The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017

[Hartusvuori]

VW today in Finland with the 2017 spec Polo WRC. Marcus behind the wheel.

https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC/status/636137268823097344

[Andre Oliveira]

Volkswagen allways on front of others :/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQG5UwWcAAQZAQ.jpg

[Mirek]

It looks very ugly for me.

[itix]

I'm not a gigantic fan either... but I wasn't really a big fan of the original polo R so...
Maybe it will look better in final spec.

(And Per, nah I work on a seismic research vessel... Still offshore but worldwide (and usually super remote locations that nobody has ever heard of)).

[Eli]

Volkswagen allways on front of others :/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQG5UwWcAAQZAQ.jpg

looks like a RX version on a diet..

[Jack4688`]

VW Testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPuLquedT4c


VW today in Finland with the 2017 spec Polo WRC. Marcus behind the wheel.

https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC/status/636137268823097344

Oh wow what a total revolution it's like Group B re-imagined for the 21st century, praise the FIA and World Rally Commission for coming up with something so radical :|

[janvanvurpa]

C'mon guys, PM is for private conversations.


Sorry! momentarily slipped my mind that this thread is about the detailed, carefully measure , contrast and compare tall the mechanical parts of a old 2016 WRC car and the totally new one which will save rally and change everything..changes in the general level of literacy, increasing passive cultures, greed and fear could have nothing to do with anything...


So, where were we: OK What did somebody say the exact suspension travel front and rear was on the gravel set up? And that is how much different from the outdated old slow 2016 car?

[janvanvurpa]

VW today in Finland with the 2017 spec Polo WRC. Marcus behind the wheel.

https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC/status/636137268823097344


Being chastised by cali I will keep the discussion and questions on highly technical aspects:

Eeeeewwwwww black wheels suck!
Somebody tell the 22 year olds in VW promo department that black wheels was a played out fad years ago and look STOOOPID..

So much faster with white wheels.

[HaCo]

It reminds me a bit of an Audi S1 with the front lip and the very wide arches. Good looking or not, it is the future of WRC.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNRZ2sLWsAAkxnL.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQjDnzWEAAxtXE.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQjEbNWsAE4BFW.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQjFdVWoAEQhd8.jpg

[dimviii]

new video
https://youtu.be/uQ9kPm3Gp14

[dimviii]

and another one
https://youtu.be/whJohrNmlV8

[dimviii]

Again Gronholm drives,Latvala spectates
https://youtu.be/A1_d4zDd-7c

[makinen_fan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNQjDnzWEAAxtXE.jpg

[Mariusz]

There are almost no differences for me when I look at Yaris
a picture of Toyota Yaris WRC (http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2432/9459/original.jpg)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNRZ2sLWsAAkxnL.png:large

Cant see changes like this doing anything for the future of the WRC. No-one but existing rally fans will notice the difference.

[janvanvurpa]

Sorry for OT.

No it´s only comics at it´s best. Don´t know if you are familiar with our dear friend John from Seattle (I guess). Talking to him on this forum often comes out with some swedish sentences in the end. No need to be translated to english and I think our norweigan and finnish readers do understand... :)

Working in the North sea?

Well through the long history of this sport three nations have been consistently dominant:
Finland
Sweden
France

Nobody can really read Finnish and if you could it is all just drunken swearing anyway and all the Finns here have proudly agreed that is true, so no point in learning much of that..

Swedish and French should therefore have special status above all others..and should be at the top of the list of approved languages to speak/write about rally

Now in last years, thanks to God for burying all those dinosaurs millions of years ago off the Norwegian coast, and then turning them into oil, little Norway has has surprised the world and taken a place on the stage of VW rally...so we all should at least learn to read ny norsk...

One day when we can all argue the meaning of which country has the most--or most drivers--who have won WRC events (or the more interesting have done say 1st thru 6th) and we see platoons of English, Aussies, Ned-Zedders, maybe a Canadian or 2,
then we can rightfully say English should be on the podium as well.
And have rightfully earned status as co-equal.

After all, isn't some of the fun of traveling to do our sport learning new things like regional dialects?

[AL14]

I see no difference. Yes it is larger but it doesn't seems more spectacular. Actually it seems less.. but well it's just a couple of spots and aero are not ready yet.
I see no difference also in actual domination since these guys are already testing the new cars and others are in vacancy.

[Mariusz]

But this way VW just got some media attention that they are like ahead of others, but in reality they don't have anything yet. I'd say that aero changes aren't something that should be road tested as the first thing. This could be easily done in their closed facilities.

[Rally Power]

What a beast. It can be ugly but it's fu..ing fast! It'll be hard to wait until 2017...https://youtu.be/whJohrNmlV8

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

I don't like the front lip

[Doon]

What a beast. It can be ugly but it's fu..ing fast! It'll be hard to wait until 2017...https://youtu.be/whJohrNmlV8

Really? It looks slower than the current cars. Although its probably because Gronholm is driving, not Ogier lol

[stefanvv]

Again Gronholm drives,Latvala spectates
https://youtu.be/A1_d4zDd-7c

Does the engine hits the limiter on gear shift?!?

[Jack4688`]

There are almost no differences for me when I look at Yaris
a picture of Toyota Yaris WRC (http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2432/9459/original.jpg)

That's the same car they've been testing with for ages, why should it look different?

[pantealex]

"In nature that "new" Polo sounded much better than current one" a message from well known racedriver who was spectating yesterday in Jämsä

[Doon]

"In nature that "new" Polo sounded much better than current one" a message from well known racedriver who was spectating yesterday in Jämsä

Again, really? How has it changed engine / exhaust wise? I'd be surprised if that wasn't just an aero package test, surely they haven't developed a new engine yet. Are the technical specifications and regulations for the engine even finalised?

[dimviii]

Really? It looks slower than the current cars. Although its probably because Gronholm is driving, not Ogier lol

+1 Gronholm drives it slow.
sound wise,i had this feeling too,but i watched videos from current car from Finland and couldnt find any differene at least from videos.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNUJ8-cWIAAwBLJ.jpg

[Simmi]

New car doesn't exactly get the juices flowing - but at the same time it's naive to think this is going to be the exact look of the car when it rolls out in 2017. It's just an interim aero package - albeit very impressive from VW to get this in place.

Likes others have said I was trying to listen to the sound. Always quite misleading on videos but I doubt there's anything new under the bonnet? Might be wrong though. To me getting the sound right is as important as the visuals. It should sound like violence and thunder, with a few flames to add the lightning.

[Hartusvuori]

AFAIK the engine had some extra power compared to the current spec. No details though. This must be very early phase however, first time 2017 car test videos and pictures surfaced.

