Alonso vs. Hamilton - power struggle? [Archive]

Ranger

9th April 2007, 09:49

Thought this would be a good thread to go against the Kimi vs. Massa thread.
So far neither of them have done anything wrong, which is the reason why Alonso leads the standings and McLaren likewise.

IMO this is the best driver pairing in quite a while. This may be a sweeping statement to make so early in the season, but I honestly think it is the best driver pairing, or just maybe equal to the Senna and Prost lineup at McLaren in 1988-1989.

You have the reigning champion, who does nothing more than he has to, yet is consistant and quick, which is the reason why he is twice a world champion.

The rookie alongside him seems to be the best Brit the sport has produced in quite a while. His racecraft is agressive, yet still smooth, almost seamless so early in his career.

Now obviously to the title of the thread. Obviously both drivers want to be champion, as echoed by Alonso pre-season and Hamilton during his slow down lap. I honestly think this pairing could turn quite nasty if either of them gets down to the pointy end of this championship, as there still seems to be unresolved tension between Alonso and Hamilton (from what I gathered about Hamilton's comments on the slow-down lap). It is early days now, but I think at some point during this season, Ron Dennis may have to step in to keep both his drivers in check.

They are both outstandingly re-assured drivers who are skilled operators at their craft, but with this comes consequences. Neither like losing. They are both near the top level of driving possible as well - both quick and consistant.

Hence I am concluding that at some point during this year, or at latest, next, there will be a power struggle at McLaren.

F1boat

9th April 2007, 10:39

It is similar to 1988, you know. At that time Prost was the established champion and Senna wanted his crown badly.
On the other hand, to me it seems that Lewis is not yet a amtch for Alonso and by the time he becomes, fernando would have unassailable lead over him and McLaren will focus their tactic on the Spaniard, because, unlike in 1988, it is expected that Ferrari will be competitive and Alonso will have to worry about Kimi Raikkonen.

leopard

9th April 2007, 11:05

It depends on which point of view we will call them as the best driver line-up, if we talk about ability it might be right that they are the best drivers of McLaren post Sena – Prost, although we don’t know yet about Hamilton consistency the rest races, and Hamilton needs more experience for being at Alonso's pace.

But if we call it from team's strategy amd race atmosphere, from what in so far as i read from many source about driver character, Kimi-Massa represents situation of Sena - Prost were, as such Kimi - JPM at McLaren, all of them have the same passion for the title.

Eloquent statement of Hamilton about Massa's fault at Sepang, and many other statements about teammate and teams, and the manner he is at the track, Hamilton is a best man in company, best friend at the same boat, isn’t comparable to Sena - Prost (probably).

Donney

9th April 2007, 11:23

I reckon McLaren will slow Hamilton a little because this is learning year, and next year it may turn nasty.

Mickey T

9th April 2007, 12:30

not really that similar at all. remember, senna had already been an F1 race winner with Lotus, and almost won in the rain (against prost) in an overweight Toleman in 84 (or was it 85?).

Lewis looks more and more like a freak, but the scenario to senna is very different. senna was already an established f1 star

F1boat

9th April 2007, 12:36

Yeah, but hamilton is a GP 2 champion and a GP 2 cars these days really are close to F1 in these days.

waitey

9th April 2007, 12:59

Yeah, but hamilton is a GP 2 champion and a GP 2 cars these days really are close to F1 in these days.

they are close but still so far. They are as close to formula 1 as you can get in another series basically, yet they are still so far away in terms of pace, a formula 1 car would still eat a GP2 car alive and humiliate it. Not everyone that is good in GP2 can succeed in f1

BeansBeansBeans

9th April 2007, 13:07

Alonso and Hamilton seem to have a good relationship, and it's enjoyable to witness the cameraderie between them. I hope it can stay this way, but I'm not sure whether it will be possible once they start seriously competing for top-dog status. Team-mates only seem to be able to maintain a strong friendship when there is a clear driver hierarchy (ie Berger & Senna).

Zico

9th April 2007, 13:07

I reckon McLaren will slow Hamilton a little because this is learning year, and next year it may turn nasty.

I agree, Hamilton will have to accept that he is No2 to a world champion and shouldnt get carried away. If he ever manages to outqualify Alonso consistently only then and after at least one full season in F1 should he feel justified at wanting an equal footing.

Ian McC

9th April 2007, 13:16

I reckon McLaren will slow Hamilton a little because this is learning year, and next year it may turn nasty.

That would be a bit pointless, and how exactly do you think they would do it?

BeansBeansBeans

9th April 2007, 13:24

That would be a bit pointless, and how exactly do you think they would do it?

Simply paint a Honda silver and get him to drive that.

Ian McC

9th April 2007, 13:25

Simply paint a Honda silver and get him to drive that.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone :eek:

Zico

9th April 2007, 13:32

That would be a bit pointless, and how exactly do you think they would do it?

As they have been.. dodgy pitting strategy?

Ranger

9th April 2007, 14:06

Just on the dodgy pit-stops point Zico made...

It seems like McLaren are deliberately doing it so that Alonso will get a leg up on this championship. But Hamilton doesn't seem too keen on this, which is understandably so. Obviously Hamilton has full belief in his own ability and is aware that he can beat and possibly would beat Alonso on any given day.

Obviously this would be for the benefit of Alonso and the team, but will eventually make Lewis very frustrated (I've been getting that impression from him already).

Like in 1988, I think Ron Dennis will have to step in to keep his drivers in check. Right now he has at least (IMO) 2 of the best 3 guys on the grid, and by God he is going to want to keep them from bailing from the team in dissatisfaction.

jens

9th April 2007, 14:09

I think that in 2008 we might see an interesting team-mate battle and maybe for the title. I'm already looking forward to it. :D

Ranger

9th April 2007, 14:20

I think that in 2008 we might see an interesting team-mate battle and maybe for the title. I'm already looking forward to it. :D
I hope that in 2008, McLaren will maintain their recently found pace and reliability to make that possible. Not just for the fact that I am a McLaren fan, but because the possibility of a team-mate battle to the end seems pretty good to me.

Of course, it would be better if more drivers joined that party, but then team orders may come into effect - something that would be rather hard to take for either of the Woking men.

Donney

9th April 2007, 16:04

That would be a bit pointless, and how exactly do you think they would do it?

There are plenty of ways and the obvious one would be telling him to accept the "never imposed" team orders.

If not pits, rev limiting the engine.....

samuratt

9th April 2007, 16:58

the beattle will come nest year, this year I simply think that Hamilton is still a step behind in consistnecy. But one thing is for sure, he is very good and will fight for the crown in the near future...

It is incredible how he managed to do in one race the job Fishichella was asked to do the last to years.. ;)

trumperZ06

9th April 2007, 17:28

:D So far, Hamilton has been OUTSTANDING !!! The Speed TV announcers kept pointing out his ability... then backing off a bit... then raving about Lewis's ability again. The announcers did finish by saying remember... he is just a rookie and still has to prove himself over the full season.

:dozey: Alonso has the experience and should be favored by the team... unless he runs into mechanical problems. Next year is likely to turn bitter... expecting LH to challenge FA for team leadership from the get-go. Ron may have problem trying to keep both drivers happy in 2008.

ioan

9th April 2007, 19:59

Let's see what happens when they get to European tracks that LH knows well too, FA might lose some sleep from than on!

Garry Walker

9th April 2007, 20:52

so far LH has had team-orders in 2 races to help FA.

ArrowsFA1

9th April 2007, 22:01

so far LH has had team-orders in 2 races to help FA.
:laugh:

OTA

10th April 2007, 00:45

Topic of the year, and likely to continue to be so.
I think that Hamilton is a very worthy competitor for FA and power struggle started the day they got into the car. I'm quite sure FA as arrogant as he might look to some was quite aware of how good Hamilton is. He is a wise guy and I'm sure he knew it was coming.
However, I do think that this relationship has a long way to go. This year will likely be very positive and FA will have the last word and not because of team orders, but just by natural hierarchy, obviously as long as he doesn't mess up which I doubt. Hamilton will profit enoumusly from having that kind of enviroment in his rookie year and will achive big things.
Next year will probably already be a real head to head battle that will definatlely have a winner, and once it has a winner all problems will follow.
None of the two will settle for second and I don't really see them together for more that 3 years. But it will definately be a huge push up for Mac. It's been a long time for Ron .

Cheers
David

Roamy

10th April 2007, 02:25

I think too much speculation here. Dennis will allow them to race but probably not to make any stupid overtaking moves that would or could take out both cars. LH has a wonderfull opportunity and all he needs to do is stick that car right on Alonso's gear box and stay there - Many of you may remember ronnie peterson and mario.. Peterson may have been the faster driver and on many ocassions has his car right on mario's gear box. So far I think LH is just a touch behind so this will be very good to watch. almost like jv and hill.

raphael123

10th April 2007, 11:27

At the moment Hamilton is only 4pts behind Alonso. I would be surprised if Hamilton keeps this kind of performance up for the entire season, but depending on the car's performance for the remainder of the season, he could be an outside contender for the championship!

It shall definately be interesting to see how McLaren when or if Hamilton starts matching Alonso. At the moment he's not quite there.

