Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel --

[Tazio]

Lewis Hamilton says Red Bull car -- not Sebastian Vettel -- is unbeatable

Mercedes driver says Fernando Alonso is best driver in the field

By: GMM on October 5, 2013

Sebastian Vettel is not the best driver in the F1 field.


That is the view of Lewis Hamilton, who said his old McLaren teammate Fernando Alonso is better than the German.


"Fernando is the strongest driver I've raced against in my life," Hamilton told Germany's Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.


As for Vettel, Hamilton added: "He is not unbeatable; his car is unbeatable."


Hamilton, the 2008 world champion who now drives for Mercedes, concedes that Red Bull's Vettel will surely win the 2013 title.


"When I see him on Sunday before the start of the drivers' parade [in South Korea], I'll probably congratulate him," he said.



Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013100 ... z2gsZSoueq (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20131005/f1/131009882#ixzz2gsZSoueq)

So who cares what The Boss says about Fred and not Kimi? :confused: :stareup: :wave: :dork: ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

He must have read the comment section of the Daily Fail and copy/pasted some of the comments there. Seriously, he still has only half as many wins this year as his own team mate. How can he judge how good or bad Vettel is? After all, he seems to be beating the 'unbeatable' Red Bull car quite regularly, just not both of them.

[Parabolica]

I'm sure Fernando would prefer to have 4 titles to his name and have Lewis say it was all down to the car.

I know I would.

I'm pretty sure Sebastian doesn't give a f--k.

I know I wouldn't.

[henners88]

Fair comment by Hamilton. They are all top level drivers looking for the best car to convert their talent into success. Vettel is in the right place at the right time and the rest can only hope their time comes too. Lewis knows as well as anyone who has raced Vettel that he is beatable, they are all beatable to some extent.

[Parabolica]

Envy is quite an unattractive character trait.

It's something both Fernando and Hamilton suffer from.

It's also part of a competitive nature, so it's something Vettel almost certainly suffers from too.

He just doesn't know it yet.

[Tazio]

Bloody surprised The Boss didn't even mention Kimi.:confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkPGlVqqEP0
I guess Mr. Hamilton rates “Zo” a lot higher than Ice, at this particular stage of their careers

Bro plus:

So for Vettel to pull away from Rosberg at just over two seconds a lap is nothing exceptional in the circumstances, especially given that the Red Bull has proved to be, in terms of consistency from race to race, the fastest car this season.

All the teams are trying to exploit the exhaust gases to improve rear downforce, by directing them in places that are most aerodynamically advantageous.

But the exhaust only gives downforce when the driver is on the throttle. And Vettel commits to the throttle earlier than anyone else. Of course, he can do that because the Red Bull and its Renault engine characteristics make better use of the exhaust gases than other teams - perhaps by as much as 50%.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24386679

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't know how often Lewis has whined this year that Vettel has the best car and only because of it he's winning. It's really funny that Rosberg has a go at Vettel for the "balls in pool" comment, yet his own team mate has a denigrating go at one of his competitors. Could it be that most of them are just hypocritical cry-babies?

I don't like him the least bit, but credit where credit's due - Fernando has been the most level-headed of the lot. Instead of endlessly talking down Vettel's achievements he say that it's up to them (Ferrari) to raise the game and even defended him against Minardi's TC copnspiracy theory. Good on ya, 'nando.

[N. Jones]

Oh yadda, yadda on this topic. Its age old and not worth a bother.

Will Hamilton say that once he is leading the championship (one of these years)?

[Koz]

http://encurva.com/2013/10/04/la-fia-ob ... -en-corea/ (http://encurva.com/2013/10/04/la-fia-obliga-a-redbull-a-modificar-su-ecu-para-participar-en-corea/)

Of course, RBR have some form of Traction Control, had to modify ECU...

[Koz]

Bloody surprised The Boss didn't even mention Kimi.:confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkPGlVqqEP0
I guess Mr. Hamilton rates “Zo” a lot higher than Ice, at this particular stage of their careers


Problem is, Kimi isn't the greatest qualifier, and his starts aren't that great most of the time.

And of course, Hamilton judges Fred by 2007 more than anything else.

[Tazio]

Bloody surprised The Boss didn't even mention Kimi.:confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkPGlVqqEP0
I guess Mr. Hamilton rates “Zo” a lot higher than Ice, at this particular stage of their careers


Problem is, Kimi isn't the greatest qualifier, and his starts aren't that great most of the time.

And of course, Hamilton judges Fred by 2007 more than anything else.I'm pretty sure "The Boss" is judging Fred's total body of work mate!
@0&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&m :laugh:

[dj_bytedisaster]

http://encurva.com/2013/10/04/la-fia-obliga-a-redbull-a-modificar-su-ecu-para-participar-en-corea/

Of course, RBR have some form of Traction Control, had to modify ECU...

They had to modify the ECU before Singapore, not Korea. Incidentally AFTER modifying the ECU they destroyed the field at the Marina Bay circuit. Even Lauda, the boss of their main rival said it was a non-issue. Not surprising that the Spanish came up with this hogwash.

[airshifter]

While Lewis is praising Alonso, Alonso is again blaming the tires. The same tires that are on the Red Bull car. Him and Lewis should get the story straight. :)

I don't think anyone discounts that the RB is the best car in the field, and until we get Seb in another car, or another top driver in the RB, everything else is simply speculation regardless of who is stating it.

[Tazio]

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/f ... 09441.html (http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ferrari/korean-grand-prix/news/vettel-not-the-best-driver_109441.html) :confused: :wave:

[Koz]

[quote="Mr Alca-Tazizzle":2bi1mccw]Bloody surprised The Boss didn't even mention Kimi.:confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkPGlVqqEP0
I guess Mr. Hamilton rates “Zo” a lot higher than Ice, at this particular stage of their careers


Problem is, Kimi isn't the greatest qualifier, and his starts aren't that great most of the time.

And of course, Hamilton judges Fred by 2007 more than anything else.I'm pretty sure "The Boss" is judging Fred's total body of work mate!
@0&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&m :laugh:[/quote:2bi1mccw]

Perhaps, but he has seen him up close and personal, worth just as much if not more.
I assume if he he was paired up with Vettel he could see him in a different light, too.

[F1boat]

This like saying, if you are a Star Wars fan, that it's not Darth Maul who is strong, is the lightsaber. Yes, he had a better lightsaber, but was a master of using it ;)

[steveaki13]

F1Boat.................. Is that you? :eek: :)

[The Black Knight]

He must have read the comment section of the Daily Fail and copy/pasted some of the comments there. Seriously, he still has only half as many wins this year as his own team mate. How can he judge how good or bad Vettel is? After all, he seems to be beating the 'unbeatable' Red Bull car quite regularly, just not both of them.

Half the wins of his teammate haha. He has many more points than his teammate and he's been generally comprehensively outpacing him since Canada. Funny how you left out that part? ;)

Anyway, until such time as Vettel gets into a car that isn't the best in the field and gets a couple of wins under his belt, there really is nothing to disprove about what Hamilton is saying.

Seb is doing a great job and exactly what he needs to do so you can't fault that either but I do see Hammy's point.

[dj_bytedisaster]

[quote="dj_bytedisaster":3rc5uvp5]He must have read the comment section of the Daily Fail and copy/pasted some of the comments there. Seriously, he still has only half as many wins this year as his own team mate. How can he judge how good or bad Vettel is? After all, he seems to be beating the 'unbeatable' Red Bull car quite regularly, just not both of them.

Half the wins of his teammate haha. He has many more points than his teammate and he's been generally comprehensively outpacing him since Canada. Funny how you left out that part? ;)[/quote:3rc5uvp5]

I left that out, because the points are one thing, the wins another. For instance he got gifted points in Malaysia and Rosberg had a much larger share of bad luck this year. It wasn't ment to say Lewis is bad, just merely that he looks silly saying things like that.


Anyway, until such time as Vettel gets into a car that isn't the best in the field and gets a couple of wins under his belt, there really is nothing to disprove about what Hamilton is saying.

