Now it is hospital shootings

[Spafranco]

Not satisfied with killing children and college students doctors are now a target.

Will anything come of this...NO. The reason: the NRA is so powerful that in a country of over 300 million people not one politician is prepared to take action. Not take away guns, just limit the number of bullets in magazines and the types of guns available. The loopholes closed.
In addition, the number of guns that should be available to anyone person at any given time either at home or the purchasing of limitless guns.

There is an author of fiction, Stephen Hunter, who is a ballistic expert and in many of his articles on this subject he is quite firm.

Too many guns.

[Mark]

Referring to: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... l-shooting (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/18/two-die-reno-hospital-shooting)

[Starter]

Referring to: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... l-shooting (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/18/two-die-reno-hospital-shooting)
Wow, that's a relief. From the title of the thread I had thought someone had shot a hospital. As opposed to someone being shot while in a hospital. Couldn't understand why anyone would do that.

On a serious note, I am hoping that the well documented shootings of the last couple years brings much, much more attention to the issue of detection, intervention and treatment of those with mental and emotional issues. The guns are just the tools used by these people and don't address the core problem. The mental health system in the US is primitive at best and highly ineffective.

[Spafranco]

There is more to be done than just psychological evaluation. Mental illness is oblique in many cases. Fundamentally, if the NRA would listen to the majority of it's members it would take steps to a/ reduce the capacity of magazines, b/ reduce the number and type of guns available to the public and c/enforce strict rules and regulations as was done in the UK and ROI during the 70's and 80's.
GB was under attack yet saw fit to make it illegal to own a rifle or handgun except in some cases. The same was true for the ROI where advocates stated that they would become victims of the loyalists groups. It did not happen. Crime in the UK did not escalate. Spain and the issues of the ETA. No criminal mischief any more than any other country and they are in a deep recession.

Fewer guns fewer deaths and injuries, fewer people in prison and the dramatic cost of care for the gun violence would drop dramatically.

[Roamy]

Not satisfied with killing children and college students doctors are now a target.

Will anything come of this...NO. The reason: the NRA is so powerful that in a country of over 300 million people not one politician is prepared to take action. Not take away guns, just limit the number of bullets in magazines and the types of guns available. The loopholes closed.
In addition, the number of guns that should be available to anyone person at any given time either at home or the purchasing of limitless guns.

There is an author of fiction, Stephen Hunter, who is a ballistic expert and in many of his articles on this subject he is quite firm.

Too many guns.

franco - I don't even know if you are a citizen but if you are I would suggest you look at other countries to move to. We are not giving up guns and it is only going to get worse for people like you as more and more people are packing. In addition the pendulem is going to swing very heavy to the right during the next elections. I think the liberals are going to be quite surprised at the next elections.

[Spafranco]

Not satisfied with killing children and college students doctors are now a target.

Will anything come of this...NO. The reason: the NRA is so powerful that in a country of over 300 million people not one politician is prepared to take action. Not take away guns, just limit the number of bullets in magazines and the types of guns available. The loopholes closed.
In addition, the number of guns that should be available to anyone person at any given time either at home or the purchasing of limitless guns.

There is an author of fiction, Stephen Hunter, who is a ballistic expert and in many of his articles on this subject he is quite firm.

Too many guns.

franco - I don't even know if you are a citizen but if you are I would suggest you look at other countries to move to. We are not giving up guns and it is only going to get worse for people like you as more and more people are packing. In addition the pendulem is going to swing very heavy to the right during the next elections. I think the liberals are going to be quite surprised at the next elections.

Oh for Gods sake shut up and stop acting like a child. My great great grandparents came to the US in 1826. You don't deserve to know that but to temper your outrage at someone taking your owns seem pertinent to my own feelings to validate myself.
As much as you seem to believe is pure trollop and delusional stop posting on threads where not me or any others suggessted you give up you phallic symbol.

[Jag_Warrior]

IMO, too many guns in the wrong hands, is really the primary issue that we face here. And to be honest, I believe that's a much harder nut to crack than simply saying there are too many guns in the U.S. The fact is, a disproportionate amount of the violent crime (including gun violence, of course) is committed by people who have already been convicted of one or more violent crimes. And we already have Federal laws which prohibit those individuals from owning or possessing firearms. To criminals, laws are simply words on pieces of paper. They pay no attention to them. So rather than focusing on all gun owners or the types of weapons, why not focus on the group(s) that are the major contributors to our issues: convicted criminals and mentally unstable people with plain Jane handguns.

