Opel's Rally Comeback

[Sulland]

Opel used to be a big brand in rally, and that made sure the "Old man with hat" syndrome stayed at arms length in many countries.

The intro of 4wd meant that Opel as well as many other brands stopped development of their 2wd cars, went into racing or stopped with motorsport. There are still many Ascona and Mantas being driven in rallies, but very few newer models, apart from some Kadett/Astra models.

The decision of Opel to do a comeback into the Rally arena, could be a commercial turning point for the brands Old Man With Hat syndrome.

If Opel is re opening its Rally Division of Opel Motorsport, many people still remember the brand out in the forrests, and would like to see it back!

[Rallyper]

Today a modern quality car, and not so much "old man with hat" car. But still - we very much would like them to do the same thing as in the sixtiees...

[AndyRAC]

The same with any prospective Manufacturer - the more the merrier. As long as it's done properly.
You would think it would be with a Corsa based car. However, I know they're running the Adam in a few series, but I always expect them to come back to top level Motorsport in circuit racing rather than Rallying.

The Ascona/Manta 400 were nice cars; with the former driven by Rohrl winning the WRC in 1982. Though I love driving the DTM Calibra 2.5 V6 on Gran Turismo....

[Sulland]

Have Opel started to build a R5 engine or chassis yet?

[Franky]

I remember reading somewhere on this forum, that they aren't developing any new rally cars at the moment.

[vino_93]

yep that's true ;) Nothing in development for the moment. No money to start something. There will be a meeting to see what they will do in the months coming ;)

[Rallyper]

They really should try. They could build a car for the average rally drivers to have fun with. Meaning a cost effective strong R5 car able to win local events.

[Sulland]

Congratulation to Opel Motorsport on their first championshionship, the ERC Junior title with Emil Bergkvist.

hopefully this can give boost to start on the next level!

[Eli]

yeah for now the Opel R5 project is on hold...unfortunately..

[focus206]

I didn't know he was already mathematically champion, big congrats to him! I didn't expect him to be this fast, he deserves the titlle. And I'm glad for Opel, looks like Adam R2 is a very good car, also Griebel and Zawada showed good speed.

[Mirek]

yeah for now the Opel R5 project is on hold...unfortunately..

They don't have money for anything bigger as it seems.

[skarderud]

The Opel R5 is testing again, some said. But nothing more is clear in terms of future.

[Ounin]

The Opel R5 is testing again, some said. But nothing more is clear in terms of future

As far as I know Holzer is testing the car and is willing to continue the development (see R5 thread on the forum) But it's all about funding.
Opel has done a damn good job in a very small amount of time; designing the Adam that is producing good results Right away and Opel has contracted top breed of talents Griebel, Zawada, Tannert and Bergkvist. With those four drivers you can build up a solid future plan, or Opel Motorsport will loose them. Having top talents in your team is one of the most valuable things to have nowadays.

[WUff1]

As far as I know Holzer is testing the car and is willing to continue the development (see R5 thread on the forum) But it's all about funding.
Opel has done a damn good job in a very small amount of time; designing the Adam that is producing good results Right away and Opel has contracted top breed of talents Griebel, Zawada, Tannert and Bergkvist. With those four drivers you can build up a solid future plan, or Opel Motorsport will loose them. Having top talents in your team is one of the most valuable things to have nowadays.

On the other hand these drivers will stop somewhere in their development all the time driving just an Opel Adam. I fear some of them will loose their base in rallysport someday, they can´t only drive Opel Adam in their career. Opel Junior makes no sense without producing a R5 car in my opinion.

[Lundefaret]

On the other hand these drivers will stop somewhere in their development all the time driving just an Opel Adam. I fear some of them will loose their base in rallysport someday, they can´t only drive Opel Adam in their career. Opel Junior makes no sense without producing a R5 car in my opinion.

I bet Opel Junior makes a lot of sense for Emil Bergquist who can drive for free all around Europe, and gather very invaluable experience, even if he ends up with a different team later in his career.
Opels Juniorteam and Adam Cup is a great contribution to the sport, and it would be even better if more manufacturers did the same. This way it would be easier to discover true talent, not only discover the "talents" with deep pockets.

[Barreis]

https://www.facebook.com/514805148554356/videos/1022557421112457/

[Ounin]

On the other hand these drivers will stop somewhere in their development all the time driving just an Opel Adam. I fear some of them will loose their base in rallysport someday, they can´t only drive Opel Adam in their career. Opel Junior makes no sense without producing a R5 car in my opinion.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my words but with a "solid future plan" I indeed mean development of an R5 as necessary to keep them.

[Simmi]

Unless you're building a WRC car then at some point you're always going to lose your most talented prospects. I think Opel have done a really nice job at getting a junior ladder set up outside of the WRC.

I can't see a guy like Bergqvist progressing further without going through an R5 on WRC events - so naturally that would be the next logical step for Opel. But if that programme is not properly funded then there's not really any point. You're not really helping the driver then.

