Death Of A Despot

[oily oaf]

I smiled with quiet satisfaction last night as news reports of the passing of ex Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet were broadcast.
This rather odious man and erstwhile playmate of our own Maggie Thatcher is believed to have been responsible for the deaths of many of his political detractors and for the "disappearance" of thousands of his own countrymen (Los Desaparecidos) during his iron rule.

I seldom take delight in the death of any human being (I have set fire to one or 2 though ;) ) but in the case of this deeply unpleasant individual I'm prepared to make an exception.


PS A few years back I holidayed in Chile for a fortnight with Mrs Oaf.
How we laughed when we dined in a restaurant in Santiago and were served 2 bowls of piping hot and fiery England Con Carne.

[canada]

Agreed oily. My parents are from Chile, and left because of Pinochet. Unfortunately, the man never faced justice, but hopefully, the arrest that took place on Nov. 25 had some sort of effect on his demise. This is a man that deserves zero sympathy. The worst isn't so much the fact that thousands died because of his dictatorship, but rather that so many simply "disappeared" and that their families will never have the closure they deserve. And in today's Chile, it is too sad to see that so many conservatives and liberals attempt to cover up this sombre history with a simple "let's move on" mentality. Hopefully this will light a fire under the Chilean judicial system to speed up the prosecution of all those involved in the coup and ensuing rule. Although I won't hold my breath.

[Knock-on]

I suppose it's too much to hope that Mugabe will take the hit and do the decent thing. i.e. Rid the planet of his being.

The whole Pinochet / Thatcher debacle and subsequent encampment in a prestigious mansion in Wentworth Golf Course while he was "too ill" to stand trial was a national disgrace.

[CarlMetro]

I think the only shame bit about Pinnochets death is that it took too long to happen, and of course the fact that it happened naturally, rather than at the end of a hangmans noose.

[Bolton Midnight]

The whole Pinochet / Thatcher debacle and subsequent encampment in a prestigious mansion in Wentworth Golf Course while he was "too ill" to stand trial was a national disgrace.

Even as an ardent Thatcherite I thought that alliance was ill advised, glad he's dead.

[oily oaf]

I suppose it's too much to hope that Mugabe will take the hit and do the decent thing. i.e. Rid the planet of his being.

The whole Pinochet / Thatcher debacle and subsequent encampment in a prestigious mansion in Wentworth Golf Course while he was "too ill" to stand trial was a national disgrace.

Ah yes Mr Mugabe another sparkling beacon of rectitude and political integrity.
(dons Bill McClaren mask and adopts broad Scottish accent "They'll be dancing in the streets of Harare when he curls up his tootsies")

[BDunnell]

Apparently, Thatcher was 'deeply saddened' by Pinochet's death, which I find appalling. So too should all those who continue to revere her. If she is to be entirely consistent, she should also be 'deeply saddened' by the death of Saddam Hussein, because he was also once considered in the not-too-distant past to be something of a friend of British interests.

[oily oaf]

Apparently, Thatcher was 'deeply saddened' by Pinochet's death, which I find appalling. So too should all those who continue to revere her. If she is to be entirely consistent, she should also be 'deeply saddened' by the death of Saddam Hussein, because he was also once considered in the not-too-distant past to be something of a friend of British interests.

Couldn't have put it better or indeed more succinctly myself Mr B
(Well I probably could but sadly I have a rather nasty hangover going on at the moment. Curse that gypsy barmaid and her infernal pint pulling ways :mad: )

[Donney]

I'm glad he's gone and I agree with Carl.

[ShiftingGears]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Dave B]

I'm saddened by his death, but only because he's managed to cheat justice. He should have spent his last years peeking out through a barred window reflecting on his actions, but instead was able to enjoy the comfort and luxury which he denied so many.

And I agree, Thatcher's attitude is detestable.

[BDunnell]

Still, it has given me the pleasing image of her crying and Norman Lamont also being upset, which is nice on a Monday morning.

