WRC out, R5 in

[M5]

when will R5 replace WRC?

if WRC is killed off how many teams will fight for victori the season after - tips?

[Andre Oliveira]

Never! WRC is the top of the rally class, will be ever better than the others classes.

[big_sw2000]

From a spectator point of view. If they threw the WRC body kit on to an R5, and did away with the WRC car. Would we really notice to much difference. When theres no WRC cars running.

R5 dose seem a popular choice amongst manfactures

Steve

[Francis44]

I think this is very difficult subject. The R5 cars as they stand now are unbelievably boring, the Fiesta almost sounds as it has an HDI engine.

Story shows aswell that no matter what kind of car you make top class, it will eventually become as expensive as the ones before. Plus everyone talks about interest from other manufacteurs but all the concrete work we see is from manus already involved with the sport, from others is all talk and no show.

[AndyRAC]

If you could maintain costs, I wouldn't have a problem as such with R5 being the top class. But that never happens, costs escalate, and Manufacturers get put off joining.

If people could think of the sport first, then possibly, but they never do.

[Sulland]

If you could maintain costs, I wouldn't have a problem as such with R5 being the top class. But that never happens, costs escalate, and Manufacturers get put off joining.

If people could think of the sport first, then possibly, but they never do.

Wise words !!

In 1986 I guess the fans said the same thing on cutting Gr B. But Gr A turned out to be a very good period in Rally history!
The issue is always how strict you should and could control the tech and money side of a class, without loosing the spectacle of top notch rally!

I think we now should let WRC run for a year or two, and see if WRC-2 turns out to be a huge success in WRC and R5 as tp dog in ERC! R5 has the potential to be sold in large numbers, get a healthy 2.hand market, and have close competition !

With those lessons identified in hand we should talk again!

[RS]

I think this is very difficult subject. The R5 cars as they stand now are unbelievably boring, the Fiesta almost sounds as it has an HDI engine.


It sounds like a Fiesta WRC...

I agree with two sentiments in this post

- with top drivers most people would hardly notice a difference on the stages
- if R5 became the top class, R5 would probably become more expensive

Remember the category is only just starting. When Peugeot, Citroen and Skoda start competing with theirs the pace will pick up :)

Fabia is already looking good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNIaOL61k1g

[RS]

Latest 208 is also looking a lot better than early examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4XwFzrwKsY

[KKS]

From a spectator point of view.
Hm... from footage GB rally I can identify R5 Fista from same color WRC Fiesta. R5 is much slower.
Faster cars more spectacular then slower, do not bring any "WRC livery's" to r5 it doesn't give this car more speed

[GigiGalliNo1]

From a spectator point of view.
Hm... from footage GB rally I can identify R5 Fista from same color WRC Fiesta. R5 is much slower.
Faster cars more spectacular then slower, do not bring any "WRC livery's" to r5 it doesn't give this car more speed

Obviously not. It's just that the R5 have an updated shell... WRC car not yet. Wait til 2014..

[GigiGalliNo1]

Also. Take note:

If and when the R5 specifications are said to become the specs for the future WRCar... the top class will still be called WRC and the specifications will change to what R5 are. Hence M-Sport have new R5, VW are working on new Skoda Fabia R5 and then these will turn into the WRC specifications.

[Mirek]

Obviously not. It's just that the R5 have an updated shell... WRC car not yet. Wait til 2014..

Have You ever seen Fiesta R5 and WRC live? I can recognize which one is which even if I am blindfolded without any doubts.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Obviously not. It's just that the R5 have an updated shell... WRC car not yet. Wait til 2014..

Have You ever seen Fiesta R5 and WRC live? I can recognize which one is which even if I am blindfolded without any doubts.

I haven't seen them in person but i can totally understand you can tell the difference. I'm not that silly. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I too would know the difference between a full blown WRC car to a RRC lesser spec car. :D :D :D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What i'm talking about is that the specs in a R5 car can well and truly become WRC spec in the future... because it's brought down prices in built and purchase... so possibly some elements of the R5 can be WRC etc. How many seconds off a KM is the R5 at the moment to WRC? Someone posted it up before....

[Mirek]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.

[GigiGalliNo1]

how?

[Mirek]

Like every stuff used in top competition level in whatever sport. It has always been like that and it will stay like that because the top players can afford to spend hell of a money. In the end it doesn't matter how complicated the machines are. Those who can afford to spend money on any kind of improvement they do it.

[polo10]

I agree with Mirek ,if they put R5 the top class the costs Will go up a lot,i think they should stay everything líke it is now,The wrc's are spectacular cars,And the R5 should be a good óption for the private teams...

[big_sw2000]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.

Yep, that is true. Is that one of the reasons we went to the 1.6 WRC cars. And stopped using the fully electronic 2L WRC cars.

