The Official Sebastian Vettel Fan Support Group Thread [Archive]

zako85

8th July 2014, 17:10

To All Vettel fans,

After this British GP, the right moment has come to admit that serious problems plague our community. For years, haters said that our glorious four-time world champion was winning only because of Adrian Newey designed car. There were accusations of cheating and sabotage at Red Bull. Normally, we shrugged off those accusations. However, it's very hard to ignore the reality in 2014. Vettel is being beaten by his aussie rookie teammate in WDC. To add the insult to injury, the haters are saying that Vettel is the whiniest driver on the grid. I was trying to take some comfort in the fact that, despite finishing only fifth and behind his teammate, Vettel still beat Alonso on Sunday. However, after the race Alonso said that Vettel's car was two seconds a lap fast.

I can't take this any more. I feel so depressed. So Vettel fans. Let's hold each other's hands and try to help each other through this difficult season. And let's not forget about Raikkonen's fans. They are living through a difficult, enduring time as well. May our communities work together in order to become stronger.

airshifter

8th July 2014, 18:11

Hand holding isn't going to help Seb, and it certainly isn't going to help Kimi. Both are drivers that have had better days, yet both are currently having some issues that should give them a reality check. For fans of either, it should do the same.

As for the "haters" thing, I think a lot of that if fueled by smack talk in the years they are doing well, and often forum members (and others) are quick to return the smack talk when things turn. If people can't take it, they shouldn't dish it out when the shoe is on the other foot. In reality I think a lot of people get WAY too wrapped up in the stuff myself. If my favorite driver is dominating it doesn't mean squat in regards to my talents.

Kimi is being humbled way worse than Seb at the moment, but nobody is saying that everyone hates Kimi. They are just stating facts, and the fact is that Alonso is making Kimi look like a taxi driver at the moment. Tazio is laying it on thick, but he's still upset that Fred couldn't get a title for Ferrari. :laugh: And the fact is that neither of them has had a title in quite a while, despite Fred driving the wheels off a pig for years now.

Seb is being beaten by Daniel, and it's a blow to him after years of being the top driver. It could be he doesn't get along with the new cars, it could be that Ricciardo is just a better driver. Only time will tell. I think Seb thrives on being #1 in a team, and with Webber gone things have changed.

Currently I do think Seb is among the whiningest drivers on the grid, and he's made it apparent he is not a team player. With statement like "tough luck" it shouldn't be a shock that he had drawn some critical eyes. Personally I think he's dealing with the same issues Hamilton had for a period, mainly being losing his cool and letting it get in his head. If he would just calm down and drive, he is still among the top drivers, and his results would be in line with what the car can do against the current competition.

Until then, I'm not shedding any tears over any of it. I think the current field has so much talent that it's easy for a driver to go from hero to zero quickly. Seb isn't there yet, but if Newey leaves the RB cars could be in real trouble IMO. Kimi is already there, but he doesn't care. And if the cars change, either of them could be back on better form quickly.

henners88

8th July 2014, 19:21

Nicely said airshifter. Seb is going through a rough patch but even rival fans have seen him drive better. Time will tell as you say concerning his performance in comparison to his team mate but his fans need to remember the shoe was on the other foot 12 months ago and a lot was rubbed in. The beauty of F1 is nobody stays at the top forever and these top guys need to cope with mental, and performance slumps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Zico

8th July 2014, 21:22

Again, very well put Airshifter.

I'm not sure a Vettel, or Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso fanboys own thread for that matter, is the best idea tbh. I fear it may encourage even more cliqueness and division when we should all be united and enjoying one of the better F1 seasons in recent years.

MrJan

8th July 2014, 21:51

This thread isn't for me, I've spent the season so far taking delight in people realising that Vettel isn't as good as a number of other drivers on the grid....Fernando on the other hand...

Doc Austin

9th July 2014, 01:47

Don't worry. Vettel will be back.

airshifter

9th July 2014, 05:46

Don't worry. Vettel will be back.

It's interesting to note that the majority of the people in the Pickems picked Vettel to place ahead of Alonso, yet the majority also picked Ricciardo to finish ahead of Vettel. He needs to get his head back in the game if he wants to be the number 1 driver on the team again. He's almost being too nice to Ricciardo.

Doc Austin

9th July 2014, 06:17

When Vettel qualified second I was hoping this was his weekend to turn it around, but then he got a horrible start. He still did not do too badly, but what a comedown from winning 4 straight titles and then all those races in a row. He's got to be in a bit of shock.

Hawkmoon

9th July 2014, 10:50

MacFeegle

9th July 2014, 16:14

Vettel lovers hold hand and cry tears in huddle. I like, very funny.

Is for real? People think this?

Sad people, grow up.

zako85

10th July 2014, 13:37

Never thought that people would take the OP literally. Must try harder.

Ranger

10th July 2014, 15:25

If there's one thing Vettel really nailed, it was the exhaust-blown diffuser Red Bull cars, which Webber didn't really come to terms with. In certain races where that advantage was negated due to rule changes/clarifications (i.e. Silverstone 2011), Webber was a lot closer to him.

I'd say that's the reason Vettel is not doing so well this year, now that there's no exhaust/diffuser loophole to exploit. I think Ricciardo is more consistent and mentally tougher than Webber was, but Vettel hasn't really figured out the RB10 yet.

I don't miss his irksome celebrations though.

airshifter

10th July 2014, 16:05

Never thought that people would take the OP literally. Must try harder.

I assumed that the post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but it reflects fairly well on what is going on with quite a few forum members here. They get so wrapped up when their driver wins and talk smack, then act all butt hurt when things change.

To me F1 is about being the cutting edge of motorsport. I want changes in drivers, cars, tactics, etc. And I'm not going to whine and cry when a driver I like starts to decline. It's the nature of racing. Some people will defend their driver or attack another driver at all costs and with great bias. At that point it's just blind faith and not paying attention to the reality of the results.

I think if Seb gets his head back in it he might have a chance to at least mostly catch up with Ricciardo. And overall the RB isn't a terrible car this year, it's just no longer the car that dominates. I do think things could change quick if Newey steps too far away though, and that might cause a downward spiral with the team.

driveace

10th July 2014, 20:35

Can't be much wrong with the RB as Ric has been on the podium more than any other driver not in a Merc ,so I consider it is the best of the rest .But you are not tempting dj out of his lair onto this thread yet !

dj_bytedisaster

11th July 2014, 00:16

When was the last time the reigning world champion failed to win a race the following year? Villeneuve in 1998? Vettel is half way to achieving the feat which says everything you need to know about his season.

He should have won Canada. He was in front of RIC all race until the team utterly botched his second stop. They even publicly apologized to him. So it's not that he's forgotten how to drive. He had almost all mechanicals this year. He's just having a horrible year and for whatever reason the team seems to shaft him for some reason. Out of six testing days this season, RIC got three and Vettel got two and that after he already had a deficit after winter testing, not to count the frequent car failures during the season. The mileage advantage of RIC must measure in the thousands by now.

Hawkmoon

11th July 2014, 02:27

He should have won Canada. He was in front of RIC all race until the team utterly botched his second stop. They even publicly apologized to him. So it's not that he's forgotten how to drive. He had almost all mechanicals this year. He's just having a horrible year and for whatever reason the team seems to shaft him for some reason. Out of six testing days this season, RIC got three and Vettel got two and that after he already had a deficit after winter testing, not to count the frequent car failures during the season. The mileage advantage of RIC must measure in the thousands by now.

I don't think you can read too much into the amount of testing Ricciardo and Vettel have done. Someone of Vettel's class shouldn't need thousands of kilometres of testing to come to grips with a car. From memory Schumacher used to sit out much of winter testing in his later years with Ferrari and he never seemed to suffer from it.

You'd have to be mad to suggest that Red Bull would deliberately sabotage their 4 time defending world champion in favour of the new guy who's never finished higher than 6th prior to the season. It's just not going to happen. Canada may have been a screw up but these things happen. Yes Vettel has had his share of mechanical trouble this year but Ricciardo has had a mechanical DNF in Malaysia and a DQ in Australia so it's not like the Aussie has had a trouble free season either.

The fact that we are even having this discussion shows how bad a season Vettel is having. He's a class driver and he'll recover I'm sure but give his teammate some credit because he deserves it.

jens

11th July 2014, 05:12

Even based on 2014 form alone Vettel is still a good driver, though not very good at the moment. I'd certainly rank him among top6 drivers on the grid even on current form. 3 DNFs with car failures and a few races, where he has been held up for significant parts of races haven't helped his cause. But Red Bull together with Mercedes has one of the closest team-mate battles on the grid. But I am glad Red Bull team-mate battle is exciting and both drivers are going well, at the present moment Ricciardo is the man in form.

And if someone asks, why do I consider this team-mate battle close:
- UK. Ricciardo finished ahead, but Vettel was pretty much having a good shot at beating him, largely let down by strategy.
- Austria. Ricciardo was better (at least in Q) though Vettel's car broke down early so we have no clue really...
- Canada. Running absolutely together till the final laps mess with Ricciardo winning.
- Monaco. Vettel was actually ahead with a better start, but his car broke down.
- Spain. Ricciardo comfortably third, but Vettel came from way behind to get 4th. Both had speed.
- China & Bahrain. Two weekends, where Vettel really lacked speed.
- Malaysia. Ricciardo had problems, but Vettel was ahead of him before that anyway.
- Australia. Vettel had car problems all weekend.

In short. Ricciardo slightly better so far, but Vettel has had speed on most weekends and overall it is close. However, as mentioned above, it looks like Ricciardo is much more consistent than Webber and Vettel has a tough time capitalizing on any weaknesses Ricciardo might have. Looking at Ricciardo's driving, he very much looks like a top driver - very fast, consistent, error-free. What else do you want? If you race against such driver, it is hard to beat him.

henners88

11th July 2014, 09:03

zako85

8th September 2014, 14:54

HEREUPON I SUMMON ALL OF VETTEL'S FAITHFUL,

At the Italian GP Vettel was beaten by his teammate fair and square once again. This is an extremely difficult time for all of the fans of our Holy Vettel. I am calling upon all of you to stand strong and refrain from abandoning the ranks of the faithful in order to defect to the Ricciardian infidels. We need to discuss our future strategy. So, what do we do next?

journeyman racer

8th September 2014, 15:13

I never notice this thread before :o lol

As each races passes in 2014, Vettel is devaluing the achievement of winning a F1 title.

N. Jones

8th September 2014, 15:18

I look at it this way:

He can't win the title every year until he retires. No one can, so, no worries.

Big Ben

8th September 2014, 15:19

Well, we've said that he has to learn to drive intuitively after having to learn to drive counterintuitively... whatever that means. But that explanation has sort of an expiration date so we need to find something new or else people we'll start saying he's just a one trick pony... I know I'm not very imaginative here but how about... sabotage? I apologize if someone else has came up with that already.

N. Jones

8th September 2014, 15:28

One trick pony?

