Electric cars

[Knock-on]

Can't remember discussing this recently so as they are going to be a part of the future, what do we think?

Something to get the discussion started. Hmmmm, I would :)

BBC News - Drayson Racing electric car sets new world speed record (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23051252)

[Mark]

As has been the case since they have been first trialled, range and recharge time are the issues. The problem being that both are poor. If you can fix the range issue then the recharge becomes less of a problem, fix the recharge time then the range (as long as it's around 100 miles) becomes less of an issue.

[Starter]

As has been the case since they have been first trialled, range and recharge time are the issues. The problem being that both are poor. If you can fix the range issue then the recharge becomes less of a problem, fix the recharge time then the range (as long as it's around 100 miles) becomes less of an issue.
Mark has it correct. If the vehicle is only used in the city, then it could be quite practical. Outside city limits, not so much. Here in the US, where distances can be fairly long, its even less practical for most people. Get a range of two to three hundred miles, even in winter (which is where most electric cars fail miserably), and a recharge time of two hours or under and you might have a winner. Of course that begs the question of building the recharge infrastructure which will also be key to general acceptance.

[donKey jote]

I'll be the first to get one at my workplace, but only when they're worth it and they sort the range out for a 96km round trip on the Autobahn in Winter.
I've tested a few at the tracks, and I like them. The only problem is having to recharge between tyre sets, or between laps if you drive them on the handling courses :laugh: :p

[Corvettian]

Would it not be better to design the cars so that the batteries could be exchanged at a charging station, rather than waiting for fixed batteries to charge in place? It might not be as compact an installation as fixed batteries, but a lot of time would be saved.

[Corvettian]

Obviously the above would need an automated machine to remove the "flat" batteries and insert fully-charged ones, but that can't be so hard to design, can it? It could be set into the garage floor; the cars would simply be parked over it, like a maintenance pit.

[Starter]

Obviously the above would need an automated machine to remove the "flat" batteries and insert fully-charged ones, but that can't be so hard to design, can it? It could be set into the garage floor; the cars would simply be parked over it, like a maintenance pit.
Think about a charging station which would have to change the batteries in cars as often as a gas station pumps a tank of gas (actually more often as cars get at least 300 miles to a tank and electrics maybe 150 average). Think about as many charging stations as there are gas stations. Assuming it worked well, the infrastructure would take decades to put in place.

[Corvettian]

Think about a charging station which would have to change the batteries in cars as often as a gas station pumps a tank of gas (actually more often as cars get at least 300 miles to a tank and electrics maybe 150 average). Think about as many charging stations as there are gas stations. Assuming it worked well, the infrastructure would take decades to put in place. How long did it take to build the infrastructure for refuelling petroleum-powered cars, though?
I'm not proposing a sudden, complete changeover from one energy source to another; it would have to be a gradual process of introduction, probably over a number of decades anyway.

[Corvettian]

Unfortunately, profit has a big influence on how quickly things are done, too. If the companies providing the battery service (or any alternative fuel supply service) made as much of a profit as the oil companies have made over the years, I'm sure the network would be built up slightly more quickly...

[Rollo]

I think that electric does have a future, though not in the way that anyone is suggesting:

http://www.crashzone.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/jaguar-cx75-2.jpg

The Jaguar CX-75 prototype had two microjets which charged a set of batteries which drove electric motors. The beauty with jet engines is that they're crudely simple and can be made to run on practically any hydrocarbon which includes canola oil and sunflower oil. The microjets in a jet-electric could be run at constant speed which given enough development time would increase efficiency and by that stage, we'd work out which crop could give us the best yield of oil.

But as for pure electric cars? Really all you've done is move emissions from the tail pipe to a power station. An increase in the number of electric cars would necessitate increased demand on national grids, so is there really any net gains to be won?

[Corvettian]

But as for pure electric cars? Really all you've done is move emissions from the tail pipe to a power station. An increase in the number of electric cars would necessitate increased demand on national grids, so is there really any net gains to be won?
You beat me to it, Rollo! I was just writing another reply saying what you've said about "moving the emissions from one place to another"! :p
I like the look of that Jaguar gas turbine prototype. The US Army's Main Battle Tank uses a gas turbine for its multi-fuel capability, as well as being light and very quiet. The only problem is that gas turbines are usually designed for a specific fuel; they may be able to run on other fuels, but doing do reduces the life of the turbine blades.

[Mark in Oshawa]

WE had this argument a few years back on this Forum and Daniel and a few others were all over me because I said they were all but useless in cold weather. That hasn't changed. The Chevy Volt with its onboard engine charging sort of is a cheater and the most usuable one out there, but I have seen a few Tesla Sedan's out there in Toronto so they are being bought. I am with Rollo though. Even if the electric car gets more usuable, the emissions and energy use isn't less, it is just generated elsewhere. The internal combustion engine is better now than it ever has been.....why change?

[donKey jote]

Think about a charging station which would have to change the batteries in cars as often as a gas station pumps a tank of gas (actually more often as cars get at least 300 miles to a tank and electrics maybe 150 average). Think about as many charging stations as there are gas stations. Assuming it worked well, the infrastructure would take decades to put in place.

Think about fitting a plug at home or inductive charging in your garage or usual parking spot... no decades just an electrician :)

[donKey jote]

But as for pure electric cars? Really all you've done is move emissions from the tail pipe to a power station. An increase in the number of electric cars would necessitate increased demand on national grids, so is there really any net gains to be won?

They could of course be bidirectionally linked to the grid... think of all that extra storage for buffering surges :)

[Rollo]

What about if you put giant grooves in motorways, like slot cars; that way all the cars on the motorway could be charged whilst they were all on it, could all be speed regulated and in case of an accident, could all be shut down at once.
During times of low traffic densities, the MoT could turn up the voltage so that instead of 70mph you could all be doing 120 or 130mph, or in bad rain slowed down to 65mph or something.

If Scalextric can work it out multiple cars on the same lane, why not the Highways Agency. Aren't cars supposed to have GPS, Sat-Nav and parky-doovy-thingos anyway?

[airshifter]

I simply can't see electrics being adopted by more than a very small percentage of people any time in the near future. The lack of range and charging time are simply too restrictive.

Hybrids have some potential, and I see them as the crossover point as we work towards electrics. But even then until costs come down not many will buy hybrids either, at least not hybrids that are really efficient.

[Starter]

Think about fitting a plug at home or inductive charging in your garage or usual parking spot... no decades just an electrician :)
Most don't have garages and many live in apartments. Also doesn't solve the range issue for one day trips. Getting people to pay to have all that installed still means decades.

[Bagwan]

Think about fitting a plug at home or inductive charging in your garage or usual parking spot... no decades just an electrician :)

A few years ago , there was talk of creating a "hydrogen highway" , to see if the idea of running cars with tailpipes spewing water was viable .
That was an expensive infrastructure , not to mention the fact that it would put , effectively , a hydrogen bomb , waiting to explode , in the hands of the lowly gas jockey at every filling station .
Big oil knew it could never be viable , and easily squashed the idea whilst looking green for the try .

But , adding a few circuits , and receptacles is not much work .
Adding the required solar panels on the roof of the station would make it , potentially , a real money maker for the station .
A few more at home and you've got some cheap transport to work .
And , a receptacle at work gets you home .

Sure , there are issues with keeping the battery warm if you live in cold climatic conditions , but what is the issue with the idea where the climate suits it ?

One of the biggest issues the car industry has with electric is the lack of a suitable design .
As far as I know , the Tesla still runs on bundled cell phone batteries .

Perhaps KERS will help in designing the storage platform for the world .

The biggest issue with electric , though , is the lack of the sound of the internal combustion belching , but it's actually pretty easy , as I found out as a kid , that when you put the playing card sideways in the spokes , and use two cloths pegs , you can tune it to sound a lot like the early Ferrari V10s .

[Mark]

That was an expensive infrastructure , not to mention the fact that it would put , effectively , a hydrogen bomb , waiting to explode , in the hands of the lowly gas jockey at every filling station .


LOL! Hydrogen can explode, tis true. However it's by no means a 'hydrogren bomb' in the terms most people would understand e.g. A thermonuclear bomb. If you want to make a big bang, there's little better than petrol.

[Bagwan]

LOL! Hydrogen can explode, tis true. However it's by no means a 'hydrogren bomb' in the terms most people would understand e.g. A thermonuclear bomb. If you want to make a big bang, there's little better than petrol.

When I was in high school , we did an experiment where we had a canister that looked like two funnels with the mouths stuck together .
The canister was filled with hydrogen through a larger opening on the bottom , and then the top of it was lit . to burn with a small flame on top .
When the ratio of oxygen to hydrogen got to be close to that of water , it let out the loudest boom you ever heard in a classroom , all with about a pint volume of the gas at the start .

Make no mistake thinking that hydrogen can't generate a violent reaction .

[Mark]

Which is why I said it can explode. But no more violently than petrol can. It doesn't make it into a 'hydrogen bomb'; like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

[schmenke]

What makes hydrogen explosive is the fact that it requires pressurization to provide quantities sufficient for a reasonably long drive in a vehicle.

Petrol does not require pressurization.

[schmenke]

Obviously the above would need an automated machine to remove the "flat" batteries and insert fully-charged ones, but that can't be so hard to design, can it? It could be set into the garage floor; the cars would simply be parked over it, like a maintenance pit.

The logistics of swapping multiple batteries on several hundred vehicles per day is not that easy. Consider:

- Batteries are heavy, which would require complicated hydraulic machinery to remove and install. The energy required to do this would defeat the purpose.

- Batteries are bulky. Storage of both fresh and discarded batteries would require a huge amount of space.

- Batteries contain acidic fluids. The risk of leaks or spillage from several hundred batteries being swapped daily is far greater than the risk of petrol spillage.

- Batteries are not recyclable. Long-term disposal is an issue.

[donKey jote]

Most don't have garages and many live in apartments. Also doesn't solve the range issue for one day trips. Getting people to pay to have all that installed still means decades.

if they have cars, they must park them somewhere...

for day trips they rent a SUV :p

[Corvettian]

What makes hydrogen explosive is the fact that it requires pressurization to provide quantities sufficient for a reasonably long drive in a vehicle.

Petrol does not require pressurization.
Another problem is that the hydrogen molecule is very small, so seals in the fuel system would have to better than even those in LPG systems, for example. Good maintenance would also be vital; no more "nipping up a leak with an adjustable wrench"...!

[Wade91]

aside from the obvious practicability issues, i'm pretty sure the car payments one would owe on one of these cars for years to come would far surpass the money saved on gas which would pretty much defeat the whole purpose

[Rollo]

aside from the obvious practicability issues, i'm pretty sure the car payments one would owe on one of these cars for years to come would far surpass the money saved on gas which would pretty much defeat the whole purpose

Initially the sorts of buyers who get these sort of vehicles, aren't really concerned about saving money but rather getting the "status" they confer. People who buy a Toyota Pius or a Chevy Dolt do so because of the incredible amounts of smug that those cars generate.

I did an analysis for a Fiesta Diesel as opposed to a base model (using Australian prices - and c/km) and found that the break-even date was approximately 8 years and 4 months, at that point the money you'd saved through the economies of diesel would equal the initial outlay.
I'm kind of sure that for both the aforementioned Toyota and Chevy, the break-even date is probably longer than the standard life of the vehicles is question. However, the biggest worry in the lives of the sorts of people who'd buy them, are the couscous falling out of their children's lunchboxes.

[Bagwan]

Then , there's the story of the fifteen year old young man , who bought a Ford ranger pick-up , swapped out the torched gas engine for an electric motor in auto shop , and now drives 25 miles to work every day , now that he's turned 16 , and pays his parents the $15.00 a month for the electrical cost on the home bill .

It's a true story .

[Starter]

It's a true story .
Have you got a link? Not that I think it's impossible, but improbable would be accurate. I'm just wondering how a fifteen year old, in auto shop, could design and fabricate the motor mounts, battery attachments, and bell housing adapter to make it all work. Not to mention the various circuit boards and connections needed to adapt the "gas" pedal to a real world driving environment.

[Jag_Warrior]

Have you got a link? Not that I think it's impossible, but improbable would be accurate. I'm just wondering how a fifteen year old, in auto shop, could design and fabricate the motor mounts, battery attachments, and bell housing adapter to make it all work. Not to mention the various circuit boards and connections needed to adapt the "gas" pedal to a real world driving environment.

