You're boss of Ferrari [Archive]

jjanicke

11th April 2007, 02:40

Massa's a good #2, and Ferrari have already paid for their #1.

Nick is not leaving BMW, Fisi is not being picked up by anyone (unless he pays), and Rubens has already been there and done that. So that would leave Webber & Nico.

Webber has been handedly outclassing his teammate during the 1st 2 events this year, and is likely to continue doing so. Redbull being an Adrian design, and with the new rules seeming to "equalize" the field somewhat (and it will only become more so in 2008 and beyond) a good argument could be made to stay with RB.

Nico could be a good choice, but there are certainly other drivers out there with equal ability.

Hawkmoon

11th April 2007, 04:18

Well, assuming that Massa had to be replaced and that Alonso, Hamilton, Kovalainen and Button are all off the market, it would be a tough call on who would replace the Brazilian.

Fisichella - too old, slow and inconsistent. Probably wouldn't handle the whole Italian driving a Ferrari thing very well.
Heidfeld - solid, but unspectactular. I don't think he is fast enough to back up Kimi and score enough points for the WCC.
Webber - great qualifier but a flakey racer. Apparently works hard so might be a good counterpoint to Kimi's more relaxed attitude.
Rosberg - getting better and looks to have a bright future. Would make a good long-term prospect.
Barrichello - been there, done that. Move along, nothing to see here.
Other - I can't see anybody else who would be an improvement over Massa. Davidson looks to be an asset in the development stakes but is unproven in F1 racing. If he has a good 2007 he might be worth a look. Forget the rest.

So I guess I'd try and pry Rosberg out of Sir Frank's hands or nab Davidson if he has a good 2007 and leaves Sato in the dust. Failing that, I'd stick Webber in the car for a year and probably concentrate on Kimi for the WDC.

PSfan

11th April 2007, 04:41

Haven't you heard? Ferrari has developed andriods based on both MS image and skills, next year they will give both Kimi and Massa the boot and run 2 Michael Schumachers...

I guess as the new manager at ferrari, I'll have to decide which one is the #1 driver, and who plays #2... :p :

Ranger

11th April 2007, 06:33

On the false assumption that Mr Todt likes to juggle, he'll probably have to wait for a Prost-esque falling out with one of the McLaren drivers to get a replacement for Felipe that would reward the risk of the team's stability, which would be at stake if Ferrari inexplicably dumps Felipe.

Mifune

11th April 2007, 06:43

Fisichella - too old, slow and inconsistent. Probably wouldn't handle the whole Italian driving a Ferrari thing very well.

sadly i find Fisichella all TOO consistant.

i would have to go with rosberg (if thats not too scandocentric)

Dzeidzei

11th April 2007, 07:48

i would have to go with rosberg (if thats not too scandocentric)

What the hell is scandocentric? Having 2 Finns at Ferrari would make it Fintastic. And yeahyeah, Nico has a German passport also, but he is Keke´s son.

Anyway, a bit premature this whole thread. Do not shoot Massa yet. Even if he cannot beat Kimi doesnt mean he´s no good. I dont think there are ANY drivers on the grid who could beat KR.

wmcot

11th April 2007, 07:59

ioan

11th April 2007, 09:00

The only one that could do better than Felipe and is available is MS, but it would be hard to persuade him to come back! :D

Honestly I would keep Felipe, he'll recover.

jens

11th April 2007, 10:09

Wow, again you are following the same ideology that "driver is as good as his last race." You're dumping Massa and are thinking about hiring Rosberg, who has just had two good races (btw, he was good at the start of last year as well, but in his case let's wait for the European season, where he started struggling last year).

I wouldn't even think about replacing Felipe unless he continues making such errors in almost every race.