[maciotacio]

Are the technical specifications and regulations for the engine even finalised?

Malcolm Wilson said in Germany, that from engine or mechanical point of view it's quite clear what you can or can't do. The main changes are bigger restictor and central diff.
But from aero site, there are still some question marks. So is's better to start testing mechanical parts, such as engine and diffs and when the regulations are clear start testing aero package.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNWQ4shWwAAx83V.png

[EstWRC]

doesnt look any different from the current car at his angle

[Mariusz]

That's the same car they've been testing with for ages, why should it look different?
What I meant was that the 2015 Yaris and the 2017 Polo look so similar in white and before I saw the front VW sign I was thinking that it was some Toyota testing.

[Jack4688`]

Ah I see what you mean, good point. That's exactly what they think they're eliminating with the rule changes but it's not working :|

[Lundefaret]

Oh wow what a total revolution it's like Group B re-imagined for the 21st century, praise the FIA and World Rally Commission for coming up with something so radical :|

This will truly change our sport, and bring in hordes of new fans from every country, gender, demographic and so on :)

I wonder how many man hours has been spent, how many people has been involved, how many meals have been had, how many air plane tickets and hotel rooms have been paid, how many meetings have been arranged to come up with that? Just wonder..

[Rally Power]

Again, really? How has it changed engine / exhaust wise? I'd be surprised if that wasn't just an aero package test, surely they haven't developed a new engine yet. Are the technical specifications and regulations for the engine even finalised?

No doubt they're already using the 36mm restrictor, which is the only engine change allowed by 2017 regs.

[Rally Power]

I wonder how many man hours has been spent, how many people has been involved, how many meals have been had, how many air plane tickets and hotel rooms have been paid, how many meetings have been arranged to come up with that? Just wonder..

Frankly even if we found the actual technical base inadequate, the proposed reg path is a clever one: they're just developing the existing technical concept in a budget friendly way. With the exception of the active central diff, the new regs will make the cars faster with superficial adjustments, avoiding major investments (like would be the case if hybrid systems were implement). WRC 1.6T is there since 2011, so the expected life of 9 years (till 2019) is a normal one, regarding WRC 2.0T (14 years), gr. A (10 years) and Gr.2/4 (10 years) as previous top WRC categories (Gr. B was the abnormal exception, during only 4 years). And this time it seems it was easy to reach a fast agreement between the FIA and the manufacturers (replacing WRC 2.0T took 2 and a half years!), so flight and hotel bills were probably low...

[Jack4688`]

...the proposed reg path is a clever one: they're just developing the existing technical concept in a budget friendly way...

That's true and it's been on the cards for quite a while. What they're doing wrong is, yet again, the promotional side of things. It's been billed as the best thing since Group B which, depending on opinion, could be true but it's not bonkers like they're making out. Being labelled as something it's not is what irks me.

If the press release said something like: "The new for 2017 regulations will be an evolution of the current rules that have been in place since 2011. Early in discussions with the manufacturers it was clear that controlling costs by remaining close to the current World Rally Car was important to them. The changes made for 2017 are as follows..." then there wouldn't be all this misplaced hype that will ultimately be a bit of an anti-climax. You can't argue that the new cars will have that little bit more impact, but we've been told they're going to look different, sound different, cook your dinner and give your wife a better orgasm than before.

They've ballsed up by over-hyping, though some blame lays with people inside WRC but not connected to the rule-making process - Malcolm Wilson and Markku Alen to name two.

[Hartusvuori]

I suppose we all have read the proposed reg changes and those who understand what it says, recognize the 2017 cars will be based on the 2011 foundation. Evolution, not revolution. Group B comparison was clear from the start when people realised the new cars can be somewhat bigger and more spectacular - even free - in shape. That "hype"' was equally created by the fans and the press, myself included. Now that we've seen the first glimpses of how it would be, many seem to have forget this indeed is evolution of the current spec, not all new. And get naturally dissappointed.

Funny though, people I know that have been to tests and commented the car, they all have said similar: "It indeed kind of reminds the Gr B". So, maybe what the most of us still miss, the actual feel of it, is actually quite something.

[Allyc85]

of course nobody is stupid enough to take what we are seeing with the Polo now, and think that's exactly what we will be getting in 2017. I expect the thing to slowly grow more spoilers/dive planes as time goes on.

I have to agree with what JML said back in Finland, the cars need flames, and loud bangs on the over run etc ;)

[danon]

http://img10.deviantart.net/660e/i/2012/173/3/e/subaru_brz_wrc_by_imprzz-d54gbzr.png

[Jack4688`]

If only :(

[Rallyper]

If only :(

If only what? That car is a fake, ot what?
(Maybe to big or something?)

[Jack4688`]

Yeah I know it's fake. If only it were real

[N.O.T]

can we have more autistic photoshops ? they are so badly made they are fun...

[danon]

http://s5.postimg.org/udzaxzmmf/image.jpg

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Passat as the next Octavia WRC..xD

[EightGear]

http://s5.postimg.org/udzaxzmmf/image.jpg

How old is this article? January?

[itix]

I assume it is pretty old since they are taking about fuel flow regs rather than air flow restrictor which is what ended up being the case.

[danon]

EightGear, even older but Passat is the weird part... http://voice.hupu.com/f1/1733476.html

[traxx]

There was also a central diff in the Polo tested car. What a work from VW in few weeks !

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10919056_887778134626355_8295729831035784923_n.jpg ?oh=7fbe60e4b33b52bed2734c12c7100ca4&oe=56668C01

http://bit.ly/1Ffa5eY

[Rallyper]

Their knowtion is way longer back in time. They have insight information you and I don´t have.

[traxx]

Maybe, but they are the only team to put a such car on the road...

[danon]

http://s5.postimg.org/lc0502uyv/polo_17.jpg

[Sulland]

Maybe, but they are the only team to put a such car on the road...

And they will test it with German efficiency and accuaracy, and by that get a horsehead in front of the rest!

[pantealex]

There will be new VW Polo roadcar in 2016, so 2017 WRC-model will not be current Polo bodytype!

[danon]

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/11891484_598179176986772_2082072212543151538_o.jpg

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/12015158_607594919378531_7917401159143760275_o.jpg

[danon]

"Frankfurt Motor Show of dreams" - Lancia Delta HF integrale WRC concept

https://scontent-mrs1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/12010606_607695782701778_697333793002468664_o.jpg

[Mirek]

Don't You want to start a topic "WRC photoshops" or something with similar name? It would be better to keep this thread for serious discussion about new rules/cars.