He probably learned how to do it on MyFace or SpaceBook. See, I'm down with what the young folks are doing these days. I think what that kid did was pretty dope and whack, Yo!

[Corvettian]

He probably learned how to do it on MyFace or SpaceBook. See, I'm down with what the young folks are doing these days. I think what that kid did was pretty dope and whack, Yo!
Like, totally! :laugh:

[D-Type]

A quick reality check: The world supply of fossil fuels is finite, so we have to do something that is sustainable.

What options are there, if we are still to have cars?

(1) Batteries
Batteries need charging and the electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere: nuclear, hydro, tidal, wind, wave or solar power if we aren't going to have an oil, gas or coal burning power station. On a small scale wood burning may be possible, but the area of forest required wouldn't work on a global scale. Solar cells on the car can help charge the batteries but not fully charge them up.

(2) Hydrogen
Again we will need power stations to manufacture hydrogen by electrolysis. It boils down to which is the easier infrastructure to produce and which cars are easier to manufacture.

(3) Bio fuels
Alcohol or bio-diesel seem the best prospects. Although it is possible to produce a combustible gas from wood or charcoal, but it's less efficient. Taking alcohol first, have we the land to grow sugar cane or sugar beet; then having fermented it into alcohol what fuel can we use to distil it? The crushed sugar cane and beets will provide some biomass butI think we'll need some firewood as well. Bio-diesel needs some oil producing plants, but I don't know which is best - soya beans, rape seed or what? And like alcohol we'll need fuel of some form to provide energy and heat to extract the oil.

(4) Synthesised fuel
They have made petrol from coal but it is not too efficient. And coal is also finite!

(5) Anything else
Not that I can think of.

:confused:

[Bagwan]

A quick reality check: The world supply of fossil fuels is finite, so we have to do something that is sustainable.

What options are there, if we are still to have cars?

(1) Batteries
Batteries need charging and the electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere: nuclear, hydro, tidal, wind, wave or solar power if we aren't going to have an oil, gas or coal burning power station. On a small scale wood burning may be possible, but the area of forest required wouldn't work on a global scale. Solar cells on the car can help charge the batteries but not fully charge them up.

(2) Hydrogen
Again we will need power stations to manufacture hydrogen by electrolysis. It boils down to which is the easier infrastructure to produce and which cars are easier to manufacture.

(3) Bio fuels
Alcohol or bio-diesel seem the best prospects. Although it is possible to produce a combustible gas from wood or charcoal, but it's less efficient. Taking alcohol first, have we the land to grow sugar cane or sugar beet; then having fermented it into alcohol what fuel can we use to distil it? The crushed sugar cane and beets will provide some biomass butI think we'll need some firewood as well. Bio-diesel needs some oil producing plants, but I don't know which is best - soya beans, rape seed or what? And like alcohol we'll need fuel of some form to provide energy and heat to extract the oil.

(4) Synthesised fuel
They have made petrol from coal but it is not too efficient. And coal is also finite!

(5) Anything else
Not that I can think of.

:confused:

Toss in natural gas , or methane , from non-fossil sources .
I've been to sites where they quantify the amount of energy from pretty much any animal's(including our own) manure , and show how many are required to heat a 1500sq/ft house at a specific latitude .

Computing the same for mileage would be simple .

[Rollo]

Alcohol or bio-diesel seem the best prospects. Although it is possible to produce a combustible gas from wood or charcoal, but it's less efficient. Taking alcohol first, have we the land to grow sugar cane or sugar beet; then having fermented it into alcohol what fuel can we use to distill it?

With sugar cane, you can burn the husks of the cane to provide the heat necessary to distill the alcohol. Although what you've more or less described is how a rum factory works.
Okay, the process does release CO2, but it also takes in CO2 in the first place whilst the cane is growing. I'm not sure if cane growing is the most efficient way to produce alcohol, beet sugar might be better but I suppose that someone doing a whole of cycle analysis could work this out.

Bundaberg Rum - Our Home (http://www.bundabergrum.com.au/Our-Home#3)

The problem that any system faces is the law of entropy. No matter which system you choose (alcohols, vegetable oils for diesel or jets), every time you convert from one form of energy to another, you lose some in the process, like taking a walk down a set of stairs.

[Bagwan]

Most of us poop every single day .
And , we have major issues getting rid of it all .

It kills people every day .
If we are looking for a fuel instead of electric , why not solve that problem at the same time .

Don't use the corn( or whatever organic matter) directly to make alcohol . Eat the corn first , then make methane .

Every city has a sewage treatment plant , and that could relatively easily be changed to be a gas producing digester .

Poop is pretty close to an unlimitted resource .

[Corvettian]

Brazil has been using ethanol as an automotive fuel since the 1970s. However, an engine which runs on ethanol is difficult to start at low temperatures, so they add 20 - 25% gasoline, depending on the price of oil and / or sugar. Similarly, Brazilian gasoline has a 20 - 25% ethanol content (which doesn't do 2-stroke carburettors any good, but that's another story).
Sugar cane is the best source of sugar for producing ethanol, since all that is required is to crush the cane to extract the sap. The extraction of sugars from corn requires the use of enzymes, making for a much longer process.

[race aficionado]

Man, a real motor sport thread, and a smart one to boot.
Don't have anything to add now that I know nothing about the topic really but I'm enjoying the read.

[Corvettian]

(3) Bio fuels
Alcohol or bio-diesel seem the best prospects. Although it is possible to produce a combustible gas from wood or charcoal, but it's less efficient. Taking alcohol first, have we the land to grow sugar cane or sugar beet; then having fermented it into alcohol what fuel can we use to distil it? The crushed sugar cane and beets will provide some biomass butI think we'll need some firewood as well. Bio-diesel needs some oil producing plants, but I don't know which is best - soya beans, rape seed or what? And like alcohol we'll need fuel of some form to provide energy and heat to extract the oil.
The Stirling Engine runs on anything, any heat source, but it has virtually been ignored since its invention almost 200 years ago, when development of the steam engine was seen as more important. The advent of the internal combustion engine really pushed the Stirling onto the back burner, so to speak.
At the moment, Stirling Engines are usually used in fixed installations, for producing electricity from burning or decomposing biomass, although some efforts are being made to produce an effective automotive version. It has a low power-to-weight ratio, but the beauty of it is that any heat source will do, whether it be liquid fossil fuel, coal, ethanol, biomass... anything. Rice farmers in Pakistan use them to power their irrigation pumps, by burning rice husks under the engine!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/stirling-engine.htm

[BleAivano]

The Stirling Engine runs on anything, any heat source, but it has virtually been ignored since its invention almost 200 years ago, when development of the steam engine was seen as more important. The advent of the internal combustion engine really pushed the Stirling onto the back burner, so to speak.
At the moment, Stirling Engines are usually used in fixed installations, for producing electricity from burning or decomposing biomass, although some efforts are being made to produce an effective automotive version. It has a low power-to-weight ratio, but the beauty of it is that any heat source will do, whether it be liquid fossil fuel, coal, ethanol, biomass... anything. Rice farmers in Pakistan use them to power their irrigation pumps, by burning rice husks under the engine!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/stirling-engine.htm


You know Swedish Navy submarines are equipped with Stirling engines. air is stored in large tanks
which is used to feed the engine with air while submerged.
Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland-class_submarine)


Regarding the topic, I think there will be different solutions for different areas of the world.
Solar cars definitely have a future in those areas which have a hot, sunny and dry climate.
While other areas like Northern Europe is quite unsuitable for Electric cars.

Hopefully hydrogen cars in combination with fusion power will be the power supply of the future.
The hydrogen based Fusion power provides the power to extract hydrogen from sea water.
This means that there will not be any CO2 pollution.
The advantage of Hydrogen as fuel for cars is that there is a more or less never ending source of it
and when hydrogen is used as fuel in cars it produces H2O which will be released into the atmosphere
where it will condensate and fall back down to the ground as rain which means that it can be re-used as fuel.

[Knock-on]

Funnily enough, there is a Tesla showroom 1 minute from where I am working this week.

I think electric cars have a good story in urban areas where people don't need more than an hour commute. However, for the rest of us, the technology needs to take a quantum leap before mainstream adoption.

I may have a little story to tell about a fun project I'm sort of involved in but later in the year. For now, electric technology needs to be lighter to work as a hybrid but personally I think other green ideas are going to or are emerging that will surpass it.

[Corvettian]

We all talking about "mains-charged" electric vehicles, alternative fuels etc., but what about solar power? Okay, it doesn't work at night, but it is a free energy source, with no environmental impact.
Solar-powered sedan hits Dutch streets | Grist (http://grist.org/news/solar-powered-sedan-hits-dutch-streets/#.Ude_JYZmctY.twitter)

[Mark]

The problem is that there is a finite amount of energy falling on a unit area and that isn't enough to power a car.

Now there is a possibility for desert countries with a lot of hot sunshine to generate electricity - or perhaps hydrogen.

[anthonyvop]

Think about a charging station which would have to change the batteries in cars as often as a gas station pumps a tank of gas (actually more often as cars get at least 300 miles to a tank and electrics maybe 150 average). Think about as many charging stations as there are gas stations. Assuming it worked well, the infrastructure would take decades to put in place.


Elon Muck announced to great fanfare "supercharging stations" which he demonstrates here in a race against the world's slowest gas pump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgk5-eB9oTY


Of course he avoids any mention of storage as Tesla's aren't even close to being numerous. Could you imagine the storage and power generation issues if it was mass marketed?


Then there is this article from an ubber-green source

Unclean at Any Speed - IEEE Spectrum (http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed)


With the idea of "Peak Oil" now a quaint memory and less and less people buying into the global warming ideal, the Internal Combustion Engine isn't going anywhere.

I am a proponent of hydrogen power but that is still a long way off before it can become practical as production and distribution is way to expensive right now.

[Bagwan]

Any new green power has a hard row to hoe .

Here's an example from the small wind industry :
A few years ago , the government in the US decided they would look green and subsidize small turbine manufacturers .
That sounds like a good idea .

However , they elected to subsidize , based on output .

At first , the subsidy inspired a bunch of new start-ups , which sounded good at the time .
However , without regulation on how to measure output , and only a space to fill in a number , new companies in particular began to use methods that would greatly over-estimate that output .
It made for very unhappy customers , who got the incentive price , but got turbines that hadn't been tested in the real world , and had no chance of making rated outputs .

Companies already in the business pushed ahead launch dates to get incentives and lost credibility by selling units that had serious issues as a result of very little beta testing .


Instantly , through incentives , the entire small wind industry lost credibility .

Wind industry experts had predicted as much , and had suggested regulations about how output should be measured , but were duly ignored .

So , essentially , a "green" program screwed an entire industry .
Fora filled with "tits-up" former wind company engineers all sit wondering if it was just a mistake .


Who killed the electric car ?

[Daniel]

I love how people conveniently ignore the fact that one day, perhaps 50, perhaps 100 or perhaps 1000 years down the road, we will run out of oil.

It'll be a crap day when we no longer get to watch F1 cars burning dinosaurs and making lots of noise, personally if the sums added up, I'd get an electric car to commute in. I don't care whether the car I commute in is powered by farts, coal, wind power, hydroelectric power or whatever, as long as it gets me to work then I'm happy.

I simply don't feel any attachment towards burning dead dinosaurs to take me to and from work, I'll always want to have at least one or two dinosaur burning vehicles to drive around for fun, but why do I need to burn dinosaurs to get to work?

Yeah sure, you move the emissions, but cars are NEVER friendly in terms of emissions, if something is battery powered then you can in theory power it from clean sources like nucular, tidal, hydroelectric, wind power, solar power and turd power and the like.

I mentioned battery change stations a few years ago and the unimaginative dullards on here didn't seem to think it was doable, well see below.

Tesla Quick-Charge Stations to Offer Quick Battery Swaps, Too - KickingTires (http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/06/tesla-quick-charge-stations-to-offer-quick-battery-swaps-too.html)

Yes it's infrastructure, but if battery packs were standardised it would be so doable and solves the issue of having to wait hours for a charge.