CarlMetro

11th April 2007, 10:16

Of course you have already decided to give Massa the elbow end of this year

No I haven't. One mistake in one race doesn't make me want to get rid of him. And considering that he was pushing, and beating, one of Ferrari's all time greatest drivers, Michael Schumacher, for pole position last season I certainly know he has what it takes to be quick when I give him the car he needs. I know he can win races too, as he displayed in Brazil last year, and is a consistant points scorer for the team. Why would I want to get rid of him and replace him with an unkonwn quantity?

samuratt

11th April 2007, 10:33

I would keep Felipe and hire Alonso from McLaren. There you have a winning pair of drivers for the 2008 crown.
:D

Donney

11th April 2007, 10:48

I'm with Carl here, I see no need to get rid of him, even if I think Raikkonen will do better.

jas123f1

11th April 2007, 10:49

If you are going to replace FM, then you will need a good car development driver since he has been doing much more development than Kimi. Kimi is fast and can be WDC, but I don't think he can develop a WDC winning car.

Ferrari has two very good drivers so why start talking about kicking any?

But because the situation today is like it is (Alonso 18, Kimi 16, Hamilton 14 and Massa 7 - that makes McLaren 32, Ferrari 23 after two GPs!!)

To get the best chance to win the champion titles to Ferrari it’s to give Kimi a first driver status for the year and start to work from that point and do it now. It’s better to give him all support you can give and let him fight against Alonso (and Hamilton) and do it now or it will maybe be too late to do it “then”.. that’s however my opinion ..

It surprise me a bit, that you really think Ferrari paid 36 milj euros for a guy who can’t develop his car?

I can tell you that each “that fast” driver always can do it, because you never can be fast if you can’t give the necessary feed back to your engineers.

The question is in first hand if a driver is able to give engineers a feed back, which makes his car to fit his driving and in other hand develop the car. All new parts you need to make a car better is a result of engineering and the driver can only tell what he needs and give a reliable feedback when the team is testing new parts. According to Ferraris engineers Kimi is a very intelligent guy and give them exact information. The fact that Felipe has been faster in tests is not showing how good feed back information a driver is giving. I’m sure, that both Ferrari drivers are good in their testing work and that it's not any problem.

Both drivers are also very fast but there is one big difference between them.
Massa is fast and when everything goes in his way he can win a race, but when something unusual happens he is not “cool enough” in his decisions. Kimi is opposite, a cool guy like that “ice man” from the north he is. He makes his race decisions from his nature, cold and calculating, always cool and the best possible race result in his mind, his overtakings are always calculated, when Massa sometimes can start an overtaking based only on his feelings. That’s something he must learn if he would like to be a champion some day.. but imo it’s too late for the season, maybe 2008? :)

Dzeidzei

11th April 2007, 11:04

It surprise me a bit, that you really think Ferrari paid 36 milj euros for a guy who can’t develop his car?

I can tell you that each “that fast” driver always can do it, because you never can be fast if you can’t give the necessary feed back to your engineers.

The question is in first hand if a driver is able to give engineers a feed back, which makes his car to fit his driving and in other hand develop the car.

I think the best contribution a driver can give developing a car is to give exact feedback on how the car behaves and how changes effect that behaviour. I know people here seem to think that FA is somehow superior on developing the car, but I doubt VERY MUCH if he gives the engineers any advice on how to specifically set the car or what sort of parts to develop.

The drivers are not engineers. So the general idea that FA is behind the new McL is plain stupid. He is fast and he probably can give great feedback about his car, but thats it.

In one pre season interview FA said after testing last years McL that "now he understands why Kimi didnt win any races in 2006". And I still think the new McL was designed by engineers, not FA.

jas123f1

11th April 2007, 11:20

The drivers are not engineers. So the general idea that FA is behind the new McL is plain stupid. He is fast and he probably can give great feedback about his car, but thats it.

In one pre season interview FA said after testing last years McL that "now he understands why Kimi didnt win any races in 2006". And I still think the new McL was designed by engineers, not FA.

That's my opinion too. FA has not so much to do how his car is designed but as any good driver he is giving reliable feed back to his engineers of the situation at the moment and helping on that way to develop the car in right direction to fit in his driving style. :) . What makes FA to a champion is in first hand his intelligent driving and acting on the track.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 12:33

I think Massa is the best available option.

He's actually shown he's quicker than Kimi so far, so when you consider the fact Kimi is meant to be even quicker than Alonso, and that Kimi is earning 6 times more than Massa, Massa is doing a sound job. Once he gets himself together like he eventually did at the end of last season, it wouldn't surprise me to see him BEATING kimi. Though by then Kimi may have moved up another level as he settles into the team.