I don't think four trophies would constitute a one hit wonder...

journeyman racer

8th September 2014, 15:44

4 trophies. But it was the same story. Not good enough to win a Domestic Rally comp.

The Black Knight

8th September 2014, 16:32

In a way I feel sorry for Vettel. It must be quite difficult going through what he is going through now. Having fooled experienced guys like Brundle into thinking that he was one of the greats and to be so badly exposed like this. As much as I don't like the guy, this is just utterly humiliating what Ricciardo is doing to him.

andyone

8th September 2014, 17:46

I look at it this way:

He can't win the title every year until he retires. No one can, so, no worries.
yeah but a few world champions dont win a race a year after they have been champions in a row.. huh

Doc Austin

8th September 2014, 18:05

All I can say is that I am surprised Vettel is getting beaten so badly by his teammate. As a Vettel fan, I have no way to answer that. Ricciardo is simply brilliant.

However, I don't think Vettel's won his last race or anything. He might even have a championship or two left in him. Certainly not this year, but I think eventually he will come out of this slump and get competitive again.

You've got to remember that Vettel made Mark Webber look ordinary, and Webber now drives for the Porsche factory team. I can't remember the last time they hired someone ordinary to drive for them at LeMans. There is simply too much money and too much corporate image (especially for Porsche and especially at LeMans) at stake to hire less than the best drivers available.

If indeed Vettel is just a worthless hack who found himself in an unbeatable car for four consecutive years, that does not speak very highly of the state of Formula or the competing teams. If a hack driver can so soundly thrash Alonso in a Ferrari four years in a row, what does that say about any team outside of Red Bull?

I think the answer is that Red Bull had a dominant car and Vettel got the most out of it. As to what's wrong now, my best guess is that he is simply burned out. The pressure of four championships in a row has got to be very wearing.

After the years of Prost, Senna and Schumacher chopping, blocking, swerving and crashing into other drivers on purpose, I guess I liked the idea of having an honest champion who won his titles cleanly and sportingly. I've never seen Vettel pull a dirty trick, which is why I admire him. I'll also go so far as to say the same thing about Alonso and Hamilton. Ricciardo and Botas seem to be very fair racers too. Currently I don't see a villain in F1, though Rosberg has raised a few eyebrows

Tazio

8th September 2014, 20:29

I read somewhere that Seb has named his new car 'Billy's Missus'. :cool:

steveaki13

8th September 2014, 21:14

I think some of you are going a bit overboard on the Vettel bashing personally. I know its easy to in order to balance out certain members views on here.

He may not be up with the other 4 time World Champions or even 3 time world champions, but 4 titles is what he and Red Bull have and he had to be one hell of a driver to do that.

He should be proud of what he has achieved and revel in that even if he never wins another.

I guess its clear its maybe not as hard to win a title these days, which in itself is surprising because modern F1 tends to be more competitive in terms of the whole pack, but domination appears to be all to common these days.

We need a season where the title is a season long battle between 2 or 3 drivers from 2 or 3 teams. That would spice up F1 again.

As it is at least Rosberg is not 100 points ahead of Hamilton and we do have a title fight

journeyman racer

9th September 2014, 01:02

Alfa Fan

9th September 2014, 01:43

Schumacher in 05 (USGP doesn't count)

Of course it counts. He won that race for the very reason he was unable to win any of the others..

Tazio

9th September 2014, 01:55

Of course it counts. He won that race for the very reason he was unable to win any of the others..

Amen brother.

N. Jones

9th September 2014, 04:28

yeah but a few world champions dont win a race a year after they have been champions in a row.. huh

Some world champions only won one race in their championship year.

zako85

9th September 2014, 13:42

4 trophies. But it was the same story. Not good enough to win a Domestic Rally comp.

2010 was one of the most competitive years of all time. 2012 was pretty good too, with the title battle going into the last race of season.

zako85

9th September 2014, 14:13

yeah but a few world champions dont win a race a year after they have been champions in a row.. huh

Vettel sets a new record. Hurray!

jens

9th September 2014, 14:16

Yeah, Vettel is having an average year and is worse than I thought. He is a 4-trick pony though.:D Or even 6-trick, because 2008 was already very good too.:) And even during that period rules changed somewhat. Completely new rules in 2009, in 2011 we got the undurable Pirelli tyres, in 2012 we got EBD ban.

I agree he has probably burnt out. Like Häkkinen in 2001. Even Seb's usual late-season spurt is non-existent though at least he has started qualifying very well again.

rjbetty

9th September 2014, 19:52

Yep, of course Seb is one of the top drivers, I think almost all of us acknowledge that.

But I think the reason some of us are a little unhappy with dj is that he spent four years crowing of how Vettel is the greatest, not at all taking into regard any of Webber's issues holding him back, then when now the shoe is on the other foot, being as ungracious a loser as he was a winner, frankly.

I don't mind really but I can see why others might be a little put out.

It may just be that Sebby is one of the best but not the best. Nothin to be ashamed of. I rate him equal to Rosberg but a tiny bit above, since I'm not sure Nico would have won 4 in a row, plus Monza 2008 etc.

I think Hamilton is faster/more talented, but Vettel has shown he's excellent at "managing" what he is, maybe better than Alonso in some ways.

He's allowed a bad year, but if this continues next year, we have to think about cutting the excuses.

steveaki13

9th September 2014, 19:58

Hear what your saying rj, but in my opinion I cannot rate a 4 time world champion level with someone yet to win a single championship.

I believe once you have won one, you can be compared in a way because you can do it and win a title.

Vettel on the other hand is not 4 times better than Hamilton and is not twice as good as Fred.

rjbetty

9th September 2014, 20:16

Hear what your saying rj, but in my opinion I cannot rate a 4 time world champion level with someone yet to win a single championship.

That's cool :)

But what I also meant to say was that I had in mind something Niki Lauda said in 2010. He stated that he felt Nico Rosberg was actually doing pretty much as good a job as Vettel, which seemed a surprise at the time. The same year, and in 2011, Ross Brawn observed that Nico was actually VERY good in qualifying, as Michael was struggling against him. It's interesting to recall this in light of this season.

I also don't know how Vettel would handle Hamilton as a team-mate if he was in the Mercedes. Maybe he'd be pressured into making more mistakes and thus looking a little weaker, since he had it a little easier with an aging (in F1 terms) Webber.

I have been thinking lately about Vettel's recent years. What I think may not have been noticed so much, but I feel is actually every bit as crucial as having (mostly) the best car, is the tender loving care and support he received. I feel a lot of people rubbish or minimise this factor, but if you look at the best drivers over time, this seems to be VERY important in helping a driver reach another level in themselves, when they know they are favoured, and something Vettel benefitted from much more than most drivers.

jens

9th September 2014, 21:24

The might has fallen. Let's embrace the new era with new contenders.

The psychological, also physical/endurance/exhaustion side of a sportsman is certainly interesting as well. For years you are consistently at the top, able to get a good run and challenge. Then a new year starts with lots of car problems, the car being not so good, team-mate being too good. You fight an uphill battle, such uphill you have never faced in your career and you break, run out of steam you can't take it any more. The recent races have been really unimpressive by Vettel. At least earlier in the season he could genuinely compete with Ricciardo, often let down by reliability, but now he is just not fast.

By the way, Hülkenberg is also going through slump. The same Hulk, who had a stunning second half of 2013 in the Sauber. I still remember him qualifying 3rd at Monza in the Sauber. Now he was nowhere in Force India. Well, just as another example of a slump and ups-and-downs. Interestingly I see some similarities between Vettel and Hulk. People often say that Vettel is only good in a good car, but there is some deeper reasoning IMO. Vettel was good in 2008 midfield STR. And in many periods Hulk has been good in midfield cars though he never had top cars. It seems there are certain car characteristics they struggle with. Also both Vettel and Hulk (2012, 2013) have often been particularly impressive in the second half of seasons, but not the case in 2014... The "twin-stuff" reminds me of Button and Heidfeld - I always maintainted those two drivers were somewhat similar...

Maybe it will be good for Vettel. To start 2015 as an underdog without many expectations - an average driver in a (most probably) pretty good(ish) car. 2014 is a lost cause. Bye for 2014. Eyes for 2015 to relax and recharge the batteries. Oh, and during 2014 we haven't seen the finger for a single time. Though a couple of quali sessions have been close to P1...

journeyman racer

10th September 2014, 15:30

2010 was one of the most competitive years of all time. 2012 was pretty good too, with the title battle going into the last race of season.
2010 wasn't competitive. Vettel and Webber should've had a similar season to what the MB drivers are having this year. They were terrible that year. Even Hamilton choked in the last 1/4, and Alonso was sloppy in the first half of the season. It was an entertaining battle. But both 2010 and 12 were weak titles

Of course it counts. He won that race for the very reason he was unable to win any of the others..
Spare me :stareup:

Storm

10th September 2014, 21:41

Vettel has fans?

steveaki13

10th September 2014, 21:49

Vettel has fans?

:laugh:

Mia 01

10th September 2014, 21:54

I like sebastian, still do. He is one of the greatest driver on the F1 grid. Some people like to bash him, they have their agenda. I pitty them.

steveaki13

10th September 2014, 22:18

I like sebastian, still do. He is one of the greatest driver on the F1 grid. Some people like to bash him, they have their agenda. I pitty them.

I agree Mia. He is one of the best 3 drivers on the grid. You don't win 4 titles by luck

jens

11th September 2014, 09:54

Vettel has fans?

Yes, a couple of these ones.

http://www.idleengineers.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Fan.png

;)

airshifter

11th September 2014, 13:23

I agree Mia. He is one of the best 3 drivers on the grid. You don't win 4 titles by luck

Just curious as to who you would consider the other two drivers?

I think Seb is still a very good driver, but also had the luxury of the dominant car. With Webber in the other RB, team domination was easy. I still don't quite know where to rate him though, as now Ricciardo is beating him on a regular basis. I don't think I could rate him top 3, but maybe top 6-8.

I actually see Seb as being very similar to Lewis. At times he can be super focused and fast on track, but at other times he lets other drivers get into his head and he does some things that hurt him in the long run. But that applies to quite a few drivers, and with the pressure these guys have I can't at all blame them for being human when your every move is watched by such a large group.

I think the love or hate feelings many express about Seb are often common with any driver doing really well for an extended period. It's sad really. I won't make time to bash him or praise him as above all others, and only time will tell where I decide he really falls in terms of total driver talent. But I can certainly agree, you don't win multiple titles on luck alone.

zako85

11th September 2014, 14:06

Perhaps after six years of wild success Vettel kind of lost the motivation or the kind of hunger he used to have. Or perhaps, he simply feels disoriented and lost focus?

steveaki13

11th September 2014, 22:31

Just curious as to who you would consider the other two drivers?

Just so everyone waiting to bash me can, I rate the most complete drivers currently

1. Alonso - A fair bit clear of the rest in my opinion
2. Hamilton - He is fast in a good car out front, but also battles hard. Not near Alonso, but still second
3. Vettel - He is fast and has a good way of getting the team around him, like Schumi. He cannot outperform a car like Alonso, but I think he is 3rd best.