[danon]

Why the fuss?

CONCEPT!!! WRC photos posted in a thread named "The new FIA WRC-car CONCEPT!!! 2017".

Photoshop is essential part of bringing an idea to life and turn it into a final product - "A dream come true".

I am working on the next part of the answer...

[Mirek]

I have nothing against Your photoshops but it would be better to have them in separate thread as they are pure fiction which has nothing to do with reality.

[danon]

Mirek, post #308 is a serious CONCEPT photo posted in a CONCEPT thread.

No Photoshop!

Your Seriousness, I hope my imagination won't inflict deep pain and dangerous wounds upon You with the "fiction" below...


http://s5.postimg.org/6lmeshu4n/image.jpg

[janvanvurpa]

Why the fuss?

CONCEPT!!! WRC photos posted in a thread named "The new FIA WRC-car CONCEPT!!! 2017".

Photoshop is essential part of bringing an idea to life and turn it into a final product - "A dream come true".

I am working on the next part of the answer...

Why the fuss?
because real detailed informative information and images of what is already out there is as difficult as hell to find, so purely dreamed up pretty piccies of your idea of what some car might be like are what is called "fappery" as in fapping--a term which should be easy to understand..
There is of course a time and a place for fappery and fapping..Some can reasonably argue that the huge growth and popularity of first home video cassett players and then the whole internet was to a large degree based on fappery and the desire to fap..
But HERE we are in more need of real solid info, actuality.

Now rather than getting butt-hurt you could have told us what the connection was between the piccie and how you are working on "making the dream come true"..

That might be interesting..
OK?

[Jack4688`]

No Photoshop!

Yes, it is.

This is, presumably, the originator of the picture answering a question about it https://www.facebook.com/ilovelancia/photos/a.276624049142288.1073741828.276603465811013/607695782701778/?type=1&comment_id=607701636034526&reply_comment_id=607702252701131&total_comments=2&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D

Nice as it is, it's not a real car and isn't relevant to a thread about the 2017 World Rally Car Rules.

[liposh]

Mirek, post #308 is a serious CONCEPT photo posted in a CONCEPT thread.

No Photoshop!



This time I must agree with Mirek. It Is a photoshop and definitelly it is not SERIOUS concept car. It doesn´t even look like Lancia. It has nothing in common with Lancia design. It is dream of one silly man. If only someone would build his own WRC lookalike car from present Ypsilon or Delta in his own garage, it would be a CONCEPT. This is (ugly) dream of one man with no connection to nice design of Lancia.

[Rally Power]

http://s5.postimg.org/6lmeshu4n/image.jpg

This one looks great and it would be really nice if you open a specific thread.

[Jack4688`]

I've created a thread here: http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?35858-Dream-car-thread

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

BTW, can we moving the dream rally car posts from this thread..?

[giu canbera]

Hoping to not get BANNED here for this suggestion... but.
Wouldnt be a good idea do keep the costs low if for these new 2017 cars, WRC demand all teams to buy a spec and proper roll-cage/bars/structure built (based on all safety needed and size of the cars [that would be simple, they are all hatchbacks]) and the the manufacturers puts the engine and everything in place and then they cover the car with some kind of carbon fiber "bubble"? Kinda lina in NASCAR. They are pretty safety, cheap.. and manufacturers can add their carachteristics to that bubble, even that the cars are all the same
(nascar = all sedans / wrc = all hatchback)
Does it sound too stupid? Sorry for that =P

[Mirek]

It was discussed previosuly in this thread (at least I hope it was in this one). Maybe You can find the discussion if You go back. I think it was Lundefaret who brought this idea. There are certainly valid points behind the idea but frankly I don't think it would make WRC cheaper. The carmakers have dedicated budget to spend and they spend it all no matter what the car regulations area. It's costly not because of technical regulations but because it is the pinacle of the sport.

[itix]

It was discussed previosuly in this thread (at least I hope it was in this one). Maybe You can find the discussion if You go back. I think it was Lundefaret who brought this idea. There are certainly valid points behind the idea but frankly I don't think it would make WRC cheaper. The carmakers have dedicated budget to spend and they spend it all no matter what the car regulations area. It's costly not because of technical regulations but because it is the pinacle of the sport.

It was me, Lundafaret and some more people having that discussion and yeah, I more or less agree with you.

Plus you loose the connection with the grass roots of the sport where some pimple headed teen modifies his or her first ever car with a roll cage and some go fast bits and suddenly he or she is a rally driver.

The cost is more or less always what the team building the car has to spend. Sure, a spaceframe would be cheaper, but then you'll have so much money spent on dampers, engines and engine bits that those will be the expensive bits instead.

The budget is what it is and depends entirely on the following of the sport and how good a marketing tool the sport is perceived to be (and how much money the manuf. actually have to spend)!

We can see now that also the cost of the R5's are slowly creeping up with the Skoda being a bit over €200 000 despite efforts made to keep the costs down (the original Ford was something like €160 000) so development will always add costs where it is possible to develop.

[Rally Power]

We can see now that also the cost of the R5's are slowly creeping up with the Skoda being a bit over €200 000 despite efforts made to keep the costs down (the original Ford was something like €160 000) so development will always add costs where it is possible to develop.

Those values are underestimated. Used R5 cars are being sold around €200.000. Hard to believe that new cars can cost less than 250.000€.

[Mirek]

But they do.

[liposh]

I think the regulations for R5 cars are the best possible at the moment. You can´t push the costs down, because something would go wrong. So now we have got something with same price as old S2000 cars but faster. Praying for more would be sin :) BTW. I have seen Koci driving Fiesta R5 right behind Melicharek with Fiesta WRC during spring Valasska rally and Koci was much more spectacular (and finally also faster) It was worth watching. So with good hands you can do anything. ;)

[Mirek]

Top S2000 cars when on their peak were reasonably more expensive than R5 (I believe prices around 300 thousand Euros were not uncommon). The cost to run the two types of cars is not very different though.

[itix]

But they do.

I can actually believe that. Used rally car market doesn't really work like a normal car market. The Skoda is new and hard to come by, so if someone sell one now that you can take to an event tomorrow, that is worth more than a new that you have to wait for.

I am pretty convinced that the price of a new one is not far off € 200 000 though and the trend is clear, the cost is creeping up. I think that R5 is the best regs we could possibly ask for and it is a shame that the new WRC -17 was not a form of R6 with a bit bigger Restrictor. That would have been better than going with center diffs and increased aerodynamics and other things that make the car go straight. A cheap sideways speed machine is probably what more or less everyone wish for!