ArrowsFA1

10th April 2007, 11:30

McLaren say they are not concerned by the possibility of friction developing between Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton in the fight for more victories this year...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57965

ioan

10th April 2007, 12:07

:laugh:

Very sensible reply to a realistic point! :rolleyes:

ioan

10th April 2007, 12:08

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57965

Well, they should be concerned cause FA will throw the toys out of the pram as soon as something won't go his way, last season had a few examples for this.

raphael123

10th April 2007, 12:35

Well, they should be concerned cause FA will throw the toys out of the pram as soon as something won't go his way, last season had a few examples for this.

That is so typical of a Schumacher fan. Is it sour grapes from Michael Schumacher not finishing his career as the worlds best?

What comments are you on abot specifically?

Alonso made some comments last season, which were completely twisted by the media. I'm sure this must have been discussed numerous times on here, and if it wasn't Alonso clarified what he had said anyway. So why you get the urge to say stuff like that is beyond me.

ArrowsFA1

10th April 2007, 12:43

Very sensible reply to a realistic point! :rolleyes:
I was laughing, ioan, because the term 'team-orders' is a very well worn and familiar excuse.

Was Alonso's drive not worthy of the victory?

raphael123

10th April 2007, 12:46

Btw Ioan, do you agree with what Garry Walker has said then regarding the team-orders? :)

janneppi

10th April 2007, 12:53

I'm not ioan, but i do somewhat agree with Garry about FA/LH pecking order, LH's job was to slow Massa down in the last race and i'm not convinced LH's pit strategy wasn't designed Alonso in mind.

raphael123

10th April 2007, 12:58

I'm not ioan, but i do somewhat agree with Garry about FA/LH pecking order, LH's job was to slow Massa down in the last race and i'm not convinced LH's pit strategy wasn't designed Alonso in mind.

Why do you think that Lewis deliberately drove slower than what he was able to do?
What makes you think that?

janneppi

10th April 2007, 13:06

wedge

10th April 2007, 13:09

There's a number of factors for a power struggle. It depends on the driver relationships between themselves and team members, who Ron Dennis favours or gets on with Ron most and how benevolent or ruthless, selfish and competitive the drivers are.

One thing we do not know about yet are gentleman's agreements between the drivers.

Hakkinen and DC agreed on a pact that whoever leads at the first corner at the start of the 1998 Australian GP should win the race. At one point DC led the race, controversially slowed down on the pit straight and handed the lead back to Mika again. DC and Mika always maintained a good working relationship.

There was a similar pact between Senna and Prost. Senna overtook Prost into Tosa at the 1989 San Marino GP, when the race was re-started. This was the point when Senna and Prost's relationship went from bad to worse, Prost was so angry by that incident that he refused to do the press conference after the race.

I think LH has for now settled as #2. At this point in his F1 career he owes too much to McLaren and Ron Dennis and would be foolish to create instability within the team. It will certainly get interesting by the time its the British GP, whether LH can realistically fight for a WDC or not.

raphael123

10th April 2007, 13:24

Because i think he could have been faster compared to Alonso, Mika salo also commentated about LH's braking points being rather off in places where overtaking was impossible. I don't think he has a reason to make stuff up.

I think Lewis was going as quick as possible. In qualifying he was a good .7 slower than alonso. Massa and Kimi were obviously quicker than Lewis, which meant for Lewis to defend his position he had to drive defensively rather than offensively, which slowed him down even more.

I haven't heard Mika Salo's comments. Is there a link? Saying that, each driver has a different style, which braking is part of. Some brake late and accelerate out the corner a bit later, some brake earlier to carry more speed through the corner.

The pitstops McLaren have had so far have definately benefited Alonso more, but that wouldn't have changed the results anyway. However to say Hamilton was deliberately driving slower than what he could potentially do is ridiculous.

janneppi

10th April 2007, 13:36

I haven't heard Mika Salo's comments. Is there a link? Saying that, each driver has a different style, which braking is part of. Some brake late and accelerate out the corner a bit later, some brake earlier to carry more speed through the corner.
He was commentator for the race in Finnish, so unless you youtoob it and learn Finnish, i'm not confident you'll ever get that quote. :)

However to say Hamilton was deliberately driving slower than what he could potentially do is ridiculous.

No it isn't, it's called doing a twobens, or sometimes protecting your number 1 driver

ioan

10th April 2007, 14:55

That is so typical of a Schumacher fan. Is it sour grapes from Michael Schumacher not finishing his career as the worlds best?

What comments are you on abot specifically?

Alonso made some comments last season, which were completely twisted by the media. I'm sure this must have been discussed numerous times on here, and if it wasn't Alonso clarified what he had said anyway. So why you get the urge to say stuff like that is beyond me.

Just get of the high horse and stop attacking me, as MS fan or whatever else you mind farts. Do you have a comment to this threads subject or just fool around getting on others nerves.

ioan

10th April 2007, 14:56

Btw Ioan, do you agree with what Garry Walker has said then regarding the team-orders? :)

Yes I do!

raphael123

10th April 2007, 15:01

Just get of the high horse and stop attacking me, as MS fan or whatever else you mind farts. Do you have a comment to this threads subject or just fool around getting on others nerves.

Mmmm, I asked you what comments of Alonso you were referring to?
If you could just answer that question that would be fine :)

raphael123

10th April 2007, 15:04

He was commentator for the race in Finnish, so unless you youtoob it and learn Finnish, i'm not confident you'll ever get that quote. :)

No it isn't, it's called doing a twobens, or sometimes protecting your number 1 driver

He was protecting his number 1 by not letting the Ferrari's by. But he was deliberately driving slowly to hold them up. He was pushing to his limit. As the last stint showed, he losing 1sec a lap to Alonso, even when he was under pressure from Kimi. What was the need for driving that slowly if it was deliberate?

I think some people just have to learn to accept that Hamilton, in his 2nd race, isn't able to match Alonso, the 2 x WC over the course of a race distance.

As for his braking, all I can say is that every driver has different driving styles, maybe Hamilton is quite original. Also the fact he was defending so vigoriously maybe he had to change his style a bit. Mika Salo is the only person, and the odd ferrari fan on here to truly believe that Hamilton was deliberately driving slower to hold them up, when he could have really gone quicker.

ioan

10th April 2007, 15:15

Mmmm, I asked you what comments of Alonso you were referring to?
If you could just answer that question that would be fine :)

The day you will keep commenting only on the topic of the thread I'll do it too.

janneppi

10th April 2007, 19:00

He was protecting his number 1 by not letting the Ferrari's by. But he was deliberately driving slowly to hold them up. He was pushing to his limit. As the last stint showed, he losing 1sec a lap to Alonso, even when he was under pressure from Kimi. What was the need for driving that slowly if it was deliberate?
How do you figure he was pushing to the limit when he was 1 sec/lap slower in the first stint than Alonso, he was much closer than that in qually with the same fuel load. Hamilton himself said he had no water in the end of the race and was a bit caught by surprise Kimi's sudden speed. He lacked the stamina to fully charge a complete race.
Even Ron said that Alonso's win was due to a succesfull team strategy(altough Haug denied it) strongly hinting that Hamilton was used to give Alonso room.

I think some people just have to learn to accept that Hamilton, in his 2nd race, isn't able to match Alonso, the 2 x WC over the course of a race distance.
I well aware that he isn't up to Alonso's level yet on race distance, but the first ten/fifteen laps aren't no where near the complete race distance.

As for his braking, all I can say is that every driver has different driving styles, maybe Hamilton is quite original. Also the fact he was defending so vigoriously maybe he had to change his style a bit. Mika Salo is the only person, and the odd ferrari fan on here to truly believe that Hamilton was deliberately driving slower to hold them up, when he could have really gone quicker.
I resent words Ferrari fan mentioned in a post quoted from me, i ask, don't make the mistake of thinking i'm a tifosi, thank you. :)

fitzski

10th April 2007, 20:35

On the radio communications between the pit and LH at the end of Malaysia, didn't Hamilton make some comment about "now I have to win a race"? LH is definitely cocky for someone who has done just 2 GP's (not a bad thing for an F1 driver, but certainly not endearing), and I can't see him tolerating anything that would keep him from being in the spotlight, at least not for very long. He owes much to Mclaren/Ron Dennis throughout his career, but loyalty in F1 is so often a rare thing.

Alonso is the 2-time defending world champion, and that makes him a known quantity. LH is the number 2 in my book, no matter how good he is.

Mclaren/Ron Dennis isn't known (to the extent of Ferrari, under Michael/Rubens, for example) for giving team orders, IMO. I don't think there was any such thing going on in Malaysia. LH getting into second was because Massa is an impetuous idiot and I've NO idea what he was thinking in swerving well over to the left, clean line or not - he had to defend through the first corner, and he didn't.

Timber

10th April 2007, 22:05

i wonder what LH would do in a Red Bull ... He is in the best team at the moment . Not to many rookies start their carer that way ....

BeansBeansBeans

10th April 2007, 22:12

i wonder what LH would do in a Red Bull ... He is in the best team at the moment . Not to many rookies start their carer that way ....

If he'd started in a Red Bull he wouldn't have had two podiums, but that doesn't alter the fact that he has driven brilliantly in his first two Grands Prix.

Zico

10th April 2007, 22:19

He is in the best team at the moment .