For those about to tell me Ricciardo is better cause of this season, I will stop you now. 4 titles won and in the bag and some are ready to say Ricciardo is better. Thats laughable really. He is better this season, or in this car, but he didn't win a race in a Toro Rosso and finish top 5 5 or 6 times and hasn't won 30 odd races and 4 titles.

out of interest

4. Raikkonen - easy to mock him, but last season he was winning races
5. Ricciardo - Moved up some places in my eyes this year.
6. Rosberg - After Nico it becomes less clear.

ShiftingGears

12th September 2014, 00:10

For those about to tell me Ricciardo is better cause of this season, I will stop you now. 4 titles won and in the bag and some are ready to say Ricciardo is better. Thats laughable really. He is better this season, or in this car, but he didn't win a race in a Toro Rosso and finish top 5 5 or 6 times and hasn't won 30 odd races and 4 titles.

But you are comparing apples and oranges there, because obviously just because they both raced for the same team at different times does not mean that the cars they drove had the same strengths and weaknesses compared to the rest of the field they raced. So their results are not that comparable. I consider adaptability part of completeness, and we're more than halfway through the season and Vettel lost 30+ seconds to Ricciardo in the Italian Grand Prix despite being faster in every practice and qualifying session. One would've expected a more complete driver than Ricciardo to start outracing him at least by this point of the season.

journeyman racer

12th September 2014, 01:35

I get steveaki13's point. But there's a difference between driver's status and their abilities. It's a subtle difference. Vettel's light years ahead as far as status goes. Vettel might not be lucky, in the sense he didn't win 4 titles from the draw of a hat. But he was a bit fortunate to win in 10, when you can make the case Alonso, Hamilton and Webber were genuinely better than him. He was definitely fortunate to win in 12, when Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton were definitely better than him. 13 wasn't that crash hot til some RB political wrangling got involved. He may've got 4 titles, but his value is no more than a driver that's got one, two at best. There's no way anyone's telling me he's better than Mansell, Hakkinen, or some other 1-2 time champs.

Doc Austin

12th September 2014, 02:27

It is terrifying to think what Ricciardo could have done with the kind of car Vettel had the last four years. I do like Vettel a lot, and am dismayed by how badly Ricciardo is drumming him. There does not seem to be a good explanation for it.

jens

12th September 2014, 07:09

For most of the time Vettel was performing very well throughout 2008-2013 and that's a long time actually. That's more than being a one-trick pony, because regulations changed a few times during that period. As to why he is struggling in 2014 is another matter - perhaps there is a certain adaptability window for him, as in some things he can't go that well. Räikkönen was performing well up-to-and-including 2007, so that period also included many years, but suddenly hit a ceiling in 2008 and dropped backwards. So these things can happen.

Big Ben

12th September 2014, 09:47

jens, maybe I shouldn't say this out loud but in my post I was rather mocking a certain vettel fan than vettel himself. The fans annoy me much more than the drivers.

airshifter

12th September 2014, 17:05

Hawkmoon

14th September 2014, 14:32

I think it's way too early to say if Ricciardo is better than Vettel, though he's having an amazing season.

This season has lowered my opinion of Vettel a little. I can't recall the last time a world champion was so poor compared to his teammate whilst defending his title. Vettel is in a select group as one of the very few men to have won four WDCs. After this season would anyone not named DJ rate Vettel as the equal of Schumacher, Prost or Fangio? I don't think so.

jens

29th September 2014, 20:54

airshifter

29th September 2014, 21:07

People love to hate, and Vettel was certainly no exception to the rule. The only thing I really wonder is if he is just having issues with the car not being to his style, or if Ricciardo is just actually quicker regardless of the car.

With Singapore just having raced, it reminded me of a couple years back of some in car footage of Sebastian. The camera was aimed at his head/helmet, and you could see his eyes. During one part of the track I timed it and his concentration was so intense he didn't blink for some 45 seconds or so.

How a person could hate that I don't know. But I think often the forum battles are a matter of one extreme attacking the other, and many people assuming that anyone that has any opinion belongs to one of those extremes between being a fanboi or being a hater.

jens

29th September 2014, 21:19

People love to hate, and Vettel was certainly no exception to the rule. The only thing I really wonder is if he is just having issues with the car not being to his style, or if Ricciardo is just actually quicker regardless of the car.

If I listen to the views of insiders, i.e at Sky Sports, then almost everybody says that Vettel is an excellent driver, but doesn't like the car/hasn't adapted to it. The big question now is whether issues with these new reg. cars are a permanent or temporary issue. 2015 will be telling. But Ricciardo is an excellent driver, he possesses the kind of consistency Mark Webber never had. I don't think he would be a pushover. If in 2015 Vettel feels more comfortable in the car, we could see a classic team-mate battle, which would be even more fascinating if this car was able to compete for the title.

zako85

30th September 2014, 12:10

From forum perspective in a way I like Vettel is so off the radar this year.:p: Looking at the tight title battle, it has clearly heated people up and the Singapore GP thread got banned. In the past years Vettel was consistently the target in these discussions, but now it is good to re-build your career in silence while others are being targeted. :p:

I don't fully buy into the hypothesis that Vettel can't adapt to the new car. In 2008, Vettel sat in a brand new to him car and won the first GP ever for a Toro Rosso, I mean a Red Bull, team and then he went on to score more points than any Toro Rosso, I mean Red Bull, driver ever in history which helped Toro Rosso to beat even its mother team for the first and only time in team's history. Other examples exist. In 2012, Kimi Raikkonen came out of nowhere and joined Lotus after a two year break. Since the beginning of the 2012 season he drove as if he never quit F1 (up to the end of 2013 that is).

I kind of start wondering that Vettel is simply not as hungry as he used to be. The 2014 for him, is probably like the 2011 season for Hamilton. Facing the reality of racing in a clearly subpar car and with four titles under the belt, Vettel's morale took a hit. What's the best prize he can win this year? Third place in WDC at best. Perhaps being third means a lot to Ricciardo, but I can see Vettel feel a little disoriented when that's the best he can possibly hope for. An older driver would have just announced a retirement by now. (and we have seen it before)

The Black Knight

30th September 2014, 13:17

I don't fully buy into the hypothesis that Vettel can't adapt to the new car. In 2008, Vettel sat in a brand new to him car and won the first GP ever for a Toro Rosso, I mean a Red Bull, team and then he went on to score more points than any Toro Rosso, I mean Red Bull, driver ever in history which helped Toro Rosso to beat even its mother team for the first and only time in team's history. Other examples exist. In 2012, Kimi Raikkonen came out of nowhere and joined Lotus after a two year break. Since the beginning of the 2012 season he drove as if he never quit F1 (up to the end of 2013 that is).

I kind of start wondering that Vettel is simply not as hungry as he used to be. The 2014 for him, is probably like the 2011 season for Hamilton. Facing the reality of racing in a clearly subpar car and with four titles under the belt, Vettel's morale took a hit. What's the best prize he can win this year? Third place in WDC at best. Perhaps being third means a lot to Ricciardo, but I can see Vettel feel a little disoriented when that's the best he can possibly hope for. An older driver would have just announced a retirement by now. (and we have seen it before)

Hunger is probably a factor alright but I also believe this is what distinguishes the brilliant drivers from the all time greats. There's a particular crop of driver that would never give up no matter what machinery they were given. These are the all-time greats such as Schumacher, Senna, Alonso all of whom I rate amongst the best drivers ever to grace an F1 car. To me, Seb had his chance to prove he was in amongst that crop of drivers this year and he has failed miserably. Believe it or not, even though I'm not a fan of is, I was hoping he'd prove he could do it because I'd hate to see a driver that doesn't belong among the all time greats having earned 4 WDC titles as it completely devalues WDC crown. He has had his chance to pull off a year like Senna 93, Schumacher 98, Alonso 2012 but he didn't. I know reliability has played a factor but he never even looked close. It's disappointing to say the least and he can't really blame driving style, it's up to him adapt to make the best of the machinery at his disposal. A 4 time WDC at his peak should be capable of doing this.

Bagwan

30th September 2014, 13:42

I don't believe it's any hunger or motivation issue at all .
He may be , in effect , running for third place in the game , but one is always compared to one's team mate , and no four time champ doesn't want to dominate in his own team .

What we're forgetting here is that these guys are not far from each other's pace .
The top nine at the last quals were within a half a second .

It's a damn fine line between having a car you like , and feel comfortable in , and having one described as undriveable .
Tiny adjustments make big differences .
Even changing the driver's engineer can rock the driver's boat .

It takes work to get all the ducks lined up , and only one dog in the distance to scatter them all .

Doc Austin

16th March 2015, 22:27

What does everyone think now?

I always figured Vettel had plateaued out. It seems the Ferrari move rejuvenated him a bit.

anfield5

16th March 2015, 23:00

Agreed.

I don't for a second think Vettel is as good as Fred, but he is a very, very good driver. He is in a win-win situation at Ferrari. We all know last years car was a big red dog, so the expectation on him this year is less. His 3rd in Aus was a great effort and proved that he is still a good driver. The only thing that can go badly for him is if Kimi roundly beats him.

In any walk of life you need a change every now and then to revitalise yourself. Credit to Vettel for taking the risk and moving when he did, especially to a dire looking Ferrari.

rjbetty

16th March 2015, 23:17

He must be doing alright.

I don't think it was Seb's Ferrari move was a big a risk as Hamilton's Merc move. At the time, it was known Newey and Prodromou were leaving and Renault were poor. But at the time Lewis let, many said McLaren had the fastest car, and there was no reason at the time to see that change.

However, it wasn't clear to me till recently how competitive Ferrari were going to be. I mean, before I knew about the reputed 80bhp engine hike, my Grand Prix 2 simulation spat Vettel and Kimi out 10th and 11th in the WDC!

I rate Seb as the 3rd best driver in F1.

jens

17th March 2015, 10:35

What does everyone think now?

I always figured Vettel had plateaued out. It seems the Ferrari move rejuvenated him a bit.

Let's put it this way. If last year Alonso had doubts about Ferrari being a better prospect than McLaren-Honda, then well, he must be reconsidering this statement!

I am not saying everything is all rosy and well in Ferrari. Obviously they are still a second off the pace. And they undergone major restructuring last year. But I think Ferrari hit their low point in 2014, just like they did in 2009 after major rule changes, and now it is time to attempt the tough journey of catching up with the leaders. And there is at least some posivites!