[br21]

new Skoda R5 "ready to win" package is 235k euros, Fiesta little bit less, similar PSA cars.

[Rally Power]

There are considerable differences between the price of a full options (gravel AND tarmac specs) R5 factory assembled car and the cost of the basic R5 kit (for just one type of road surface), that can be assembled in-house by the client. Either case, there are also taxes rates to be considered.

Currently, Peugeot 208 R5 Kit (tarmac OR gravel spec) costs 209.999€ (251.800€ with taxes). It's easy to understand that with the assembly cost and, if needed, the tarmac to gravel (or other way around) conversion kit, a new complete car bought from manus racing department will be very close to 300.000€ (VAT included).

The 208 kit price it's clearly mentioned on the order form (bon de commande): www.peugeotsport-store.com/documentation.php?id_nav=5&id_rubrique=71

[Mirek]

Sorry but no such thing like a kit exists with Fabia (Fiesta also only complete car I think). They sell only fully assembled cars and I know from several owners that the car cost them less than 250 thousand.

By the way since when do we speak about numbers with VAT?

[Rally Power]

Sorry but no such thing like a kit exists with Fabia (Fiesta also only complete car I think). They sell only fully assembled cars and I know from several owners that the car cost them less than 250 thousand.
By the way since when do we speak about numbers with VAT?

Let me guess, the price you've heard was 249.999€, right? And VAT, even if you get it back later, has to be paid, so it's better to sort all the numbers out.

It's true that Skoda and Msport only sells assembled cars, but from the 208 kit price it became clear that the price of a new R5 full spec car it's around 250.000€ (without taxes).

[Rally Power]

I think that R5 is the best regs we could possibly ask for and it is a shame that the new WRC -17 was not a form of R6 with a bit bigger Restrictor. That would have been better than going with center diffs and increased aerodynamics and other things that make the car go straight. A cheap sideways speed machine is probably what more or less everyone wish for!

Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.

[Mirek]

Let me guess, the price you've heard was 249.999€, right? And VAT, even if you get it back later, has to be paid, so it's better to sort all the numbers out.

It's true that Skoda and Msport only sells assembled cars, but from the 208 kit price it became clear that the price of a new R5 full spec car it's around 250.000€ (without taxes).

You said You can't believe that they cost under 250 thousand. Me and Br21 (who definitely knows how much they cost, You shall belive him) have told You You are wrong. Don't start some gymnastics about single Euros (it's not single Euros anyway).

This is exactly what You wrote and what was addressed as wrong.


Those values are underestimated. Used R5 cars are being sold around €200.000. Hard to believe that new cars can cost less than 250.000€.



Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.

R5 cars have real problem with reliability. It's very very difficult for them to finish WRC event withou technical problems. Do You think that overpowered R5 can somehow magically survive more? It can do short national events for sure but WRC ones? I'm quite sure they must be less reliable than normal R5 and as such be also a lot more costly to run (You can again ask Br21 how much the gearbox or diffs of R5 can survive).

By the way the most powerful R5 cars of today have engines fully comparable with late 90' WRC. I don't think that it wouldn't be enough.

[br21]

Skoda full spec costs 235k euros in gravel or tarmac, assembled car. For Fiesta we paid not much less if I remember right, for almost full spec assembled car, gravel or tarmac. I also know someone who get disassembled car from them, but price was very similar, just it was very basic spec, so little bit cheaper.
PSA cars you can but in kits, but also for something around 210k euros.
Obvious is when you buy car it's only in tarmac or gravel spec, so if you wish you need to get other kit, which costs a lot. But counting like that doesn't make sense, as if you will order i.e. 30 magnesium rims it will immediately add 15k euros.
99% people/teams who bought cars they paid 0% VAT.

Fiesta R5+ is nice to drive, but very often you have some problems with it as it's not that well developed like normal R5. Problems I mean with mapping and parts which are different from normal R5. Other, typical R5 car parts are getting worn much faster than in normal R5. Engine kms for example you count x1,5.

In my opinion R5 car (Fiesta in my case) can do typical (not very rough) WRC event without problems, but you really need to have car well prepared (which means a lot of investments - tests to check potential problems and new parts before the rally) plus change some parts during the rally.

[Rally Power]

You said You can't believe that they cost under 250 thousand. Me and Br21 (who definitely knows how much they cost, You shall belive him) have told You You are wrong. Don't start some gymnastics about single Euros (it's not single Euros anyway).

Honestly, I found that the one who has been doing gymnastics about the R5 prices it's you, because you weren't clear enough from the start.

I do believe Br21 info, but I found (and Br can confirm it) that 235k it's the value for a tarmac car, without the gravel conversion kit.

So a full spec (tarmac AND gravel) R5 car price is: basic version + conversion kit = over 250.000€ (without taxes).

PS: I see Br21 has already do it.

[Mirek]

Honestly, I found that the one who has been doing gymnastics about the R5 prices it's you, because you weren't clear enough from the start.

I do believe Br21 info, but I found (and Br can confirm it) that 235k it's the value for a tarmac car, without the gravel conversion kit.

So a full spec (tarmac AND gravel) R5 car price is: basic version + conversion kit = over 250.000€ (without taxes).

PS: I see Br21 has already do it.

Nobody has ever spoken about the car in both asphalt and gravel spec. Such combination has been never used for comparison of car prices regardless the class. Every car in the world gets naturally more expensive if You buy both specs. The only thing what it is good for is to make the price looking worse, same goes about Your counting VAT which is simple nonsense.

[Rally Power]

Obvious is when you buy car it's only in tarmac or gravel spec, so if you wish you need to get other kit, which costs a lot. But counting like that doesn't make sense, as if you will order i.e. 30 magnesium rims it will immediately add 15k euros.

30 rims has to be considered spare parts but the gravel kit price it's essential to understand the full price of the car, as it's due to rally both surfaces (and probably most costumers use it that way).

Anyway, thanks for your clear inside views.

[Mirek]

30 rims has to be considered spare parts but the gravel kit price it's essential to understand the full price of the car, as it's due to rally both surfaces (and probably most costumers use it that way).

Anyway, thanks for your clear inside views.

Most customer don't need both kits. That's the case in Portugal but for example here in CZ nearly nobody has gravel kit. Same applies to Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Slovakia, Denmark or for pure gravel countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden. In many other countries the gravel and asphalt events are not part of the same championship and therefore many owners have only one kit (France, Italy, Spain).

[danon]

Mr. Serious, how can you know who has it all. Sixth sense?

BTW - the thread is about "The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017"!!!