Im not so sure about that.. I expect Ferrari to have their engine problems sorted before the weekend, but reprogramming FM will be the tougher problem.

futuretiger9

10th April 2007, 23:25

If he'd started in a Red Bull he wouldn't have had two podiums, but that doesn't alter the fact that he has driven brilliantly in his first two Grands Prix.

The impressive thing about Hamilton has been his composure. He was under colossal pressure to deliver from the start, and he has accomplished that. That said, he has been behind Alonso, so he is still the number two. Hamilton's consistency should assist McLaren in going for the Constructor's title.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 09:27

How do you figure he was pushing to the limit when he was 1 sec/lap slower in the first stint than Alonso, he was much closer than that in qually with the same fuel load. Hamilton himself said he had no water in the end of the race and was a bit caught by surprise Kimi's sudden speed. He lacked the stamina to fully charge a complete race.
Even Ron said that Alonso's win was due to a succesfull team strategy(altough Haug denied it) strongly hinting that Hamilton was used to give Alonso room.

Hamilton was losing around 1sec a lap in the first stint. He was 0.7sec slower than Alonso in qualifying. I think losing another 0.2-0.3sec a lap through driving defensively rather than offensively is quite normal. When you have to defend as vigoriously as Hamilton was to keep the Ferrari's behind (in particular Massa) I think his race pace was consistent to the level he showed in comparison to Alonso in Q3.

Then in the 2nd stint he was relieved from the pressure of having a Ferrari right up his backside meaning he could take the normal racing lines and braking points, and on top of that he had less fuel than Alonso, and had a shorter pitstop meaning he made up some time in the pitstops (as he pitted in after Alonso).

I well aware that he isn't up to Alonso's level yet on race distance, but the first ten/fifteen laps aren't no where near the complete race distance.

I've explained that above :) I was referring to the latter laps of the race more so than the first 10-15 laps :)

I resent words Ferrari fan mentioned in a post quoted from me, i ask, don't make the mistake of thinking i'm a tifosi, thank you. :)

Sorry, I was referring to Garry Walker and Ioan rather than you.
But yes, there are very very few people who believe (like you) that Hamilton was driving slower than his potential in the first stint to hold up the Ferrari's.

The strategy is a different thing. I think it's clear to see the last two pitstops strategies have favoured Alonso over Hamilton. I would have thought that's what Dennis was referring to rather than they radioed Hamilton and told him to slow down! Just because Ferrari use to stoop to that level after 1 race, I don't think we should assume McLaren and the other teams do the exact same thing. Later on in the season...who knows.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 09:32

i wonder what LH would do in a Red Bull ... He is in the best team at the moment . Not to many rookies start their carer that way ....

True, you have to wonder don't you. Was Jenson Button debut, in the Williams car more impressive? When you compare the competitiveness of their respective cars, it could be argued so! And look at him now - though he is undoubtedly one of the best on the grid - Top 5. His achievements in F1 are pretty poor!

Or what about Villeneuve. He may very well have had the best car out there, but his performances in his debut season was phenomenal! Especially Race 1! But he's hardly considered a 'great', even 'very good' by most (unfairly I think).

Ranger

11th April 2007, 09:52

And look at him now - though he is undoubtedly one of the best on the grid - Top 5.
You may get a few disagreements on that one. ;)

Or what about Villeneuve. He may very well have had the best car out there, but his performances in his debut season was phenomenal! Especially Race 1! But he's hardly considered a 'great', even 'very good' by most (unfairly I think).

Somewhat unfair. But it was his choice to go to what was the doldrums of BAR. Too many unspectacular performances nearing the back of the grid, a new team boss and being beaten by Button pretty much ended his career.

Had he left before 2002 he still would've been pretty good in the minds of many - but after a while he was simply flogging a dead horse, then he became that horse in the past 3 years.

I don't think Hamilton will go down this path simply because of his relationship with Dennis and McLaren, though, like anything in F1, it isn't impossible.

janneppi

11th April 2007, 10:03

Hamilton was losing around 1sec a lap in the first stint. He was 0.7sec slower than Alonso in qualifying. I think losing another 0.2-0.3sec a lap through driving defensively rather than offensively is quite normal. When you have to defend as vigoriously as Hamilton was to keep the Ferrari's behind (in particular Massa) I think his race pace was consistent to the level he showed in comparison to Alonso in Q3.

And as mentioned in another thread, Hamilton wasn't able to get everything out of the car and from himself in the qually, he was being overly cautious of rain.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 10:21

And as mentioned in another thread, Hamilton wasn't able to get everything out of the car and from himself in the qually, he was being overly cautious of rain.

Even in Qualie 2 HAmilton was over 0.6sec slower than Alonso, where they both had dry visors, soft tyres, minimum fuel.

And as I said, when defending as vigorously as he was against Massa in particular, losing 1sec a lap, on top of having more fuel, and being slower than your team-mate in the first place, wasn't that much of a surprise.

I didn't hear anyone state they thought Hamilton deliberately slowed down to hold the Ferrari's up until I logged on here Tuesday morning. The rest of my points concerning why Hamilton closed the gap in the 2nd stint, and the pattern in the 3rd stint all make perfectly normal sense. As does the 1st stint.

It seems some of you think, even though Hamilton was 0.6sec slower than Alonso in Qualie 2, 0.7 slower in qualie 3, and had 3-4 laps more fuel on board, and had Massa (who was 1 sec quicker than LH in Qualie 3!) behind him trying to get passed, expected Hamilton to lap as quickly as Alonso.

I think some people are trying to see things which really aren't there.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 10:23

You may get a few disagreements on that one. ;)

Somewhat unfair. But it was his choice to go to what was the doldrums of BAR. Too many unspectacular performances nearing the back of the grid, a new team boss and being beaten by Button pretty much ended his career.

Had he left before 2002 he still would've been pretty good in the minds of many - but after a while he was simply flogging a dead horse, then he became that horse in the past 3 years.

I don't think Hamilton will go down this path simply because of his relationship with Dennis and McLaren, though, like anything in F1, it isn't impossible.

I agree. I think Villeneuve stuffed up by going to BAR. No doubt about it. He still beat good team-mates in Panis though. And then he matched Massa by the 2nd half of his season with him, and matched/beat Heidfeld more often than not. But his stint against Button completely ruined his reputation.

Who would you rate above Button by the way? I'm assuming you think there are AT LEAST 5 drivers out there who are better than Button?

janneppi

11th April 2007, 11:10

Even in Qualie 2 HAmilton was over 0.6sec slower than Alonso, where they both had dry visors, soft tyres, minimum fuel.

And as I said, when defending as vigorously as he was against Massa in particular, losing 1sec a lap, on top of having more fuel, and being slower than your team-mate in the first place, wasn't that much of a surprise.

I didn't hear anyone state they thought Hamilton deliberately slowed down to hold the Ferrari's up until I logged on here Tuesday morning. The rest of my points concerning why Hamilton closed the gap in the 2nd stint, and the pattern in the 3rd stint all make perfectly normal sense. As does the 1st stint.

It seems some of you think, even though Hamilton was 0.6sec slower than Alonso in Qualie 2, 0.7 slower in qualie 3, and had 3-4 laps more fuel on board, and had Massa (who was 1 sec quicker than LH in Qualie 3!) behind him trying to get passed, expected Hamilton to lap as quickly as Alonso.

I think some people are trying to see things which really aren't there.

Alonsos and Hamiltons times in first and seconds qually aren't really a reliable measure since drivers aren't yet 100% speeds there.
In Q3 Alonso was going flatout, which he didn't need to do in the race since Hamilton was protecting him. I would put Hamilton driving cautiously costing him atleast 0.2 secs, maybe even 0.3 in Q3
After Massa's outing Kimi wasn't really able to get near Hamilton for a serious attempt, so LH didn't need to drive protectively, yet the gap to Alonso increased at a same pace, lap 10 it was 10 secs, 17, it was 16 secs, then in second stint he takes 8-9 secs of Alonsos lead.
I'd be interested to find what lap times did LH do laps 17,18,19 . Is the German(?) data website we had last years still working?

raphael123

11th April 2007, 11:29

Alonsos and Hamiltons times in first and seconds qually aren't really a reliable measure since drivers aren't yet 100% speeds there.
In Q3 Alonso was going flatout, which he didn't need to do in the race since Hamilton was protecting him. I would put Hamilton driving cautiously costing him atleast 0.2 secs, maybe even 0.3 in Q3
After Massa's outing Kimi wasn't really able to get near Hamilton for a serious attempt, so LH didn't need to drive protectively, yet the gap to Alonso increased at a same pace, lap 10 it was 10 secs, 17, it was 16 secs, then in second stint he takes 8-9 secs of Alonsos lead.
I'd be interested to find what lap times did LH do laps 17,18,19 . Is the German(?) data website we had last years still working?

Hamilton was already 0.3-4 behind Alonso's time by the 2nd sector (of Qualie 3). And in Sector 2 when Lewis was 0.6 slower - is when they are at their ultimate pace by the way, because of the low fuel.

Kimi didn't pressurise Hamilton in the same way Massa did, but Hamilton was still driving defensively. He had to move off the racing lines to make sure Kimi didn't get a tow etc. I don't think you can say Hamilton was free to drive offensively in that first stint!