He was competitive enough in the Toro Rosso. He still has scored mor points with them than all other TR drivers combined. There is much praise for Hulkenberg driving the 5th or 6th best car to 4th. Vettel did that more than once in a TR, which was no match most of the time for the Ferraris, Macca's, Renaults, Toyota's and BMW/Saubers of the time.


Seb is doing a great job and exactly what he needs to do so you can't fault that either but I do see Hammy's point.
No, I don't. He says the RB is unbeatable. Why then does he constantly outperform one of them and denigrates the driver of the one he doesn't. To me that sounds like sour grapes. Saying 'it's all the car' makes someone look silly, who never had to drive a midfield car, but had top team material all his career.

[henners88]

I think this is simply a case of fans being far too defensive. Lewis is an F1 driver and contrary to popular belief, he is allowed to express his opinion every now and then. It's not exclusive to us forumers and he hasn't exactly said anything controversial here. The Red Bull is the best car on the grid at the moment. Vettel is top class driver and with any top car, it needs a decent driver to deliver the result. If all these top drivers had exactly the same car, I don't think anybody could call who would win. There's barely a fag paper between these guys in terms of talent, but this is a team sport and they all want the best overall package. Hamilton knows how good Vettel is, and he knows Red Bull have the edge. We are from a free speech society so I am happy to hear any of these guys opinions.

[The Black Knight]

I left that out, because the points are one thing, the wins another. For instance he got gifted points in Malaysia and Rosberg had a much larger share of bad luck this year. It wasn't ment to say Lewis is bad, just merely that he looks silly saying things like that.


Rosberg also got gifted a win in Silverstone when Hamilton's car broke down. Over the course of a season it tends to balance itself out. Fact is, he's new to the team, has had trouble with the braking and he's still beating Rosberg - whihch I'm surpised at to be honest as I always rated and still do rate Nico as one of the best.

Back to your point though about him looking silly, we all have our point of view, and I really do feel Hamilton's is valid. In RBR you have one guy on the way to retirement and the other is a youngster at the top of his game - it's hardly a benchmark for Seb.


He was competitive enough in the Toro Rosso. He still has scored mor points with them than all other TR drivers combined. There is much praise for Hulkenberg driving the 5th or 6th best car to 4th. Vettel did that more than once in a TR, which was no match most of the time for the Ferraris, Macca's, Renaults, Toyota's and BMW/Saubers of the time.

I agree that he did a great job in Toro Rosso but that TR wasn't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be at all.


No, I don't. He says the RB is unbeatable. Why then does he constantly outperform one of them and denigrates the driver of the one he doesn't. To me that sounds like sour grapes. Saying 'it's all the car' makes someone look silly, who never had to drive a midfield car, but had top team material all his career.

Though we're dusting off an old chestnut again, Hamilton's 2009 McLaren was a shite car and he still won 3 races in it and could have finished on the podium in the opening race in Oz. To say he's had a top car all his career and never had to drive a midfield is woefully inaccurate as clearly he did have to drive a midfield car in 2009 when he won 3 races :)

The truth is, we can make arguments back and forth about Vettel but as of right now your POV and mine both have merit. Nobody is doubting Vettel is a top driver, I just very much doubt that he's the actual best driver on the grid.


I think this is simply a case of fans being far too defensive. Lewis is an F1 driver and contrary to popular belief, he is allowed to express his opinion every now and then. It's not exclusive to us forumers and he hasn't exactly said anything controversial here. The Red Bull is the best car on the grid at the moment. Vettel is top class driver and with any top car, it needs a decent driver to deliver the result. If all these top drivers had exactly the same car, I don't think anybody could call who would win. There's barely a fag paper between these guys in terms of talent, but this is a team sport and they all want the best overall package. Hamilton knows how good Vettel is, and he knows Red Bull have the edge. We are from a free speech society so I am happy to hear any of these guys opinions.

Spot on. I wish more drivers would express their opinoin like this. Hamilton and Webber are probably the only two left on the grid that will.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Spot on. I wish more drivers would express their opinoin like this. Hamilton and Webber are probably the only two left on the grid that will.

If anything, Vettel and Kimi are the ones, who offer their opinion in a straight-forward manner. All that came from Lewis lately were sour grapes and don't get me started on Mark, he's a hypocritical, pathological liar, who's got a nasty habit of manipulating the media in his favour. There is an endless list of incidents in which Mark fed them bullshit lines to portray himself as the poor victim, when in reality he wasn't. Take 'wing-gate' for example. Who would forget his act of righteous indignation in the presser at Silverstone '10, after the team had 'stolen' his precious front-wing, conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't really feel like it made a difference, while Vettel said, it made the car's handling a lot better for him. But of course it was easier to play the poor wronged underdog. Then we have his arrogant bragging, how he ignored team orders at Silverstone '11 and his declaration that he won't help Vettel ain Brazil 2012, only to play the upset victim when Vettel returned the favour in Malaysia this year. I don't know if that is all Mark's doing or if his girlfriend/manager Ann Neill is behind these media manipulations, but Mark is not one, who's name springs to mind when it comes to straight opinions. He is blunt, but honest he isn't.

[The Black Knight]

[quote="The Black Knight":265aiwk6]
Spot on. I wish more drivers would express their opinoin like this. Hamilton and Webber are probably the only two left on the grid that will.

If anything, Vettel and Kimi are the ones, who offer their opinion in a straight-forward manner. All that came from Lewis lately were sour grapes and don't get me started on Mark, he's a hypocritical, pathological liar, who's got a nasty habit of manipulating the media in his favour. There is an endless list of incidents in which Mark fed them bullshit lines to portray himself as the poor victim, when in reality he wasn't. Take 'wing-gate' for example. Who would forget his act of righteous indignation in the presser at Silverstone '10, after the team had 'stolen' his precious front-wing, conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't really feel like it made a difference, while Vettel said, it made the car's handling a lot better for him. But of course it was easier to play the poor wronged underdog. Then we have his arrogant bragging, how he ignored team orders at Silverstone '11 and his declaration that he won't help Vettel ain Brazil 2012, only to play the upset victim when Vettel returned the favour in Malaysia this year. I don't know if that is all Mark's doing or if his girlfriend/manager Ann Neill is behind these media manipulations, but Mark is not one, who's name springs to mind when it comes to straight opinions. He is blunt, but honest he isn't.[/quote:265aiwk6]

Sour grapes is your interpretation of those events. I see it differently. The wing made a one tenth of a second difference at Silverstone. And remember it was Helmut Marko that said Mark didn't notice the difference. I've never heard this from Mark himself, so the accuracy of your Silverstone portrayal is very much a doubt. As for the rest of your post, there is some in it I agree with, other things in it I don't but this thread is what Hamilton says about Vettel, not Mark ;)

I really don't see how what Lewis said can be seen as sour grapes. The simple fact is that everyone is beatable. Webber has beaten Seb on more than a few occasions. So yeah, everyone is beatable and that applies for every one of the great because ultimately we're all human. No matter how good a job you do, it's always possible that someone else can do better :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

I really don't see how what Lewis said can be seen as sour grapes. The simple fact is that everyone is beatable. Webber has beaten Seb on more than a few occasions. So yeah, everyone is beatable and that applies for every one of the great because ultimately we're all human. No matter how good a job you do, it's always possible that someone else can do better :)

The thing that makes Lewis' statement look like sour grapes is talking down Vettel's abilities while he has to beg his team for suggestions on how to get past a Sauber. His own team mate was just 2 positions behind him and he had an additional stop and you need to keep in mind that said team mate was about to overtake him, when the Merc decided to disintegrate. Talking down other drivers' abilities is a bad idea in general, especially if you haven't got the stats to back it up and saying something like that on a race weekend where one performed mediocre at best is just a bad idea.

[JasonPotato]

I'm pretty certain any of the top drivers would have won a few titles, if not all 4 if they were in Seb's car. So Lewis has a point.