Nobody knows, how this co-operation (Vettel-Ferrari) ends up. After 3 or 5 years it may end in disappointment. It may end with no further WDC titles. But sure enough right now I feel excited. Forza Sebastian @ Ferrari! :)

It is great that a simple P3 can make so happy! So 4 titles is not all the end. It is good to have them, but there is more to achievements.:)

kfzmeister

18th March 2015, 02:04

henners88

18th March 2015, 09:32

Last year at the season opener in Melbourne ALO finished in the dog of a Ferrari exactly the same time off the lead car (some 30 seconds). It is really more telling when you consider who dropped away towards the front, RB and Williams.
All this hype about SEB and his first race at Ferrari, making it look like his feedback and the arrival have immediately helped gain performance. Utter crap. The car is still no closer.
Lets see what things look like in a couple races.
I'd be willing to bet a real resurgence from RB and Williams, especially Bottas
It takes a good driver to finish where he did though. He was best of the rest after the Mercedes one two and it's clear the car is lacking rather than the driver. Kimi had a bad season coming back to a team that wasn't to his liking so Seb coming into a new environment with a new car is a situation I think he's handled quite well. I am sure he's frustrated it's not challenging for wins, but it's one race and he got a podium.

I was looking forward to seeing Fernando back at McLaren, however the package looks poor in race 1. It goes beyond anything the driver can do at present and hopefully they find answers soon. If they don't it will look like the second worst decision of his career and he's far too talented to be at the back. Seb looks like he made the better decision as it stands but there is a lot of work to do.

jens

18th March 2015, 09:48

Last year at the season opener in Melbourne ALO finished in the dog of a Ferrari exactly the same time off the lead car (some 30 seconds).

I am pretty sure last year there was a safety car in that race. Plus Hamilton had retired and Rosberg was unchallenged at the front, so could only cruise.

I am sure you are frustrated Vettel finished third, but don't worry - he won't be on the podium every race, he'll have worse days as well.;)

Good thing for me is that I don't feel the need to bash any drivers. I am just happy when the driver I like does well and don't feel angry about others, whether they succeed or not.

zako85

18th March 2015, 12:31

jens

18th March 2015, 12:55

It's very premature indeed to judge the whole season by its first race. The affluent teams will continue car development during the season, and the engine manufacturers will continue the development as well since most of them have a number of tokens left.

Nonetheless, I am willing to believe into the rumor, promoted by all the news articles, quotes and blogs, that the Renault engine development has seriously fallen behind. Ferrari is now going to be clearly the number two engine, and the pace of Ferraris and Saubers confirmed this during the Australian GP. This doesn't mean that Ferrari will always stay in front of Red Bull during the season. Red Bull is an expert at tweaking the chassis, and they have proven in 2013 that they can bounce up from an also run up to a dominant team.

I don't think the season is judged by the first race and it is clear Ferrari will have their hands full with Williams and Red Bull this year. I just think P3 in the opening race is worth celebrating. It is sort of a milestone to put it this way. Good start of a new era.

It is clear there will be many races, where Vettel won't be on the podium. And can win a race this year only if Mercedes trip over themselves, which can happen though - happen thrice last year with Ricciardo capitalizing.

However, I also would not write Renault off so quickly.

kfzmeister

19th March 2015, 02:40

I am pretty sure last year there was a safety car in that race. Plus Hamilton had retired and Rosberg was unchallenged at the front, so could only cruise.

I am sure you are frustrated Vettel finished third, but don't worry - he won't be on the podium every race, he'll have worse days as well.;)

Good thing for me is that I don't feel the need to bash any drivers. I am just happy when the driver I like does well and don't feel angry about others, whether they succeed or not.

Wasn't there a safety car this year as well? ;-)
Ok, so HAM and ROS cruised at the front together this year.

I am not frustrated that VET made a podium, but am tired of hearing how well things are at Ferrari since he showed up.

I am glad you are the way you are. I'll try to be more like you :-)

Big Ben

19th March 2015, 10:37

jens

20th March 2015, 12:35

It goes to show how low the tifosi's expectations have got. It's all awesome now because vettel is the main favorite to finish 3rd :laugh:. And I'll celebrate some day Alonso's massive achievement of finishing in the same lap as Mercedes :laugh:

Well, unfortunately the situation in F1 is such it is a race for third position for everyone except Mercedes right now. Likewise it was a great achievement for Ricciardo to finish third overall last year. Once the competitive game of F1 has shifted, the goalposts will move as well.

jens

20th March 2015, 12:41

Wasn't there a safety car this year as well? ;-)
Ok, so HAM and ROS cruised at the front together this year.

I am not frustrated that VET made a podium, but am tired of hearing how well things are at Ferrari since he showed up.

I am glad you are the way you are. I'll try to be more like you :-)

Thanks.:)

There was a safety car, though in the early laps. Last year it was somewhat later into the race. Never mind, this is not a big issue.

When last year Rosberg was alone at the front, he had less incentive to push as no-one was near. This year Hamilton had to put in an effort to keep Rosberg behind. It is not like Mercedes had a team order after the first lap to "no battling, keep positions and cruise to finish." Like McLaren did in 1998 with their arguable "first corner agreement" though they still lapped the field...

Okay, the Mercedes comparison is not so good since they dominate anyway. I think "things looking good at Ferrari" come down to various things. James Allison has had greater input into this car, and Ferrari has significantly improved the power unit. It is not about whether Vettel showed up or not, it is about how Ferrari as a team has progressed into this year. Plus they have had major management reshuffle.

Bagwan

20th March 2015, 13:21

Tazio

20th March 2015, 14:22

It was mentioned in the telecast , though , that they are greatly impressed at Seb's feedback , which intimated that Fred's wasn't very good .

Another bonus at Ferrari may be that the two drivers have styles that are similar .

Baggie you are really being very naïve imho .
One final note: For Ferrari fans it will be something of a struggle to get a feeling of being close to the project as neither Vettel nor Raikkonen uses social media, particularly Twitter, to share their thoughts. So it will be the official line only, which seems very old fashioned in these days of the “connected” sportsman.
You're taking the company line hook line, and sinker, which it is exactly what Ferrari want you to do. For christ sake at least Fred spoke Italian, which gave him a huge advantage in giving 'input'. Please produce a link that supports your hypotheses, because I think all you are doing is parroting what the official line is from the Ferrari propaganda machine, which I am finding quite amusing, on top of being extremely naïve.
The only question now is how deep you will swim with the bait :laugh:

Oh yes here is a little gem from Ferrari.com the official Ferrari web page.

In 2007, Kimi Raikkonen won his maiden outing for Ferrari, an achievement matched only by Juan Manuel Fangio, Mario Andretti and Nigel Mansell.
http://formula1.ferrari.com/en/races/australian-grand-prix-melbourne/?MID=401976688&UID=4176347466&utm_campaign=150316_F1_EN+%5Bgruppo%3A+F1+eng+-+contenuto%3A+post+GP+Australia+%5D&utm_content=4176347466&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=401976688

Seems a little odd that they would forget that Fred won his first race at Ferrari, or did they? :laugh:

airshifter

20th March 2015, 14:27

I'm glad that things are looking positive for Seb at Ferrari. Regardless of how the car does long term, it's apparent to me that the team is starting to "gel" much better and is more positive all around. Though it's hard to say any one person created this atmosphere I think to some extent someone like Alonso, and other former team members with his attitude, are toxic for a team. With management expected more out of Alonso due to car being crap, it finally drove him away. And let's face it, Ferrari is the team many if most drivers would want to be at. So I think the changes for the positive are as much who they got rid of as it is who is coming to the team recently.

But I do think both Sebastian and Kimi are more the "team player" types, especially as it applies to the engineers and pit personnel. During race coverage they were speaking of finding Kimi under a car with an engineer, and he commented that it was OK because he used to be a mechanic. They also spoke of Vettel being hands on with the guys in the pits.

Knowing you have team players is never a bad thing for the morale of a team. I hope they keep up their positive energy and create a car that stays to the liking of both drivers. I think both will do well this year if that takes place.

Tazio

20th March 2015, 15:14

This is not to take anything away from Seb, because I'm glad the team picked him up as he is a skilled driver in the prime of his career. But If you do some serious investigating, as opposed to theorizing about some type of driver chemistry :crazy:, you will realize that Ferrari are improved, because they have invested 22 of their 32 tokens into the PU already, and obviously it is paying dividends, and I think the influence of Allison is starting to show in the drivability of their chalenger. It also is very helpful having the kind of budget that they have, to pay good engineers to develop the car, and two talented drivers driving the things.

jens

21st March 2015, 12:56

jens

21st March 2015, 12:57

Oh yes here is a little gem from Ferrari.com the official Ferrari web page.

Seems a little odd that they would forget that Fred won his first race at Ferrari, or did they? :laugh:

I read that article on their page and looks like it is concentrated on Australian GP history. But Alonso won his debut Ferrari race in Bahrain, as indicentally this was the season opener that year.:)

Bagwan

21st March 2015, 14:40

Baggie you are really being very naïve imho .
You're taking the company line hook line, and sinker, which it is exactly what Ferrari want you to do. For christ sake at least Fred spoke Italian, which gave him a huge advantage in giving 'input'. Please produce a link that supports your hypotheses, because I think all you are doing is parroting what the official line is from the Ferrari propaganda machine, which I am finding quite amusing, on top of being extremely naïve.
The only question now is how deep you will swim with the bait :laugh:

Oh yes here is a little gem from Ferrari.com the official Ferrari web page.

Seems a little odd that they would forget that Fred won his first race at Ferrari, or did they? :laugh:

That's me , Taz , naive all over the place .

I guess you'd have to say that it perhaps was the tv announcer who was being "naive" , as he was the one relating the idea from the team .
I'm just here to make sure you heard it , as we were talking about feedback Fred .

Good on Fred for speaking Italian , but , you know that's a little more for the fans than for the team , right ?
You know they have a few English speakers there too , right ?

As for getting the stats wrong , I would rather they put the incompetent employee in that position than on the race team .
They look foolish to the anorak , but they came third in the race .

I hope Fred shows up next race , and not in a go-kart from 25 years ago .
And , I hope Mac and Honda show up as well .

airshifter

21st March 2015, 15:12

I read that article on their page and looks like it is concentrated on Australian GP history. But Alonso won his debut Ferrari race in Bahrain, as indicentally this was the season opener that year.:)

How quick they are to forget. Though in context, it was Kimi who ended the long streak of not winning the first race, so maybe it wasn't intentional by Ferrari.

This is not to take anything away from Seb, because I'm glad the team picked him up as he is a skilled driver in the prime of his career. But If you do some serious investigating, as opposed to theorizing about some type of driver chemistry :crazy:, you will realize that Ferrari are improved, because they have invested 22 of their 32 tokens into the PU already, and obviously it is paying dividends, and I think the influence of Allison is starting to show in the drivability of their chalenger. It also is very helpful having the kind of budget that they have, to pay good engineers to develop the car, and two talented drivers driving the things.

My opinion came from far more than a theory about driver chemistry, but from paying attention to the recent history at Ferrari. When the team mentality allows both drivers to race, their team does better. That and sweeping changes in management that affected the team mentality are large factors IMO.