I was really impressed by the Opel guys at the Circuit of Ireland and I'm looking forward to seeing them again next week in Germany.

[Rally Power]

As far as I know Holzer is testing the car and is willing to continue the development (see R5 thread on the forum) But it's all about funding.

Any photo or video of the Opel R5 prototype?

Having the technical support from Opel, why can Holzer fund the R5 project itself by selling cars to private teams? MSport has been doing it for years!

Even if Opel officialy doesn't be abble to enter WRC2 or ERC, european importers should be pleased to have a competitive car to rally in their national championships.

[Barreis]

No photo/video anywhere, if there was something, it should be somewhere on the web. Even when logan s2000 was in the development, guys found it and put it on the internet. It's hard to believe in this kind of stories without any evidence...

[AndyRAC]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1532214

Saw this a few weeks ago. A car for the TCR touring cars series....customer/ privateer efforts.

[Eli]

are there any news regarding Opel's rallying future?

[N.O.T]

go away.

[Rallyper]

go away.

Why should he? A relevant question should be answered more polite. Or you do N.O.T. like Opels heritage in rallying? Maybe you dont know about it?

[stefanvv]

With the success of Adam R2, I thing they should continue involvement in bigger leagues. So far not much info about Corsa R5, hope it'll happen some day.

[JakefromWRC]

I didn't even know Opel was in the sport. Shows how young I am.

[N.O.T]

I didn't even know Opel was in the sport. Shows how young I am.

how old are you ?

[JakefromWRC]

how old are you ?

Not old enough to know about Opel being in the sport.

[Sulland]

Calibra 4x4
http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/opel-calibra-turbo-4x4

Astra Kit Car
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cCTZNUgrM

[JakefromWRC]

Calibra 4x4
http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/opel-calibra-turbo-4x4

Astra Kit Car
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cCTZNUgrM
Thanks for these. Now I know a little bit more.

[Jarek Z]

Not old enough to know about Opel being in the sport.

Haven't you even heard about Opel Corsa Super 1600? It was quite a successful car a few years ago:
http://foto.rallyonline.pl/GALERIA/jarekz/elmot2002/elmot2002_jarekz_42.jpg
http://foto.rallyonline.pl/GALERIA/jarekz/polski2003/jz-rajdpolski35.jpg

And how about the legendary Opel Manta? :)
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?id=1506&tx_yag_pi1

[pantealex]

Not old enough to know about Opel being in the sport.

I believe Opel has had WRC 1st place cars (Ascona 400 and Kadett Gsi)

[Rallyper]

And this one: 1969 Rallye Kadett Sprint Group 1 1900 cc.

https://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fold.lms.se%2Frally%2Fno stalgi%2F70_tal%2Fostgotarallyt_dia_1970_dag.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fold.lms.se%2Frally%2Fnostal gi%2F70_tal%2Findex.htm&docid=EzLN9_Yqcp5bcM&tbnid=apSayqu7JKJ-RM%3A&w=300&h=254&bih=949&biw=1680&ved=0ahUKEwjvzrSR1L3MAhXCjSwKHUgwATM4yAEQMwhKKEcwR w&iact=mrc&uact=8

[Jarek Z]

How about this one?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=2

or this one?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=5

or maybe this?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=14

and this?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=28

Do you like it black?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=25

Or yellow?
http://rallyonline.pl/ft.php?idg=5068&pg_[go]=29

Yes, Opel has a beautiful history in rallying!

[itix]

Any news on this elusive R5 car yet? Or is it still a mystery?

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/drm/artikel/premiere-2020-opel-praesentiert-ein-elektrisches-rallyeauto-41746/

Opel presents an electric rally car
Opel is the first manufacturer to offer an electric rally car for customer sport. The ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup will be launched next year - the world's first Rallye one-make cup for electric vehicles.


This is exciting in the double sense of the word: Opel presents the Corsa-e as a rally car at the IAA and at the same time announces the continuation of its cooperation with the ADAC in the joint Rallye Cup.

"On the basis of the production vehicle, we have now developed an electric rally vehicle - as the first manufacturer in the world," says an enthusiastic Opel CEO Michael Lohscheller and ADAC Sports President Hermann Tomczyk added: "We bring now for the first time in the ADAC Opel e Rally Cup electric drives Popular sports and especially in the promotion of young talent. The innovative concept and cooperation with Groupe PSA open up new opportunities, especially in the promotion of young talent. "

Promoting young talent

The ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup will initially be held as part of the German Rally Championship and selected other events. The start of the one-make cup is scheduled for summer 2020, with at least eight race rounds scheduled to form a so-called "super season" between now and 2021. Part of the concept is also a comprehensive promotional pyramid, which includes, among other things, the reissue of the 2016 ADAC Opel Rallye Academy, which was a major success, as the first stage.

