There were no death camps in Germany during WW11

[Spafranco]

Currently, I am reading a book on the Holocaust and surprised to read that there were no actual death camps in Germany during WWII. Of course people died in concentration camps
but not as a defined method of killing They died from Malnutrition and other such diseases' such as Cholera, Diphtheria,Typhus and of course exhaustion.
Typical of the Nazi's that they would murder people in other parts of Europe and not Germany.

Of course , this has led to a great deal of Holocaust denial, even to the extent of putting the Einsatzgruppen onto a pedestal that should be known only for murderers as they were the group that came behind the main onslaught and eradicated the remaining survivors. The deadly babies and old people.

[D-Type]

The Nazis did everything legally. it wasn't legal under German law to have a death camp so the death camps were not on German soil, e.g. Auschwitz was in Poland.

Does this remind you of Guantánamo Bay?

[Starter]

The Nazis did everything legally. it wasn't legal under German law to have a death camp so the death camps were not on German soil, e.g. Auschwitz was in Poland.

Does this remind you of Guantánamo Bay?
Except for the death part the parallels are interesting.

[Spafranco]

Except for the death part the parallels are interesting.

Death part?! Hmm, I bet they all had a jolly good time down there in Guantanamo. Those that were innocent I m referring to. Sure they caught some of the bad asses but I can tell you more innocents were picked up like a vacuum cleaner than those that were guilty.

The "great" reporters at Fox, Hannity WATER BOARDING IS NOT TORTURE and O'Reilly, I WAS IN COMBAT, each failed desperately in their respective claims. Almost like "Lord Haha", please correct me if I am mentioning the wrong person form WWII propaganda.
D-Type, I believe you have made a very find comparison.
How many died there off the coast of Cuba.

[anthonyvop]

Death part?! Hmm, I bet they all had a jolly good time down there in Guantanamo. Those that were innocent I m referring to. Sure they caught some of the bad asses but I can tell you more innocents were picked up like a vacuum cleaner than those that were guilty.

The "great" reporters at Fox, Hannity WATER BOARDING IS NOT TORTURE and O'Reilly, I WAS IN COMBAT, each failed desperately in their respective claims. Almost like "Lord Haha", please correct me if I am mentioning the wrong person form WWII propaganda.
D-Type, I believe you have made a very find comparison.
How many died there off the coast of Cuba.

Water Boarding isn't torture

Guantanamo Bay IS considered US Territory but being a military installation is policed under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Do your homework

[gadjo_dilo]

The Nazis did everything legally. it wasn't legal under German law to have a death camp so the death camps were not on German soil, e.g. Auschwitz was in Poland.

Does this remind you of Guantánamo Bay?

Guantanamo Bay IS considered US territory....

Never been good or interested in modern history that's why I'm a bit confused: Was Poland a sovereign state during WW II? Wasn't Poland occupied and annexed to Germany?

[555-04Q2]

The United States assumed territorial control over the southern portion of Guantánamo Bay under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty. The United States has complete jurisdiction and control over this territory, while Cuba retains ultimate sovereignty. The current government of Cuba regards the U.S. presence in Guantánamo Bay as illegal and insists the Cuban-American Treaty was obtained by threat of force in violation of international law. Some legal scholars judge that the lease may be voidable. It is the home of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, which is governed by the United States.

[Lousada]

The Nazis did everything legally. it wasn't legal under German law to have a death camp so the death camps were not on German soil, e.g. Auschwitz was in Poland.

Does this remind you of Guantánamo Bay?

Actually Auschwitz and many other camps were definately on German soil as the Nazis annexed and incorporated large pieces of occupied territory. They were not within the pre-38 Germany no, but they were technically, politically, administratively part of Germany. So by every definition possible it was on German soil.

[Lousada]

Never been good or interested in modern history that's why I'm a bit confused: Was Poland a sovereign state during WW II? Wasn't Poland occupied and annexed to Germany?

No Poland was first of all split between Germany and the Soviet Union (and a little bit for Slovakia) in 1939. Then German-occupied Poland was split into a part fully annexed to Germany and a part under the "General Government". The General Goverment was also directly under control of Hitler and the Nazis, but not part of Germany and also not an independent country. I suppose you could best compare it with an African colony where the territory and the people on it are only exploited for the good of the home nation.

[Lousada]

Currently, I am reading a book on the Holocaust and surprised to read that there were no actual death camps in Germany during WWII. Of course people died in concentration camps
but not as a defined method of killing They died from Malnutrition and other such diseases' such as Cholera, Diphtheria,Typhus and of course exhaustion.
Typical of the Nazi's that they would murder people in other parts of Europe and not Germany.