Rubens left after being sick of being a required #2. Massa steps in and becomes the new #2. MS retires, Kimi steps in. Kimi and Massa are allowed to race, resulting in 1 WDC and a very close 2nd by the two drivers, with the close second drama coming down to the last corner of the last race, courtesy of Vettel passing Hammy in the wet. 2009 shows the world what a blow it was for Ferrari to lose Ross Brawn, as the Brawn car shows dominance. So for 2010 they remove their most recent WDC winner and bring in Alonso. Cue team orders, the largest allowed fine for bringing the sport into disrepute and Massa once again knowing he is #2. After a couple years of Massa being number 2, they bring Kimi back. So they sacked the guy that brought them within a point of a WDC, and kept the guy that never brought them that close, all while making it clear the car would be developed to his liking. And even after soundly beating Kimi in 2014, Fred has had enough and walks.

Ferrari have been their own worst enemies IMO. By demoting one driver when rules allow (and often when the rules didn't allow) they destroy that drivers morale. The sweeping team changes that started after spygate continued to happen, and started with moving all the Italians to the senior positions regardless of ability. Head chopping continued to the point of essentially blaming Alonso for not doing enough, despite the fact that he was driving the wheels off a car that was obviously a pig. Ferrari made a car not only down on power, but at twitchy as an addict in need of a fix. I'm surprised even Fred could drive the thing.

And in 2014 alone, Ferrari saw major changes in president, team principle, chief designer, engineering director, and the engine department.

What Ferrari need IMO is some stability, and to act as a team rather than a group of people assigning blame when the team doesn't come out on top. I hope the recent changes are the end of the instability. If not, neither Seb nor Kimi has a chance at another title IMO. But when I see drivers supporting each other, working with the engineers and pit personnel, and liking their jobs that is an indication to me that the team mentality is in place. They have two drivers both proven capable of WDC winning drives and seasons. What they need is to take a deep breath and let the team settle to function at their top level, showing loyalty to the members that have always performed at their highest level in attempts to bring them titles. This means replacing nobody.... at any level.... until they have a proven better person to do the job.

The mentality of cutting heads hasn't worked.

In a way I find it quite amusing that Vettel has got a personal "Fan" thread here on this forum.:p: I am unsure, what the initial motivations were, when this thread was created, but discussion has developed pretty nicely here over time!

I think when it started it was more a tongue in cheek jab at the extremes of the fanbois and haters trading jabs. I'm sure some of this will continue, as both camps will obviously continue to exist. I could quote some posts after the first race that would back that statement, but I think most of us see who the extremists are. :)

I just hope Seb made the move to the right Ferrari. The team needs to get their act together and collectively work on catching up with Mercedes, remaining optimistic yet accepting that it won't happen overnight. They once again appear to have two motivated and capable drivers, and I hope the two are allowed a fair fight on track.

Tazio

21st March 2015, 18:07

I read that article on their page and looks like it is concentrated on Australian GP history. But Alonso won his debut Ferrari race in Bahrain, as indicentally this was the season opener that year.:)I don't think you read it very well Dawg. Why did they mention Fangio, il leon, and Mario? none of those bro dudes won at Oz in a Ferrari. :laugh:

Kimi Raikkonen won his maiden outing for Ferrari, an achievement matched only by Juan Manuel Fangio, Mario Andretti and Nigel Mansell.
http://formula1.ferrari.com/en/races/australian-grand-prix-melbourne/?MID=401976688&UID=4176347466&utm_campaign=150316_F1_EN+%5Bgruppo%3A+F1+eng+-+contenuto%3A+post+GP+Australia+%5D&utm_content=4176347466&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=401976688
:idea: :angel:

Tazio

21st March 2015, 18:19

That's me , Taz , naive all over the place .

I guess you'd have to say that it perhaps was the tv announcer who was being "naive" , as he was the one relating the idea from the team .
I'm just here to make sure you heard it , as we were talking about feedback Fred .

Good on Fred for speaking Italian , but , you know that's a little more for the fans than for the team , right ?
You know they have a few English speakers there too , right ?

As for getting the stats wrong , I would rather they put the incompetent employee in that position than on the race team .
They look foolish to the anorak , but they came third in the race .

I hope Fred shows up next race , and not in a go-kart from 25 years ago .
And , I hope Mac and Honda show up as well .That employee is the head of the Ferrari propaganda machine :idea: That is not incompetence, and if it was I would expect a correction mate! :rolleyes:
.........still waiting :laugh:
At any rate it should be an interesting season. Let's see how fair the "new" team is to both pilotas this season! I suggest that not much has changed in that dept.

jens

21st March 2015, 18:50

I don't think you read it very well Dawg. Why did they mention Fangio, il leon, and Mario? none of those bro dudes won at Oz in a Ferrari. :laugh:

:idea: :angel:

You are right, I didn't read well.:) Well, guess, they... forgot then? :uhoh: Like I forgot to read properly! These things happen.;)

Bagwan

21st March 2015, 19:52

That employee is the head of the Ferrari propaganda machine :idea: That is not incompetence, and if it was I would expect a correction mate! :rolleyes:
.........still waiting :laugh:
At any rate it should be an interesting season. Let's see how fair the "new" team is to both pilotas this season! I suggest that not much has changed in that dept.

The guy with the "kick me" sign on his back always appreciates someone letting him know , before he gets kicked too often .
Did you send a wee note to Ferrari to let them know ?

If not , don't expect them to notice , as they are too busy keeping we , the naive , in stories , being that neither Seb or Kimi knows how to twit .

The reds stated that they had some pretty low ambition at first , but now they have seen a little potential , I think they understand that taking the fight to Mercedes will mean using both cars , because they see it as , in fact , possible . They are talking bigger now .

All there know the whole package is better , but the announcer went out of the way to say that the accolade
for Seb was as much taken as a shot at Fred .

Any way , no worries .
We'll see how his awesome simulator feedback improves the car next weekend .

Tazio

21st March 2015, 20:03

+1
Cheers mate! :stareup:

Tazio

21st March 2015, 20:10

The guy with the "kick me" sign on his back always appreciates someone letting him know , before he gets kicked too often .
Did you send a wee note to Ferrari to let them know ?

If not , don't expect them to notice , as they are too busy keeping we , the naive , in stories , being that neither Seb or Kimi knows how to twit .

The reds stated that they had some pretty low ambition at first , but now they have seen a little potential , I think they understand that taking the fight to Mercedes will mean using both cars , because they see it as , in fact , possible . They are talking bigger now .

All there know the whole package is better , but the announcer went out of the way to say that the accolade
for Seb was as much taken as a shot at Fred .

Any way , no worries .
We'll see how his awesome simulator feedback improves the car next weekend .

Both Alonso and McLaren have spoken of their belief that the Spaniard will be cleared to race, but the FIA will have the final say regarding his fitness.
The 33-year-old will head to Cambridge University on Sunday for the first test where he will be examined by three FIA-appointed doctors.
Should Alonso pass Sunday's test he will head to Malaysia where the remaining tests will be conducted. Once in Malaysia, medical delegate of the FIA, Jean-Charles Piette, will conduct reaction and cognitive tests and compare the results to readings from when Alonso had previously done the tests. Finally, Alonso will be checked out by a doctor at the Sepang International Circuit.
At least I took McLaren in FGB , and his friends, and our family at
"The Fighting Anglo Mafia" send our best wishes and prayers out to Fred. Get well soon champ! :angel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak3J5DayiCk

:angel:

jens

28th March 2015, 11:32

Yay, Vettel second, split the two Mercedes in the wet.:)

Doc Austin

28th March 2015, 17:32

Vettel needed a new challenge and he has clearly risen to it.

jens

29th March 2015, 10:46

Osella

29th March 2015, 11:07

Jens, that Minardi-Red Bull wasn't dominant, neither was that BMW he debuted in, or the 09/10 Red Bulls & nor is the Ferrari F-15T.
'Other' drivers could have been in that car today, instead it was a German winning in Ferrari #5. Poetic indeed..

Big Ben

30th March 2015, 09:49

YES! YES! YES!

:bounce: :hot:
Incredible! Fantastic!

Yes, yes, yes!

Vettel is back! Ferrari is back!

I know critics will be saying that Vettel is the luckiest bastard in the world to get his hands on dominant cars, and his achievements and wins mean nothing, while great drivers are mired in rubbish cars, but I don't care.:D

I've always enjoyed reading your posts because they were very well written and seemed quite objective but I feel now I've been fooled. I'm very surprised by this attitude.

jens

30th March 2015, 13:11

I've always enjoyed reading your posts because they were very well written and seemed quite objective but I feel now I've been fooled. I'm very surprised by this attitude.

Thanks.:)
Don't worry, it was in the heat of the moment.

Plus I have already been so used to someone adding "But" to anything Vettel does. Already after the Australian GP 3rd place celebration (a success in my view!) there were lots of "buts" in the discussion. It was a reaction after what happened in Australia, because I felt people were trying to take the joy out of the achievement.

2014 was an average year by all accounts. I am not going to argue anything there. It is a great comeback. No "ifs" and "buts". 2015 is not a winless season, even if it remains a solitary victory.:)

steveaki13

30th March 2015, 23:18

Can I just say

Where is Garry Walker when you need him. :D

anfield5

30th March 2015, 23:40

Can I just say

Where is Garry Walker when you need him. :D

Who is Garry Walker? Is he Murray Walkers brother :D

anfield5

30th March 2015, 23:42

It is really easy to say that Vettel ONLY won because Merc made a mistake, but I would say 'utter rubbish' both Mercs were on track, both Mercs finished and both Mercs were mechanically sound. Not Ferrari's fault that Merc's tactics were not the best. And Seb did overtake the silver things on track.

Possibly not Vettels greatest win, that was and always will be the Minardi win in Italy, but it was one of the most satisfying.

steveaki13

31st March 2015, 00:04

Who is Garry Walker? Is he Murray Walkers brother :D

Surely you remember Garry. He is the forums biggest Vettel fan :rolleyes: :dork:

CNR

31st March 2015, 00:31

jens

31st March 2015, 01:16

Can I just say

Where is Garry Walker when you need him. :D

I don't know, what Garry is up to and whether he still watches F1, but in the time of glory it is important to remember those, who are suffering as well.:) Garry, world may be tough and unfair, but you'll pull through and I guarantee you already the next race will be much better.:)

Warriwa

31st March 2015, 03:16

In a way I find it quite amusing that Vettel has got a personal "Fan" thread here on this forum.:p: I am unsure, what the initial motivations were, when this thread was created, but discussion has developed pretty nicely here over time!

There used to be a thread titled "Vettel and his personality". A moderator deemed it to be too 'negative' so they discontinued that discussion. There were also a lot of positive comments and some lively debates in that thread. If the moderators want to be consistent they should also close this thread for being too 'positive', or reopen the old thread.
Regardless if we agree with another's opinion, we should not censor an entire thread on a public forum.

kfzmeister

2nd April 2015, 04:48

Not sure that it has been mentioned, but if i were SEB, i'd be glad that i left RB when i did. For cryin outloud that ship is taking on water FAST!

