the track and did not cross. With only three people and none with a flag on the track surface, one of them was trying to point cars away and assist in pushing the car. A car passed withing 4-6 seconds of them crossing the track, and only then did the double yellow flags start waving. At the time Sutil got out of the car, it was still single yellow, even though he was well in the middle of the track.

Marshals from the pit wall side of the track were already approaching, and were at the car within 10-12 seconds of the time the guys ran across the track, and that was only due to the fact they were being more cautious as the double yellows had not yet flown.

If they were communicating with race control, then race control screwed it up and allowed an unsafe condition with the single yellow flags, made the situation worse by allowing the marshals to cross under single yellow, and in fact didn't control the situation in the interest of safety. If the decision had been made to not bring out a safety car then the extra 15 seconds for the track workers to arrive from the safe side of the track was 15 seconds of time well spent.

[Mia 01]

I can understand Charlie W. A German driver leading the race with ca 40 seconds over his rivals and the stewards willing to take a small risk for that particular driver, no sweat. On the other side, I can understand Lewis and his fans to, but there you are. For sure if it was Lewis in the lead ........ !

[steveaki13]

It doesn't matter who was in the lead Mia. Kimi, Fernando or jules Bianchi, I just dont think it was safe enough.

Starter was a Marshall and says it was, so maybe I am wrong. I bow to his understanding of marshalling, but I still believe the two incidents I have mentioned warranted a SC.

However as it turned out it was all OK so I guess its decision justified. Maybe this means we will have less SC from now on, which ultimately would be a good thing.

[steveaki13]

I'm going to have to disagree with you and the others who have expressed similar comments. I'll start by asking if you have ever worked as a marshall anywhere? I have. For many years. F1, Indycar/CART and just about everything else down to club racing. (That's not to brag, just to establish bonafides for my comments.)

The folks out there have much experience and, yes, of course its dangerous. They know that better than you do. They don't go out on the track on a whim. All of the marshall stations are in communication with race control and they would have known when there was a gap coming large enough to safely cross - which they did. It is also always a somewhat larger risk when you go into a runoff to assist a car, they know that too. It's part of what they do to help assure as safe a race as possible.

Would you prefer that a safety car always come out any time there is a stopped car that's not behind a barrier? (NASCAR comes to F1. :( ) Better yet, have remote controlled drones to go out and hook up the cars to drag them away, all under the yellow so drivers don't run into the drones. Still better, have the drivers in a room in little cockpit remote control modules so they are never at risk either. That'll ensure vast audiences for F1 going forward.

Racing is dangerous and that is part of it's attraction. It's dangerous for all concerned. The risk to pit crews during stops is vastly greater than any faced by the marshalls and of course the drivers are at the top of the list. Racing is much safer now than at any time in its history. But "safer" does NOT equal "no danger". The marshalls know that and accept the risk. Next time you are at the track, have a chat with one of the marshalls during a break and find out about that other aspect of the sport. You might get your eyes opened.

They must have plenty of experience, but look at the marshalls at Canada back a few years, they looked like amateurs.

[Mia 01]

It doesn't matter who was in the lead Mia. Kimi, Fernando or jules Bianchi, I just dont think it was safe enough.

Starter was a Marshall and says it was, so maybe I am wrong. I bow to his understanding of marshalling, but I still believe the two incidents I have mentioned warranted a SC.

However as it turned out it was all OK so I guess its decision justified. Maybe this means we will have less SC from now on, which ultimately would be a good thing.

You must understand that there was a bigger picture behind the decision. I belive this.

[Bagwan]

It looked like a pretty scary situation .

But , we need to remember here , that a serious priority for F1 cars is the communications network , so that the driver is well informed .
There are yellow flags at the incident , and a yellow light on the wheel .
And , no doubt there were messages to each individual about exactly where the issue was on the track as well , likely with specifics about what they'd be facing when they got there .

It's not just the pit boards that give them information these days .
They are well informed .