Then I've explained to you the 2nd stint. Hamilton pitted in 3-4 laps later, which obviously helped his cause in catching Alonso, plus he had a shorter pitstop and less fuel on board (hence the shorter pitstop). On top of the fact Hamilton was still pushing hard to get a margin over Kimi, and Alonso wasn't pushing 100% like when he first took the lead, the fact Hamilton closed the gap by 9sec wasn't really that much of a surprise (3-4sec made through the pitstops alone!).

I've got a website at home with all the lap times of each lap etc. I'll check it out when I get in :)

But I still think your looking at things which simply aren't there. I don't know why, but it's only people on this forum board who have said such things (and Mika Salo eh), I'd never heard of this 'theory' until Tuesday morning when I logged on

janneppi

11th April 2007, 11:46

Kimi didn't pressurise Hamilton in the same way Massa did, but Hamilton was still driving defensively. He had to move off the racing lines to make sure Kimi didn't get a tow etc. I don't think you can say Hamilton was free to drive offensively in that first stint!
You don't loose tenths of a second simply going slightly the wrong line an a straight. While LH had to be alert, he was not seriously pressured by Kimi at all, exept when LH made a slight mistake

Then I've explained to you the 2nd stint. Hamilton pitted in 3-4 laps later, which obviously helped his cause in catching Alonso, plus he had a shorter pitstop and less fuel on board (hence the shorter pitstop). On top of the fact Hamilton was still pushing hard to get a margin over Kimi, and Alonso wasn't pushing 100% like when he first took the lead, the fact Hamilton closed the gap by 9sec wasn't really that much of a surprise (3-4sec made through the pitstops alone!).
Alonso said he was pushing in the second stint because they were worried about Kimis fuel load. And still, pitstops in mind LH managed to drive 5-6 secs off Alonsos lead. while being 0.7 secs slower per lap. ;)

I've got a website at home with all the lap times of each lap etc. I'll check it out when I get in :)

But I still think your looking at things which simply aren't there. I don't know why, but it's only people on this forum board who have said such things (and Mika Salo eh), I'd never heard of this 'theory' until Tuesday morning when I logged onBritish media isn't really going to point out their guy is used as a tool for Alonso, is it? ;)

raphael123

11th April 2007, 12:59

He was 0.7sec slower when he had more fuel and took the last section cautiously. When he's on a lighter fuel load, with Alonso not having to take risks while Lewis was, being quicker over those period of laps seemed quite normal.

I'd say having a car half a second behind you would result you in driving defensively rather than offensively, especially when you know that car behind you is quicker than you. And common sense really, but driving defensively rather than offensively will cost you .2-3 EASILY.

We're going round in circles now, so just to conclude, I think you and others (mainly Ferrari fans) are assuming that Hamilton (1 GP experience) should have been lapping at Alonso's (the 2 x WC) pace even though he was consistently slower in the qualifying sessions, and had more fuel, and had 2 quicker cars up his arse. I think, when you take into account the fact he'd been slower than Alonso all weekend until that point, had more fuel on board, and was under immense pressure (as he said afterwards) means it's quite realisitc he was simply not able to match Alonso. His overall pace in the last stint compared to Alonso and Kimi would suggest Hamilton, if not for his amazing start, had the pace to finish a distance 4th to be honest. Apart from the middle stint where he was the quickest (mainly due to the fact he was the last of the big 4 to pit in, and the first of the big 4 to come back in!), his 1st and 3rd stint, though impressive for a guy in only his 2nd race, weren't as good as his second place made out. It was all about the start really. Some of you make it sound as if that's crazy!

Ranger

11th April 2007, 14:31

Who would you rate above Button by the way? I'm assuming you think there are AT LEAST 5 drivers out there who are better than Button?

I didn't say anything about me not thinking Button was a top 5 driver, but there would be a lot of people on here thinking he's just a whiny little bitch who's no good at all. When you're bogged down in a car that's worth 11th place at best then it is hard to tell.
Having said that, he'd be about 6 or 7 in my mind.

janneppi

11th April 2007, 15:01

We're going round in circles now, indeed

so just to conclude, I think you and others (mainly Ferrari fans) are assuming that Hamilton (1 GP experience) should have been lapping at Alonso's (the 2 x WC) pace
I can't speak for Ferrari fans but i haven't said anything like that.
I've said LH isn't up to Alonsos pace, but was intentionally holding back Ferrari's. IMO he could have gone easily three, four tenths faster but was instructed by the team, most likely before race, if he finds himself ahead one or two red cars to drive a bit slower in some areas to help Alonso. And IMO that's what he did perfectly.

raphael123

11th April 2007, 15:28

Mallen...so who do you rate above Button then? :)

Janeppi. That's fine if you think that. I disagree. Neither of us can prove which one is right. There's no proof to suggest that my interpretation of what happened isn't the 'truth'. As you say, LH isn't up to Alonso's pace just yet. I think he was actually closer to Alonso in Oz than in Malaysia. There's no evidence to suggest he was asked to hold them up.

He was generally it seemed 0.5-6 slower than Alonso, so if you add the fact he had more fuel on board, and was driving defensively to defend from the quicker cars of Massa and Kimi, I don't think 0.4-5 (fuel + defensive driving) is too much a difference to have to assume he must have been told to slow down.

I agree though, it worked out perfectly. Hamiltons start gave McLaren a 1-2.

Ranger

12th April 2007, 03:05

Mallen...so who do you rate above Button then? :)
Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, Heidfeld, possibly Massa and Webber in more or less that order.

raphael123

12th April 2007, 09:25

Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, Heidfeld, possibly Massa and Webber in more or less that order.

That's fair enough. I can see why someone would rate those guys above Button, even if I would have to disagree regarding Heidfeld, Massa and Webber, and at the moment, Hamilton.

Heidfeld has always done a decent job, but I wouldn't say he's better than Button. The fact Jacques Villeneuve managed to match him for most of their time together doesn't say much, especially when you take into account before Button joined BAR, Jacques Villeneuve was still quite highly valued after beating Panis (who had a good rep) quite easily for 2 previous seasons, who was then completely battered by Button.

Massa is good, but he makes too many mistakes. It's hard to remember the mistakes Button makes, they are very rare.

And Webber is good, but Heidfeld was doing a better job during their time as team-mates. I'm still yet to be convinced Webber is good enough for a top team drive, unless he matures later in his career like Hakkinen or someone.

Hamilton obviously has the potential to become a world great it would seem, however to say a guy with 2 races experience is better than someone of Button's quality and experience is pushing it a bit I think. The British press really do hype up their drivers to too great an extent, just so they can bring them back down after!

Ranger

16th April 2007, 00:03

Looks like Dennis will be sitting on his hands for a while - both drivers on 22 points. At this rate he'll probably have to bin team orders, or just work harder with his driver's to get good set-ups.

CharlieJ

16th April 2007, 00:11

Looks like Dennis will be sitting on his hands for a while - both drivers on 22 points. At this rate he'll probably have to bin team orders, or just work harder with his driver's to get good set-ups.
Well he may have to work harder with Fernando. Apart from his natural racing ability, Lewis seems to have a natural talent for setting up the car too, if today was anything to go by. :D

TMorel

16th April 2007, 02:03

As much as I like Lewis and dislilke Fernando, we do have to remember Lewis IS a rookie and WILL have his off days (just as Fernando did today).
How he handles that will be the interesting thing (and I think he'll do just fine) but we've gotta keep our feet on the ground as it is gonna happen.

F1boat

16th April 2007, 08:08

raphael123

16th April 2007, 14:13

I think that he made some mistakes in GP 2 which allowed Nelson jnr almost to catch him.
It makes you wonder how good the next generation is, really.
But yeah, it'll be tough to him to beat Alonso. Not impossible, but hard.

I think this next generation will be the strongest since the Prost Senna Mansell days.

I think the 'Schumacher' era really was the weakest in a long long time. This new generation of the likes of Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg and Button is looking pretty strong!

From 94 right up to 05, apart from Schumacher, and maybe Mika Hakkinen, who would you call was a 'great', in the sense Prost, Senna Mansell Piquet Lauda was?

Rubens? Coulthard? Villeneuve? Hill? Hardly!! And I say that as a Hill fan!

I'm kind of baffled by your comment which suggests this next generation will be weaker than the previous, when the previous was the weakest ever possibly!

ArrowsFA1

16th April 2007, 16:28

Looks like Dennis will be sitting on his hands for a while - both drivers on 22 points. At this rate he'll probably have to bin team orders, or just work harder with his driver's to get good set-ups.

Dennis has made it clear that both Hamilton and Alonso will be given full free reign to gun for the championship, now that it is clear both men are able to win the title.
"We think our position is the right one," he said. "Of course we want to win the world championship, and we want to win both of them.
"But we have the young pretender and the double world champion – and we owe it to both drivers to give them an equal opportunity. The only thing that would make life difficult would be if they started bouncing into each other, but the reality is that (such behaviour) is not in their character."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58169

F1boat

16th April 2007, 17:43

I'm kind of baffled by your comment which suggests this next generation will be weaker than the previous, when the previous was the weakest ever possibly!
WTF? Where did I say that young drivers are weak? I said that if Nelson was able to match Lewis, then obviously we can wonder exactly how good are these new drivers and what are their limits.
About previous generation, I don't think that it was weak. I think that MS was THAT good.

