Sebastian Vettel?

[Captain Chaos]

Do you think Sebastian Vettel will be champion 2 years in a row?

Vettel has won at least 4 Formula 1 seasons in a row, so that's really saying something about what this guy can do.

I think yes, yes he will win a fifth year in a row. I've got a good feeling about this guy's track record. ;)

[rjbetty]

I wouldn't put anything past Red Bull. They are bringing major updates for Barcelona and I wouldn't be too surprised if they suit Seb and he takes off again. Still 15 races to go, including double points...

But Seb just seems too much on the back foot, not so hot now it's not all his way.

[Mia 01]

Remember The team Brawn in 2009? They won the first couple of races but then Red Bull outdeveloped them and won nearly all the remaining races. So yes, it´s doable.

[henners88]

Remember The team Brawn in 2009? They won the first couple of races but then Red Bull outdeveloped them and won nearly all the remaining races. So yes, it´s doable.
Brawn ran out of Honda money for development in early 2009 and I somehow think Mercedes Benz investment along with a vastly expanded facility in Brackley will give the team a better chance in the development race this time around. Its never wise to count Red Bull out of course and I hope they close the gap to make the racing more interesting, but we can't compare a privateer team from 5 years ago to what we have now, or do you think otherwise?

[TheFamousEccles]

Merc would really need to drop the ball to loose the title - I'm talking a catastrophic, team wide brain-fart. RBR are very likely to give them a strong run for the title, but the Boss is on form, Nico is not too far behind and looking ominous and Merc have been focussing on this iteration of F1 for the longest lead-in time, to all accounts.

But, strange things can happen...

[journeyman racer]

The Boss??? Nico is not too far behind?



I thought he was leading???

[Firstgear]

I don't think he can do it. While I agree that Red Bull might catch up in terms of speed and start taking race wins, such a steep development curve would probably introduce some unreliability. So even if they do catch up and even pass Mercedes in terms of overall speed, Red Bull dnf's will keep Hamilton (or perhaps Nico) ahead of Vettel in the standings.

[Doc Austin]

I posted this on the Mercedes team orders thread:


Right now it looks like the Total fuel could be the problem for the Renault runners, and if that's so, you can expect them to fix that fast. Newey is going to get the car perfect, and I think we are about to see the best Vettel we have ever seen. If you remember the other times he has had his back to the wall, he has always delivered..... Abu Dabi for his first championship and Brazil (with a wounded car) to win his third.

Red Bull and Vettel are absolutely deadly when they are hooked up, and we have seen how much and how fast they can improve, just over the two week summer break last year.

Assuming Renault and Total get the fuel sensor thing sorted out, they should be ok. The one time Red Bull ignored the sensors and used their own calculations, Ricciardo got a second place, so the Renault seems to be fairly strong.

If Vettel is going to pull it off again, Red Bull needs to start putting up maximum points every race or Hamilton is going to be too far gone to catch. I've got no doubt Vettel can do it if Red bull gives him the car, but it's a matter of not losing too much ground right now.

[anfield5]

Vettel is good, of that there is no question. But I have always had a slight doubt about his ability in a difficult or slightly off the pace car. Drivers like Fred and Hamilton seem to be able to win in also-ran machinery, where as Vettel and Button only seem capable of greatness in a great car.

So the short answer from me is no, Vettel will not win this year, unless Red Bull can provide him with a dominant car

[Koz]

I think back to Bahrain and how close Vettel was to the Ferraris which he could not overtake. Red Bull probably still has the best car, except for the engine. IF Renault can match Merc before Austria, then there is still a fight to be had.

We have 15 races to go, and 50 points means very little.
But the WCC is long gone.

[Tazio]

Vettel will probably win a race maybe a few this season but in terms of the WDC he ain't winning squat on a squat stick Baggie!

[Roamy]

Vettel will probably win a race maybe a few this season but in terms of the WDC he ain't winning squat on a squat stick Baggie!

the punk won't even beat his teammate let alone win the WDC

[Tazio]

I was only using colorful language, not name calling SV!