[Rally Power]

Most customer don't need both kits. That's the case in Portugal but for example here in CZ nearly nobody has gravel kit. Same applies to Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Slovakia, Denmark or for pure gravel countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden. In many other countries the gravel and asphalt events are not part of the same championship and therefore many owners have only one kit (France, Italy, Spain).

The 2 most important international championships on which R5 cars can compete (WRC2 and ERC) are mixed surface series, so it must be sufficient to understand the relevance of knowing a full spec car price.

In 2nd hand ads (notably at rallycarsforsale.net), the majority of R5 owners mention the availability of gravel (or tarmac) kits and some expressly refer that VAT it's not included on the advertised price.

Over & Out.

[itix]

Mr. Serious, how can you know who has it all. Sixth sense?

BTW - the thread is about "The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017"!!!

Danon is right, this discussion actually belongs in the R5 thread. I only mentioned it as an example of "development will make (relatively) cheap machinery expensive again, hence I don't believe in space frames for cheapness...", not as a base for a topic that belongs in another thread.

Also, it is no longer a car anymore and has no connection to the real world or to the sport's grass roots. Space frames work in Nascar because nobody would ever try to consider that a car anyway. Also nascar is possibly the most boring motor sport on the planet so why we would go there for inspiration is beyond me.

[danon]

https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/12140875_10153745396459973_8438730377613042155_o.j pg

[itix]

I think that's fake/photoshop. Can't really see it anywhere else other than on FB... so I doubt it is official!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Marcus Grönholm & Timo Rautiainen testing again with new Polo WRC 2017 today

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR2Z6_7XAAA9MWJ.jpg:large

[omer yetis]

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

[rallyace]

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

My thoughts exactly. Speaking of 2017 concepts... how about this one? :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJZjjaContk

I like it. And it's even cheaper to produce than an R5 car... :D

[N.O.T]

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

maybe because it was tarmac test ?

[Andre Oliveira]

Yes, track car :)

http://carsenc.com/uploads/audi/audi-quattro-s1/audi-quattro-s1-08.jpg

[Lundefaret]

Also, it is no longer a car anymore and has no connection to the real world or to the sport's grass roots. Space frames work in Nascar because nobody would ever try to consider that a car anyway. Also nascar is possibly the most boring motor sport on the planet so why we would go there for inspiration is beyond me.

NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

[Mariusz]

It's not all rosy for the Daytona 500 and overall NASCAR though. The event attendance goes down year to year and this is not because people watch it on TV as their ratings decline as well. I'm sure there is always something to learn from other motorsports, but let's not pretend that grass on the other side of the fence is greener.

[AL14]

NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

Mmmm I have some doubts here. You say: "For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there."

Partially agree. But we should not think that "more audience" means "more people paying attention to rally". This reasonment could open dangerous possibilities, like going towards tastes of masses and loose your identity. It's like you have a web magazine about art or literature, and you want more users but to get more clics you start to publish buzz stuff and trash content.
I'm sure you don't think or want this, and you are referring to NASCAR car concept but also in this case I would not watch too much to NASCAR and his couch-lazy public.

[stefanvv]

There is lot in common in all motorsport - crazy speed and lot of noise. If FIA/promoter want more public in Rally, they should do something in that direction (as simple it may sounds). Behind the curtains there is lot more to achieve that in ever aspect of motorsport - circuit races are easier to organize and cheaper - more races, probably more public (just like the football - almost every weekend). I agree though Rally looses its identity in that direction. Many people are nostalgic about Group B including me - for that times it just worked.... for awhile. There was just some "magic" about it. It is not anymore to get more and more people in the stages, difficulties with the safety you know, but actually transfer the "real" Rally to internet/TV. So far the promoter is doing well in that respect.

[dimviii]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/EkrmN1mSjew

[itix]

NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

I usually think your analysis is very good and detailed but your both wrong and right in this instance.

You are right that Nascar is achieving well for it's spectacle... over achieving quite a lot i'd say. But it is also molded for an american audience to fit like a glove on a hand. If americans seriously promoted rallying and if it had american roots, they would manage to make an equal following out of that.

Fortunately (I say as a european), that's not the case as I would not enjoy it. For me, nascar is beyond boring. I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow. No one thinks of them as cars, they don't even look like cars you can buy. All they ever do is drive in circles forever and ever and ever.... the races are many many hours long and nothing ever happens.

I'd say part of it's success in america is the american tendency to add drama to everything. Discovery channel came and did a documentary/show once out of one of my old workplaces. Everything was calm, standard and smooth sailing, nothing strange at all and yet when you watched the documentary afterwards and how they had produced it, it seemed like everything was falling apart all the time and we were just managing to keep the operations together and there was the hurry and the time stress etc etc... which was all BS and exaggeration.

The WRC promoter does kinda the opposite. They take away drama where there is drama (in my opinion anyway) and the TV production is seriously lacking what is actually going on out on the stages. Don't get me wrong, they have very nice looking TV pictures of cars going past pretty locations, but the drama is lacking.

I think we should maybe look at Nascar TV production and where they do well in those respects rather than try to copy their machinery which really isn't the best aspect of the nascar spectacle.

[omer yetis]

maybe because it was tarmac test ?

I don't think front bumper & splitter has anything to do with the tarmac test but the aero pack?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I don't think front bumper & splitter has anything to do with the tarmac test but the aero pack?

It may only be fitted for tarmac... that splitter wouldn't last long on a bumpy gravel event ...

Plus the car wouldn't look so much like a 'track-car' on on its gravel suspension.

[Lundefaret]

I usually think your analysis is very good and detailed but your both wrong and right in this instance.

You are right that Nascar is achieving well for it's spectacle... over achieving quite a lot i'd say. But it is also molded for an american audience to fit like a glove on a hand. If americans seriously promoted rallying and if it had american roots, they would manage to make an equal following out of that.

Fortunately (I say as a european), that's not the case as I would not enjoy it. For me, nascar is beyond boring. I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow. No one thinks of them as cars, they don't even look like cars you can buy. All they ever do is drive in circles forever and ever and ever.... the races are many many hours long and nothing ever happens.

I'd say part of it's success in america is the american tendency to add drama to everything. Discovery channel came and did a documentary/show once out of one of my old workplaces. Everything was calm, standard and smooth sailing, nothing strange at all and yet when you watched the documentary afterwards and how they had produced it, it seemed like everything was falling apart all the time and we were just managing to keep the operations together and there was the hurry and the time stress etc etc... which was all BS and exaggeration.