[donKey jote]

I already slapped (http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150117&postcount=36) her so I won't slap her again :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

edit: does link still work in the new forums? :confused:

[fandango]

And another September 11th passes into history...

It's a good thing that he's dead, but I think there should be a truth commission in the country before trying to move on. This is something that can help people find closure, which in the end is more important than revenge or indeed justice. Spain didn't have one, and there are still remnants of the past that should be sorted out imo. You know the saying about those not learning from history being condemned to repeat it.

[Gibbsy]

Atleast he was a dumb tyrant.

The economic freedoms he gave his people meant that a dictator could never stay in charge of Chile forever, there was too much freedom, too little control. I see Pinochets downfall as proof of the overall superiority of market economics.

Its left wing dictators like Kim Jong Il, that aggressively control their nations economy that last forever.

[fandango]

So when will oul' Fidel kick the revolutionary bucket? He'll be next, won't he?

[oily oaf]

So when will oul' Fidel kick the revolutionary bucket? He'll be next, won't he?

Oi! Be'ave yerself Fanny You're talking about the man I love squire :mad:
I've half a mind to lay your reputation to waste for that remark.
(dons beret and snaps to attention in front of Che poster)

Viva El Revolucion :s mokin:

[canada]

Oi! Be'ave yerself Fanny You're talking about the man I love squire :mad:
I've half a mind to lay your reputation to waste for that remark.
(dons beret and snaps to attention in front of Che poster)

Viva El Revolucion :s mokin:

I agree. I would never, ever put Fidel in the same company as Pinochet. Ever.

[oily oaf]

I agree. I would never, ever put Fidel in the same company as Pinochet. Ever.

Canada You're a swivel eyed revolutionary hero after my own heart sir :D

Just heard on the news that they're giving the old boy a military funeral :eek:

A trip to the city dump in a garbage truck would be a more fitting sendoff IMHO

[BDunnell]

Canada You're a swivel eyed revolutionary hero after my own heart sir :D

Just heard on the news that they're giving the old boy a military funeral :eek:

A trip to the city dump in a garbage truck would be a more fitting sendoff IMHO

With Thatcher, Lamont and all the other Pinochet-liking Tories providing a phalanx of guards. I can see it now.

[Rudy Tamasz]

We here live under a petty leftist dictator and I'll tell ya, there's no dictator like a leftist dictator. A rightist despot will throw you to jail or give you an appointment with a shooting squad if you start playing with politics, but at least he'll leave you some privacy. A leftie will always get into your bed with his ideology and propaganda and tell you what to eat, wear and think. I agree, old Augusto was a bastud, but he may as well prevented something even worse. Let's just be objective.

[courageous]

Upon first read of above post, I thought it was post of the year for subtle use of irony.

[Eki]

We here live under a petty leftist dictator and I'll tell ya, there's no dictator like a leftist dictator. A rightist despot will throw you to jail or give you an appointment with a shooting squad if you start playing with politics, but at least he'll leave you some privacy. A leftie will always get into your bed with his ideology and propaganda and tell you what to eat, wear and think. I agree, old Augusto was a bastud, but he may as well prevented something even worse. Let's just be objective.
Interestingly I just today learned that there was a group called "Russian Liberation Army" during WW2. Apparently some Russians thought Hitler was a better dictator than Stalin. I think there's food for thought for everybody who thinks the Allied countries were automatically the "good guys" and the Axis countries were automatically the "bad guys":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

[jso1985]

We here live under a petty leftist dictator and I'll tell ya, there's no dictator like a leftist dictator. A rightist despot will throw you to jail or give you an appointment with a shooting squad if you start playing with politics, but at least he'll leave you some privacy. A leftie will always get into your bed with his ideology and propaganda and tell you what to eat, wear and think. I agree, old Augusto was a bastud, but he may as well prevented something even worse. Let's just be objective.


Agree at certain point.
I never liked Pinochet at all and I'm glad he's death but sad at the same time he never faced justice.
But one positive point about Pinochet was that he stepped out and bringed back democracy in Chile when he realized that almost none wanted him to stay as president.
To think that Fidel Castro would call for free elections in Cuba is right now as possible as me replacing Alonso in McLaren.

