No LED's in WRC?

[LowTech]

Some fellow Baja off-road racers and fans and are discussing WRC driving lights, and the question was asked, why are HID lights used in night stages instead of LED lights? In SCORE Mexico type racing (Baja 1000 etc.), LED's have completely taken over as the lighting of choice, so it's a bit of a mystery as to why LED's are not used in the WRC. Are there sponsor obligations involved (HELLA), or what??

Side note: Armin Schwarz's involvement and driving ability in the SCORE series has created new interest in rally racing over here, amongst 'off-road' racing circles at least. Also, a few of us have had some interaction with Armin (with Martin Christensen), and his driving style and skills are very impressive, despite being in a different type of racing for him. Also, he's maybe the first to use WRC style course notes from his co-pilot in a Trophy Truck, a new discipline in SCORE as well.

[mousti]

Fiesta R5's are using it and probably will be the new Fiesta WRC too.

[LowTech]

From a group member here;

"PIAA has had them for a while, but they don't make light bars. PIAA is using an LED that shoots into a reflector that worked very well, but their marketing program isn't focused on racing. I'm not sure what Hella deal is.

I bet the aero advantage [for LED's] is pretty substantial as stated earlier, and probably worth the price of the lights as they don't destroy or use as many as the off road guys. WRC has a pretty large world audience, so only light manufacturers with world wide distribution channels or OE customers could take advantage of the exposure. The US based manufacturers(manu-packagers) would get very little exposure to their customer base which are for the most part driving trucks/Jeeps/UTV's."

[Mirek]

In rallying there is a rule stating how many lights (bulbs) You can use - for example 8 (2 built-in, 2 on bumper, 4 on the bonnet). Such limitation doesn't make sense with LEDs. It's just my guessing but the reason why LEDs are not used might be in non-defined rules for them.

Now there is first rally car with LED light ramp - Fiesta R5 so maybe others will follow. On the other hand R5 rules are completely new and were created from scratch so they might be different than for other classes.

[ste898]

To me LED's look totally stupid on rally cars

Can I ask what the reason for having those stupid looking led's is......is it too keep the tree huggers happy

I just hope that the WRC's keep the proper lights as long as possible

[Mirek]

It's not about how things look but how they work. I don't like the look of Fiesta R5 ramp too...

[LowTech]

Can I ask what the reason for having those stupid looking led's is......

I think it's fairly easy to out-run your lighting at the speeds that are run on course in the dead of night in the desert, 120-140MPH on open stretches.

The 'light bar' companies continue to improve the intensity and color of LED's, depending what works best. Personal preference for driver and co-dog.

[Mirek]

The LED ramps shall have also much lower drag.

[mousti]

LED's are quite clearer than the traditional lights used, and probably doesn't need so much power too.

[dimviii]

Also muct be difficult to broke them at small offs,due to different mounting positions(not so front)

[Oppositelock]

As Mirek already said, the rules allow max. 8 lights in WRC events. Currently there is no regulation regarding LEDs - other than daylight driving lights - and how they are counted in relation to standard lights.

I understand, there is a kind of gentlemen's agrrement between manufacturer teams not to use them until the regulations are clear.

As on the other hand there is no regulation specifically not allowing LEDs, some teams use them.

[Mintexmemory]

I like them and it isn't just lower drag, there is a significant weight saving and easier for the crew to attatch them.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/9614539556_6ba96b3b8e_z.jpg

Compare with Mikko's set from RMC

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/12071147856_9b7545aeab_z.jpg

I should have thought a luminence per array formula would be easy to include in the regs. On the Evans car above there are two arrays presumably each giving the equivalent of 2 conventional lamps

[Mad cat jnr]

They arent as good over distance but give a good spread beam.

[jonkka]

In theory, led lighting is superior to light bulb in every respect except price. It's smaller in size, lighter in weight and consumes a lot less energy than equivalent bulb of any type. Even though single led does produce only relatively modest amount of light, those can be grouped together much easier than bulbs as energy consumption and heat generation are much lower.

Also lighting distance should not be a problem, if enthusiast built heavy duty units are anything to go by. In addition, for motorsport use (or directional lighting applications in general) led is better than bulb because light emitted by led is directed almost solely in a narrow beam whereas bulb radiates all around (hence they need reflectors to concentrate beam forward).

[Gregor-y]

It's probably not a big issue in competition but how are they kept warm enough to prevent ice and snow from building up? Filament bulbs usually have enough heat to keep themselves clear. I don't really like the brightness of HID and LEDs on the road but that's not a problem at events.

[LowTech]

From someone in the LED biz about lumens............ "1500lm from 30W vs current LED from ONX are 4300lm from 42W"

Good comments and photos, I appreciate the education!

[Viking]

http://rallylamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/r5.jpg

[Viking]

http://rallylamps.com/r5/

[stefanvv]

I like them and it isn't just lower drag, there is a significant weight saving and easier for the crew to attatch them.
I can add safety issue here. Recent example from Janner is how dangerous can be if some of old lights is detached, it was blinding Kubica for some time.

They arent as good over distance but give a good spread beam.
I think there are even better, have watched AUDI's illumination at Le Mans, it is like daylight.
I also wonder how different would be in fog conditions like in MC this year.

[Mintexmemory]

Well on ES1 at Monte, Barrable was using them

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2816/12243895435_bf40249620_z.jpg


Kremer wasn't - Not just fog performance but snow blinding might have been an issue as you can see

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7289/12083494836_f2f04ca8a6_z.jpg

[Mirek]

Yes, very white light is not good for fog or snow in my opinion. In fog it's better if it's kind of yellowish like any ski glasses.

