Let the train take the strain.......

[CarlMetro]

..............erm no thanks, I can't afford the time or the cost.

As part of my job I have to fly to various parts of Europe on a fairly regular basis. I also spend a fair ammount of time driving up and down the UK motorway system.

At the moment I have several customers I need to visit in and around the Aberdeen/Inverness area of Scotland. As much as I enjoy driving, the ten or so hours it takes can be a little tiring to say the least. I get bored with flying too so, I thought, why not take the train?

I contacted the National Rail enquiries website and with some surprise was quoted £167.25 for a journey which will take 8 hours and involve three different train changes.

Easyjet from Luton (20 minutes by car from me) takes one and a half hours and costs £62. Of course there will still be polititians and other people wondering why we don't make more use of the national rail network :rolleyes:

[AndySpeed]

It's down to what the consumer wants unfortunately. Whilst flying is not the greenest or most efficient method, it is the quickest which is why you will do it.

Additionally, business practices have changed. Go back 25 years and would it have made as much sense to use cheap flights? Probably not as flying was much more costly. However, to remain competitive it seems that moving so quickly and cheaply is essential today.

And that won't change unless there is a major shift towards rail use for some reason or another. I think that the government should do more to encourage people to use trains, and that includes making them cheaper.

Easyjet/Flybe is not sustainable.

[Dave B]

But there has been a shift towards rail, however because of the way the network is fragmented it discourages competition and investment resulting in train companies now trying to price people off of the more popular routes rather than providing more capacity.

[sal]

If you book far enough in advance and look at single tickets rather than straight returns you can make some big savings...

[BDunnell]

But there has been a shift towards rail, however because of the way the network is fragmented it discourages competition and investment resulting in train companies now trying to price people off of the more popular routes rather than providing more capacity.

Competition on the railways is impossible to achieve, because there isn't the capacity on the tracks. It didn't work in the so-called 'golden era' prior to nationalisation, and it won't work now.

[Dave B]

But that's my point: nobody has any interest in investing to make more capacity. If there was true competition, like the airlines, operators would find a way.

If I want to fly from London to Scotland I've a choice of several airlines offering various levels of service at differing costs. I can pay a pittance and be treated like sub-human scum on Ryanair, or pay a three-figure sum and fly with some dignity on BA. At least I've got that option.

Same when I go to France: I've a choice of Eurotunnel or a couple of ferry operators, each with their own pros and cons.

But with the train, I'm stuck with GNER. Doesn't matter if they're expensive or if the service is bad - they're my only option. If they had to share their route with (say) EasyTrain, O'LearyTrain, and Virgin Beardy Trains; market forces would keep prices down and encourage competition to provide good service.

Of course, none of this would be of any help on an unprofitable rural route - I accept that. I don't have all the answers, I just know that most of Europe manages to run a train service that a county like the UK should be able to emulate.

[BDunnell]

But that's my point: nobody has any interest in investing to make more capacity. If there was true competition, like the airlines, operators would find a way.

If I want to fly from London to Scotland I've a choice of several airlines offering various levels of service at differing costs. I can pay a pittance and be treated like sub-human scum on Ryanair, or pay a three-figure sum and fly with some dignity on BA. At least I've got that option.

Same when I go to France: I've a choice of Eurotunnel or a couple of ferry operators, each with their own pros and cons.

But with the train, I'm stuck with GNER. Doesn't matter if they're expensive or if the service is bad - they're my only option. If they had to share their route with (say) EasyTrain, O'LearyTrain, and Virgin Beardy Trains; market forces would keep prices down and encourage competition to provide good service.

Of course, none of this would be of any help on an unprofitable rural route - I accept that. I don't have all the answers, I just know that most of Europe manages to run a train service that a county like the UK should be able to emulate.

What most of Europe has are nationalised rail networks where competition is largely non-existent. Every experience shows that this is by far the best option. Why else has no other country in the world gone down the UK's route?

[Mark]

But with the train, I'm stuck with GNER.