[Daniel]

I think electric cars have a good story in urban areas where people don't need more than an hour commute. However, for the rest of us, the technology needs to take a quantum leap before mainstream adoption.

and that's how it starts. It becomes suitable for people who commute an hour to work, then it becomes suitable for people who do an hour and a half and so on, until we're at the point where you can drive across Europe in a battery powered vehicle as quickly as you could if you were burning dinosaurs.

I think for some reason there seems to be an inability on the part of people on here to look past the cars that we have now and towards what is possible in the future.

The idea that electric cars are unclean is based on the assumption that we'll still be burning coal in the future or fossil fuels, once that stops happening then the air will be a shedload cleaner and the emissions argument will be a non-issue.

Incidentally there's a small facebook group I'm part of and they were discussing Loeb's record breaking ascent of some hill in the US and someone pointed out that at some point they will stop using ICE's to power the fastest cars up the peak and they will start using battery powered vehicles as the work involved in an engine which produces power at the bottom of the hill as well as the top is immense.

[Corvettian]

I mentioned battery change stations a few years ago and the unimaginative dullards on here didn't seem to think it was doable, well see below.

Tesla Quick-Charge Stations to Offer Quick Battery Swaps, Too - KickingTires (http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/06/tesla-quick-charge-stations-to-offer-quick-battery-swaps-too.html)

Yes it's infrastructure, but if battery packs were standardised it would be so doable and solves the issue of having to wait hours for a charge.
Thank you, Daniel! I didn't know that such a concept already existed; it just seemed like a good idea to me! The infrastructure for ANY new technology will take time to set up; as I said in one of my posts, how long did it take to set up networks of petroleum filling stations, refineries etc.?

[Daniel]

Thank you, Daniel! I didn't know that such a concept already existed; it just seemed like a good idea to me! The infrastructure for ANY new technology will take time to set up; as I said in one of my posts, how long did it take to set up networks of petroleum filling stations, refineries etc.?

I mentioned it years ago http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/127767-top-gear-31.html#post949586

for some reason people don't seem to see it as an option.

[Corvettian]

I mentioned it years ago http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/127767-top-gear-31.html#post949586

for some reason people don't seem to see it as an option.Nice one. :up:
We'll just have to keep talking about it; someone will listen eventually! :laugh:

[Mark]

Actually the only viable future lies in nuclear fusion power. It simply isn't possible to build enough wind turbines, hydro stations or even fission power plants to serve the worlds energy demands.

[airshifter]

Actually the only viable future lies in nuclear fusion power. It simply isn't possible to build enough wind turbines, hydro stations or even fission power plants to serve the worlds energy demands.

Agreed. And until that tech develops further, nuclear fission is the answer. Not only is it more environmentally sound, it's potential is almost limitless. As a side, one of the most effective ways to produce hydrogen with less expense is through heat.... joint nuclear/hydrogen plants are very effective and efficient.

As for transport, I don't see electric making much impact for several decades. For now hybrid is the only way to go IMO. Though electrics can be used for short distances, the time needed for major infrastructure changes, along with the expense, will grossly outweigh the benefit. Combined with the fact that most couldn't use electric as their only source of transportation at current or the in the near future, and electrics are all but dead IMO.

I wouldn't chance being stranded by an electric vehicle due to power outage preventing me from charging, or immediate need to increase my daily miles due to emergency or something of the sort. But I think a lot more people would use a hybrid even if it means that running out of charge requires barely legal speeds running on fossil fuels. That way there is a built in safety margin for emergencies and such.


And I'll also point out that some people have adapted to electric only use now. So if anyone thinks I'm an "unimaginative dullard" for having the above opinion, I'll suggest they bring up that point only when they are on electric only use. Convincing people things are possible is more probable if you are proving it can be done, rather than insulting those that are skeptical. ;)

[Daniel]

Agreed. And until that tech develops further, nuclear fission is the answer. Not only is it more environmentally sound, it's potential is almost limitless. As a side, one of the most effective ways to produce hydrogen with less expense is through heat.... joint nuclear/hydrogen plants are very effective and efficient.

As for transport, I don't see electric making much impact for several decades. For now hybrid is the only way to go IMO. Though electrics can be used for short distances, the time needed for major infrastructure changes, along with the expense, will grossly outweigh the benefit. Combined with the fact that most couldn't use electric as their only source of transportation at current or the in the near future, and electrics are all but dead IMO.

I wouldn't chance being stranded by an electric vehicle due to power outage preventing me from charging, or immediate need to increase my daily miles due to emergency or something of the sort. But I think a lot more people would use a hybrid even if it means that running out of charge requires barely legal speeds running on fossil fuels. That way there is a built in safety margin for emergencies and such.


And I'll also point out that some people have adapted to electric only use now. So if anyone thinks I'm an "unimaginative dullard" for having the above opinion, I'll suggest they bring up that point only when they are on electric only use. Convincing people things are possible is more probable if you are proving it can be done, rather than insulting those that are skeptical. ;)

I am only suggesting that people are unimaginative dullards if they totally discount the idea of battery powered cars without considering that the issues can be solved given enough time and investment in clean energy.

If tomorrow we had battery change facilities then this wouldn't be the issue that it currently is. Obviously it'll take time to clean up energy generation and it'll take time for people to accept nuclear energy, but it really is the only way.

[Daniel]

Actually the only viable future lies in nuclear fusion power. It simply isn't possible to build enough wind turbines, hydro stations or even fission power plants to serve the worlds energy demands.

I don't agree at all. If people would allow it, they could build enough nuclear fission plants, but people don't like the idea of it.....

[anthonyvop]

and that's how it starts. It becomes suitable for people who commute an hour to work, .

the thing is that we have had cars for years that can easily transport people for an hour on battery power.

The main problem is that while most of the time you commute might be an hour what about those days that you have different plans? You are at work in Manhattan and you and your buddies decide to hit the latest hotspot on Long island after work.........You are S.O.L.

For me the other major issue is my money being taken from me to subsidize other businesses like Solyndra, Fisker and Tesla. It is cronyism. And I hate Cronyism.

[airshifter]

I am only suggesting that people are unimaginative dullards if they totally discount the idea of battery powered cars without considering that the issues can be solved given enough time and investment in clean energy.

If tomorrow we had battery change facilities then this wouldn't be the issue that it currently is. Obviously it'll take time to clean up energy generation and it'll take time for people to accept nuclear energy, but it really is the only way.


Given time and investment into clean energy, we could drive nuclear powered cars as well. That's probably not much more myopic than thinking that battery change stations are a viable solution in the long term. With unlimited resources anything is possible, yet the consumer isn't going to make a major change unless those resources come out of someone else's pocket.

I can think of a number of methods to use hybrid power in which the average consumer could "fill their own tank" and it would be less infrastructure dependent than a battery change station. But I don't consider everyone else a dullard for having another view either.

[Daniel]

the thing is that we have had cars for years that can easily transport people for an hour on battery power.

The main problem is that while most of the time you commute might be an hour what about those days that you have different plans? You are at work in Manhattan and you and your buddies decide to hit the latest hotspot on Long island after work.........You are S.O.L.

For me the other major issue is my money being taken from me to subsidize other businesses like Solyndra, Fisker and Tesla. It is cronyism. And I hate Cronyism.

Jesus H Christ! Am I speaking another language here? Battery change station, you drive over the top, your battery gets removed by a robot and 90 seconds or so later you drive off with a battery full of juice.

[Mark]

I don't agree at all. If people would allow it, they could build enough nuclear fission plants, but people don't like the idea of it.....

It's not really about people allowing there to be enough built. It's more that even if there was full acceptance of fission plants we still wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy demand.

[Daniel]

Given time and investment into clean energy, we could drive nuclear powered cars as well. That's probably not much more myopic than thinking that battery change stations are a viable solution in the long term. With unlimited resources anything is possible, yet the consumer isn't going to make a major change unless those resources come out of someone else's pocket.

I can think of a number of methods to use hybrid power in which the average consumer could "fill their own tank" and it would be less infrastructure dependent than a battery change station. But I don't consider everyone else a dullard for having another view either.

The reason I called people unimaginative dullards is that they trot out the same old "What if I want to drive long distances?" arguments and act as if there's no possible solution when there's an obvious and easy solution. Perhaps for a time the solution will be a hybrid with a battery that can be swapped out, then once the infrastructure for switching batteries becomes ubiquitous, then battery only vehicles will become a realistic long distance proposition.

[henners88]

It'll be a crap day when we no longer get to watch F1 cars burning dinosaurs and making lots of noise
That would be crap and hopefully I won't see that in my life time. If they could make an electric F1 that sounded as meaty and offered identical performance, I wouldn't have an issue with going electric. That said I would rather they focus on getting the technology in place for the commercial market rather than using F1 to promote the clean message whilst charging stupid money for hybrid cars etc. The Prius was never as economical as suggested on long fast runs, so there is a fair way to go. All positive stuff though.

[Mark]

That would be crap and hopefully I won't see that in my life time.

I hope I do. There's no reason why electric F1 can't be as exciting as petrol based. In fact electric engines can be far more powerful and have a lot more torque. Maximum torque at zero revs is what the karting guy in Birmingham told us ;)

[Daniel]

It's not really about people allowing there to be enough built. It's more that even if there was full acceptance of fission plants we still wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy demand.

Why?

[henners88]

I hope I do. There's no reason why electric F1 can't be as exciting as petrol based. In fact electric engines can be far more powerful and have a lot more torque. Maximum torque at zero revs is what the karting guy in Birmingham told us ;)
Is there a way to make them sound the same as petrol engines too? I haven't looked into electric car technology recently, but part of the experience of seeing an F1 car go round is the sound it makes too. If this can be achieved, its worth a look.

[Daniel]

That would be crap and hopefully I won't see that in my life time. If they could make an electric F1 that sounded as meaty and offered identical performance, I wouldn't have an issue with going electric. That said I would rather they focus on getting the technology in place for the commercial market rather than using F1 to promote the clean message whilst charging stupid money for hybrid cars etc. The Prius was never as economical as suggested on long fast runs, so there is a fair way to go. All positive stuff though.

Completely agree, that's why if it was viable, I'd happily commute in an electric car. Save the dinosaurs to be burnt for more interesting purposes than commuting.



I hope I do. There's no reason why electric F1 can't be as exciting as petrol based. In fact electric engines can be far more powerful and have a lot more torque. Maximum torque at zero revs is what the karting guy in Birmingham told us ;)

Absolutely disagree. 100% torque from 0 revs removes a lot of the skill involved and would make for poor racing.

[Daniel]

Is there a way to make them sound the same as petrol engines too? I haven't looked into electric car technology recently, but part of the experience of seeing an F1 car go round is the sound it makes too. If this can be achieved, its worth a look.

Electric power would take a big chunk of the skill out of F1 though. Bad starts would be a thing of the past thanks to engines that aren't able to bog down. It would make for far more processional racing than we have now.

[henners88]

Completely agree, that's why if it was viable, I'd happily commute in an electric car. Save the dinosaurs to be burnt for more interesting purposes than commuting.
My daily commute is 80 miles so I'd expect at least 400 miles out of a charge for it to be worth it for me. I'm sure in this day and age its achievable.

[Daniel]

My daily commute is 80 miles so I'd expect at least 400 miles out of a charge for it to be worth it for me. I'm sure in this day and age its achievable.

What if you could get say 200 miles and change your battery in 90 seconds or so without even getting out of the car? I'd happily do that.

[henners88]

Electric power would take a big chunk of the skill out of F1 though. Bad starts would be a thing of the past thanks to engines that aren't able to bog down. It would make for far more processional racing than we have now.
I know it would realistically. I'd rather the technology be put to better use than racing in all honesty as I know F1 would just use it as a gimmick for car manufacturers to charge silly money for electric cars. It would be associated with the pinnacle of motorsport and I don't think that would be ideal at all.

[henners88]

What if you could get say 200 miles and change your battery in 90 seconds or so without even getting out of the car? I'd happily do that.
As long as it didn't cost me more than the 60 quid a week it does now then why not. If I have to charge 2 batteries a week or say 3 if I want juice for the weekend and it suddenly costs me more than I pay now, I wouldn't be interested. I'm not going to get huge satisfaction knowing I'm saving the planet if the cold reality is I'm skint lol.

[SGWilko]

Jesus H Christ! Am I speaking another language here? Battery change station, you drive over the top, your battery gets removed by a robot and 90 seconds or so later you drive off with a battery full of juice.