[TheFamousEccles]

The Boss??? Nico is not too far behind?



I thought he was leading???

You're right, I should clarify that I meant that statement in terms of form. LH is riding high in confidence, and NR nearly as much.

[driveace]

Vettel is good, of that there is no question. But I have always had a slight doubt about his ability in a difficult or slightly off the pace car. Drivers like Fred and Hamilton seem to be able to win in also-ran machinery, where as Vettel and Button only seem capable of greatness in a great car.

So the short answer from me is no, Vettel will not win this year, unless Red Bull can provide him with a dominant car

I agree with your post.Vettel is good,but in a dominant car,with this years car the Australian looks far more confident,and is not struggling as Vettel is .The same with Button too ,in a dominant car he looks good,but I am sure that if Hamilton or Alonso were in Vettels or Buttons 2014 cars,they would be dragging those cars round better than the pilots who are currently in them.I also as lots of other spectators got fed up of Vettels one finger salute,as I am sure thousands of others did too

[easy rider]

Merc would really need to drop the ball to loose the title - I'm talking a catastrophic, team wide brain-fart. RBR are very likely to give them a strong run for the title, but the Boss is on form,


Vettel may have more of a problem beating his teammate Ricciardo this season, and hardly will be securing the 2014 WDC from either Lewis or Nico. Sebastian's domination over the rest of the field was due to exhaust blowing technology in the RB9, which he exploited to the utmost, but is now not availabe, and gone in this season's RB10. The day's for now are over for Sebastian, just drawing away from the rest of the field, on to an easy victory.

[andyone]

someone mentioned above.. Vettel is not match for Fred and hamilton. these two guys are always the winners against there team mates. i dont remember hamitlon being beaten frequently by his team mate. or Alonso. unless they were on the same team.

but how the hell does a 4 time world champion car has changed and he is being beaten by his Team mate.. and that is going to bring frastration to him. and he will be loosing concentration. and start doing errors. pressure from Team mate. pressure from the mercs.

someone tell me about the intercooler issue with the Renault Engine compared to the Mercedes Engene. i heard the mercedes one is far from the turbo which makes cooling easier. where by the Renault Engene its closer to the Turbo. i will say not To Vettel winning the WDC. and if he does. i will rais my hands. and take back all my words.

[Mekola]

No, that's not Vettel year. Rule changes made a difference on the dominant team. Albeit is possible Seb could win a race in the future this year.

[Sage-sg]

I think Mercedes will win and in the end of seasons only Hamilton and Rosberg will fight for the title and I'm sure Hamilton will get the title.

[Mekola]

Vettel could be capable to win a race again, specially in the second part of this season.

[Mia 01]

Sebastian will win one or moore than one race this year.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Remember The team Brawn in 2009? They won the first couple of races but then Red Bull outdeveloped them and won nearly all the remaining races. So yes, it´s doable.

But in 2009 the status quo wasn't cemented in early February by an engine freeze with huge differences between manufacturers.

[driveace]

But in 2009 the status quo wasn't cemented in early February by an engine freeze with huge differences between manufacturers.

HaS there not been an Engine freeze every year ,at the beginning of the season ?
Hamilton hedges his bets 18 months ago ,as he knew what was going to happen ,after Ross sat round the kitchen table at his mothers house !
The old adage comes to mind regarding Mercedes,"It's the early bird ,that catches the worm"
Lie in bed too long like Renault and RB and you catch a cold !

[Tazio]

Lie in bed too long like Renault and RB and you catch a cold !Or maybe just start playing with yourself! :confused: :p:

[zako85]

Why should I even vote? So much guesswork.

Have you seen what happened to Villeneuve after 1997? Schumacher after 2004? Alonso after 2006?

By the way.. yes I think Vettel still has a chance to win even this year (maybe 10-15% odds), if Red Bull improves the car sufficiently.