Not for much longer!
[/quote]

[LotusElise]

Trains would be an excellent way to travel if they ran properly. As it is, they cannot be relied on.
IMHO it is not feasible to run a vital service as if it was a straight business.

[Tomski]

Trains would be an excellent way to travel if they ran properly. As it is, they cannot be relied on.
IMHO it is not feasible to run a vital service as if it was a straight business.


Trains are no different to any other form of transport and occassionally suffer prblems. Why do people have the idea that trains are unreliable whereas road transport is not?

[LotusElise]

They are more expensive than some other forms of transport.
When they break down, it is much more disruptive. There is no way of taking a short cut or diversion apart from getting off and taking a taxi. Although buses are routinely late, I would wager that most bus journeys are fairly short, plus another bus can come along to pick up extra passengers. Not so trains.
Although train travel can be very practical and relatively pleasant, the general inflexibilty of the rail system means that problems have a greater impact. Better precautions should be taken against them.

[Tomski]

Have you never been caught on the motorway between junctions when it all goes wrong?

My personal record is about 3 hours stationery on the M6, at least on a train you can get a drink and go to the loo.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Pulling into preston station the other day on a train from Manchester the guy sat opposite to me said "does this train go to Liverpool?"

I repied no "Blackpool"

He said "Ohh sh1t"

[Hazell B]

As I'd arranged to meet LK in Leeds last monday, I decided to get all green and use public transport. The train from here has too many changes and takes 50% longer than the bus. It runs less often and costs far more.

Took the bus instead :)

[Dave B]

Took the bus instead :)
Give it back :p

[Hazell B]

:laugh:

But it's easier to park than the Discovery ;)

[Captain VXR]

Public Transport http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/violent022.gif is rubbish
Use http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/transport035.gif

[Drew]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6223701.stm

Train fares rise above inflation...

[Observer7]

Trains are no different to any other form of transport and occassionally suffer prblems. Why do people have the idea that trains are unreliable whereas road transport is not?

People in Britain tend to judge on their peculiar British experience with a train system disrupted by privatization into a myriad of competing companies.

In Britain they have no high speed trains like in France or Germany. I don't know how frequent the trains run there.

Just 13 years after the opening of the Channel tunnel, the Eurostar high speed train will be able to run full speed from the tunnel to London, when the new St. Pancras International station and the new high speed rail link London-tunnel will open in November 2007.

I suggest to look beyond the British shores, and follow the steps of others by strenghening the railway system instead of destroying it completely.


O7


PS: In June 2007, France will put the Eastern high speed line (LGV Est) into service, where trains will operate regularly at 320 km/h.

[Freya J.]

Public transport in the UK isn't all bad. I know of a guy who works for London Transport and believe me he and his colleagues work damn hard. It isn't an easy job coordinating the transport needs of a city (any city). And I know that other countries can do it better, but few have the same amount of aging infrastructure to maintain and ultimately have a bigger budget to work with. After saying all that, I choose my car every day to travel around in :p : but that wasn't always the case. Public transport has served me (quite)well in the past.

[CarlMetro]

Public transport in general, works. So long as you're prepared to wait for hours to get onto a dirty, graffiti covered bus/train and listen to someone elses Mp3 player whilst breathing in their body odour, bad breath and germs, that is of course if you can get a seat/hear yourself above the noise.

Of course you'll also have to be prepared for the journey to take a while, due to the need for the bus/train/tube to stop every 100m or so to take on or let off passengers.

And you must also be prepared to arrive only 'somewhere near' your final destination, that is of course if you've managed to work out which bus route you were supposed to take and where you need to change onto another one.

Yes I can see why so many people drive their cars................

[Freya J.]

I can't deny they are all valid points. Especially when you think about after a hard day at work how sometimes you can just collapse into the sanctuary called your car and know you will be home, roadworks permitting in x minutes. Smelly buses are just horrible and are a disgrace. But it is the people who abuse them that I have a problem with.

[Hazell B]

I went off on another trip the other day and again used the bus. Train would have been as good for where I was going, but I didn't fancy the danger of carrying bags and mobile phone alone on a train - at least on a bus there's a driver within earshot.