[jparker]

Well, what are the benefits of having night stages?
Both, drivers and spectators can't see much.
Why do we need them?

I think they have to let drivers vote on this.

[Mintexmemory]

Well, what are the benefits of having night stages?
Both, drivers and spectators can't see much.
Why do we need them?

I think they have to let drivers vote on this.
Actually they are one of the last remnants of the 'endurance' aspect of International rallying. The sight of lights in the night with the accompanying sounds - glowing discs and exhausts are all part of the romance. Have you no soul?

[Mirek]

Rallying is the oldest motorsport kind and one of the most traditional ones. Night stages are natural part of the sport. Some of the most notable rallying moments happened in the night. The nigh stages also have special atmosphere. You don't see that much action but You experience what You can't in the daylight - You see the hot brake discs, flames from exhaust, light cones appearing in the distance through the trees. In the night the overall level of noise is much lower and therefore the cars appear to be much louder - You can hear them coming from greater distance.

Getting rid of night stages would be one of the most stupid thing rallying could do. It's enough WRC tried. At least the trend reversed.

Have You ever experienced a night stage?

EDIT: Mintex was faster :)

[Mintexmemory]

Rallying is the oldest motorsport kind and one of the most traditional ones. Night stages are natural part of the sport. Some of the most notable rallying moments happened in the night. The nigh stages also have special atmosphere. You don't see that much action but You experience what You can't in the daylight - You see the hot brake discs, flames from exhaust, light cones appearing in the distance through the trees. In the night the overall level of noise is much lower and therefore the cars appear to be much louder - You can hear them coming from greater distance.

Getting rid of night stages would be one of the most stupid thing rallying could do. It's enough WRC tried. At least the trend reversed.

Have You ever experienced a night stage?

EDIT: Mintex was faster :)

:) What my learned friend has said. Only I was briefer! Two different fans with different experiences and takes on rallying but speaking with the one voice of the true afficianado!
We could restrict rallying to daylight on tarmac on specially constructed roads wide enough for more than one car at a time. Then we could start all the competitors at the same time..... ;)

[stefanvv]

Oooooohhh yes, more noght stages in future Rallying please :bounce:

[jparker]

Well, I have been blowing the whistle during the night stages many times north of Parry Sound and Peterborough.
So, I know exactly what you guys mean.
I just don't share your feelings, at least not anymore.

[dimviii]

agree with Mirek.Feeling and atmosphere at night stages is unique.At Acropolis the night stage will be always on my soul.
As will be unforgetable the melody of twin solex 50 from a nissan 240rs at a night stage near Athens.Deadly silence,no wind,uphill for about 3 kms,before some 25 years.

[LowTech]

Good info, this thread has me thinking...... A WRC nighttime rally sounds like a great 'bucket list' experience!

[AndyRAC]

I’m another ‘old fart’ who wants to see Night stages stay – the sport has been watered down enough in the last 10-15 years. Driving in the dark is a skill, as is making pace-notes for night stages. Add in the sights, sounds, smells, etc
F1 & MotoGP have tried night racing – with artificial light; it doesn’t work, it just looks false. It only works when its dark and you rely on the lights from the car; Both the Spa 24 & Nurburgring 24 both work as they’re both on proper circuits with very little light.

[Mintexmemory]

Not to forget Le Mans (partially lit in the tribune areas for 24 hour entertainment purposes)
The first rally I ever attended was the 77 RAC. I was living in Yorkshire and a guy at work who knew I was into circuit racing asked if I'd ever seen a rally. In those days people mostly just went to section of the rally that passed nearest to them (less maniacs followed it all over the country for 5 days). Anyway the Yorkshire stages that year were held in the night. We went to Boltby where there was a natural bowl with about 35-40 seconds viewing per car. First up was a fantastic V6 sound in the distance, then the lights burst into the far side of the bowl from our position. Flash lights lit up the Munari Stratos periodically along the course and it passed us accelerating up hill. I have remained hooked to this day!

[306 Cosworth]

Can't believe someone said what's the point in having night stages in the WRC?

There's no greater buzz than standing on a pitch black stage, and hearing the cars in the distance and seeing the lights dancing their way through the trees and across the sky. No you don't see much, but the atmosphere on night stages is often electric.

[GallardoGT]

Not to forget Le Mans (partially lit in the tribune areas for 24 hour entertainment purposes)
The first rally I ever attended was the 77 RAC. I was living in Yorkshire and a guy at work who knew I was into circuit racing asked if I'd ever seen a rally. In those days people mostly just went to section of the rally that passed nearest to them (less maniacs followed it all over the country for 5 days). Anyway the Yorkshire stages that year were held in the night. We went to Boltby where there was a natural bowl with about 35-40 seconds viewing per car. First up was a fantastic V6 sound in the distance, then the lights burst into the far side of the bowl from our position. Flash lights lit up the Munari Stratos periodically along the course and it passed us accelerating up hill. I have remained hooked to this day!
Can imagine how you felt then :eek:

Should be fun when the WRC has double rows of LED's, twice as much as Evans with WRC2.

[HarriK]

Led lights tested here in Finland by quite an many rally drivers. Some said good, but maybe most of them said that distance is not so good as in xenon lights.

some site:
http://www.lazerlamps.com/ (m-sport using these)
http://www.lazerlamps.com/gallery/motorsport/