Zico

16th April 2007, 20:08

WTF? Where did I say that young drivers are weak? I said that if Nelson was able to match Lewis, then obviously we can wonder exactly how good are these new drivers and what are their limits.
About previous generation, I don't think that it was weak. I think that MS was THAT good.

Obviously not intended but your comments came across as suggesting a weakness in the newer generation to me too bud..

MS was a great champion but made to look even better by the lack of other true "greats" ... As Raphael says.. pity Mika retired, he would have given him a far tougher challange to his many WDC's than he otherwise faced.

ioan

16th April 2007, 20:43

Obviously not intended but your comments came across as suggesting a weakness in the newer generation to me too bud..

MS was a great champion but made to look even better by the lack of other true "greats" ... As Raphael says.. pity Mika retired, he would have given him a far tougher challange to his many WDC's than he otherwise faced.

MHretired cause he wasn't anymore up to the task. MH giving MS a tougher challenge, go figure. :rolleyes:

Shalafi

16th April 2007, 20:53

MHretired cause he wasn't anymore up to the task. MH giving MS a tougher challenge, go figure. :rolleyes:

MH retired because he was sick of travelling and just living hectic F1-life. He wanted to take it easier, enjoy his life and be with his family. Is that what you ment when saying "he wasnt anymore up to the task"?

Zico

16th April 2007, 21:30

MHretired cause he wasn't anymore up to the task. MH giving MS a tougher challenge, go figure. :rolleyes:

Did he say that and have you a source? I think not. Maybe you should add "IMO" to your above comment.

ioan

16th April 2007, 21:46

MH retired because he was sick of travelling and just living hectic F1-life. He wanted to take it easier, enjoy his life and be with his family. Is that what you ment when saying "he wasnt anymore up to the task"?

Why would someone at once not enjoy what he likes to do most in life? Because he was that good but didn't want to travel anymore???
:laugh:

ArrowsFA1

16th April 2007, 22:10

If wanting to spend time with his family was Mika's reason for quitting F1 then it's his choice. Quite why anyone should find it funny, and disrespect a 2 x WDC in the process, is beyond me :rolleyes:

Equally, the reasons for Mika's departure from F1 have nothing to do with the current McLaren drivers.

Get back on topic please.

Ian McC

16th April 2007, 22:15

I think this next generation will be the strongest since the Prost Senna Mansell days.

I guess 'generation' is the wrong word, we seem to have a new 'generation every year, a year is not really that long for a generation.

ioan

16th April 2007, 22:22

If wanting to spend time with his family was Mika's reason for quitting F1 then it's his choice. Quite why anyone should find it funny, and disrespect a 2 x WDC in the process, is beyond me :rolleyes:

No disrespect to Mika but only to the previous post, but you see as you wish I suppose. :rolleyes:

Shalafi

17th April 2007, 06:46

Why would someone at once not enjoy what he likes to do most in life? Because he was that good but didn't want to travel anymore???
:laugh:

Yes. He didnt want to travel anymore and be away from home all the time. Its a very hectic lifestyle to be an F1 driver. And when one has accomplished all his goals its time to quit when motivation is not there anymore. And that happened to Mika. He has said that many times and wrote that to his book. So you can stop laughing now, you romanian who know everything about everything... ;)

ioan

17th April 2007, 08:16

Yes. He didnt want to travel anymore and be away from home all the time. Its a very hectic lifestyle to be an F1 driver. And when one has accomplished all his goals its time to quit when motivation is not there anymore. And that happened to Mika. He has said that many times and wrote that to his book. So you can stop laughing now, you romanian who know everything about everything... ;)

He wasn't up to the task for 2 seasons in a row, was outperformed by DC, so he lost his motivation, and than he might have considered that it's better go home and spend time with the family (that might be very well true).
But why he did it after missing out twice on the WDC and after being outperformed by DC?
I say it was lack of performance. Others think he could have still be a tough opponent to Michael, but in reality he would have had a hard time keeping it up with the young ones too not only with MS.

PS: It should be written Romanian! ;)

Shalafi

17th April 2007, 08:24

He wasn't up to the task for 2 seasons in a row, was outperformed by DC, so he lost his motivation, and than he might have considered that it's better go home and spend time with the family (that might be very well true).
But why he did it after missing out twice on the WDC and after being outperformed by DC?
I say it was lack of performance. Others think he could have still be a tough opponent to Michael, but in reality he would have had a hard time keeping it up with the young ones too not only with MS.

WTF are you talking about? Now you say that Mika lies... You are ridiculous. Try to get to your head that he was just tired of F1 and wanted a change to his life. Wasnt up to the task? He fought for WDC in 2000! In 2001 at first race he had a bad crash when something broke in his car. After that he told RD that he is having enough...enough of travelling, being away from home, to danger own life etc, when having accomplished all goals that he had. So he decided to retire. Simple as that.

Its got nothing to do about your "lack of performance"-talk.

ioan

17th April 2007, 08:49

WTF are you talking about? Now you say that Mika lies... You are ridiculous. Try to get to your head that he was just tired of F1 and wanted a change to his life. Wasnt up to the task? He fought for WDC in 2000! In 2001 at first race he had a bad crash when something broke in his car. After that he told RD that he is having enough...enough of travelling, being away from home, to danger own life etc, when having accomplished all goals that he had. So he decided to retire. Simple as that.

Its got nothing to do about your "lack of performance"-talk.

I see that my opinion doesn't suit your POV but that doesn't makes me call you ridiculous.
You should learn some manners before expressing yourself in public places!

Shalafi

17th April 2007, 08:52

I see that my opinion doesn't suit your POV but that doesn't makes me call you ridiculous.
You should learn some manners before expressing yourself in public places!

Whatever...

F1boat

17th April 2007, 09:11

Well, I think that Hakkinen was a great driver and just was tired of racing, like Shumacher last year.

raphael123

17th April 2007, 11:14

F1Boat

WTF? Where did I say that young drivers are weak? I said that if Nelson was able to match Lewis, then obviously we can wonder exactly how good are these new drivers and what are their limits.
About previous generation, I don't think that it was weak. I think that MS was THAT good.

You didn't say in as many words, but that was what it came across like. If you meant that the new generation are in actual fact even stronger than previous generations, I take it back.

There's no doubt Michael was a great. He is on par with the likes of Prost Senna etc, maybe even just slightly above! But the competition Michael had from 94-05 (11yrs out of his 15) his biggest competition was from Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Coulthard and Rubens.

Are you trying to suggest that Hill Villeneuve Coulthard and Rubens were in actual fact as good as the likes of Prost, Senna, Piquet and Mansell, and it was just the fact Michael was THAT good then?

If so I think people should keep in mind your way of thinking when in future discussions with yourself :)

Ioan

Why would someone at once not enjoy what he likes to do most in life? Because he was that good but didn't want to travel anymore???

As explained. Mika had a family who he wanted to spend time with. There's no doubt in my mind Michael Schumacher was the better overall driver, but Mika was the closest driver to Michael, even if it was for only 3yrs. On dry weather I think he could pretty much match Michael, maybe even better, but in the wet weather Michael had another gear! The starts was also a strength of Mika's over Michael, because starts became controlled by the car rather than the driver.

I am not aware of your family situation. But not many people seem to fail to understand the reasons as to why Mika retired for family reasons.

Michael, who could have stayed and fought against Raikkonen and Alonso backed out. Do you think he was just scared? Or couldn't handle it? I don't think so :)

raphael123

17th April 2007, 11:18

Also, I don't understand the obsession with this forum in making sure the topic stays on what it was originally intended to. If it gets out of hand with abuse etc, fair enough. But there's nothing wrong in the conversation diverging from what it was initially set up for as long as it stays amicable and reasonably sensible. I've never experienced a forum before where people are forced to stick to a certain topic within a posted topic like this. I guess if that's the way it's always been so, so be it :)

ioan

17th April 2007, 11:49

F1Boat
I am not aware of your family situation. But not many people seem to fail to understand the reasons as to why Mika retired for family reasons.

Well I live half time in France, half time in Austria, part of my family lives in Romania and another part in Hungary! :D
And I don't have the luxury of jetting around the world in a few hours with those I love being able to accompany me! ;)

OmarF1

17th April 2007, 16:15

Mark Webber is da best.

raphael123

18th April 2007, 10:05

Did my reply get deleted moderator?

ioan

18th April 2007, 10:15

Did my reply get deleted moderator?

Welcome to the forum! ;)

F1woman

23rd April 2007, 21:52

All these drivers are great Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, Massa. Alonso know how to win a championships. Kimi and Massa are not just in very good cars their are very good drivers. Hamilton, is still learning and competiting with the very best of F1. Lewis remember is a (Rookie) he still learning. I believe either four can win.

