Massa answered my last question on him

[kalasend]

I like Massa. He has been fast. But his two wins last year was based on a good qualify position(were they both from the pole?) and non-surprising race starts. The biggest question in my mind was then could he manage a more complicated, struggling race. I got the answer now. It is very disappointing. I think Massa officially lost claim to be a top tier driver now. Just being fast in non-disruptive qualifying sessions does not do much.

[race aficionado]

Man!
Some of you are taking it tooo hard on Massa.

So he messed up trying to pass a racer that was not going to allow that to happen - he lost the battle not the war - or whatever! :p

Can you imagine the radio communication blaring into his ears as he tried to pass the inspired Hamilton?

It went something like this:
"Pass him man! pass him now! What are you waiting for! Pass him now!
oH for goodness sake, don't be a wimp! pass him #@!*!!!" :D

That and the first corner start were the most exciting part of the race.

This thread has a big chance of being blended with another Massa one for sure . . . .

:s mokin:

[Dazz9908]

Massa is quick,and lightening fast but by no means is he a racer, He had a go but was made to look like an Amateur by an F1 Rookie.
He'll win races but just proven himself to be no world champion material.

[RJL25]

drove like an idiot in malaysia. Just when phillipe seems to be getting it together as a serious championship contender he puts in a performance like that.

race aficionado - your saying so what he messed up this one manouver, fair enough, but this isnt the first time! His career has been littered with stupid driving errors like this and it really isnt good enough. When was the last time you saw alonso or raikonen make similar mistakes?

[Storm]

I am not even a fan of Massa...but I think like race afi said you are being a bit too hard on him...he is still maturing (hopefully) and he will become as consistent as Kimi is over time. He has some natural talent but he needs to learn more racecraft. of course having said that he can only dream of being as consistently fast as Alonso!

And I think he won't be WDC unless Ferrari are really much faster than McLaren and Kimi is sleeping in his cockpit :p :

RJL25...i's Felipe :)

[Mark]

You can tell that Massa has been desperate to try and prove a point that he's at least as good as Kimi if not better, unfortunately he's just embarassed himself in the process.

[ArrowsFA1]

...I think like race afi said you are being a bit too hard on him...he is still maturing (hopefully) and he will become as consistent as Kimi is over time.
Perhaps the criticism of Massa is a little harsh but we are talking about a driver with 72 races behind him. The fact that he's still making errors he was making as a rookie suggests he is not maturing as a driver.

[ioan]

You can tell that Massa has been desperate to try and prove a point that he's at least as good as Kimi if not better, unfortunately he's just embarassed himself in the process.

All he was trying to do was not to let Alonso run away while Hamilton was holding them up. He was not trying to prove anything to Kimi or whoever cause he knew that Kimi was on reduced revs.

As for being made to look bad by a rookie, that's bullsh!t. And Hamilton saying he pushed Felipe to make an error is the most arrogant thing a rookie said, ever.
Felipe made the error whatever Hamilton was going to do, when you race you won't brake accordingly to your opponent but according to the last point from where you can reduce your speed enough to make the corner.
Drivers outbrake themselves even when the don't try to pass someone.

If Hamilton would have been the one trying to pass Felipe and as a consequence Massa would have done the mistake than I would have accorded Hamilton that he pushed him to make a mistake, but in this case it's just a blown up ego.

[Ranger]

All he was trying to do was not to let Alonso run away while Hamilton was holding them up. He was not trying to prove anything to Kimi or whoever cause he knew that Kimi was on reduced revs.

As for being made to look bad by a rookie, that's bullsh!t. And Hamilton saying he pushed Felipe to make an error is the most arrogant thing a rookie said, ever.
Felipe made the error whatever Hamilton was going to do, when you race you won't brake accordingly to your opponent but according to the last point from where you can reduce your speed enough to make the corner.
Drivers outbrake themselves even when the don't try to pass someone.

If Hamilton would have been the one trying to pass Felipe and as a consequence Massa would have done the mistake than I would have accorded Hamilton that he pushed him to make a mistake, but in this case it's just a blown up ego.