[Drew]

I generally use the train when I go on small journeys, cannot stand buses though...


I guess also different cities are better adapted. For example when I went to Sheffield I went by train from Plymouth for about £20. But also because I had never been there before, I knew that the tram was right outside, that it was cheap and that it took me to almost exactly where I wanted to go.

It must be a nightmare for people coming to Plymouth. The train station is at the top of the commercial zone and the bus station is at the bottom. If I didn't know Plymouth, I would have had no idea where to go..

[BeansBeansBeans]

Whenever I am forced to travel by bus, I always become very Conservative and Elitist.

[Observer7]

Public transport in general, works.
[...]
And you must also be prepared to arrive only 'somewhere near' your final destination, that is of course if you've managed to work out which bus route you were supposed to take and where you need to change onto another one.

Sure, while the parking lot for your car might be even farther away from the work place or home, or very costly.


O7

[CarlMetro]

Sure, while the parking lot for your car might be even farther away from the work place or home

Highly unlikely in this day and age and as for cost? I claim back all my parking from my company :D

Here's an exercise anyone can do. Plan a route though London from Kings Cross station to Hendon Air Museum. Then go from the museum to Harrods in Knightsbridge. See how many times you have to change bus/tube and see also how long it takes you to complete the trip either on or off-peak. If you can complete it in under four hours you would be extremely lucky, where as I could drive it in under an hour.

[Observer7]

Highly unlikely in this day and age and as for cost? I claim back all my parking from my company :D

Nice for you, if you can do that. But most companies also can do no miracles and create a parking lot right at their doorstep. Even worse at home -- there are quarters in this city where I happen to live, where people find places for their car only after circling the streets around their home, and then walking several blocks from their car's place to their home.


Here's an exercise anyone can do. Plan a route though London from Kings Cross station to Hendon Air Museum. Then go from the museum to Harrods in Knightsbridge. See how many times you have to change bus/tube and see also how long it takes you to complete the trip either on or off-peak. If you can complete it in under four hours you would be extremely lucky, where as I could drive it in under an hour.

I don't know about this Hendon Air Museum. I found several routes from Kings Cross to Hendon (http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en), taking 1:06h, with 2 or 3 changes (Finsbury Park and London Moorgate, or Highbury + Islington and West Hampstead.

But, as I said, the British Rail system is in my opinion in a very sorrow state, and could be much much better. The alternative is not to congest the streets further by increasing car traffic, but strenghening and speeding up the rail system.

i.e., the alternative is not necessary the existing system of public transportation, but the one which Britain is lagging behind in building.


Yours,
O7

[BDunnell]

But, as I said, the British Rail system is in my opinion in a very sorrow state, and could be much much better. The alternative is not to congest the streets further by increasing car traffic, but strenghening and speeding up the rail system.

i.e., the alternative is not necessary the existing system of public transportation, but the one which Britain is lagging behind in building.

And why have we lagged behind in this respect? Because, at least in part, of the reluctance of a sufficient majority of the public to support political parties who were willing to spend more on public transport. Some of the worst damage to the rail network was done by the last Conservative governments under John Major (the railways were doing pretty well under Thatcher, but then he decided to ruin it because of his misguided nostalgia for competition on the railways).

[Knock-on]

OK, I didn't know this forum existed when posting an identical thread on Chit Chat.

I'm sick of being ripped off by the bloody trains.

South West trains have just put the newest, most reliable carriages into Storage so that they can bring out stock that breaks down twice as frequently but has less seats and more standing space. You pay 50p per mile to get to work and have to stand up.

The London train and tube network has announced price increases above inflation up to 35% because people are abusing the public transport network by using it.

As for the argument by BDunnell that it's the populations fault for not supporting the Government. Poppycock!

Why do we elect government if it's not to make these types of executive decisions. They can make a hugely unpopular decision to go to war but are spineless in deciding to do something that will actually benefit the country.