Reach and shop

The new Opel Corsa-e makes 100 kW / 136 hp with a maximum torque of 260 Newton meters from the state. He should be in terms of performance on the level of his predecessor Adam Cup. With a capacity of 50 kWh, the battery supplies power for 60 kilometers of evaluation. Opel will bring a mobile charging infrastructure with 2.1 megawatt hours of storage to the events over a 100-kilowatt charging unit can load the cars within 30 minutes to 80 percent. Organizers must design their schedule accordingly.

The development program of the Opel Corsa-e Rally in Rüsselsheim is in full swing. Initially, 15 Stromers are planned for the ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup 2020/2021. The car price at Opel Motorsport will be well below € 50,000 (net) for customer teams. "The fans will be amazed at the performance in our e-Cup vehicle", Opel boss Lohscheller is convinced.

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/fileadmin/news-bilder/_processed_/9/9/csm_Opel-Corsa-e-Rallye_8b614585ca.jpg
https://www.rallye-magazin.de/fileadmin/news-bilder/2019/Opel-Corsa-e-Rally-508399.jpg

[Rally Power]

[url]
"The fans will be amazed at the performance in our e-Cup vehicle", Opel boss Lohscheller is convinced.

The fans will also be amazed for the e-Cup Corsa only being able to run 2 or 3 stages, due to his limited autonomy. Besides this new electric BS, I hope Opel can make a proper R2 Corsa for real rallying.

[Rallyper]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/drm/artikel/premiere-2020-opel-praesentiert-ein-elektrisches-rallyeauto-41746/

Opel presents an electric rally car
Opel is the first manufacturer to offer an electric rally car for customer sport. The ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup will be launched next year - the world's first Rallye one-make cup for electric vehicles.


This is exciting in the double sense of the word: Opel presents the Corsa-e as a rally car at the IAA and at the same time announces the continuation of its cooperation with the ADAC in the joint Rallye Cup.

"On the basis of the production vehicle, we have now developed an electric rally vehicle - as the first manufacturer in the world," says an enthusiastic Opel CEO Michael Lohscheller and ADAC Sports President Hermann Tomczyk added: "We bring now for the first time in the ADAC Opel e Rally Cup electric drives Popular sports and especially in the promotion of young talent. The innovative concept and cooperation with Groupe PSA open up new opportunities, especially in the promotion of young talent. "

Promoting young talent

The ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup will initially be held as part of the German Rally Championship and selected other events. The start of the one-make cup is scheduled for summer 2020, with at least eight race rounds scheduled to form a so-called "super season" between now and 2021. Part of the concept is also a comprehensive promotional pyramid, which includes, among other things, the reissue of the 2016 ADAC Opel Rallye Academy, which was a major success, as the first stage.

Reach and shop

The new Opel Corsa-e makes 100 kW / 136 hp with a maximum torque of 260 Newton meters from the state. He should be in terms of performance on the level of his predecessor Adam Cup. With a capacity of 50 kWh, the battery supplies power for 60 kilometers of evaluation. Opel will bring a mobile charging infrastructure with 2.1 megawatt hours of storage to the events over a 100-kilowatt charging unit can load the cars within 30 minutes to 80 percent. Organizers must design their schedule accordingly.

The development program of the Opel Corsa-e Rally in Rüsselsheim is in full swing. Initially, 15 Stromers are planned for the ADAC Opel e-Rally Cup 2020/2021. The car price at Opel Motorsport will be well below € 50,000 (net) for customer teams. "The fans will be amazed at the performance in our e-Cup vehicle", Opel boss Lohscheller is convinced.

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/fileadmin/news-bilder/_processed_/9/9/csm_Opel-Corsa-e-Rallye_8b614585ca.jpg
https://www.rallye-magazin.de/fileadmin/news-bilder/2019/Opel-Corsa-e-Rally-508399.jpg

Can they be rebuilt to proper R2 car? :) :) :)

[denkimi]

How often will they have to replace the batteries too keep the performance at their peak?

[Mirek]

I'm pretty sure the fans won't be amazed...

And I hope that they won't burn some forest if things go wrong.

[mknight]

You mean like this: https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/may-2016/portugal-ss6/page/3543--12-12-.html ? And that wasn't even the fuel igniting, just the hot exhaust.

Due to the instant-pull and low gravity it is entirely possible to make it really fast. Adding some throttle-regulated sound is another possibility, it's not like current (turbo) R2 cars are exactly loud, same for most R5s. Range is the most funny argument of all, already now you have 20-30 km stage and then easily 1 hour of waiting. Stage distances between service are usually on the order of 60 km as well.

Seriously you people sound like old grannies arguing how this new internet thing is all wrong. Case in point here "proper rallying" for some people is RWD escort on a gravel stage. That might be fun to watch but it does draw manufacturers money, huge crowds or many new young drivers.


How often will they have to replace the batteries too keep the performance at their peak?

Probably a lot less than you change transmission or engine components. Note that battery degradation affects mostly capacity which does not matter as long as you have enough to finish the stage, while degradation of mechanical parts on normal car directly affects performance.

