Scottish Independence

[Mark]

I remember a thread with this title was one of the last threads posted on the old vbulletin forum back in December 2006!

But it's now finally coming to pass with detailed proposals being laid out today for the referendum in September 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-25088251 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25088251)

[555-04Q2]

A bit off the subject, but a few weeks ago when our Boks played the Scots I remembered how great the Scottish national anthem is :) Nice slow swaying beat and words that well up in the chest. A proud nation with a tumultuous history.

[gadjo_dilo]

I remember a thread with this title was one of the last threads posted on the old vbulletin forum back in December 2006!
You've got a bad memory. It was in 2009. :p

http://www.motorsportforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=136005

[henners88]

Free them from our evil English rule!!!

I'm sure £1000 a year more in income tax is worth all that. :D

[Mark]

I remember a thread with this title was one of the last threads posted on the old vbulletin forum back in December 2006!
You've got a bad memory. It was in 2009. :p

http://www.motorsportforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=136005

There's been more than one ;)

[Tazio]

The Scottish government said Scotland's finances were healthier than those of the UK, providing a strong foundation to put the focus of the referendum campaign on Scotland's future.


But can they balance their budget? Oh that's right they're Scots! :D :devil: ;)

[Spafranco]

Any attempt even the most honorable one at an independent Scotland would end the same way as Northern Ireland.
All one has to do is view the sectarian divide. It is vitriolic just as it is in Northern Ireland.

[Gregor-y]

Would they switch to the Euro, too?

[henners88]

Would they switch to the Euro, too?
No because they'd have to take on Europe's debt. It would have to remain Bank of England.

[Mark]

Would they switch to the Euro, too?
No because they'd have to take on Europe's debt. It would have to remain Bank of England.

The Deputy First Minister was basically saying this morning that they were prepared to take their share of the UK debt as long as they were able to remain in currency union. She didn't say that they would wash their hands of it if they didn't keep the pound but it was strongly implied.

[Rollo]

Would they switch to the Euro, too?

Most emphatically not.

Scottish banks currently have the power to issue currency based on the reserves that they hold. If Scotland were to join the Euro, Scottish banks would be forced to buy back all the currency on issue and second to that, there is no way in Hades that Brussels would ever allow private firms in Scotland to issue Euros.

Besides which, with all the revenues from gas and oil, the independent Scottish Pound would in all likelihood be the hardest currency... IN THE WORLD*
They wouldn't just have a hard currency they'd have a well-hard currency.

*these last three words are best said in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson.

[Spafranco]

Is there a militant wing to the SLP?

[D-Type]

There was at one time. A friend of mine who was an SNP member claimed that a senior member had shown him a secret arsenal.

[driveace]

It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !

[henners88]

It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !
I totally agree with you, but sadly there are a percentage of people who will vote on this not actually knowing any of the changes it brings. I work with a Scottish girl who said she wishes she could still vote as she'd vote in favour. Her reason? She hates the English (apart from all her English friends) and wants to see Scotland as an independent country. You go into any detail about it though and she hasn't a clue. I know other Scots who are deeply against it and understand the ramifications. Personally I am against it, but if it does go ahead, it needs to be total independence rather than the rest of the UK continuing to support them both financially in the long term. I get the impression this change is driven more by pride than logic. :)

[Rudy Tamasz]

It won't happen !
Alex Salmond is a dreamer ,they cannot afford to be independent it would be too expensive,and require big tax rises too
The only people who would vote for it are the young !

Being independent pays off in the long term perspective. If you play your cards skillfully, that is. It's been 22 years since the Soviet Union fell apart and Belarus became independent. We've become much better off since then. We are a small economy, but we invest strategically in infrastructure, healthcare etc. As a result, the quality of life is higher than that in most post-Soviet countries. Independence doesn't guarantee you anything but it gives you an opportunity. That's whats it's about.

[Spafranco]

Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!

[Mark]

Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!

No; not even close. There are some issues in Glasgow, but this is pretty isolated and in any case they all identify as Scottish and not with another country as in Northern Ireland's case.

Having visited Glasgow and Belfast - they don't have much in common in that regard!

[Gregor-y]

I thought it kind of odd that Irish sectionalism would be expressed in terms of Scottish football teams. But nothing else in Irish sectionalism makes much sense anymore, either. Granted I haven't been through the Northern Ireland since 2001. The looks my rental with Cork plates got!

[henners88]

Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
There are plenty of examples like Glasgow in the UK where football teams divide allegiance relating to religion but it's nothing like Northern Ireland I can assure you. Not even in the same ball park.

[D-Type]

Would it not be something of a NI debacle? Just viewing some documentaries with respect to the two soccer teams in Glasgow and it appears as though Sectarianism is rife in Glasgow. Is that the makeup of Scotland? Loyalist and Catholic Nationalists!
There are plenty of examples like Glasgow in the UK where football teams divide allegiance relating to religion but it's nothing like Northern Ireland I can assure you. Not even in the same ball park.
Local rivalries - yes. But based on religious sectarianism - where? Hearts and Hibs, and where else? Liverpool & Everton, Birmingham City & Aston Villa, Dundee & Dundee United, Sheffield United & Sheffield Wednesday, and Manchester United & Manchester City are purely local rivalries and not sectarian.

[J4MIE]

My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...

Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.

[henners88]

Relating to religion as in once upon a time in history, not meaning that is the cause these days. 'Not in the same ball park'.

[Mark]

Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.

Yeah from what I've read it's residency that counts. So there are many Scottish such as yourself who won't be able to vote. But many non-Scottish who are living in Scotland who can.

[Spafranco]

My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...

Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.

All the sentiments are laudable but the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406 (http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/football-teams-must-do-more-to-tackle-sectarianism-1-3232406)

[D-Type]

My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...

Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.

All the sentiments are laudable but the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406 (http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/football-teams-must-do-more-to-tackle-sectarianism-1-3232406)
That's the myth. In reality, in football sectarianism is confined to some of the followers of Rangers and Celtic. It does not extend to other teams or throughout football in Scotland. Read the Scotsman article and you'll see that it only refers to Rangers and Celtic.

[Rollo]

I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.

[Spafranco]

My guess is that most Rangers or Celtic fans don't have a clue about religion, never mind the intracasies of it all. I remember standing in a packed train on my way home (from the only football match I have ever been to!) from Celtic Park and had to laugh at the fans behaviour...

Anyway, as I now live in England I don't get a vote (probably) and don't really know the ins and outs of it all but I just don't think I could bring myself to vote against it.

All the sentiments are laudable but the fact remains that there is a deep rift in terms of religion and the Scottish game.
Just a cursory look and I found numerous topics on the very aspect of sectarianism.
I recognize that quite a bit of it is nationalistic fervor but that this takes on as a catalyst, one's religion, whether it be practiced by the individuals or not is one that is rooted in the Catholicism and Protestantism of the opposing teams and their origins.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3232406 (http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/football-teams-must-do-more-to-tackle-sectarianism-1-3232406)
That's the myth. In reality, in football sectarianism is confined to some of the followers of Rangers and Celtic. It does not extend to other teams or throughout football in Scotland. Read the Scotsman article and you'll see that it only refers to Rangers and Celtic.
I have read the article and I have also read others. There are many teams that are known as Catholic and Protestant. The ones I read about are Dundee and Dundee United, Hibernian and Hearts and there was one or two others.
I can give you the links.

[Spafranco]

I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.
I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)

For a prolonged period, British armed forces in uniform waved, clapped, danced, did the “bouncy” and snapped their selfies in front of fans – as the Ibrox faithful went through their repertoire of Rule Britannia, Derry’s Walls, The Sash and so forth. A number of chants praised the Northern Irish paramilitary organisation the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons ... xM7Q6.dpuf (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182#sthash.nmexM7Q6.dpuf)
It’s not clear whether or not the scores of uniformed soldiers actually joined in with the singing – but they very much joined in in every other conceivable way, lending their obvious and very public support to a litany of sectarian songs. It was a party – a loud, sectarian, political party. The British Army, air force and navy were taking sides. The evidence is all there, all over YouTube (see above), posted by loyal Rangers fans who thought it was all an innocent grand day out. - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons ... xM7Q6.dpuf (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182#sthash.nmexM7Q6.dpuf)

[Rollo]

I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)

The Rangers & Celtic, Celtic & Rangers (hooray boo, boo hooray - pick your own side) sectarian question rings on both sides of the divide and has done for a very long time. And no, I don't think that Rangers are passive at all - how can you say that when this sort of carry on happens in the colour of blue?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zvwmqpj088k/UPRD2wEVVAI/AAAAAAAAEJI/wQBChO1bnjI/s1600/2zqvbep.jpg



I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.

I have a feeling that most of violence which happens are probably fly-ins but I do not know the percentage. No, I do not live in the UK, I live in HM Prison - New South Wales (est 1788).

[henners88]

You simply can't read internet articles to gage a true feeling of what it like to live here and what isolated troubles we have here and there. The rivalry Rangers and Celtic have does not spread throughout Scotland and very rarely even gets a mention on the news. It's no different from the rivalries up and down the country and isn't ready to flair up into a civil war just yet.

[Spafranco]

You simply can't read internet articles to gage a true feeling of what it like to live here and what isolated troubles we have here and there. The rivalry Rangers and Celtic have does not spread throughout Scotland and very rarely even gets a mention on the news. It's no different from the rivalries up and down the country and isn't ready to flair up into a civil war just yet.

Internet articles written by respected journalists certainly add credence to the article. There is quite a lot more involved when the manager of Glasgow Celtic has to have a twenty four hour security detail.
If Rangers and Celtic are just involved in the rivalry aspect of the game then woe is me that acceptance of death as a result of this that I can accept this with a blase type of attitude.

[Spafranco]

I can't believe you wrote that. Are you not in GB? I have many of your well thought out posts and I am surprised with the tenor of your post. Although you mention Rangers it was as though in a passive sense whereas Celtic were a team importing radicals from Ireland to cause trouble.
This is from Channel Four England (I believe)

The Rangers & Celtic, Celtic & Rangers (hooray boo, boo hooray - pick your own side) sectarian question rings on both sides of the divide and has done for a very long time. And no, I don't think that Rangers are passive at all - how can you say that when this sort of carry on happens in the colour of blue?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zvwmqpj088k/UPRD2wEVVAI/AAAAAAAAEJI/wQBChO1bnjI/s1600/2zqvbep.jpg



I would like to know what percentage of sectarian violence to do with Rangers and Celtic is actually perpetrated by Irish and Northern Irish nationals who fly to Glasgow for the weekend.

I have a feeling that most of violence which happens are probably fly-ins but I do not know the percentage. No, I do not live in the UK, I live in HM Prison - New South Wales (est 1788).

Well, I am glad to see you recognize the sectarianism as it was denied that it even existed by many others.
I hope you get out of prison soon:)

[D-Type]

Yes, sectarianism does exist in Scotland. Yes, this manifests itself in the Rangers/Celtic 'thing'.
But, although both Hibs and Dundee united had their origins as clubs for Irish immigrants, both have lost all trace of their origins and there is no ethnic or sectarian element in the build up of their support. These days the rivalry between teams is purely a function of local geography.
In the four years I spent in Dundee, the only times you heard sectarian chants and songs were when one of the "Old Firm" were playing one of the local teams.