Of course , this has led to a great deal of Holocaust denial, even to the extent of putting the Einsatzgruppen onto a pedestal that should be known only for murderers as they were the group that came behind the main onslaught and eradicated the remaining survivors. The deadly babies and old people.

This is factually untrue as I already stated in another post. I suppose the main reason for holocaust denial is that there weren't that many German Jews in the first place. In pre Nazi Germany there were about 250.000 on a population of 80 million. That's almost nothing. Many Germans probably didn't even knew a Jew in person. And of those 250.000 some two thirds survived the war. That is because they had 7 years of Hitler before the World War and already knew they had to emigrate as fast as possible. So even if a German knew about Jews he probably heard they emigrated. It is not hard to understand that that mindset finds it incomprehensible that the German peoples are responsible for the mass annihilation of 6 million people.

[Gregor-y]

No Poland was first of all split between Germany and the Soviet Union (and a little bit for Slovakia) in 1939.
That would be the portion Poland grabbed when Germany occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia in 1938. Such a weird couple of years, those were.

[anthonyvop]

Never been good or interested in modern history that's why I'm a bit confused: Was Poland a sovereign state during WW II? Wasn't Poland occupied and annexed to Germany?

The United States assumed territorial control over the southern portion of Guantánamo Bay under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty. The United States has complete jurisdiction and control over this territory, while Cuba retains ultimate sovereignty. The current government of Cuba regards the U.S. presence in Guantánamo Bay as illegal and insists the Cuban-American Treaty was obtained by threat of force in violation of international law. Some legal scholars judge that the lease may be voidable. It is the home of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, which is governed by the United States.

The US controls the land under Treaty. Your unnamed "Legal Scholars" aside the lease isn't voidable. If it was Cuba would have sued for it decades ago.

[BDunnell]

The US controls the land under Treaty. Your unnamed "Legal Scholars" aside the lease isn't voidable. If it was Cuba would have sued for it decades ago.

Just because someone doesn't take legal action with regard to something doesn't mean their case wouldn't be valid, you know.

[Spafranco]

Water Boarding isn't torture

Guantanamo Bay IS considered US Territory but being a military installation is policed under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Do your homework

So the man/woman that knows all about Europe and all items political states that waterboarding is not torture.Why if this act is not torture did the United States execute Japanese officers for waterboarding?

Must be that you think they are just washing their faces down there in Guantanamo, eh Tony?

Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Rehabilitation_Council_for_Torture_V ictims) and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_Against_Torture) has said:
It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering– one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state– in this case the US

You then tell me to do my homework when I mentioned Guantanamo. You state that it is a US military installation.

You are arguing with me on the fact that Guantanamo is part of the US. Did I say otherwise. If it is not torture, then why were they doing it?

Would you like it if the US troops were subjected to this?

[Spafranco]

This is factually untrue as I already stated in another post. I suppose the main reason for holocaust denial is that there weren't that many German Jews in the first place. In pre Nazi Germany there were about 250.000 on a population of 80 million. That's almost nothing. Many Germans probably didn't even knew a Jew in person. And of those 250.000 some two thirds survived the war. That is because they had 7 years of Hitler before the World War and already knew they had to emigrate as fast as possible. So even if a German knew about Jews he probably heard they emigrated. It is not hard to understand that that mindset finds it incomprehensible that the German peoples are responsible for the mass annihilation of 6 million people.

I can't understand what on earth you are speaking of other than the fact that you claim what I stated was untrue. It is true. There were no designated death camps in Germany. They were Concentration camps. I said that people died in these camps but they were not set up for the purpose of mass murder. That they did outside of Germany. You sir, are as is Anthony uninformed on the history.

[Spafranco]

Actually Auschwitz and many other camps were definately on German soil as the Nazis annexed and incorporated large pieces of occupied territory. They were not within the pre-38 Germany no, but they were technically, politically, administratively part of Germany. So by every definition possible it was on German soil.

You are playing semantics. The point is/was adjudged that on actual, real Germany, not conquered land that there were no death camps in Germany proper.

[Rollo]

Water Boarding isn't torture

Guantanamo Bay IS considered US Territory but being a military installation is policed under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Do your homework

OK, I will:

http://www.public-access-project.org/asano_case.pdf
and here:
Waterboarding Historically Controversial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html)
Specification 1:That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor for his crimes which included torture. Am I to assume that the U.S. Military Commission doesn't agree with... Uniform Code of Military Justice? Say what now?

[BDunnell]

OK, I will:

http://www.public-access-project.org/asano_case.pdf
and here:
Waterboarding Historically Controversial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html)
Specification 1:That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor for his crimes which included torture. Am I to assume that the U.S. Military Commission doesn't agree with... Uniform Code of Military Justice? Say what now?

The US – or, rather, the section of US public opinion represented here by anthonyvop — is fine with torture when it's the US doing it, but not when it's meted out against US citizens, because the US is always in the right. That seems a fair summation.

[555-04Q2]

The US controls the land under Treaty. Your unnamed "Legal Scholars" aside the lease isn't voidable. If it was Cuba would have sued for it decades ago.

Merely stating what the situation there is, not taking anyone's side here :)

[D-Type]

I think it's time to apologise for dragging this thread off topic with the sidelong reference to Guantanamo Bay. The fact that the 'death camps' were not in Germany proper is an interesting enough topic in its own right.

[Parabolica]

I think it was beneficial for the National Socialist to keep it at a distance. That they used euphemisms like "Final Solution" has always suggested that they feared the German people's reaction had they been exposed to an undeniable truth. Having an Autschwitx or Treblinka on German soil would have been impossible to hide. With the Death Camps being on occupied territory, way away from German public opinion and German public morale, was a simple and horrifically practical means to an end.

[555-04Q2]

I think it's time to apologise for dragging this thread off topic with the sidelong reference to Guantanamo Bay. The fact that the 'death camps' were not in Germany proper is an interesting enough topic in its own right.

Apologies :cheese:

[D-Type]

Apologies :cheese:
I thought I was apologising, but if you want to plead guilty as well - feel free.

[Granatelli]

The US – or, rather, the section of US public opinion represented here by anthonyvop — is fine with torture when it's the US doing it, but not when it's meted out against US citizens, because the US is always in the right. That seems a fair summation.
You are jelouse

[555-04Q2]

You are jelouse

Youre carent spalle

[yodasarmpit]

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/34971383.jpg

[Garry Walker]

You are playing semantics. The point is/was adjudged that on actual, real Germany, not conquered land that there were no death camps in Germany proper. Well, if we go by the facts then Auschwitz and Chelmo were on what was considered German territory. These areas had also been owned by Germany before WW1. The other death camps were on an another administrative area - General Government. Whether they were on german soil or in Poland is largely irrelevant anyway. The crimes are no less horrendous and shocking.


I think it was beneficial for the National Socialist to keep it at a distance. That they used euphemisms like "Final Solution" has always suggested that they feared the German people's reaction had they been exposed to an undeniable truth. Having an Autschwitx or Treblinka on German soil would have been impossible to hide. With the Death Camps being on occupied territory, way away from German public opinion and German public morale, was a simple and horrifically practical means to an end.

Absolutely. The main reasons why death camps were in what is now Poland were logistical and trying to keep the average german unaware of what was happening.

[Spafranco]

Well, if we go by the facts then Auschwitz and Chelmo were on what was considered German territory. These areas had also been owned by Germany before WW1. The other death camps were on an another administrative area - General Government. Whether they were on german soil or in Poland is largely irrelevant anyway. The crimes are no less horrendous and shocking.



Absolutely. The main reasons why death camps were in what is now Poland were logistical and trying to keep the average german unaware of what was happening.

If you had taken more time to read any of the posts on this thread you would not see anyone that posted excusing the horrific dealings of the Germans.
We are talking about death camps in the late thirties and during the war. This revisionism by you does not matter a hoot as Texas was once Mexico and Derry was once in the Republic of Ireland.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually Auschwitz and many other camps were definately on German soil as the Nazis annexed and incorporated large pieces of occupied territory. They were not within the pre-38 Germany no, but they were technically, politically, administratively part of Germany. So by every definition possible it was on German soil.

You are playing semantics. The point is/was adjudged that on actual, real Germany, not conquered land that there were no death camps in Germany proper.
Bergen-Belson was on German soil, pre war....

[donKey jote]

Bergen-Belsen is ~10 miles from my workplace...

it was originally a POW camp, not a death camp as in extermination camp with gas chambers etc...
but tell that to the 50000 or so who were left to die of starvation or inadequate medical attention :s

[Mark in Oshawa]

Donkey, I know they had Jews in there, and the Final solution was to get rid of the Jews. So it is likely semantics, but no one with any intellectual honesty could call it anything but a death camp.

[donKey jote]

Sure, but semantics or not, there were death camps and concentration camps. Bergen-Belsen was terrible, but nowhere near as bad as the extermination camps designed solely with genocide in mind.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe so Donkey, but it was still appalling, and I am sure you agree on that being a rather sensible Donkey..lol