[Ucci]

What a bullsheet.....I'm already amazed over the horribly loud noises coming from E-motor....and no info about vehicle dry weight...should be on a pair to Mitsu evo10 gr.N...at least....
And agree with Mirek-who will prevent the fire when the car will start to burn?? The crews will need special firefighter license...the future looks really interesting & thrilling...

[Mirek]

You mean like this: https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/may-2016/portugal-ss6/page/3543--12-12-.html ? And that wasn't even the fuel igniting, just the hot exhaust.

You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel.

And yes, I am very sure people won't like to spectate this thing. When spectating on stages you can hear a lot of people talking about electric cars and at least here I have never ever heard anything positive regarding them and rallying. Nobody wants that except the politicians who create pressure on the manufacturers who afterward pretend that it's a great thing. It's all one gigantic hypocrisy.

[Rally Power]

Seriously you people sound like old grannies arguing how this new internet thing is all wrong. Case in point here "proper rallying" for some people is RWD escort on a gravel stage. That might be fun to watch but it does draw manufacturers money, huge crowds or many new young drivers.

It may sound old granny talk to you, but EV’s simply aren’t ready for motorsport. If manus, and the always well intentioned public opinion, starts favoring their rally use it’s not hard to imagine that sport authorities will be pressured to make radical changes to the events format (already in their PR Opel is admitting that “organizers must design their schedule accordingly” to recharching needs). Having even smaller sprint rallys and endless service breaks just to cope with EV’s standards won’t certainly make our sport more attractive.

[AnttiL]

Having even smaller sprint rallys and endless service breaks just to cope with EV’s standards won’t certainly make our sport more attractive.

I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

[the sniper]

I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

To be fair, they'd have been right! I'm open to electrics, but rallies shouldn't be watered-down any more than they already are...

[Ucci]

You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel.


Lithium-ion batteries cannot be extinguished with current technology; the only current solution is to throw a burning vehicle into pool of water (google the burning BMW i8 in Netherland, or simillar situation with the E-motobikes on the Moto GP few weeks ago...). I can not imagine a burning E-rally car in the middle of the stage....

[AnttiL]

To be fair, they'd have been right!

But we're still here babbling about

[Jarek Z]

I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

And they would have been right. Rallying is not more attractive than in 1985. And electric rallying will probably be even less attractive.

[AnttiL]

And they would have been right. Rallying is not more attractive than in 1985. And electric rallying will probably be even less attractive.

Had rallying continued like in 1985, it wouldn't exist no more. And same will happen if rallying won't adopt changes.

[Mirek]

I wonder if people who say that it's a good idea at least ever saw an electric race car by their own eyes.

[Jarek Z]

But we're still here babbling about

Yes, but there are much less fans than in 1985... TV doesn't even want to show rallying anymore...

Regarding electric racing cars, have you seen this:
https://www.facebook.com/ClubGranTurismo/videos/799033970477798/

[Francis44]

Had rallying continued like in 1985, it wouldn't exist no more. And same will happen if rallying won't adopt changes.

Or maybe if it continued with the same formula it would be more popular today. The truth is, no one knows. Do you have any data to support your quote?!

Like the F1 promoters already figured out, the top motorsport categories will also have to look at other alternatives which dont completely alienate the existing fanbase. I hope the WRC does the same.

[mknight]

You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel. .

Yes I noticed that all the burning Polos (and Fabias before that) were easily extinquished.. just like Breen's C3 in Turkey last year.

Sure I agree that electric race cars should make sound (connected to throttle position). But apart from that it is entirely possible to make them spectacular. How spectacular they will be depends entirely on the rules.

[AnttiL]

Or maybe if it continued with the same formula it would be more popular today. The truth is, no one knows. Do you have any data to support your quote?!

True. All I can say is that already in early 1990's with the economic depression many teams struggled with expenses and this lead into some rule changes leading into cutting costs like limiting recce length, inserting liaisons with no service or limiting changing of big parts such as transmissions to only night breaks. And many similar rules have gone forward to cut the costs, to keep the manufacturers in the game, because in the end it's them who pay for this. The cars themselves may be more expensive than ever, but many things around them are done cheaper.

I'm not saying full electric is the future, but it's an option that should be explored. The manufacturers aren't willing to put money on the current rally cars as they are for a long time. Of course, historic rallying will thrive as long as there's something to burn in their engines.

We must also accept that the sport has always changed and it will change again to keep alive.

[pantealex]

Problem is that we can´t kill R5 (and others below it)
so those "WRC E" cars must be quicker than current R5

Speed is not problem but traveling distance without very heavy "batteries" still is.

I own plug-in hybrid which has 300kg batteries, it goes about 20km in full gas before batteries are empty. Solution for longer range is not cheap, yet.
E-cars are probably future but not 2020 or even 2022.

[Mirek]

Yes I noticed that all the burning Polos (and Fabias before that) were easily extinquished.. just like Breen's C3 in Turkey last year.

You try to downplay a very real concern. What happens with a petrol car burning is just the fire. If you have a fire truck you extinguish it rather easily (of course it's a problem in the middle of the forest with a hand extinguisher). Even if you extinguish by water nothing serious happens. You can do that.

