Should Gravel Traps Return?

[steveaki13]

Inspired by us having a discussion in the wrong thread. I thought it could do with one of its own. Especially now with the off season coming.

So a place to discuss. Whether Gravel Traps or something else that would actually penalise drivers for going of track should be bought in again, in order to challenge the drivers more.

As personally I feel we see to many mistakes go unpunished. Coming to the fore even more after the stewards lack of action in Abu Dhabi.

Also I will be honest. I preferred F1 with a bit of jeopardy in terms of risking retirement.

[anfield5]

Yes they should. This concrete run-off that drivers can simply drive across without slowing down is absurd. Yes I know the concrete was considered safer than gravel, because a spinning car would generate more friction sliding on it than it would in gravel, but that is not the point I am trying to make.

[steveaki13]

Quite. Case in point at the weekend, Sutil scooting across the run off and passing Maldonado and keeping ahead of Perez. Gravel trap he would have been less hasty in launching down the outside and stayed on track. Also if he had gone wide, he certainly wouldn't be cheating Perez.

In case anyone is going to point out that he was forced wide, I would argue Maldonado out braked himself and as a chasing driver he should have been ready to stay on track and not put himself in a position where he has to go off track.

[rjbetty]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel very strongly about this.

I am using on-screen keyboard at the mo to replace letters e t and z among others, but its hard work...

[dj_bytedisaster]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel very strongly about this.

I am using on-screen keyboard at the mo to replace letters e t and z among others, but its hard work...

If you feel strongly about gravel traps, you should see a therapist. It's a really weird fetish. :|

[steveaki13]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel very strongly about this.

I am using on-screen keyboard at the mo to replace letters e t and z among others, but its hard work...

I knew someone was with me.

or should that be, I kn w som on was wi h m :p

[Rollo]

Is a car when airborne, when landing, if it strikes the ground provide a safer environment?
Moreover, if a car strikes a gravel trap side on, does that provide a safer environment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tClwyQxc7vk

If a driver was unconscious and trapped in an upside-down car, are there adequate provisions to be able to extract and rescue said drivers.

Yes, motor racing is dangerous but the teams who pay very large amounts of dollarpounds, have a right to ask about the return on investment of one of their critical components.

[Robinho]

i'm not keen on gravel traps, on account of the number of cars i've seen turn over when arriving at speed sideways, and also the number of times a tiny mistake, or event not of the drivers doing (anpother driver forcing soeine wide for example) then ends their race. However I am not a fan of the type of things we saw in Abu Dhabi, at least maldonado turned and attempted to come back on track at the nearest possible point, slowing himself by doing so, sutil took the easy option and ploughed on regardless. For me, the resolution to that sort of behavious would be to mandate the car coming to a complete stop before being allowed to re-enter the track, in the event al 4 wheels have left the circuit. Easy to enforce, instatnt drive through if not done. for the occasions where that penalises someone taking avoiding action of an accidend or being forced off by another driver, then the other driver should be penalised (as they already are) for forcing another car off the track. it would be better than avoiding an accident and getting stuck in the gravel, even if you had to stop

[555-04Q2]

Well I for one would like to see gravel traps back. Like others have said above, it's crazy that drivers can just run off the track and carry on like nothing ever happened! Bring them back and make the drivers work to get round the track. The cars are already to easy to drive, get them to work for their money again!

[rjbetty]

Well I for one would like to see gravel traps back. Like others have said above, it's crazy that drivers can just run off the track and carry on like nothing ever happened! Bring them back and make the drivers work to get round the track. The cars are already to easy to drive, get them to work for their money again!

his x 000 (numbrs on and wo on kyboard don' work ihr)

[Tazio]

F11 should have more physical barriers to keep the drivers on the track. Gravel traps are the lesser of evils compared to a substantial physical barrier, as you stand a good chance of getting out the other side if you drive straight into one with a little momentum, say when you are making an evasive maneuver.

We saw what happened to Trulli at Silverstone in 2004, although his impact with the wall took a lot of energy out of that roll.

Then there was "The Great Sino-Anglo Tragedy of 2007". It was simultaneously the funniest, and most damaging (for the championship) beaching in recent F1 history. Really too bad for The Boss, without it he may be a double world champion and perhaps Kimi would still be without one :devil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIxQP5PUSM

[steveaki13]

F11 should have more physical barriers to keep the drivers on the track. Gravel traps are the lesser of evils compared to a substantial physical barrier, as you stand a good chance of getting out the other side if you drive straight into one with a little momentum, say when you are making an evasive maneuver.

We saw what happened to Trulli at Silverstone in 2004, although his impact with the wall took a lot of energy out of that roll.