Steve

[306 Cosworth]

Having just got back from Rally GB, if R5 is made the top spec of the sport, it will be pretty poor. The R5 Fiesta sounds so boring and quiet compared to the full blown WRC Cars. The top spec cars should remain as they are for the foreseeable future.

[EightGear]

Let's not generalise R5 cars as boring just because the only car homologated happens to sound boring... :)

[AdvEvo]

You can also see in hairpins the R5 has not the power of an WRC car. It can not power slide over 4 wheels like a WRC does on dry. It runs bit short on power then.

[Jack4688`]

A 33mm restrictor and the shorter gear ratios of a 6 speed box would help with that :D

[sollitt]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.
There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.

[Rallyper]

What´s the difference between R5 and RRC cars? Are there same components on R5 and WRC such as brakes, suspension, gearboxes etz?

[tommeke_B]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.
There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.
Actually there is a reason. The price is always decided by who invests most. The rules of WRC cars have been simplified many times over the years, but still the price went up and up and... Many people here know it better than me, but things like water injection (in the cylinder), electronic diffs, use of some materials etc have been banned over the years, in order to make the WRC cars cheaper. Also the 1.6T WRC cars were meant to be cheaper than 2L WRC cars, but it turns out they are more expensive (especially regarding the running cost). Also S2000-cars got much more expensive since Skoda entered the race for having the best car. When I compare the price for S2000 cars I heard in 2007 - 2008 to 2011 - 2012, the price has almost doubled (1,5x to 2x as expensive), while the rules have not changed.

[tommeke_B]

What´s the difference between R5 and RRC cars? Are there same components on R5 and WRC such as brakes, suspension, gearboxes etz?
There is no relationship between R5 and RRC cars. RRC is basically a WRC with a smaller restrictor, other flywheel and more basic aerodynamics (read: not a 15 000 euros rear wing), maybe there are more things I'm not aware of, but I don't think so. R5 is a car that should be more "basic", it has a bigger restrictor than RRC, but the choice in engine isn't as free, they have a 5-speed gearbox and many parts must come from standard cars (not neccesarily the same manufacturer as the rallycar, for example Ford Fiesta R5 has some Porsche parts inside).

[Mirek]

There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.

Get use to that gr.A times are long time over and will never return. Never. To base any estimation for close future on a situation from 20 years a go is pointless. Everything is different now. As Tommeke said the cost is driven by the player who can afford to spend most. VW and Hyundai have endless pockets. They don't care about others or privateers. They don't even need sponsors. They have the only target to win - for any cost (same applied for Citroën until recently). You can not keep cost down on the top level.

It's neither necessary nor wise to repeat the same mistakes again and again. In 2010 FIA decided to take affordable S2000 regulation and create new WRC on them. So they changed engine and aero and created a new "cheap" WRC which can be easily turned into RRC (competitor for S2000). After three years the result is that RRC running cost is 3x higher than S2000 and despite new S2000 homologations are banned for three years almost nobody except sheikhs uses RRC cars in regional championships. Those are still full of "outdated" S2000 cars.

[sollitt]

You miss the point and make a number of speculative assertions in your comments.
Nobody is suggesting a return to GrpA … or Grp4 for that matter, (although many would certainly enjoy the latter) however the lessons of 20, 30 or 40 years ago are as valid today as they were then.
In both of those era privateers were able to build a compliant and competitive car in their home garages and use it to good effect against the factory teams, even winning events on occasion.
I’m not saying it was inexpensive at all but, because the cars were also the formula used in domestic championships and the regulations remained relatively static, the development of privateers machinery pretty much kept pace with that of the factory teams.
Until we get back to that kind of situation the WRC will remain the farce that it is today in which the main game, as AdvEvo put it, is finding the money to buy the tag “WRC Driver”.
Perhaps R5, with constraint and robust enforcement, could be that formula.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Perhaps R5, with constraint and robust enforcement, could be that formula.
That seems to be the plan, but the challenge is in how those regulations could be enforced. I think the FIA has a vision where manufacturers build the cars for customer teams, where the cars cheap enough to attract as many customers as possible, allowing the manufacturers to recuperate the costs. Kind of like the way M-Sport build and run all of the Fiestas. It's a model that could work, especially if all teams can score points for a manufacturer.

[AdvEvo]

We need to go back to the basics. Everybody is complaining there is not much new talent. Some people overhere even talked about Duval loix and even panizzi to go back in. LOL

Toyota is with a GT86 rally on a good path. Lets just hope the car doesn t cost you a fortune so new talents/priveteers can get relatively cheap into rallying compared to R4/R5 and WRC.