I hope Castro dies soon, unfortunately there's no single chance he will face justice for all the Cubans disidents he killed

[fandango]

I agree. I would never, ever put Fidel in the same company as Pinochet. Ever.

You would if he put you behind bars in Cuba for disagreeing with his dictatorial regime. Do you think that doesn't/wouldn't happen? Or maybe you'd just be happy to have a Ché teeshirt in your cell. Castro is not as tyrannical as Pionchet was, but why can't the Cuban people decide for themselves?

[canada]

You would if he put you behind bars in Cuba for disagreeing with his dictatorial regime. Do you think that doesn't/wouldn't happen? Or maybe you'd just be happy to have a Ché teeshirt in your cell. Castro is not as tyrannical as Pionchet was, but why can't the Cuban people decide for themselves?

I was in Cuba recently and spoke to many Cubans. Plenty of people freely spoke out against Fidel (without punishment), but many more were happy with him. The general feeling there is that some change is necessary, but they prefer the system they have there to what is available elsewhere. They love free education, healthcare and guaranteed necessities. As for repression, I think I've been hassled more by the RCMP and Vancouver Police Department then the Cuban family I stayed with got hassled.

As for Pinochet, I know that my dad's brother was tortured, and my dad was shot at for being out after the military imposed curfew. Difference between Castro and Pinochet is that Castro would let you be free to live as long as you surrendered your wealth to the state, whereas Pinochet would torture or kill you for your beliefs, and not offer a chance.

Of course Cubans may be getting brainwashed, but then again which society isn't?

[anthonyvop]

I agree. I would never, ever put Fidel in the same company as Pinochet. Ever.
How could anyone Compare the two.

Fidel has Killed over 200,000 of his own people. 1000's more have died trying to escape that Island prison.
Thousands more languish in prison or virtual confinement.
His Brutal escapades has also lead to the death of thousands more around the world.

All General Pinochet was Guilty of is not being "Politically Correct" with those who would destroy his Homeland!

[canada]

How could anyone Compare the two.

Fidel has Killed over 200,000 of his own people. 1000's more have died trying to escape that Island prison.
Thousands more languish in prison or virtual confinement.
His Brutal escapades has also lead to the death of thousands more around the world.

All General Pinochet was Guilty of is not being "Politically Correct" with those who would destroy his Homeland!

Fidel Castro represents the VAST majority of Cubans who overthrew a tyrannical dictator, and General Pinochet overthrew a democratically elected president who represented the people. As usual anthonyvop, you have revealed your true colours. So do us a favour and stop spewing your rhetoric about how you support freedom and democracy, when all you do is admire demonic tyrants.

FYI: I'd like to see where you have the numbers of people "Fidel killed". Provide me a single reputable source. Further, those trying to escape the so-called island prison were usually the well-to-dos who'd rather risk their lives in order to keep their possessions.

As for Chile, how was Allende or any of his supporters going to destroy the Homeland. Seems to me that the US government paid the opposition in the Chilean Congress to block Allende's assent to power. It was the middle and upper-class unions that held strikes to prevent food from reaching the people in order to undermine the Chilean economy, and lead to economic collapse. Was it not Nixon who famously wanted to "make the Chilean economy scream"? Allende nationalized industries and redistributed land by taking it away from absentee land owners (who he reimbursed!) for poor Chileans. And through it all, Allende did not kill a single individual, whereas Pinochet is responsible for the deaths of between 3,000 and 10,000 Chileans. Those included some of the best and brightest Chileans like Victor Jara. Of course since he was a talented and activist folk songwriter, I'm sure you're referring to his death as a "politically incorrect" form of preventing him from "destroying" Chile with his guitar and pick. Those killed were Chileans who were unarmed and never threatened their country otherwise. After Pinochet rose to power, Chile's economy collapsed, and the poor paid for it while the rich got extremely wealthy. How do I know this? My grandfather (a stark Pinochet supporter) became exceedingly rich, while my father, an Allendista was forced to leave his Homeland. To this day, Chile is a sad case in which the gap between rich and poor is one of the largest anywhere in Latin America.