[andyone]

Why should I even vote? So much guesswork.

Have you seen what happened to Villeneuve after 1997? Schumacher after 2004? Alonso after 2006?

By the way.. yes I think Vettel still has a chance to win even this year (maybe 10-15% odds), if Red Bull improves the car sufficiently.

He has to beat Riccardo as well.. Chances are slimming. Ricardo is not webber

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[Mia 01]

Seb is close at this track, he can win.

[Doc Austin]

Vettel really stepped it up at Spain and now he is much closer to Ricciardo. Seb will eventually get the new car figured out and be a real threat.

Of course, Daniel might be the only guy he has to beat tomorrow after the Merc duo take each other down the escape road at St. Devote.

[Bagwan]

"Vettel really stepped it up at Spain and now he is much closer to Ricciardo."

Wow , before this season began , how many of us thought that someone might have those words in a post in that order ?

[Doc Austin]

Wow , before this season began , how many of us thought that someone might have those words in a post in that order ?

It certainly surprised me.

Vettel had a bad chassis, so that really hurt him. On top of that, it seems like Ricciardo has had far better reliability. I'm pretty sure that before today Vettel has not had a weekend where the car didn't crap out on him in at least one session.

I'm not making excuses for Vettel, because Ricciardo has bgeen better than most of us could have expected. Vettel may have become a bit complacent with all the winning, and a fast teammate seems to have been good motivation for him.

Oh, and Vettel is leading Ricciardo in points.

[kfzmeister]

I can't see Vteel winning a single race this year, especially with both Mercedes' dominating the way they are. Mercedes is too strong on every track.
Compared to RIC, Vteel is struggling with not only the low downforce car of today (no EBD), but also the lack of the afterrun ignition while coasting. He made that system work to his maximum, yet this year he's looking rather bland. RB has a good car, but the power unit from Renault doesn't have the oompf.
In addition to all this, one must take serious note that Vteel is on his 3rd electronic box (read control unit) so far and only a total of 5 power unit components can be replaced before grid penalties take place. (Kobayashi already is on his 5th ECU, so that will come into play here very soon.)
Perhaps we can coin the phrase "10-spot Seb" soon?

[kfzmeister]

Vettel had a bad chassis.

Red Bull could not confirm this

[Tazio]

I can't see Vteel winning a single race this year.
In addition to all this, one must take serious note that Vteel is on his 3rd electronic box (read control unit) so far and only a total of 5 power unit components can be replaced before grid penalties take place. (Kobayashi already is on his 5th ECU, so that will come into play here very soon.)
Perhaps we can coin the phrase "10-spot Seb" soon?Yup!


The German and his Red Bull will begin tumbling down the grid once that allocation is exhausted. Based on his list of component changes so far, Vettel told Germany's Auto Motor und Sport: "It is easy to calculate that I will not have enough" for the entire 19-race calendar. (GMM)

What a freakin' tool!! (Marko not Vettel) The freakin' guy is intimating that he's going to sue Renault.


Marko suggested to Sport Bild on Friday that Renault has cost the energy-drink company a lot of money.


“It would be irresponsible to talk now about exact figures,” he said. “But it’s a long list of things lost because Renault has not worked well.


“The season’s not over yet. At the end, our financial department will make an account. Then we will see what loss we have made by Renault,” said Marko.


And he suggested a monetary loss is not the only concern. “The image damage is already beyond repair,” said Marko. :confused: bull piss?

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140530/f1/140539992#ixzz33Ue0rOGT

[MacFeegle]

Marko bite hand that feed him. Should think that Renault gave them strong engine for few years but not guarantee every year. Foolish man.

Bull have big foot in F1 so expect FIA let Renault have play with engine to improve 'reliable' but by magic Renault suddenly get more power me guess. Not happen? Happen before.

[driveace]

NO !!! Thats not on ! The cut of date was February Not July ! Red Bull and Renault had ample warning ,lie in bed late =Catch a cold,, Mercedes kept their balls all up in the air ,and concentrated on last years car too .
RB and Renault were not ready for that rainy day when it came !