The WRC promoter does kinda the opposite. They take away drama where there is drama (in my opinion anyway) and the TV production is seriously lacking what is actually going on out on the stages. Don't get me wrong, they have very nice looking TV pictures of cars going past pretty locations, but the drama is lacking.

I think we should maybe look at their TV production and where they do well in those respects rather than try to copy their machinery which really isn't the best aspect of the nascar spectacle.

I think You are right on the money itix, and this is what I was referring to.

If You have a sport that in the outset has the potential to be extremely boring (cars driving around in circles), and You make that extremely appealing, then there is something to be learned.

I completely agree with You in that I also think (know), that much of the problem lays with how rally is broadcast. What stories are told. What stories are left untold. And how they are told.

When it comes to NASCAR they are extremely good at this, and the fan involvement is second to no sport in the whole world. They even have fans calling to the show, and put them over so they can talk with their star drivers while they are racing (when there is a caution flag), and they even promote the drivers to tweet during the race (in the caution). So they are extremely good at getting the word across - and the WRC should learn a lot of NASCAR.

The space frame thing, is really not so important for me. I just know that it could cut the cost by a huge margin, and open up for the possibility of putting the driver in the centre of the car, and the codriver behind him (I think driver safety is VERY important). And it was used in rallying during rallyings most epic years (group B with Peugeot 205, Lancia S4, Lancia 037 etc), and I dont hear anyone complain about them cars not being road car derived.

The latest "Group B" car was the Pikes Peak Peugeot, which also was a space frame, and I think that car looks a lot cooler than todays WRC cars. Space frame opens up for changing the body, without developing a whole new car, wich would cut the development cost by a significant amount.

But as I say - the WRC has a lot to learn from NASCAR in a lot of ways :)

[makinen_fan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR8gYq8UcAEmMWo.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR8gZAuUcAAqKeu.jpg

[dimviii]

they managed to make polo ugly.
What a bunch of amateurs...

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

That front splitter is hideous..!!
It's more like pre-2011 COT..

[itix]

It's beyond hideous. I have never been a fan of big splitters and this is no exception. The polo was in my opinion already the most ugly of the WRC cars and now it is even uglier. I know you are trying to create a fleet of Audi Quattro S1's but I doubt anyone likes that car for it's looks (more likely the sound and the way it goes).

The bigger restrictor and increased power were steps in the right direction. The increased track width was probably too... the greater overhang and increased spoiler size allowed was probably not so much :/

[janvanvurpa]

I think You are right on the money itix, and this is what I was referring to.

If You have a sport that in the outset has the potential to be extremely boring (cars driving around in circles), and You make that extremely appealing, then there is something to be learned.

I completely agree with You in that I also think (know), that much of the problem lays with how rally is broadcast. What stories are told. What stories are left untold. And how they are told.

When it comes to NASCAR they are extremely good at this, and the fan involvement is second to no sport in the whole world. They even have fans calling to the show, and put them over so they can talk with their star drivers while they are racing (when there is a caution flag), and they even promote the drivers to tweet during the race (in the caution). So they are extremely good at getting the word across - and the WRC should learn a lot of NASCAR.

The space frame thing, is really not so important for me. I just know that it could cut the cost by a huge margin, and open up for the possibility of putting the driver in the centre of the car, and the codriver behind him (I think driver safety is VERY important). And it was used in rallying during rallyings most epic years (group B with Peugeot 205, Lancia S4, Lancia 037 etc), and I dont hear anyone complain about them cars not being road car derived.

The latest "Group B" car was the Pikes Peak Peugeot, which also was a space frame, and I think that car looks a lot cooler than todays WRC cars. Space frame opens up for changing the body, without developing a whole new car, wich would cut the development cost by a significant amount.

But as I say - the WRC has a lot to learn from NASCAR in a lot of ways :)


Kära vän Lundis,
Jag kan förklara allt fär dig. Jag är iallafall ca 50% Armärikan..
Go and watch the wonderfull and well made documentary called
Talladega Nights.
Most people misunderstand the film and think it is broad parody.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
It is a 100% straight documentary and it perfectly explains why NASCAR grew and became so popular...

Sanningen ska fram!

It is simply the best car-racing film I have ever seen..

[makinen_fan]

4min video with Marcus testing the 2017 Polo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUZptH4hDFw

[omer yetis]

It may only be fitted for tarmac... that splitter wouldn't last long on a bumpy gravel event ...

Plus the car wouldn't look so much like a 'track-car' on on its gravel suspension.

thats what I am saying, that splitter is not for rallying...
anyway, if this is only for tarmac then you mean they also need to homologate another aero pack for gravel rallies?

[dimviii]

http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_10_2015/post-1899-0-17627600-1445715380.jpg

[Mirek]

4min video with Marcus testing the 2017 Polo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUZptH4hDFw

Can somebody tell me what is more attractive about this car than about the current Polo?

[janvanvurpa]

Can somebody tell me what is more attractive about this car than about the current Polo?

Black wheels.:love:

















:p

[danon]

^
LOL... good one, good one... :D

[itix]

Can somebody tell me what is more attractive about this car than about the current Polo?

Side skirts are all right... still hate the splitter :(
Some cars grow on you, don't expect this one will!

[Mirek]

I didn't mean particularly the look of it but the appearance of it in the video...

[Extremrallye]

Another one with different test stage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug6cBdUuabU

[AL14]

Interview with Gronholm about 2017 spec car and other stuff.
It's in french unfortunately but better than nothing.

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/2015/10/25/interview-exclusive-marcus-gronholm/

[Nelly]

Does anyone know if they will test in Catalunya today and where?

[AL14]

They will test in Catalunya and Sweden as Gronholm said in the interview. He said "maybe" but I'would translate it with "surely" :). He did not say anything about today though.

BTW, is there a french who can translate us this Question?

Que penses-tu de cette nouvelle réglementation, plus de puissance mais aussi plus d’aéro, est-ce que les voitures vont être plus spectaculaire ou non ?

Je ne sais pas encore exactement. Pour le bruit ça ira. Tout le monde essaie d’aller le plus vite possible avec les meilleures trajectoires possibles ce qui veut dire pas trop de travers ou de pilotage spectaculaire. Mais c’est la même chose aujourd’hui. Mais je pense que c’est bien.

He asks Gronholm if the new car will be more spectaular or not. The answer though, it's not too much clear to me...Maybe an english version can help. :) Thanks

[Extremrallye]

"What do you think about new regulation, more power also more aéro, do you think the car more spectaculor or not ?" "I dont know exactly, for the noise, yes, everybody tries make the car fast and to do to gothe best possible lines, so it doesnt mean lot of sideways, it doesnt mean you know spectaculor driving, but it is the same now".

