Current standard of WRC drivers 2014 season

[Rallyper]

Might this be a topic so we could discuss every drivers current performance in every event this year?

Starting with Mikko:

Next event will be crucial for him.

Mikkelsen:

Must show some more fighting spirit in Sweden not to be seen as a happy paid driver at VW, as someone mentioned in Mikko thread.

[stefanvv]

Good idea for separate thread, not spamming all others

[Eli]

it will be Juho Hanninen's turn in the Hyundai...will be very interesting to see his performance...

[Rallyper]

it will be Juho Hanninen's turn in the Hyundai...will be very interesting to see his performance...

Well, Hanninen was also mentioned in the Hirvonen-topic, so let´s see what he´s up to in RS. It´s about time he´ll show some good performance and that we shouldn´t be happy with a 10th place... ;)

[pantealex]

Hyundai:
After Monte there might be team orders from Hyundai: Bring car safely to finish!

Ford:
Mikko must lead Sweden after 1 complete day, he has so good starting place!

[stefanvv]

Hyundai:
After Monte there might be team orders from Hyundai: Bring car safely to finish!
Hehe, how Sordo was supposing to do that :D

[A.F.F.]

Some of you may disagree with me but I found Mikko's and Mads' drivingstyle very similar. It'll be interresting to see how Mads will cope with Citroen knowing that Mikko struggled with it very much last year.

Rally Sweden has superrally or whateverthefuck it is novadays so Huyndai will get milege even they have little offs.

I was surprised of Meeke and Kubica based on their Monte performance. Especially Meeke did a very good job and both guys brought important points for the team.

[Leon]

I was surprised of Meeke and Kubica based on their Monte performance. Especially Meeke did a very good job and both guys brought important points for the team.

I Guess you mean Meeke and Evans

[Sulland]

Mads has said the Ford and Citroen are completely different to set up, and to drive, and that he is changing his style to suite the car, and to learn from experience within the team.

He said he had learned a lot from the testing prior to and driving Monte.

But he must be fighting in the top in Sweden.

[Rallyper]

Mikkelsens pace today is underestimated. He could make a podiumfinish in Sweden but many competitors are candidates for that podium. Tidemand makes two testing days right in this moment and we all know what it means to have tests just before an event.

I think Tidemand is even faster than Mikkelsen so let´s see if AM will reach his dream... :cool:

[AndyRAC]

I think VW will want to see major progress from Mikkelsen this year. I suspect they will highlight a few events were they’ll want to see Rally winning/ challenging pace. This is his final year for learning, surely? Before this year, he’d only done 500m of the Monte in 2011, so used this years Monte to learn and get experience.

[A.F.F.]

I was surprised of Meeke and Kubica based on their Monte performance. Especially Meeke did a very good job and both guys brought important points for the team.

I Guess you mean Meeke and Evans

Yes, Evans!! I was thinking about Kubica when I wrote that post :)

[Rallyper]

Let´s see then who the most brave driver from ERC: Juho or Mikkelsen... :bounce:

[kirungi okwogera]

In the Mikko thread I was interested by the discussions around Esapekka Lappi. I'm not particularly excited by him as an individual driver yet, but I think it's interesting to see what people think the "normal" way to success is - i.e. Hanninen should've invested as a privateer earlier to do WRC rounds, Lappi is getting too comfortable as a paid driver in small championship, rallying outside Europe, etc.

Every recent top-level driver has had at least one full year in WRC early on where they were bad. If you wouldn't call them "sick dogs", at least nobody's jaw was dropping - Ogier, Neuville, Hirvonen had two - one factory and one privateer, Solberg, even Latvala had a year in the Stobart support team where he was middling. Most of them get one podium or something to show some promise, then join the frontrunners in future years. The only recent exceptions I can see are weirdly Sordo (kind of, 4 podiums in first WRC year) and surprise, surprise, Loeb in 2002 with Monte runner up and Deutschland win during a non-complete season drive.