Sour grapes? Why would he have sour grapes now compared to the last 4 years?

[Tazio]

Great dice by Fred, Hulk, and the Boss, even if it was for fourth. All three of those freakin' guys deserve better cars.

“Me and Fernando in fifth and sixth at the end having our own little race, yet we are of a higher caliber than that.
There is just not enough Neweys to go around, with all the championship caliber drivers in the field quite frankly.


The Ferrari driver spent the first part of the race behind the Sauber and could not overtake him.

Later in the race, Alonso was behind the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton, who also failed to pass Hulkenberg.

"What Nico is doing is superb," said Alonso when asked about the German's performance.

"He is driving very, very well and he deserved to be in front of us because he did a fantastic race.

"They [Sauber] were very good this weekend and they are doing a very good job.

"They were in the top three in qualifying at Monza as well, so they are on a high at the moment."

The Spaniard believes that the change in Pirelli's control tyres has played a part in Sauber's upturn in form.

As someone who has been known to support Pirelli in the past, I have to say I’ve gotten really tired of the tire conservation style racing we are subject to. Racing was more exciting when we had refueling and tires that could be pushed for 20 laps. JMHO

Nice thread BTW I started it as a joke :laugh:

[henners88]

[quote="The Black Knight":gpktdtjr]
I really don't see how what Lewis said can be seen as sour grapes. The simple fact is that everyone is beatable. Webber has beaten Seb on more than a few occasions. So yeah, everyone is beatable and that applies for every one of the great because ultimately we're all human. No matter how good a job you do, it's always possible that someone else can do better :)

The thing that makes Lewis' statement look like sour grapes is talking down Vettel's abilities while he has to beg his team for suggestions on how to get past a Sauber. His own team mate was just 2 positions behind him and he had an additional stop and you need to keep in mind that said team mate was about to overtake him, when the Merc decided to disintegrate. Talking down other drivers' abilities is a bad idea in general, especially if you haven't got the stats to back it up and saying something like that on a race weekend where one performed mediocre at best is just a bad idea.[/quote:gpktdtjr]
Myself and Black Knight have not tried to discredit Vettel in our analysis yet you've still felt the need to make a few below the belt remarks about Hamilton in response. I'm not sure it achieves what you intended. I fear you're leading us down the 'my driver is better than your driver avenue' and I can't see the point in that over a pretty valid statement by Hamilton.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Myself and Black Knight have not tried to discredit Vettel in our analysis yet you've still felt the need to make a few below the belt remarks about Hamilton in response. I'm not sure it achieves what you intended. I fear you're leading us down the 'my driver is better than your driver avenue' and I can't see the point in that over a pretty valid statement by Hamilton.

I'm not saying that you tried to discredit anyone. I said that Lewis does and I thought it is uncalled for. Mercedes made the loudest noise over Vettel's 'balls in pool' quip, yet their own driver has denigrated the achievements of a competitor. I'm not keeping count, but it must have been the third or fourth time he's said something like 'It's not Vettel, it's the car'. I think such a thing is not worthy of a world champion as it has a bit of a trash-talky ring to it.
In Lewis' defense though; he's merely repeating the lines he's been fed by the English press since the summer break. Maybe he and Vettel would be better off getting a press person, like Schumacher had with S. Kehm. Both have put their foot firmly in their mouth lately with statements that weren't really thought through, giving their detractors the chance to have a field day with it.

[F1boat]

These day, it is all PR, IMO. Lewis is protecting his brand and although I think that Seb is a special driver in a special car, I can understand why Lewis is trying to downplay his superiority.
But I think that it is a little bit bad for the sport if a true great is not recognized.

[jens]

Maybe the moral of this topic is that we can hardly criticize any drivers for being arrogant. It looks like they can all make arrogant comments depending on context, if we can actually trust the media, that is. Often we can't though.

[anfield5]

Granted over the last four years the RedBull team have produced the best car, but Vettel has at times been great behind the wheel of the thing. If the car was that good it would be Vettel/Webber in almost every race, but how many 1-2 finishes have they had this season... The answer is 1 way back in Malaysia. Hardly points at an unbeatable car that anyone could win in.

I can't imagine Merc are too chuffed with Hamilton's inane comments either, because they are a bit of a swipe at his own team as well. When will this half-wit learn to keep his trap shut?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Granted over the last four years the RedBull team have produced the best car, but Vettel has at times been great behind the wheel of the thing. If the car was that good it would be Vettel/Webber in almost every race, but how many 1-2 finishes have they had this season... The answer is 1 way back in Malaysia. Hardly points at an unbeatable car that anyone could win in.

I can't imagine Merc are too chuffed with Hamilton's inane comments either, because they are a bit of a swipe at his own team as well. When will this half-wit learn to keep his trap shut?

The "secret" is that like the 2011 car this year's car has a form of exhaust blown diffuser, except that they don't do it through engine mapping but through the legal 50ms late ignition of 4 cylinders (4-cylinder mode). This method is even more dependent on the driver adapting to a ridiculously counter-intuitive driving style (e.g. flooring the throttle when the back is about to step out). Vettel manages that, Webber doesn't that's why the big differences in '11 and '13 as opposed to '10 and '12.

[Parabolica]

I've heard Hamilton's comments about F1 becoming boring because it is like the Schumacher dominated years.

And I find it somewhat disingenuous, to be honest.

I do not believe, for a nano-second, that he would say the same if he enjoyed a car good enough to take him to four titles in a row.

He'd love it.

And so would all the others.

I do wish, sometimes, that he could stop pandering to the only-able-to-concentrate-for-a-second, raised-on-a-diet-of-sound-bites MTV kids whose interest in F1 relies on instant entertainment and the success of their chosen favourite.

Great racer, I'm happy to admit.

[The Black Knight]

[quote="The Black Knight":1lnfnntj]
I really don't see how what Lewis said can be seen as sour grapes. The simple fact is that everyone is beatable. Webber has beaten Seb on more than a few occasions. So yeah, everyone is beatable and that applies for every one of the great because ultimately we're all human. No matter how good a job you do, it's always possible that someone else can do better :)

The thing that makes Lewis' statement look like sour grapes is talking down Vettel's abilities while he has to beg his team for suggestions on how to get past a Sauber. His own team mate was just 2 positions behind him and he had an additional stop and you need to keep in mind that said team mate was about to overtake him, when the Merc decided to disintegrate. Talking down other drivers' abilities is a bad idea in general, especially if you haven't got the stats to back it up and saying something like that on a race weekend where one performed mediocre at best is just a bad idea.[/quote:1lnfnntj]

As for a mediocre weekend, he out qualified his teammate and was quite far ahead of him when his tires gave away bu you do make valid points. It was very strange the way Hamilton's tire just went suddenly as they did. He has changed his driving style to suit the tires and even in the final phase of the race he managed to preserve them pretty well so I don't know what happened there. Unfortunately, for Hamilton, I do believe that this type of F1 plays against him, such is his natural aggressive style. He can't push 100% lap after lap which is what he wants to do, so maybe that is part of why his tires gave way in Korea. he has made them last well at times that Nico hasn't, so I don't think there's any real evidence for us to go on and say that why he lost so much time was all down to him being mediocre, it more likely to do with the car, but it is possible that he may have unintentionally overcooked them alright - I'm open to that possibility and if so he'll learn from it I'm sure.

Just for the record, the only all time great I currently see on the grid today is Alonso. He has proven that, in my opinion. Though I am a massive Hamilton fan, I don't regard him as one of the all time greats yet and he has work to do in order to prove that but so did Alonso 3 years ago. Though Seb is now about to win 4 in a row, at times it has seemed he just has had a massive car advantage over the field. If he could do something like Alonso did last year or something equally impressive I'd then regard him as an all time great.

[anfield5]

Granted over the last four years the RedBull team have produced the best car, but Vettel has at times been great behind the wheel of the thing. If the car was that good it would be Vettel/Webber in almost every race, but how many 1-2 finishes have they had this season... The answer is 1 way back in Malaysia. Hardly points at an unbeatable car that anyone could win in.