In theory that is perfect! However, how many battery units do you need to store based upon;

Cars visiting in a day, and
recharge time per battery unit.

This determines how many batteries to store. Just how big does the warehouse need to be to store all those batteries?

Then there is battery lifecycle, they don't last forever and efficiency will start to degrade.

I am sure an answer will be found, but will it be found before fuel rationed to distribution and emergency services?

[Bagwan]

In theory that is perfect! However, how many battery units do you need to store based upon;

Cars visiting in a day, and
recharge time per battery unit.

This determines how many batteries to store. Just how big does the warehouse need to be to store all those batteries?

Then there is battery lifecycle, they don't last forever and efficiency will start to degrade.

I am sure an answer will be found, but will it be found before fuel rationed to distribution and emergency services?

The idea that these electric cars will be "filled" at old style gas stations only is a bit "dinosaur-centric" in itself .
We all don't have gas stations at home , but most of us do have electricity .

The car is on a charging station , an electrical receptacle , at home , and then at work , while you work .
Given a vehicle that has the correct range to get you there , there is little need to have a charging station halfway there , unless an emergency hits .

So , as a commuter vehicle , the electric car is already viable .

A friend of mine imports electric bikes and rickshaws , and , due to the vehicles being so quiet on the road , finds most now have capacity to create a faux engine sound , that can alert pedestrians of the vehicles approach .
Theoretically , they could sound exactly like a Cosworth DFV if you wanted it that way .

[SGWilko]

The idea that these electric cars will be "filled" at old style gas stations only is a bit "dinosaur-centric" in itself .
We all don't have gas stations at home , but most of us do have electricity .

The car is on a charging station , an electrical receptacle , at home , and then at work , while you work .
Given a vehicle that has the correct range to get you there , there is little need to have a charging station halfway there , unless an emergency hits .

So , as a commuter vehicle , the electric car is already viable .

A friend of mine imports electric bikes and rickshaws , and , due to the vehicles being so quiet on the road , finds most now have capacity to create a faux engine sound , that can alert pedestrians of the vehicles approach .
Theoretically , they could sound exactly like a Cosworth DFV if you wanted it that way .

OK - so when I want to take my annual holiday in Scotland - a 7 hour 358 mile Jorney from the 'Garden of England', the trip will take 3 days there and 3 back. No thanks!

[Bagwan]

Electric power would take a big chunk of the skill out of F1 though. Bad starts would be a thing of the past thanks to engines that aren't able to bog down. It would make for far more processional racing than we have now.

Not able to bog down sounds to me like those starts would be exponentially harder , trying to tame all that instant horsepower .
Keeping the tires from lighting up every time you hit the pedal might just be a bigger task than what we have now .

[Bagwan]

OK - so when I want to take my annual holiday in Scotland - a 7 hour 358 mile Jorney from the 'Garden of England', the trip will take 3 days there and 3 back. No thanks!

Well , what if you saved enough by driving to work in that electric vehicle commuting to enable you to make your annual holiday a free trip , perhaps on a train run on electricity ?
Would that be so awful that you'd say "no thanks" ?

[SGWilko]

Well , what if you saved enough by driving to work in that electric vehicle commuting to enable you to make your annual holiday a free trip , perhaps on a train run on electricity ?
Would that be so awful that you'd say "no thanks" ?

That's still an overnight journey. Then I have to get my family and all that luggage from the station to the remote village where the cottage is. Ahat about days out - spend even more on taxi trips? It's just not practical.

I'd much rather have my own oil burner and cruise along the motorway gently at the most economical speed. Up in Scotland, some of the places we visit on a day trip would require a recharge for the electric car.

Electric isn'e there yet, but when it is I'm in!

[Bagwan]

That's still an overnight journey. Then I have to get my family and all that luggage from the station to the remote village where the cottage is. Ahat about days out - spend even more on taxi trips? It's just not practical.

I'd much rather have my own oil burner and cruise along the motorway gently at the most economical speed. Up in Scotland, some of the places we visit on a day trip would require a recharge for the electric car.

Electric isn'e there yet, but when it is I'm in!

You're right that it isn't there yet , but the attitude that it could never work needs to disappear .

Am I correct in thinking that the only fault you see is range ?

This is where the work on both batteries and KERS harvesting in F1 may be of direct benefit to the world .

[SGWilko]

You're right that it isn't there yet , but the attitude that it could never work needs to disappear .

Am I correct in thinking that the only fault you see is range ?

This is where the work on both batteries and KERS harvesting in F1 may be of direct benefit to the world .

Yes. That is the only drawback. A car without emissions, especially if you use renewables to charge overnight and use renewables to power the manufacturing plant, and use re-cycled materials (all very possible) is as near to zero pollution as you can get.

Couple the batteries with a flywheel KERS to get you away at the lights, and you have a winner.

[Mark]

The problem is perception, the fact is that we're going to have to give up the petrol / diesel cars at some point, and it's quite possible they won't be replaced with something which is as good or better so you'll have to be more realistic about your journies. So yes, you may be able to do 200 miles on a charge, but trips in the car hundreds of miles across country aren't going to be an option so you'll have to find another way such as taking the train.

[SGWilko]

The problem is perception, the fact is that we're going to have to give up the petrol / diesel cars at some point, and it's quite possible they won't be replaced with something which is as good or better so you'll have to be more realistic about your journies. So yes, you may be able to do 200 miles on a charge, but trips in the car hundreds of miles across country aren't going to be an option so you'll have to find another way such as taking the train.

This is true. But how will this affect those that moved further away from work hubs in search of cheaper homes. They will have to move closer to work again.......

[Mark]

This is true. But how will this affect those that moved further away from work hubs in search of cheaper homes.

I don't know about that. Let's say you have the theoretical car which can do 200 miles on a single charge. How many have a commute of 200 miles? Not many because that's the best part of 4 hours in the car every day, I've done 200 mile commute a few times and it's not pleasant. Most peoples commutes will be considerably less than that, and well within the range an electric car can provide.

It's just that we've grown accustomed to the cars not only being for going to work, but that once or twice a year cross country trip too.

[Rollo]

OK - so when I want to take my annual holiday in Scotland - a 7 hour 358 mile Jorney from the 'Garden of England', the trip will take 3 days there and 3 back. No thanks!

Sorted: See page 1.


What about if you put giant grooves in motorways, like slot cars; that way all the cars on the motorway could be charged whilst they were all on it, could all be speed regulated and in case of an accident, could all be shut down at once.
During times of low traffic densities, the MoT could turn up the voltage so that instead of 70mph you could all be doing 120 or 130mph, or in bad rain slowed down to 65mph or something.

If Scalextric can work it out multiple cars on the same lane, why not the Highways Agency. Aren't cars supposed to have GPS, Sat-Nav and parky-doovy-thingos anyway?

Since we are pretty well much talking about a whole scale infrastructure set-up, surely that's a logical step? It could be built over a shorter time frame than the existing motorways were built, mainly because electric slots on motorways could be retro fitted to existing motorways. Or connect us all up to overhead wires like trolley buses in San Francisco.

[SGWilko]

Sorted: See page 1.



Since we are pretty well much talking about a whole scale infrastructure set-up, surely that's a logical step? It could be built over a shorter time frame than the existing motorways were built, mainly because electric slots on motorways could be retro fitted to existing motorways. Or connect us all up to overhead wires like trolley buses in San Francisco.

Makes you wonder why we ever did away with the trolley-bus & tram network. Rather shotsighted when you think about it!

[Mark]

Makes you wonder why we ever did away with the trolley-bus & tram network. Rather shotsighted when you think about it!

The trolley buses and trams often dated back to the 1920's or earlier, after the war the country was bankrupt and our infrastructure shot. We couldn't afford the investment to replace the aging trams and trolley buses, and petrol & diesel was cheap and readily available, so it made sense at the time to replace the electric systems with the much more flexible and cheaper oil powered buses.

[Daniel]

As long as it didn't cost me more than the 60 quid a week it does now then why not. If I have to charge 2 batteries a week or say 3 if I want juice for the weekend and it suddenly costs me more than I pay now, I wouldn't be interested. I'm not going to get huge satisfaction knowing I'm saving the planet if the cold reality is I'm skint lol.

Of course :) I very much suspect it'll end up cheaper even when you factor in the cost of a battery replacement every how many years.

[Daniel]

In theory that is perfect! However, how many battery units do you need to store based upon;

Cars visiting in a day, and
recharge time per battery unit.

This determines how many batteries to store. Just how big does the warehouse need to be to store all those batteries?

Then there is battery lifecycle, they don't last forever and efficiency will start to degrade.

I am sure an answer will be found, but will it be found before fuel rationed to distribution and emergency services?

Well, have an upfront charge per year to cover the cost of battery degradation and obviously a charge for how much juice you use.

There's still more than enough oil coming out the ground to keep us going long enough for a workable solution to be found IMHO.

[Daniel]

Sorted: See page 1.



Since we are pretty well much talking about a whole scale infrastructure set-up, surely that's a logical step? It could be built over a shorter time frame than the existing motorways were built, mainly because electric slots on motorways could be retro fitted to existing motorways. Or connect us all up to overhead wires like trolley buses in San Francisco.

How would this work in torrential rain or in heavy snow?

[Daniel]

That's still an overnight journey. Then I have to get my family and all that luggage from the station to the remote village where the cottage is. Ahat about days out - spend even more on taxi trips? It's just not practical.

I'd much rather have my own oil burner and cruise along the motorway gently at the most economical speed. Up in Scotland, some of the places we visit on a day trip would require a recharge for the electric car.

Electric isn'e there yet, but when it is I'm in!

Same here.


Not able to bog down sounds to me like those starts would be exponentially harder , trying to tame all that instant horsepower .
Keeping the tires from lighting up every time you hit the pedal might just be a bigger task than what we have now .

They could easily have a starting map which limits the amount of torque the engine delivers, modern cars are still traction limited on starts also.

[Mark]

Same here.



They could easily have a starting map which limits the amount of torque the engine delivers, modern cars are still traction limited on starts also.

You're talking about Formula 1? Driver skill might be required, I know the current crop of drivers don't have any of that so we might have to get new ones ;)

[Daniel]

You're talking about Formula 1? Driver skill might be required, I know the current crop of drivers don't have any of that so we might have to get new ones ;)

I was saying that electric F1 cars would require less skill.

[SGWilko]

I was saying that electric F1 cars would require less skill.

You'd just need a Scalextric controller.......

[Bagwan]

The trolley buses and trams often dated back to the 1920's or earlier, after the war the country was bankrupt and our infrastructure shot. We couldn't afford the investment to replace the aging trams and trolley buses, and petrol & diesel was cheap and readily available, so it made sense at the time to replace the electric systems with the much more flexible and cheaper oil powered buses.

In North America , GM teamed up with Standard and another oil company , to buy out most of the electric tram systems , replacing them with diesel bus .
Some of the same guys responsible for the depression took the reins and provided themselves with a steady income .

[Bagwan]

Same here.



They could easily have a starting map which limits the amount of torque the engine delivers, modern cars are still traction limited on starts also.

I was , of course , speaking of F1 , where traction control is not allowed .

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't necessarily be that different for an electric motor .

[Starter]

In North America , GM teamed up with Standard and another oil company , to buy out most of the electric tram systems , replacing them with diesel bus .
Some of the same guys responsible for the depression took the reins and provided themselves with a steady income .
True, but most people never knew that.

On some of the other points:
Changing batteries - I really doubt that is a viable option. A charging station (essentially the equivalent of every gas station) would have to store and recharge hundreds of batteries per day. At 1000 lbs per battery pack how many bays can be built to change them at the station? What happens when four or five vehicles come in at once? It wouldn't be any 90 second swap. The cost to build those places has to be borne by whom?
Range - For cities, fine. Anywhere else, not so much. Especially for places like the US and Canada with so much open space between cities.
Cost - Electric vehicles themselves are on a par with conventional autos in basic cost. It's all the infrastructure that will be required that will cost billions of dollars (or more). Once again, who pays? And how are you going to force them to pay. Until the cost and inconvenience of gas/diesel rises above that of going electric, it's going to be a non starter.
Public transit - The die has been cast there. Society and civilization as we know it opted long ago for the dispersal allowed by fossil powered vehicles. It would require a dramatic change, and cost, to society to revert to a centralized economy. Not to mention the population pressures for expanded living space. As you go further out from central population centers, the square miles involved increase by huge amounts that will need to be covered by some mass transit system. How far are you willing to walk to get to the tram which will take you to work or the grocery store?