And while the shootings involving long weapons with high capacity magazines are the ones that make the headlines, and they are indeed tragic, they are fairly atypical of the gun crimes that take place here. Most gun crimes do not involve AK47s or AR15s. These weapons are more like the Great White sharks of the gun world. When one of them is involved in a shooting, every news outlet rolls out the Live @ 5 cameras.

My position is, and has always been, that if law enforcement and law makers would seriously focus on the criminal element and those with mental/emotional issues gaining access to weapons, which they are prohibited from having, we actually could make a meaningful reduction in violent crime in this country. It wouldn't be eliminated, but I am sure that major reductions could be gained. But we can look at Chicago as a good example of what is wrong here. Unlike New York, when a prohibited person is found in possession of a firearm in Chicago, the tendency has been for the police to seize the weapon and either let the person go or they get a light tap on the wrist if they are convicted - and they tend to only go to trial if they are committing some other crime, in addition to being in possession of a prohibited firearm. While in New York, as I understand it, there is an automatic five year prison sentence applied upon conviction. And guess which city has a lower violent crime rate, especially crimes involving firearms? You got it, New York. About 20 years ago, my state went the same route as New York. Violent crime around Richmond, VA was skyrocketing, with drug dealers lighting up the night like the 4th of July. But once we began imposing automatic prison sentences for people found in possession of drugs and guns, about the worst problem they had in Richmond was drug dealers beating each other up with sticks - no joke. We got serious and the problem was reduced.

It's all about laying aside emotions and facing the actual, major contributors to an issue, which make themselves clear through unemotional data analysis (something politicians typically have little ability to do). Root cause analysis, as my kind calls it. It's not as sexy as running or watching stories about the Great White sharks, but it would likely gain more desired results.

Just my 2 cents...

[webberf1]

Oh come on, if they stop selling to rednecks, psychopaths and criminals, the only remaining customers of American weapons will be the military (they already have enough) and third world dictators (who usually end up selling half of them to al Qaeda and al Shabab via the black market anyway) so they can keep on 'freeing the shit' out of their people.

[Jag_Warrior]

Then I guess the only remaining question is: am I a redneck, a psychopath or a criminal? Possibly I am all three, or just a combination of two of those pejorative categories?

You see, this is another clear example of why sensible gun laws cannot be enacted or enforced in the United States: the various factions prefer to call people names, rather than, as I said, use objective data analysis to actually address agreed upon problems. It happens on both sides, as many gun owners think that those in favor of gun control measures are limp-wristed pinkos or whatever. But there is no doubt, and we've seen it with everything from the health care debate to the gun control debate, once the demonization and childish name calling begins, the chances for a true debate vanish.

“Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.” -- Friedrich Nietzsche

[airshifter]

Well said Jag. I didn't realize we shared a state, and I remember some of the news stories about the shake ups and how it affected the more violent areas.

Personally I'd be all behind much harder laws if they affect the criminal element much earlier than those that own guns legally. I'd really have no issue with a requirement for some type of annual or semi annual accounting for weapons, or even with registrations of all weapons if I knew it wouldn't later be used to take my weapons. With the government in the state it is now, and will probably remain, my official statement to the NSA and everyone else watching is that I own no weapons at all. Just make sure you knock and identify yourself properly if you look shady, just to make sure I don't ninja attack with a baseball bat. :)

As for the stereotypes, I know loads of people that might qualify as "rednecks" and the vast majority of them I would trust around guns. Being that many of them grew up hunting and fishing, they probably have much more respect for the use of lethal force than the average Joe does, or for that matter much more than people who have never been around guns and somehow determine that guns hurt people, but the criminals using them play no role in the matter.


But see Jag, if people used common sense and statistical data, they wouldn't hate assault weapons so much. Removed of the emotion and faced with facts, they would probably hate the cheap .25 and .22 caliber handguns with low capacities that are used in many, many, many violent crimes. And faced with facts they would be forced to differentiate between the criminals and the huge majority of legal and lawful gun owners who use them for a variety of reasons without issue. Since many want to group the criminal and law abiding owners together so they can cry "Guns kill people!" then the rest of the facts are pretty much off the table too.... it just doesn't suit what the anti gun crowd wants.