[MacFeegle]

What not on?

You think it not happen. Watch space.

FIA never fair adjudicator. History show also. Sorry say but F1 run by money, not sport.

[Doc Austin]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140530/f1/140539992#ixzz33Ue0rOGT

Nice how Red Bull throws it's engine partner under the bus. After this, who will want to supply them?

[henners88]

Red Bull learn it doesn't always go a teams way every single season and reacts badly. They should pursue the VW connection and sue them for not producing a brilliant engine straight away.


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[Tazio]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140530/f1/140539992#ixzz33Ue0rOGT



Same link dawg! :rolleyes:

[driveace]

Sucking thumb time for Helmet ,Seb and Horner !Can't win them all ! Comes to mind, Renault could pull the plug,but Danny has no problem with the car or the engine !
Did we hear all the other teams complain when RB were dominant for the last 4 years ?
No Merc got their act together and produced a stunning car ,and engine .Renault probably thought they could be dominant again with half the effort ,but the chickens have come home to roost !

[steveaki13]

I honestly believe Mercedes may supply them engines. I know it sounds crazy, but I think it could happen.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Sucking thumb time for Helmet ,Seb and Horner !Can't win them all ! Comes to mind, Renault could pull the plug,but Danny has no problem with the car or the engine !
Did we hear all the other teams complain when RB were dominant for the last 4 years ?
No Merc got their act together and produced a stunning car ,and engine .Renault probably thought they could be dominant again with half the effort ,but the chickens have come home to roost !

It's not that two-dimensional, man. This all so fantastic Renault engine of the last few years was down on power in comparison to Merc and Fezza. The only weaker one was the Cosworth. That was made up with the clever 4-cylinder mode and trick mapping, which was co-developed by Red Bull. The KERS was developed by RB and Magneti-Marelli, making Renault the only manufacturer, who couldn't supply its customers with KERS.
This year however, the rules demand that the MGU-K and MGU-H are developed by the engine manufacturer and I think it's fair to say the French did what they do best - they surrendered.
Then 2014 comes around with Renault only investing pretty exactly half the resources that Merc have comitted and I think it is not exaggerated to say that the buckets of bolts they handed out for winter-testing bordered on organized fraud. Two weeks later Danny boy suddenly makes it to the front row *BOOM*. You know why? Because RB sent a crack team to Viry and fixed Renault's crap software, which it then kept to themselves and STR, which is why Lotus only started to run properly in Spain. That's how long it took Renault to achieve what the RB nerds did in two weeks.
RB is not a works team in the sense that they get their engines for free. Like all other Renault teams they have to pay for them and that bill's a helluva lot more than a sixpence. Now imagine you pay big bucks for a car and are presented with a rustbucket that doesn't even make it out of the showroom before nomming its own innards. What would you do? Cough up the dough and go home by bus? Or would you bend the dealer over the nearest piece of furniture and give him a darn good seeing-to?

[Whyzars]

...it's fair to say the French did what they do best - they surrendered.



:rolleyes:


Really?

[driveace]

Sebastian Vettel has now been told by his bosses at Red Bull to stop winging about the car ,and up his game and adapt his driving to the car .They told him 500 people at Renault can't sort the engine out ,and neither can the team ,So he should knuckle down stop moaning and put more effort in to adopting to the cars ability

[dj_bytedisaster]

Sebastian Vettel weeks ago has been told by his bosses at Red Bull to stop winging about the car ,and up his game and adapt his driving to the car .They told him 500 people at Renault can't sort the engine out ,and neither can the team ,So he should knuckle down stop moaning and put more effort in to adopting to the cars ability

fixed that for you ;) It's actually quite old news. Although I wonder about the wisdom of telling a driver - "they won't fix that engine". It's not exactly a motivational master-stroke, especially when they seem to be unable to give him a car that doesn't nom itself constantly. He had how many trouble-free weekends so far?

