Webber unlapping himself during SC period

[keysersoze]

I don't get it. When he was over a full lap down, why was Webber permitted to pass all the cars, then drive around the circuit and rejoin at the tail end of the lead lap?

[Koz]

I don't get it. When he was over a full lap down, why was Webber permitted to pass all the cars, then drive around the circuit and rejoin at the tail end of the lead lap?

To prevent traffic for the front runners. So all the cars are running in the correct order.
We used to have this rule a few years ago, too. It was most notable in wet races, where we could see how "fast" the track was.
Then at some point rules changed and this wasn't allowed anymore. And it was confusing before we had no idea who was racing whom. It was very chaotic and to and extent quite foolish.

We had a thread somewhere, where I am pretty sure I advocated bringing this rule back.
After what happened today, this has to be changed.

But we can't just say keep track position, can we?

[Robinho]

whilst his position on track was unchanged, lapped cars are allowed to rejoin the same lap. I think its purely a product of the lap calculations that they have to overtake and run the lap, rather than just dropping to the back and having the lap added to their chart, although I would suggest the latter would be preferable if they can work the IT side of things so they appear to have one more lap than actualy recorded. Why they should get the lap back in the 1st place I don't know. If you scrapped that the lapped cars could just drop to the back of the snake (in order) and save waiting for them to overtake and get back on the rear of the train, probably a couple of laps behind the SC could be saved

[Knock-on]

I don't see why they don't pick up behind the SC in the order they are on track. If the leader has lapped a car then why should 2nd place get the benefit of getting on the leaders gearbox because of a unrelated incident?

Leave the lapped cars where they are and just make sure they get out of the way in the restart.

Simples

[steveaki13]

I don't see why they don't pick up behind the SC in the order they are on track. If the leader has lapped a car then why should 2nd place get the benefit of getting on the leaders gearbox because of a unrelated incident?

Leave the lapped cars where they are and just make sure they get out of the way in the restart.

Simples

This

I would also add. Why do they need to gain a lap? What right have they to gain a whole lap? If cars a lap down need to get out of the pack then drop them to the tail of the snake but stay 1 lap down.

Example

SC - Positions 1-12 Lead Lap, Positions 13-16 +1 Lap, 17-19 +2 Laps.

Then cars stay where they should be on lap charts and the restart is not affected by traffic.

But ultimately I would just do what Knockie Said

[The Black Knight]

To prevent traffic for the front runners. So all the cars are running in the correct order.
We used to have this rule a few years ago, too. It was most notable in wet races, where we could see how "fast" the track was.
Then at some point rules changed and this wasn't allowed anymore. And it was confusing before we had no idea who was racing whom. It was very chaotic and to and extent quite foolish.

We had a thread somewhere, where I am pretty sure I advocated bringing this rule back.
After what happened today, this has to be changed.

But we can't just say keep track position, can we?

I hate this stupid rule. The safety car periods have gotten ludicrous. For removing a car from the track it now takes about 7-8 laps minimum for cars and the likes to unlap themselves. The way it was a few years ago was fine.

[AndyL]

I don't see why they don't pick up behind the SC in the order they are on track. If the leader has lapped a car then why should 2nd place get the benefit of getting on the leaders gearbox because of a unrelated incident?

Leave the lapped cars where they are and just make sure they get out of the way in the restart.

Simples

I agree completely. There is absolutely no need for special rules to deal with lapped cars. I never understood it when people complained about backmarkers being in between the leaders when the safety car goes in. It could only be because there were backmarkers between the leaders before the safety car came out. It's not the job of the safety car to change that. The guy behind the backmarkers will get the benefit of blue flags as soon as the racing resumes.

[schmenke]

Not to mention the purpose of the SC is to slow the field down. It defeats the purpose if a driver is expected to speed past a queue of cars to simply to reorder the field.

[Ranger]

The guy behind the backmarkers will get the benefit of blue flags as soon as the racing resumes.

The 2011 Singapore Grand Prix was the muse of the new Safety Car regulations.

Because of lapped traffic, after 1 lap of racing after the Safety Car, 2nd place was already 9 seconds down on the leader. He was 4 seconds down by the time he even reached the green flag.

Losing 5-10 seconds to the leader because of lapped traffic is not a situation I would like to see repeated.

That doesn't mean the current Safety Car rules are perfect either.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I agree completely. There is absolutely no need for special rules to deal with lapped cars. I never understood it when people complained about backmarkers being in between the leaders when the safety car goes in. It could only be because there were backmarkers between the leaders before the safety car came out. It's not the job of the safety car to change that. The guy behind the backmarkers will get the benefit of blue flags as soon as the racing resumes.