But this isn't about Hamilton. For whatever reason, Massa just drove dumb, and whilst his passing attempts made for good TV, it really can't be justified when you go back down the field and stay there, costing yourself and the team.

Good on him for trying, but he needs to do it a lot better next time.

[ioan]

Good on him for trying, but he needs to do it a lot better next time.

Well I was pretty pi!ssed of he didn't really try in Oz, and I might say I was happy he tried in Sepang.
I can remember lots of worse moves from other very good drivers along the history of F1, at least Felipe didn't take anyone of when he made his mistake.

[ArrowsFA1]

All he was trying to do was not to let Alonso run away...
Agreed. That was Felipe's concern. He'd seen his pole position advantage be reduced to third after being mugged by both McLarens at the first turns so was anxious to make up places.

He was not trying to prove anything to Kimi or whoever cause he knew that Kimi was on reduced revs.
After Melbourne he may not have needed to prove anything but I'd guess he wanted to at least beat Kimi to reduce the points difference.

As for being made to look bad by a rookie, that's bullsh!t. And Hamilton saying he pushed Felipe to make an error is the most arrogant thing a rookie said, ever.
It's not arrogance to state the facts, and that's all Hamilton did: "I was able to trick him into out-braking himself and get my car stopped and it was very fortunate that I was able to cut across and get back in front of him." What's so difficult about seeing the move for what it was - a superbly planned and executed one. LH opened the door just late enough to invite Massa through, but at the same time prepared to cut back under the Ferrari and take back the corner. Hamilton was in control of the situation, not Massa.

[raphael123]

I think Massa has shown his potential. He's obviously more on top of the car than Kimi. He has been the pace setter in the team all through winter testing, and was looking the stronger of the two in Oz before his car let him down. And same again in Malaysia, where he was the pace setter, and probably had a slight edge on Kimi in the race in terms of speed too. Just a shame his race-craft let him down. Saying that Kimi has said his pace was compromised due to the worry over his engine. Quite telling that Kimi never even got close enough to attempt a move.

To say Massa hasn't matured since his early f1 days shows how fickle people are these days. Massa, in the last year and a half is by far the most improved driver in F1. Ok, he made a mistake, but he's still a serious contender for race wins this season, especially when he has the best car on the grid, and his team-mate still seems to be settling in.

I think people are being harsh on him definately. I think a good race in Bahrain, and people will be raving about him again. What I've found most surprising is how Massa has generally been the quicker of the two (Massa and Kimi). Kimi definately needs to up his game if he wants to be regarded the quickest in F1. I don't think many people would argue against the fact that Alonso is currently the greatest driver on the grid. The impact Hamilton has made, has in a way relieved some pressure from Alonso, and taken away what an awesome job he's done so far. I wouldn't classify myself as an Alonso fan, far from it, but I can't help but admire the guy! In a way he's like Schumacher, without the unsportmanship and lying traits.

[555-04Q2]

You can tell that Massa has been desperate to try and prove a point that he's at least as good as Kimi if not better, unfortunately he's just embarassed himself in the process.

Embarrased himself :?: Kimi was supposed to come to Ferrari and blow him away. He outpaced Kimi during the testing season and has out qualified him in the last race. Poor luck in OZ and a frustratingly slow Hammy that caused his off does not make for an embarrassing situation.

[Ranger]

Embarrased himself :?: Kimi was supposed to come to Ferrari and blow him away. He outpaced Kimi during the testing season and has out qualified him in the last race. Poor luck in OZ and a frustratingly slow Hammy that caused his off does not make for an embarrassing situation.

Embarrassing because it was such a simple mistake which lost him a handful of points.

Pace during the testing season and out-qualifying Kimi when he is conserving his engine is barely valuable or worthwhile in the long run - it means **** all if the results aren't there, which, thus far, they aren't.

[ArrowsFA1]

To say Massa hasn't matured since his early f1 days shows how fickle people are these days.
I've always thought Massa is overrated so my criticism of him in this instance is consistent with my view. He has improved as a driver, but so he should have. Drivers should always be looking to improve in every possible area and Massa certainly would not deserve his place in F1 if he hadn't improved, so giving him credit for that is not really saying much.