[AL14]

"What do you think about new regulation, more power also more aéro, do you think the car more spectaculor or not ?" "I dont know exactly, for the noise, yes, everybody tries make the car fast and to do to gothe best possible lines, so it doesnt mean lot of sideways, it doesnt mean you know spectaculor driving, but it is the same now".
Thanks extremrallye. I would translate it again in this: "spectacular? You kidding me? This is one of the most boring rally car ever. You know I can't say it because they're paying me but this car will go more linear than a f1 car. Sideways will disappear from vocabularies in 2018. Thanks god I've been a driver when there were proper rally cars and not this race shit."

[SubaruNorway]

I think we have to wait until a faster driver has a go, Marcus is clearly not pushing.

[itix]

We will see... maybe the active diff stuff can reward sideways, or let's say different driving styles, although I doubt it. Good ol'e Gigi was sort of able to make it work back in the active diff era until he got injured so I guess that it is possible. Colin did too but that was in a longer wheel base car (I guess, I haven't made a case study of it). I am also not sure how active the diffs were back in those days... I was around 8-10 when I saw him and Sainz throw scandinavian flicks around every corner hahaha.

In my mind, the looser the diffs and the less aero-spoiler-splitter stuff they put on the cars the better it will be from a spectator standpoint.

[traxx]

Interview with Gronholm about 2017 spec car and other stuff.
It's in french unfortunately but better than nothing.

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/2015/10/25/interview-exclusive-marcus-gronholm/

Original interview in english is coming ;)

[traxx]

Any idea of what is the purpose of this kind of part in front of the front wheels ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSRkUSdWoAICshs.jpg

[Lundefaret]

We will see... maybe the active diff stuff can reward sideways, or let's say different driving styles, although I doubt it. Good ol'e Gigi was sort of able to make it work back in the active diff era until he got injured so I guess that it is possible. Colin did too but that was in a longer wheel base car (I guess, I haven't made a case study of it). I am also not sure how active the diffs were back in those days... I was around 8-10 when I saw him and Sainz throw scandinavian flicks around every corner hahaha.

In my mind, the looser the diffs and the less aero-spoiler-splitter stuff they put on the cars the better it will be from a spectator standpoint.

Hello itix.

Some ways to get more sideways action is:

- Less tire grip

- Less damper travel (mechanical grip)

- "Stiffer" diffs (lower ramp angles)

- Less downforce

[AndyRAC]

Thanks extremrallye. I would translate it again in this: "spectacular? You kidding me? This is one of the most boring rally car ever. You know I can't say it because they're paying me but this car will go more linear than a f1 car. Sideways will disappear from vocabularies in 2018. Thanks god I've been a driver when there were proper rally cars and not this race shit."

I really hope this is not the case. More power than grip is what is needed. More race car handling will not improve the spectacle.

[AL14]

I really hope this is not the case. More power than grip is what is needed. More race car handling will not improve the spectacle.

I hope that too. We must wait as someone else said, but Gronholm's words do not help to be positive.

I think actually nowadays cars are quite spectacular, not at Group B level of course, but it's very nice to watch them both live and in videos. I also think they don't need to be faster. I know this is like a blasphemy for most of you but really, are they that slow now?...

What they need, in my opinion is more variety, both aesthetically and mechanically (but not too much in order to keep the competition alive). Thank god someone invented the livery otherwise it would be impossible to recognize them.
And also some changements in fuel and energy to move them. Petroleum will finish and I would not like that rally will end with him.

[Mirek]

I really hope this is not the case. More power than grip is what is needed. More race car handling will not improve the spectacle.

But that's exactly what new rules bring - active diffs and more aero downforce. Forget about more sideways driving.

For me current cars are near perfect for spectacle. Maybe they could have more power, why not.

[Jack4688`]

I also think they don't need to be faster. I know this is like a blasphemy for most of you but really, are they that slow now?...

I could argue whether they could be faster or not but, put simply, I've never watched the WRC since the 2011 era rules came in and thought they were too slow. There's nothing wrong with the speed. It's just another case of rulemakers arbitrarily 'improving' by way of a blanket increase in speed. In this instance that includes corner speed by the looks of things.

[Rally Power]

Petroleum will finish and I would not like that rally will end with him.

The pressure to ban petrol engines will probably came from environmental reasons rather than oil reserves issues. Still a long way for alternative power sources became predominant in motorsport, but we'll have to get used to them (hope nobody will call us hybridheads...sounds terrible!).

Btw, last wekend Masuoka managed to get MMC Hybrid Outlander to the end of Portalegre 500 Baja. The car pace was modest (mid field times), but a burn fuse throw the crew to last places.

http://autosport.pt/iv/1/365/538/1-cxmitsubishi3224-2-3195.jpg

[traxx]

Original interview in english is coming ;)


Here it is :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzy4dXGCobk

[zeckgx]

I really hate the wide fenders. I wish they would go more towards Grp a rules in the 90s. I can appreciate the technology aspect but this nascar-esk aero packages is too stoopid. How about a slightly larger spoiler and some rolled fenders?

[tamasuperstar]

I sincerely hope not. Sports cars ... yes, but once rally cars lose their connection to everyday transport the sport will lose all relevance and the majority of it's following.

It already lost most of its following.

[tamasuperstar]

The car concept for 2017 is ok for me except the increase in aero downforce. More power and aggressiveness is what I welcome. The sound is quite OK but what I like to see is the aggressiveness of cars out of a corner like in the days of group B cars.

How about some global regulations with drawings, material definitions and measurements of parts that can be fabricated locally with any need of any homologation, only a passport from the local ASN.

The engine could be an engine big enough without any need of any high tuning. What I’ve read for example the BMW M3 used in Finnish F-Cup aren’t much tuned because about 300 hp is enough in the cup. My personal favourite would be a 2,5 – 3,0 litre V6 engine.

The transmission could be same or similar to what is used with the Maxi Rally cars. Well, the only options probably are Subaru or Mitsubishi or is there any other options?

This kind of formula would of course never get an approval from the manufacturers and never have a global championship but same kind of cars with their drivers could compete with each other and the performance of drivers could be evaluated in different parts of the world compared to the WRC or WRC2 drivers to find some new talents.

Are you kidding? The sound is the worst part of the whole thing. They are quiet, high pitched, buzzy, farty sounding, with absolutely no depth or volume to the exhaust. The anti lag is virtually non audible. Anyone who remembers the Celica ST185 and ST205 will know what i mean. You could hear the anti lag exploding like high powered fireworks. The whole show is just a complete joke.