^^^
THIS

Had the safety car not come out, they would have had to deal with the back markers anyways, so why the manipulation of track positions?

[keysersoze]

It may not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but Webber was able to pass the 5-6 slowest cars rather easily when the race went back to green. He wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise, and all those drivers would have moved up a position.

But the driver who got truly screwed was di Resta, who finished 11th.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It may not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but Webber was able to pass the 5-6 slowest cars rather easily when the race went back to green. He wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise, and all those drivers would have moved up a position.

But the driver who got truly screwed was di Resta, who finished 11th.

Pretty much everyone, who finished behind Mark was royally screwed. He was in a position that he didn't get on merit, but as a freeby from Charlie Whiting.

[AndyL]

The 2011 Singapore Grand Prix was the muse of the new Safety Car regulations.

Because of lapped traffic, after 1 lap of racing after the Safety Car, 2nd place was already 9 seconds down on the leader. He was 4 seconds down by the time he even reached the green flag.

Having been, what, 20 seconds down before the safety car? From that point of view it was a net gain of 11 seconds, not a loss of 9. For a driver who's had a bit of luck with a safety car, it seems wrong to complain that they should have been even luckier.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Having been, what, 20 seconds down before the safety car? From that point of view it was a net gain of 11 seconds, not a loss of 9. For a driver who's had a bit of luck with a safety car, it seems wrong to complain that they should have been even luckier.

Don't you dare confuse people with facts ;) :D

[tjoepie]

Would it be too confusing to just allow all the out of position cars to be lapped?

[Warriwa]

I find it interesting that this topic is only really being discussed now. Even last week at Silverstone towards the end of the race this happened and actually removed the vital extra laps that Webber needed to win the race. All lapped cars should just drop to the back of the pack behind the safety car. Use the team radios to sort it out. Easy.

[Ranger]

Having been, what, 20 seconds down before the safety car?

He could have been a minutes, or just 3 seconds behind when the Safety Car came out. He would still have lost those 6-8 seconds behind lapped traffic.

That is the issue the FIA were trying to resolve.

If that helped decide the title at the final race of a championship you would definitely not have heard the end of it... but then again some would call that tough luck. :\

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why can't lapped cars be blue flagged under safety car conditions?

[Ranger]

Would it be too confusing to just allow all the out of position cars to be lapped?

I see several solutions with varying degrees of wisdom:

- Ditch the Safety Car and solve everything with flags and harsher penalties. - Seems a bit too extreme, although it used to work.
- Leave the lapped cars in position - We used to have this system.
- Let all lap cars regain a lap - We currently have this system.
- Move all lapped cars to the back of the queue - This is simple and could work. But do drivers deserve to be further punished for being 1 lap down? If a front-runner was were second on the road but a lap down due to an incident, they would then be moved 22 cars further down the road. Fair?
- Let 1 lapped car regain a lap - NASCAR has this system. The main problem now is that it takes 2-3 extra laps behind the safety car for lapped traffic to catch the SC again on the lead lap. As well as the fact they have to speed around the whole lap to catch it under yellow flag conditions. This system resolves neither.
- Do not count Safety Car laps with any of the above systems - Solves one problem, but completely ignores the fact that cars are only fueled for the given race distance. Unfaesible.

Comments?

[vhatever]

I see several solutions with varying degrees of wisdom:

Comments?

I don't know why they don't just have an enforced speed limit ala the pit lane limiter. Violate the speed limit? Take a drive through/stop-go penalty.

[Warriwa]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.

[Knock-on]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.

Correct. It's a popular idea but ill thought out that the cars could be regulated to a safe speed by introducing some type of limit or limiter. However, you will still have a track full of cars delaying recovery or potentially introducing additional risk. The SC is the best solution but releasing the lapped drivers is the issue.

Should a lapped driver with no realistic chance of points be artificially released and be able to move up the leader table because of a SC? Should a driver in the lead by 30 seconds and who may have been really pushing his tyres overtaking backmarkers to try and build up a sufficient lead then be penalised by seeing all the lapped drivers pass him and the 2nd place and be artificially installed on his gearbox? At least if there were lapped drivers behind him, it will give him a second or so buffer to try and get a break that he would have formally had.

Safety cars are necessary and by bunching the drivers up, slower cars are going to benefit and faster lose out but lets try to maintain the integrity of the race as much as possible to not further penalise the leaders.