But if lithium-ion batteries start to burn just next to the fire truck it will probably won't make much difference to them burning in a remote place in the forest. Moreover if you try to extinguish it with water you will only add to the explosive power by adding hydrogen to the fire. If this happens somewhere in the forest it's much worse than with the petrol car because you can't effectively stop the fire from spreading until you cover all of that and the surroundings with a thick foam. For that you need very serious hardware. Something like airport fire trucks.

What is worst about that is that lithium-ion batteries like to start burning long time after they are damaged. This is what can never happen with petrol car. It can't simply start to burn in parc ferme in the middle of the night. The electric car can.

[mknight]

You try to downplay a very real concern. What happens with a petrol car burning is just the fire. If you have a fire truck you extinguish it rather easily (of course it's a problem in the middle of the forest with a hand extinguisher). Even if you extinguish by water nothing serious happens. You can do that.

But if lithium-ion batteries start to burn just next to the fire truck it will probably won't make much difference to them burning in a remote place in the forest. Moreover if you try to extinguish it with water you will only add to the explosive power by adding hydrogen to the fire. If this happens somewhere in the forest it's much worse than with the petrol car because you can't effectively stop the fire from spreading until you cover all of that and the surroundings with a thick foam. For that you need very serious hardware. Something like airport fire trucks.

What is worst about that is that lithium-ion batteries like to start burning long time after they are damaged. This is what can never happen with petrol car. It can't simply start to burn in parc ferme in the middle of the night. The electric car can.

You try to upplay a concern.

As you said yourself and as proved by all the recent rally car fires, they can't stop the fire for petrol cars either, unless they stop next to a fire truck like Veiby in Portugal. So what happens is that the car burns until there is nothing to burn and all that is done is keep the fire from spreading. Which is the same that would be done with battery fire.

Yes the battery fire will burn longer and with higher temperature. But if you know you have batteries that can take fire you use fire-extinguishers applicable for that (foam, CO2, various versions with particles) that keep it from becoming too intense. For spreading in forest water on surroundings will work just fine.

Batteries catch fire if they are damaged or if they overheat. In high performance electric car battery temperature management is one of the most important systems so yes that has to be designed properly. For damage you off course have to focus on protecting the battery. Which again has to be focused on but in a car with rollcage and lot of empty space (no engine/exhaust etc, no rearseats++) it should be possible. Civilian battery cars don't burn everywhere around in crashes, quite the opposite. Yes they don't "race", but again they don't have rollcages++ either.

And here we are again to the fire actually starting (if it does) it's not like it's nuclear fuel burning, keep it from spreading at let it burn.. just like you do with petrol rally car.

Btw. the argument about fire starting later is also funny, cause that's exactly what happened to Breen in Turkey.

[AnttiL]

Btw. the argument about fire starting later is also funny, cause that's exactly what happened to Breen in Turkey.

Well the difference was that Breen was driving the car. Petrol cars always have a risk of fire when they're ignited. But electric car could lit up hours after being shut down.

There's still challenges to be tackled with electric cars.

[dimviii]

lol
https://twitter.com/brievesrallye/status/1164525133358411777

[stefanvv]

lol
https://twitter.com/brievesrallye/status/1164525133358411777

And the spectators are standing still to honor the heroes. It's like a siren.

[Maui J.]

Well like it or not, electric cars are the future. If manufacturers want to stay competitive in the market they need to start producing EV across their range. Plus be involved in electric motorsport if they want to use that avenue as a form of marketing for their brand.

Fossil fuel vehicles will become a thing of the past. France, the UK, Norway, Netherlands and Germany have all called for new cars to be emission-free or low emission by dates varying from 2025 to 2040. Other countries will follow this lead.

Sure the Opel Corsa-e and the Hyundai Kona EV rally car being developed in NZ by Hayden Paddon, https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/motorsport/115141109/hayden-paddon-unveils-worldfirst-electric-rally-car-plans
don't sound super exciting at the moment but it's a start. And we need to start somewhere.
We could wait 20 years and start then, but to me the clever ones are the ones starting now.

Sure, the fire is always a risk. Isn't being a soft skinned fragile human, driving through the forest at 150Km/h in a metal box a risk anyway?Technology will probably have an answer. Like some form of fireproof, bullet-proof, oxygen starved capsule to hold the batteries. I don't really know the answer to this but I'm sure the FIA will insist on strict safety measures.

The manufacturers who are showing an interest now in e-Rallying now will have the head start on the rest.

Seems like people can't handle change.

[denkimi]

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

[AnttiL]

Yes, but there are much less fans than in 1985... TV doesn't even want to show rallying anymore...

I forgot to reply to this. In Finland the TV coverage of the WRC is probably better than ever (all the same as WRC+ with Finnish reporters talking over the footage and doing some additional features). On a free channel.