[Spafranco]

Isn't it ludicrous that El Salvador and Honduras went to war over WC qualifying.
A question to the football (soccer) fans; is it a hindrance to Ranger and Celtic that having their issues and because of these they will never be allowed to join the EPL? Look at Swansea and Cardiff. Great to see them there.
Our TV coverage here took a nose dive when FSC lost to NBC to cover the games. I hate it. They actually give results of games they are showing later in the day. No warning.
Suarez is the Pele of the century.

[henners88]

Next time you are in the UK Spa I'll take you to see a London derby where religion is barely even on the minds of fans who want to tear each other to shreds! lol. There are plenty of fans of football clubs who are also associated with groups like the EDL but thankfully not enough to cause stability trouble for our society. I used to have a season ticket for Anfield in the late 90's and saw plenty of ill feeling toward Everton and Man Utd but I seriously doubt these people would suddenly cause the type of trouble we have seen in NI should the country become independent. Just my opinion of course and if Scotland get independence, we'll have to see.

[Mark]

This is true; anywhere you have two football clubs in the same locale it's the same story. Near me there's Newcastle and Sunderland, whenever they play each other there's always load of trouble from the dregs of society who want to fight because of football loyalties. Religion has nothing to do with it.

[Spafranco]

Next time you are in the UK Spa I'll take you to see a London derby where religion is barely even on the minds of fans who want to tear each other to shreds! lol. There are plenty of fans of football clubs who are also associated with groups like the EDL but thankfully not enough to cause stability trouble for our society. I used to have a season ticket for Anfield in the late 90's and saw plenty of ill feeling toward Everton and Man Utd but I seriously doubt these people would suddenly cause the type of trouble we have seen in NI should the country become independent. Just my opinion of course and if Scotland get independence, we'll have to see.

Thanks for the invite Henner. When in the States I'll bring you to a College SEC (South Conference) or a pro game. The Bears or DA BAAAAYER'S.

I loved football growing up as my sister married an older guy who once played for Oxford Utd, Birmingham and Burnley. I became a Chelsea fan and remember the names of players I only got to see when they retired or played in the World Cup.
Peter Bonetti, Osgood, Webb, Dunphy (sic) Tambling , Hutchinson, Hudson and others I can't recall at this stage.

[Spafranco]

This is true; anywhere you have two football clubs in the same locale it's the same story. Near me there's Newcastle and Sunderland, whenever they play each other there's always load of trouble from the dregs of society who want to fight because of football loyalties. Religion has nothing to do with it.

I saw a documentary not long ago from the 80's I think. It was about football supporter violence in English Football. Something You don't hear much about these days. At least nowadays. I
t was a badge of honor for some here in the US to bash 'soocer' as it was a sissy game. One have been interesting to see Bubba chasing Messi or Suarez or the Welsh kid at Real Madrid. We know who the sissy would be.Now that we are doing well and have many players in the EPL it is getting a better foothold.

To the documentary; it was about Milwall. Nigh on impossible to believe that the idiots claimed never to see a game. Their intent was to 'cause problems with the other supports.

[Mark]

It was a massive problem in the 1980's and English clubs ended up banned from European competition for a good while because of the actions of the 'fans'. It's been brought under control to a large degree by police targetting the known troublemakers and banning them from town centres etc while games are on; this has proven quite effective. However there are still problems, Newcastle supporters attempting to attack Sunderland supporters as they got onto trains at Newcastle station being one example; in many cases away fans have to be bussed in protected by a police cordon; pretty crazy.

[D-Type]

When people write "EPL", what do they mean? English Premier League?

[Roamy]

You guys are so barbaric they should ban football in the EU and other parts of the world too.

[555-04Q2]

You guys are so barbaric they should ban football in the EU and other parts of the world too.

It is crazy how people in EU go crazy over a sport, especially a crappy one like soccer :shock:

It's just a game gentlemen :)

[Roamy]

You guys are so barbaric they should ban football in the EU and other parts of the world too.

It is crazy how people in EU go crazy over a sport, especially a crappy one like soccer :shock:

It's just a game gentlemen :)

yes they make the Oakland Raiders look like choir boys

[Rudy Tamasz]

Yep, we poor Euros don't live in paradise countries like SA and the U.S. We don't have such beautiful women, excellent beer and great music on radio. All we can do is go to crappy soccer games and vent our frustration. And now I'm going to eat worms...

[henners88]

When people write "EPL", what do they mean? English Premier League?
Yes that is correct. SPL is Scottish Premier League too. :)

[Mihai]

I believe Scottish independence will boost further ethnic segregation movements throughout Europe. Catalonia comes to mind first, but many more parts of European sovereign states would want to follow Scotland's footsteps. Perhaps it's a counter-reaction to the EU enlargement. You don't find that many links to your fellow European citizens, so you turn back to your core ethnic group as a recluse.

Though I think reason will prevail in the Scottish referendum, that is staying within the UK. At least opening embassies all over the world doesn't come cheap for the proverbial Scots. ;)

[Starter]

The Balkanization of many parts of the world has been going on for some time. It may be a reaction to the last century of increasing consolidation of political/national/religious boundaries. While there are many benefits to centralization, the down side is a loss of "community" and the feeling that, as an individual, you have some sort of identity and control over your surroundings.