[vhatever]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.


What I would do is have a relatively small oval track where they basically drive in circles. Pit lane limter speed, as I suggested before, still turned on. When the track is cleared, the leader is allowed to leave the oval, but all cars wanting to leave the oval must have completed the same amount of laps the leader has.

Size is actually irrelevant, but "small" for cost concerns. Doesn't even need to be an oval, could be nearly a "two lane" track with hairpin corners on either end. But F1 has a habit of only worrying about sharp sticks after someone's eye is already poked out.

[N. Jones]

Is this a bad rule because a fast car (Webber's) was 1) a lap down 2) was able to unlap itself, and 3) eventually score points? Or is it bad for some other reason?

[zako85]

The 2011 Singapore Grand Prix was the muse of the new Safety Car regulations.

Because of lapped traffic, after 1 lap of racing after the Safety Car, 2nd place was already 9 seconds down on the leader. He was 4 seconds down by the time he even reached the green flag.


I don't understand the discomfort here. If there was no safety car, then the 2nd place car would have to deal with lap car traffic anyways, wouldn't it?

[zako85]

The way I see it, no matter what rules are set to deal with safety cars, you still end in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

If the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves before the green flag, then you will have people complain about why this happened, as in this thread.

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

[AndyL]

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

A well-made point. It is the one really unfair thing about the "traditional" safety car rule. The guy who has only just been lapped loses a whole lap on the guy he was chasing but who hadn't quite been lapped yet.

Given that it's suffered by someone who's already been lapped and in all probability won't be scoring points, I'm not sure it justifies keeping the safety car out for an extra 3 laps for unlapping though.

As you say there is no perfect rule.

[keysersoze]

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

The first car behind the SC should be the leader of the race, not the car in 19th place.

[truefan72]

The way I see it, no matter what rules are set to deal with safety cars, you still end in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

If the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves before the green flag, then you will have people complain about why this happened, as in this thread.

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

excellent points

I too think the unlapping scenario is the best
My issue is with the time it takes to get it done

1. As soon as the SC picks up the leaders, then the lapped cars should have the go ahead to unlap themselves, so this can be done at the same time the marshals are doing what they need to do.
Of course, safely too.
2. There needs to be more than 1 safety car, perhaps 3, with one in each sector, ready to pick up the leader wherever he is, then the rest of the pack can then fall in tow. This will eliminate the extra half lap it takes , while the top cars "artificially" gain a pitstop and holding up proceedings even more. Thus penalizing anyone who actually had the temerity to pit during actual race conditions. This has long been a thorn on my side. One could be in p2 make a pitstop, ,fall back to p10, then the SC comes and at least the top 3-5 cars get a free stop, don't lose position and you end up farther down than you should be.
3. the whole process needs to be handled more efficient and quicker by teams, drivers and race control
for example, they give the call for cars to unlap themselves, and then for some reason it takes another half lap before the blokes realize that and then go around. Either teams are not getting the info quick enough and passing it along to their drivers, or the drivers themselves take their sweet time to proceed.

[steveaki13]

excellent points

I too think the unlapping scenario is the best
My issue is with the time it takes to get it done

1. As soon as the SC picks up the leaders, then the lapped cars should have the go ahead to unlap themselves, so this can be done at the same time the marshals are doing what they need to do.
Of course, safely too.
2. There needs to be more than 1 safety car, perhaps 3, with one in each sector, ready to pick up the leader wherever he is, then the rest of the pack can then fall in tow. This will eliminate the extra half lap it takes , while the top cars "artificially" gain a pitstop and holding up proceedings even more. Thus penalizing anyone who actually had the temerity to pit during actual race conditions. This has long been a thorn on my side. One could be in p2 make a pitstop, ,fall back to p10, then the SC comes and at least the top 3-5 cars get a free stop, don't lose position and you end up farther down than you should be.
3. the whole process needs to be handled more efficient and quicker by teams, drivers and race control
for example, they give the call for cars to unlap themselves, and then for some reason it takes another half lap before the blokes realize that and then go around. Either teams are not getting the info quick enough and passing it along to their drivers, or the drivers themselves take their sweet time to proceed.

Interesting Post.

I still maintain the cars a lap or more down could just drop to the tail of the field.

But in relation to your points.