Then there was "The Great Sino-Anglo Tragedy of 2007". It was simultaneously the funniest, and most damaging (for the championship) beaching in recent F1 history. Really too bad for The Boss, without it he may be a double world champion and perhaps Kimi would still be without one :devil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIxQP5PUSM

For all I know F11 might have barriers, but we are talking F1 here Doc. :devil: ;)

[anfield5]

Is a car when airborne, when landing, if it strikes the ground provide a safer environment?
Moreover, if a car strikes a gravel trap side on, does that provide a safer environment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tClwyQxc7vk

If a driver was unconscious and trapped in an upside-down car, are there adequate provisions to be able to extract and rescue said drivers.

Yes, motor racing is dangerous but the teams who pay very large amounts of dollarpounds, have a right to ask about the return on investment of one of their critical components.

I think we all agree that for safety sake for a number of good reasons concrete run off areas are a better option than gravel Rollo, so what is the alternative? I for one am fed up with the %$#@& F1 stewards penalising drivers later for everything (including running off track onto the concrete landing pads) it ruins the racing, so how can drivers be forced to stay on track and stop taking liberties across said concrete expanses?

You cant use grass it is too slippery esp in the damp, gravel can cause other already mentioned problems, sleeping policemen can launch cars into orbit, catch fencing is deadly.

[inimitablestoo]

There's always walls, of course. Putting ruddy great obstacles in the path is a great incentive to respect track limits...

If not a full-blown gravel trap, then at least a strip of grass or something, to dissuade drivers from going too far, even if there is tarmac beyond that. Perhaps some kind of surface that slows cars to a crawl (well, slows them down anyway) rather than giving them a shorter circuit option. I realise I appear to be advocating spreading treacle on the run-off areas of Grand Prix venues, but hey, it'd be a talking point :p:

Alternatively, just make the kerbs big and proper like they used to be. Check out pictures of the Hungaroring when they first went there in '86 to see what a proper kerb looks like - here's one http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/597x478/m ... n_007a.jpg (http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/597x478/mHPw/manual/87hun_007a.jpg) - something that goes almost halfway up the tyres. Dissuades drivers from disappearing off to the nearest border when cornering.

There is a place for massive tarmac run-offs, but it's at inconsequential places like Montreal's hairpin or La Source at Spa. Not the inside of Eau Rouge, once the most feared corner in Formula 1 but now something I reckon even I'd stand a chance of taking flat in an F1 car (until I sober up).

[steveaki13]

This is the trouble. Eau Rouge is no where near as challenging these days as you can just straight line it if you want. When Gravel was there it was a real challenge.

I know I am sounding like Stirling Moss here, but that bit of extra danger did add something to Racing. Now it seems like Toy Cars at times, back then seemed awe-inspiring

[N. Jones]

I believe Mark Webber said the paved runoffs are better at stopping a car than the gravel traps. I'll say we should stick to the paved runoffs.

[steveaki13]

But not as punishing for those who just go off track and forget that it is a circuit, then go unpunished for screwing someone else's race like Sutil did to Perez.

[anfield5]

Slightly sci-fi idea, that will probably be impossible to implement, but there must be some form of electronic system/field etc, that can trigger the pit lane speed limiter when it is driven over, so why not imbed such wires etc into the concrete run off areas, so when a car goes off track the system activates and the car is slowed way down. This would prevent drivers from short cutting corners and still keep the safe concrete run off areas intact to slow spinning cars down.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ex-Police-Military-Stinger-Spike-Strip-Tyre-Deflater-Movie-Prop-Security-Equip-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/ZG0AAOxyoA1RLioo/$T2eC16J,!w0E9szN((cJBRLionBv6w~~60_35.JPG

This should do the trick.

[anfield5]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ex-Police-Military-Stinger-Spike-Strip-Tyre-Deflater-Movie-Prop-Security-Equip-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/ZG0AAOxyoA1RLioo/$T2eC16J,!w0E9szN((cJBRLionBv6w~~60_35.JPG

This should do the trick.

I like the way you think. It's kinda like mt sci-fi idea but sensible, affordable and doable :)

[555-04Q2]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ex-Police-Military-Stinger-Spike-Strip-Tyre-Deflater-Movie-Prop-Security-Equip-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/ZG0AAOxyoA1RLioo/$T2eC16J,!w0E9szN((cJBRLionBv6w~~60_35.JPG

This should do the trick.