You can talk about Mikkelsen, Meeke, Kubica, Hanninen as guys who came to WRC through an alternate route - having a longish, successful career in other championships. I'm not fully convinced this is an equivalent as it seems to take more years and nobody from IRC/ERC/SWRC/2 has been dynamite in WRC (yet!).

I think people remember Jari-Matti as 22 years old winning a WRC rally and think that instant results is what we should be seeing out of young guys: Lappi, Breen, Paddon, Evans or whoever. But they forget that a full season at world championship level seems to be the MINIMUM precursor to any decent eye-catching results, assuming a driver is talented enough to ever get them. And we can't expect another alien being like Loeb soon!

Do you guys agree with this assessment? I know further in the past it's different - Gronholm driving for 10 years before a factory drive, etc. - but this seems accurate to me for the past decade or so.

[Mirek]

Neuville came also from IRC (2 full seasons in Peugeot Belux). Ogier was successful immediately. He won his first ever WRC stage and took two podiums in his first WRC season (plenty of crashes too though). I would not speak about Kubica as having longer alternative career unless You count F1 into that. Otherwise he did only one full championship - WRC2 in 2013.

Generally I agree that You can not expect miracles in first WRC season but taking experience in WRC car is very expensive. Much more than in those alternative series. I am convinced that driving IRC/ERC gives more than driving SWRC/WRC2 due to higher level of competition and also because of recognition of overall results. Anyway it's interesting that all the recent fuss in WRC is about drivers which came from "nowhere" - Bouffier, Meeke, Kubica. I am thinking when was the last time somebody finished second in his second start with WRC car :)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ogier will always come out front on days 2 and 3, running first on the roads.... Settle back down the leaderboard. He'll catch up and win. See Monte.
Mikko will win a few rounds this year - as will Sordo and Neuville.
Boufier could win a round this year!
Kubica, more practice and some podiums in the end of the year.
Paddon will impress when he does 6 rounds.
JML a win here and there.
Mikkelson will set great times!! Podium here and there..
Evans will shine but a learning year - he will support M-Sport in points.

[Rallyper]

In the Mikko thread I was interested by the discussions around Esapekka Lappi. I'm not particularly excited by him as an individual driver yet, but I think it's interesting to see what people think the "normal" way to success is - i.e. Hanninen should've invested as a privateer earlier to do WRC rounds, Lappi is getting too comfortable as a paid driver in small championship, rallying outside Europe, etc.

Every recent top-level driver has had at least one full year in WRC early on where they were bad. If you wouldn't call them "sick dogs", at least nobody's jaw was dropping - Ogier, Neuville, Hirvonen had two - one factory and one privateer, Solberg, even Latvala had a year in the Stobart support team where he was middling. Most of them get one podium or something to show some promise, then join the frontrunners in future years. The only recent exceptions I can see are weirdly Sordo (kind of, 4 podiums in first WRC year) and surprise, surprise, Loeb in 2002 with Monte runner up and Deutschland win during a non-complete season drive.

You can talk about Mikkelsen, Meeke, Kubica, Hanninen as guys who came to WRC through an alternate route - having a longish, successful career in other championships. I'm not fully convinced this is an equivalent as it seems to take more years and nobody from IRC/ERC/SWRC/2 has been dynamite in WRC (yet!).

I think people remember Jari-Matti as 22 years old winning a WRC rally and think that instant results is what we should be seeing out of young guys: Lappi, Breen, Paddon, Evans or whoever. But they forget that a full season at world championship level seems to be the MINIMUM precursor to any decent eye-catching results, assuming a driver is talented enough to ever get them. And we can't expect another alien being like Loeb soon!

Do you guys agree with this assessment? I know further in the past it's different - Gronholm driving for 10 years before a factory drive, etc. - but this seems accurate to me for the past decade or so.

Well, Gronholm wasn´t 10 yrs before full factory season, but him also struggled years before he was mature enough.

Maybe this is what MW has in mind putting Evans in WRC car this year without pressure - just learning.