Garry Walker

11th April 2007, 14:18

I would go for 2007 WDC: Fernando Alonso.

oh so he has won it already? I will remember this quote.

race aficionado

11th April 2007, 14:33

I think the best contribution a driver can give developing a car is to give exact feedback on how the car behaves and how changes effect that behaviour. I know people here seem to think that FA is somehow superior on developing the car, but I doubt VERY MUCH if he gives the engineers any advice on how to specifically set the car or what sort of parts to develop.

The drivers are not engineers. So the general idea that FA is behind the new McL is plain stupid. He is fast and he probably can give great feedback about his car, but thats it.

In one pre season interview FA said after testing last years McL that "now he understands why Kimi didnt win any races in 2006". And I still think the new McL was designed by engineers, not FA.

You are confirming what many of us believe in.
Of course that FA is not an engineer but his contributions on setup make a whole lot of positive difference on how the car performes. Just as you have said. What is evident is that not all drivers have the same skill on set up as is the case with FA.

:s mokin:

Viktory

11th April 2007, 21:48

Well, since Todt has already confirmed that he will keep both Kimi and Massa for next season there's not much to debate here :p

I would have to say Massa is the best choice right now.

Bolton Midnight

11th April 2007, 22:26

As soons as someone denies Massa is leaving, then you KNOW he's history.

From what I've been told Kimi is not the sharpest tool in the box and nothing like a Prost or Schumacher. But of course he's super quick, possibly quicker than the likes of Schumacher in terms of raw speed.

But if you cast your mind back, Ronnie Peterson was probably a quicker driver than Andretti but Andretti took the title.

I think Nick Heidfeld would make an ideal replacement, as there must be an awful lot of new Tifosi in Germany.

Hawkmoon

11th April 2007, 23:06

I think the thread was meant to pose a hypothetical question rather than a literal one. That's how I approached it anyway.

The only clear upgrade over Massa on the grid today is Alonso. Whilst I would love to see Ferrari pinch Alonso, simply for the damage it would do to ol' Ron's psyche, it's not going to happen.

Felipe is safe and so he should be too. One race does not a career make.

wedge

11th April 2007, 23:12

But if you cast your mind back, Ronnie Peterson was probably a quicker driver than Andretti but Andretti took the title.

Oh yes! There are some parallels Kimi and the Super-Swede Ronnie Peterson.

Both have unbelievable raw speed, with no distinct driving style they can be unbelievably quick regardless how good or bad the car was.

Ronnie was hopless at testing. Ken Tyrell, Harvey Poslethwaitle and Colin Chapman all complained how hopeless he was at testing. The team would add mods and change set ups and Ronnie was just as quick! That's how stupidly quick the guy was.

The 2005 McLaren was very 'twitchy' to begin with and surprisingly, McLaren had to rely on JPM's feedback most. Last year's car had various problems. Pedro did the most development work last year and yet Kimi was clearly the better driver!

I remember Martin Brundle mentioned in an article that Kimi should find a particular driving style and be consistent with it. If you were to argue that if there ever was a flaw in Kimi then its consistancy. At a given stint Kimi's lap times are quite erratic compared to Button or Alonso. If there was ever a time to be consistent then testing would be the priority.

Cozzie

11th April 2007, 23:37

I'd boot them both (Massa and Kimi) and hire Hamilton and Alonso, contracts don't matter in F1!

Ranger

12th April 2007, 02:25

But if you cast your mind back, Ronnie Peterson was probably a quicker driver than Andretti but Andretti took the title.

But that was also because team orders was written in the contract.

Valve Bounce

12th April 2007, 02:26

Well, he could offer to swap Massa for Hamilton :D but I don't think Denis will fall for that one. He could try bunsen, but I doubt Honda wil let him go. Frank might cough up one of his drivers for a lot of dosh, but I can't even remember who is driving for Frank. BMW is unlikely to accept the rash racer in their team as they already have Kubica, and I honestly think that Massa is overated as a racer. Maybe Red Bull might cough up Webber or DC for a few more Ferrari horses, who knows. This is an interesting concept for Ferrari, but the way I see it, Ferrari needs a good #2 and not an aspiring #1 to take points off Kimi. That's my two bob's worth.