I can't imagine Merc are too chuffed with Hamilton's inane comments either, because they are a bit of a swipe at his own team as well. When will this half-wit learn to keep his trap shut?

The "secret" is that like the 2011 car this year's car has a form of exhaust blown diffuser, except that they don't do it through engine mapping but through the legal 50ms late ignition of 4 cylinders (4-cylinder mode). This method is even more dependent on the driver adapting to a ridiculously counter-intuitive driving style (e.g. flooring the throttle when the back is about to step out). Vettel manages that, Webber doesn't that's why the big differences in '11 and '13 as opposed to '10 and '12.

You are quite correct. But doesn't this further indicate that Vettel is something a little bit special, being able to adapt and drive in a counter intuitive way to get the best out of the car?

[dj_bytedisaster]

You are quite correct. But doesn't this further indicate that Vettel is something a little bit special, being able to adapt and drive in a counter intuitive way to get the best out of the car?

I'm not in the camp of people, who have a need to categorize people as being 'special' or 'all time greats'. In the end, those that we called the all time greats usually drove the best cars of their time. You simply don't win world championships in the 4th best car on the grid. Simple as that. What sets apart a very good driver from a good one is the ability to sustain a challenge over a whole season.

For me there are three groups of drivers - champion material, solid drivers and those, who shouldn't be in F1. Assignment to these groups isn't static, it changes with time. Young drivers, no matter what they did in junior formulae always start in the 'soild' group as they cannot have the experience required to sustain a championship campaign for a full year. Some make it into the 'championship material' group. Some sooner, some later. Currently we have four of those - Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Räikkönen. All others IMHO have too many 'off days' for a sustained challenge. Hulk could be one, who could make the 'promotion' some day.

I don't think it is worth the hassle to compare the current four 'champion material' drivers as each have their own specific strengths and weaknesses. The fact that Vettel is currently ahead of the other two is, that he is in a team where he can use his specific strength - adaptability and methodical work - to full effect, while for instance the Merc aggravates one of Hamilton's weaknesses, not being able to drive a smooth style. Same goes for the Ferrari. Alonso has always been better on Sundays than he was on Saturdays. The fact that Ferrari build cars that are weak in qualifying compounds Alonso's predicament. That doesn't make Hamilton or Alonso any better or worse than Vettel. They are merely not in the right place or they lack the ability of people like Senna or Schumacher, who could tell the engineers exactly what they wanted and developed the cars to suit their preference.

The harsh reaction to Vettel's alleged dominance (people forget that until after Hungary the races were far from foregone conclusions and that we had 7 different winners last year) is down to something completely different. Back in the day, when the Schumacher/Ferrari era began, there was only one other driver in the 'championship material' group, while today there are three others, who want to add to the titles they've already won. That's three major fanbases, who feel like getting shafted for the fourth year in a row. That's why there is so much backlash, especially since Vettel has the wrong nationality. Many of the Hamilton crowd (Brits) traditionally don't take kindly to being beaten by Germans, even less so if it happens 11 times in 20 years. The Spanish (Alonso crowd) and the Italians (Tifosi) are currently not exactly Germany fans either, because they've been getting fed by their national media for a long time, that Germany is to blame for the fact their own governments brankrupted their own countries.

[Tazio]

Maybe the moral of this topic is that we can hardly criticize any drivers for being arrogant. It looks like they can all make arrogant comments depending on context, if we can actually trust the media, that is. Often we can't though.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Well stated Jens! Who actually gives a crap what they say, as long as what they are saying is what they think is the truth, or their honest perceptions of the truth? It seems to me that it is human nature to point out the inequities (for whatever reason they exist) by freakin’ guys like Fred and The Boss, because they get asked questions that lead to those comparisons. Vettel doesn't have to say shit obviously. And Kimi is just not engaging in the game because that is part of his deal, which is cool!!! Alright? ;)

[Mia 01]

What else could he say, that he is a much worse driver than Seb?

Boring, for who, for Lewis and his fans?

[Ari33]

[quote="dj_bytedisaster":1zwwhc2r][quote="The Black Knight":1zwwhc2r]Just for the record, the only all time great I currently see on the grid today is Alonso. He has proven that, in my opinion. Though I am a massive Hamilton fan, I don't regard him as one of the all time greats yet and he has work to do in order to prove that but so did Alonso 3 years ago. Though Seb is now about to win 4 in a row, at times it has seemed he just has had a massive car advantage over the field. If he could do something like Alonso did last year or something equally impressive I'd then regard him as an all time great.[/quote:1zwwhc2r][/quote:1zwwhc2r]

Wow, My thoughts exactly!

I wouldn't call myself a die-hard Alonso fan but I have to admit he is something a bit special. He has continued to impress year in year out and I see him as being the best all rounder, able to get the very best (and then some) out of whatever car or situation he is given. While he may not be the absolute quickest driver in terms of single lap pace, his abilities in all other areas outweigh that... as we have witnessed so consistently over the years.

In comparison, I don't feel Lewis is quite so well rounded in terms of guile and self belief but he does have amazing single lap pace, is an absolute joy to watch when all is going well, and like Alonso, Kimi etc I believe he would also be a multi world champion if he/they had been in the RB these last few years.

Where does that leave Vetel ? I have no doubts he is also right up there or there abouts but as with most multi World Champions he has definitely in the right car/team at the right time. I think we will only find out just how good he is when we have a great yardstick as team mate with which to measure him against. Until then.....


I think Lewis stating the obvious probably points to low self esteem (if he feels he feels the need to defend his lack of recent success).. than anything else.

[Parabolica]

Boring, for who, for Lewis and his fans?

No Mr Alca, this is the correct answer!

[Parabolica]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24428367

No, Lewis, it doesn't bore real fans.

It may well bore those who have limited interest, and those who have Attention Deficit Disorder. It almost certainly bores those who would consider playing a computer game if their favourite isn't winning, and those raised on a diet of unreality-Playstation-instant-excitement, but real fans?

No.

[Bagwan]

Since Lewis was so bored , it makes me wonder why he bothered to wake up for the podium .

He was so bored , he wanted some of what the shoe was serving .

But , cut the masses some slack , my friend . They know not what they say .

[Tazio]

I don't think it makes F1 in general any more boring. Predictable outcomes are very common in sports, dynasty's come and go and the sport rolls on, just deal with it fellas.

[Parabolica]

But it's not fair!

The best team keeps winning!

[Mia 01]

The best car keeps winning and winning, year after year after year.

Let change the rules says Mr Bernie E, would you like it Lewis?

[Parabolica]

It seems that Lewis has now taken to Twitter to "clarify" his comments.

No doubt the more cynical here would think that the Mercedes PR machine and his management have had a word. Some of the less charitable may even think that, whilst a very talented driver, he hasn't got much between the ears.

The really uncharitable would maybe go so far as to say that, whilst he craves a cool image, his statements are a sign that he is anything but cool.

I would not be so cynical or uncharitable, of course.

Perish the thought.

[jens]

It seems that Lewis has now taken to Twitter to "clarify" his comments.

No doubt the more cynical here would think that the Mercedes PR machine and his management have had a word. Some of the less charitable may even think that, whilst a very talented driver, he hasn't got much between the ears.

The really uncharitable would maybe go so far as to say that, whilst he craves a cool image, his statements are a sign that he is anything but cool.

I would not be so cynical or uncharitable, of course.

Perish the thought.

Or simply the media misunderstood, what Hamilton wanted to say. And more crucially all the people/fanboys misunderstood based on their agenda depending on which fence anyone sits - "see, I always said Hamilton is arrogant!" or "see, I always said Vettel is not good, him winning is unfair!"

Storm in a teacup as always.

[Parabolica]

Yes, a storm in a tea cup, I agree.

But, if I had to clarify what I meant, I'd avoid tea cups to have a storm in.