[jens]

Well, I believe that Massa has a top-class raw speed and has speed to match anyone's pace, but he just somehow hasn't found the right balance how to act in battles. After Australia he was criticized for being too passive and not overtaking cars soon enough. On the contrary in Malaysia he was too aggressive. Over- or underaggressive...

He has to sit down and think over his behaviour on racing tracks. He has potential and it's a real shame that he is wasting his potential with such manouvers. If this continues, Felipe will start reminding me Montoya - a good raw speed, but a lot of errors, which become faithful for title hopes.

[aryan]

Massa has always been overrated. He was Ferrari's protege from the beginning, and even when he was testing that Ferrari (was that 2002) most of us talked of him as a hot-headed car-wrecking racer. Personally, I never uderstoof why JT rates him so high.

[kalasend]

One thing for sure: you can safely take Hamilton off the rookie list.
This is especially important to Massa, who IMO, made his mistakes because he thought it would be easy to overtake Hamilton and his focus at that moment was wrongly placed at Alonso

[wmcot]

Just read on PitPass that Massa admits he made the "mistake" which was more of a calculated risk than a mistake. Where I think he blew his chance was right at the beginning of the race - 1. Not cutting FA off at the start (MS-style) and then 2. Not slotting in between FA and LH at the first turn.

I do have to admit that he didn't lose his composure after going off and pulled back into 5th in a conservative drive rather than try another risky move and lose even more positions. So he showed some immaturity and some maturity in the same race.

[jens]

Yeah, Felipe said that he desperately needed to get past Hamilton, because he was going to pit earlier than the Brit. He wanted to take a risk to fight for win instead of settling for 3rd place.

As for Bahrain, then I suppose Massa has again good chances of taking pole position, but it would be interesting to see, how will he drive in the race and whether he acts somehow differently than in Malaysia (at the race start and in battles - if there are going to be any).

[Valve Bounce]

Massa is quick,and lightening fast but by no means is he a racer, He had a go but was made to look like an Amateur by an F1 Rookie.
He'll win races but just proven himself to be no world champion material.

The camera was on Massa for much of the time he was following Hamilton, and I must say that my impression was that he had the faster car but was racing erratically in his efforts to get by Hamilton. Massa also concedes that Lewis had three more laps of fuel on board which he says wasn't that much!! Well, if you consider the weight difference, then it explains why Massa had the faster car. He was just lucky he didn't get stuck in the kitty litter.

[raphael123]

I've always thought Massa is overrated so my criticism of him in this instance is consistent with my view. He has improved as a driver, but so he should have. Drivers should always be looking to improve in every possible area and Massa certainly would not deserve his place in F1 if he hadn't improved, so giving him credit for that is not really saying much.

You said you didn't think Massa had matured - "The fact that he's still making errors he was making as a rookie suggests he is not maturing as a driver."

I simply stated that is simply not the case. He CLEARLY has matured as a driver from his rookie days. If your taking that back, and now saying he has matured from his rookie days, but we shouldn't praise that because it's to be expected, that's fair enough, I agree. But your original comment was that from his error in Malaysia suggested he hadn't matured since his rookie days. When it's clear for all to see he has matured a lot, especially in the past year and a half :)

[raphael123]

Massa has always been overrated. He was Ferrari's protege from the beginning, and even when he was testing that Ferrari (was that 2002) most of us talked of him as a hot-headed car-wrecking racer. Personally, I never uderstoof why JT rates him so high.

Maybe because Jean Todt's son (Nicholas?) is Felipe's manager? :)

[K-Pu]

I´m not a Massa fan, but one thing has to be said:

At least he tried to overtake. That´s more that can be said about other drivers. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but if you don´t try and just sit back and wait for it to come... Ask RS and his "overtakings".

Of course Massa makes mistakes. 72 races and making mistakes is the most normal thing. He´s human. Even MS made stupid mistakes with more than 200 races and 7 WDC´s. These things happen, and you can´t crucify a pilot for a bad day. Massa has had a lot of bad days... and is still seen as a hot-headed-car-wrecker (sic), and I think that´s something you can´t forget.