As I said on the other Fassa Massa thread, Massa is a fast driver but at present he is a rash racer.

jas123f1

12th April 2007, 06:53

From what I've been told Kimi is not the sharpest tool in the box and nothing like a Prost or Schumacher. But of course he's super quick, possibly quicker than the likes of Schumacher in terms of raw speed.

It would be interesting to hear - who told you? :)

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2007, 08:31

But that was also because team orders was written in the contract.
To expand on that a little...Ronnie Peterson's options were very limited at the end of the 1977 season. He'd had a poor year with Tyrrell, and while he was recognised as one of the fastest out there he was not an automatic choice for one of the top teams. Ronnie was happy to sign for Lotus as Andretti's #2, something Andretti was not comfortable with as he knew RP deserved better. At no point did Peterson ever question or challenge his status within the team. He'd signed the contract with his eyes wide open, having brought sponsorship, hoping that it might lead to a better situation. It did. Before his accident he'd signed to lead the McLaren team in 1979.

CarlMetro

12th April 2007, 10:38

I'd boot them both (Massa and Kimi)

Why?

555-04Q2

12th April 2007, 12:32

Of course you have already decided to give Massa the elbow end of this year, who would you go for?

Fisi
Nick
Webber
Nico
Rubens

or A N Other

??

Donald Duck or Tarzan

Juppe

12th April 2007, 12:45

...
I remember Martin Brundle mentioned in an article that Kimi should find a particular driving style and be consistent with it. If you were to argue that if there ever was a flaw in Kimi then its consistancy. At a given stint Kimi's lap times are quite erratic compared to Button or Alonso. If there was ever a time to be consistent then testing would be the priority.

That was an interesting view - I always thought that guys from McLaren said that if you want to have somebody driving 20 laps on the limit lap after lap, then Kimi is your guy.

It seems to be a contradictionary view to the above mentioned, so it would be interesting to see if you have a link or something...

555-04Q2

12th April 2007, 12:48

That was an interesting view - I always thought that guys from McLaren said that if you want to have somebody driving 20 laps on the limit lap after lap, then Kimi is your guy

Kimi has quick laps mixed with average laps. You never see him do faster laps one after the other ala Alonso, Schumacher, Senna, Prost etc. He is quick, but consistancy is an issue.

Dzeidzei

12th April 2007, 13:26

Kimi has quick laps mixed with average laps. You never see him do faster laps one after the other.

I thought he was catching Lewis in Malaysia pretty consistently driving as fast he could with those reduced revs. For example, he took 2 tenths on the 1st part for quite a few laps.

I know youre a Massa fan, but Im happy to admit he drives consistently fast laps (until he gets off track), but do you have some stats to back your point on Kimi? Would be interested to see those, as Ive been having quite the opposite view.

In Mel he was years faster than anyone until the team asked him to back off, so that cannot really be counted as inconsistency, right? Or is that nursing the engine if youre Schumi or Alonso and inconcistency if youre Kimi? Are you being consistent?

wedge

12th April 2007, 13:37

That was an interesting view - I always thought that guys from McLaren said that if you want to have somebody driving 20 laps on the limit lap after lap, then Kimi is your guy.

When you're testing you don't necessarily have to drive on the limit. Senna would drive a 80% of his ability in testing. His feedback was so precise. He would say that going in one corner he could make up a 0.3s, in another corner he could make up 0.2s. During a race weekend the engineers were so impressed because Senna's calculations were almost perfect.

I wouldn't be surprised Kimi does something similar. I'm sure he's aware of his own ability.

Kimi has quick laps mixed with average laps. You never see him do faster laps one after the other ala Alonso, Schumacher, Senna, Prost etc. He is quick, but consistancy is an issue.

As long as you're quick and win the race, consistency isn't a major issue when racing.