[henners88]

To be fair he was told after the Chinese GP in April but this was only reported to the worlds media on June 13th. Its fresh news in that respect. :)

[zako85]

Vettel's performance in 2014 does start to look kind of embarrassing for him and for the team by now IMHO. Having to drive an under-performing car is one thing, but losing to your teammate is something more serious. He didn't even make it into Q3 in Austria, even though his rookie teammate did. Almost half of season has passed, and this is about the time when he should get used to his new car.

[steveaki13]

He really has got Mark Webbers 2011-2013 car.

Amazing change of fortune

[airshifter]

He really has got Mark Webbers 2011-2013 car.

Amazing change of fortune

It has to make you wonder if the performance is impacting the team working on the car. We know bad races can get in a drivers head, but what about the supporting engineers and such working on that particular car?

Interesting that immediately after Sebastians issues they quickly told Daniel not to use the overtake button. Maybe a software glitch that caused the strange issue....

[Tazio]

It has to make you wonder if the performance is impacting the team working on the car. We know bad races can get in a drivers head, but what about the supporting engineers and such working on that particular car?

Interesting that immediately after Sebastians issues they quickly told Daniel not to use the overtake button. Maybe a software glitch that caused the strange issue....

Yeah in a way Red Bull are kind of maybe being little bitches by trying to extract with software something that they know the Renault PU probably wont support reliably. At least Ferrari are not trying to look bad (even though they are)

[Whyzars]

It has to make you wonder if the performance is impacting the team working on the car. We know bad races can get in a drivers head, but what about the supporting engineers and such working on that particular car?

I think they would be in a constant state of terror of making a mistake.

The drivers can make a hundred mistakes and it adds up to one second. A pit crew member makes one mistake, it adds up to one second and he is thinking he may get taken out the back and shot - like reeaally shot!!! :eek:

High stress much. F1 teams must have as many therapists as mechanics.


Interesting that immediately after Sebastians issues they quickly told Daniel not to use the overtake button. Maybe a software glitch that caused the strange issue....

In this day and age, I would think that a failure without smoke generally equals software.

[Garry Walker]

Despite the sad state of Red Bull (8th or 9th best car) it is good to see that vettel is still competely destroying his super teammate (winner of many many races and one of the best drivers of all time) both in qualifying and also in races, proving how his 4 titles were not flukes and were in fact only due to his amazing skill.

[henners88]

You are bad Garry :D


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[steveaki13]

You are bad Garry :D


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:laugh: Pass the pop corn Henners.

Where's Dj when you need him. :D

[henners88]

:laugh: Pass the pop corn Henners.

Where's Dj when you need him. :D
Salty or sweet? Oh DJ has waited months for this Steve and should be along soon lol. Garry is at least being complimentary this time though, not a hint of sarcasm :p

[Garry Walker]

Salty or sweet? Oh DJ has waited months for this Steve and should be along soon lol. Garry is at least being complimentary this time though, not a hint of sarcasm :p

:laugh:

Is DJ still alive? I thought he would drink himself to oblivion after every qualy and race this year :laugh:

[steveaki13]

:laugh:

Is DJ still alive? I thought he would drink himself to oblivion after every qualy and race this year :laugh:

Nah.... he's just call us all Vettel haters and Lewis fanboys. ;)

[Mia 01]

atleast he admits that Daniel does a better job for the moment.

I have trust in both him and Kimi, always has, no matter what.

[Tazio]

atleast he admits that Daniel does a better job for the moment.

I have trust in both him and Kimi, always has, no matter what.Vettel and every thing he says while getting his ass kicked by numorus pilots is totally irrelavent. He ain't that special!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Where's Dj when you need him. :D

Sitting in a posh hotel watching footie and not taking the bait :D

[steveaki13]

Sitting in a posh hotel watching footie and not taking the bait :D

Sounds like a good idea.

