BRM P57, correct namings

[pertti_jarla]

In the Wikipedia "WikiProject Formula One" I have been discussing proper designations for the Climax and P56 V8 powered BRM P57 cars. At the moment there is a Wiki page for the Climax car as "BRM P48/57" and "BRM P57" for the V8 car.
After reading some of Doug Nye's BRM Saga Vol.2 I suggested changing the titles to "BRM P57-Climax" or "BRM-Climax P57" and "BRM P57 V8". I edited the pages a bit, but was unable to change the page titles.
"P57" and "P578" would be more correct, but as P578 is so commonly known as P57 I'm afraid that would confuse information seekers. The WikiProject moderator thinks the best solution would be to merge the two pages to one "BRM P57" and I agree.
What are your ideas on the best or most correct names for these cars? There definitely is some confusion at the moment.

[D-Type]

Never 'BRM-Climax P57' as the 'P57' relates to the BRM part. Think of 'Lotus 24 - Climax 4' (yes there was one), Lotus 24 - Climax V8 and 'Lotus 24 - BRM' (or maybe Lotus 24 - BRM V8) to see how it could work.

The definitive history has been written by Doug Nye and I think you should follow his terminology.

It looks as if there should be separate entries for 'BRM P48', 'BRM P48 - Climax', 'BRM 57 - Climax', and 'BRM P57 V8'. This would need explanation of the fact that some individual chassis had different engines installed during their active life.


Incidentally, does the Wiki Project Formula 1 recognise the existence of non-championship Formula 1 races?

[Rollo]

P48 - 2.5L inline-4
P48/57 - 1.5L V8 (FPF)
P57 - 1.5L V8

The only definitive answer would be the actual chassis numbers but even then there's instances where the cars were fitted with either a BRM or Colotti gearbox. Maybe there's a distinct difference in chassis numbers but the official record books don't seem to confirm that there even is such a thing as a P578.

[D-Type]

P48 - 2.5L inline-4
P48/57 - 1.5L V8 (FPF)
P57 - 1.5L V8

The only definitive answer would be the actual chassis numbers but even then there's instances where the cars were fitted with either a BRM or Colotti gearbox. Maybe there's a distinct difference in chassis numbers but the official record books don't seem to confirm that there even is such a thing as a P578.
Shouldn't this be
P48 - 2.5L inline-4
P48/57 - 1.5L 4 (FPF)
P57 - 1.5L V8

David Hodges says the Climax-engined cars were re-engined with V8 BRM engines and sold to customers in 1962 (Lewis, Marsh). These would be the P48/57's.

Aren't we simply re-creating what Doug Nye has researched fully and published in his BRM tome?

[Ex-Jagboy]

P48 - 2.5L inline-4
P48/57 - 1.5L V8 (FPF)
P57 - 1.5L V8

The only definitive answer would be the actual chassis numbers but even then there's instances where the cars were fitted with either a BRM or Colotti gearbox. Maybe there's a distinct difference in chassis numbers but the official record books don't seem to confirm that there even is such a thing as a P578.

It frequently had us scratching our heads at the time, in 1961, the first year of the 1500cc formula the cars were listed in the programmes as P48/57-Climax, the following year both Hill and Ginther started the season with the new P57s,until Ginther put his new P57 into the straw bales at Club during the Daily Express meeting, and surfaced at the next meeting in a car listed as a P48/57-V8, I don`t recall ever hearing of a P578.

[pertti_jarla]

According to Nye and Rudd BRM P578 is the original factory designation for the "official" V8 cars, but I suppose it wasn't used in the racing press or programs of the time. I didn't know that P48/57 has been used for all variations in the programmes. I'm not too happy with that name: the Climax-powered cars were simply P57, with a new chassis based on P48 mark II. P48/57 says nothing about the powerplant.

Heaps of names seem to have been used since, like "BRM P57 BRM P56 V8"! In one book William Boddy seems to call the 1962 world champion car "P56" which is really the name of its engine.

To minimise confusion I would prefer factory designations + motor types in Wikipedia (like P57-Climax), and the moderator seems to prefer one page for different variations of the same type. For the individual 1961-62 types the following names would be best:
"P57-Climax"
"P57-V8" (For Lewis+Marsh cars)
"P578 V8"
But I know that most people never use "P578". I would mention them all, and the different name variations, under one page "P57", that would be easiest to information seekers.

[D-Type]

Please don't refer to me as 'the moderator' when I am simply posting to a discussion and not moderating it.

I'm still trying to get my head around these issues. The problem is that reality doesn't neatly comparmentalise to fit a database and whatever you adopt requires an explanatory note.

[pertti_jarla]

Sorry, I haven't participated that much in Wikipedia. I am not yet familiar with the correct titles for people involved in the Wiki project. You were so active, somehow i mistook you for some kind of a moderator.
"Re-creating what Doug Nye has researched fully and published in his BRM tome" sounds to me like the best way to go when editing the BRM Wikipedia pages.

[D-Type]

I was meaning that for my sins I am moderator of this discussion group. In my own mind I keep a barrier between my postings as a contributer and as moderator.

I have no connection with Wikipedia. I do get frustrated when Wikipedia contributers get things wrong, either deliberately or through lack of knowledge. But I don't think this thread is the right place to discuss these shortcomings.

[Don Capps]

Shouldn't this be
P48 - 2.5L inline-4
P48/57 - 1.5L 4 (FPF)
P57 - 1.5L V8

Why? I have never quite understood the reasons -- or this need -- to put the engine data in that format whenever listing cars. I have always thought it odd and unnecessary,an opinion which the passage of a great deal of time has not diminished. Maybe it is just me. Then, again, I have come to not care for the hyphen either, so, for me it would be BRM P57 Climax FPF for the 1961 cars and simply BRM P57 or BRM P578 for the cars using the P56 engine.


Aren't we simply re-creating what Doug Nye has researched fully and published in his BRM tome?

In that case, it is:

P57

P578

Or, perhaps...

Chassis / Engine

P57 / Climax FPF

P57 / P56

P578 / P56

Sorry, no sign of a "P48/57" anywhere...