I think 99.9999% of all drivers comments are, in the scheme of things, very small storms in tiny cups anyway.

But they are also portals into their souls.

Or can be, when they forget to activate the PR speech mode.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Or can be, when they forget to activate the PR speech mode.

But wasn't the abolishment of all the stream-lined PR talk what we all find so cool about Kimi? The problem is, Vettel and Hamilton in particular have been in young drivers programs since very early age (11 VET, 13 HAM), so they've been indoctrinated with PR speak since they stopped soiling their diapers. They never learned to express their thoughts uncensored.

It's not surprising that it is these two, who plant their foot in their mouth the most.

[anfield5]

Or can be, when they forget to activate the PR speech mode.

But wasn't the abolishment of all the stream-lined PR talk what we all find so cool about Kimi? The problem is, Vettel and Hamilton in particular have been in young drivers programs since very early age (11 VET, 13 HAM), so they've been indoctrinated with PR speak since they stopped soiling their diapers. They never learned to express their thoughts uncensored.

It's not surprising that it is these two, who plant their foot in their mouth the most.

Very good point.

This is the main reason why I will miss hearing from Mark Webber.

[Parabolica]

Webber can be entertainingly off-message at times, granted.

Speaking your mind is fine.

So long as you're not talking bollocks.

Then, it's best not to say anything.

Kimi is smart enough, for example, to do that.

But saying nothing isn't the same as being cool.

There hasn't been a cool driver for a while.

[easy rider]

Speaking your mind is fine.

Kimi is smart enough, for example, to do that.

Do you mean like this earlier interview with Brundle


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MlsMVzrp2o

[Tazio]

I've heard Hamilton's comments about F1 becoming boring because it is like the Schumacher dominated years.

And I find it somewhat disingenuous, to be honest.

I do not believe, for a nano-second, that he would say the same if he enjoyed a car good enough to take him to four titles in a row.

He'd love it.

And so would all the others.

I do wish, sometimes, that he could stop pandering to the only-able-to-concentrate-for-a-second, raised-on-a-diet-of-sound-bites MTV kids whose interest in F1 relies on instant entertainment and the success of their chosen favourite.

Great racer, I'm happy to admit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAiKovUL8FM

[Parabolica]

Erm, no.

That actually illustrates my suggestion that it is better to say nothing than talk bollocks.

Having no class is a long, long way from being cool.

[555-04Q2]

Well to a degree Lewis is right. I mean, if Vettel was driving a diesel Astra he wouldn't be winning would he? But, it is the combination of car and driver that is important. This can be measured against a drivers teammate. Vettel has been killing Webber for a number of years now so it could be argued that Vettel IS that good and Lewis is just whining cause he aint got THAT car to drive!

[ShiftingGears]

It's almost always the best car/driver combination that wins titles. I don't think what Lewis said was particularly controversial.


The really uncharitable would maybe go so far as to say that, whilst he craves a cool image, his statements are a sign that he is anything but cool.

I find him quite nauseating most of the time to be honest.



Or simply the media misunderstood, what Hamilton wanted to say. And more crucially all the people/fanboys misunderstood based on their agenda depending on which fence anyone sits - "see, I always said Hamilton is arrogant!" or "see, I always said Vettel is not good, him winning is unfair!"

[Tazio]

Wow, My thoughts exactly!

I wouldn't call myself a die-hard Alonso fan but I have to admit he is something a bit special. He has continued to impress year in year out and I see him as being the best all rounder, able to get the very best (and then some) out of whatever car or situation he is given. While he may not be the absolute quickest driver in terms of single lap pace, his abilities in all other areas outweigh that... as we have witnessed so consistently over the years.

In comparison, I don't feel Lewis is quite so well rounded in terms of guile and self belief but he does have amazing single lap pace, is an absolute joy to watch when all is going well, and like Alonso, Kimi etc I believe he would also be a multi world champion if he/they had been in the RB these last few years.

Where does that leave Vetel ? I have no doubts he is also right up there or there abouts but as with most multi World Champions he has definitely in the right car/team at the right time. I think we will only find out just how good he is when we have a great yardstick as team mate with which to measure him against. Until then.....


I think Lewis stating the obvious probably points to low self esteem (if he feels he feels the need to defend his lack of recent success).. than anything else.
Here is the deal in F1 now as opposed to when Mike dominated; beside all the testing and technical rules having changed, Mike didn't have 4 other relatively current WDC to race week in and week out. He may have still dominated but you would have more detractors as you have now in regard Seb. Bro right or wrong it doesn’t diminish what he has achieved, just like Mike. At least Renault, Williams and McLaren could beat Mike and Rubens occasionally. The cars were better matched IMO in Mikes case he4 really was that much better than almost all the rest of the field. To me and this of course is largely subjective, however I think Seb fits nicely on par with The Boss, Fred, Ice, Hulk, and maybe even Jense. :stareup:

[Mia 01]

Lewis and Fernando isn´t the most humble drivers on the grid. They and their teams should show results insted of talk them self up.

[555-04Q2]

Is it just me or is Vettel pretty cool, calm, level headed and down to earth considering he's about to become a 4 X WDC at the age of 26!?

We forget, he's only just gone from being a teenager to a young man in the last few 5 years.

[Mia 01]

Is it just me or is Vettel pretty cool, calm, level headed and down to earth considering he's about to become a 4 X WDC at the age of 26!?

We forget, he's only just gone from being a teenager to a young man in the last few 5 years.

Seb got not much to worry about.

[Tazio]

Lewis and Fernando isn´t the most humble drivers on the grid. They and their teams should show results insted of talk them self up.
Lewis and Fred are only answering questions Mia, and if you read something other than the Scandinavian press you would read about how effusive both are in talking up all the drivers when they do well, including Seb and Kimi. They are in front of the press a lot, and generally the quotes you belittle are in response to specific questions as they are asked. God you sure can be a petty little twat. :kiss:

[Mia 01]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.

[Tazio]

dp inverted

[Tazio]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.
:stareup: :laugh: What you see as arrogance others are reminded by their teams and their agent, is that it is part of the job, and only overly sensitive little poop-butts would find the verbal grutuities as arrogant, (becausre that is bro lame) lame, because you don't get how close these freakin' guys come to dying in the car. That's not arrogqant for guys who freakin' go out and drive fast enoughh to kill themselves and other bro's as well. What unmitigatted (or imply I think) gall to deny f1 pilots an ocassional bout with arrogance fool!
It's that on the fucking the edge scro!!! :uhoh: :vampire: :cool:

[Tazio]

Mexican fire in Japan! :eek:
:

[Tazio]

Come on Zo!@ and Kimi.

[Roamy]

it is all about the car - go back to a 6speed h pattern - steel brakes and a clutch and you could really see who the best driver is. I suppose if you want to see who the best driver is with the current cars you could just shoot newey.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Even in the good old days it was all about the cars. Except 1994 and 1982, the title was almost always won in the best car and the driver, who could make the most of it. Shooting Newey would acomplish nothing. Some other team would take over the dominant position (probably Merc). Newey isn't the only one working on the RB. They have the best and most consistent pitstops - not Neweys work - they also for most races have the best strategy, not Neweys work either. People seem to forget that Newey cars didn't win a single title between 2000 and 2010. He ain't god.

[Parabolica]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.

Thing is, Kimi isn't short of arrogance.

Not adapting to the culture of the team that pays you is nothing short of extreme arrogance

Hopefully, Kimi won't make that mistake again.

If he does, then the Tifosi will hate him for it.

[Tazio]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.

Thing is, Kimi isn't short of arrogance.

Not adapting to the culture of the team that pays you is nothing short of extreme arrogance

Hopefully, Kimi won't make that mistake again.