On a related note, it's very fortunate that the vast majority of people who go nuts with a weapon are poorly trained and educated in any real shooting or military tactics. I'd bet money someone with a military, cop, or hunting background could do a lot more damage with one of the "safer low capacity/small caliber/etc" weapons in the same situation. Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations.

[TheFamousEccles]

" Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations"

It's statements like this that convince me it's no use discussing gun control with Americans.

[Starter]

" Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations"

It's statements like this that convince me it's no use discussing gun control with Americans.
Why? Not interested in facts? ;)

[D-Type]

" Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations"

It's statements like this that convince me it's no use discussing gun control with Americans.
Why? Not interested in facts? ;)
That is not a fact - it is an opinion.

[airshifter]

" Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations"

It's statements like this that convince me it's no use discussing gun control with Americans.

Well certainly don't go look at the facts, as they will show that guns are used a great many times by law abiding citizens as a crime deterrent, even when they don't have to shoot. There is direct evidence that states allowing concealed carry weapons have a drop in violent crimes, as well as mounds of evidence that violent crimes almost cease to exist in areas where open carry of guns is common.

Quite a few procedures used in the US by cops are a result of the Newhall Masacre, where a couple of well armed and trained thugs decided to shoot it out with the cops. The first hit scored on said thugs was by a civilian who came to assist the cops.

[Starter]

" Likewise, if more people carried on a regular basis and were well trained, the chances would be much higher that a single well placed shot would end a lot more crime situations"

It's statements like this that convince me it's no use discussing gun control with Americans.
Why? Not interested in facts? ;)
That is not a fact - it is an opinion.
Yes it is. I was referring to this part - "the chances would be much higher" (emphasis mine).

[Valve Bounce]

Not satisfied with killing children and college students doctors are now a target.

Will anything come of this...NO. The reason: the NRA is so powerful that in a country of over 300 million people not one politician is prepared to take action. Not take away guns, just limit the number of bullets in magazines and the types of guns available. The loopholes closed.
In addition, the number of guns that should be available to anyone person at any given time either at home or the purchasing of limitless guns.

There is an author of fiction, Stephen Hunter, who is a ballistic expert and in many of his articles on this subject he is quite firm.

Too many guns.

unfortunately, the NRA has a very powerful lobby, and thanks to the internet, this power has increased dramatically. Any politician who does not conform with their wishes or line of action get's voted out. There is no solution that I can think of. Maybe if they shot Brett Lee with buckshot, it would make me feel better.

[Starter]

unfortunately, the NRA has a very powerful lobby, and thanks to the internet, this power has increased dramatically. Any politician who does not conform with their wishes or line of action get's voted out. There is no solution that I can think of. Maybe if they shot Brett Lee with buckshot, it would make me feel better.
Lets see if we can follow your reasoning here:

"unfortunately, the NRA has a very powerful lobby, and thanks to the internet, this power has increased dramatically." Any organization only has power if there is support behind it. Otherwise it is the classic "paper tiger". So you are saying it was powerful before the internet and now is even more so. That means that there are an awful lot of people supporting it.

"Any politician who does not conform with their wishes or line of action get's voted out." That's pretty much the way a democracy works. What the voting majority wants, that's what they get.

I gather you don't support that majority view. Sorry about that. There are a lot of majority positions I don't support either and I have to live with it too.

[Valve Bounce]

Very very good reply, Skater. The point I make is simply that the NRA can mobilise a huge number of voters who normally couldn't give a shyte about politics, but will vote against any politician who tries to introduce any safety measures into gun control. IF that's your idea of democracy, then I am very happy we don't have the NRA controlling our democracy in Australia.

[webberf1]

Very very good reply, Skater. The point I make is simply that the NRA can mobilise a huge number of voters who normally couldn't give a shyte about politics, but will vote against any politician who tries to introduce any safety measures into gun control. IF that's your idea of democracy, then I am very happy we don't have the NRA controlling our democracy in Australia.
No, we're much better off. We have News Ltd., the mining industry, the alcohol industry and the gambling industry doing that job.

At best, we can claim that our democracy is only slightly less destroyed than in America or Europe. i.e. nothing at all to be proud of.