The Black Knight

2nd April 2015, 08:57

Can't remember if I've ever even posted in this thread. I do like Seb - he's a good guy, but I think he has been either very smart or very lucky in his career choices. I'll never rate him as one of the greats, especially given the pasting he got from his teammate last year - the one year he actually had a chance to prove himself and he didn't. Now he has lucked into a Ferrari resurgence. Maybe he'll win a WDC with them but, I'm afraid the chance to prove himself as a great (last year and like Alonso did in 2012) has probably come and gone.

Big Ben

2nd April 2015, 11:38

jens

2nd April 2015, 12:02

Honestly I think he switched teams either because he wanted a change or because another season behind Ricciardo would have damaged his image even more. I would say a little bit of both. I have somehow doubts he foresaw the evolutions of both RBR or Ferrari. Did anyone really?

One thing is that Vettel wanted to drive Ferrari already a long time ago, it was his dream. So it was about timing the right moment. When you achieved already everything and even "more than enough" (which 4 WDCs is), and there is an opening in Ferrari (Alonso was on his way out), it was a perfect moment to switch.

As for insider knowledge of team competitiveness. Vettel saw that Red Bull (or more likely Renault) had lost ground with new regs and Newey was going to retire. It wasn't so much about RBR being as bad as now, but generally their golden days (4 consecutive titles) were over.

I don't really think he could have expected Ferrari to be that good already, but he signed with them on the back of a long-term plan. For 3-5 years and then let's see, what comes out of it. I think the first two races of 2015 have exceeded expectations. Generally - Ferrari is a legendary team and in a way pretty consistent - "thereabouts" all the time, even if not quite at the top. So it is not like Vettel was signing with a potential backmarker team. Signing for, say, McLaren-Honda would have contained far more risks. Because "McLaren-Honda" package contains more unknown factors, Ferrari has less unknowns.

We can remember, how Hamilton switched teams back in 2012. I am not sure he had clear evidence McLaren was going to drop back so spectacularly, but he must have been convinced that the Mercedes project is a good one long-term, regardless of what happens to McLaren.

As for Ricciardo. Everyone has to manage their careers as well as they can. If you can be a #1 driver in a legendary team, you'll go for it. Especially as Red Bull is/was "been there, done that". Had there been no Ricciardo and Vettel had beaten Webber yet again 2014, I think he would still have been looking for ways to exit Red Bull. Drivers want change.

Mind you, I would not rule out the possibility Ricciardo might become Vettel's team-mate again in the next few years, this time in Ferrari.:) Räikkönen is not going to stay around forever and Ricciardo is on my list among the next drivers, who could possibly start "looking for a change", especially if the RBR project doesn't work out any more.

Tazio

3rd April 2015, 16:33

"Jense" diss'ing Seb:

Jenson Button believes Sebastian Vettel is lucky to have found himself driving a more competitive Ferrari, suggesting Fernando Alonso would have achieved the same had he stayed.

Vettel, in only his second race with Ferrari, claimed victory in the Malaysian Grand Prix after comfortably out-performing Mercedes, marking the first time the Scuderia has won a race since the 2013 Spanish Grand Prix.

A historic success for Vettel, who has now notched up 40 F1 career wins, Button is more skeptical about the effect the driver itself had on returning Ferrari to success, saying 'sometimes things work out for you'.

“He has definitely lucked into a situation, I would say," Button told the Daily Mail.

“It is one of those situations which sometimes works out for you, for example [Daniel] Ricciardo was overtaken by his new team-mate [Kvyat], and lapped by his ex-team-mate on the same lap. Who would have thought that at the end of last year? So sometimes you do luck into a situation."
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSVy95UrPbA5mQY2dkSszR-wdFNoXL8jH4JFHa11LOjtihGyX2
JB can be a real cut-up! :angel:

The Black Knight

3rd April 2015, 21:31

"Jense" diss'ing Seb:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSVy95UrPbA5mQY2dkSszR-wdFNoXL8jH4JFHa11LOjtihGyX2
JB can be a real cut-up! :angel:

Which part of what he said is incorrect? It's true really. It's not like he had much input into the car design. I guess you make your own luck but between RBR and Ferrari now, Seb certainly has had a lot of it! Not take anything away from him, he took the decisions that benefited him at the right time as all top drivers must do but, as we saw last year, unless the car suits him, he certainly isn't capable of driving around things. He was lucky in this decision, yes, but he was also smart I guess :)

airshifter

3rd April 2015, 22:34

jens

4th April 2015, 08:33

Well after winning 4 consecutive WDCs, even if in a great car, I would hardly call it luck. Granted he did get beat by Ricciardo the following year, but often WDCs are won in cars where both drivers finish at the pointy end of the pack. Similar to Rubens finishing in 3rd when Jenson got his title in 2009.

Not to take anything from either driver, but Jenson saying this after going from a what.... 16th place finish in the 2008 Honda and then walking into the most dominant car in recent history. Well that's some :laugh: stuff Jenson!

Sure Jenson is talking from his own experience, since he must have been as surprised as anybody to get a car as fantastic as the 2009 Brawn out of nowhere.

This is not dissing anybody, just that life is what it is.:)

I don't think Button is dissing Vettel either. He is just telling how he understand the situation, when microphone was put in front of him. People just read too much into driver's comments. I think real "dissing" takes place on Internet forums, not among drivers.:)

But on the forums people go like "omg he said that, now it is WAR!" In the end the real war is fought among fanboys...

CNR

4th April 2015, 15:09

t is not as if a team can brainwash a driver when he leaves the team setup data and whatnot

driveace

5th April 2015, 13:41

Well I think Vettel can manage the tyres better.
As if the Mercedes had not had to pit 3 times against Vettel,s twice,then the race could have been different and maybe seen a different result

Doc Austin

5th April 2015, 18:06

I admired the way Vettel won his first and third championships because he had to fight like hell the whole way. His other two were really good, if not a bit too easy. Still, two hard fought championships that went to the last lap of the season is enough to make anyone a great.

When you consider Gilles Villeneuve won six grands prix and no championships, yet is on almost everyone's top 10 list, you have to wonder why so many people want to discredit what Vettel has done.

People can make all kinds of excuses why Vettel won in the Ferrari while in the last year the God-like Alonso could not, but the fact remains that Vettel has won not only in the Red Bull, the Ferrari, and unbelievably, a Torro Rosso! Were all three of those the best cars on the grid at the time?

After all of the years of Senna and Prost trying to pinch each other into the pit wall and succeeding to determine the championship twice by crashing into each other on purpose, not to mention the Schumacher years of constant, non stop chopping, blocking, swerving and assailing compeditors "deliberately, but instinctually," one might think fans would be happy to have a champion in Vettel who races fair, clean and wins well.

Vettel is a rare talent, perhaps the best of his generation. When you consider his success has been against people like Alonso and Hamilton, Kimmi and Button, it's not like he did not have anyone good to beat.

It simply baffles me why some people just can't bring themselves to see Vettel is a great champion. You don't have to like him, but there is no denying his success or his talent and determination. Last season would have completely broken most drivers, but instead Vettel is only three points behind the leading Mercedes and ahead of the other one!

I can't believe you people have me cheering for a damm Ferrari now!

Tazio

6th April 2015, 00:50

I can't believe they have me cheering for a dog-blasted McLaren. :rolleyes: ;)

journeyman racer

6th April 2015, 02:22

zako85

6th April 2015, 12:03

I admired the way Vettel won his first and third championships because he had to fight like hell the whole way. His other two were really good, if not a bit too easy. Still, two hard fought championships that went to the last lap of the season is enough to make anyone a great.

*snip*

Doc Austin, great post. I couldn't have said it better myself. And it's great that you bring the list of the major scandals, such as cheating allegations or championship deciding wrecks, that should have tainted the careers of some of the "greats" in F1 racing (but somehow have not, since we still call them greats..). On the other hand, Vettel was able to win pretty cleanly even the closely contested championships, like in 2010 and 2012, without championship deciding crashes, or other antics.

In my opinion, right now there are only two blemishes on Vettel's otherwise great racing career. First is the constant allegation that we were not treated to a good intra-team battle between Vettel and someone else. Some people argue that Webber was past his peak after 2010 and could not have responded to Vettel adequately. Others say, that Webber was simply crippled and beaten into submission by the team. Whichever is the case, the fact remains that Vettel had little competition from his teammate, while Prost and Senna had to breath down each other's necks many times in the race. The second is the bizarre 2014 season, which still needs some explaining. But then again, look at one of the other "greats" of our time, Hamilton. Didn't he lose to Button in 2011? There was no explanation from Lewis about that either.

All in all, these are two relatively small blemishes on an otherwise pretty fine record record so far.

Big Ben

6th April 2015, 12:49

Maybe some championships were fought to the very last race because the driver in the dominant car was not that dominant himself.

zako85

6th April 2015, 14:10

Maybe some championships were fought to the very last race because the driver in the dominant car was not that dominant himself.

Or may be the opposite was true? Perhaps Vettel pushed the car above and beyond its capabilities in 2010 and 2012 if you happen to judge the car performance by what Webber did with it? People who argued that Alonso drove his Ferraris beyond what they were meant to do often insisted on using as Massa's results as the yardstick of where Ferrari should have really finished. Why can't this same argument be applied to Vettel in order to explain how Vettel drove his RBR car so that he extracted the impossible 110% of its possible performance?

I think this argument will never end. One side will say that the glass is half full, the other will say that the glass is half empty.

But if you say that the glass is half empty, why stop at Vettel? Let's also throw Button under the bus, as well as Mansell, with his Newey designed 1992 car, at least a couple of Schumacher's titles, Prost's 1993 title, and who knows what else.

zako85

6th April 2015, 14:21

Interesting that Doc rates Vettel's 12 c'ship win, and hadn't mentioned 11. I on the other hand, don't rate 12 at all. To me, 12 is purely a reflection of the superiority of the RB, and emphasise to me that the season is too long. I rate 11 as his best win. Because he had the best car, and he drove accordingly. This was reflected in a dominant season. 10, and 12 in particular, are seasons which highlight the overall superiority of Alonso, despite not winning those titles.

I admit that it certainly MAY have been possible that Vettel's RBR was a better car than Alonso's Ferrari, but only in the second half of season, when the teams had figured out how to use the 2012 spec tires. However, towards the end of year, it was also pretty obvious that McLaren was the superior car at the end of season. Fernando and Seb were fighting for something like third and second place at best most of the time.

jens

6th April 2015, 15:13

Oh, we are going through this again.:p:

Admittedly 2010 wasn't a very strong season by Vettel, it contained a number of mistakes and he was still green as a driver. However, it was a weird year in which all title contenders made mistakes and this somewhat balanced the game. Plus Vettel had reliability issues and lost about 3 wins that year, which made the points closer.