[Spafranco]

The Balkanization of many parts of the world has been going on for some time. It may be a reaction to the last century of increasing consolidation of political/national/religious boundaries. While there are many benefits to centralization, the down side is a loss of "community" and the feeling that, as an individual, you have some sort of identity and control over your surroundings.
I agree with you here. As you pointed out vs-a-vie the Balkans the USSR has had a similar fate. Then we have Germany and the Czech Republic and Sovakia.
Is Catalonia unstable? The Basque region with the ETA groups are quite fanatical. Northern Ireland is now starting a new area of debate in it's loyalist groups wanting/desiring through force to fly the Union Jack wherever they please. It is seen as an attempt to reengage the Provisional IRA. That would be madness.

[Mark]

The big difference is that the UK government has always said that if any part of the UK wishes to leave, then it may do so. A very different situation to Spain which is doing all it can to stop a referendum in Catalonia; to the extent of trying to scupper Scottish Independence lest it set a precedent.

The history of Europe has been one of redrawing borders on a regular basis, sometimes as the result of violence, sometimes not. States seperate but they often come together too. Although we now have more countries, they are bound closer together through the European Union than some seemingly singular states did in the past - Austria-Hungary comes to mind.

[donKey jote]

Spain which is doing all it can to stop a referendum in Catalonia

donkey Mariano and his corrupt accolites are doing all they can to stop it... while donkey Mas is doing all he can to keep attention on the referendum and bickering with Madrid, and away from his own corrupt catalan donkey scandals...

bunch of donkeys the lot of them ! :dozey:

[steveaki13]

I have been watching the news this evening and they keep on saying that Scottish want to share the British Pound.

Can someone explain to me why it would benefit either to share a currency with a foreign nation. Once Independent you are alone, I would have thought that means if an economic disaster happens to your country that you shouldn't have to put responsibility onto another nation.

For me if this all goes ahead, the British Government would surely not want to have to run all actions and dealings past Scotland?

I would prefer personally if Scotland become independent then it is completely independent and thus has to use an independent currency. Independence should mean independence. Not have protection from someone else.

All this by the way is the same the other way round.

[henners88]

I totally agree Steve, its not independence until they actually go independent and go it completely alone.
Nationalism seems OK so long as only certain countries promote it and I don't feel comfortable with that.

[Mark]

I have been watching the news this evening and they keep on saying that Scottish want to share the British Pound.

Can someone explain to me why it would benefit either to share a currency with a foreign nation. Once Independent you are alone, I would have thought that means if an economic disaster happens to your country that you shouldn't have to put responsibility onto another nation.

For me if this all goes ahead, the British Government would surely not want to have to run all actions and dealings past Scotland?

I would prefer personally if Scotland become independent then it is completely independent and thus has to use an independent currency. Independence should mean independence. Not have protection from someone else.

All this by the way is the same the other way round.

They want to keep the pound for the same reason EU countries wanted to adopt the Euro, as it makes trade between the two countries much easier. Having to change currency on crossing the border would be a major headache, that and given that the currency can vary in price with respect to each other it can mean that, for example if you're a manufacturing company based in Scotland and so want to pay your workforce in Scottish pounds, but your main market is in England so the money you get for your goods will vary. Better to have this fixed.

Of course it had disadvantages, namely the same ones the Euro has faced in recent years.

[steveaki13]

I would have thought those arguments though would be a case for staying united. If you vote to be independent you cant just choose easy bits to be independent at. You have to stand alone and except it becomes more difficult to trade. That's all part of what you need to consider before voting for or against the split surely?

Its interesting to consider other difficulties. (i.e travel - You should need a passport to move from Scotland to England/Wales or Northern Ireland as its a foreign nation) Will this ever happen?

[Mark]

I would have thought those arguments though would be a case for staying united. If you vote to be independent you cant just choose easy bits to be independent at. You have to stand alone and except it becomes more difficult to trade. That's all part of what you need to consider before voting for or against the split surely?

Well yes that's one thing the Scottish electorate need to consider. However currency union is very possible and should not be dismissed. Remember despite the difficulties many European countries use the same currency.



Its interesting to consider other difficulties. (i.e travel - You should need a passport to move from Scotland to England/Wales or Northern Ireland as its a foreign nation) Will this ever happen?

No.

[steveaki13]

Well yes that's one thing the Scottish electorate need to consider. However currency union is very possible and should not be dismissed. Remember despite the difficulties many European countries use the same currency.


True but as you state its not been a great success. Would the rest of Britain want the risk of the issues that arise with a common currency shared between nations. If one or other nation has a collapse or crisis does the other want to basically be responsible for rescuing another country?

That's why its as much Britain's decision as Scotlands. I fail to see that Scotland can vote for independence and then demand to use the same currency. The rest of Britain has to have a say and may not want that.

Another reason this is such a big and tough decision.

[Starter]

I have been watching the news this evening and they keep on saying that Scottish want to share the British Pound.

Can someone explain to me why it would benefit either to share a currency with a foreign nation. Once Independent you are alone, I would have thought that means if an economic disaster happens to your country that you shouldn't have to put responsibility onto another nation.

For me if this all goes ahead, the British Government would surely not want to have to run all actions and dealings past Scotland?

I would prefer personally if Scotland become independent then it is completely independent and thus has to use an independent currency. Independence should mean independence. Not have protection from someone else.

All this by the way is the same the other way round.
I don't see a problem with calling rhe Scottish currency the pound. The important thing is what it's based on. For instance, the US dollar used to be backed by gold (priced in ounces). I'd suggest that the value of the Scottish pound be based on the price of a pound of haggis.