I personally think that hydrogen is going to be the best and most practical solution for vehicle power. That's still a ways away though.

[Daniel]

I was , of course , speaking of F1 , where traction control is not allowed .

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't necessarily be that different for an electric motor .

Difference between traction control and a map though ;)

Lets say the tyres can only handle x amount of torque at the start, then you program the map so that 100% throttle is x + 10% of something and the map can be switched off at the push of a button once the driver is no longer traction limited. Different to traction control ;)

[Robinho]

Why would a charging station have to store so many batteries? As cars could be charged elsewhere the battery change should not be required in all cases, and we seem to be assuming that the chrging station isn't recharging the spent batteries. If they can fully charge in a couple of hours, or less with the right feed, then the spent batteries are always being replenished so you don't require a large stock of fully charged and a store of spent

Sent from North Korea using the dark network

[Daniel]

Why would a charging station have to store so many batteries? As cars could be charged elsewhere the battery change should not be required in all cases, and we seem to be assuming that the chrging station isn't recharging the spent batteries. If they can fully charge in a couple of hours, or less with the right feed, then the spent batteries are always being replenished so you don't require a large stock of fully charged and a store of spent

Sent from North Korea using the dark network

Exactly, plus if electric cars were more commonplace, you'd park up at the motorway services and be able to plug into a high powered charge point and be able to pop a good bit of extra juice into your battery whilst you're in the pub -> Wetherspoons To Open Motorway Services Pub (http://news.sky.com/story/1098973/wetherspoons-to-open-motorway-services-pub)

[Daniel]

Tesla Model S - Battery Swap HD Official - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY)

[Corvettian]

The trolley buses and trams often dated back to the 1920's or earlier, after the war the country was bankrupt and our infrastructure shot. We couldn't afford the investment to replace the aging trams and trolley buses, and petrol & diesel was cheap and readily available, so it made sense at the time to replace the electric systems with the much more flexible and cheaper oil powered buses.
Trolleybuses are beginning to make a comeback, as a result of "environmental concerns". The European Union, for example, is promoting them, as well as electric public transport as a whole.

[Corvettian]

How would this work in torrential rain or in heavy snow?

How well does anything work in torrential rain or heavy snow...?

[Rollo]

How would this work in torrential rain or in heavy snow?

Those sorts of issues like drainage underneath the slot would be built into the roadway. As far as I'm aware, modern roads already have drains to channel water away.
Railways seem to work in rain and snow and the transmission of electricity seems to work in cold weather as well.

[Starter]

Those sorts of issues like drainage underneath the slot would be built into the roadway. As far as I'm aware, modern roads already have drains to channel water away.
Yes they do. On the sides of the road. You'll have to dig up the center of each lane to build that slot. That'll be fun while the road is still in use by regular cars.


Railways seem to work in rain and snow and the transmission of electricity seems to work in cold weather as well.
Railways don't run on a solid surface, so drainage is already built in. I'd also be interested to know how you'd plan on keeping the cars lined up on that slot. Or are we now talking about cars on autopilot with no human behind the wheel?

[Mark]

Trolleybuses are beginning to make a comeback, as a result of "environmental concerns". The European Union, for example, is promoting them, as well as electric public transport as a whole.

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

[Knock-on]

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

Zurich is a very pleasant place to be. The Tram network is extensive, regular and punctual. I was able to commute from the Airport to the opposite side of the city in about 30 mins.

What I like about Zurich is that the centre has very few cars because it just doesn't make any sense. Would be great if this happened in UK cities.

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.

[Starter]

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.
This is the issue we have in the US and most of Canada and one of the main reasons I don't think we'll see electric vehicles in large use any time soon.

[airshifter]

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.

I know that recently there have been some major breakthroughs with hydrogen fuel cells, but not sure if the methods for filling and use are in line yet. But I do agree that at this point some type of hybrid is most likely the answer. Without some type of emergency reserve power on board most people won't move to electric any time soon. I'd guess that until electrics reach a reliable range of 500-600 miles most won't even really strongly consider them.

I'm surprised nobody has made a hybrid which is essentially an electric with a generator that only charges the battery. Fixed RPM generators can be very efficient, especially diesel, propane and natural gas units.

[Mark]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

[airshifter]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

Most larger US based cars have a lesser range as well. My concern is that without a "leave right now" reserve on hand people won't take electrics seriously. Say you have an emergency that requires a tip of 300 miles. In a petrol based car you can top off and go. Being that I don't see the battery change stations being a viable solution, having reserve capacity (regardless of power source) would be a must for me personally.

There are alternatives now in hybrids that plug in, but they rely mostly on the petrol in extended range modes, so that really isn't saving much fossil fuel.

[SGWilko]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

Many people don't really care about efficiency if they do not have to think about the cost.

I've got a relatively new 1.8 TDCi which I regularly get 500 miles to a tank, an extra 150 miles if there is no short jourey driving.

But then to me cost and efficiency is everything when burning fossil fuels is concerned. The hired Mercedes B Class we had in Italy in May I scored 95% on the efficiency driving thingy on the trip computer!

[airshifter]

Many people don't really care about efficiency if they do not have to think about the cost.

I've got a relatively new 1.8 TDCi which I regularly get 500 miles to a tank, an extra 150 miles if there is no short jourey driving.

But then to me cost and efficiency is everything when burning fossil fuels is concerned. The hired Mercedes B Class we had in Italy in May I scored 95% on the efficiency driving thingy on the trip computer!

I track MPG on a spreadsheet, as well as cost per mile. It helps put into perspective the waste of not combining trips and such, as well as help keep track if the vehicles are in a good state of tune. I also log fill brand, to find the best "bang for the buck" in fuel return. I did this even when I was compensated for gas, and used a company car.

We are guilty of taking the larger vehicle when not really needed, but when my family is involved the safety factor overcomes the fuel economy factor for me.

[Malbec]

Those sorts of issues like drainage underneath the slot would be built into the roadway. As far as I'm aware, modern roads already have drains to channel water away.
Railways seem to work in rain and snow and the transmission of electricity seems to work in cold weather as well.

As has already been mentioned railway tracks used to conduct electricity protrude upwards from the underlying ground. A slot would presumably be at the level of or below the road surface.

If water builds up due to torrential rain how would you prevent a) a short circuit and b) people/animals also standing in the water from being electrocuted?

I don't believe electric cars will be THE solution, but nor do I believe that there will be a single universal future solution.

I accept that electric cars don't cut down overall pollution unless electric power is nuclear or wind/water generated, however this isn't the full picture. Even in countries that generate electricity via coal and other dirty sources electric cars shift the source of pollution outside population centres to less harmful areas. Also it cuts down on petrol imports which has a big impact on trade balances and political/strategic concerns given the area from which most oil comes from.

People talk about what makes sense but that can be altered by incentives. Hybrids and electric cars are popular in London because there is a clear financial incentive, no congestion charge. This skews cost/benefit ratios in favour of them. I can see pure electric cars making sense for many governments around the world like Israel or city states like Singapore where long distance travel is non-existent because of the small state area and where the need to cut petrol imports is high. These places can make electric cars make sense for most people by subsidies and penalties for other types of engine if they feel the need. Market forces will take care of the rest, providing an infrastructure for electric vehicles in those places that incentivise them.

That said there are plenty of options available, petrol engines still have a long way to go especially with hybrids and fuel cell vehicles will IMO be one of the most popular options. I also think that with most people in the future living in urban areas worldwide it will be quite normal to have two types of vehicle in a household, a small urban vehicle which may well be electric and short-ranged with a bigger long distance vehicle for rural or inter-city trips. Many households have already adopted a similar model anyway.

[donKey jote]

Electric is feasible for cities, and would make a massive impact on air quality and noise pollution. All you'd need is a few inductive charging areas to top up wherever you park.
I hope to get my first in a couple of years... I'm tempted already but they're still a bit too expensive for the priviledge of being a beta-tester.
Plus they don't sell Teslas in Europe.. :bandit:

[Bagwan]

Electric is feasible for cities, and would make a massive impact on air quality and noise pollution. All you'd need is a few inductive charging areas to top up wherever you park.
I hope to get my first in a couple of years... I'm tempted already but they're still a bit too expensive for the priviledge of being a beta-tester.
Plus they don't sell Teslas in Europe.. :bandit:

Here , we can get a kit to transfer from "dinosaur" to electric on a number of platforms for around $7,000.00 .
And , they've been doing the swap outs for about 20 years , so , beta testing maybe isn't such an issue .

Just grab a wee car with a pooched motor for a song , and stuff an electric kit into it .

Then you can sneak up on people , and make your getaway quietly .

[Starter]

Electric is feasible for cities, and would make a massive impact on air quality and noise pollution. All you'd need is a few inductive charging areas to top up wherever you park.
I hope to get my first in a couple of years... I'm tempted already but they're still a bit too expensive for the priviledge of being a beta-tester.
Plus they don't sell Teslas in Europe.. :bandit:
Correct except for the highlighted part. Substitute "many" for "few" and you're good to go.
Don't forget that in cold weather real world experience shows that miles between charges falls by half or more.

[Mark]

There is also the issue that power is needed to heat the interior of the car in winter. Something which comes for 'free' with oil powered vehicles.

[airshifter]

Nothing is free....close but not free. MPG will suffer some in the winter due to creating heat.

[Mark]

How so? The engine needs cooling and so dumping part of the excess heat into the cabin is for free? Fine you need to run the fans etc

[Daniel]

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.

Oh come on, it's not that hard to imagine that manufacturers will standardise battery sizes so that you have maybe 3 or 4 sizes of batteries in cars. They will have to standardise things otherwise no one will ever buy an electric car. Your point about legacy batteries is an interesting one, it is a pity that old cars can't use new lead acid batteries, it's an absolute pain to get a battery for Caroline's L reg Legacy, oh wait, no it's not! Batteries are standardised and it's bloody easy :rotflmao:

KERS is a given of course, it would be silly to expend energy and not be able to get it back.

The idea of a car that is powered partly by solar is an absolute joke, it only works for those cars they race across Australia because they're light, carry one person, run on LRR bike tyres (they'll be grippy in the corners with 5 people in them!!!!) are essentially a big solar panel with wheels and aren't much use as a car. There simply isn't the energy density in solar energy to power a conventional type car. The best solar will ever do is power the climate control, radio and so on and perhaps extend the range of a car a little bit when it's sunny.

[Daniel]

Many people don't really care about efficiency if they do not have to think about the cost.

I've got a relatively new 1.8 TDCi which I regularly get 500 miles to a tank, an extra 150 miles if there is no short jourey driving.

But then to me cost and efficiency is everything when burning fossil fuels is concerned. The hired Mercedes B Class we had in Italy in May I scored 95% on the efficiency driving thingy on the trip computer!

We used the one in the 500 when we got it, I stopped using it when it scored Caroline higher on the same run as me despite her getting 5mpg less according to the stupid eco system.....

[Daniel]

I track MPG on a spreadsheet, as well as cost per mile. It helps put into perspective the waste of not combining trips and such, as well as help keep track if the vehicles are in a good state of tune. I also log fill brand, to find the best "bang for the buck" in fuel return. I did this even when I was compensated for gas, and used a company car.

We are guilty of taking the larger vehicle when not really needed, but when my family is involved the safety factor overcomes the fuel economy factor for me.

Have you tried using http://www.fuelly.com ? :)

[Daniel]

Not many people in the UK have cars which can go 500-600 miles on a single tank, the likes of my car as a 10 gallon (UK) tank. So even doing a good 50MPG and using every last drop of diesel I'd only get 500 miles. Realistically I'm refueling after 300-350 miles.

I would argue that most people have a car that can do that, they just can't drive it (or choose not to drive) in such a way that they get that range. On a long run, if I keep it at 55-60 miles then I can easily get 500+ miles out of my 9 and a bit UK gallon tank. The government raising the speed limit by 10 miles is going to completely stuff the range of most cars when they get driven 10mph faster.