If he does, then the Tifosi will hate him for it.
I think it is a good thing that Ferrari® will prosper. Plus Ice, and Zo are two mature talented /respedctful, and will enjoy being team bro mates. :confused:
May the forza be with both of them. If the new c halledngber really is fast Kimi will not be able to han g with Frfed! :(

I just hope it is one fast challednger, because Fred will cestroy Ice it is fair to say to say!:angel:

[dj_bytedisaster]

I just hop;e it is oned of the fasterst cvars because Frfed will dcestroy kimi I'm afraid tio say!:angel:

Did you type that with your teeth or are you wasted? :laugh:

[Tazio]

Plowed :D

[Tazio]

I just hope it is one of the fasterst challengers that the "Scuds" come up with, because Fred will destroy kimi with talent I think it is fair to say!
:angel: :stareup: :sailor:

[N4D13]

Even in the good old days it was all about the cars. Except 1994 and 1982, the title was almost always won in the best car and the driver, who could make the most of it. Shooting Newey would acomplish nothing. Some other team would take over the dominant position (probably Merc). Newey isn't the only one working on the RB. They have the best and most consistent pitstops - not Neweys work - they also for most races have the best strategy, not Neweys work either. People seem to forget that Newey cars didn't win a single title between 2000 and 2010. He ain't god.
That said, the fact remains - Red Bull and Vettel are clearly ahead of the rest, whereas Merc, Lotus and Ferrari are way closer. Having Sebastian out of the equation would blow the WDC way open.

[airshifter]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.

Thing is, Kimi isn't short of arrogance.

Not adapting to the culture of the team that pays you is nothing short of extreme arrogance

Hopefully, Kimi won't make that mistake again.

If he does, then the Tifosi will hate him for it.

As in the past, Ferrari want team players. Rather than adapt to the person the brings them a WDC, they fire them in search of someone that tows the party line. And so far it's working out really well for them isn't it?

Kimi brought them a title, and supported the team when the other driver had the upper hand. Fernando has done neither to the extent that Kimi has, blaming issues on the car and demanding the number 1 spot on the team to the point of childish and crying on the radio when Felipe was obviously faster.

Hopefully Ferrari and the blinded tifosi won't make the mistake again. ;)

[Tazio]

I´m not so found of arrogant drivers, they lack moore than one thing. Soon they lack four WDC:s unlike an another driver.

Talk is sceap, the other ting, well talk to your team then.

Thing is, Kimi isn't short of arrogance.

Not adapting to the culture of the team that pays you is nothing short of extreme arrogance

Hopefully, Kimi won't make that mistake again.

If he does, then the Tifosi will hate him for it.

As in the past, Ferrari want team players. Rather than adapt to the person the brings them a WDC, they fire them in search of someone that tows the party line. And so far it's working out really well for them isn't it?

Kimi brought them a title, and supported the team when the other driver had the upper hand


:stareup: Unlike Kimi, No driver at Ferrari has gotten the upper hand perforrmance
wise over Fred, not even close. Fred will punk Ice as badly as he clocked Felipe, who, in turn punked Kimi 1 and 1/2 seasons dude, an dude took it like a bro punk it is in that is in the recrod book not conjecture :dozey :laugh:
Zo will shread him as punk-worthy as he's dusting bro off Felipe. No problem scrub bro dude! :cool:

[Koz]

:stareup: Unlike Kimi, No driver at Ferrari has gotten the upper hand perforrmance
wise over Fred, not even close. Fred will punk Ice as badly as he clocked Felipe, who, in turn punked Kimi 1 and 1/2 seasons dude, an dude took it like a bro punk it is in the recrd book n t conjecture :dozey :laugh:
Zo will shread him as punk-worthy as he's dusting bro off Felipe. No problem scrub bro dude! :cool:

Kimi was brored... He just wanted teh vodka flavoured ice cream.

They'll be very close. Alonso will take it, but point difference will be less than 10%.

[Tazio]

Closer to 20% ;)

[Parabolica]

It's Seb.

The difference is Seb.

For sure, the RB9 is the best car overall, but Vettel makes it extra-special.

As all the Greats have done, given the best car.

[airshifter]

:stareup: Unlike Kimi, No driver at Ferrari has gotten the upper hand perforrmance
wise over Fred, not even close. Fred will punk Ice as badly as he clocked Felipe, who, in turn punked Kimi 1 and 1/2 seasons dude, an dude took it like a bro punk it is in that is in the recrod book not conjecture :dozey :laugh:
Zo will shread him as punk-worthy as he's dusting bro off Felipe. No problem scrub bro dude! :cool:

Unlike Fernando, Kimi didn't whine and cry.... he raced. Remind me, how much was the fine imposed on Ferrari for team orders that took place at the German Grand Prix? With Todt no longer calling the shots and Stefano calling the shots, Felipe wasn't likely to ever play on a level field.

As for record books let's review total WDCs by current and future Ferrari drivers:

Massa - 0

Alonso - 0

Kimi - 1


You can talk hodadanese scub bro punk all you want, but the record shows only 1 of the three has ever won a title for Ferrari. Being the topic I was addressing was the arrogance, it seems that the tifosi, Fred, and Stefano have all had quite a bit of it. Kimi just quietly won a title, without a need for team orders and obvious # 1 status on the team.

[555-04Q2]

Wonder what Hamilton has to say now after the Japanese GP this weekend? Brilliant race by Seb yesterday.

[henners88]

Wonder what Hamilton has to say now after the Japanese GP this weekend? Brilliant race by Seb yesterday.
I doubt Hamilton's opinion is going to change after one race. He's personally raced against Seb for the last decade and knows how good he is. The race could have gone either way too if we consider the start. The racing incident which can not be blamed solely on either driver could have benefited Hamilton had Seb experienced the worse luck. It's just one of those things in racing. Seb drove excellently and won the race like the top driver he is. Lewis knows his good he is and Seb knows how good Lewis is.

[Mia 01]

Wonder what Hamilton has to say now after the Japanese GP this weekend? Brilliant race by Seb yesterday.
I doubt Hamilton's opinion is going to change after one race. He's personally raced against Seb for the last decade and knows how good he is. The race could have gone either way too if we consider the start. The racing incident which can not be blamed solely on either driver could have benefited Hamilton had Seb experienced the worse luck. It's just one of those things in racing. Seb drove excellently and won the race like the top driver he is. Lewis knows his good he is and Seb knows how good Lewis is.

Fully agree on this one.

[555-04Q2]

Wonder what Hamilton has to say now after the Japanese GP this weekend? Brilliant race by Seb yesterday.
I doubt Hamilton's opinion is going to change after one race. He's personally raced against Seb for the last decade and knows how good he is. The race could have gone either way too if we consider the start. The racing incident which can not be blamed solely on either driver could have benefited Hamilton had Seb experienced the worse luck. It's just one of those things in racing. Seb drove excellently and won the race like the top driver he is. Lewis knows his good he is and Seb knows how good Lewis is.

Judging by Lewis's whining, I don't think he really appreciates what Seb has achieved. Sounds more like sour grapes to me than anything else. Saying the car is winning and not Seb is trying to detract from Seb's ability and saying it's purely the car. I disagree, I think it's a combination of both.

[henners88]

[quote="555-04Q2":22kk0r5y]Wonder what Hamilton has to say now after the Japanese GP this weekend? Brilliant race by Seb yesterday.
I doubt Hamilton's opinion is going to change after one race. He's personally raced against Seb for the last decade and knows how good he is. The race could have gone either way too if we consider the start. The racing incident which can not be blamed solely on either driver could have benefited Hamilton had Seb experienced the worse luck. It's just one of those things in racing. Seb drove excellently and won the race like the top driver he is. Lewis knows his good he is and Seb knows how good Lewis is.

Judging by Lewis's whining, I don't think he really appreciates what Seb has achieved. Sounds more like sour grapes to me than anything else. Saying the car is winning and not Seb is trying to detract from Seb's ability and saying it's purely the car. I disagree, I think it's a combination of both.[/quote:22kk0r5y]
I think at the level of these guys they know how important having a good car is. Lewis knows he can match Seb, so the acknowledgment that Seb has a better car is not sour grapes but racing fact. Vettels ability is being recognised by the fact he is winning multiple world titles. We could have a very different picture this season where Hamilton or the Ferrari drivers could be given a car superior to the rest. It takes a good driver to deliver results, but without the car, talent delivers nothing in modern f1. I think Hamilton recognises Vettel as an equal, but also strongly hints there is an important technological factor too.