2012 was a better season for Vettel, especially the second half of the year. Perhaps Alonso was slightly more impressive overall, but I was pretty satisfied with Vettel's performance that year. He also had to come back twice from the back of the field (Abu Dhabi, Brazil), so it is not like title was handed to him on a silver platter - he had to fight for it, at times even against odds. Also 2012 was the year in which driving standards were very high, certainly more-so than 2010. In 2012 also Hamilton had an excellent year, but now it was his turn to lose something like 3-4 race wins with reliability issues.

Big Ben

6th April 2015, 16:10

Or may be the opposite was true? Perhaps Vettel pushed the car above and beyond its capabilities in 2010 and 2012 if you happen to judge the car performance by what Webber did with it? People who argued that Alonso drove his Ferraris beyond what they were meant to do often insisted on using as Massa's results as the yardstick of where Ferrari should have really finished. Why can't this same argument be applied to Vettel in order to explain how Vettel drove his RBR car so that he extracted the impossible 110% of its possible performance?

First of all, I'm not one of those saying Alonso drove 110% out of any car. In fact, I'm really annoyed by this giving 110% crap generally speaking, so I would never use it. No one's ever driven even 100% of any car so let's just give that a break.

Neither did I see Massa's performance as a yardstick in any way. I've always thought Alonso is much better than Massa so I don't see how Alonso's performance could be evaluated using Massa's as a yardstick (of course, had Alonso finished behind Massa any season then Massa would have been a great yardstick for a sub-par performance).

I didn't rate Webber that high either so I don't see Vettel barely beating him in 2010 as a great performance. If anything I see those years he won the championship easily as him getting closer to his full potential.

Tazio

6th April 2015, 21:50

Just so everyone waiting to bash me can, I rate the most complete drivers currently

1. Alonso - A fair bit clear of the rest in my opinion
2. Hamilton - He is fast in a good car out front, but also battles hard. Not near Alonso, but still second
3. Vettel - He is fast and has a good way of getting the team around him, like Schumi. He cannot outperform a car like Alonso, but I think he is 3rd best.

For those about to tell me Ricciardo is better cause of this season, I will stop you now. 4 titles won and in the bag and some are ready to say Ricciardo is better. Thats laughable really. He is better this season, or in this car, but he didn't win a race in a Toro Rosso and finish top 5 5 or 6 times and hasn't won 30 odd races and 4 titles.

out of interest

4. Raikkonen - easy to mock him, but last season he was winning races
5. Ricciardo - Moved up some places in my eyes this year.
6. Rosberg - After Nico it becomes less clear.

There was no intention on my part to bash anyone, even if we might differ in opinion, which is really at it is.

For the most part I agree with your top six, but right now where Vettel and Kimi fall is somewhat up in the air. I'll be the first to admit I didn't hate Rosberg as well as he has driven early on, but he has proven to be more well rounded than I expected the first year or two. Alonso without doubt is at the top. Kimi is regaining form but still being soundly beaten by Fred, but that is almost expected. Lewis is super fast, but sometimes lets people/things screw with his mental game. On a side on that, I still have hope Lewis will beat Nico this year and overcome his car failures. It may take a little luck as well as his driving skill, but it's still possible.

Right now the Ricciardo/Vettel placements are sort of up in the air. Maybe this car is just more suited to Daniel, but Webber was never really a good gauge IMO for where Vettel was placing. Or maybe it's possible that Daniel is just better, but it will take some time to determine that and see if the current trend continues.

But in any case, unless it's an obvious crazy fanboi with blinders on perspective, I have no intention of bashing anyone if we differ in opinion.
And I wasn't trying to suggest anything, other than throw a little anarchy into the thread, ;)

I realize how hard it is to put relative values on drivers, and I never thought that JB was disrespecting Seb. I just wanted to stir the pot a little.

I think Steve and Air' make good points in these posts I've quoted

Two seasons ago NH was considered by many to be in the top 3, and I certainly wouldn't argue against it at the time, but last season like Seb he didn't seem to adapt well to the new reg's, And now Hulk is just driving a total piece of junk.

There are only two ways to get a really objective comparison of all drivers; make all the cars identical, or have the drivers rotate which cars they drive, so everyone will have had an equal chance to drive every car. Neither is going to happen, and even if the latter did it may only prove who is the most adaptable.

I'm pretty sure that the all of these guys could have won the championship in last years Mercedes, and that is not a knock on Hamilton, because he did have to overcome some serious adversity to beat his teammate last year.
I think what it comes down to is; how much do you enjoy F1?

If you want to be entertained by a much more equitable sport watch track, and field.
Myself I'm just going to watch and enjoy, this is shaping up to be a very interesting season.

BTW I think JB is NR's equal, but that is just like all the rest of this, speculation. :)

journeyman racer

7th April 2015, 15:14

Or may be the opposite was true?
Nope.

Perhaps Vettel pushed the car above and beyond its capabilities in 2010 and 2012
It's impossible to push a car beyond it's capabilities. Physics dictates it can't be so.

But if you say that the glass is half empty, why stop at Vettel? Let's also throw Button under the bus, as well as Mansell, with his Newey designed 1992 car, at least a couple of Schumacher's titles, Prost's 1993 title, and who knows what else.
While the Brawn had the dominant car, Button was comprehensive in the first half of 09. Mansell's career deserved a title under any circumstance. He had the single most dominant season in F1. He got the most out of it, so his season/career is valid. Prost in 93 doesn't matter since he was an all time great after winning one title.

Schumacher? Well, that a whole other thread...

I admit that it certainly MAY have been possible that Vettel's RBR was a better car than Alonso's Ferrari, but only in the second half of season,
Not "MAY have" (attempting to put doubt in one's mind). "Definitely", for the whole season.

jens

7th April 2015, 16:19

I feel that people are lumping some things together here. And discussion has lost sight on what "dominance" means. Why are we talking about 2012 in the context of 1992, 2014 or also 2013? If you remember, then we had 7 (!) different winners in the first 7 races of 2012. Yes, 7, among them Maldonado! I mean that season was nowhere near 1992 or 2014 or 2002 or the second half of 2013, when in almost every single race the dominant team disappeared into the distance with both cars.

Red Bull emerged above others only in the last third of the season for a handful of races. Other than that 2012 was one of the most closely contested seasons for many years. Even Lotus, Williams and Sauber were fighting for race wins.

driveace

8th April 2015, 12:15

I agree that Seb is a force to be reckoned with ,
But he was also in a dominant car too
The car was deemed illegal on about 6 events ,and most were corrected without being brought to out attention .Adrian Newey is a master at "Tricks" ,some he got away with for quite a while others were found out quite quickly .
So yes Seb is quick and a good clean racer ,and good with tyres too ,probably he uses less downforce on his car so he can look after his tyres more

zako85

8th April 2015, 13:28

Not "MAY have" (attempting to put doubt in one's mind). "Definitely", for the whole season.

No way in 2012. Let's look at the facts.

1. Vettel won only five out of twenty races in the whole 2012 season, and both Red Bulls won seven out of twenty. Does this strike you as a truly dominant car, specially through the whole season?

2. The first seven races were won by seven different drivers. Moreover, Vettel hasn't won his second race of season until the race 14 of season. By then Alonso had racked up three wins. Vettel didn't get his third win until the fifteenth round.

3. The last two races were won by McLarens in a fairly dominant fashion. People were starting to argue that McLaren was the fastest car at the end of year.

4. McLarens won seven races in the season, the same number as Red Bulls.

These points make it pretty obvious that Red Bull was not the most dominant car of the season for sure. We can allow the possibility that Red Bull had gotten better than Ferrari towards the end of season only, as Vettel's Red Bull hasn't caught up with Alonso's Ferrari until the last one quart of the season.

kfzmeister

9th April 2015, 02:47

I think ALO is the best current driver and i will defend my position til the end!

journeyman racer

9th April 2015, 14:07

No way in 2012. Let's look at the facts.

1. Vettel won only five out of twenty races in the whole 2012 season, and both Red Bulls won seven out of twenty. Does this strike you as a truly dominant car, specially through the whole season?

2. The first seven races were won by seven different drivers. Moreover, Vettel hasn't won his second race of season until the race 14 of season. By then Alonso had racked up three wins. Vettel didn't get his third win until the fifteenth round.

3. The last two races were won by McLarens in a fairly dominant fashion. People were starting to argue that McLaren was the fastest car at the end of year.

4. McLarens won seven races in the season, the same number as Red Bulls.

These points make it pretty obvious that Red Bull was not the most dominant car of the season for sure. We can allow the possibility that Red Bull had gotten better than Ferrari towards the end of season only, as Vettel's Red Bull hasn't caught up with Alonso's Ferrari until the last one quart of the season.

This post is a classic case of having a prejudiced opinion, then skewing what happened to suit that view.

The rules, particularly regarding the use of tyres in 12 and 13, were primarily designed to knobble the RB. The way the tech regs have evolved over the last 10-20 years, has often meant the greatest determining factor on performance has been aero. Which has been the strength of the RB throughout 10-13. The rules are so tight, that it's hard to overcome a deficiency of performance, particularly a black art like aero. Even over a few years.

It worked in the first half of 12. But once RB overcame this obstacle strategically, Vettel/RB won four on the trot. The season was too long for Ferrari, and was too much for Alonso to overcome his disadvantages.

In 13, the rules went even further, where Pirelli were asked to produce tyres that actually ****** up. But once RB successfully sooked to get the rules their own way, by producing harder tyres and not allowing the rotation of them (Which MB were doing to good effect), status quo resumed. The fundamental advantage RB had in aero came to effect and Vettel won 9 on the trot. The cars from 10-13 were in effect the same. RB always had that advantage, even if the degree varied slightly.

I don't understand how anyone can fail to see this.

jens

9th April 2015, 17:10

This post is a classic case of having a prejudiced opinion, then skewing what happened to suit that view.

The rules, particularly regarding the use of tyres in 12 and 13, were primarily designed to knobble the RB. The way the tech regs have evolved over the last 10-20 years, has often meant the greatest determining factor on performance has been aero. Which has been the strength of the RB throughout 10-13. The rules are so tight, that it's hard to overcome a deficiency of performance, particularly a black art like aero. Even over a few years.

It worked in the first half of 12. But once RB overcame this obstacle strategically, Vettel/RB won four on the trot. The season was too long for Ferrari, and was too much for Alonso to overcome his disadvantages.

In 13, the rules went even further, where Pirelli were asked to produce tyres that actually ****** up. But once RB successfully sooked to get the rules their own way, by producing harder tyres and not allowing the rotation of them (Which MB were doing to good effect), status quo resumed. The fundamental advantage RB had in aero came to effect and Vettel won 9 on the trot. The cars from 10-13 were in effect the same. RB always had that advantage, even if the degree varied slightly.

I don't understand how anyone can fail to see this.

I can see, what you are trying to say, but I'd look at it from a wider angle.

Aerodynamics is only part of the package. I mean, yes, definitely Red Bull had the best aerodynamics throughout the era. But if the car was bad at managing tyres, it doesn't mean it was the best car in a given weekend. Just a random example - if a car has the most powerful engine, it doesn't mean it is overall the best car if it has rubbish aerodynamics. It is all part of the package.