Alonso 22 points
Kimi 22 points
Lewis 22 Points ( Rookie)
Massa 18 points

Valve Bounce

24th April 2007, 01:13

Here's something an admiring fan sent to me but was too shy to post in our forum. :p : Enjoy before pino yanks it:

"Lewis Hamilton may be just 22 years old but the Hertfordshire born McLaren driver has already shown a skill and maturity way above his years. His first race in the premier league of motorsport was an object lesson in maturity and determination, even showing team mate Fernando Alonso a thing or two along the way. Hamilton's drive in Australia was in many ways reminiscent of the debut of the young Spaniard himself in its cool assurance. In other ways, the 18 year old Hertfordshire driver
Showed flashes of a youthful Michael Schumacher in his steely race craft and ferocious pace, belying his young years and humble background. But as I watched the talented 13 year old with baited breath - imagining that my cautious excitement was echoed all across his home county of Hertfordshire - I was also reminded of a boyish talent that had once wowed the F1 circus; I'm talking of course about the great Ayrton Senna. In many ways Hamilton is at least the equal of the late Brazilian maestro, although I think it's also not an exaggeration to say that in
his maiden performance down under the bright 11 year old Hertfordshire star from the humble background also showed flashes of genius that immediately reminded old hands around the paddock of none other than the immortal Juan Manuel Fangio. Yet, even the old master himself might struggle to match the quiet confidence, the calm brilliance, the deceptive but ever present speed of the masterful 20
year old from the humble Hertfordshire background who, on that hot day in Melbourne, wowed the crowds and seasoned Formula 1 critics alike with a performance that was quite simply like nothing we have seen since another young hopeful first came onto a scene not dissimilar to that of international motorsport many, many years ago, going by the name of Jesus Christ. Yes, Lewis Hamilton has undoubtedly assured a ready place in the F1 firmament of stars, he is the future of this sport and the future of Britain and I love him and I want to hold him and kiss him and take care of him and feel his lovely short hair and his lovely strong arms and I want to touch him and caress him and one day I want to have his beautiful babies. At least until he makes a mistake later in the
season, then I might change my mind.

Zico

25th April 2007, 00:20

DimitraF1

25th April 2007, 01:04

sick!!!

Ian McC

25th April 2007, 01:09

Would never of called you shy Valve :rolleyes:

What was the point of that anyway?

F1woman

25th April 2007, 02:29

So what if he want to win didn't alonso say he wanted to win 3 more titles? What wrong with wanting to to Win? No he must just lay down and make alonso beat him. When last did you see Lewis in the spot light? It's the British paper that is talking about a great Rookie. The last championship there was 295 Spainish newpapers and 19 reporters only 42 British newpaper and 2 tv reporters. The Spainish also hype up alonso. I don't like alonso either he so full of him self with his man servant. Lewis coming in second is because he is great and talented.

On the radio communications between the pit and LH at the end of Malaysia, didn't Hamilton make some comment about "now I have to win a race"? LH is definitely cocky for someone who has done just 2 GP's (not a bad thing for an F1 driver, but certainly not endearing), and I can't see him tolerating anything that would keep him from being in the spotlight, at least not for very long. He owes much to Mclaren/Ron Dennis throughout his career, but loyalty in F1 is so often a rare thing.

Alonso is the 2-time defending world champion, and that makes him a known quantity. LH is the number 2 in my book, no matter how good he is.

Mclaren/Ron Dennis isn't known (to the extent of Ferrari, under Michael/Rubens, for example) for giving team orders, IMO. I don't think there was any such thing going on in Malaysia. LH getting into second was because Massa is an impetuous idiot and I've NO idea what he was thinking in swerving well over to the left, clean line or not - he had to defend through the first corner, and he didn't.

Valve Bounce

25th April 2007, 02:43

I didn't know Spain had 295 newspapers - that must make for lotsa bull. :D

F1woman

25th April 2007, 02:55

Here's something an admiring Alonso fan sent to me but was too shy to post in our forum.

"Alonso may be just 25 years old but the Spainish born McLaren driver has already shown a skill and maturity way above his years. His first race in the premier league of motorsport was an object lesson in maturity and determination, even showing everyone in F1 Alonso's with his sexy man Servant drive in Australia was in many ways reminiscent of the debut of the young German himself in its cool assurance. In other ways, the 25 year old Spainish driver
Showed flashes of a youthful Michael Schumacher in his steely race craft and ferocious pace, belying his young years and humble background. But as I watched the talented 25 year old with baited breath - imagining that my cautious excitement was echoed all across his home country of Spain - I was also reminded of a boyish talent that had once wowed the F1 circus; I'm talking of course about the great Ayrton Senna. In many ways alonso is at least the equal of the late Brazilian maestro, although I think it's also not an exaggeration to say that in
his maiden performance down under the bright 25 year old Spainish star from the humble background also showed flashes of genius that immediately reminded old hands around the paddock of none other than the immortal Juan Manuel Fangio. Yet, even the old master himself might struggle to match the quiet confidence, the calm brilliance, the deceptive but ever present speed of the masterful 20
year old from the humble Spainish background who, on that hot day in Melbourne, wowed the crowds and seasoned Formula 1 critics alike with a performance that was quite simply like nothing we have seen since another young hopeful first came onto a scene not dissimilar to that of international motorsport many, many years ago, going by the name of Jesus Christ. Yes, alonso has undoubtedly assured a ready place in the F1 firmament of stars, he is the future of this sport and the future of spain and I love him and I want to hold him and kiss him and take care of him with his maids and feel his lovely long hair and his lovely strong arms and I want to touch him and caress him and one day I want to have his male maid sacked. At least until he makes a mistake later in the season, then I might change my mind. :D :D

F1woman

25th April 2007, 02:58

I didn't know Spain had 295 newspapers - that must make for lotsa bull. :D

Now you know, it was on BBC channel 116. The BBC reporter counted them and Alonso was in the centre with his male servant.

rlenis

25th April 2007, 02:59

WTF?

Valve Bounce

25th April 2007, 03:02

I didn't know the BBC could count to 10, let alone 295 :D

Ian McC

25th April 2007, 22:07

he so full of him self with his man servant.

:eek:

I think they may be losing something in translation!

Valve Bounce

25th April 2007, 22:41

:eek:

I think they may be losing something in translation!

Quite an astonishing revelation. I hestitated to comment for fear of being banned. :D

Zico

25th April 2007, 23:48

Quite an astonishing revelation. I hestitated to comment for fear of being banned. :D

Nothing revalatory about that.. He/she/it said he was full of himself not his man servant... cough, splutter.. I think this thread should stop now before the truth gets bent (NPI) ;) or manipulated any further.

Ranger

13th May 2007, 12:53

Bumped for Spanish GP.

Hamilton is assured that he is heavier than Alonso. Should be very interesting to see how the race pans out for both drivers.

Valve Bounce

13th May 2007, 13:16

Bumped for Spanish GP.

Hamilton is assured that he is heavier than Alonso. Should be very interesting to see how the race pans out for both drivers.

Que? :confused:

Ian McC

13th May 2007, 16:04

Another good race for Lewis, Alonso paid for that rash passing attempt.

ioan

13th May 2007, 16:28

Another good race for Lewis, Alonso paid for that rash passing attempt.

Passing attempt or not FA didn't have the pace to keep up with LH today.

Ian McC

13th May 2007, 17:10

Passing attempt or not FA didn't have the pace to keep up with LH today.

Unless something happened to the car in the off it was surprising. I would think he maybe a worried man tonight.

jens

13th May 2007, 17:36

I suppose that Alonso must feel quite worried now and he certainly didn't look happy at the press conference. If a rookie beats him even on his home soil, where he has usually been quick, then there has to be a lot of thinking to do... So Lewis has beaten the double World Champion on circuits, where he has got experience (he has raced at Sakhir and Barcelona in GP2). Will this trend continue?

Alonso indeed complained about car handling after that contact with Massa, but I think that even this does not convince him fully, why Hamilton couldn't be beaten today...

e2mtt

13th May 2007, 18:48

Despite the fact that Alonso was hired as the #1 driver, I doubt there is anyone in McLaren that minds Hamilton being ahead. Hamilton is British (like McLaren), and he has been contracted to McLaren for most of his career. If he can bring McLaren a WDC ahead of Alonso, everyone but Alonso will be estatic. In any F1 team, the #1 driver is the one with the better chance of winning races & being WDC. Right now, Hamilton is ahead in WDC points, so he just might be #1.

F1woman

13th May 2007, 18:50

Alonso isn't use to having a team mate that can match him. His last team mate was average. Now there are four great drivers in F1. I am a Lewis fan and he the real deal.

Alonso
Lewis
Massa
Kimi

Zico

13th May 2007, 20:12

Maybe Im reading too much into it but did anyone else notice FA's body language after the race?... from the TV footage it looked as though they hardly said a word to each other and was as if he couldnt bear even looking at him.. then on the podium FA had his back turned on Lewis the whole time while celebrating.

Thrown the rattle out of the pram I think. :)

ioan

13th May 2007, 20:54

. then on the podium FA had his back turned on Lewis the whole time while celebrating.

You were expecting him to look straight into the champagne shower Lewis was sending towards him? ;)

F1boat

13th May 2007, 21:00

I really feel for Fernando right now. After winning two championships and beating the greatest driver in history in 2006, he expected to carry his winning form in McLaren and to dominate his young and inexperienced teammate and in the last two race Hamilton simply humiliated him. And he wasn't even winner last year in Barcelona (in GP 2), a track in which Alonso should dominate.
After Bahrain I was sure that Alonso will bounce back, I hope that he can recover after today, even if I am a Ferrari fan.

kub24

13th May 2007, 21:03

Passing attempt or not FA didn't have the pace to keep up with LH today.