[Warriwa]

I think that all the people who continually call Webber a donkey are devaluing Vettel's incredible talent.
Webber was known as a team mate killer before Vettel arrived, and then suddenly he is no good?
Vettel is the only one who has been able to dominate Webber. Imo, if Alonso or Hamilton were in the other red bull car,
Vettel would give them a nasty surprise with his speed. I have never seen another driver so focused before a race.
His need to win is pathological, a replica of Schumacher. I would give anything to see any of the top three in the same team,
but unfortunately I doubt it will ever happen.

[N. Jones]

I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

[Warriwa]

I agree that Webber's car is not up to the same standard as Vettel's.
There have been numerous occasions when I have raised my eyebrows. At Spa, Vettel cruised past Hamilton
on the straight without DRS and later Webber couldn't pass Rosberg on the straight with DRS wide open.
Even so, I still think Vettel would surprise Alonso and Hamilton if in the same team. He has them worried.

[Mia 01]

Seb is very consistent at the highest level possible.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

I don't think so. People forget that Mark would have been out of Red Bull by 2011 at the latest, if he wasn't a personal friend and protegé of Dietrich Mateschitz himself. What do you think would happen if the owner finds out that Horner & Co have given his personal favourite a weaker car?

[Zico]

Despite the press trying to portray a degree of disrespect between both drivers, Lewis clearly likes and respects Seb.... this video clip proves it. :eek: :laugh:

http://deadspin.com/lewis-hamilton-play ... autoplay=1 (http://deadspin.com/lewis-hamilton-plays-with-his-balls-shakes-sebastian-v-1444410640/@matthardigree?autoplay=1)



The flaccid and the furious? :D

[henners88]

Haha brilliant! :)

[555-04Q2]

If I was Seb I would poes klap Lewis big time!!!!!!

[Rollo]

I think that all the people who continually call Webber a donkey are devaluing Vettel's incredible talent.
Webber was known as a team mate killer before Vettel arrived, and then suddenly he is no good?

I don't think that "suddenly he is no good", I thought that always "he is no good".


Webber will never win a World Championship and unless he's given the best car in the field, probably will never win a race either.
- 25th Mar 2006

I think I was right on both counts. Webber will now never win a World Championship and only because he was given the best car in the field, did he ever win a race; even then, Seb had won three before Webber won his first.

[Tazio]

:stareup: Well played sir!

[N. Jones]

[quote="N. Jones":2zidc06x]I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

I don't think so. People forget that Mark would have been out of Red Bull by 2011 at the latest, if he wasn't a personal friend and protegé of Dietrich Mateschitz himself. What do you think would happen if the owner finds out that Horner & Co have given his personal favourite a weaker car?[/quote:2zidc06x]

I think Mark would still be there after this year if he had won the 2010 title.

[Tazio]

[quote="dj_bytedisaster":2kprs4dv][quote="N. Jones":2kprs4dv]I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

I don't think so. People forget that Mark would have been out of Red Bull by 2011 at the latest, if he wasn't a personal friend and protegé of Dietrich Mateschitz himself. What do you think would happen if the owner finds out that Horner & Co have given his personal favourite a weaker car?[/quote:2kprs4dv]

I think Mark would still be there after this year if he had won the 2010 title.[/quote:2kprs4dv]
If Chopper won in 2010 it would have altered the trajectory of F1 events dramatically for certain pilots, and teams of course. :confused:

[555-04Q2]

I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

:erm: :confused: :crazy:

[SGWilko]

[quote="N. Jones":3lio7nfc]I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

:erm: :confused: :crazy:[/quote:3lio7nfc]

I suspect the car is suited to Seb's driving style. Remember also that Mark is not the sveltest of pilots......

[555-04Q2]

[quote="N. Jones":1agtjl32]I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

:erm: :confused: :crazy:

I suspect the car is suited to Seb's driving style. Remember also that Mark is not the sveltest of pilots......[/quote:1agtjl32]

They both got 4 wheels, and engine and a steering wheel. To quote Martin Lawrence, "what the problem is?" :p:

[henners88]

[quote="N. Jones"]I think the difference between Webber and Vettel is the car, not their talent.

:erm: :confused: :crazy:

I suspect the car is suited to Seb's driving style. Remember also that Mark is not the sveltest of pilots......[/quote:26kq5to6]

They both got 4 wheels, and engine and a steering wheel. To quote Martin Lawrence, "what the problem is?" :p:
These drivers do have acquired tastes where handling and set up is concerned though. Red Bull will naturally support the driver who is most likely to succeed however and it's obvious Vettel is their man. He's had the emotional support of the team since at least 2010, so it's a fair assumption to consider the design cater for his needs primarily when preparing the car. Webber leaves the sport with a decent amount of success though and the knowledge that on his day, even Vettel couldn't match him. Rare, but a nice achievement nonetheless. :)

[555-04Q2]

Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)

[henners88]

Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)
We as fans don't know how tense the working environment is within the team though. Webber is a world class racing driver, I don't think anybody can have any doubts about that. You don't have a career in F1 as long as he's had if you don't get the job done with the tools available. Nobody expects Mark to beat Vettel over the course of a season. He's 10 years older than his team mate and past his peak in F1 terms. However its clear his relationship with Red Bull is not as lovely as Vettel's. Red Bull's priority is to win both titles and they make no secret of the fact they support Seb in regards to the drivers title. They have to because he brings the results. Webber has a good car to compete, however I don't think he gets his way in regards to where the team go in development and feel he is driving a car designed around Vettel's needs but adapted for his. For many drivers that is a compromise. That is speculation by myself of course, but its how I read it.


Having the emotional support of the team is a very important factor IMO. Just look at McLaren in 2007 where both drivers had a car designed for neither of them, but nonetheless equal machinery all season long. Alonso fell out with the team and their emotional support went to Hamilton. It resulted in arguably the best driver in the sport, a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year. A tense atmosphere can have a significant effect on a drivers campaign IMHO. :)

[kfzmeister]

a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year.

Sorry to jump in here, mate, but 109 points to 109 points is not finishing behind. And please don't start with "He had more second place finishes"...... :erm:

[henners88]

a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year.

Sorry to jump in here, mate, but 109 points to 109 points is not finishing behind. And please don't start with "He had more second place finishes"...... :erm:
I wasn't trying to discredit Alonso but the simple fact is Hamilton finished ahead that season in the final standings. They scored the same number of points but unfortunately in the Formula One World Championship they can't allow drivers to share championship places, therefore they couldn't both finish second. It went down to finishing positions and in the final standings for the 2007 season it ranks Raikkonen 1st, Hamilton 2nd, and Alonso 3rd. If you disagree with that, please suggest something I've missed :)

It was a pretty insignificant point concerning the thread really.

[555-04Q2]

Yeah I know, but at the end of the day they are professionals, the world's elite (supposedly) and the cars are the same besides their personal chosen setup choices for each race :)
We as fans don't know how tense the working environment is within the team though. Webber is a world class racing driver, I don't think anybody can have any doubts about that. You don't have a career in F1 as long as he's had if you don't get the job done with the tools available. Nobody expects Mark to beat Vettel over the course of a season. He's 10 years older than his team mate and past his peak in F1 terms. However its clear his relationship with Red Bull is not as lovely as Vettel's. Red Bull's priority is to win both titles and they make no secret of the fact they support Seb in regards to the drivers title. They have to because he brings the results. Webber has a good car to compete, however I don't think he gets his way in regards to where the team go in development and feel he is driving a car designed around Vettel's needs but adapted for his. For many drivers that is a compromise. That is speculation by myself of course, but its how I read it.