[mknight]

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

Wrong.
When electric cars+fuel cost about the same as petrol cars everyone buys them for anything but long range trips.
- simpler to use (changing gears is gone, service minimalized)
- no smell from fuel/oil/exhaust
- no irritating noise (for most people)

[AnttiL]

I think this is the wrong forum to talk about which is the right fuel alternative for cars in general, we should focus on rallying.

However, we can't change the fact that car manufacturers are now heavily interested in selling electric rally cars, and in the end rallying is just their marketing tool.

I think this Opel project is a good prototype and starting point. We might see that it won't work, but at least someone is trying something.

[Francis44]

It is so naive to shout "electric cars are the future". Development has this funny way of surprising us all. Well combustion is for sure not the future but I believe there will be a few interesting alternatives being presented in the next 10 years. And because of that, the WRC, a bit like F1 is doing atm, should be looking for those.

[mknight]

However, we can't change the fact that car manufacturers are now heavily interested in selling electric rally cars, and in the end rallying is just their marketing tool.



It is so naive to shout "electric cars are the future". Development has this funny way of surprising us all. Well combustion is for sure not the future but I believe there will be a few interesting alternatives being presented in the next 10 years. And because of that, the WRC, a bit like F1 is doing atm, should be looking for those.

Manufacturers are making, selling and developing electric cars right now , sure the total numbers sold worldwide are not exactly huge but the number of models being introduced right now is big.
Check out any new announcements or automotive exhibitions, you have petrol car and then about 1/3 of new announcements are electric. For small cars (which are the "base" for rallying) it's much higher. Electric cars are the "present" new technology.

Rally has always been "hanging after" a bit in the last 20 years, (turbo engines when everyone stopped using them around 2005, then 2l without turbo just as everyone started downsizing..), so to think that rally will suddenly jump over what is currently the main trend (electric and hybrid) and go for something in the future (hydrogen) is plain crazy. F1 has been using hybrids for 10 years, so no wonder they will be looking on what to do next.

[denkimi]

Wrong.
When electric cars+fuel cost about the same as petrol cars everyone buys them for anything but long range trips.
- simpler to use (changing gears is gone, service minimalized)
- no smell from fuel/oil/exhaust
- no irritating noise (for most people)
Last year 1,4% of global car sales was electric. 1,26 million electric versus 85 millions fossil fuel.
There are about 1,4 billion cars in the world, about 5 million or 0,35% of those are electric.
That is the reality. Nobody buys electric cars unless they are forced to or they are heavily subsidized.

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

[Sulland]

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced. None of the strage fees put on the price when you buy it new, and no VAT on E-Cars
On a normal 115 hp Golf vs e-Golf, the e-Golf et aprox 12 000 euro less tax/fees.
A normal petrol 115 hp Golf cost aprox 33 000 euro as a startprice.

More advantages: No yearly fees, can drive in the bus-lane, you can park them for free a lot of places, you do not have to pay on toll roads, low maintenence costs, very little noise, cheap insurance.

I drive 120 km (2x60) each day to work. If i were to use my old diesel car, that would cost me aprox 6000 euro only in diesel.
I have a small e-Up! as a commuter car. Charge it at home for aprox 8 euro a month, and charge it for free at the workplace. All in all a very good deal, both for me and the environment!

So now we have 3 electric cars in the household, and we have saved, and continue to save a lot of money!

When it comes to motorsport, it is more or less only Formula E that is operational in the FIA system. Next out is rallycross I guess.
Formula E is for me boring, even if it is ok racing - something is missing - sound!

It is coming, if we like it or not. VW will stop making diesel and petrol engined cars in a few years, and same direction will come for many other manufacturers. Maybe also US cars will have to leave their beloved V8 sooner than Trump hopes!

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!

[AnttiL]

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

Western progaganda only? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-not-tesla-will-drive-the-electric-car-revolution-2019-05-14

Manufacturers not truly interested in electric cars? https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/13/gm-vw-say-they-wont-build-hybrids-or-plug-in-hybrids-only-battery-electric-cars/

[mknight]

Last year 1,4% of global car sales was electric. 1,26 million electric versus 85 millions fossil fuel.
There are about 1,4 billion cars in the world, about 5 million or 0,35% of those are electric.
That is the reality. Nobody buys electric cars unless they are forced to or they are heavily subsidized.

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

Currently in most of the world, electric cars do no cost the same as petrol ones. I wrote when they actually do. People buy them, for the stated reasons.

WRC is basically a Europe-centric series (it even says in the rules that teams have to be based in Europe), the wast majority of cars is not sold in europe. But in countries like India or Indonesia, South America etc and are typically massively tuned down cheap older generation stuff.

Just looking at what car manufacturers actually invest in and develop right now shows you the majority is electric or hybrid. That being Toyota and VW who are the biggest car companies worldwide. That totally doesn't mean everyone will start driving electric tomorrow, but the trend is there.

Anyway talking about "propaganda" is the best way to stop any discussion.

[mknight]

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!


