2015 WRC Homologation

[Eli]

i wonder if citroen will stay after that,and will ford come back?? it will be intersting to see them. After all VW gave them a lifeline with freezing their development so they (Citroen & Qatar-M-Sport) will not bail out, and hopefully this sport will heal...

[Sulland]

If there is a thread of common sense left in FIA, this homologation periode will be the last of the current WRCar.
The fields and potential winners in todays rally pinnacle class are to narrow, and rally is slowly suffocating.

We need a dramatic change to get larger fields and more exiting rallies, with more potential winners!

[Eli]

true, and what would you suggest?

[Barreis]

R5 as top class.

[Eli]

a lot of people say it's a bad idea

[Barreis]

All experts...

[Hazza555)]

R5 as top class.

A slightly modified upgrade of R5. more power, more aero. but still tightly controlled.

[ToughMac]

A slightly modified upgrade of R5. more power, more aero. but still tightly controlled.

And in a couple of years you could be getting the same levels of performance, great for the fans and great for the manufacturers.

[Carlo]

Go back to the regulations of Groups One, Two & Four

[Sulland]

And in a couple of years you could be getting the same levels of performance, great for the fans and great for the manufacturers.

From what I see it has plenty, but not so much that any driver could drive it fast, it need to separate good/smart drivers from the mediocre ones. Ala the S2000NA.
Keep it simple, and cheap, and strict regulations, so the private teams can fight the manufacturers !

[tommeke_B]

From what I see it has plenty, but not so much that any driver could drive it fast, it need to separate good/smart drivers from the mediocre ones. Ala the S2000NA.
Keep it simple, and cheap, and strict regulations, so the private teams can fight the manufacturers !

If you want to make it possible for private teams to fight the manufacturers, you need to make it possible for private teams to develop own parts. As long as FIA keeps the current homologation system where only a manufacturer can produce/supply parts, privateers are a few steps behind, and the price isn't a factor in that case.

[Mirek]

Exactly, it's not the technical simplicity what makes the car cheap. Current cars are in principle already very simple.

[noel157]

And in a couple of years you could be getting the same levels of performance, great for the fans and great for the manufacturers.

Exactly. R5 will replace current WRC. Well, I think so anyway.

[Motorsportfun]

Exactly, it's not the technical simplicity what makes the car cheap. Current cars are in principle already very simple.

Exactly, totally agree. WRCars rules are simple, but Manufacturers spends lots of money, maybe to get a tenth of a second in tight hairpins, so developing new technical stuff for suspensions, etc. That's cyber sex for Engineers, fans and "common" spectators are not interested in all that... :)

My proposal is a budget-cap:

4 million euro per car for WRC Teams

30 million euro (which is far away from VW budgets and with that should reduce their efforts to develop the car, etc...) per 2 cars for Manufacturers

Excluded from the budget cap are Hospitality budgets, Media and PR activities, Promotion of the team/drivers/brands, etc.

[jonlint]

Exactly, it's not the technical simplicity what makes the car cheap. Current cars are in principle already very simple.

Exactly. There is an interesting interview with Malcolm Wilson on the R5 development. They are forced to use production parts for much of the car. He gave an example that they are using a Porsche sensor on the engine for example with a cost of around 15 Euro whereas the WRC part is bespoke and costs 450 Euro. Technically identical however.

[vkangas]

My proposal is a budget-cap.
Bunget cap is a great idea but impossible in practice. You can't control all outsourcing costs, company structures, different contracts between companies, separation between hospitality and development and so on.

[tommeke_B]

Exactly, totally agree. WRCars rules are simple, but Manufacturers spends lots of money, maybe to get a tenth of a second in tight hairpins, so developing new technical stuff for suspensions, etc. That's cyber sex for Engineers, fans and "common" spectators are not interested in all that... :)

My proposal is a budget-cap:

4 million euro per car for WRC Teams

30 million euro (which is far away from VW budgets and with that should reduce their efforts to develop the car, etc...) per 2 cars for Manufacturers

Excluded from the budget cap are Hospitality budgets, Media and PR activities, Promotion of the team/drivers/brands, etc.
So, 2 questions.
1. How do you know the budget VW has, and how do you know if hospitality, driver salaries, PR activities etc are included or not?
2. How will you check on the money they spend on it? You can end up with manufacturers getting all parts supplied by other "factories" who are selling parts below the production price, without regard of development etc... Or at least that's how it would end up on paper. :) Even governments can hardly find out how much money a rich person actually has, all big companies are having "tax optimisation" (basically hiding from tax) through structures with different companies... Regarding that I think it's impossible for FIA to check the financial situation of EACH team, and of EACH manufacturer.

For me the only option to make rallying affordable, is by opening the market for everyone, and let the law of supply/demand work. :) There are many companies who have the knowhow and who can produce parts, but the regulations don't allow them to... As long as only a select group of companies has the right to produce and sell parts, the price for all parts will be high, as long as there are people who are crazy enough to pay for it. And there will always be people who can pay it, no matter what the price tag is...