[veeten]

Hiding out always sounds like a good idea. Just ask John Dillinger... ;) :p:

[Doc Austin]

Vettel ..........He ain't that special!

Outside of being a four time world champion, that is.

I don't know how people can be so down on the guy when his car craps out almost every week. It's easy to pile on after he's had a bad weekend, but really, was it within his control?

[jens]

One friend mentioned that Vettel's season reminds a lot of Häkkinen from 2001 and I think the similarity is striking except Vettel is not anywhere near the end of his career.

All in all - a bad season. Underperforming and an awful reliability like Mika had in 2001, which contributed to the measly point-score. For a long time have been wondering, when will Vettel have such season, which goes completely down the drain (like Hamilton in 2011) and now it is happening. But he is a strong driver and will bounce back one day.

[Bagwan]

Sometimes , it seems , it can be a pretty small thing that can throw a driver off , though , like a tiny difference in "feel" on a pedal or a wheel .
When both are running , they are close , but Vettel isn't having an easy time of it , as he has in the past .

The logic says that the team designs the car for the champ , and the new guy must adapt .

But , it looks like this time the car suits new guy Daniel better .

I don't think it's really much more than that here for Seb .
I'm impressed at the way he is handling it , being that it looked very much like the car suited him far better in the last few seasons , and now he's having to adapt to a car that better suits his team mate .

To a degree , I think that's what's happening to Kimi over there at the red team , as nobody has had an easy time trying to drive Fernando's car .
Up and down the grid , you see guys way ahead of the team mates .

Sure , some are bound to run out of talent when they reach the sharp end , but , it can easily be just a case of a little "feel" missing .

[Bagwan]

I that already .
So , I'll just delete this one .

[Tazio]

Up and down the grid , you see guys way ahead of the team mates .

it can easily be just a case of a little "feel" missing .Or.....It could just be a case of getting a thorough ass-whippin' :angel:

[airshifter]

Outside of being a four time world champion, that is.

I don't know how people can be so down on the guy when his car craps out almost every week. It's easy to pile on after he's had a bad weekend, but really, was it within his control?

I don't think there is much he can do, and quite a few drivers on the grid could just as easily find themselves in the same situation. I think all the hate that gets spewed (when it is that) is just people pushing back after years of other people idolizing someone when in reality they often just have the dominant car helping them as much if not more than driver talent.

People love to see other people fall sometimes. Just not when it is someone they like. ;)

I've personally never gotten so wrapped up in any sport to let it bother me. Over the years in motorsport and other sports I've had people I admired for their talent, but not so much that I felt their results were some kind of reflection on me as a person. But others talk so much smack over their favorites that when things change, people are all too happy to talk some smack back. It's inevitable really.


I think Seb is stuck in a bad position right now. He did well enough in the lesser series to progress to F1, and then to a top team, fairly quickly. At that point he stepped into what everyone felt was the dominant car for much of that period, and he enjoyed quick title wins, great reliability, and several championships. Now the car struggles, and to top it off a new person on the team is outperforming him.

As I've said in previous threads, being outperformed doesn't make him a lesser driver. It could well be that he current car just isn't to his liking. But at the end of the day, most people will look right past that and see defeat.

[Tazio]

Hey Baggie, your boy Jacques has some strong words to say along these lines:


Villeneuve, however, said 34-year-old Raikkonen -- the oldest driver in F1 today -- has no right to be blaming the F14-T for his poor season.
"For him, the gas is either fully open or nothing," he said. "He is having a series of spins as though he is in Formula Three. :laugh:
"If he can't drive in F1 anymore, he should go home. He is a very experienced driver," Villeneuve insisted, "so he shouldn't be making excuses at every Grand Prix like a rookie does. :laugh:
"He should take two or three races to change how he's driving, and if he can't, that's a problem. You can't go on like this when you're a world champion. You have no right to make excuses."
Villeneuve also voiced an opinion about Sebastian Vettel, the struggling four-time world champion. He thinks Red Bull is beginning to turn its back on the highly successful German.
"He is a four-time world champion, but now Red Bull is treating him like they treated Mark Webber. They seem to have decided to focus on Daniel Ricciardo.
"Now they want to kill Sebastian because he's not right for the Red Bull image," he said.
Villeneuve thinks Vettel must be seriously considering a change of team.
"Of course -- you can't have another season like this. Even Helmut Marko has started to criticize him,” Villeneuve said. “When you lose the faith of the team and the politics starts to weigh heavily, you're finished.”