The only thing we need is a cheaper 4x4 class. R4 are done and new group N cars will be also not there in the future. Look at the new WRX bigger and longer that s the wrong way around and Evo s go electric :D

Next year we get Audi A1 S1 quattro for the street. That would be a nice car to step up from FWD/RWD to 4x4. But they need to build it simple and low maintenance. Easy and cheap to run to get more privateers to the sport and find more new talents for the WRC.

Also BMW is building a cheaper race car for more privateers to get into racing with a factory car. 59.500 euro you get an M235i Racing. I think it s a good concept factory teams bring such cars. If you wanna buy a BMW Z4 GT3 Racecar you talk about 400.000 euro. Outside factory teams that s almost a no go area for privateers to come into the sport.

The steps in rally are now financially to big. If i drive ford fiesta FWD and if i want 4x4 i need an R5 then. The budget for that are mega steps. And with the financial crisis were in, you won t find the money at sponsors.

[Mirek]

GT-86 will most likely cost like all other R3 cars. What's new there? We have had the R3 around for years and they worked well as a more affordable successor of S1600 cars.

You say we need cheaper 4x4 car but suggest a car with Haldex clutch. I really doubt such car would be useful for anything in rallying. The sad fact is that stock cars are not designed to be used in any kind of competition, in fact most of stock 4x4 are not useful for any kind of terrain more difficult than a bit of snow on asphalt.

But do we really need 4x4 car as feeder class? For what? In the past many of the best drivers came directly from 2WD - S1600 or later R2/R3 (Loeb, Ogier or Sordo for example). There is no need for the cheap 4x4 in respect to new talents. It's more needed for fun of gentleman drivers than for young talents.

[big_sw2000]

Or is it we need a cheep 4x4 as the top tier of rallying. So that national championships, such as the British Championship can go back to using world championship cars. And bringing young talent through the national championships.
Such as the 80s, when the British championship was the biggest national championship in the world.

Don't ask me how to make it happen though

Steve

[Allyc85]

R5 can not be the top level with the amount of engine power they currently have! Watching them out of the slow and tight exit of the merge at Chirk the difference was amazingly obvious.

[RS]

R5 can not be the top level with the amount of engine power they currently have! Watching them out of the slow and tight exit of the merge at Chirk the difference was amazingly obvious.

From the pre-Ypres test footage it was clear that both the 208 and Fiesta lacked the punch out of very slow corners of even the Fabia S2000, but let's see how it is when there are more manufacturers in the competition in a year or two. First S2000 cars were quite weak compared to the last.

[miniwintz]

It's not about the engine, but about the gearbox IMO. R5 should allow 6-speed.

[bluuford]

The first time I spectated R5 was in Rally Estonia (Kruuda and Kangur) and I must say that I liked these cars. Seems that people are more dissapointed by their performance in slow corners.. well The places I was watching were all pretty fast (4th or 5th gear+pretty slow tarmac corner (2nd or 3rd gear) in city stage, it was also nice). And the cars looked spectacular there and soudned good.

[RS]

It's not about the engine, but about the gearbox IMO. R5 should allow 6-speed.

I agree it would help, but some R5 spec cars seem to have a stronger performance from low speeds too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMMiu6vVkjY

[Sulland]

In my opinion it is way to early to conclude in this topic.

Now FIA have said that WRC will live at least out 2016. After 3 full seasons of R5, we will see if we have more manufacturers that has either built their own R5, or approved privately engineered cars.
The tech development of the class have matured, and we can see if all parties will see that this is the way ahead, or that we will get a R6 class that will be a R5+ that has more freedom and goes faster.
2014 will be an exiting year for R5!

[AMSS]

The first time I spectated R5 was in Rally Estonia (Kruuda and Kangur) and I must say that I liked these cars. Seems that people are more dissapointed by their performance in slow corners.. well The places I was watching were all pretty fast (4th or 5th gear+pretty slow tarmac corner (2nd or 3rd gear) in city stage, it was also nice). And the cars looked spectacular there and soudned good.

I`ve seen them in Estonia, NORF, 1 finnish championship and Wales, and in my opinion they sound like complete SH_ _!
But maybe it`s just the Fiestas..

[Mirek]

I personally heard also Peugeot in Ypres and its sound is million times better.

[AMSS]

Ok, so there`s hope.. :)

[er88]

The first time I spectated R5 was in Rally Estonia (Kruuda and Kangur) and I must say that I liked these cars. Seems that people are more dissapointed by their performance in slow corners.. well The places I was watching were all pretty fast (4th or 5th gear+pretty slow tarmac corner (2nd or 3rd gear) in city stage, it was also nice). And the cars looked spectacular there and soudned good.