It is imo entirely possible to make a spectacular electic car (but it would also need some sound yes). Just like it is possible to make totally boring petrol car. (add active suspension, esp and active difs to a rally car and watch the "fun").

[Jarek Z]

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!

Electric rallycross car is here. How do you like it? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeD56BnI-o

[Franky]

Electric rallycross car is here. How do you like it? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeD56BnI-o

Like vegan cheese. Looks right, but clearly not cheese.

[Maui J.]

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

[AnttiL]

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

And they had to use artificial shutter sound!

[Francis44]

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

Funnily enough a significant part of the younger generation has a rejuvenated interest in old film, they prefer the tactile feel.

[AnttiL]

Funnily enough a significant part of the younger generation has a rejuvenated interest in old film, they prefer the tactile feel.

and vinyl. But these are just retro hobbies, like historic rallying. Most of photos taken and music listened is still digital, actually through smartphones.

[Jarek Z]

and vinyl. But these are just retro hobbies, like historic rallying. Most of photos taken and music listened is still digital, actually through smartphones.

Yes. Maybe that's why people lost interest in photos and music.
There are far less viewers of online photo galleries than it used to be 10-15 years ago.
And there are much less music sold nowadays than in the past.
Both things have lost their charm.
I'm not judging if it is good or bad, I don't know that.

[Mirek]

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

That's not exactly a good comparison because unlike digital photography which got widespread naturally the current electric car mania is driven purely by political decision. I'm not saying it's wrong from a long-term perspective but the scale of the change especially in terms of necessary massive investments into the infrastructure make it something completely different.

[AnttiL]

Yes. Maybe that's why people lost interest in photos and music.
There are far less viewers of online photo galleries than it used to be 10-15 years ago.
And there are much less music sold nowadays than in the past.

Well today we have things called Instagram and Spotify instead of watching "online galleries" or buying CD's...I'm sure photos and music are consumed today all channels counting more than ever. Anyway, this is highly off topic already.

[denkimi]

That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced. None of the strage fees put on the price when you buy it new, and no VAT on E-Cars
On a normal 115 hp Golf vs e-Golf, the e-Golf et aprox 12 000 euro less tax/fees.
A normal petrol 115 hp Golf cost aprox 33 000 euro as a startprice.

More advantages: No yearly fees, can drive in the bus-lane, you can park them for free a lot of places, you do not have to pay on toll roads, low maintenence costs, very little noise, cheap insurance.

I drive 120 km (2x60) each day to work. If i were to use my old diesel car, that would cost me aprox 6000 euro only in diesel.
I have a small e-Up! as a commuter car. Charge it at home for aprox 8 euro a month, and charge it for free at the workplace. All in all a very good deal, both for me and the environment!

So now we have 3 electric cars in the household, and we have saved, and continue to save a lot of money!

as i said. people buy them because their government forces them to, not because they want to.



Western progaganda only? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-not-tesla-will-drive-the-electric-car-revolution-2019-05-14

Manufacturers not truly interested in electric cars? https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/13/gm-vw-say-they-wont-build-hybrids-or-plug-in-hybrids-only-battery-electric-cars/


Currently in most of the world, electric cars do no cost the same as petrol ones. I wrote when they actually do. People buy them, for the stated reasons.

WRC is basically a Europe-centric series (it even says in the rules that teams have to be based in Europe), the wast majority of cars is not sold in europe. But in countries like India or Indonesia, South America etc and are typically massively tuned down cheap older generation stuff.

Just looking at what car manufacturers actually invest in and develop right now shows you the majority is electric or hybrid. That being Toyota and VW who are the biggest car companies worldwide. That totally doesn't mean everyone will start driving electric tomorrow, but the trend is there.

Anyway talking about "propaganda" is the best way to stop any discussion.
everyone is free to believe what he thinks is right, but the numbers don't lie.
85 million cars on petrol or diesel sold. 1,5 million cars on electricity.

manufacturers hardly sell any electric cars outside country's where those are not extremely advantaged by government intervention in the market.
people don't buy them, so manufacturers don't want to build them.

if it wasn't for the ridiculous rules the EU and some western countries try to enforce, no big manufacturer would even bother to make a decent investment in electric cars. they only do it because the green lobby has a lot of influence in brussels and enforces them to get their average co2 emissions below something what is technically possible. it's politics, not economics.

[Ucci]

That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced.

It Norway, one of the richest state in the world, with unlimited electric production and enormous government subsidies. In the rest of the EU and world situation is different (thanks god...), for example in Slovenia when purchasing a new E-car (pure electric driven!) you can get 7.500 € subsidies. But the state officials already stated that in the future this amount will shrink due to more E-cars sold. Fair enough, because new internal combustion engines with the latest Euro-6d norm are already almost without emissions. So new IC cars are no worry for the climate changes...
Ok, enough of this issue, let's concentrate on topic (and who will be the second from the manufactures who will join Opel....).

[Tarmop]

Cars have always played a role not worth mentioning in climate changes. Question is the air quality for people.

[Maui J.]

...necessary massive investments into the infrastructure...

Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.

[Rally Power]

if it wasn't for the ridiculous rules the EU and some western countries try to enforce, no big manufacturer would even bother to make a decent investment in electric cars. they only do it because the green lobby has a lot of influence in brussels and enforces them to get their average co2 emissions below something what is technically possible. it's politics, not economics.

Besides the green lobby in western countries, the major political motivation actually came from China. It was them who decided to make battery powered EV’s the new automotive trend, mostly as a way to escape from western tech dependence and also to reduce oil imports.

To keep their slice on the huge Chinese market, western manus were forced to enter into EV’s race and managed to use the green lobby influence to spread it through the rest of the world, making current EV’s to look as the perfect solution for transportation pollution issues.

But they’re not: 1 in 2 EV’s worldwide is sold in China and the electric source mix there is based on coal (70%) as it’s in many other countries; considering all the manufacturing process and their electricity source, current EV’s can globaly became a even bigger threat to Earth warming. That’s what EV’s propaganda isn’t telling us.

I truly believe sooner or later people will realize all this and ask for a real eco friendly tech, which already exists but is still underdeveloped: hydrogen powered EV’s. Untill we get there it would be wiser to trust in the hard work engineers kept doing to make ICE cars more efficient and less polluant.

That’s why FIA choice for mild Hybrid tech on 2022 WRC cars should be praised; Rally will manage to skip unsuited battery powered EV’s, while wainting for the Hydrogen ones to be available in the long term.

Sorry for the long OT post and here some interesting links:
https://chineseclimatepolicy.energypolicy.columbia.edu/en/electric-vehicles
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-12/china-s-father-of-electric-cars-thinks-hydrogen-is-the-future
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/climate/coal-global-warming.html

[Mirek]

Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.

No, it does not exist. The current infrastructure is able to support millions or billions of combustion cars but only a much smaller number of EVs. It's virtually impossible to replace the combustion cars with EVs without building a new infrastructure especially in big cities. What you say absolutely doesn't apply for city blocks of flats with hundreds of cars at every house.

It also doesn't exist on motorways. If you replace the current combustion traffic with EV the motorways are going to collapse because the recharging capacity is laughable compared to the traffic density. In fact due to the time needed to recharge you need many more recharging stations than petrol stations to keep the same traffic density running.

That's why new infrastructure has to be built, needs billions of investments and will take years to be built. But a massive spread of EVs is impossible without that.

[Tarmop]

Well, that infrastructure exist and it's a lot more widespread that the distribution of fossil fuels. It started over 100 years ago.
Can you refill your petrol tank at home? But you can recharge your EV at home.

Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.

Don`t compare lightbulbs and washing machines to 3phase industrial grids.

[Mk2 RS2000]

Sure long distance recharge stations need investment, but as it stands most EVs are for short distance city hops and so its a no brainer to plug in and charge overnight at home just like your phone.

And for a family with teenagers all whom have their own vehicles and no off street parking just imagine all those extension leads out on the footpath and the household voltage drop with household requirements and when mother is trying to prepare a meal.

[Maui J.]

Don`t compare lightbulbs and washing machines to 3phase industrial grids.


And for a family with teenagers all whom have their own vehicles and no off street parking just imagine all those extension leads out on the footpath and the household voltage drop with household requirements and when mother is trying to prepare a meal.

Well, you have have valid arguments but I'd like to say we have had a Nissan Leaf EV since 2016. It was purchased second hand (already used in Japan and imported to NZ by a dealer). My partner uses it for her work, school runs, supermarket shopping etc during the week. On weekends it becomes our vehicle to do various journeys, including taking 4 mountain bikes to the forest, visiting friends outside of the city with a round trip of about 110km etc. Supposedly it has got a range of 135km.
We charge it up every evening (with single phase!) and it's ready to go in the morning. It's never fully flat so the recharge is about 1 Euro a night, often less. It has been one of our best purchases for the family.
The money we have saved is substantial. I don't know about you, but I rather spend money on more interesting things than petrol. To me it's a no-brainer but of course this model doesn't work for everyone.

I think we need to agree that we disagree on this topic and move on.

[Neige]

From my year experience (in Lithuania, Vilnius) with EV's, I could say, that all sides prove their truth.
It's really good and reliable car, especially efective in some situations, like mentioned above.

But it also have a lot of unanswered questions and unsolved things, when it comes to mass usage.

Talking about autosport - hybrid system instalation looks reasonable. Full EV - I don't like that idea. But technologies are tested to limits in racing, so manu's will test them here, will it be EV or other petrol/diesel alternative.

In worst case - horse races still excist, so maybe old loud dirty cars races still be there while new rally "cars" will be racing between skycrapers in the sky of some big city 😀

[the sniper]

In worst case - horse races still excist, so maybe old loud dirty cars races still be there while new rally "cars" will be racing between skycrapers in the sky of some big city ��

Here in Britain, I can easily imagine there being more Mk 2 Escorts being rallied in 2078 than there were back in 1978! :D