Spoken by a guy that had a bit of an issue realizing when he was finished! I mean really finished, stick a fork in me I'm done kind of finished. :laugh:
Just hand the car over to Jules, and pay Kim to leave again.....please :laugh:

[Bagwan]

Hey Baggie, your boy Jacques has some strong words to say along these lines:


Spoken by a guy that had a bit of an issue realizing when he was finished! I mean really finished, stick a fork in me I'm done kind of finished. :laugh:
Just hand the car over to Jules, and pay Kim to leave again.....please :laugh:

The quote at the end is the truth of it , Taz .
“When you lose the faith of the team and the politics starts to weigh heavily, you're finished.”

Whether legitimate or not , excuses don't get you much slack for very long in F1 .

Hand the car to Jacques , not Jules , though .
Then we'd have some fun .

[Tazio]

The quote at the end is the truth of it , Taz .
“When you lose the faith of the team and the politics starts to weigh heavily, you're finished.”

Whether legitimate or not , excuses don't get you much slack for very long in F1 .

Hand the car to Jacques , not Jules , though .
Then we'd have some fun .Yeah babe, OK, why not? At least Canadians a would have a good reason to go all mental and junk, seeing how The Stanley Cup is safe and sound in So. Cal. :wave:

[rjbetty]

being outperformed doesn't make him a lesser driver. It could well be that he current car just isn't to his liking. But at the end of the day, most people will look right past that and see defeat.

I think if Kimi and Vettel should be allowed this, then so should Fisichella in 2005. But then for some reason I don´t recall him being given any slack. :mad:

[Bagwan]

Yeah babe, OK, why not? At least Canadians a would have a good reason to go all mental and junk, seeing how The Stanley Cup is safe and sound in So. Cal. :wave:

Gotta let you win now and again or you wouldn't want to play with us .
How many Canucks on that team , anyway ?

If Ferrari are interested in column lines , there could no better driver to parachute into that seat .
He was brought in once before to drive the Nando set-up , and did alright .

Kimi is nowhere , like you said , and that's gotta change .

I'm as sure as you are that Jacques's name is not too likely to be on the short list , but it sure would be fun to watch , don't you think ?

[Tazio]

Gotta let you win now and again or you wouldn't want to play with us .
How many Canucks on that team , anyway ? I don't know I don't actually ghive a crap about Hockey,. In fact the only sports I really follow are F1, and The NFL.


If Ferrari are interested in column lines , there could no better driver to parachute into that seat . Don't care, would just like to see if they can remember how to build a fast challenger :dork:


He was brought in once before to drive the Nando set-up , and did alright .

Kimi is nowhere , like you said , and that's gotta change .

I'm as sure as you are that Jacques's name is not too likely to be on the short list , but it sure would be fun to watch , don't you think ? It's cool with me, I just wonder if he could get his big butt into an F1 cockpit. :confused: :)

[jens]

I think if Kimi and Vettel should be allowed this, then so should Fisichella in 2005. But then for some reason I don´t recall him being given any slack. :mad:

I somewhat understand your feelings and it is entirely possible that Fisichella is one of the lost talents, who got a top drive at a wrong moment, when he was not able to deliver any more in given circumstances. We all know, how important it is to be at the right place at the right time... in addition to great talent. But this underperforming doesn't take anything away from Vettel's title winning seasons for me. Likewise Räikkönen's current year doesn't take away from his fabulous 2005 or even the past two years at Lotus. Drivers like all sportsmen can have fluctuations.