Agree, most of the very fast sections i spectated at in wales i enjoyed watching the fiesta r5s. However coming out of slow corners they really seem to lack the grunt. Looking at testing vids of skoda and peugeots r5s they sound really good imo and look more spectacular already than the fiesta which dosent sound great unless in a thick forest with ho wind- out in open areas with wind i could barely hear the fiestas sadly. Is it really soo hard to make a good sounding car??

[RS]

the fiesta which dosent sound great unless in a thick forest with ho wind- out in open areas with wind i could barely hear the fiestas sadly. Is it really soo hard to make a good sounding car??

Every turbo Ford is the same. Focus WRC, Fiesta WRC, Fiesta RRC, Fiesta R5....

[AndyRAC]

Isn't it because of Pipo Moteurs?? Most of the recent Fords have sounded poor, like 'strangled farts'. The Peugeot 208R5 sounds perfectly fine.

[RS]

Isn't it because of Pipo Moteurs?? Most of the recent Fords have sounded poor, like 'strangled farts'. The Peugeot 208R5 sounds perfectly fine.

I think that has a lot to do with it; the 307WRC was the same.

[Rallying UK]

FUTURE OF WRC: World rally cars or R5 - what does the future hold?

Good article by Rallye-Magazin:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2013/11/25/hersteller-wuenschen-sich-weiterhin-top-kategorie/index.html

[PLuto]

Now it is sure that R5 is not the future of rallysport. They will live less than we expected. Actual R5 will live only one month...

More info here (http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=15863)

[Mirek]

Now it is sure that R5 is not the future of rallysport. They will live less than we expected. Actual R5 will live only one month...

More info here (http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=15863)

This is the most stupid idea from FIA I have ever heard about :crazy:

[Mirek]

Isn't it because of Pipo Moteurs?? Most of the recent Fords have sounded poor, like 'strangled farts'. The Peugeot 208R5 sounds perfectly fine.

I think that has a lot to do with it; the 307WRC was the same.

Hyundai i20 has also Pipo engine and it sounds completely different...

[MJW]

Hyundai did have a Pipo engine in the early days, but they had plans to bring engine development and assembly it in house, -like VW, (refer to an autosport.com article about 5 weeks ago when David Evans visited the factory, also keep an eye on the jobs vacancies at Hyundai Motorsport to see the recent adverts for such roles).
Maybe the proper engine is now fitted as they approach final specification and homologation. Remember 2 years ago? the polo was initially fitted with a VW Formula 3 engine in preliminary testing.
I read somewhere that Hyundai have stated that they wish to bring the Asian mentality (Samsung style?) into fast tracking development and product delivery, and show that not everything has to be done slowly like the European model.

[makinen_fan]

I read somewhere that Hyundai have stated that they wish to bring the Asian mentality (Samsung style?) into fast tracking development and product delivery, and show that not everything has to be done slowly like the European model.

If they try to bring into motorsport I will start questioning whether they will succeed. From personal knowledge in a motorsport team, whenever they tried to approach the whole operation in a more corporate style way, they failed miserably. I hope they don't do this.

[Rallyper]

It then might be Gangnam style...? :cool:

[AndyRAC]

Matt Wilson drove a Fiesta R5+ on the Grizedale Stages yesterday; sounded different (bigger restrictor & exhaust??) and had a WRC rear wing....

[Racing Ka]

http://www.coppermines.co.uk/whatsnew.htm

Amongst the confirmed competitors for this year is M-Sport's Matthew Wilson who is entering in his Fiesta R5, the development model for 2014 (larger turbo) and also Elfyn Evans will be driving a Fiesta R200 which is the 2014 version of the R2 Fiesta.

[Mirek]

The car had WRC wing and some say larger restrictor. None of that is allowed under R5 regulations so it can not be development model under valid regulations unless there are some big changes in regulations planned (I don't think so).

[Rallying UK]

Here's some photos and video of M-Sport's new Ford Fiesta R5+ and their Ford Fiesta R200 on the Coppermines Grizedale Stages Rally 2013 yesterday:

http://storify.com/RallyingUK/introducing-m-sport-s-new-ford-fiesta-r5-and-ford

[Jeppe]

Elfyn Evans will be driving a Fiesta R200 which is the 2014 version of the R2 Fiesta.

To be exact R200 is not / will not be the 2014 version of the R2 Fiesta. It is only a special built R2 Fiesta for the UK events (no International homologation). Just like R5+´is...

[Racing Ka]

Elfyn Evans will be driving a Fiesta R200 which is the 2014 version of the R2 Fiesta.

To be exact R200 is not / will not be the 2014 version of the R2 Fiesta. It is only a special built R2 Fiesta for the UK events (no International homologation). Just like R5+´is...

Yes, nothing new on that R200 thing, It´s just funny that you can publish to press something like that. And someone even believe what they read from the web..