[driveace]

Is there any truth in the fact that all the large fuel companies are buying up all the second hand electric cars that come onto the market to limit the amount on the market,and so that they still control the market as fuel suppliers?

[driveace]

I would argue that most people have a car that can do that, they just can't drive it (or choose not to drive) in such a way that they get that range. On a long run, if I keep it at 55-60 miles then I can easily get 500+ miles out of my 9 and a bit UK gallon tank. The government raising the speed limit by 10 miles is going to completely stuff the range of most cars when they get driven 10mph faster.
My new C class Merc has a published MPG of 68.8 MPG at a constant 80 MPH ! I asked why at 80MPH when we have a 70MPH speed limit in the uK .They said well usually the speed limit on most German roads is 80MPH !s that true ?

[Daniel]

Is there any truth in the fact that all the large fuel companies are buying up all the second hand electric cars that come onto the market to limit the amount on the market,and so that they still control the market as fuel suppliers?

Nah, it's the illuminati doing that :)
Kanye West "Power": The Occult Meaning of its Symbols - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHu9wChQf8)

[Daniel]

My new C class Merc has a published MPG of 68.8 MPG at a constant 80 MPH ! I asked why at 80MPH when we have a 70MPH speed limit in the uK .They said well usually the speed limit on most German roads is 80MPH !s that true ?

TBH anything that comes out of the mouth of a salesperson in a dealership is a lie.

[Starter]

Is there any truth in the fact that all the large fuel companies are buying up all the second hand electric cars that come onto the market to limit the amount on the market,and so that they still control the market as fuel suppliers?
Hadn't heard that. Also doubt it.

[Daniel]

Hadn't heard that. Also doubt it.

Just thinking, surely if they were doing this then it would push values of battery powered cars up, put more money into the pockets of former owners who are then more likely to go and buy more electric cars.

[airshifter]

How so? The engine needs cooling and so dumping part of the excess heat into the cabin is for free? Fine you need to run the fans etc

Once up to temp heat is essentially free, but the initial warm up period will be lengthened by using the heat to help defrost and such. If you track mileage watch how the winter MPG dives, all of that is extended warm up time when the car is often in open loop and running rich.


Oh come on, it's not that hard to imagine that manufacturers will standardise battery sizes so that you have maybe 3 or 4 sizes of batteries in cars. They will have to standardise things otherwise no one will ever buy an electric car. Your point about legacy batteries is an interesting one, it is a pity that old cars can't use new lead acid batteries, it's an absolute pain to get a battery for Caroline's L reg Legacy, oh wait, no it's not! Batteries are standardised and it's bloody easy :rotflmao:



But you are talking about small batteries, with only a couple variations in technology. I would expect that the batteries in any electric powered car will evolve for decades. So not only would you have sizing issues, you would have type issues to deal with.

Let's face it.. all cell phones could use standardized battery types too. We see how well that has worked.


Have you tried using www.fuelly.com (http://www.fuelly.com) ? :)

Have to grab it one of these days. The one car I use has oversized tires, and even though the error is small I account for it on the spreadsheet. I also track maintenance and such on it, but I'm sure Fuelly or something similar would probably do all I need it to do.

[Robinho]

I'm surprised nobody has made a hybrid which is essentially an electric with a generator that only charges the battery. Fixed RPM generators can be very efficient, especially diesel, propane and natural gas units.

I believe they have, I'm am sure there is at least one, possibly several, cars on the market with this technology. I think the Fisker may be one of them.

[Daniel]

Once up to temp heat is essentially free, but the initial warm up period will be lengthened by using the heat to help defrost and such. If you track mileage watch how the winter MPG dives, all of that is extended warm up time when the car is often in open loop and running rich.



But you are talking about small batteries, with only a couple variations in technology. I would expect that the batteries in any electric powered car will evolve for decades. So not only would you have sizing issues, you would have type issues to deal with.

Let's face it.. all cell phones could use standardized battery types too. We see how well that has worked.



Have to grab it one of these days. The one car I use has oversized tires, and even though the error is small I account for it on the spreadsheet. I also track maintenance and such on it, but I'm sure Fuelly or something similar would probably do all I need it to do.

With regards to the first bit of your post, this is why I never leave my car to idle in the morning during the winter when I need to deice, so little heat is being generated by the engine and so much being lost to the environment that it takes ages to warm the car up and you just end up with crap fuel economy and premature engine wear.

With regards to batteries, obviously technology will change and if there were battery change stations then you'd never end up with the same battery. The batteries would only be good for a certain amount of charge cycles anyway so I doubt that a large number batteries would ever be in the system for long enough for this to ever become an issue, but it's a good point nonetheless. There would obviously have to be some fair way of billing people for the amount of energy they receive and use.

You should raise the over sized tyres issue with fuelly, they're very flexible and I imagine that oversized tyre functionality would be a doddle to add.

[Daniel]

I'm actually just discussing something similar in a facebook group I'm part of..... someone mentioned hydrogen and it got me thinking.

As most may know, I don't actually believe that we know for sure whether we're causing global warming, we've studied the climate for such a short period relative to how long it's been around.

But water vapour is apparently a far more potent greenhouse gas and this is the only thing that hydrogen powered cars emit, do we actually risk making global warming worse (if we're actually able to influence the climate of the planet that is)?

Hydrogen production uses a buttload of electricity (just like electric cars!) so if the source of the electricity is still coal or gas or oil, then it's still dirty.

Hydrogen also requires water for production, not an issue in Britain perhaps, but what about in places like Australia where water is a scarce resource? You have to build desalinisation plants which themselves consume vast amounts of energy, this gives you water, which with the addition of buttloads more electricity, provides you with hydrogen. What if the country you're in doesn't have access to a coastline and has limited water supply?

Transport, transporting electricity is a very safe and fairly cheap thing, you build powerlines and that's it. With hydrogen you'd have to move it around with trucks which is yet more energy consumption.....

I think Hydrogen has so many more barriers to becoming a feasible way of powering cars the world over than battery power does.

The only issues with battery power at the moment are energy density, lack of battery change stations and the lack of enough power generation to make it viable (still an issue for hydrogen, perhaps even moreso!!!!). Energy density is being worked on, battery change stations can be done, they're just not out there and if we slaughter all the NIMBY's then the current power generation capacity that we have would probably suffice.

[donKey jote]

My new C class Merc has a published MPG of 68.8 MPG at a constant 80 MPH ! I asked why at 80MPH when we have a 70MPH speed limit in the uK .They said well usually the speed limit on most German roads is 80MPH !s that true ?

no, 80mph/130kph is the "Richtgeschwindigkeit"/recommended speed on the unlimited Autobahns though :)

[donKey jote]

Correct except for the highlighted part. Substitute "many" for "few" and you're good to go.
Don't forget that in cold weather real world experience shows that miles between charges falls by half or more.

For Starters ( :p ) , only a "few" would be needed as there won't be very "many" cars :andrea:
They already have some induction loading spots as a tech-showcase in Berlin.

I'm well aware of the battery performance in Winter... I've tested the effect of different tyres on energy consumption at our tracks and have had plenty of experience recharging the stoopid thing between sets. :laugh:
In harsh Winter conditions, and current technology, I'd just revert to petrol and leave the e-car at home rather than spend my 48km commute watching the load decrease. Still fine for nipping around the city though :bandit:

[Starter]

With regards to batteries, obviously technology will change and if there were battery change stations then you'd never end up with the same battery. The batteries would only be good for a certain amount of charge cycles anyway so I doubt that a large number batteries would ever be in the system for long enough for this to ever become an issue, but it's a good point nonetheless. There would obviously have to be some fair way of billing people for the amount of energy they receive and use.
You're right about the batteries. I don't imagine there would ever be more than two or, at most, three generations of battery types in general service at the same time. The cars themselves are a different matter though. Those cars would last much longer than IC cars as there are no engines or trannies to repair from wear. Even today, there are many older cars on the road which, in an electric world, would have batteries more than two or three generations old.

[Starter]

For Starters ( :p )
Good one. :D
Had a good chuckle. Always wondered why, after all the years on here, no one picked up that possible opening,

[Daniel]

You're right about the batteries. I don't imagine there would ever be more than two or, at most, three generations of battery types in general service at the same time. The cars themselves are a different matter though. Those cars would last much longer than IC cars as there are no engines or trannies to repair from wear. Even today, there are many older cars on the road which, in an electric world, would have batteries more than two or three generations old.

I don't necessarily see why this is an issue? It's like different grades of fuel, a high performance car will do better on high octane fuel, but it can still run on lower octane fuel and retard the ignition.

[veeten]

I believe they have, I'm am sure there is at least one, possibly several, cars on the market with this technology. I think the Fisker may be one of them. the other one is the Chevrolet Volt, which has an engine that is utilized as an on-board charging unit. This allows for a longer range than plug-in electrics.

[airshifter]

the other one is the Chevrolet Volt, which has an engine that is utilized as an on-board charging unit. This allows for a longer range than plug-in electrics.

The volt uses the ICE under certain conditions to transmit power to the drivetrain as well as the battery. Under most conditions it doesn't, and is close to what I was thinking about.

I wasn't aware the Fisker worked that way... have to do some digging.

[SGWilko]

Knowing how battery performance degrades as temperature drops, what do the likes of Boeing (fizzing and smoking excepted) and AirBus do to with their batteries when flying at altitude and non cabin areas reach subzero temps?

[schmenke]

Electrical systems on commercial airplanes are powered by the APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) which is essentially a small gas turbine engine. The APU also provides power to the main engines for startup. The APU itself is started by a battery but generally when on the airplane is on the ground. Otherwise the battery serves no real purpose at altitude.

[henners88]

Electric auto-mobiles certainly have a future I think. They will cut down the daily emission levels in our atmospheres, but in the UK for instance, most of our electric power comes from power sources burning fossil fuels. We really need to tackle our power problems here and its something the government have been attempting to control since way before my birth. What is the carbon foot print of increasing energy usage in comparison to fuel burnt in cars? I don't know the answer to that question. It would be interesting to find out and explore whether turning our transport electric sooner rather than later is a viable option.

In other news we have Greenpeace protesters climbing the Shard in the City of London today, in protest at Shell moving into the artic to drill for oil. We are looking for more ways to extract oil from strange places and as has been said, one day it will run dry. I suppose the question is, do we look after ourselves or the future generations? :)

[Starter]

Electrical systems on commercial airplanes are powered by the APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) which is essentially a small gas turbine engine. The APU also provides power to the main engines for startup. The APU itself is started by a battery but generally when on the airplane is on the ground. Otherwise the battery serves no real purpose at altitude.
Not to mention that much, if not all, of the cargo area remains pressurized and heated. That's why people can check pet carriers as part of their luggage.

[Mark]

Starter! Is one component electric cars don't need.

[donKey jote]

Chevrolet Volt

and the Opel Ampera ;) :andrea:

[DrewWolfe]

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

Zurich is a very pleasant place to be. The Tram network is extensive, regular and punctual. I was able to commute from the Airport to the opposite side of the city in about 30 mins.

What I like about Zurich is that the centre has very few cars because it just doesn't make any sense. Would be great if this happened in UK cities.

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. Solar, KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.
Electric car is still a dream for real world.. These cars are not much efficient and fuel is the major problem.. I hope there will be more development and electric cars will be be available for daily usage.

[555-04Q2]

Electric cars = pointless.

[DrewWolfe]

I'm sure in many places they didn't go away. In Zurich for example, as well as a dense tram network they also have trolley buses which go right out into the suburbs - they do have diesel buses too. But it means in the city centre there are very few oil burning vehicles, and it's a nicer place to be as a result.

Zurich is a very pleasant place to be. The Tram network is extensive, regular and punctual. I was able to commute from the Airport to the opposite side of the city in about 30 mins.

What I like about Zurich is that the centre has very few cars because it just doesn't make any sense. Would be great if this happened in UK cities.

The problem we have in the UK is that the we have a different transport model. Most European Cities have a commercial centre surrounded by housing which is serviced by a good public transport network. The UK is much more fragmented and people commute across areas more.

For me, unless I worked in the centre of London, it would be impractical to use public transport. Even if I worked 20 miles way in Basingstoke, it would cost more and take longer than using a car and I live on one of the busiest train lines in the Country and Basingstoke is a major Town nearby.