@GigiGalli - You havent mentioned Meeke and Östberg? Hanninen?

We have a lot of exceptations for many drivers. it will be an exciting year to come.

[Simmi]

Mikko will win a few rounds this year - as will Sordo and Neuville.

JML a win here and there.

I'd love to believe this. You know it's a 13-round season right? One already gone.

Nothing I saw last season shows me that any of the above drivers are able to beat Ogier if he has a clean run. They are relying on mistakes, punctures etc. Sometimes that's not even enough.

What's interesting to me is what potential does the Hyundai hold that can be unlocked. I think the Fiesta and DS3 are at the end of the line.

[Rallyper]

Expectations it should be - :o

[Nornbugger]

Mikko will win a few rounds this year - as will Sordo and Neuville.

JML a win here and there.

I'd love to believe this. You know it's a 13-round season right? One already gone.

Nothing I saw last season shows me that any of the above drivers are able to beat Ogier if he has a clean run. They are relying on mistakes, punctures etc. Sometimes that's not even enough.

What's interesting to me is what potential does the Hyundai hold that can be unlocked. I think the Fiesta and DS3 are at the end of the line.


I can only think that GigiGallino1 is accepting Ogier as being in 1st place and the wins he speaks of is best of the rest?

[N.O.T]

Ogier will always come out front on days 2 and 3, running first on the roads.... Settle back down the leaderboard. He'll catch up and win. See Monte.
Mikko will win a few rounds this year - as will Sordo and Neuville.
Boufier could win a round this year!
Kubica, more practice and some podiums in the end of the year.
Paddon will impress when he does 6 rounds.
JML a win here and there.
Mikkelson will set great times!! Podium here and there..
Evans will shine but a learning year - he will support M-Sport in points.

LOL... wake up or change sport...

[RS]

I am thinking when was the last time somebody finished second in his second start with WRC car :)

Has anyone checked whether Bouffier's middle name is Sebastien?

[RS]

Hanninen should've invested as a privateer earlier to do WRC rounds, Lappi is getting too comfortable as a paid driver in small championship, rallying outside Europe, etc.


Where is this magical money tree these drivers are supposed to harvest?

Most recent additions to works teams, apart from Evans, have come through a manufacturer/group ladder (Meeke and Neuville with PSA, Mikkelsen with VW).

Only one that didn't work out directely for was Hanninen, because VAG had Mikelssen and Juho is probably viewed by VAG as a relative pensioner.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Hanninen should've invested as a privateer earlier to do WRC rounds, Lappi is getting too comfortable as a paid driver in small championship, rallying outside Europe, etc.


Juho Haninen, run in Production WRC with a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX, Junior WRC with a C2 S1600 and did at least two rounds with the Mitsubishi Lancer WRC05. My guess for him, is he was allways the underdog.

[Mirek]

In the PWRC he was also very unlucky - he won half of all stages he did but the car broke down too many times. Anyway that years champion Aigner didn't get anywhere too...

[Rallyper]

Will Kubica be the runner up after second round in Rally Sweden? High hopes on him, showing incredible speed on tests before RS.

[N.O.T]

Will Kubica be the runner up after second round in Rally Sweden? High hopes on him, showing incredible speed on tests before RS.

No... testing is testing.

[A.F.F.]

I am thinking when was the last time somebody finished second in his second start with WRC car :)

Has anyone checked whether Bouffier's middle name is Sebastien?

Figures..... :dozey:

[Miika]

Greetings to all the WRC regulars out there:


"He (Kubica) is the most talented driver I have ever sat with. Yes." (...) "When we were doing that I was thinking a little bit: 'Oh, shit...' But we didn't have any moments, we didn't have any problems at all." (...) "He told me he had done some running in the snow in Poland," Grönholm says,"but in a Group N Mitsubishi or something like that. It's amazing that he has the speed and the feel for the car." (...) "Maybe winning this year isn't possible, but when he has more experience then everything is possible."

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... on-kubica/ (http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/5859/gronholm-verdict-on-kubica/)

[A.F.F.]

Who is that Grönholm and what do he know about WRC anyway?

[stefanvv]

Who is that Grönholm and what do he know about WRC anyway?
I've heard he has won Rally Sweden 5 times

[N.O.T]

many drivers in the past made wrong assumptions...

lets not forget the late penti who claimed that Rautenbach was far more talented than Latvala...

Kubica is a nice addition but he has no serious future in the sport...

[A.F.F.]

many drivers in the past made wrong assumptions...

lets not forget the late penti who claimed that Rautenbach was far more talented than Latvala...

Kubica is a nice addition but he has no serious future in the sport...

Pentti. And let's never forget him.

[thuGG]

Kubica is a nice addition but he has no serious future in the sport...

Care to explain?

[N.O.T]

his disability will always be a huge disadvantage to be a challenger for wins, if some of the top 3-4 retire then yes maybe. plus he seems to be all over the place at the moment. He is fast and nice to watch though and he truly loves the sport so it is nice to have him.

[thuGG]

I don't think his disability is much disadvantage, if it would be then he surely wouldn't win stages already in Monte. Certainly it doesn't look like it's slowing him down and he also doesn't complain about it, so I think you're putting too much attention to it.
As for the "all over the place" I'm pretty sure that most drivers were/are like that at the beginning (and some were like that almost through the whole career and became legends).
Time will tell, I think his attitude (commitment, work ethics) will help him.

[Rallyper]

Here´s my list of current standards:
Ogier: fast but make mistakes. No PS points rubbed his confidence a bit. This time he drove like a virgin on snow.
JML: Can if he stands his mind. This time it worked. Hope it lasts.
Andreas M: He has started proving his skills. Let´s see if he´s consistent.
Mikko: We´d hoped for even better. This result would be a minor though a boost for him.
Tanak: We knew he was fast.
Solberg2: Sweden is his favourite rally. But don´t underestimate him. As well as his brother.
Meeke: Good speed, but still a virgin.
Evans: Learning year. Should do WRC2 in 2014 instead, like Pontus will do.
Kubica: Virgin. And slowed down more and more during the rally. Will be good on tarmac. On gravel - we´ll see.
Breen: Well, another virgin on snow. Hopefully learned something.
Mads: Did what he should. If if wasn´t there he´d been 2nd. Approved.

Did I forget any of the top drivers?

Yes, Tidemand: Better performance in speed last year. But did what he should do this year. No faults except from deciding wrong setup from the beginning.

[N.O.T]

Who is that Grönholm and what do he know about WRC anyway?

apparently nothing about driving talent... maybe Loeb beat his ability to judge out of him apart from his spirit...

[A.F.F.]

[quote="A.F.F.":207vtrh4]Who is that Grönholm and what do he know about WRC anyway?

apparently nothing about driving talent... maybe Loeb beat his ability to judge out of him apart from his spirit...[/quote:207vtrh4]

Mr.Mousefart is desperately trying to pick a fight. You're adorable.

[Rallyper]

Here´s my list of current standards:
Ogier: fast but make mistakes. No PS points rubbed his confidence a bit. This time he drove like a virgin on snow.
JML: Can if he stands his mind. This time it worked. Hope it lasts.
Andreas M: He has started proving his skills. Let´s see if he´s consistent.
Mikko: We´d hoped for even better. This result would be a minor though a boost for him.
Tanak: We knew he was fast.
Solberg2: Sweden is his favourite rally. But don´t underestimate him. As well as his brother.
Meeke: Good speed, but still a virgin.
Evans: Learning year. Should do WRC2 in 2014 instead, like Pontus will do.
Kubica: Virgin. And slowed down more and more during the rally. Will be good on tarmac. On gravel - we´ll see.
Breen: Well, another virgin on snow. Hopefully learned something.
Mads: Did what he should. If if wasn´t there he´d been 2nd. Approved.

Did I forget any of the top drivers?

Yes, Tidemand: Better performance in speed last year. But did what he should do this year. No faults except from deciding wrong setup from the beginning.

Hehe, I forgot two :o :o

Neuville: Bad luck with stones hidden in snowbanks. Showed good pace and learned a lot.
Juho H: Also good pace and a 6 th maybe if wasn´t so unlucky with that hidden stone. Or maybe the car let him down. Hyundai comes out stronger after this event. I´m sure of that.

[N.O.T]

[quote="N.O.T":2340vk6s][quote="A.F.F.":2340vk6s]Who is that Grönholm and what do he know about WRC anyway?

apparently nothing about driving talent... maybe Loeb beat his ability to judge out of him apart from his spirit...[/quote:2340vk6s]

Mr.Mousefart is desperately trying to pick a fight. You're adorable.[/quote:2340vk6s]

why you say that ?? Gronholm was ecstatic about Kubica on snow... yet he managed to be both slow and reckless...

[Rallyper]

You must have in mind that it was way two different circumstances between test and the rally itself. I believe the difference is that big so you could compare it to dry gravel and wet gravel.
Grönholm evaluated Kubica out of test, not the competition in the coming rally, I would say.

[COD]

My thoughts after the two events:

Ogier: inthe league of his own. Nobody can challenge him on speed
Latvala: playing second violin. Was gifted the win in Sweden. Has shown more cinsistancy, so 2nd in the championship and maybe another win if Ogier gets into problems in some other event.
Mikkelsen: seeden was the event everyone expected him to fast. Now needs to show similar fight innother events
Meeke: more mature than before, will get more podiums
Östberg: steady, not blindingly fast. Consistant points for Citroen, maybe a few podiums
Hirvonen: lost case, will be taking 5-6th positions for most of the year, maybe a lucky podium in a rough rally if others have trouble
Evans: learning year, but I expect him to be more Matt Wilson 2 than anything else
Neuville: tries to go as fast as the car allows him to, many retirements due to new car, but impressive stage times and hopefully a few good results
Sordo: a good no 2 in the events he will do, will collect some points. Looked more confortable in the Huynday than in Citroen
Hänninen. Same as Sordo, but needs more fast tumes if he wants to get a seat for 2015
Kubica: when he starts to understand pacenotes better, he will be fast and surprise many. A podium on tarmac possible allready this year
Tänak: allways strong in sweden, other rallies will show if he has matured and can maintain speed throughout a rally. Good to learn in WRC 2 with less pressu
Tidemand: also a learning year in WRC 2 is needed,then show if he got it in WRC
Breen: hard to say, Sweden was not the one anyone expected him to shinw, although he git a lot of KM's in similar conditions in Liepaja. That in ind, very lame. But hope to see him again to judge better

That was the "regulars", a few notes on the "visitors"

Bouffier: was great in Monte, pity didn't see much what he could have donw in Liepaja. Hope he gets more events on WRC, he has the potential to surprise many
H. Solberg: a good run from an "old" man, hope he is back in 2015 Rally Sweden

I might have forgotten someone, but I'm old too :laugh:

[stefanvv]

Bring Loeb back :D. Current WRC level is just too low for his class :D
On the serious note, I think we can make more accurate assestemnets after Rally Portugal. Monte, Sweden, Mexico are just too specific to judge overall. Hyunday are still in development phase, one think is certain - Ogier again is the benchmark everyone else must aim. Some might say he makes too much mistakes, it is ok when you win the Rallies, well in Sweden it is difficult to make serious progress after a mistake, times are just too close and you can't really make some advantage of tyre choice, we saw that in Monte Carlo though - mistake with the tyres can be overcome with some measured risks.

[makinen_fan]

You must have in mind that it was way two different circumstances between test and the rally itself. I believe the difference is that big so you could compare it to dry gravel and wet gravel.
Grönholm evaluated Kubica out of test, not the competition in the coming rally, I would say.

What different circumstance do you mean? Snow in test vs slush/gravel in rally or the fact that he knows the road by heart during the test and he can go over the limit, something he cannot do in the rally?

He start proving that his ability were overrated by many (me included) so far

[Rallyper]

You must have in mind that it was way two different circumstances between test and the rally itself. I believe the difference is that big so you could compare it to dry gravel and wet gravel.
Grönholm evaluated Kubica out of test, not the competition in the coming rally, I would say.

What different circumstance do you mean? Snow in test vs slush/gravel in rally or the fact that he knows the road by heart during the test and he can go over the limit, something he cannot do in the rally?

He start proving that his ability were overrated by many (me included) so far

You might be nordic? I dont know. If you aren´t you cant judge one snowy condition from another. Put in speed and you´re far from expert.
I know difference. And it´s huge.

[makinen_fan]

You must have in mind that it was way two different circumstances between test and the rally itself. I believe the difference is that big so you could compare it to dry gravel and wet gravel.
Grönholm evaluated Kubica out of test, not the competition in the coming rally, I would say.

What different circumstance do you mean? Snow in test vs slush/gravel in rally or the fact that he knows the road by heart during the test and he can go over the limit, something he cannot do in the rally?

He start proving that his ability were overrated by many (me included) so far

You might be nordic? I dont know. If you aren´t you cant judge one snowy condition from another. Put in speed and you´re far from expert.
I know difference. And it´s huge.

You missed my point there. I was just asking you whether by your initial statement you meant the
1)differences in road conditions between test (he tested in more proper winter rally conditions) and the rally with the gravel coming through
or
2) that during a test he really learns the road ahead and finds where the grip is and he can really push, something he cannot do during the rally.

Anyway, I believe this is his biggest problem is his inability at the moment to read the road and push without mistakes. Also it can be seen from test videos he is way more aggressive than other drivers and he is on the limit with perfect braking and lines. But in the rally itself this is far from true, many times he takes weird lines because of small mistakes. As a circuit driver he still has the need to learn the road 100% for the perfect run IMO

[stefanvv]

Anyway, I believe this is his biggest problem is his inability at the moment to read the road and push without mistakes. Also it can be seen from test videos he is way more aggressive than other drivers and he is on the limit with perfect braking and lines. But in the rally itself this is far from true, many times he takes weird lines because of small mistakes. As a circuit driver he still has the need to learn the road 100% for the perfect run IMO
Very true

[Rallyper]

Both.
Are you from Finland?
The last comment I also agree, but have in mind test and race was two different things, having in mind when you judge.

[makinen_fan]

Are you from Finland?


No, Im not Nordic :) far from it, from Cyprus

[thuGG]

He start proving that his ability were overrated by many (me included) so far

Really? You can tell after two rallies? Seriously?
Jesus, if forum people were to decide on who deserves a drive then there would be no WRC at all.
And I thought that this forum is really sensible when it comes to rallying.

[Rallyper]

Are you from Finland?


No, Im not Nordic :) far from it, from Cyprus

All right mate. :)

[N.O.T]

He start proving that his ability were overrated by many (me included) so far

Really? You can tell after two rallies? Seriously?
Jesus, if forum people were to decide on who deserves a drive then there would be no WRC at all.
And I thought that this forum is really sensible when it comes to rallying.

3 Rallies in a wrc... far more in WRC2 and ERC... and in all of them where the competition consisted with drivers other than saudi tourists and nobodies he was out of the road all the time.

It is good to have him in the WRC but the glorification of Kubica is not justified yet...

[RS]

3 Rallies in a wrc... far more in WRC2 and ERC... and in all of them where the competition consisted with drivers other than saudi tourists and nobodies he was out of the road all the time.


Exactly, this is why he should have done ERC last year, so he could learn to drive at a proper speed.

He could have done recces for WRC and maybe one or two events there instead of the other way around.

[Toyoda]

Ogier streets ahead of everyone
The only slight competition he had is in a developing team