555-04Q2

12th April 2007, 13:51

I know youre a Massa fan, but Im happy to admit he drives consistently fast laps (until he gets off track), but do you have some stats to back your point on Kimi? Would be interested to see those, as Ive been having quite the opposite view.

In Mel he was years faster than anyone until the team asked him to back off, so that cannot really be counted as inconsistency, right? Or is that nursing the engine if youre Schumi or Alonso and inconcistency if youre Kimi? Are you being consistent?

Let's correct you here. First, I'm a Ferrari fan and a Massa supporter due to him driving for Ferrari. The same goes for Kimi who now drives for my beloved Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite driver by a long shot.

7 years of watching Kimi driving has proven my opinion on his consistancy, go back in history and prove me wrong if you like with past telemetry. The last two races Kimi has been brilliantly consistant, but two races does not a consistant driver make. Watch Alonso, then watch Kimi. The difference is very apparent. IMHO, Kimi is faster over 1 lap than Alonso if they had the same machinery, but Alonso is more likely to win the race over 70 laps.

Schumi and Alonso have shown their consistancy with their wins and WDC, Kimi will hopefully start doing the same and justify his reputation which is huge for a man who has yet to win a WDC. I will pay Kimi his dues when he wins a WDC, until then, like Jenson Button, he's all hype to me.

555-04Q2

12th April 2007, 13:57

As long as you're quick and win the race, consistency isn't a major issue when racing.

Speed can win a race, yes, but consistancy wins WDC's. Thats the difference between a good driver and a great one.

wedge

12th April 2007, 16:09

Speed can win a race, yes, but consistancy wins WDC's. Thats the difference between a good driver and a great one.

No, not really.

Usually, the drivers who do consistant lap times have a smooth driving style, tactical awareness and/or conservative race tactics. Good examples being Button, Prost, Piquet and Alonso.

Kimi's driving style and natural instinct is to drive on the limit.

Senna and Schumi also preferred to push hard, drive with maximum attack but they still won numerous WDCs.

When you drive on the limit, you will make mistakes.

The difference between Kimi and someone like Schumi was that Schumi knew when to push and his ability to do string together qualy style lap times during a race stint. Schumi was near perfection and even he would make a few mistakes along the way.

aryan

12th April 2007, 16:23

How about someone who has beaten Massa fair and square as his team mate, knows how to play second fiddle to a world champion, is a decent guy, good car developer and team player?

Yes of course, I am talking of Fisico.

OmarF1

12th April 2007, 17:48

I would go for Bourdais for 2008, now that TC is gone, he would be really fresh from non TC driving, plus he's french he must get along with Jean Toad

jjanicke

12th April 2007, 17:52

Kimi has quick laps mixed with average laps. You never see him do faster laps one after the other ala Alonso, Schumacher, Senna, Prost etc. He is quick, but consistancy is an issue.

Not true at all. I have alot of lap time data from 2006 and 2005 to prove it.

Dzeidzei

12th April 2007, 18:42

Let's correct you here. First, I'm a Ferrari fan and a Massa supporter due to him driving for Ferrari. The same goes for Kimi who now drives for my beloved Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite driver by a long shot.

Well, you could have fooled me. Its pretty damn hard to find support for Kimi in your posts. But come on, just show me one post, that should be easy.

7 years of watching Kimi driving has proven my opinion on his consistancy, go back in history and prove me wrong if you like with past telemetry. The last two races Kimi has been brilliantly consistant, but two races does not a consistant driver make.

This is not how it goes, buddy. If you state something that you claim is based on facts, then you must hit the facts on the table. I dont have access to past telemetry (which you probably have access to) but with all due respect, its your job to prove your point.

You can always say that the claim is just what you think. You are entitled to your thoughts.

And FYI, Ive watched Kimi´s career since karting. I know why you compare him to Jenson, your reasons are obvious. I could do the same and be comparing Massa to Irvine or Barrichello, they all are very nice lapdogs and a proven record in that. But I dont, I dont have any need to piss you off. I think Massa should be given a fair chance, but he better start producing something pretty damn fast. Like in Bahrain next Sunday. Note: not on Friday or Saturday, on Sunday.