[oily oaf]

I think the terrible ordeal suffered by Canada's uncle and the narrow escape from death of his father encapsulates the cruelty and ruthlessness of Pinochet's Chile.
Mr Vops comments are not worthy of a dignified reply IMO.

Donde Estan Generalissimo?

[Eki]

Fidel has Killed over 200,000 of his own people.
We need proof. Name them.

[canada]

I think the terrible ordeal suffered by Canada's uncle and the narrow escape from death of his father encapsulates the cruelty and ruthlessness of Pinochet's Chile.
Mr Vops comments are not worthy of a dignified reply IMO.

Donde Estan Generalissimo?

Thanks oily! Not only do you bring much humour to this forum, but also much class! Just to clear up, I don't want to use personal examples to shut people up as a touchy subject, but if anthonyvop has such strong convictions, perhaps he should argue and back things up, and not just FOX News up the joint. But as you've pointed out oily, his previous comment was not worthy of a dignified reply.

[jso1985]

We need proof. Name them.
Can't find a website with it, but I can asure he killed many of his opositors and sent at least 1 million of Cubans into exhile, plus he financed Che Guevaras guerrilla who after all was just a foreigner killing Bolivian soldiers!


Fidel Castro represents the VAST majority of Cubans who overthrew a tyrannical dictator,

Without winning an election, I don't think anyone can claim he represents a vast majority!

And if Cuba is so great how come that of 3000 Cubans doctors that the goverment brought here already 150 have deflected and ran to Brazil and are now political refugees?

I'm not saying Pinochet was better, but both were/are tyrants and both countries deserved/deserve to be free with free democratical elections

[canada]

Can't find a website with it, but I can asure he killed many of his opositors and sent at least 1 million of Cubans into exhile, plus he financed Che Guevaras guerrilla who after all was just a foreigner killing Bolivian soldiers!



Without winning an election, I don't think anyone can claim he represents a vast majority!

And if Cuba is so great how come that of 3000 Cubans doctors that the goverment brought here already 150 have deflected and ran to Brazil and are now political refugees?

I'm not saying Pinochet was better, but both were/are tyrants and both countries deserved/deserve to be free with free democratical elections



Two points. Firstly, its called a revolution. Would you call the French Revolution, the Glorious Revolution or American Revolution a case in which they merely killed people? Its all in who's telling the story.

As for the doctors going abroad? Simple really. $$$$$$$. Human beings are far from perfect, and those doctors are mere opportunists who see the dollar signs available by going elsewhere. They claim to be bogus refugees. There are many doctors in Cuba, with an extremely high per capita rate. Certainly they aren't being tortured or imprisoned.

Finally, I do believe that you can represent the people without a democratic election. Hell, you can have an election and represent about 30% of the people. How many people showed up at Fidel's birthday celebrations? Over 300,000 in a country of 11 million, and Havana with a population of just over 2 million? Not a bad indicator given how difficult transportation in Cuba is.

Besides, why does every remotely political thread turn on Fidel Castro and his administration? We've talked this to death.

[Eki]

Two points. Firstly, its called a revolution. Would you call the French Revolution, the Glorious Revolution or American Revolution a case in which they merely killed people? Its all in who's telling the story.

Exactly. Like I've said before, Abraham Lincoln killed about 700,000 of his own countrymen in the American Civil War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

[jso1985]

And Castro did an Eki's favourite, sent his troops to another country without any good reason!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War

see? I still can't understand why Castro is seen as a "good guy" by the people who see Bush, Blair, Pinochet, etc, as "bad guys"

[Eki]

And Castro did an Eki's favourite, sent his troops to another country without any good reason!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War


True, but at least there already was a civil war when they went in and didn't start one like Bush did.