Though I remember the bigger issue with Fisichella was that he tended to crack under pressure, which can't be said about Räikkönen and especially Vettel, who has delivered a championship twice despite a notable points deficit before the final phase of the year.

[rjbetty]

Thanks Jens, I mean all the stuff about "car doesn't suit", "boss favours team-mate" "more bad luck" "if if if" etc etc. rather than the underperformance itself. Fisi didn't have the car suit him too, but he wasn't allowed that as an excuse, he really was just that bad all along.

But other drivers like Vettel and Raikkonen, when the shoe is on their foot, then are allowed these concessions. It's the lack of consistency here! Either all suck or all weren't in fact in a position to be able to give their best, and in truth capable of better than they looked.

[journeyman racer]

I think if Kimi and Vettel should be allowed this, then so should Fisichella in 2005. But then for some reason I don´t recall him being given any slack. :mad:

Why would you give Fisichella the benefit of the doubt? I don't think anybody would group Fisichella with those two.

[jens]

It's the lack of consistency here!

Unfortunately we always have lack of consistency in arguments.:)

The problem is (in driver ratings, in competition and in life in general) that there everything is flexible and changeable and sort of 'open'. It depends, how people are prepared to adapt to all of this. Like drivers have to adapt to cars, people have to adapt to changes in competition.

If you take a firm opinion (i.e in my clear opinion this driver is this good and nothing changes it) it is likely driver will start performing in a different way soon and "proves" you wrong. People struggle to keep up with "consistent" opinions, because drivers consistently put themselves into different light compared to how we were thinking about him beforehand.:)

[jens]

Why would you give Fisichella the benefit of the doubt? I don't think anybody would group Fisichella with those two.

There was a period long-time ago, when Fisichella was considered a top driver or thereabouts. This was when he was driving for Jordan and Benetton. Unlike Räikkönen or Massa though, these cars weren't really frontrunning cars. So before teaming up with Alonso, both Massa and Räikkönen had been in top cars, while Fisichella in midfield. But when faced Alonso all three performed similarly despite being rated very highly before that.

In 2005 there used to be an argument that Fisichella used to beat all his team-mates (even high quality ones) and this is why he was rated highly.

[journeyman racer]

I remember Fisichella at Jordan and Benetton. At the time, there was indeed potential. However, I think he developed a reputation of not working hard enough. Maybe has had the odd race during the year where he looks top shelf, but never often enough to be actually considered top shelf. So I'd be interested in the pov.

[rjbetty]

Why would you give Fisichella the benefit of the doubt? I don't think anybody would group Fisichella with those two.

No I don´t group Fisi with Kimi and Vettel, but the issue is what Fisi did in 2005 (sometimes qualifying 1sec slower than Alonso) was taken as that's how good he is, without unreliability, car totally not suiting, not favoured by Flav, and all the rest of it being taken into account. They were all slurred away as ridiculous excuses. Maybe now they did have some validity after all.

It would be like saying Ricciardo is really that much better than Vettel (6-2) in qualifying, or saying Alonso just is and was that much better than Raikkonen, and simply leaving it at that.

[journeyman racer]

I get what your saying.

[rjbetty]

Thanks. :)

For the record, I'm not sure just how well Dan really is doing, but it's clearly very well. Seb has had problems but the 2013 Vettel would I'm sure easily be at least as good as Dan. In 2014 without the issues (Dan has had some too) I'd say they are equal, but I'd get the feeling at the moment it would be Seb hanging onto Dan rather than the other way round.

As for Kimi, most years I've felt Alonso had an edge on him anyway. I don't know where he's at regarding motivation or whatever, but I always felt certainly every year from from 2005 (maybe except '07), Alonso had a little more. The 2014 gap is not representative of the gap through their careers though. I don't know where Kimi's real 2014 level is now, given that Grosjean often seemed to edge him for speed in 2012, and again in 2013 when the tyres were changed.