Anyway, Electric cars. As I have said, they are not at all viable on their own at this time. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking with the manufacturers about including more complimentary technologies. solar kits (http://www.shinesolar.net), KERS etc and at least another type of power generation source. Electric on it's own is too restrictive and battery swap out stations wont work. You would have to get buy-in from all manufacturers to standardise battery terminals and that wont happen. It will also mean, even with standard size and terminals, that swap out stations would have to hold a massive stock of legacy batteries as new ones come out each month. After all, if you have a nice new 2021 year Tesla with super doper, long life, high power battery and it gets swapped at the first station for a crappy 2014 battery that's knackered, has restricted power output, takes 10x longer to recharge and lasts a fraction of the time when used, would you be happy? So, what are you going to do?

Just wont work.

So, electric car + solar + Energy Recovery + additional power source that can be refilled will work. For me, with the current and emerging technology is Hydrogen electric generation to power the electric motor and batteries and can easily be dispensed with minimal investment from existing fuel stations.
Electric car is still a dream for real world.. These cars are not much efficient and fuel is the major problem.. I hope there will be more development and electric cars will be be available for daily usage.

[Bagwan]

Electric cars = pointless.

At this point , we already have them .
Apart from the fact that most are charged by fossils , they get you where you want to go .

So , there is a point .
They can be charged by the sun or wind to get rid of those fossils , but there doesn't seem the will to be green , with no effective carbon output .

Not to pick on you , 555 , but I find it all a little sad that that isn't enough to be attractive for people .
If enough people were attracted , we might find that the battery technology would improve dramatically .
It's the batteries that are the Achilles heel in the whole thing .
As far as I know , the Volt and others all run on the old lead-acid combo , which certainly has it's limits .

The Tesla runs , if I'm correct , a lithium battery set-up which has much more promise , however , it is a bank of re-purposed cell phone batteries .

Sadly also , though , is the fact that we'll not likely get anything practical from the major car companies , and likely need it to come from a renegade like Tesla , because the big guys are so tied in to the fossils .
It simply sounds suspicious to me that no battery maker has developed a lithium car battery , given that there certainly seems to be a demand for it .
Even if it was only Tesla who was asking for it , wouldn't it be a great way to show off your new product , ready to drop into all the cars that currently run zero emissions with lead-acid , but capable of crushing fossil supercars off the line ?

I'm betting the Chinese could be the answer .
They've changed the world of solar power to a huge extent in the last few years .
Panels only ten years ago selling for $10.00/watt now go for $.85/watt , as I just saw this week in an ad from Trina Solar , a company from China with it's name on the Lotus car in F1 .

Go China go . We need a new generation of batteries to replace this lead acid stuff .

[D-Type]

They've been trying for as long as I can remember (50 years or so) and long before that to develop a rechageable battery with a good power capacity to weight ratio and relatively low cost. Lead/acid is relatively inexpensive but its weighty. Nickel/cadmium are lighter but far more costly. And any of the 'new' types are just so costly.
Until they crack the battery issue - and I doubt they will as the laws of physics and chemistry are what they are - the electic car will never be viable other than as a short distance commuter car. Even half of a hybrid is dependant on accumulators

[airshifter]

Electric cars = pointless.

At this point , we already have them .
Apart from the fact that most are charged by fossils , they get you where you want to go .

So , there is a point .
They can be charged by the sun or wind to get rid of those fossils , but there doesn't seem the will to be green , with no effective carbon output .

Not to pick on you , 555 , but I find it all a little sad that that isn't enough to be attractive for people .
If enough people were attracted , we might find that the battery technology would improve dramatically .
It's the batteries that are the Achilles heel in the whole thing .
As far as I know , the Volt and others all run on the old lead-acid combo , which certainly has it's limits .

The Tesla runs , if I'm correct , a lithium battery set-up which has much more promise , however , it is a bank of re-purposed cell phone batteries .

Sadly also , though , is the fact that we'll not likely get anything practical from the major car companies , and likely need it to come from a renegade like Tesla , because the big guys are so tied in to the fossils .
It simply sounds suspicious to me that no battery maker has developed a lithium car battery , given that there certainly seems to be a demand for it .
Even if it was only Tesla who was asking for it , wouldn't it be a great way to show off your new product , ready to drop into all the cars that currently run zero emissions with lead-acid , but capable of crushing fossil supercars off the line ?

I'm betting the Chinese could be the answer .
They've changed the world of solar power to a huge extent in the last few years .
Panels only ten years ago selling for $10.00/watt now go for $.85/watt , as I just saw this week in an ad from Trina Solar , a company from China with it's name on the Lotus car in F1 .

Go China go . We need a new generation of batteries to replace this lead acid stuff .

Though I completely agree on the no emissions as the target for the end game, there are major advantages to using electric, even when most of the world is still scared of nukes, and we don't have enough solar or wind to provide the major electric grids with sustainable power.

Since you mentioned Tesla, I'll give an example based on information on that car. The Tesla Model S is a big well loaded sedan, and it hauls butt too. Taking the M5 as the first large sedan with great performance that comes to mind, lets look at some numbers. The BMW is quicker, and no doubt handles better. It also cost a good deal more to buy. And it gets about 18-19 combined MPG on a good day. The Tesla operates for about 6 cents a mile, equal to about 45 miles per gallon based on my local gas prices here in the US, currently from $3.00 - $3.50 a gallon.

So it's about twice as efficient in terms of emissions right? Well no.... it's a great deal better than that. Even a large diesel generator such as used in a big office building, will generate electricity on a much more efficient scale than any readily available car will make use of it's fuel. And such generators are among the least efficient in terms of output on both the fuel and emissions fronts as compared to propane, natural gas, ethanol or coal powered generation of electricity. Solar, wind, or nuke power ups the efficiency that much more with almost nothing in total emissions.

So given those two similar cars, even sourcing electricity from the least efficient sources would likely show the Tesla to be more on the scale of 3 to 4 times more efficient when you factor both cost and emissions.


Now don't get me wrong, I don't see electrics gaining much market share in real terms. They will grow in leaps and bounds in coming years as far as sales increases, but the overall market share will remain very, very small IMO. But if we can keep making ground on electrics and generating sources, and then add the newer techs such as hydrogen (2 or 3 major auto makers releasing in the next year or two) then we also have the tech for hybrids much more efficient than we have now. I suspect that when the price points come down some and the average person can afford one and have the ability to take a long trip on fossil fuels when needed, they will increase quickly in popularity. There is a site for the Chevy Volt cars, and a very high percentage of owners using the site rely very little on the ICE ever being used. It's just insurance for them should they need it.



As for the Chinese, hopefully they will make the rest of us those really cheap solar panels before they get too much farther into their nuke programs. They are investing huge amounts of money into more efficient and less toxic nukes, and at the rate they are going the rest of the world is going to be left behind. At that point they can sit back and laugh, and suddenly our solar panels aren't so cheap any longer.

[Mark]

Interesting point and I believe there has been research recently into petrol/diesel electric cars where the fuel engine exists only to generate electricity to power the wheels, it sounds like it would be less efficient than direct drive but it turns out that the efficiency of electric motors coupled with running the fuel engine at it's most efficient output range means it's actually much more efficient, but of course much more complicated.

Of course this technology has been in use for decades, the likes of the InterCity HST has two large diesel engines which power electric traction motors.

[SGWilko]

Apologies if this has already been referred to;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25117784

If that had been continually developed, where would we be now?

[Mark]

It should be pointed out, of course, that electric cars pre-date the internal combustion engine. It's just that since oil was discovered, that has proven a more practical power source.

[555-04Q2]

Electric cars = pointless.

At this point , we already have them .
Apart from the fact that most are charged by fossils , they get you where you want to go .

So , there is a point .
They can be charged by the sun or wind to get rid of those fossils , but there doesn't seem the will to be green , with no effective carbon output .

Not to pick on you , 555 , but I find it all a little sad that that isn't enough to be attractive for people .
If enough people were attracted , we might find that the battery technology would improve dramatically .
It's the batteries that are the Achilles heel in the whole thing .
As far as I know , the Volt and others all run on the old lead-acid combo , which certainly has it's limits .

The Tesla runs , if I'm correct , a lithium battery set-up which has much more promise , however , it is a bank of re-purposed cell phone batteries .

Sadly also , though , is the fact that we'll not likely get anything practical from the major car companies , and likely need it to come from a renegade like Tesla , because the big guys are so tied in to the fossils .
It simply sounds suspicious to me that no battery maker has developed a lithium car battery , given that there certainly seems to be a demand for it .
Even if it was only Tesla who was asking for it , wouldn't it be a great way to show off your new product , ready to drop into all the cars that currently run zero emissions with lead-acid , but capable of crushing fossil supercars off the line ?

I'm betting the Chinese could be the answer .
They've changed the world of solar power to a huge extent in the last few years .
Panels only ten years ago selling for $10.00/watt now go for $.85/watt , as I just saw this week in an ad from Trina Solar , a company from China with it's name on the Lotus car in F1 .

Go China go . We need a new generation of batteries to replace this lead acid stuff .

What up Baggy mon :smoking:

Don't worry, I know you aint really picking on me and even if you were I wouldn't give a shyte either :p:

I have absolutely no problem with electric cars. If they were the only cars available tomorrow I would drive them happily without complaining. I would miss the internal combustion engine and the noise that classics like the WRX, Stang's etc make, but I would still live!

What I do have a problem with though is that they are not viable for the average person (unless you live in a city and do 1 km a day) and wont be for at least the rest of this decade, maybe even the next one too. The range of the average EV is poor, to be polite :p: Water power, now that would be the future of the MV!

And EV's aren't as clean as they are made out to be. In fact, if you look at the overall emission and pollution effect required to make the batteries that go into the EV cars, let alone the rest of the vehicle, they are nowhere near green! And EV's are always punted as "green" which is misleading and, to put it mildly, a blatant lie. A bucket load of emissions are required just to get them to the showroom floor due to the number of batteries they require and the processes required to make said batteries.

When an EV can cover 600 km's on a full charge at 120 km/h on the highway, take me only 5 minutes to re-charge like I do at the filing station so I can do another 600 km's straight away, I will buy one. In the meantime, I will continue to burn fossil fuels.

[555-04Q2]

that has proven a more practical power source.

More practical and logical, hence the internal combustion engine has been and still is the most efficient way to power a car :)

[Mark]

It is indeed, and the fact that oil is so energy dense that nothing else comes even remotely close, which is why it's ruled for over 100 years. But I think everyone recognises that oil will become more scarce in the future, and while I believe there will still be oil being pumped in my lifetime, we will have to switch away from it eventually, even if just because as demand rises, supply decreases then prices inevitably rise.

It may well be that, for practical purposes you have to take an electric car, and only that can only do 200km between recharges, as anything else just isn't affordable.

[SGWilko]

that has proven a more practical power source.

More practical and logical, hence the internal combustion engine has been and currently still is the most efficient way to power a car :)


When oil scarcity means prises rise, then it will be financially prudent to invest in alternatives. Follow the money!

[Mark]

Prices are already rising, so given the lag time required for development it makes sense to invest now.

[SGWilko]

Prices are already rising, so given the lag time required for development it makes sense to invest now.

But, the blinkered view of the oil companies means that rising prices is a licence to extract the oil that is harder to get at!!

[Mark]

IMO we need to be moving away from car transport in city centres in any case; but that's a different story ;)

[555-04Q2]

IMO we need to be moving away from car transport in city centres in any case; but that's a different story ;)

You're right, use your own free power source, your legs! :p:

[555-04Q2]

Prices are already rising, so given the lag time required for development it makes sense to invest now.

But, the blinkered view of the oil companies means that rising prices is a licence to extract the oil that is harder to get at!!

When you think about it, fuel is cheap. Dirt cheap in fact. If you consider how much effort and costs are required to get it to the pumps at your local BP, it's amazing. At double the current price, fuel would still be a bargain.

They charge more for bottled water which is far, far easier to get to the local BP!

[Bagwan]

555 , how do you explain that it was reported that all of those who tested the EV1 from GM wanted to buy out the leases and keep the cars ?
They all thought it was practical as could be .

That car was powered by lead acid batteries , and plugged in .

Calling it green refers to the "no tailpipe" aspect in this .
It does not refer to it's manufacture .
However , if you were to compare the cost , in terms both of economics and environmental damage , I would hazard a guess that it's both cheaper and less damaging to create an electric power train than an ICE equivalent .