In late 2012 there were only three race weekends in which Red Bull genuinely performed above others - Japan, Korea, India. Other than that it was a close year all around. Vettel was battling with McLarens in Singapore and won after Hamilton's DNF. Just two weekends before that McLaren was dominating the Belgian and Italian Grands Prix. Only Pérez with his inspired tyre strategy got close in the race.

In terms of speed it was overall very close between the packages of McLaren and Red Bull in 2012, tyres, aerodynamics, or whatnot. McLaren's problem was that they were let down by race operations and reliability, that's why they ended nowhere near titles.

jens

9th April 2015, 17:23

Quick re-cap of 2012.

There were only 3 race weekends, where Red Bull was genuinely above others (JPN, KOR, IND). Plus Valencia, where Vettel retired with a car problem, which made it academic. Vettel also won Bahrain, but it wasn't a domination, but a close fight with Lotus.

There were also weekends in which McLaren dominated (Australia, Italy, Belgium). Hamilton also won Hungary, this time after a close fight with Lotus again. Hamilton took pole in Abu Dhabi, but retired. Räikkönen won. Hamilton and Vettel had a straight fight in USA. McLaren locked out front row in Brazil and proceeded to compete for the win with Hülkenberg.

There were also races in which Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel - all three together - were fighting for a win. Like Canada. Germany was the same, but replace Hamilton with Button.

Webber won at Monaco, but it was a straight fight with Mercedes. Schumacher was on pole, but penalized. Webber won in UK, but it was a straight fight with Ferrari once Alonso got its final stint tyre strategy gamble wrong. Ferrari was genuinely fast that weekend, Massa finished fourth not far behind.

You can talk about aerodynamics and tyres, how you like, but the balance of powers was swinging around all year.

Each race was different, each scenario was different. That's what made the season incredible, truly incredible! You even had Grosjean, Pérez, Maldonado, Räikkönen, Hülkenberg, Rosberg, Schumacher going for odd race wins in different weekends. But somebody is trying to tell us it was a boring Red Bull wipe-out.

Tazio

9th April 2015, 22:55

2012 was an interesting season, and if Felipe would have driven in the first half of it as he did in the second half Ferrari could very well have won the WCC.

journeyman racer

10th April 2015, 16:21

I can see, what you are trying to say, but I'd look at it from a wider angle.

Aerodynamics is only part of the package. I mean, yes, definitely Red Bull had the best aerodynamics throughout the era. But if the car was bad at managing tyres, it doesn't mean it was the best car in a given weekend. Just a random example - if a car has the most powerful engine, it doesn't mean it is overall the best car if it has rubbish aerodynamics. It is all part of the package.

In late 2012 there were only three race weekends in which Red Bull genuinely performed above others - Japan, Korea, India. Other than that it was a close year all around. Vettel was battling with McLarens in Singapore and won after Hamilton's DNF. Just two weekends before that McLaren was dominating the Belgian and Italian Grands Prix. Only Pérez with his inspired tyre strategy got close in the race.

In terms of speed it was overall very close between the packages of McLaren and Red Bull in 2012, tyres, aerodynamics, or whatnot. McLaren's problem was that they were let down by race operations and reliability, that's why they ended nowhere near titles.

Quick re-cap of 2012.

There were only 3 race weekends, where Red Bull was genuinely above others (JPN, KOR, IND). Plus Valencia, where Vettel retired with a car problem, which made it academic. Vettel also won Bahrain, but it wasn't a domination, but a close fight with Lotus.

There were also weekends in which McLaren dominated (Australia, Italy, Belgium). Hamilton also won Hungary, this time after a close fight with Lotus again. Hamilton took pole in Abu Dhabi, but retired. Räikkönen won. Hamilton and Vettel had a straight fight in USA. McLaren locked out front row in Brazil and proceeded to compete for the win with Hülkenberg.

There were also races in which Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel - all three together - were fighting for a win. Like Canada. Germany was the same, but replace Hamilton with Button.

Webber won at Monaco, but it was a straight fight with Mercedes. Schumacher was on pole, but penalized. Webber won in UK, but it was a straight fight with Ferrari once Alonso got its final stint tyre strategy gamble wrong. Ferrari was genuinely fast that weekend, Massa finished fourth not far behind.

You can talk about aerodynamics and tyres, how you like, but the balance of powers was swinging around all year.

Each race was different, each scenario was different. That's what made the season incredible, truly incredible! You even had Grosjean, Pérez, Maldonado, Räikkönen, Hülkenberg, Rosberg, Schumacher going for odd race wins in different weekends. But somebody is trying to tell us it was a boring Red Bull wipe-out.

You can go all day about specific moments to enhance your views, and further validate Vettel. I'm not going to spend my time having to justifying why certain drivers/cars were quicker/better at specific races or practice sessions. The FIA introduced some variables which worked. Even though it affected the integrity of F1 as a motorsport competition . You can give me specific circumstances, but they're meaningless.

Overall, the RB was the best car throughout 10-13 seasons. It may've had some relative weaknesses, but relative weaknesses is all they were. You could point at the Renault and say it wasn't the most powerful engine, therefore the RB couldn't have been the best car. It was using the same tyres as the other. The rules are so tight you couldn't experiment strategically with them. Aero provides the greatest degree of performance, and only weight distribution has any meaningful effect

With the same tyres and a lower powered engine, it still set a lot more poles, won a lot more races than anybody else! Along with winning both driver's and constructor's c'ship for each of those 4 seasons! Yet you're going to give me specific moments when the car wasn't comprehensively dominating?

I mean, come on, please, spare me..

jens

10th April 2015, 23:46

I don't think anyone is arguing that over the whole of 2010-2013 Red Bull was the best car.

However, when we are going into the specifics of 2012, do you really disagree McLaren wasn't as fast as Red Bull? I mean we are not talking about the exception of one or two races, where Red Bull was struggling. We are talking about average performance over a whole year. And there were lots of races, where McLaren was really fast. Not just 1 or 2 races.

I can understand the argument about 2013, when there were about 2-3-4 races, where Ferrari was above Red Bull due to superior tyre management early in the season. But over a full year they were nowhere near Red Bull, who pulled a big gap in the second half of the season. Now this is exactly, what you are talking about.

zako85

11th April 2015, 14:39

This post is a classic case of having a prejudiced opinion, then skewing what happened to suit that view.

The rules, particularly regarding the use of tyres in 12 and 13, were primarily designed to knobble the RB. The way the tech regs have evolved over the last 10-20 years, has often meant the greatest determining factor on performance has been aero. Which has been the strength of the RB throughout 10-13. The rules are so tight, that it's hard to overcome a deficiency of performance, particularly a black art like aero. Even over a few years.

It worked in the first half of 12. But once RB overcame this obstacle strategically, Vettel/RB won four on the trot. The season was too long for Ferrari, and was too much for Alonso to overcome his disadvantages.

Even your own comments contradict yourself. Go back to my post you were replying to and see the first sentence. What I was saying is that the RBR car certainly did not dominate over Ferrari the whole of 2012 season, as the poster I was replying to said. In the first half of 2012, while all the teams were struggling to figure out how to the tires worked, RBR did not seem to have any advantage. Things got so weird that even Williams and Sauber had a fair shot at winning a race.

So I don't see how anything you have written exposes me as being biased. And by the way, since when winning four races in a row (in a season with 20 races), somehow proves that Red Bull was either the dominant car overall or just dominant over Ferrari the WHOLE SEASON? Moreover, you still fail to see that even though Vettel had four wins in the second half of season, both McLaren cars combined had five wins in the second half of season, and in fact if Hamilton's McLaren did not have a gear box failure while he was leading the race in Singapore, the McLaren would have claimed six race wins in the last 10 races of the season to Red Bulls 3. So all these FACTS about the 2012 season make me really doubtful about the Red Bull dominance in that season. At best, Red Bull clearly dominated Ferrari here and there in the second half of the season, but at the same time McLarens frequently showed amazing performance as well. When I think about why Vettel won in 2012, I think not only about his and RBR's work, but I also recall how many times the other teams screwed up or had a very bad luck. McLaren had an amazingly fast car, but they screwed up the pit work, strategy or reliability so many times that Hamilton dumped this teams after working for so many years with them.

journeyman racer

12th April 2015, 01:17

Either of you tell me where McLaren made their gains in 12? What rules changed so that McLaren increased their performance relative to RB?

They had a more powerful engine. But they had that previously, and were clearly inferior to the RB. They're using the same tyres. An already more powerful engine and the same wheels/tyres. The two fundamental components on a car to require it to move (aero isn't a necessary component). The two fundamental components on a car to be classified as a car.

The RB strength was their aero. The tyre rules in 12 were designed to hinder RB. With softer tyres, as an outsider, it's plausible to say RB turned up the downforce a bit more, and this gave McLaren the sporting chance. It's possible. Are you blokes saying McLaren improved their aero in 12?

Since aero is a such a black art. You can't just replicate another competitor and get the same results. Whatever gain you make, you keep. So how did McLaren go from supposedly being the best/fastest car in 12, to flopping in 13?

You tell me.

dj_bytedisaster

12th April 2015, 01:34

So how did McLaren go from supposedly being the best/fastest car in 12, to flopping in 13?

You tell me.

Very simple. While everyone built his 2013 car as an evolution of their 2012 car, because it was the last year of the 'old rules', McLaren scrapped the design and started from scratch. And they mucked it up spectacularly.

jens

12th April 2015, 02:41

2012 saw the ban of EBD - Exhaust Blown Diffuser. So there was a regulation change. At the start of the season it was a big talking point. It took the edge away from Red Bull, who all of a sudden qualified only 5th and 6th in Australia season opener.

As for McLaren - they were already pretty good in 2011. Not quite a match to Red Bull, but still good, clear second. Remember, Button got lots of second place race finishes that year, ahead of Webber. So it is not like McLaren's aerodynamics sucked at the time, they were a good team. Then when Red Bull struggled to adapt to 2012 EBD ban, McLaren capitalized, and designed a car as fast or faster depending on circuit and circumstances.

Red Bull somewhat overcame this temporary loss of aerodynamic performance only late in the 2012 season, when Vettel got his string of wins. And Red Bull further perfected their design for the 2013 season, when they were aerodynamically clearly superior again.

As for the sudden drop of McLaren's performance in 2013. Probably to do with loss of key personnel - chief designer Paddy Lowe left in mid 2012. You can also ask, why did Williams suck so heavily in 2013 after a genuinely strong 2012. Or what about Sauber, who got lots of podiums in 2012.

Each season is different, so are team performances. Depending on the depth of the team and how can they adapt to new season regulations. Or even if there are no big regulation changes, performances can still shift around. Look at Red Bull. Recently praised for their chassis superiority, can now barely beat Toro Rosso! So changes, even big changes in performance quality, do happen, if teams themselves change (designers, engineers, etc).