You may not be able to spell your name properly, but you sure have a great idea there :p: Gets my vote :D

[inimitablestoo]

Loved the idea in today's Autosport from a reader who suggested they should fit F1 cars with that sensor that prevents you from taking a supermarket trolley beyond the confines of the supermarket... :D

[steveaki13]

#Like

[555-04Q2]

Good idea! ^^^ Like # 2 ^^^ :D

[henners88]

Gravel traps, kitty litter yep get em back!
There was something satisfying about watching an F1 car upside down in the gravel on a Sunday afternoon. :p

[555-04Q2]

Gravel traps, kitty litter yep get em back!
There was something satisfying about watching an F1 car upside down in the gravel on a Sunday afternoon. :p

"Did I land on the beach!" :p:

[SGWilko]

Gravel traps, kitty litter yep get em back!
There was something satisfying about watching an F1 car upside down in the gravel on a Sunday afternoon. :p

On the proviso that the pilot of said car walks away unscathed. H&S today means you cannot use a ladder without first conducting an assessment. Soon, you will have to assess the assessment and spend all eternity in a vicious circle.

Actually, are vicious allowed anymore???? ;)

[Mia 01]

OK then, why not barriers close to both sides of the track as in Monaco. that will divide the men from the boys.

[steveaki13]

Sounds good.

[Tazio]

Road courses sprinkled in here and there are fine, but if it was at every track it would bring out too many safety cars IMO

[steveaki13]

In all reality you're right Taz.

Coupled with lack of gravel traps these days, is the increase in use of SC. Go back 20 years an hardly ever a SC once it was introduced. Instead cars just ran round the circuit while marshalls dug cars out of the gravel.

Thus today with a return of Gravel, it would lead to SC's 4 or 5 times a race.

[ShiftingGears]

I would like to see their return. It feels very artificial when the racetrack is painted onto the road, and there is currently no significant consequence for running off the road besides the arbitrary penalties applied.

[Tazio]

Of course I meant street courses! :o :angel:

[D-Type]

Has anyone else read David Tremayne's The science of safety? It gives a very good history of the development of safety consciousness and also explains the advantages and disadvantages of different wys to stop an errant car.

There are two separate but not mutually exclusive safety aims:
(1) Protection of spectators
(2) Protection of the drivers

Protection of spectators has seen concrete and Armco barriers which have the prime objective of keeping the car on the circuit away from the spectators. Add a debris fence on top to stop flying bits including wheels. The other method is to move the spectators away from the action.
Protection of the drivers follows two routes: Modify the tracks to somehow slow a car down gradually, which is the key objective: straw bales, tyre barriers, catch fencing, gravel traps, run-off areas. Modify the car to have energy features to protect the driver such as: rubber bag fuel tanks (for fire), rollover bars, wheels with suspension that tears off, crumple zones, HANS devices.

Taking improvements to the cars as a given, the circuits are anywhere between two extremes: a street circuit entirely lined with Armco or concrete barriers (Monaco comes close), a flat patch of desert with a race track marked out on it ( some of the latest Tilke-dromes come close). Showing characteristics of both we have the Las vegas circuit of a few years ago - it was essentially a track marked out in a car park in the middle of the desert, but it was marked out with unyielding concrete barriers.

So where are we now? Most circuits have extensive run-off areas which a driver can run into without damage - just like a Playstation game. So we have to produce artificial rules "Two wheels over the line is ok but four isn't" or whatever the rule is.

What we need is a track that penalises the driver that goes off.

Why not give each corner a solid apex? A kerb, a wall, posts, or anything that hurts if you hit it. That would stop corner cutting. Don't cut the corner and you'll be ok.

On the outside of corners you've got to have something that penalises a driver but won't injure him if he does leave the track, whether from his own volition or not. Smaller run-offs backed up by barriers allows spectators to be nearer but as it's still an artificial barrier it needs enforcement by officials. How about a shallow kerb topped with a rumble strip and a rough run-off area? It would slow errant drivers but shouldn't injure them.
Or go back 100 years, make the run-off zones something like 300-600mm lower than the track and fill them with water - a driver goes off and the car is stopped before it reaches the spectators and the driver doesn't get hurt. To stop a car aquaplaning across you could provide gravel islands in the water which would be enough to make the car sink but not to flip it.
Or simply grease the run-off areas. Put a wheel on them and you spin off.

[anfield5]

Fly paper.

[Storm]

Definitely a need for some gravel traps...all these tarmac runoff areas mean people aren't that worried going into a corner.
On some dangerous spots, they do the job, but do we need them on every corner? nope.

[denkimi]

gravel traps don't need to be very wide. just 1 meter will stop them from going off the road, but will not flip the car.

put a narrow gravel or sand trap on both sides of the circuit, with big asfalt run-off areas after them, and everybody is happy.

[N. Jones]

How about if we bring Travel Graps back and call it a day?