The train companies are raking it in and where is the benefit to the commuters. There is a lot of money in the pot, it's just not being used. What about the tax that's being charged on Fuel, that goes back to the Governments coffers instead of being reinvested.

Dear Terry, is it me?

[BeansBeansBeans]

Dear Terry, is it me?

Haha...didn't know you were a TOG Knockie.

[BDunnell]

As for the argument by BDunnell that it's the populations fault for not supporting the Government. Poppycock!

Why do we elect government if it's not to make these types of executive decisions. They can make a hugely unpopular decision to go to war but are spineless in deciding to do something that will actually benefit the country.

The train companies are raking it in and where is the benefit to the commuters. There is a lot of money in the pot, it's just not being used. What about the tax that's being charged on Fuel, that goes back to the Governments coffers instead of being reinvested.

Dear Terry, is it me?

Forgive me, but it is true that people voted in successive Tory governments for whom spending on public transport was not a priority — remember Thatcher's quote about people who used it being failures? Since then, people have voted in governments who are in favour of maintaining the status quo regarding privatisation, which has largely been disastrous for the network.

Use public transport abroad and you will see the difference, which comes from years of public investment and proper central control of fares and service standards. The train operating companies in the UK shouldn't be able to get away with fare rises like the ones imposed this week, yet it can because there is little incentive for them to do anything other than make money. No-one who was in favour of privatisation should be surprised by this.

[Dave B]

The London train and tube network has announced price increases above inflation up to 35% because people are abusing the public transport network by using it.

To be fair, I think it's only cash prices which are rising. Oyster fares, which any regular Tube traveller (including me) pays, are being frozen.

The Tube is crowded, dirty and with freezing or boiling; but 99% of the time I don't have a problem with either the service or the pricing.

[Dave B]

I've found the link now, and for once I was right :p
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=1021

Eg:


A single journey on the Tube in Zone 1 is frozen at £1.50 when using Oyster. The same journey using cash will be £4

All Oyster single fares are frozen across London and the Oyster daily price cap for adults remains 50p below the One Day Travelcard price

[BDunnell]

And everybody can get an Oyster card, and £1.50 is very cheap, I think, given that we are talking about London. If people want to be martyrs and pay £4 that's up to them.

[Dave B]

It's a £3 (refundable) deposit to get an Oyster, so even short-term visitors to the capital could get one and save money. :up:

[Knock-on]

Forgive me, but it is true that people voted in successive Tory governments for whom spending on public transport was not a priority — remember Thatcher's quote about people who used it being failures? Since then, people have voted in governments who are in favour of maintaining the status quo regarding privatisation, which has largely been disastrous for the network.

Use public transport abroad and you will see the difference, which comes from years of public investment and proper central control of fares and service standards. The train operating companies in the UK shouldn't be able to get away with fare rises like the ones imposed this week, yet it can because there is little incentive for them to do anything other than make money. No-one who was in favour of privatisation should be surprised by this.

The thing is that the rail network when it was state run was a bloody mess and it is more efficient now. The problem is that too many people want to use it and lack of investment means we don't have the capacity.

Successive governments have systematically failed to invest in public transport since the 70's.

The Conservatives looked on it as a cash cow to be raped. Labour as "jobs for the boys" to maintain a Union power-base.

It seems that the poor commuters are the least of Government worries when it comes to Transport Policy.

[BDunnell]

The thing is that the rail network when it was state run was a bloody mess and it is more efficient now.

I disagree. Privatisation has been a failure, and the system may as well be state-run again. There is a very good reason why no other country in the world has gone for the British model of privatisation. Many people with a deep knowledge of the industry, including people to whom I have spoken, would also claim that BR was at its best in the years leading up to privatisation, which then undid a lot of good work.


The Conservatives looked on it as a cash cow to be raped. Labour as "jobs for the boys" to maintain a Union power-base.

I don't think the latter is true. The Labour party under Tony Blair has no interest in maintaining a union power-base. And, as I think I said earlier in this thread, Thatcher didn't want to privatise the railways. It was Major who did, for all the wrong reasons. So the Tories weren't all bad in this regard.