[Francis44]

If R5 becomes top class it will be only a matter of months before they get as expensive as a WRC. Unfortunately the teams may not say it but they want the championship as closed as possible.

I think there should be an investment from the FIA to make the ERC the championship for privaters, so they can develop at controlled costs in their way to the WRC.

[Barreis]

Price of WRC car shouldn't be more then 200 000€ (VAT included). That price would help sport grows again (bigger competetion, more private teams, etc.)

[OldF]

Exactly. There is an interesting interview with Malcolm Wilson on the R5 development. They are forced to use production parts for much of the car. He gave an example that they are using a Porsche sensor on the engine for example with a cost of around 15 Euro whereas the WRC part is bespoke and costs 450 Euro. Technically identical however.

Where can that interview be found?

[Hartusvuori]

Where can that interview be found?

It's in the latest Motorsport News issue. If you have an iPad in hand, it's worth the read.

[OldF]

Pity, I don’t have an iPad.

[EightGear]

This was in Autosport last week:

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads6/51c8834ac1a25/51c8834ab9d26-R5_1.png
http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads6/51c883762da67/51c8837624dc2-R5_2.png

[Hartusvuori]

That's same article as is in Motorsport News, though MNews had side article too. Still, the same.

[navtheace]

The article states that the car has to be built using production parts and nothing tailor made or bespoke etc allowed.

The bodykit, 4WD system and how the shell/chassis is not modified/cut/welded big time to allow the 4WD system to be fitted is coming from which road car?

[Mirek]

The article states that the car has to be built using production parts and nothing tailor made or bespoke etc allowed.

No, it doesn't.

[navtheace]

No, it doesn't.

The bit where it is titled What is R5, it is in there, I have not copied it exactly word to word, but almost.

[makinen_fan]

No, it doesn't.

It does indeed, read the second sentence from the section 'What is R5'. I think the article might be a bit misleading, just certain parts and components have to be built from production parts, not the entire car.

[Mirek]

You're both right, sorry for my ignorance. It's of course nonsense but it's really written there.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

The article states that the car has to be built using production parts and nothing tailor made or bespoke etc allowed.

The bodykit, 4WD system and how the shell/chassis is not modified/cut/welded big time to allow the 4WD system to be fitted is coming from which road car?
The 4WD system and the changes to the chassis could be control parts. One of the objectives of the R5 is to cut costs, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to fix the price of parts provided by an external supplier.

As for the bodykit, that would probably be a control part with minor changes to allow it to be fixed to individual cars.

[navtheace]

I think it is very poor by Autosport/Motorsport News to say such a thing about the rules. They should say it as it is, yes some components have to be production parts from any manufacturer. But what they said is clearly wrong.

[OldF]

”Regulations state that the car must be built by using production parts with nothing bespoke or tailor-made allowed.”

“The use of production parts doesn’t preclude the use of specialist suppliers such as Sadev for the transmission or AP-Racing for the brakes. But, the parts purchased have to be off-the-shelf – or, in some cases, designed for M-Sport but then put on the shelf and made available for anybody else to buy”.

Bespoke / tailor made or not? :confused:

Imo parts that can’t be off-the-shelf are wishbones, sub frames, electric looms etc.

I don’t think there are any control parts in the body shell but instead control materials (roll cage) and control dimensions to convert the body shell for 4WD. The allowed modification to the body shell can be found in the rallycross technical regulations (http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/279%20%282013%29-Rallycross.pdf) (page 6).

I read an article some time ago (couldn’t find it anymore) that a new turbo can be homologated if it come from a car produced in min. 2500 units.

[whosyo]

I don't get it.
I think if the specialist suppliers are allowed to make R5 parts, teams are going to buy their expensive parts anyway.

[OldF]

Even more expensive it would be if the manufacturer or the manufacturer’s team would develop parts like gearboxes and brakes by themselves. It would be like inventing the wheel again. Better with a specialized supplier which have experience about these special parts and can also sell the same parts to other racing vehicles (larger production volume = lower unit price).

The parts from the specialist suppliers must also be approved by FIA (price).

[Eli]

so any news from rules and regulations for the next couple of years???

[navtheace]

Guess we will have to wait for the FIA to announce a plan of the phasing out of the current WRC/RRC categories next year and R5 to become the top category for 2016?

Maybe the R5 category will be moved to a 34mm restrictor from the current 32mm in order to keep the speeds exactly the same as what the WRC's have now.

[Mirek]

It's not that easy. The R5 engines and all parts are closer to production units and with reasonably bigger torque and power with 2 mm larger restrictor (approximately 13% of power more) it could bring serious reliability issues. Another factor is rews. Current R5 are designed for maximum 7500 RPM and I believe Fiesta has it's peak power around 6000 RPM. With same turbo and that larger restrictor the peak power must move a lot higher, I can imagine it can be even 2000 RPM or something. Rews are very serious thing for reliability.

I don't say it's not possible, I just want to say that it would probably lead to a large redesign of many parts (and also growth of price).

[OldF]

I copied MJW’s comment from the Hyundai thread and continuing here because imo MJW’s comment is also a general comment about the homologations in future.


New basis for homologation too in 2015, the new WRC cars will not be homologated as S2000 type. Maybe some form of R5 or R5plus for the top class. From the gossip I am hearing there are a lot of manufacturers evaluating if not developing R5 rally cars. So in a way 2015 is press the re-start button on WRC technically speaking.

Jarmo Mahonen said that FIA is committed to the current WRC cars until the end of 2016 and Malcom Wilson told that the price of the R5 is frozen until the end of 2015. Two end dates, 2015 and 2016. Maybe the price freeze for R5 cars don’t have anything to do with homologations and 2,5 years with the same price despite the inflation is maybe enough.

World Rally Championship - News - Wilson: New R5 a big step forward (http://www.wrc.com/news/wilson-new-r5-a-big-step-forward/?fid=18654)

“The FIA has frozen the price until the end of 2015, so customers know exactly what the costs are going to be.”


Google-kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2013%2F08%2F1788090%2Frallipomo-mahonen-mm-sarjaan-ehdolla-parikymmenta-muutosta)

The manufacturers decided among themselves that no new WRC homologations will be done next year but they can use 4 jokers to develop parts except the engine.

We are committed to continue with the current WRC cars until the end of 2016. About R5 Mahonen said it’s meant to be a replacement for group N cars. “I don’t know anything about the future cars but personally I would like to see more powerful cars.”

[navtheace]

The FIA could easily control the costs of the R5 car. By taking the rules further with production brake calipers (any car manufacturer and homologated of car production of 2500 models at least etc).

There are many other components they could apply this to, like the turbo. As they already have the rule in place for the intercooler and radiator.

Then start to trim things further by production only bodywork, driven wheels as the road car.

So cars like the MINI Countryman can turn up as 4WD and the likes of Hyundai and VW will have to think about making 4WD road cars of their i20 and Polo.

The solution is bringing the rally car closer to the road car, aka GpA style. Allowing parts like brake calipers, sensors, turbo, radiator, intercooler etc from any production road car is a good move.

I guess Porsche brake calipers would be the brake weapon of choice if the rule is applied to the brakes?

[NxOxT]

The FIA could easily control the costs of the R5 car. By taking the rules further with production brake calipers (any car manufacturer and homologated of car production of 2500 models at least etc).

There are many other components they could apply this to, like the turbo. As they already have the rule in place for the intercooler and radiator.

Then start to trim things further by production only bodywork, driven wheels as the road car.

So cars like the MINI Countryman can turn up as 4WD and the likes of Hyundai and VW will have to think about making 4WD road cars of their i20 and Polo.

The solution is bringing the rally car closer to the road car, aka GpA style. Allowing parts like brake calipers, sensors, turbo, radiator, intercooler etc from any production road car is a good move.

I guess Porsche brake calipers would be the brake weapon of choice if the rule is applied to the brakes?

are you not bored yet to repeat the same idiotic, to say the least, ideas over and over and over again ???? Motorsport attract the crows just because they use unique vehicles... if you do not like it go watch autocross full of 50 year old failures...

[navtheace]

GpA was one of the most popular times for bringing the crowds in.

[OldF]

The FIA could easily control the costs of the R5 car. By taking the rules further with production brake calipers (any car manufacturer and homologated of car production of 2500 models at least etc).

There are many other components they could apply this to, like the turbo.

Afaik it’s already the case. Look at post #31 in this thread.

[Eli]

anything new abbout the homologation regulations for 2015 onwards???

[OldF]

I wonder what’s the ultimate goal with the R5+ is (modified turbo and intake, 34 mm restrictor and extra 30hp: http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-news/f ... odels.html (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-news/fiesta-r5/impressive-debut-for-m-sport-s-latest-models.html)).

M-Sport say it’s intended for national championships but I find it strange to have a car that’s is more powerful than the R5 & S2000, which are the top class in many national championships. Imo the R5+ belong in a different class than R5 & S2000. Top class R5+, next level R5 &S2000, N4 etc. :confused:

The other new model introduced was the Fiesta RS34. Could M-Sport have some deal with FIA to test these new models as possible new WRC formula or is it just MW’s business?

[Mirek]

Both have nothing to do with FIA homologations. They are intended for events run under national regulations (specifically BTRDA series I believe).

[Hasselhoax]

I wonder what’s the ultimate goal with the R5+ is (modified turbo and intake, 34 mm restrictor and extra 30hp: http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-news/f ... odels.html (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-news/fiesta-r5/impressive-debut-for-m-sport-s-latest-models.html)).

M-Sport say it’s intended for national championships but I find it strange to have a car that’s is more powerful than the R5 & S2000, which are the top class in many national championships. Imo the R5+ belong in a different class than R5 & S2000. Top class R5+, next level R5 &S2000, N4 etc. :confused:

The other new model introduced was the Fiesta RS34. Could M-Sport have some deal with FIA to test these new models as possible new WRC formula or is it just MW’s business?

I like the question you're asking. I find it quite strange to have them just for national rallies too. Seems a bit...odd.

Or maybe MW just tries to sell a Fiesta two times. Twice the buyers twice the money to burn a hole in his pocket?