[steveaki13]

Or a measurement of whiskey

[steveaki13]

Again I ask why the Scottish Nationalists seem so determined to have a common currency.

Scotland are an industrious people and will prove that I am sure if they become independent, so why don't the Scottish Leaders do what would be best for Scotland and start afresh and properly go it alone.

Its better for both parties if they have their own currency. Why this determination to stick to the rest of the UK.

Plus as George Osbourne says its not feasible and the rest of the UK wont want it. Its as much about the rest of Britain as it is about Scotland

Pound Sterling is the British currency, so if you leave Britain then you lose the currency surely.

[Rollo]

They want to keep the pound for the same reason EU countries wanted to adopt the Euro, as it makes trade between the two countries much easier. Having to change currency on crossing the border would be a major headache, that and given that the currency can vary in price with respect to each other it can mean that, for example if you're a manufacturing company based in Scotland and so want to pay your workforce in Scottish pounds, but your main market is in England so the money you get for your goods will vary. Better to have this fixed.

Currency Risk always a problem for trans-nationals but with electronic banking, funds can be settled immediately. Besides which, this issue already exists when Scottish manufacturers deal with Europe, or China, or the United States, or Japan or... (ad nauseum).

Again, you could always set up hedge funds to migigate currency risk, which major firms already do.

[Mark]

Scotland having it's own currency would indeed be the most sensible solution. However I think they went with the 'keep the pound' situation because the electorate won't like the idea of having to change their money when dealing with rUK businesses, and such would be much less likely to vote 'Yes' in any case.

Latest results are that No is still in the lead, but all the negativity that has come out of London recently is tipping many into the Yes camp.

[steveaki13]

I agree Mark.

I know its a pain to change currency, but there are going to be many tricky issues to overcome. I think the vote will probably be NO, but as you say its currently beginning to lean more towards Yes.

*By the way I may have asked this before so sorry if I have.

But would Scotland lose all connection to BBC and start there own Broadcasting company?

[Mark]

But would Scotland lose all connection to BBC and start there own Broadcasting company?

That's one of the details which would have to be worked out. Certainliy Scotland could continue to contribute and keep the licence fee etc, equally it could decide to walk away. Notably you can watch the BBC in most of Ireland.

[steveaki13]

Ah thanks Mark. Never been to Ireland for more than a day, so I didn't know that. So yes that could be the answer to that question then.

[Mark]

There is a wider question of course, that while viewers in parts of Scotland may be able to receive the BBC, would it still have Scottish programming, news etc. No doubt an independent Scotland would wish to set up it's own broadcasting.

[A.F.F.]

This reminds me a story. Back in -97 I was studying in Edinburgh for couple of months. I lived in this dorm (which looked like a ship). One day I was heading in the dorm's kitchen room with frozen pizza and wondered why the hallways are totally empty? Usually they were packed with teenagers. I saw one student and asked where is everybody? He said try the tv-rooms, there is a football game going on. I cooked my pizza and on the way to my room, I looked one of the tv-rooms and it was full of people watching a football game. I couldn't care less about it so I continued to my room. A little bit later I heard yelling and shouting from the hallway, just outside of my room. I opened the door and saw about a dozen teenagers literally fighting in the hallway. There were guys fighting against each others I saw a couple of days earlier spending time together? I yelled;"STOP!!" And they did. For about a second. Then I went to the janitors and they came and stopped the brawl. Later I heard that the football game was Glasgow Rangers vs. Celtics and it ended nil-nil. :mark:

[Mark]

Looks like Scotland will be switching to driving on the right
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme ;)

[donKey jote]

Teehee :D

[BleAivano]

Looks like Scotland will be switching to driving on the right
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme ;)


:D

Well you know right is right. ;)

[Roamy]

will this lower the price of single malt scotch ?? if so I'm in!!!

[Zico]

Based soley on what I see and experience with my particular line of work supporting the welfare system in Scotland and dealing with a large percentage of the unemployed who have never worked a day in their lives, nor ever have had any intention to, I have real concerns that an independent Scotland would very quickly descend into a downward spiral and the cost of living would escalate through the roof. Why? Because other than some poxy short term North see oil we literally have nothing, no solid core base of industry on which to build. How would/could we support ourselves with the way things are currently? On one hand this would give this country the kick in the @rse it needs but it would bring it to its knees in the process.

It pains me to say this but for such a long time through rife unemployment and the labour government scottish vote winning welfare system, we have to a very large extent become a nation of welfare supported work dodgers, who to a large extent have been living out of Englands pockets... no wonder they want shot of us!

Maybe it's time I changed my job as dealing with scum who incidentally are largely better off than I am, scum who sit on their butts all day receiving handouts that are expected and they "have rights" to receive, that all of us (Working Brits) have to pay for in extortionate taxes has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.
I consider myself more of a realist than nationalist and sadly have very little pride in my country any more. I'll be voting 'No' at the referendum and if in the unlikely event we do win independance, I'll emigrate.. to England.

[Zico]

There are plenty of examples like Glasgow in the UK where football teams divide allegiance relating to religion but it's nothing like Northern Ireland I can assure you. Not even in the same ball park.

I take it you've never been to Larkhall then?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/scottish-town-where-green-is-beyond-the-pale-981747.html

[henners88]

I take it you've never been to Larkhall then?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/scottish-town-where-green-is-beyond-the-pale-981747.html
Maybe you and Spafranco are right then, we have another Northern Ireland style situation brewing.

Reading that article about calls for shops to change the colours of their logos to suit the beliefs of religious fundamentalists is just outrageous. I can't believe people are so primitive that they find offence in a colour just because a rival religion uses something similar. I think Scottish people should be more concerned they may potentially be isolated in a country with these morons who could cause some instability more than anything else. Reading on in that article there are suggestions green traffic lights, and even grass has been destroyed because of its colour! If that article hadn't been from November 2008 I would have said it was an April fool!!!

If independence is voted in I am starting to think it will be best for everybody. I think England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be better off financially without the added drain of the benefits culture in some of Scotland's poorer areas. I just feel for some of my Scottish buddies who are dead against it and might end up living in a society they haven't voted for, but that is democracy.

PS: Mark should be careful with the Blue and Green header on this website lol.. Its got community war written all over it :p

[Mark]

Based soley on what I see and experience with my particular line of work supporting the welfare system in Scotland and dealing with a large percentage of the unemployed who have never worked a day in their lives, nor ever have had any intention to, I have real concerns that an independent Scotland would very quickly descend into a downward spiral and the cost of living would escalate through the roof. Why? Because other than some poxy short term North see oil we literally have nothing, no solid core base of industry on which to build. How would/could we support ourselves with the way things are currently? On one hand this would give this country the kick in the @rse it needs but it would bring it to its knees in the process.

It pains me to say this but for such a long time through rife unemployment and the labour government scottish vote winning welfare system, we have to a very large extent become a nation of welfare supported work dodgers, who to a large extent have been living out of Englands pockets... no wonder they want shot of us!

Maybe it's time I changed my job as dealing with scum who incidentally are largely better off than I am, scum who sit on their butts all day receiving handouts that are expected and they "have rights" to receive, that all of us (Working Brits) have to pay for in extortionate taxes has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.
I consider myself more of a realist than nationalist and sadly have very little pride in my country any more. I'll be voting 'No' at the referendum and if in the unlikely event we do win independance, I'll emigrate.. to England.

To be fair you can see that both ways. Personally I think being an independent nation would mean Scotland would improve, because it has to, as there's no subsidy coming from the rUK.

[Zico]

Maybe you and Spafranco are right then, we have another Northern Ireland style situation brewing.

Reading that article about calls for shops to change the colours of their logos to suit the beliefs of religious fundamentalists is just outrageous. I can't believe people are so primitive that they find offence in a colour just because a rival religion uses something similar. I think Scottish people should be more concerned they may potentially be isolated in a country with these morons who could cause some instability more than anything else. Reading on in that article there are suggestions green traffic lights, and even grass has been destroyed because of its colour! If that article hadn't been from November 2008 I would have said it was an April fool!!!

It is outrageous. The part about the grass being set on fire because of its colour sounds a bit dubious and was probably just general vandalism that developed into a Larkhall urban myth but other than that I can assure you that the article paints a fairly realistic picture of the extent of the bigotry in Larkhall.
It is true that in 2007, green traffic lights in Larkhalls main street had to be fitted with wire grilles after a staggering 200 of them were vandalised or removed over a three-year period.

Some areas of Larkhall share a lot of similarities with some areas in NI with Rangers flags and Union Jags adorning houses and lamp posts, fences and kerbs painted Red white and blue... and the Subway shop front shown in the earlier link being coloured black instead of the usual green sadly is no photoshop!

Walking through the town wearing a Celtic top on a Friday or Saturday night would be suicidal for sure.

[Spafranco]

I wonder how many people in that community believe in this garbage. Every Scot I have met, and there are many , can't stand the division and visceral hatred being elicited by these fringe troglodytes.

please correct me when I say that these same friends stated that Rangers fans, in order to see games at he weekend instead of having to go to Timbuktu in order to see Rangers play Raith Rover (div 1?) are traveling to Dundee

[Spafranco]

Hey, who owns the Shetland Islands?

[Rollo]

Hey, who owns the Shetland Islands?

The Shetland Islands are part of Scotland. They even send a member to the Scottish Parliament.
They were part of a dowry paid by Christian I in 1469, against his daughter Margaret who got married to James II (of Scotland).

[Spafranco]

Iona is also Scottish?

[BleAivano]

Iona is also Scottish?


yes the inner Hebrides are a part of Scotland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Hebrides
so is the Outer Hebrides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides

[Mark]

And so is St. Kilda.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland

[D-Type]

And let's not overlook Rockall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall

[BleAivano]

And let's not overlook Rockall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall

yeah I've heard the song Rockall. ;)

[mejias307]

There are many teams that are known as Catholic and Protestant. The ones I read about are Dundee and Dundee United, Hibernian and Hearts and there was one or two others.

[D-Type]

There are many teams that are known as Catholic and Protestant. The ones I read about are Dundee and Dundee United, Hibernian and Hearts and there was one or two others.

We've been this way before. The only real sectarian football issue in Scotland is between Rangers and Celtic. Although Hibernian in Edinburgh and Dundee Hibernian (who became Dundee United) were originally clubs for Irish Catholics, today there support is not sectarian. Dundee United even play in orange! Thre is no way that these clubs can nowadays be considered to be Catholic clubs or their counterparts to be Protestant. The rivalry is simply between two clubs in the same city like Inter Milan and AC Milan, Real Madrid and Athletico Madrid, Benfica and Sporting in Lisbon.

[steveaki13]

So what is going to happen?

I mean after the Commonwealth games, its now in sharp focus that this is coming up fast.

Darling v Salmon round one has happened and Darling was viewed to have won.

Has anyone got any new views on this given the last few months.

Personally I still struggle to see Scotland getting to keep pound sterling. They say its ours as much as yours, but the fact is it is the UK currency. If scotland, England, Northern Ireland or Wales leave the UK they lose the UK currency.

[RoboTom]

Darling v Salmon round one has happened and Darling was viewed to have won.

Has anyone got any new views on this given the last few months.


Salmon certainly winning. Never under estimate this man. Most artful politician in UK.

[driveace]

Us south of the Border really hope that you gain independence,and at last get the chance to stand of your own feet.You currency will be the Scroat,your lazy who don't intend to work and continue to live off benefits will have to get off their fat a*ses and work.The oil you have claimed as YOURS ,even before I lived and worked in Glasgow as a Driving Examiner in the 70s ,is not as prosperous as you are given to believe by Salmond and that Ginger haired bird .We really hope you follow your leader and vote to be independent,then us south of the border can get ALL our taxes reduced,and you can all vote Labour or SNP .Even in the 70s when I worked up there ,there was SO much animosity toward myself and the English . If I failed a driver ,I was an "Engish Bastard" .Hope you find peace whichever way you all decide to vote,I do know the older,Scottish people I have spoken too will vote NO and think Salmond is a baboon !

[Rudy Tamasz]

Us south of the Border really hope that you gain independence,and at last get the chance to stand of your own feet.You currency will be the Scroat,your lazy who don't intend to work and continue to live off benefits will have to get off their fat a*ses and work.The oil you have claimed as YOURS ,even before I lived and worked in Glasgow as a Driving Examiner in the 70s ,is not as prosperous as you are given to believe by Salmond and that Ginger haired bird .We really hope you follow your leader and vote to be independent,then us south of the border can get ALL our taxes reduced,and you can all vote Labour or SNP .Even in the 70s when I worked up there ,there was SO much animosity toward myself and the English . If I failed a driver ,I was an "Engish Bastard" .Hope you find peace whichever way you all decide to vote,I do know the older,Scottish people I have spoken too will vote NO and think Salmond is a baboon !

Well, not taking sides in this dispute, I would think that it is exactly this kind of attitude that will make quite a few Scots vote YES.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Yes, and whatever happens, you're not going to have your taxes reduced. These days taxes don't get reduced, period.

[driveace]

Rudi ,Everybody in Scotland has a vote .
Lets hope its a good turn out and they get WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM !
Us south of the border dont get to vote,and all the older people i speak with from Scotland ,have NO time for Salmond or Sturgeon and will not be voting yes !
There has been animosity towards the English for many years ,but I really hope they are happy with the voters decision ,and those that arent can buy in England and call Pickfords !

[steveaki13]

One of the worst things for the UK would be a 51% vote to stay. That would mean Scotland stayed part of the UK which is good, but 49% of the population would be anti UK and feeling hard done by.

[Rollo]

http://www.news.com.au/world/tony-abbott-claims-supporters-of-scottish-independence-are-not-the-friends-of-freedom/story-fndir2ev-1227026919893
“As a friend of Britain, as an observer from afar, it’s hard to see how the world would be helped by an independent Scotland,
I think that the people who would like to see the breakup of the United Kingdom are not the friends of justice, the friends of freedom, and the countries that would cheer at the prospect ... are not the countries whose company one would like to keep.”
- Australian PM Tony Abbott, as quoted in the Daily Telegraph, quoting the The Times, 16th Aug 2014

Well done Tony. Your austerity budget might not be passed because you refuse to work with the Senate, your government has enacted cruel policies with regards immigration and now you've just gone and insulted a great portion of Scotland.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Rudi ,Everybody in Scotland has a vote .
Lets hope its a good turn out and they get WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM !
Us south of the border dont get to vote,and all the older people i speak with from Scotland ,have NO time for Salmond or Sturgeon and will not be voting yes !
There has been animosity towards the English for many years ,but I really hope they are happy with the voters decision ,and those that arent can buy in England and call Pickfords !

I'm trying to interpret your post logically. On the one hand you're saying that "the older people i speak with from Scotland ,have NO time for Salmond or Sturgeon and will not be voting yes". Then you state that "there has been animosity towards the English for many years". Now, whose animosity has it been? If it's been around for many years, then it must be the animosity of those older people who are going to vote NO. The younger crop of England haters wasn't around back then. So what you have is a generation of people who show animosity towards England but don't want to severe ties with it. That's too bad. If I were you, I would go on to expel Scotland from the UK.

[henners88]

If Scotland do vote for independence then we can at least thank them for making sure we never have another Labour government.

Education will also become largely centralised like is has here in Wales once the Welsh Assembly (not government as they are not) took charge of it. Schools held to ransom over funding and local authorities with experience of the region having their hands tied over what decisions come from the capital. Salmon and Co will be reinforcing their positions even more should they get power and it will be good for some and bad for others. I hope they get what they want and those who choose to move should the vote go in favour like a friend of mine, we will accept them with open arms.

[Rudy Tamasz]

If Scotland do vote for independence then we can at least thank them for making sure we never have another Labour government.

And in what way the "Conservative" government you have now is any different from the Labor one you had before? :devil:

[Roamy]

Why is this so hard?? Would you rather have a single malt or a beef and kidney pie :)

[schmenke]

Why is this so hard?? Would you rather have a single malt or a beef and kidney pie :)

Why not both? :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Only a few days to go till the big vote and latest polls are very close. Voter turnout is expected to be very high (around 90%). I reckon that the population that doesn't usually vote will sway this and I think they are more likely to vote yes, as they may not usually vote because they are disillusioned by Westminster politics.

So the Scots will end up 'independent' with the Pound as their currency with interest rates set by the Bank of England.......:erm:

[D-Type]

Good point Jon Brow. But we don't really know how the regular non-voters will vote. Have they previously not voted out of disillusionment with Westminster or because they are generally happy with the status quo and feel that whichever part is voted in makes very little difference to them?

[Starter]

If the vote is in the affirmative, you guys are going to have fun over the next few years sorting everything out.

[Rollo]

So the Scots will end up 'independent' with the Pound as their currency with interest rates set by the Bank of England.......:erm:

Or else they'll establish the Pound Scots, which would initially be tariffed at 1:1 with the Pound Sterling and in effect create one of the hardest currencies in Europe.

A few countries around the world have their currencies pegged to the US dollar and a few more are pegged to the Euro. Belarus even pegs its Ruble to a basket which includes the US Dollar, the Euro and the Russian Ruble.

I don't think that Scottish currency is as troublesome as what is being made out. Australia and New Zealand both survived quite happily for the best part of a century, with their Pounds and Dollars pegged against Sterling and then the Greenback.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If the vote is in the affirmative, you guys are going to have fun over the next few years sorting everything out.

Well most of the issues will be for Scotland to solve. But it seems the nationalists are deluding people that they can keep the pound, leave the debt, control their own fiscal policy, take all the North Sea oil and be prosperous even when all the Scottish banks move to London.

The only major issue for the rest of the UK is redesigning the Union Flag and finding an arrangement for our military assets in Scotland.

[Starter]

The only major issue for the rest of the UK is redesigning the Union Flag and finding an arrangement for our military assets in Scotland.
In terms of your nuclear naval base there, think "Guantanamo". :D :p :D

[Gregor-y]

Or else they'll establish the Pound Scots, which would initially be tariffed at 1:1 with the Pound Sterling and in effect create one of the hardest currencies in Europe.
I thought the Pound Scots was only worth about a shilling if I remember Kidnapped correctly.

[Rollo]

I thought the Pound Scots was only worth about a shilling if I remember Kidnapped correctly.

Good remembering... close ^_^

In 1707 the rate of exchange when the Pound Scots was replaced with the Pound Sterling was 12:1.
The Scottish Shilling would have been worth an English Penny but the Pound Scots would have been worth 20 pence or 1/8 (1s 8d.)

That was 1707. The tariff rate for a new Pound Scots would be 1:1 initially.

[Rollo]

Re RBS:
I hope you leave Scotland...

If you do that, you'll lose your charter to print currency because only the Bank of England can issue currency in Pounds Sterling under the Banking Act 2009. If you relocate to England, oh great and powerful RBS, you'll lose that right immediately and technically all of that currency in Scotland which you've printed is unbackable.
I seriously hope that this causes a run on you RBS as you'll be forced to buy back all that currency.

Do it. Blow yourself up.
That way, the UK Government can sue the pants off you and whilst we're at it, throw the entire board in gaol for negligence.
How's that for a Banker's Bonus? Being an inmate at Her Majesty's pleasure. :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

So the polls are closed!!!

And a whole nation (one nation for now) holds it breath. We all could go to bed as British and wake up as citizens or the Former United Kingdom, or FUK for short.

[odykas]

Exits Poll: No 54% - Yes 46%

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Is this what we'll wake up to?

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01437/SNN1406GXB-682_1437682a.jpg

[odykas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx2KfvCCEAA9vCl.jpg

110% :laugh:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

^Welcome to the future under Emperor Salmond. Who says the elections aren't rigged !!!

[Rollo]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/scotland-independence-no-vote-victory-alex-salmond

The Grauniad is reporting in its special 04:30am that Scotland has voted "ON".

[Rudy Tamasz]

Belarus is ready to take refugees. Single malts are welcome, too.

[Storm]

55% for NO.

[Mark]

All very sad :(

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yes this is great!

My country will no longer be condemned to eternal Tory rule. I always feared that the north of England would be the biggest losers out of Scottish Independence as the north is politically more similar to Scotland than it is to the South of England.

I think one soluton to consider would be to have London as a principality or a separate state within the UK.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Alex the Salmon has decided to step down as First Minister!

[Mark]

Sensible for him to go. I bet he's feeling rather gutted today to put it mildly.

[steveaki13]

Well it was a momentous day whatever. I am glad Scotland are staying in the union, but tough times still lay ahead. Politics in the UK appear to be changing.

As for Salmon, I assumed he would go as his whole time as First Minister was based around independence.

lets hope the whole UK can move on.

[Rollo]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29274854
Nigel Farage has said the time has come for an English Parliament, to give the country a "proper voice" in the UK.

The leader of the UK Independence Party told the BBC: "We've had a lot from Scotland but the tail cannot go on wagging the dog any longer."

He said there should be a full constitutional convention.

Mr Farage, whose party has no MPs but topped the Euro elections, also called for Scottish MPs to give up their right to vote on England-only issues.
- BBC News, 19th Sep 2014

This is a different issue to the Scottish Independence question and dare I suggest it is an "English Question"

Personally I think that Farage is a howling jackaninny because Westminster has been making laws for England for the best part of 316 years.

When the issues of nationalising, privatising, or corporatising public services were being discussed, for the most part over the past 100 years, the biggest benefactors were the city of London. The economy has even been redesigned to benefit 'the city'.

Granted that England comprises of 86% of the population but English members also make up 82% of the House of Commons.

How many "England-only issues" are there anyway? English Common Law pretty well much is the prevailing rule of law and assuming that there is to be a Devolved English parliament, what in blue blazes is it supposed to do?

There might be some argument in reforming the House of Lords but we all know that they aren't exactly likely to want to terminate their own positions; even through the instrument of elections.
I'm afraid that I just don't get it.

[donKey jote]

Nigel Farage should know a thing or two about tails wagging the dog... he's an expert at it!