I think you should change your signature to "I always make non backed up claims". How come FA didnt have the pace to keep with LH? The gap between them in the first stint opened up because of failed passing attempt and because of Raikkonen between them. And FA tyres probably wasnt in the good condition after excursion on the grass. So the first stint isnt the good indication of their pace.

In the second stint FA lost about 5 seconds (the gap between them was about 10 seconds after first pitstop), but regained them in the last stint. And keep in mind that during the second stint FA was on harder tyres and with 4 laps more fuel, and in the last stint, where LH was on harder tyres, they were equally fuelled, so both these stints combined FA showed better pace than LH.

Garry Walker

13th May 2007, 21:31

I think you should change your signature to "I always make non backed up claims". How come FA didnt have the pace to keep with LH? The gap between them in the first stint opened up because of failed passing attempt and because of Raikkonen between them. And FA tyres probably wasnt in the good condition after excursion on the grass. So the first stint isnt the good indication of their pace.

In the second stint FA lost about 5 seconds (the gap between them was about 10 seconds after first pitstop), but regained them in the last stint. And keep in mind that during the second stint FA was on harder tyres and with 4 laps more fuel, and in the last stint, where LH was on harder tyres, they were equally fuelled, so both these stints combined FA showed better pace than LH.

I dont understand how anyone in this world can say that Hamilton was slower than Alonso at Barcelona.
Face it - Your boy was made look stupid by Hamilton.

FAlonso

13th May 2007, 22:31

I dont understand how anyone in this world can say that Hamilton was slower than Alonso at Barcelona.
Face it - Your boy was made look stupid by Hamilton.

It´s because of remarks like these, and many others alike, that I've chosen, a long time ago, to only discuss things on the rally forums. Because there 9 times out of 10 people actually discuss. Here 9 times out of 10 people act like idiots. Even more so when the discussion in question is about "favorite drivers". So I won´t give my opinion about Alonso vs Hamilton, or Massa vs Raikkonen or whatever because it´s not worth it. So this being a "one off" I shall return to the rally forums and just pop here once in a while to go through the opinions and discussions which are sensible and civilized. Fortunately there are some, still.

Shalafi

13th May 2007, 22:50

It´s because of remarks like these, and many others alike, that I've chosen, a long time ago, to only discuss things on the rally forums. Because there 9 times out of 10 people actually discuss. Here 9 times out of 10 people act like idiots. Even more so when the discussion in question is about "favorite drivers". So I won´t give my opinion about Alonso vs Hamilton, or Massa vs Raikkonen or whatever because it´s not worth it. So this being a "one off" I shall return to the rally forums and just pop here once in a while to go through the opinions and discussions which are sensible and civilized. Fortunately there are some, still.

There are 4 drivers with skill and opportunity to be WDC in 2007. Lets enjoy this year and fight between them...may the best man win. And all the "losers" are still great drivers. Its wonderful to be F1 fan at the moment.

Zico

13th May 2007, 22:56

What you say is so true FAlonso, we rarely get the same on the WRC forum... We generally have muchos respect for all drivers, well apart from one single person who hates Sebastien! :D There doesnt seem to be a lot of respect for drivers on here.

Im more a Hamilton fan than anything else.. but Im sorry Garry, LH was better overall and his performance as a rookie was once again amazing but he didnt exactly make FA look "stupid" as you say.

And.. Well said Shalafi :)

e2mtt

13th May 2007, 23:52

truefan72

14th May 2007, 01:04

Passing attempt or not FA didn't have the pace to keep up with LH today.

yes agreed

truefan72

14th May 2007, 01:14

I dont understand how anyone in this world can say that Hamilton was slower than Alonso at Barcelona.
Face it - Your boy was made look stupid by Hamilton.

I concur

please, Alosno got beat F&S

Plus in the third stint with hard tires, Fa was not lapping that siginifictly quicker than LH compared to the comparison in the second stint.

Lets not forget that in the first two laps of the thrid stint LH was lapping cars, then settled into a consistent gap, before easing off at the end and FA pushing it in a futile effort.

LH clearly outpaced and outperformed FA. This is doubly humiliating due this being FA's home GP. Getting beat and outclassed by your rookie ( but now bonifide challenger and WDC leader) teammate in your home GP in front of the whole nation, and world to see is a bitter pill to swallow. He had an entire month and extra practice on the track and it's new configuration ( since LH was kept out in favor of PDLR in testing) to bounce back from Bahrein and he got beat even worse.

Yes, I say LH is in his head and proving to be his biggest challenge in 2007.

Valve Bounce

14th May 2007, 05:25

Unless something happened to the car in the off it was surprising. I would think he maybe a worried man tonight.
At one stage, the commentator for Formula1.com did mention that bits were hanging off Alonso's car.

PSfan

14th May 2007, 05:43

At one stage, the commentator for Formula1.com did mention that bits were hanging off Alonso's car.

Speedtv actually showed a chunk of something dragging under Alonso's car...

Also Alonso wasn't to happy with Massa:

Fernando Alonso has made it clear that he considers Felipe Massa at fault for the first corner touch in Spain that sent the McLaren driver off the road.

Alonso said that the legacy of the incident spoiled his race: “I think the car was damaged all through the race and unfortunately it was a little bit more difficult to drive. We also took the gamble when we took the prime tyre in the first stop, just to see if there was some advantage there because we needed a miracle after being third, a little bit too far behind the first two people on lap 15 or lap 16, so we took the gamble and it was not fantastic.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/37334/

wmcot

14th May 2007, 08:05

It's pretty hard to say that a 2 time WDC finishing on the podium of a race was made to look "stupid." FA is still one of the top 4 drivers out there. IF he starts to let LH get to him, I think his season will go downhill, but there are still a lot of races to go.

However, the "blaming" of Massa for finishing his race could very well be a sign that things are beginning to turn nasty in Alonso's head. We've seen it before with Renault "sabotage" complaints, so let's hope all that doesn't happen again.

It could get ugly...

raphael123

14th May 2007, 09:46

Sabotaged? I think that was the media twisting his words.

Hamilton and Alonso were pretty much equal all weekend. I think had Alonso not lost position at the start, he would have beaten Hamilton, and as he did, he didn't. As people who have actually read up about it, Alonso had a damaged car, and knowing he didn't have the pace, the strategy, or the track to enable him to catch Hamilton, let alone overtake him. Therefore after Kimi had retired, I think it really was just a case to drive the car home and get as many points as possible.

I wouldn't say that Hamilton made Alonso look stupid, at least not to the people who know about F1. The fact Alonso had an incident on lap 1, and had to contend with a damaged car for the entire race, and still only finished 10sec or so behind Hamilton, isn't that bad of a result, not considering how strong Hamilton has been in comparison to Alonso, apart from Malaysia where he was quite a bit slower than FA.

Ranger

14th May 2007, 09:51

raphael123

14th May 2007, 10:43

jens

14th May 2007, 11:42

raphael123

14th May 2007, 11:49

One more thought. At Renault Alonso really accustomized to being a clear No.1 driver and getting the main attention. The team was built around him. Now it's a different story at McLaren. He does not get as much attention as he has used to and he has to share all the privileges with a blindingly quick team-mate. Maybe he feels a bit uncomfortable in that new environment, which slightly may have affected his confidence (like the off-weekend in Bahrain)?

Attention from the team? Or the media? If you mean team, in what way did he get more attention from the team at Renault, and in what way doesn't he now at McLaren?

And what are these 'privileges' you talk about?

On the subject of confidence, I think it was seeing Massa back down in Malaysia which encouraged Alonso to stick it out on the outside, knowing he'd then have the inside line. However Massa's harsh reply, I think could also mean Alonso won't be quite so keen on trying that kind of move again! If a car is alongside you, do you think the other driver should be allowed to simply squeeze you onto the grass?

I know the way you treat drivers can have a great impact on future dices with the other drivers. Alonso stated I think in 2005 he much preferred racing against Kimi than JPM, because with JPM you knew he wouldn't be scared to put you on the grass or have some sort of contact!

Dave B

14th May 2007, 12:08

Speedtv actually showed a chunk of something dragging under Alonso's car...

Also Alonso wasn't to happy with Massa:

Fernando Alonso has made it clear that he considers Felipe Massa at fault for the first corner touch in Spain that sent the McLaren driver off the road.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/37334/

I think the Speed article may be twisting Alonso's words in a way he was very careful to avoid. Look at the transcript of the press conference (http://www.formula1.com/race/news/6089/773.html), and his reponse to being asked for a third time about the incident.

Q: (Paolo Ianieri – La Gazzetta dello Sport) Fernando, do you think that Felipe was not too correct in that first corner?

FA: No, I don’t mean that. You will keep asking me until I say something wrong and I will not say. I think what I mean is that it was a very risky point in the race and I nearly finished my race in the first corner, unfortunately, when I felt that I went into the corner a little in front of the other car.

Of course Fernando wasn't happy about it, but there's no evidence he regards it as anything other than a racing incident - despite the press trying to stir up a story.

Georgeboi999

14th May 2007, 12:10

+1
LH is quite fast anyway but when he need to play tatical he can.

jens

14th May 2007, 12:30

Attention from the team? Or the media? If you mean team, in what way did he get more attention from the team at Renault, and in what way doesn't he now at McLaren?