In my opinion there´s more "rightful bashing" based on his past performances instead of at the last race. For me, he´s not a future WDC, he´s not a great racer, he can be fast and he´s unconsistent. But nothing is decided from last week performance.

[ArrowsFA1]

You said you didn't think Massa had matured - "The fact that he's still making errors he was making as a rookie suggests he is not maturing as a driver."

I simply stated that is simply not the case. He CLEARLY has matured as a driver from his rookie days. If your taking that back, and now saying he has matured from his rookie days, but we shouldn't praise that because it's to be expected, that's fair enough, I agree. But your original comment was that from his error in Malaysia suggested he hadn't matured since his rookie days. When it's clear for all to see he has matured a lot, especially in the past year and a half :)
There are two things here raphael123:

1) In my view Massa has improved as a driver. Watching him race the Sauber in his rookie season was...entertaining...to say the least, and erratic at best! We don't now see, for example, the frequent and excessive steering corrections we saw then. That's an improvement.
2) Despite the improvement there is still a lack of maturity which should have developed through experience. The errors he made in Malaysia, while understandable to a degree as he was trying to make up places, were those of a desperate driver, not a mature one. He was not planning or controlling his battle with Hamilton, but was reacting to Hamilton's driving.

If Felipe wants to beat Kimi and win the WDC he will need to improve and mature as a driver. It's not going to happen until he does, and the clock is ticking.

[raphael123]

There are two things here raphael123:

1) In my view Massa has improved as a driver. Watching him race the Sauber in his rookie season was...entertaining...to say the least, and erratic at best! We don't now see, for example, the frequent and excessive steering corrections we saw then. That's an improvement.
2) Despite the improvement there is still a lack of maturity which should have developed through experience. The errors he made in Malaysia, while understandable to a degree as he was trying to make up places, were those of a desperate driver, not a mature one. He was not planning or controlling his battle with Hamilton, but was reacting to Hamilton's driving.

If Felipe wants to beat Kimi and win the WDC he will need to improve and mature as a driver. It's not going to happen until he does, and the clock is ticking.

I agree he needs to mature. Alonso and Kimi are in a different league when it comes to maturity, even Hamilton seems more mature behind the wheel! But do you really believe he hasn't matured since his rookie season?!

That was the only thing I disagreed with your original post. Everything you've said since I've agreed with. I simply disagreed with your suggestion that Massa hasn't matured since his debut season, which is clearly incorrect. He may not be mature enough still, but he has matured.

[555-04Q2]

Embarrassing because it was such a simple mistake which lost him a handful of points.

And are you embarressed when you stub your toe and bleed on the floor, which is a far simpler mistake/mis-calculation :?: ;)

[Ranger]

And are you embarressed when you stub your toe and bleed on the floor, which is a far simpler mistake/mis-calculation :?: ;)

Nope. I don't have hundreds of millions of people watching me, and I am not paid $6 million a year not to do those sort of mistakes! ;)

[555-04Q2]

Nope. I don't have hundreds of millions of people watching me, and I am not paid $6 million a year not to do those sort of mistakes! ;)

:laugh: You've got me there :up:

Can we at least say that he tried to overtake which is almost impossible in F1 these days and provided us with some entertainment value besides the normal prossesional follow my leader :?:

[raphael123]

Schumacher wasn't embarrassed when he made that 'mistake' in Monaco last year, as a 7 x WC who is paid £30m. Should Massa be for that?

Though it was obviously a mistake, I was happy to see him push Hamilton and attempt to get passed. Better than Kimi who just sat back - though he later claimed it was down to restrictions on his engine.

[Ranger]

:laugh: You've got me there :up:

Can we at least say that he tried to overtake which is almost impossible in F1 these days and provided us with some entertainment value besides the normal prossesional follow my leader :?:

As I said, good on him for trying - but next time he's going to have to do a fair bit better than that. :)

[555-04Q2]

but next time he's going to have to do a fair bit better than that. :)

Indeed. I dont think he nor many other drivers expected LH to be as quick and as consistant as he has been which has thrown a spanner in the works for them. LH will be the deciding factor as to who wins the WDC between Massa, Kimi and Alonso as he is taking points off them at the moment and it looks set to continue all season long.