Having the emotional support of the team is a very important factor IMO. Just look at McLaren in 2007 where both drivers had a car designed for neither of them, but nonetheless equal machinery all season long. Alonso fell out with the team and their emotional support went to Hamilton. It resulted in arguably the best driver in the sport, a double World Champion finishing behind his team mate in the World Championship that year. A tense atmosphere can have a significant effect on a drivers campaign IMHO. :)

I can agree that team spirit is important and maybe if one driver feels unwelcome or under appreciated he may say stuff it and won't perform to the best of their ability. But we need to remember that these are very well paid individuals, the crème of the crop and they are supposed to deal with any pressure(s) that come their way. After all, they are employees and this is a business more than a sport these days.

I can understand if RBR prefer Seb over Mark as he is younger and is the more likely of the two to win championships for the team as he has proven over the last 4 seasons. But at the end of the day, they both get the same resources to work with, tha same factory etc, the difference comes down to their choice of engineers, personal managers, car setups and just how good/bad they are as drivers.

With regards to Alonso vs Hamilton. I don't think it had anything to do with a fallout with the team. I think Alonso was shocked at how quick Lewis was and that resulted in his battling and then the fallout with the team as he felt as a 2 X WDC he should have some sort of favour in the team. I think Lewis deserves a lot of credit for catching Alonso off guard with his pace and pushing the 2 X WDC to the limit in 2007. I'm sure Alonso had no inkling that young Lewis would be a match for him, let alone be able to beat him :)

[henners88]

I can't disagree with you 555 on your points about Red Bull and the events if 2007. Seb has dominated not just on track in comparison to Mark, but also by winning over the favouritism within the team. It's what World Champions do best. He's winning because he's put himself in a position to be the teams favourite and the likes of Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc have all fine this in the past to their advantage. I do like Webber though, but he's past his best and has been for a number if years now. He can retire from F1 happy with his achievements though as many retire having never win a race. :)

[555-04Q2]

Too true :)

[kfzmeister]

If you disagree with that, please suggest something I've missed :)

It was a pretty insignificant point concerning the thread really.

You're right. You're point is right on. I re-read and it makes perfect sense. My fault.

[Parabolica]

Having equal equipment does not equate to equal rights.

We were racing Alonso says everything that is needed to know about 07.

It would be interesting to see what Hamilton would do in a similar situation. Oh wait, we already know. His perception of McLaren not being behind him led to Spa 2012 and Twittergate.

That was as bad as anything Alonso did in 07.

Now, the difference between Vettel and these two is clear. Sebastian has his team fully behind him, and has now.for five years. That sort of position is not gained by luck or default. That sort of position is only maintained by success and the ability to deliver it.

In that respect, it is Vettel, and not the car that is special.

If Vettel had not delivered, no way would he have the power he has.

That's what makes him special, and that is what currently makes him better than both Lewis and Fernando.
.
And believe me, as a Ferrari fan I did not enjoy typing that.

[anfield5]

You are quite right. It was the same with Schumacher at Ferrari. He was the driver who was going to win the majority of the teams races and titles, so the car was tailored to him. Red Bull have done a very smart thing with their design, they have optimised it to suit their best chance for success, and that is Vettel.

[henners88]

You are quite right. It was the same with Schumacher at Ferrari. He was the driver who was going to win the majority of the teams races and titles, so the car was tailored to him. Red Bull have done a very smart thing with their design, they have optimised it to suit their best chance for success, and that is Vettel.
Exactly. We can't really blame Vettel for putting himself in that position and as I said, the likes of Schumacher did it previously. You can see why Mark would have got frustrated early on, however age is not on his side and Vettel has been outperforming him for years now. Teams will always back the driver they feel will bring the most success even if from a PR point of view it is not admitted. :)

[Parabolica]

You are quite right. It was the same with Schumacher at Ferrari. He was the driver who was going to win the majority of the teams races and titles, so the car was tailored to him. Red Bull have done a very smart thing with their design, they have optimised it to suit their best chance for success, and that is Vettel.

The notion that Vettel has to go somewhere else, or have an equal team-mate to challenge him is just an envy-fuelled dreamers notion.

He has already secured himself as the Emperor, so he should do everything he can to keep that position. He has nothing to prove, it is titles they are competing for, not some ideal utopian Corinthian respect.

Again, at the moment, Vettel has not lost his position of power. It can be claimed that Fernando has, twice, first at mclaren and possibly now at Ferrari (time will tell, it could be that by defeating Kimi he reinforces his position), while Hamilton couldn't make his 08 and 09 team domination into a long term position (his personality, like Alonso perhaps, and Liegate were arguably his undoing at McLaren).

That, and the small matter of 4 successive titles, means that, to use Compton Street-Slang (so Lewis digs it), Vettel - He Da Man.
9

[anfield5]

You are quite right. It was the same with Schumacher at Ferrari. He was the driver who was going to win the majority of the teams races and titles, so the car was tailored to him. Red Bull have done a very smart thing with their design, they have optimised it to suit their best chance for success, and that is Vettel.

The notion that Vettel has to go somewhere else, or have an equal team-mate to challenge him is just an envy-fuelled dreamers notion.

He has already secured himself as the Emperor, so he should do everything he can to keep that position. He has nothing to prove, it is titles they are competing for, not some ideal utopian Corinthian respect.

Again, at the moment, Vettel has not lost his position of power. It can be claimed that Fernando has, twice, first at mclaren and possibly now at Ferrari (time will tell, it could be that by defeating Kimi he reinforces his position), while Hamilton couldn't make his 08 and 09 team domination into a long term position (his personality, like Alonso perhaps, and Liegate were arguably his undoing at McLaren).

That, and the small matter of 4 successive titles, means that, to use Compton Street-Slang (so Lewis digs it), Vettel - He Da Man.
9

The problem for Fred is simple, Ferrari have continually given him a pile of crap to drive, the team don't want to own up to it being their fault, so the finger gets pointed at the driver (even though without him they would have won nothing at all for the past 4 years), and when he becomes that frustrated with life he makes a comment about it, and tells the world what he wants for his birthday is someone else's car, Ferrari further blame him. If Fred was winning, as Vettel is, Ferrari would be happy, Fred would be happy and he would be 'King of the World".

[555-04Q2]

You are quite right. It was the same with Schumacher at Ferrari. He was the driver who was going to win the majority of the teams races and titles, so the car was tailored to him. Red Bull have done a very smart thing with their design, they have optimised it to suit their best chance for success, and that is Vettel.

The notion that Vettel has to go somewhere else, or have an equal team-mate to challenge him is just an envy-fuelled dreamers notion.

He has already secured himself as the Emperor, so he should do everything he can to keep that position. He has nothing to prove, it is titles they are competing for, not some ideal utopian Corinthian respect.

Again, at the moment, Vettel has not lost his position of power. It can be claimed that Fernando has, twice, first at mclaren and possibly now at Ferrari (time will tell, it could be that by defeating Kimi he reinforces his position), while Hamilton couldn't make his 08 and 09 team domination into a long term position (his personality, like Alonso perhaps, and Liegate were arguably his undoing at McLaren).

That, and the small matter of 4 successive titles, means that, to use Compton Street-Slang (so Lewis digs it), Vettel - He Da Man.
9

The problem for Fred is simple, Ferrari have continually given him a pile of crap to drive, the team don't want to own up to it being their fault, so the finger gets pointed at the driver (even though without him they would have won nothing at all for the past 4 years), and when he becomes that frustrated with life he makes a comment about it, and tells the world what he wants for his birthday is someone else's car, Ferrari further blame him. If Fred was winning, as Vettel is, Ferrari would be happy, Fred would be happy and he would be 'King of the World".

Exactly! Ferrari are a great team, BUT, they are Italian and if there is one thing I have learnt over the years from dealing with my Italian suppliers, they are never wrong it is always someone else's fault! Maybe pino can shed some light on this :p:

But seriously, Ferrari thought they would be challenging for championships and besides one year, they haven't really have they? Alonso just stated what he feels and because it is true, I think it hit management hard and they were overreacting, as usual!