[Rollo]

Not any more we can't.
The privatisation of Australia Post, Medicare, the ABC and SBS, have all been suggested by the IPA. Holden and Ford have vowed to end production in Australia by 2017 and the NBN will never do as intended.

But at least we've "stopped the boats"... well not really, but the government has stopped reporting on them, and disbanded AUSAID and appointed former IPA member Tim Wilson to the head of the Human Rights Commission, an organisation which he called for the abolition of. At the same time child care workers lost their appeal to have their minimum wage raised because of "union interference" whilst at the same time a former head of the Business Council of Australia is now an advisor to the PM.

Australia has democracy? Ha. If you have a post code between 2000-2108, 3000-3030, 3120-3125, 6000-6009, you own the politicians. And if you're Clive Palmer, you are one.

[Valve Bounce]

The good thing about most of the shootings these days is that the gangsters are shooting each other and themselves.

[Roamy]

I can't wait until on of these "Knockout" punks gets capped by a armed citizen !!!

[Spafranco]

I can't wait until on of these "Knockout" punks gets capped by a armed citizen !!!

Yes, but in the meantime you will ,like all your pals wait and listen to the tally of death as it mounts and you and your "armed citizens", by proxy cheer them on(gun nuts). Since there are so many guns in this country it is rather disconcerting that all these crimes take place,yet the hew and cry of the masses is to remain as is without any changes to the laws. So where are you? All hiding when faced with the possibility of death. Let five and seven year old children die who have not even had a chance to be relevant it seems. That is until they died.

[webberf1]

I can't wait until on of these "Knockout" punks gets capped by a armed citizen !!!

Yes, but in the meantime you will ,like all your pals wait and listen to the tally of death as it mounts and you and your "armed citizens", by proxy cheer them on(gun nuts). Since there are so many guns in this country it is rather disconcerting that all these crimes take place,yet the hew and cry of the masses is to remain as is without any changes to the laws. So where are you? All hiding when faced with the possibility of death. Let five and seven year old children die who have not even had a chance to be relevant it seems. That is until they died.
None of which is going to stop little Trayvons and Zimmermen from killing each other. Sorry buddy, its back to the drawing board for you ;)

Must've been a big new year...

[Spafranco]

I can't wait until on of these "Knockout" punks gets capped by a armed citizen !!!

Yes, but in the meantime you will ,like all your pals wait and listen to the tally of death as it mounts and you and your "armed citizens", by proxy cheer them on(gun nuts). Since there are so many guns in this country it is rather disconcerting that all these crimes take place,yet the hew and cry of the masses is to remain as is without any changes to the laws. So where are you? All hiding when faced with the possibility of death. Let five and seven year old children die who have not even had a chance to be relevant it seems. That is until they died.
None of which is going to stop little Trayvons and Zimmermen from killing each other. Sorry buddy, its back to the drawing board for you ;)

Must've been a big new year...

"ignorance is bliss for those that feel inadequate in life or have a deluded sense of importance". I feel that this is indicative of so many that frequent this forum, excluding myself and many others of course, but pointing the finger,so to speak, at those that deserve it.

[webberf1]

"ignorance is bliss for those that feel inadequate in life or have a deluded sense of importance". I feel that this is indicative of so many that frequent this forum, excluding myself and many others of course, but pointing the finger,so to speak, at those that deserve it.
Wow, we got a real life Randy Marsh here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoVWPxx2 ... ata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoVWPxx2s00&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

You would excuse yourself, wouldn't you.

[Spafranco]

"ignorance is bliss for those that feel inadequate in life or have a deluded sense of importance". I feel that this is indicative of so many that frequent this forum, excluding myself and many others of course, but pointing the finger,so to speak, at those that deserve it.
Wow, we got a real life Randy Marsh here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoVWPxx2 ... ata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoVWPxx2s00&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

You would excuse yourself, wouldn't you.

Idiots that use a cartoon to disparage a poster believing in the theoretical that they speak with wisdom at the same time displaying for all and sundry a psychotic disregard for serious discussion. Webber, You should PM me if you want to make personal attacks. Allow the other posters a minutiae of intelligent debate. I'll bet you won't do this as narcissism needs an audience.