Coordination of the stewards is something that always has baffled me as to how they manage it , as there is so much that needs immediate , sometimes life and death decisions .

It's only logical that those trackside workers were on the outside of the corner , given the likelihood that momentum would have most incidents throw the car outward , towards them .
They had no sight of what was coming , so , to have waited as long as they did , it is obvious that they were under the direct control of the central command post .



Nobody was hurt , and it really wasn't even close .

So , calm down , and listen to Starter .

[Starter]

At the time the marshals crossed the track from the right, there was only a single yellow being waved and cars were approaching. For that matter, they were close enough that of the four marshals that began to cross, one of them stopped before the edge of the track and did not cross. With only three people and none with a flag on the track surface, one of them was trying to point cars away and assist in pushing the car. A car passed withing 4-6 seconds of them crossing the track, and only then did the double yellow flags start waving. At the time Sutil got out of the car, it was still single yellow, even though he was well in the middle of the track.
The various iterations of the yellow flag don't have as much to do with what is happening as it does to where it is happening (on track, off track, etc.). A yellow flag never protected anyone. The information gained from the yellow flag and acted upon by the driver does offer some protection for the various track workers.


They must have plenty of experience, but look at the marshalls at Canada back a few years, they looked like amateurs.
That was a different thing and I won't clutter up this thread, so PM me if you'd like a more full discussion of that incident.

[Rollo]

Honourable mention to Massa for blaming and moaning again. He's had pretty good pace this year but is rubbish at converting into any useful results...

In this case, it's pretty hard to convert a result if you happen to be upside-down

[airshifter]

The various iterations of the yellow flag don't have as much to do with what is happening as it does to where it is happening (on track, off track, etc.). A yellow flag never protected anyone. The information gained from the yellow flag and acted upon by the driver does offer some protection for the various track workers.


Understood, and quite accurate. Without driver response the flags do nothing. But we know in F1 the drivers are going to lift as little as they have to, as they are still racing on the rest of the track.

What I think was the unsafe part was both the crossing and the point at which they crossed. They were crossing slightly after the corner, where they would not come into sight of the drivers until the driver was close to or at the corner apex. With drivers already potentially having to change their line due to the yellow, the marshals had to cross where they ended up in the line the drivers now had to take to stay clear of the car, and in this case they had to cross the conventional racing line.

Had they crossed before the corner with double yellows waving.... well I still wouldn't have liked it but it would have been much less risky.


I don't like safety cars at all, but I prefer them to putting any track workers at risk.

[steveaki13]

It looked like a pretty scary situation .

But , we need to remember here , that a serious priority for F1 cars is the communications network , so that the driver is well informed .
There are yellow flags at the incident , and a yellow light on the wheel .
And , no doubt there were messages to each individual about exactly where the issue was on the track as well , likely with specifics about what they'd be facing when they got there .

It's not just the pit boards that give them information these days .
They are well informed .


Coordination of the stewards is something that always has baffled me as to how they manage it , as there is so much that needs immediate , sometimes life and death decisions .

It's only logical that those trackside workers were on the outside of the corner , given the likelihood that momentum would have most incidents throw the car outward , towards them .
They had no sight of what was coming , so , to have waited as long as they did , it is obvious that they were under the direct control of the central command post .



Nobody was hurt , and it really wasn't even close .

So , calm down , and listen to Starter .

Hey it doesn't matter that much cause no one was hurt but I still believe a SC would have been better.

[steveaki13]

Understood, and quite accurate. Without driver response the flags do nothing. But we know in F1 the drivers are going to lift as little as they have to, as they are still racing on the rest of the track.


This is my worry. The drivers have info and communication but instead of 140mph they go 130mph and a car failure can be serious at that speed.

Remember Hakkinen used to aknowledge double yellows by a wave, in reality he didnt slow at all, so to just assume every driver is ready to stop in a instant I believe is misguided. Most drivers do not bother responding much.

[Starter]

This is my worry. The drivers have info and communication but instead of 140mph they go 130mph and a car failure can be serious at that speed.

Remember Hakkinen used to aknowledge double yellows by a wave, in reality he didnt slow at all, so to just assume every driver is ready to stop in a instant I believe is misguided. Most drivers do not bother responding much.

A couple of things to note. In F1 the drivers are not only monitored by their pit but also by race control. A failure to slow for an indicated situation can and does result in penalties.

It also helps to understand what the purpose of the yellow flags are. They have nothing really to do with what is happening. Drivers really don't care what has happened to another car, whether its a crash or spin or whatever. They do care where it is. They want to know if they can safely pass it so long as they stay on the track surface or will they need to take evasive action or perhaps even leave the track surface themselves to avoid. So think of various yellow flags not as seriousness flags but rather as location flags, then you'll have a better picture.

And yes, overdriving any yellow flag is a serious offense which should be dealt with promptly by the stewards.

[Bagwan]

I would guess the "what" is only really relevant if it had resulted in oil on the track or possible debris , but they don't get that info from the flags or yellow lights .
They'd get that from the radio , or , failing that , the pitboard .

That said , how safe are they all if one had lost the radio ?
Does Charlie know if one of the drivers has lost contact , and would that be relevant in the decision making process ?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Hey it doesn't matter that much cause no one was hurt but I still believe a SC would have been better.

The thing that most people forget - there were DOUBLE waved yellow flags, which according to the rule books warns of stationary objects. That means everybody was aware of it and Sutils car was far enough of the line. It was a better solution than nullifying the first 50 laps. Safetycars should be reserved to situations where there is debris all over the track, a medical car deployed and/or Marshals having to work on the actual racing line.

[MacFeegle]

Why no stationary yellow at Silverstone then?

[Warriwa]

Flags do not stop a brake failure at the end of a straight.

[airshifter]

The thing that most people forget - there were DOUBLE waved yellow flags, which according to the rule books warns of stationary objects. That means everybody was aware of it and Sutils car was far enough of the line. It was a better solution than nullifying the first 50 laps. Safetycars should be reserved to situations where there is debris all over the track, a medical car deployed and/or Marshals having to work on the actual racing line.

There were no double yellows until after the marshals crossed the track. It's quite clear in the US feed and I watched it on DVR several times after the incident. You can clearly see single yellows waving until after the marshals crossed.

[steveaki13]

Flags do not stop a brake failure at the end of a straight.

This.....................

[steveaki13]

There were no double yellows until after the marshals crossed the track. It's quite clear in the US feed and I watched it on DVR several times after the incident. You can clearly see single yellows waving until after the marshals crossed.

even then though, how many of those cars looked ready to stop immediately? Not many to me.

[henners88]

Magnussen and Massa were my donkeys for failing to read the situation at turn one. That corner always attracts contact and both really should have given room for each other IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[Doc Austin]

I see Magnussen as completely blameless. He was well past halfway alongside Massa and Massa whipped straight across three lanes and drove right into the side of him at the apex of the corner. There was absolutely nowhere for Kevin to go. His inside wheels were on the curb and he had won the corner.

The smartest guy was Botas who backed the hell out and let the accident happen without him. Instead of having his teammate take out all three of them, he backed out and took his third consecutive podium. I think Frank flushes Massa at the end of the year and brings on Maxstapen or someone of similar potential. Massa might be quick for a lap every so often , but let's face it, Botas is William's future and soon Filipe won't even be able to support him.....not if he keeps doing stupid things like this..

The worst part I see is Massa had to run his mouth about Kevin's inexperience when as the most experienced man in the paddock Massa made the dumbest mistake of the weekend and would not own up to it. You simply cannot put your car in a spot that another car already occupies and that is exactly what Filipe did.

[Whyzars]

You simply cannot put your car in a spot that another car already occupies and that is exactly what Filipe did.

Massa did not knowingly put his car at risk but Magnussen did.

Massa was in front. Its the responsibility of the driver coming from behind to not put himself in a position where the car is at risk.

We can academically pull this every which way but the bottom line is that if you are trying to stuff your car up the inside of someone, you can see them, they may not see you.

I would hold the attacking driver responsible in most situations like this.

[journeyman racer]

Massa did not knowingly put his car at risk but Magnussen did.

Massa was in front. Its the responsibility of the driver coming from behind to not put himself in a position where the car is at risk.

We can academically pull this every which way but the bottom line is that if you are trying to stuff your car up the inside of someone, you can see them, they may not see you.

I would hold the attacking driver responsible in most situations like this.
Yep. I'll pay that. If governing bodies (FIA and domestic) held the attacking driver accountable, like you say. Over a period of time, the drivers will adjust, and a higher level of driving will result.

[Doc Austin]

Massa did not knowingly put his car at risk but Magnussen did.

Uhhh, no. Kevin drove for the apex and did not run anyone over to get there. His car was far enough alongside Massa that he had to see him. Massa just swooped from one side of the track to the other and simply did not care who was in the way.


Massa was in front. Its the responsibility of the driver coming from behind to not put himself in a position where the car is at risk.

Massa would have taken out Botas too if the Finn had not backed out. Massa just went stupid blind and yanked the car to the apex to block as many cars as he could.


We can academically pull this every which way but the bottom line is that if you are trying to stuff your car up the inside of someone, you can see them, they may not see you.

Levin did not stuff anything, He was already there. It was Massa who tried to drive through a car that was sitting on the piece of road he wanted.


I would hold the attacking driver responsible in most situations like this.

I generally do not make assessments on stuff like this, but Massa felt it necessary to go on the attack and run up and down the pitlane blaming Kevin. I hate crybabies.

I have not read where Massa went to Magnussen to share his vast wealth of knowledge in an effort to help the kid.Think about how many dead guys we would have if Jackie Stewart had not set some of those kids down and taught them how to survive. Today's drivers are selfish pukes. Do you see one solitary veteran on the grid mentoring his replacement, or even trying to help a jr teammate?

All I saw Massa do was whine like a little girl to the media. If he had been half a man and tried to make it cool with Kevin, I might still respect him.

[Whyzars]

Uhhh, no. Kevin drove for the apex and did not run anyone over to get there. His car was far enough alongside Massa that he had to see him....


Maybe not.



Massa would have taken out Botas too if the Finn had not backed out. Massa just went stupid blind and yanked the car to the apex to block as many cars as he could.

Bottas made it to the second corner and beyond and Magnussen didn't. Which driver made the right call?




Levin did not stuff anything, He was already there. It was Massa who tried to drive through a car that was sitting on the piece of road he wanted.


It was Massa's corner that Magnussen was trying to take.



I generally do not make assessments on stuff like this, but Massa felt it necessary to go on the attack and run up and down the pitlane blaming Kevin. I hate crybabies.

I have not read where Massa went to Magnussen to share his vast wealth of knowledge in an effort to help the kid.Think about how many dead guys we would have if Jackie Stewart had not set some of those kids down and taught them how to survive. Today's drivers are selfish pukes. Do you see one solitary veteran on the grid mentoring his replacement, or even trying to help a jr teammate?

All I saw Massa do was whine like a little girl to the media. If he had been half a man and tried to make it cool with Kevin, I might still respect him.

Are you are saying that Magnussen made a rookie mistake and Massa should have educated him rather than tell everyone he made a rookie mistake? These blokes are competing across the board for F1 seats aren't they?

If anyone needs mentoring from an opponent then they should not be in F1. Certainly their team would be concerned for their million dollar vehicle and the other drivers for their safety.

I don't think Sir Jackie gave too much away before he felt secure in his future driving prospects. Todays drivers probably don't have that level of job security yet.