It's alright , 555 , you're not alone in believing the propaganda that says electric is not viable .
You happily run an electric motor off a battery to start up your fossil machine , so you're part way there .

[555-04Q2]

555 , how do you explain that it was reported that all of those who tested the EV1 from GM wanted to buy out the leases and keep the cars ?
They all thought it was practical as could be .

That car was powered by lead acid batteries , and plugged in .

Calling it green refers to the "no tailpipe" aspect in this .
It does not refer to it's manufacture .
However , if you were to compare the cost , in terms both of economics and environmental damage , I would hazard a guess that it's both cheaper and less damaging to create an electric power train than an ICE equivalent .


It's alright , 555 , you're not alone in believing the propaganda that says electric is not viable .
You happily run an electric motor off a battery to start up your fossil machine , so you're part way there .

Hey Bagwan.

The problem I have at the moment with EV's is they just don't have the range for my requirements. I often do up to 600 or 700 km's in a day. There is no EV that can suit that requirement yet, in fact, nowhere near come close enough. That means I would need a second car for when I need to do that mileage, so an ICE one is also required in my garage and I haven't even taken the wife's car requirements into account.

Now I am lucky enough to be able to afford to have 10 EV's and 10 ICE's parked in my garage if I wanted, but the average Joe can't. In cities an EV makes sense when you are doing a few km's a day,or if you live close to work and kids schools. But for countries like ours, EV's are just not suitable given the distances we all have to travel to get to work, take the kids to school etc as there is no decent public transport. And how do I charge an EV at a power point when MAINS power here often fails due to load shedding and rampant cable theft we suffer from. Leave the car at work and walk home? No thanks!

Like I said, I have nothing against owning an EV, but not until they can match or better what an ICE one can do. I will be the first in line to buy one when they can match range of an ICE version. Running costs are not a concern for me, unhindered, hassle free mobility is :)

[555-04Q2]

Calling it green refers to the "no tailpipe" aspect in this .

True, they have no tail pipe emissions, no one can argue that :) But EV's are promoted and sold as an all round "green" solution, which they aren't. Here's why:

1. They require more emissions and pollution created (including intensive mining operations for the raw materials for the batteries) to manufacture them vs a traditional ICE one. This has been proven.
2. They are charged from a MAINS power point which is powered by, yep you guessed it, a big fat dirty old power plant.
3. Even the best batteries require replacement after a few years. This may change in time however.
4. Disposing of old batteries and/or recycling them is a very dirty and environmentally unfriendly process (I know this as a fact as my company disposes of over 10,000 batteries each and every year).

Take into account the above issues and they are not the "green" or "environmentally friendly" solution that they are made out to be (and this cannot be denied as this is what the governments and car manufacturers are trying to make Mr Consumer believe), but a mere novelty in the motoring world for those with a guilty conscious.

We are still, for the foreseeable future at least, better off with our old ICE's :)

[555-04Q2]

An interesting fact I found on the web from one of the automakers mentioned earlier in this thread:

How much climate pollution is created making an electric car and its batteries? Around 14t CO2 = twice as much as for making an average gasoline-only car. And this is before you look at disposing of the batteries every few years.

[schmenke]

If we all want to "go green" to save the planet, we'd all be driving 4-cyl turbo diesels.

[555-04Q2]

If we all want to "go green" to save the planet, we'd all be driving 4-cyl turbo diesels.

Nah, we would be walking or cycling ;)

[Bagwan]

Electric cars = pointless.

I get it that they aren't practical for you ....yet , but it's this post that had me responding .

I've got long distances to cover , myself , as my country is bigger then yours , so , at present , especially as my country is a lot colder than yours as well , I'm not able to be in that electric category either .

But , I'd never call them "pointless" .

The computer you're sitting at was undoubtedly moved around many times by an electric fork lift before it got to you .
As were all the other things around you .
They were moved by a machine designed to do that job .

I admit that there are current limitations to range , but as the price of extraction becomes higher for fossils , the day moves closer that brings us a new battery .

My old hippie brain won't furnish me the name of the country at the moment , but one government in South America is recognizing the value of vast lithium stores , and , instead of developing new oil fields , beginning to mine that lithium .
Perhaps these huge salt flats can revitalize that country at the same time as inspiring at least a battery actually made for vehicles , instead of the bundles of cell phone batteries like Tesla uses .

I believe that one of the biggest obstacles is the negative attitude in that word "pointless" , as it reinforces the big oil propaganda machine , frankly .

If you've got the cake for 10 Teslas , why not put a few around the country at strategic points , in containers , with solar charging units , so you'd be able to swap out to get the range you need ?
So , I've solved that for you .
You could feel like a formula E driver , swapping out your car to get to your destination .

[schmenke]

...If you've got the cake for 10 Teslas , why not put a few around the country at strategic points , in containers , with solar charging units , so you'd be able to swap out to get the range you need ?
So , I've solved that for you .....

Recharging a half-dozen batteries (lithium ion or lead acid) with a handful of solar panels would take hours. Filling up a 50-gallon petrol tank takes about two minutes :mark: .

[Bagwan]

...If you've got the cake for 10 Teslas , why not put a few around the country at strategic points , in containers , with solar charging units , so you'd be able to swap out to get the range you need ?
So , I've solved that for you .....

Recharging a half-dozen batteries (lithium ion or lead acid) with a handful of solar panels would take hours. Filling up a 50-gallon petrol tank takes about two minutes :mark: .

Was that hard to understand ?

You put a number of cars around the country in charging units , and swap out cars .

Solved .
Sunshine .

[555-04Q2]

Electric cars = pointless.

I get it that they aren't practical for you ....yet , but it's this post that had me responding .

I've got long distances to cover , myself , as my country is bigger then yours , so , at present , especially as my country is a lot colder than yours as well , I'm not able to be in that electric category either .

But , I'd never call them "pointless" .

The computer you're sitting at was undoubtedly moved around many times by an electric fork lift before it got to you .
As were all the other things around you .
They were moved by a machine designed to do that job .

I admit that there are current limitations to range , but as the price of extraction becomes higher for fossils , the day moves closer that brings us a new battery .

My old hippie brain won't furnish me the name of the country at the moment , but one government in South America is recognizing the value of vast lithium stores , and , instead of developing new oil fields , beginning to mine that lithium .
Perhaps these huge salt flats can revitalize that country at the same time as inspiring at least a battery actually made for vehicles , instead of the bundles of cell phone batteries like Tesla uses .

I believe that one of the biggest obstacles is the negative attitude in that word "pointless" , as it reinforces the big oil propaganda machine , frankly .

If you've got the cake for 10 Teslas , why not put a few around the country at strategic points , in containers , with solar charging units , so you'd be able to swap out to get the range you need ?
So , I've solved that for you .
You could feel like a formula E driver , swapping out your car to get to your destination .

Bag, I don't think you understand yet what I am trying to say. They ARE pointless, at least for the next 2 decades. They are not as usable or anywhere near as versatile as an ICE is in anyway, except running costs. But this saving is offset by the higher purchase price, which makes then overall more expensive to own than an ICE one, over here at least.

Now purchasing 10 EV's means 10 times more manufacturing pollution rather than using just 1 ICE that does the same job as the 10 EV's. Get where I'm going with this? They are just not viable or logical which renders them pointless, just like the diet coke fat people drink when eating a double cheese burger.

I have said several times in this thread in recent posts that I have nothing against owning an EV, and I'm sure one day I probably will when the tech gets better. At the moment EV's are just a novelty for people with want to appear to be doing "the right thing" :)

[555-04Q2]

...If you've got the cake for 10 Teslas , why not put a few around the country at strategic points , in containers , with solar charging units , so you'd be able to swap out to get the range you need ?
So , I've solved that for you .....

Recharging a half-dozen batteries (lithium ion or lead acid) with a handful of solar panels would take hours. Filling up a 50-gallon petrol tank takes about two minutes :mark: .

Was that hard to understand ?

You put a number of cars around the country in charging units , and swap out cars .

Solved .
Sunshine .

Over here they would steal the 10 cars as well as the solar panels :p:

[schmenke]

...You put a number of cars around the country in charging units , and swap out cars .

Solved .
Sunshine .

Okaydokay...

When the schmenke family of 4 want to go on a day trip skiing in the mountains in mid-January I’d have to wake up extra-early, trudge through the cold and snow to the nearest charging station to find an available vehicle, that may have received an hour or two of sunshine the day before (assuming it was sunny and the previous user had dropped it off in time to catch the last few rays of sun), try to get it started in -20 deg C temperature, drive it home, load up the family and equipment, drive the 100kms to the mountain, hoping the battery charge will last and the schmenkes will not get stranded on the side of the road. Repeat scenario for the trip home…

Yep, sounds super-practical. Sign me up! :up: .

[Mark]

If we all want to "go green" to save the planet, we'd all be driving 4-cyl turbo diesels.


Ooh like me? :D

[Bagwan]

Recharging a half-dozen batteries (lithium ion or lead acid) with a handful of solar panels would take hours. Filling up a 50-gallon petrol tank takes about two minutes :mark: .

Was that hard to understand ?

You put a number of cars around the country in charging units , and swap out cars .

Solved .
Sunshine .

Over here they would steal the 10 cars as well as the solar panels :p:

Yeah , I wasn't really serious about all that car swapping thing , but there is , I think , an idea in it , if there was some standardization of the vehicle model(s) involved .

schmenke's family trip to the mountains might be entirely plausible if there was a depot to drop off and trade into a new unit when necessary along the way .

It's possible , but you need to think outside the oily box .

There's not a lot of difference between hoping you won't run out of charge , and hoping you won't run out of gas .

So , what I'm suggesting is a vehicle that is already very successful for low mileage usage might be adaptable for even longer trips if there is the infrastructure to enable it . That would be perhaps using already existing gas stations to house swap-out batteries or , indeed , whole cars , maybe as a rental venture .

Maybe the same car they toodle around Cowtown with is a match for the ones they'll swap for on the way to ski , or maybe it's only the lithium power pack that will change , but if the price of oil goes up , and it always will , ideas like this will be commonplace , not crazy hippie flower power , like I make it all sound .

And , Cowtown will be the last place that it catches on .

[Firstgear]

Change is coming...it always has...and it always will. But it takes time and many baby steps.

Electric cars = pointless??? I think that's what the horse & buggy people said about the internal combustion engine.

You charge your EV before you leave home, it has KERS to help extend the range. The roof, hood & trunk lid have imbedded solar cells to extend range further (during daytime when most driving is done). While cruising along the highway, you're batteries are helped along by the wireless charging system embedded in the roadway (I think I read that there is a test section of highway in Michigan for this technology being built or already built). You also have auto cruise enabling you to drive 2 feet from the car in front (nascar style) minimizing wind resistance. Baggy's car also has a vacuum tube & canister to store & use methane produced by his bean-eating passengers in the back seat. :D

ok - that last feature was a bad attempt of thinking outside of the box. But others will have better out-of the-box ideas to help extend range/efficiency even further.

I know it all sounds really scary, but so did the horseless carriage to the stage coach driver.

[schmenke]

...And , Cowtown will be the last place that it catches on .

:D ;) :p:

[555-04Q2]

I mean really?

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-own ... e-20131204 (http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-owner-jailed-for-stealing-a-charge-20131204)

[Mark]

I mean really?

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-own ... e-20131204 (http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-owner-jailed-for-stealing-a-charge-20131204)

I'm sure he would have been prepared to pay for the leccy but it's not like there was any mechanism to do so?

[555-04Q2]

I mean really?

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-own ... e-20131204 (http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-owner-jailed-for-stealing-a-charge-20131204)

I'm sure he would have been prepared to pay for the leccy but it's not like there was any mechanism to do so?

I had quite a good chuckle when I read this article lol :p:

[SGWilko]

I mean really?

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-own ... e-20131204 (http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Leaf-owner-jailed-for-stealing-a-charge-20131204)

I'm sure he would have been prepared to pay for the leccy but it's not like there was any mechanism to do so?

Why could he not have left the car there until a suitable charging mechanism was installed..... ;)

[555-04Q2]

:rotflmao:

[schmenke]

...It's possible , but you need to think outside the oily box .....

It's called a barrel, not a box :p: