Driver's importance in car performance

[keysersoze]

Button has had three teams that actually got worse after he joined them: Benetton, BAR nee Honda, now McLaren. His first year against Lewis made me a believer, but now I'm not convinced McLaren dumped the right driver.

I do not see the fuss over Kovalainen. In all his FP1 appearances this season with Caterham, he has not been quicker than Pic, who appears to have been caught by Giedo.

[steveaki13]

Button has had three teams that actually got worse after he joined them: Benetton, BAR nee Honda, now McLaren. His first year against Lewis made me a believer, but now I'm not convinced McLaren dumped the right driver.

I do not see the fuss over Kovalainen. In all his FP1 appearances this season with Caterham, he has not been quicker than Pic, who appears to have been caught by Giedo.

While I admit Jenson is by no means the fastest around, I think a couple of those examples are a bit harsh.

I mean he joined Benetton for what was a poor year in 2001, but you could argue they started bad when he joined and actually got faster by the end of 2001. Button and Fisi both scoring points. Then the team improved again with him for 2002 and Renault.

BAR when he joined had been terrible in 2002, only scoring a few points, but 2003 coupled with the points change he outraced Villeneuve and took BAR towards the front by the end of 2003 and led some races. Then 2004 improved further to scoring regular podiums, then although the cars performance evened out in 2005 & 2006, he did claim a few poles and the teams first win.

After the team slumped, it got better once more with him driving it to win the title in 2009, with the best car for the first half of the season.

His time with Lewis at McLaren was what I expected largely. He was slow than Lewis but good enough to score points and wins for McLaren.


Personally looking at it like that suggests, he hasn't dragged many teams down as you claim. :)

This year has been one of his worst in F1, but lets see what happens in 2014. It may well be the end for Jenson, but its been a decent career without being legendry surely.

[AndyL]

While I admit Jenson is by no means the fastest around, I think a couple of those examples are a bit harsh.

I mean he joined Benetton for what was a poor year in 2001, but you could argue they started bad when he joined and actually got faster by the end of 2001. Button and Fisi both scoring points. Then the team improved again with him for 2002 and Renault.

BAR when he joined had been terrible in 2002, only scoring a few points, but 2003 coupled with the points change he outraced Villeneuve and took BAR towards the front by the end of 2003 and led some races. Then 2004 improved further to scoring regular podiums, then although the cars performance evened out in 2005 & 2006, he did claim a few poles and the teams first win.

Yes BAR/Honda/Brawn is more like a counter-example isn't it. Button joined a team that had its last win 20 years previously, and went on to win 7 races and a championship over 7 seasons with them, so they certainly didn't get worse after he joined. Their second place in the WCC in Button's second year was the team's best since they had Jackie Stewart behind the wheel.

[keysersoze]

I'm not saying that Button is the sole reason for the teams' slumps, but IMO this wouldn't have happened to an Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, or Vettel.

If it weren't for some clever rules interpretation by Ross Brawn in '09, Jenson would not have revived his reputation he had managed to established for himself. After his excellent 2004 season, things went pear-shaped for BAR (and Honda) for 4 straight seasons. Brawn is the reason Jenson has the career he enjoys right now.

[AndyL]

I'm not saying that Button is the sole reason for the teams' slumps, but IMO this wouldn't have happened to an Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, or Vettel.

2009 McLaren and Renault?

[steveaki13]

Correct Andy. Good points.

[jens]

Button has his faults, but I think people are pushing it way too far by blaming Button for McLaren having a distant 5th best car on the grid. If you want, you can blame him in other things, but that just doesn't make sense.

[keysersoze]

The 2009 season only strengthens my case. The team were way out of it at the beginning, but throughout the course of the season improved dramatically, with LH taking two wins, who blew Kovalainen away so comprehensively that the Finn was relegated to a start-up team, Caterham.

The bad Renaults during Alonso's second stint with the team were not helped by the common knowledge that Fernando was using them as a stop-gap until the Ferrari seat became available. And, unlike McLaren, Renault were financially unable to throw resources at the car to make it appreciably better. Even so, FA managed 26 points, which was 26 more than his teammates accumulated.

This second half of the season reminds me of the Button of the Honda days--Barrichello was better able to deal with a difficult car in much the same way that Checo is better at managing a lousy McLaren.

[steveaki13]

This second half of the season reminds me of the Button of the Honda days--Barrichello was better able to deal with a difficult car in much the same way that Checo is better at managing a lousy McLaren.

That's different though. Sure we know because of the smooth style Jenson struggles with a lousy car more than his team mates, but I thought we were discussing whether Jenson actually drags teams down and ruins them. At least that was what I thought from your original post on this subject.

[AndyL]

The bad Renaults during Alonso's second stint with the team were not helped by the common knowledge that Fernando was using them as a stop-gap until the Ferrari seat became available. And, unlike McLaren, Renault were financially unable to throw resources at the car to make it appreciably better.

I'm not saying that Alonso was the sole reason for the team's slump, but...

[Tazio]

The bad Renaults during Alonso's second stint with the team were not helped by the common knowledge that Fernando was using them as a stop-gap until the Ferrari seat became available. And, unlike McLaren, Renault were financially unable to throw resources at the car to make it appreciably better.

I'm not saying that Alonso was the sole reason for the team's slump, but...
I see what you're getting at. When Alonso was promoted from test driver to a racing seat in 2003 he took Renault's first victory since 1983. When he left after the 2006 season the team went to shit. :dozey: :angel: :devil:

[truefan72]

I'm not saying that Button is the sole reason for the teams' slumps, but IMO this wouldn't have happened to an Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, or Vettel.

2009 McLaren and Renault?

and yet, Hamilton won a 2 races and finished on the podium a further 3 times
button is limited to his car. the aforementioned find a way to outdrive their machinery, through sheer will and extraordinary talent.

[truefan72]

The 2009 season only strengthens my case. The team were way out of it at the beginning, but throughout the course of the season improved dramatically, with LH taking two wins, who blew Kovalainen away so comprehensively that the Finn was relegated to a start-up team, Caterham.

The bad Renaults during Alonso's second stint with the team were not helped by the common knowledge that Fernando was using them as a stop-gap until the Ferrari seat became available. And, unlike McLaren, Renault were financially unable to throw resources at the car to make it appreciably better. Even so, FA managed 26 points, which was 26 more than his teammates accumulated.

This second half of the season reminds me of the Button of the Honda days--Barrichello was better able to deal with a difficult car in much the same way that Checo is better at managing a lousy McLaren.

exactly :up:

[truefan72]

Just been thinking about the Perez situation. His options are limited in F1 and any option will be sponsorship dependant, I won't go over the F1 options, we all know which seats are available and the various manoeuvrings that have happened and indeed are likely to happen depending on who gets confirmed where and when.

An interesting development has left a top Indycar seat available, Dario Franchitti has been forced to retire with immediate effect as he has had one monumental accident too many and being 40 now he simply won't bounce back and the doctors were concerned that his injuries could leave him permanently disabled in later life. This leaves his seat vacant at Target Chip Ganassi Racing, one of the finest teams in the Indycar Championship. Wouldn't they (and more to the point Indycar as a whole) love to have Mexico's best known & arguably most talented current driver in thier car? The commercial possibilities are fantastic, the Indycar series happens in Mexico's time zone and i'm sure if demand dictated it they could find room for a round in Mexico (after all, CART / Champ Car raced in Mexico a lot before reunification for the 2008 season) too. For me, outside F1, this would make sense for everyone involved.

Autosport have reported that Perez is open to an Indycar move..... 5 days after I suggested that very thing! http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111479.

I would turn it down, if I were him for 2 reasons
1. ovals
2. if he has any ambition of making it back into F1, then going to indycar is not the move.
He has literally a better chance of return to the grid in 2015 if he sits out 2014 and networks up and down the grid, rather than join indycar. I remember the glory days of that series, but sadly it is a shell of its former self, and viewed as a place where careers go to die (at least from an F1 perspective). He is still pretty young and can probably afford to sit out a year and work his way into a decent seat for 2015.

And speaking of Indycar, here is hoping that f1 adds a 23rd team for 2015 with either a pensky, andretti, or ginassi team and honda engines, with some of that promised google money. that would be awesome and go a long way in the US.

[steveaki13]

why is everyone so nasty to Button. No one thinks he's as good as Lewis, Seb or Fernando and alikes, but to say he's single handedly crushed every team he's raced for seems excessive.

He's a good driver who had his chance and won a title. Good on him for that. It may soon be time for him to hang up his helmet however I think he can still do a job for Mclaren

[555-04Q2]

why is everyone so nasty to Button. No one thinks he's as good as Lewis, Seb or Fernando and alikes, but to say he's single handedly crushed every team he's raced for seems excessive.

He's a good driver who had his chance and won a title. Good on him for that. It may soon be time for him to hang up his helmet however I think he can still do a job for Mclaren

I don't think he is a bad driver, not as good as some might think, but not a bad driver :)

Now that you mention it though, teams he has raced for have coincidentally either closed down or gone backwards :shocked:

[henners88]

why is everyone so nasty to Button. No one thinks he's as good as Lewis, Seb or Fernando and alikes, but to say he's single handedly crushed every team he's raced for seems excessive.

He's a good driver who had his chance and won a title. Good on him for that. It may soon be time for him to hang up his helmet however I think he can still do a job for Mclaren
Button has always been a good number 2 driver who is consistent in terms of points (apart from 2013) and tops up the constructors tally for the team. McLaren are is desperate need of a lead driver who can guide the team to challenge for a championship. That is the key ingredient they are missing now Hamilton has gone and I think Magnussen is too young and inexperienced to come in and solve that. Button is a good driver, just not a top tier great as you say. He is in a select few who will be able to retire from the sport as a World Champion and he has to be proud of that.

[AndyL]

and yet, Hamilton won a 2 races and finished on the podium a further 3 times
button is limited to his car. the aforementioned find a way to outdrive their machinery, through sheer will and extraordinary talent.

The driver out-performing the car wasn't the point being debated though. It was whether you can blame the driver if the team produce a dog of a car, which McLaren did in 2009.

[henners88]

and yet, Hamilton won a 2 races and finished on the podium a further 3 times
button is limited to his car. the aforementioned find a way to outdrive their machinery, through sheer will and extraordinary talent.

The driver out-performing the car wasn't the point being debated though. It was whether you can blame the driver if the team produce a dog of a car, which McLaren did in 2009.
The simple answer to that is No you cannot blame the driver if 300 engineers produce an uncompetitive car. A driver can only provide basic feedback on what they want and expect. If a driver is good at adapting to make the best of a bad situation, then we can praise that ability.

[555-04Q2]

and yet, Hamilton won a 2 races and finished on the podium a further 3 times
button is limited to his car. the aforementioned find a way to outdrive their machinery, through sheer will and extraordinary talent.

The driver out-performing the car wasn't the point being debated though. It was whether you can blame the driver if the team produce a dog of a car, which McLaren did in 2009.
The simple answer to that is No you cannot blame the driver if 300 engineers produce an uncompetitive car. A driver can only provide basic feedback on what they want and expect. If a driver is good at adapting to make the best of a bad situation, then we can praise that ability.

Correct. A driver can guide a team to improve the car from a practical point of view from having driven it and saying we need more front down force, better rear balance etc and its up to the engineers to make the necessary mods. But if the car design is inherently flawed there is not much that the driver can do to improve things.

[jens]

Ok, separate discussion about that matter.:)