[Spafranco]

Here it goes again. A couple of teenagers shot at school today. How long is it going to take for the NRA and it's core hardliners as well as the population at large recognize the extreme dangers posed by the easy access to, the "I don't care what you do with it "from one buddy to another sale' to having those that love and cherish their guns to take a step back and think out side of the box.
I have not read or listened to anyone taking away all of persons guns. Just a few types that are unnecessary for a person to own. If they were to own them, they would have to have them at a secure location. Reduce the clips.

Until it something tragic happens to a gun owner such as a friend of mine who found his fathers gun while he played with three of his pals. He shot himself under the zygomatic bone and lodging in the nuchal area. Unbelievably, he survived. No organs damaged but a persistent ringing in his ears.
As the range he shot himself at he should be dead and falls into the 99% percentile. Amazing.

[Rollo]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justi ... -shooting/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/)
It started with a father sending text messages to his daughter during the previews of a movie.
It ended with the 43-year-old man shot dead amid the theater seats, and a 71-year-old retired police officer in custody.
The shooting Monday during a 1:20 p.m. showing of "Lone Survivor" at a Wesley Chapel, Florida, movie theater escalated from an objection to cell phone use, to a series of arguments, to the sudden and deadly shooting, according to police and witnesses.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear the movie previews over the sound of freedom.

[Bagwan]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/
It started with a father sending text messages to his daughter during the previews of a movie.
It ended with the 43-year-old man shot dead amid the theater seats, and a 71-year-old retired police officer in custody.
The shooting Monday during a 1:20 p.m. showing of "Lone Survivor" at a Wesley Chapel, Florida, movie theater escalated from an objection to cell phone use, to a series of arguments, to the sudden and deadly shooting, according to police and witnesses.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear the movie previews over the sound of freedom.

Sounds eerily similar to a scene from the movie "God Bless America" .
See it if you can find it . Good movie .

[Starter]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/
It started with a father sending text messages to his daughter during the previews of a movie.
It ended with the 43-year-old man shot dead amid the theater seats, and a 71-year-old retired police officer in custody.
The shooting Monday during a 1:20 p.m. showing of "Lone Survivor" at a Wesley Chapel, Florida, movie theater escalated from an objection to cell phone use, to a series of arguments, to the sudden and deadly shooting, according to police and witnesses.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear the movie previews over the sound of freedom.
Yes, we definitely must take the guns out of the hands of those unstable police officers.

[Spafranco]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/
It started with a father sending text messages to his daughter during the previews of a movie.
It ended with the 43-year-old man shot dead amid the theater seats, and a 71-year-old retired police officer in custody.
The shooting Monday during a 1:20 p.m. showing of "Lone Survivor" at a Wesley Chapel, Florida, movie theater escalated from an objection to cell phone use, to a series of arguments, to the sudden and deadly shooting, according to police and witnesses.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear the movie previews over the sound of freedom.
Yes, we definitely must take the guns out of the hands of those unstable police officers.

Certainly take the guns away from someone that can't address a verbal issue without the ultimate violence. See, once again you protect the gun and gun owner over the victim.

[555-04Q2]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/
It started with a father sending text messages to his daughter during the previews of a movie.
It ended with the 43-year-old man shot dead amid the theater seats, and a 71-year-old retired police officer in custody.
The shooting Monday during a 1:20 p.m. showing of "Lone Survivor" at a Wesley Chapel, Florida, movie theater escalated from an objection to cell phone use, to a series of arguments, to the sudden and deadly shooting, according to police and witnesses.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear the movie previews over the sound of freedom.

One of the reasons I don't go to the movies anymore, pricks on their cellphones after you paid good money to be there. If you can't go 2 hours without using your phone, you need to get a life!!!!!

[Roamy]

I can't wait until on of these "Knockout" punks gets capped by a armed citizen !!!

Yes, but in the meantime you will ,like all your pals wait and listen to the tally of death as it mounts and you and your "armed citizens", by proxy cheer them on(gun nuts). Since there are so many guns in this country it is rather disconcerting that all these crimes take place,yet the hew and cry of the masses is to remain as is without any changes to the laws. So where are you? All hiding when faced with the possibility of death. Let five and seven year old children die who have not even had a chance to be relevant it seems. That is until they died.

dude have you check out Mexico 70,000 dead in six years. Maybe you should post in Spanish

[airshifter]

That's impossible Roamy. Everyone knows that strict guns laws as they exist in Mexico will prevent guns deaths. :laugh: