Subaru's problems...Prodrive F1 related?

[smolvar]

One of my conspiracy theories is that David Richards is sucking the best engineers, money and general resources from the Subaru WRC team and applying it to preparation for his new Formula 1 team.

Anyone agree with me, or have any comments to backup/refute this theory?

[L5->R5/CR]

One of my conspiracy theories is that David Richards is sucking the best engineers, money and general resources from the Subaru WRC team and applying it to preparation for his new Formula 1 team.

Anyone agree with me, or have any comments to backup/refute this theory?



Possibly.

But then again, DR said that this year he'd be back to being very involved in SWRT to help make sure things get back on track.


I think it is more like DR is going a million directions at once and is taking Prodrive with him (Prodrive isn't a small company but, running SWRT, this F1 attempt, Aston Martin GT cars, and building and designing prototype road cars; it is a little much for one company to do it all to the highest level, let alone at the expansion rate Prodrive is having to move at. And now DR is heading up Aston Martin proper, oh, and lest not we forget ISC).

Prodrive for better or worse has been built, in part, based on the ability of DR to get the most from his people and keep things focused. SWRT is strongest when he is more involved. BAR-Honda was strongest when DR was heading up Prodrive's involvement. DR has not built a company that can deliver on its "reputation" without the cult of personality type leadership he provides and he has spread himself too thin to have that kinf of structure and formula for success. IMO, this is simply a case of a specialized company trying to do too much.

I could go on but this is enough for now, let's see what others have to say

[janneppi]

One of my conspiracy theories is that David Richards is sucking the best engineers, money and general resources from the Subaru WRC team and applying it to preparation for his new Formula 1 team.

Anyone agree with me, or have any comments to backup/refute this theory?

That would actually only benefit the team if you go by the current mantra here that engineers can't build a car if their lives dependent on it. All you need is a short car with high cog and no laptops near it, that'll win you rallies. ;)

[Gard]

It's the opposite. They tried to used engineers with F1 ambitions for WRC. Bad idea...

[milly]

WRC problems were happening long before F1 came on the horizon - at least two or three years now.

It's amazing that a company based on motorsport engineering, isn't going to design or engineer its own F1 car, but is hiring from McLaren or BMW....

[cosmicpanda]

Don't forget that Subaru is paying millions for them to run the WRC programme. If they don't go a good enough job, Subaru is perfectly able to give the job to another company.

The only current problems with the car that I've seen this year are reliability. And that's not just restricted to Prodrive - remember Peugeot in 2005? Shocking reliability then.

[AndyRAC]

Remember 1998 when DR took over at Benetton, Subaru were leading both championships after Acropolis, never won again, lost both championships, maybe unconnected? DR was at the Bahrain GP yesterday, maybe his focus is on it rather than WRC, couldn't really blame him as the WRC is going off the radar.

[JAM]

I think that Prodrive grew with DR being completed focused on it. When he started to have more interests and companys and was not completed focused on SWRT, the team came down. That's what is happening now.

[L5->R5/CR]

I think that Prodrive grew with DR being completed focused on it. When he started to have more interests and companys and was not completed focused on SWRT, the team came down. That's what is happening now.




Glad someone else agrees with me...

[A.F.F.]

Isn't that obvious? Or at least as far as I can remember.

What is a bit weird is that he used to be a co-driver himself. One could imagine he has his heart to WRC but no, most of all he is a businessman.

[JAM]

One could imagine he has his heart to WRC but no, most of all he is a businessman.

More than everything DR is a business man. It was obvious when he started the ISC... the passion is nothing when you don't have a huge sum of money behind it.

[Caroline]

There's no room for sentiment in business (so I've been told). DR is incredibly driven but who knows if too much is going on with Prodrive?

[Tomi]

david richards would want to have the biker boy in a rally car, is it because that the guy can drive a rally car, or is it because it would be good for his broacasting company? If you know the answer to that one, you know where his heart is when it comes to rally.

[A.F.F.]

I can't help but get the feeling David Richards wants to be Bernie Ecclestone but he can't. He is just not small enough.

[koko0703]

Is it time for Subaru to damp Prodrive and operate as its own team??? Citroen does that already, and I assume Suzuki will operate as its own team, too. If Prodrive continues to perform like this with their focus on Formula 1, Subaru should part with Prodrive.

[L5->R5/CR]

Is it time for Subaru to damp Prodrive and operate as its own team??? Citroen does that already, and I assume Suzuki will operate as its own team, too. If Prodrive continues to perform like this with their focus on Formula 1, Subaru should part with Prodrive.

I believe that Subaru just re-newed Prodrives services for multiple years.

[jparker]

In the wonderful world of IT, DR stands for "Disaster Recovery", so you never know.......

[JAM]

Is it time for Subaru to damp Prodrive and operate as its own team??? Citroen does that already, and I assume Suzuki will operate as its own team, too. If Prodrive continues to perform like this with their focus on Formula 1, Subaru should part with Prodrive.

To run is own team is a good solution IMO. Is less expensive and less complicated if the right person would be choosen to manage the team.

The situation is obvious, lets see: A team needs 25 milions to run a season. If a manufacturer creates is onw team, they spend 25 millions, if they contratct outsorcing then they will spend 30-35 millions. The company contracted is doing a business, then they need to have profit and the profit is the over pay that the manufacturer (or sponsors) have to assure.

Usuallly people refers Citroen as having a milionare budget (i dont't know their budget neither thos others budget), but all the budget is spent on the team and resources. If Citroen would invest this money on outsorcing, not all the money would go to the resources, and the resources would be less thanthey are.

Another thing important is the connection with the manufacturer, if they have their own team, they have better connection with the resources of the manufacturer, wich don't happen if the structure would be outside the manufacturer.

One things is obvious, the manufacturers have a lot of time a strange way of thinking, and that reflects on the decisions and results...

[Kaps]

Bigger companies have shown in the past that it's impossible to run both WRC and F1 at the same time.

There's no doubt at all that Prodrive will fail, if they'd be foolish enough to even try and pull that off.

[DonJippo]

Anyone thought about the possibility that Subaru Impreza as basis just is not good enough for today's WRC?

[Buzz Lightyear]

Couple of points...

1) the flat four engine was said to have inherit limitations, but is fundemential to Subaru, so must be retained at all costs. maybe these limitation have been reached? Someone with a more indepth knowlegde of this may able to expand on this.

2) Maybe Petter's setup, or ability as a test and development driver is maybe driving the development of the car down the wrong avenue. It is only a co-incidence that the down turn has taken place since PS was nominated no1 driver, and therefore testing etc...? Nothing wrong with PS, but maybe his style of driving does not suit the fundementals of the impreza.

3) Some control of the WRC design was taken to STI. Japan may be good at high performance road vechiles, but maybe, as in the case of Toyota and Honda in F1, its experience, and personel thats counts. The car seems to have been too fragile in recent years, maybe too much of a race car, than a rally car.

[L5->R5/CR]

Couple of points...

1) the flat four engine was said to have inherit limitations, but is fundemential to Subaru, so must be retained at all costs. maybe these limitation have been reached? Someone with a more indepth knowlegde of this may able to expand on this.

2) Maybe Petter's setup, or ability as a test and development driver is maybe driving the development of the car down the wrong avenue. It is only a co-incidence that the down turn has taken place since PS was nominated no1 driver, and therefore testing etc...? Nothing wrong with PS, but maybe his style of driving does not suit the fundementals of the impreza.


3) Some control of the WRC design was taken to STI. Japan may be good at high performance road vechiles, but maybe, as in the case of Toyota and Honda in F1, its experience, and personel thats counts. The car seems to have been too fragile in recent years, maybe too much of a race car, than a rally car.



Don't forget that in part, it is Prodrive that is designing the final car (my understanding of STI's involvement is that they approve most of the Prodrive designs and their role essentially is to insure that key styling components are kept (hood scoop for instance) in terms of the WRC cars).

Part of the problems with the Subaru, IMO, is Prodrive's pursuit of its own interests. Prodrive is a company that prides itself on its advanced engineering prowess. Many times we have heard things from the team about pushing the technology in WRC cars and trying to inovate and put in new technologies all the time. In short, it is in Prodrive's best interests to produce a car with high levels of difficult and complicated engineering.

As far as Subaru running its own team, I think they would still be in a similiar position. For better or worse, the championship is still very Euro centric. To be successful in the WRC I don't think it is reasonable, if even possible, to argue that a team not based in Europe can be successful. The time and resources that would be consumed to be based elsewhere are too great.

Subaru would therefore be in a similiar position, they would have to spend millions to set up the facilities necessary to run a team in Europe, then spend more money to attract the talent necessary for the team to function. Then they would have to spend possibly years adopting to the learning curve and developing a car and technical staff that can produce results.

This is all in addition to the fact that Prodrive is very integrated into Subaru's rallying endeavours and in part some of their branding. Prodrive, for better or worse, is VERY involved in most of the championships that Subaru is officially involved in. If Prodrive isn't running the program for whatever sub-group of Subaru, they are likely providing parts or expertise. Prodrive is also very invovled in Subaru's PWRC efforts as well as a hole score of customer car teams in various championships. This in addition to there road car parts that, at least in the US, are becoming integral parts of the dealership experience and strategy for selling Subarus.

Prodrive has built themselves into a very integrated position with Subaru in rallying in general. This would be a very costly divorce and I can't forsee there being some other organization or team that has the facilities and capabilities to pick up the pieces from a Prodrive-Subaru divorce very quickly.

In fact, Subaru's best hope, is to increase the presence, size, and importance of STI (which then has the potential to cause an actor and or actor group problem) to provide a sufficient transitional body and group that can absorb enough of the shock and loss to be able to facilitate some sort of transition, if there ever was to be one.

The problem isn't that Prodrive is a contractor and has proffit seeking behaviors as a result of this; we aren't making similiar claims about M-Sport, due in large to their lack of conflicting interests in terms of resource allocation (ie contractors are not the problem). The problem is that Prodrive is a niche company and that they are trying to be more than that.

[Nenukknak]

Look here:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/rallye/news/2007/01/Subaru_Richards_will_wieder_mehr_mitreden_07011202 .html

and here:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/rallye/news/2007/04/Richards_Leob_wird_wieder_Weltmeister_07042001.htm l

If you don't understand German, i'll translate tomorrow. Or someone else will.

[smolvar]

Look here:
http://www.motorsport-total.com/rallye/news/2007/01/Subaru_Richards_will_wieder_mehr_mitreden_07011202 .html
and here:
http://www.motorsport-total.com/rallye/news/2007/04/Richards_Leob_wird_wieder_Weltmeister_07042001.htm l
If you don't understand German, i'll translate tomorrow. Or someone else will.

I'll wait till tomorrow

[Nenukknak]

First article: Januari 2007

Subaru: Richards wants to be more involved again. The team should start from zero. The glorydays are over and in 2006 the team changed the top-managerial positions, but that couldn’t turn around the downfall. So David Richards wants to become more involved in the team again to turn matters around. According to Richards the team should start from scrap, back to basics, and that in every aspect of the team. “It happens to the best teams everywhere in motorsport, as we’ve seen many times.” Subaru should as it were push the reset button and start from the beginning. “When you have a problem, that problem causes the next problem and so forth. But you’ve created the first problem yourself, because you didn’t react in time. In that case you have to take apart the entire structure and rebuild everything from scratch.” Richards feels it is time again to become more involved again, to help the team.