[Ranger]

Indeed. I dont think he nor many other drivers expected LH to be as quick and as consistant as he has been which has thrown a spanner in the works for them. LH will be the deciding factor as to who wins the WDC between Massa, Kimi and Alonso as he is taking points off them at the moment and it looks set to continue all season long.

Should be a good season then! :)

[555-04Q2]

Should be a good season then! :)

We can only hope ;)

[OmarF1]

Massa it's a weak minded, nervous driver, he had it all easy on the way to Ferrari, no great skills, no great performances in midfield cars, no teammate crushings, but a good manager with a nepotist relative at the italian squad, anyway, Massa it's nothing special, what i hate the most about him it is his fake attitude of "I'm strong as Kimi or Alonso", dude the fact that you drive for Ferrari does not means you are all that.

Sorry for my Massa-bashing i just got to let it out. LOL

[ioan]

"I'm strong as Kimi or Alonso" LOL

Maybe a Link to an article where Massa said this?!

[OmarF1]

Maybe a Link to an article where Massa said this?!

Sorry Ioan, don't have a link, I'm not sure if he even said that, maybe never, it is just a personal perception of him, the look on his face :D

[ioan]

Sorry Ioan, don't have a link, I'm not sure if he even said that, maybe never, it is just a personal perception of him, the look on his face :D

I see.
I just asked because the most he said was that he hopes to be able to fight with FA and KR.

[OmarF1]

I see.
I just asked because the most he said was that he hopes to be able to fight with FA and KR.

yeah I know, maybe I'm wrong ioan, maybe I'm wrong about Massa, at least he has the nuts to try to overtake ON track, hallelujah not all drivers are corporate computers programed to sum points and risk nothing. but Massa has still to improve.

[ioan]

yeah I know, maybe I'm wrong ioan, maybe I'm wrong about Massa, at least he has the nuts to try to overtake ON track, hallelujah not all drivers are corporate computers programed to sum points and risk nothing. but Massa has still to improve.

Yes he has to think more but he's on the right way. I was glad he tried to overtake, compared to Oz where he was very level headed and waited a bit to much.

[jazzwolf]

My opinion es that FM is another JPM. I am not talking about the last race, but last year also. He is a fast but is not reliable. He will cost Ferrari some important points, could endangered Kimi´s chance of being WDC. As happend with Montoya in McLaren.

[leopard]

True for some extents, but i just don't think he was hampering Michael for being WDC, on the contrary he was guardsman for Michael. The main driver was hampering Michael was Alonso :)

It is now different with Kimi at Ferrari, as the more senior driver at Ferrari Felippe feels mentally stronger with more experience against the teammate. I think Ferrari have to think fast, give Felippe a definitive tenor how many races to go tolerable mistake for Massa, decide who is the main driver, unless if they want to be another McLaren was.

[aryan]

Maybe because Jean Todt's son (Nicholas?) is Felipe's manager? :)

Yes! Sorry, had completely forgotten that one.

well, there you go...

[raphael123]

True for some extents, but i just don't think he was hampering Michael for being WDC, on the contrary he was guardsman for Michael. The main driver was hampering Michael was Alonso :)

It is now different with Kimi at Ferrari, as the more senior driver at Ferrari Felippe feels mentally stronger with more experience against the teammate. I think Ferrari have to think fast, give Felippe a definitive tenor how many races to go tolerable mistake for Massa, decide who is the main driver, unless if they want to be another McLaren was.

I agree, Massa was of much greater assistance to Michael than Fisi was to Alonso!

Massa gave away some cheap points at the start of the year, but did a great job in the 2nd half of the season.

[harsha]

fm was too agressive and not agressive enough in the same race

[raphael123]

Seems to be correct. Winning from the front with the fastest car isn't too hard. It'll be interesting to see if he can win a race from behind. Reminds me of Ralf Schuamcher in the sense Ralf could only win from the front, in the best machinery.