[tamasuperstar]

They all look about 5% different from this year, so nothing to get excited about. I read in this week's Motorsports News that Markku Alen said:



There has been a lot of reference to Group B for some reason from various people and then this statement from Alen. I'm sorry but they will look different when you compare the 2016 cars to the 2017 cars but this isn't major changes we're talking about. All the 2017 cars will look just as similar to each other as the current ones do and sound broadly similar.

I'm sure someone like Jarmo Mahonen (correct me if I'm wrong) said that these regulations will provide much more variation but, again, I don't see it. Unless the FIA haven't told us some pertinent detail in order to shock the fans come 2017 Rallye Monte Carlo they will still be B-Segment cars featuring some bodywork appendages and large diameter wheels.

Don't get me wrong they may be great to watch and the best compromise between keeping costs down, keeping the manufacturers interested and giving something extra to keep the fans interested but I wish they'd stop trying to make out that this is something that it's not.

THIS IS NOT A NEW GROUP B. IT IS WRC 2017

Let's face it. The boat has been missed yet again. It's just another wasted opportunity where something much better should have been created. The cars will look virtually the same as they do now with no major shake-ups and from what i've heard so far, the sound is just as weak and quiet as it was before.

[tamasuperstar]

This is true. Group B cars were all so different in design and layout and there were so few rules, only that 200 cars had to be made. Group B is history and its like will not be coming back.

WRC 2017 will just be another evolutionary change with cars just adapted to some new rules. This is normal and good to look forward to, but not the big deal its being made out.

Let's be honest - it's just a complete let down.

[SubaruNorway]

Pre 2017 cars are allowed in 2017 right?

[pantealex]

Pre 2017 cars are allowed in 2017 right?

right.

but you can´t convert current car to 2017-model, new is new and old is old.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I like it..... i think?

[rallyace]

I like it..... i think?

It looks quite nice despite looking a lot like a WTCC vehicle rather than rally car.

I find it a bit provocative that they included Ogier's and Ingrassia's names on there. :p

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVYbxU7WsAAJHeW.jpg:large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2017-look Yaris

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChElNmdWUAEqnRl.jpg:large

[EightGear]

Them wheel arches. :eek:

[Lousada]

Good grief that is hideous! I hope the actual cars won't look like that.

[dimviii]

thats not a real photo.

[N.O.T]

photoshoped crap.

[itix]

Speaking of the real thing. Several news sites and Tommi Mäkkinen himself has stated that the car has run over 1000 km of testing in the past week... so... people from Finland... don't you have phone cameras in your nation?
How come no one has seen it? By now someone must have spotted it. I very much doubt he did the 1000 kms in his shop.

[Andre Oliveira]

He can drove that Yaris in 1000 Km without second pass on same place eheh no one saw it

[Mirek]

Speaking of the real thing. Several news sites and Tommi Mäkkinen himself has stated that the car has run over 1000 km of testing in the past week... so... people from Finland... don't you have phone cameras in your nation?
How come no one has seen it? By now someone must have spotted it. I very much doubt he did the 1000 kms in his shop.

It's possible to keep it secret for some time. There are suitable private areas with restricted entrance etc. I know for sure that there were many many tests of Škoda which weren't caught on any video or photo. Even with some cars destroyed without any photo ever surfacing on public.

[N.O.T]

It's possible to keep it secret for some time. There are suitable private areas with restricted entrance etc. I know for sure that there were many many tests of Škoda which weren't caught on any video or photo. Even with some cars destroyed without any photo ever surfacing on public.

difference is nobody cares a about skoda, but everybody cares about a legendary manufacturer returning to the WRC, plus WRC teams want the spotlight.

[OldF]

Nice article about the new Citroen engine and something about regulations as well (from http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?36057-2016-NZ-Rally-Events/page12 ).

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/magazine/10837-rallysport-magazine-issue-6-october-2016 (pages 44-45)

The original source is http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/september-2016/citroen-engines/page/3904--12-12-.html but IMO in the video is not as much info as in the article. From where have rallysport magazine got the rest of the info. If I remember correctly Dimviii posted the same video from youtube.

Few examples.

- Bore from 82 mm to 84 (maybe due to increased piston speed)
- Three jokers per year for the engine
- The torque remains the same

[Lundefaret]

Has the FIA considered what may happen in the event of possible failure or loss of the extra aero that next years cars are going to feature? Quite used to seeing formula cars spin or have incidents when aero is compromised after offs or comings together etc so just hoping we don't see an accident caused by one of the massive rear wings or front air dams failing on what after all will be much rougher events than circuits.

If the aero comes off after a spin, the changes will be predictable and the driver will adjust to the joy of the spectators (Neuville, Finland 2014)

I think this would be worse:

High speed corner 160-180 kph, car very straight because of aerodynamic grip, then hits rut and throws the car abruptly sideways, then all the aerodynamic "helpers" (rear wing, diffusor, splitter and underfloor) stall, causing a dramatic drop in downforce/aerodynamic grip.

[big_sw2000]

Think you only need to look at VW's GB testing with the 2017 car, to realise these new aero cars are already a lot more sideways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCz8zMTfiBY&feature=youtu.be
Steve

[macebig]

Prediction:The manufacturer that adopts their aero so as to work efficiently without the front splitter will make a lot of gains next year...

[gorganl2000]

Prediction:The manufacturer that adopts their aero so as to work efficiently without the front splitter will make a lot of gains next year...

been looking at the cars in the videos and i think that the car that is the least aero dependent may actually be at a slight advantage (assuming its a decent base to start with). I think that with all the potential to lose parts of the aero kit on gravel rallies and from accidents, things may become less stable when parts of the kit get torn off. But i'm sure the engineers have already thought of such and testing/research to minimise such impacts as best they can.

[EstWRC]

this one looks nice IMO

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14940194_566026860262805_6171951769333769103_o.jpg

[BleAivano]

this one looks nice IMO

It looks nice but still look too much like a WTCC car rather then a WRC car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Both the things I dont want.. Ogier and Red Bull at Citroen..

[HaCo]

From Gran Turismo, nothing serious, but bloody cool:
https://instagram.com/p/BH0D4C9g2yq/

[BigWorm]

I don't think that looks good at all

[stefanvv]

With some adjustments will be perfect.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

From Gran Turismo, nothing serious, but bloody cool:
https://instagram.com/p/BH0D4C9g2yq/
I prefer STi..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxULDhPXUAQsBPI.jpg:large

[giu canbera]

why no Mini Cooper 2017 concepts already?

[EightGear]

why no Mini Cooper 2017 concepts already?
What?