And what are these 'privileges' you talk about?

It's pretty hard to explain. At Renault it at least seemed that he has the No.1 preference and about privileges - I guess that team concentrated more time for his car preparations for the race. It could especially be seen in 2005 - it was Fisichella, who usually struggled with problems as Alonso had almost a problem-free season. He was Flavio's "golden boy". May he miss that environment?

Attention from the media may also have some effect - especially as he is now partnered by a team-mate, who is called the next "big thing". And not long time ago it was him being in the same role...

raphael123

14th May 2007, 13:03

It's pretty hard to explain. At Renault it at least seemed that he has the No.1 preference and about privileges - I guess that team concentrated more time for his car preparations for the race. It could especially be seen in 2005 - it was Fisichella, who usually struggled with problems as Alonso had almost a problem-free season. He was Flavio's "golden boy". May he miss that environment?

Attention from the media may also have some effect - especially as he is now partnered by a team-mate, who is called the next "big thing". And not long time ago it was him being in the same role...

Could you be any more specific please? :)
What does 'no.1 preference mean exactly?

And then privileges, you think the team spend more time concentrating on his car preparation for the race than his team-mate? What makes you think that?

Don't both drivers have a team of mechanics, it's like two teams within a team. At least thats how I understood. Or are you suggesting Alonso gets more mechanics, or Fisichella's mechanics use to work on Alonso's car rather than Fisi's?

jens

14th May 2007, 14:18

Or are you suggesting Alonso gets more mechanics, or Fisichella's mechanics use to work on Alonso's car rather than Fisi's?

One example from the history. This is what Prost has said about 1989 Italian Grand Prix:

Senna had two cars, with 20 people around him, and I had just one car, with maybe four or five mechanics working for me. I was absolutely alone, in one part of the garage, and that was perhaps the toughest weekend of my racing career.

Then yes, I suspect a similar scenario about Alonso and Fisichella. The team tried to make sure that Alonso's car worked perfectly and therefore, especially during the first half of the 2005 season, the performance of Fisi's car suffered.

ioan

14th May 2007, 14:41

To add to that he took a gamble with the hard tyres, which as we found out from Massa and Hamiltons performance on the hard tyres in the final stint, it was definately the wrong decision by McLaren. However, with nothing much to lose, I think I would have done the same thing.

Sooner or later he had to run on hard tires, and you would want to do it when you have the heavier car, so no gamble there.

Why were Felipe and Lewis slower on the hard tires? Because it was the last stint and the positions were pretty much settled!

ioan

14th May 2007, 15:17

Alonso must be a bit rattled if the teams needs to make this kind of public statements about the situation, to help his morale:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58814

raphael123

14th May 2007, 15:38

One example from the history. This is what Prost has said about 1989 Italian Grand Prix:

Then yes, I suspect a similar scenario about Alonso and Fisichella. The team tried to make sure that Alonso's car worked perfectly and therefore, especially during the first half of the 2005 season, the performance of Fisi's car suffered.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take that seriously. Your stating you think Fisichella was given fewer mechanics than Alonso during their time together, because nearly 20yrs ago that's what happened with a pair of drivers, who weren't even in the same team (as FA and GF). I thought maybe you had something concrete, not some quote from 20yrs back!! lol

raphael123

14th May 2007, 15:40

Sooner or later he had to run on hard tires, and you would want to do it when you have the heavier car, so no gamble there.

Why were Felipe and Lewis slower on the hard tires? Because it was the last stint and the positions were pretty much settled!

Please tell me your kidding :rolleyes:

Your trying to tell me that using the hard tyres for the middle stint is the best way strategically? :dozey:

truefan72

14th May 2007, 15:57

raphael123

14th May 2007, 16:03

raphael123

what is the point of your dumb argument, it is clear even to my blind grandmother that Alonso got #1 status and treatment at Renault and consequenlty Fisi suffered from that ( along with his lack of guile) in fact it is hard to give examples of when NOT he got preferential treatment over there.

Thanks for the insult? I wonder if you'll get warned by the moderators :laugh:

Ok, so Alonso got #1 status and treatment at Renault - Can you be a bit more specific?

That's all I'm asking. If it's that obvious maybe you could tell me? :)

Now at McClaren, he did get a bit more attention earlier on but now has settled into equal driver status in the team. He cannot anymore expect the entire operation to revolve around him. The ironic thing about this situation is that at the end of the day it boils down to performance and not the 10's of millions of dollars between their two contracts.

I don't think he ever did expect the entire operation to revolve around him, and I don't think it ever has.

If FA were blowing away his teammate and winning 3-4 first race like last year in the best car in F1, this thread would'nt even exist. But it so happens that, not only, is his teamate doing a better job than him, is more consistent and faster, podiumed in all the races so for, but is also the current WDC leader.

This surely has an effect om him and his status in the team, which is manifesting in frustration and potentiall some nastinensss down the road.

I agree with that. Alonso needs to up his performance. I don't think Hamilton was really that much better than Alonso this weekend, I think they were equal, but in Bahrain Hamilton thrashed Alonso, similar to how Alonso thrashed Hamilton. The difference is Alonso is a 2 x WC, while Hamilton is the driver entering his 5th F1 race.

ioan

14th May 2007, 16:04

Please tell me your kidding :rolleyes:

Your trying to tell me that using the hard tyres for the middle stint is the best way strategically? :dozey:

If the stint is much longer (= the car is heavier) than it is the way to go. Or maybe you know better and think that a light car on hard tires would be better, or maybe a heavy car on softer tires would be even better? :dozey:

Dave B

14th May 2007, 16:57

Alonso must be a bit rattled if the teams needs to make this kind of public statements about the situation, to help his morale:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58814

Was this a statement put out by McLaren, or was Martin Whitmarsh simply responding to questions asked by journalists?

I strongly suspect it's the latter, and that's hardly evidence of Alonso being under pressure.

ioan

14th May 2007, 17:34

Was this a statement put out by McLaren, or was Martin Whitmarsh simply responding to questions asked by journalists?

I strongly suspect it's the latter, and that's hardly evidence of Alonso being under pressure.

Why the need to answer with such volume of words something that you suppose it isn't true?
Those questions gave them the chance to reassure their driver and they did it in detail.

aryan

14th May 2007, 17:51

It´s because of remarks like these, and many others alike, that I've chosen, a long time ago, to only discuss things on the rally forums. Because there 9 times out of 10 people actually discuss. Here 9 times out of 10 people act like idiots.

I feel for you. Still, it's not as bad as 9 out of ten, more like 3 or 4 out of 10, and once you put a fair number of them on your ignore list, the place becomes rather civilised ;)

raphael123

14th May 2007, 20:11

If the stint is much longer (= the car is heavier) than it is the way to go. Or maybe you know better and think that a light car on hard tires would be better, or maybe a heavy car on softer tires would be even better? :dozey:

Ioan. Watch the races. It's quite clear the teams use the hard tyres for the final stint, which is usually the shorter stint. The middle stint is the longest.

Am I alone in realising this? No one seems to have picked Ioan up on this :dozey:

ioan

14th May 2007, 20:28

No one seems to have picked Ioan up on this :dozey:

Maybe they aren't interested about this topic! :p :

wmcot

14th May 2007, 21:09

Sabotaged? I think that was the media twisting his words.

That's why the word "sabotaged" was in quotes. It was implied by some of the comments, but never stated outright.

The main problem with this whole thread is that none of us can know what Alonso feels. We can only watch his actions and listen to his words. How he feels will become more clear as the season progresses. I suspect that if he gets a couple of wins, he'll be happy. If Hamilton starts winning, we'll have to see how Alonso reacts.

It's too early to make judgements base on one incident. I doubt that either driver was particularly happy about the first corner incident...

Flat.tyres

15th May 2007, 11:42

re. the tyre issue.

Data in testing implied that there was not a significant delta between the hard and soft once the track was rubbered in. this has been seen in previous GP when the tyres in the last stint seem to come to the track and can even be beneficial. this data was confirmed in testing but unfortunatly it was a bit warmer when testing. there was a small drop off on performance between the soft and the hards on the cooler temps.

As for FA, he is a bit rattled at the moment but not in the way people think. I think you wioll find he's pissed at himself more than worried about anyone else. a couple of poinmts lost to lewis niggles him but not as much as not winning and getting beaten. he'll beat himself up and come back on fire in monaco. could be a real **** or bust GP

wedge

15th May 2007, 17:34

Alonso feeling the heat:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=39239

On Five Live's podcast, Jonathon Noble suggested Alonso needs re-assurance from Ron Dennis.

PS. Love him or hate him, JA's verdict is always a good after every GP.

F1boat

15th May 2007, 17:42

He is pretty biased, though.

Flat.tyres

16th May 2007, 12:26

James is a very knowledgeable man and a good journo with a family heritage in motorsport. problem is that hes a **** commentator. i liked the article and it confirms what i heard about tyres.

as for alonso, he had a big group hug a couple of weeks ago with MaClaren. all the heads met with him and reassured him of their committment. he really needs to get his head in order a bit more and focus on the job and not his team mate. I think he will be a bit more pumped at monoco which might not be the best place for it. its not exactly his favourite circuit as it is.