1. I am not sure thats wise. Sometimes incidents that bring out the SC vary and thus it would be unwise to allow cars to move around the circuit straight away.
2. This could be a winner. I mean Le Mans do it albeit with a longer circuit but it would certainly stop the wasted laps. If cars lapped in each train moved through and just joined the next SC train, that would leave a 20-25 second gap ahead of each train at the restart.
3. Would agree with that. The whole exercise once its clear the type of incident being handled is under control is very slow and needs to be streamlined.

Good Points Truefan

[henners88]

I agree with cars being allowed to unlap themselves and get out of the way of the leaders for the re-start.

I think a re-start procedure should be introduced to stop any driver manipulating the pack into almost stopping on track. We've seen many times where a driver has coasted to an almost stand still before the SC line and bolted whilst the rest of the grid deal with a difficult situation. This goes for every driver that does this IMO. I'd personally like to see something introduced to prevent the silly advantage some leading drivers take in these situations. :)

[AndyL]

1. As soon as the SC picks up the leaders, then the lapped cars should have the go ahead to unlap themselves, so this can be done at the same time the marshals are doing what they need to do.
Of course, safely too.
2. There needs to be more than 1 safety car, perhaps 3, with one in each sector, ready to pick up the leader wherever he is, then the rest of the pack can then fall in tow. This will eliminate the extra half lap it takes , while the top cars "artificially" gain a pitstop and holding up proceedings even more. Thus penalizing anyone who actually had the temerity to pit during actual race conditions. This has long been a thorn on my side. One could be in p2 make a pitstop, ,fall back to p10, then the SC comes and at least the top 3-5 cars get a free stop, don't lose position and you end up farther down than you should be.
3. the whole process needs to be handled more efficient and quicker by teams, drivers and race control
for example, they give the call for cars to unlap themselves, and then for some reason it takes another half lap before the blokes realize that and then go around. Either teams are not getting the info quick enough and passing it along to their drivers, or the drivers themselves take their sweet time to proceed.

Number 1 is working against the main purpose of the safety car - to give the marshals clear track to work. I believe currently the "lapped cars may unlap themselves" signal is only given once the marshals have cleared the track.

Number 2 might be addressed by different means - like closing the pit lane from the announcement of the safety car until the train has formed up. We have had similar rules in the past of course.

The efficiency of the whole process certainly seems to have room for improvement. Was it Valencia a couple of years ago where the safety car came out right behind the leader? You'd think with the delta times rule and the realtime location data they have, that should have been impossible.

[AndyL]

2. This could be a winner. I mean Le Mans do it albeit with a longer circuit but it would certainly stop the wasted laps. If cars lapped in each train moved through and just joined the next SC train, that would leave a 20-25 second gap ahead of each train at the restart.


I may be wrong but I suspect Truefan wasn't suggesting there be 3 safety cars on track - but rather they should be ready to go in each sector, so that Charlie could send out the one that the leader is nearest to, reducing the time it takes for the leader to be picked up.

If you had 3 safety cars on track the marshals wouldn't have clear track to work on, which defeats the purpose of the safety car. The 8-mile La Sarthe circuit is a different case to a short F1 track.

[truefan72]

I may be wrong but I suspect Truefan wasn't suggesting there be 3 safety cars on track - but rather they should be ready to go in each sector, so that Charlie could send out the one that the leader is nearest to, reducing the time it takes for the leader to be picked up.

If you had 3 safety cars on track the marshals wouldn't have clear track to work on, which defeats the purpose of the safety car. The 8-mile La Sarthe circuit is a different case to a short F1 track.

yup :up:

that what I meant to say.
Thx for saying it better :)

[steveaki13]

I may be wrong but I suspect Truefan wasn't suggesting there be 3 safety cars on track - but rather they should be ready to go in each sector, so that Charlie could send out the one that the leader is nearest to, reducing the time it takes for the leader to be picked up.

If you had 3 safety cars on track the marshals wouldn't have clear track to work on, which defeats the purpose of the safety car. The 8-mile La Sarthe circuit is a different case to a short F1 track.

Fair enough.

Sorry I misunderstood.

I actually think you could employ 2 though, I mean there would be gap to work in and also if cars are going slow some work could still be done.

[steveaki13]

yup :up:

that what I meant to say.
Thx for saying it better :)

No worries. Its probably me not being able to read properly.

Quite right! I think, what is it good thought. And it has a right to a life.

[steveaki13]

Wow three new members from Netherland Antilles. What are the chances. :rolleyes:

[D-Type]

Wow three new members from Netherland Antilles. What are the chances. :rolleyes:

The chances are so low, that I've sent CheelurO on his way