Second article: April 2007

Relevant for this thread:

We started re-organizing mid 2006, because up to that point everything had gone wrong. For instance we got new designers, because the old car was simply badly designed. The car that started the 2007 campaign already had some changes, but they didn’t help much. The new impreza, that we are currently driving, is better, competitive, and could be a podium-contender, and maybe even win one. However, the team is now fully concentrating on 2008. A completely new car, then will also become apparent how the team’s structural changes have worked out.
The 2007 car has shown pace, but so far not very reliable. Richards says that that’s due to a lack of testing, especially before it’s Mexico debut.. With more tests the car should become more reliable and also faster. Before Argentina the team should have enough time to do all the testing it needs.

[MJW]

First article: Januari 2007

Before Argentina the team should have enough time to do all the testing it needs.

Autosport magazine thursday 26th runs a lead story in its rally news section that last weeks 5 day test was not good at all!

[pentti]

That would actually only benefit the team if you go by the current mantra here that engineers can't build a car if their lives dependent on it. All you need is a short car with high cog and no laptops near it, that'll win you rallies. ;) You are far too young to be this clever!

[pentti]

Anyone thought about the possibility that Subaru Impreza as basis just is not good enough for today's WRC?You are absolutely right here.The engine location(remember Audi).

[Minke]

You are absolutely right here.The engine location(remember Audi).

Engine location as in being low COG (as the flat four is) or:

the fact that the engine is over the front axel and needs to be moved back towards the centre of the car?

[DonJippo]

Engine location as in being low COG (as the flat four is) or:

the fact that the engine is over the front axel and needs to be moved back towards the centre of the car?

The later one.

[pentti]

The later one.Correct but the rules does not allow more than they already have done.

[Nenukknak]

And here we go again. I'm not refuting that engine-position for Subaru is not perfect, I don't know how it is for the other teams. As for the engineering part of the car. The Xsara and the Pug 206, both dominant cars over the last 6 years, both started development on asphalt, yet they ruled on all surfaces. The Subaru always has been a very good car. But somewhere the designers lost the plot, it happens. Maybe the road-going car's engine lay-out of the C4 and new Focus are indeed better for rallying, but there is more to a good rallycar than engine-position.

[cut the b.s.]

but there is more to a good rallycar than engine-position.

indeed there is, but it is one very important factor, and under current rules the road car design really dictates, engineers can do there stuff on the rest of the car but there is only a small amount they can do to the engine position

[smolvar]

the fact that the engine is over the front axel and needs to be moved back towards the centre of the car?

How is this not a problem for the transverse FWD based cars like the C4?
Seems like they would have more weight balance issues with that setup.

[bt52b]

The WRX 2008 engine layout doesn't look a whole lot better?

http://pix.nofrag.com/27/41/9bde8761b190411b8dec0dd8f029.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/27/41/9bde8761b190411b8dec0dd8f029.html)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1230198

[janvanvurpa]

How is this not a problem for the transverse FWD based cars like the C4?
Seems like they would have more weight balance issues with that setup.

What he should have said is in the Sub-a-rat design, same as the old ill handling Audis, the ENTIRE engine is placed well forward of the differential in front, which means thecenter of the motor, all 100% of weight of the motor is between 25-50cm in front of the axle in front.

In traverse engines the motor is just half the diameter of the front diff plus a little, and many tilt the engine back so that its weight is above the axle.

At least on some older North/South designs such as the Ford Sapphire and Escort Cosworths, the diff was bolted to the sump about between
about cylinder 3 and 4, so in effect only about 1/2 of the engine weight was ahead of the axle.

No Subaru is locked into their design and have wrapped up too much marketing BS about "their" boxer design to change anything drastically, and even though this makes no difference for 99% of the world driving Subarus, that forward weight may just be finally making differences when the other cars as so optimised.

[MJW]

Might be related comment but both DR and David Lapworth have said that it will take Prodrive 5 years to become truly competitive in F1, and that medium term Aston Martin could feature in the Prodrive F1 arrangement. Seems to me that Prodrive have made their choice?.......