FBI & NSA have direct tap into largest Internet servers where agents can data collect

[markabilly]

The highly classified program, designed to look at international communications and run by the National Security Agency and the FBI, can peek at video, audio, photos, emails and other documents, including connection logs that let the government track people, according to the sources, who spoke with NBC News on condition of anonymity. According to the Post, which reported that it had obtained an internal NSA presentation on the PRISM operation, the tool was so successful that it was the top contributor to President Barack Obama's daily intelligency brief — with 1,477 articles last year.
The participating technology companies were a virtual "Who's Who" of Silicon Valley, including Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple, the Post said. Sources: US intelligence agencies tap servers of top Internet companies - Open Channel (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18809021-sources-us-intelligence-agencies-tap-servers-of-top-internet-companies?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=3) Meanwhile, Chinese hackers can hack all the highest and most secret military information for weapons systems....

[schmenke]

Yawn...

[Starter]

Not to cross threads here, but this is exactly why I am loath to give up my second amendment rights.

[race aficionado]

Big Brother is here to stay and he has been listening for a long, long while.

.... also reading.

Hi big bro'!!!!

[Gregor-y]

I can't say I'm surprised ever since I got a 'loyalty card' from the supermarket back in 1997. Pretty much anything and everything electronic is out there and available to anyone bothering the make the connections. Any sense of data privacy is just not practical when both government and corporations (more than government, though the two seem to be blending in many ways) have an interest in what you do and how you do it.

And stockpiling a bunch of small arms in your house isn't going to do jack squat about it, so there's no reason to discuss it.

[ioan]

No surprise there.
On the other hand you have the US corporations lobbying the EU to change the data security laws that he EU has enforced since a while!
Face it, our personal information is highly valuable to both government and corporations and there are only 2 ways to keep your privacy:
1. Don't use anything electronic and connected to the internet
2. get rid of the government and the corporations that are controlling the government

[BDunnell]

Not to cross threads here, but this is exactly why I am loath to give up my second amendment rights.

Rights that have done bugger all good in terms of helping prevent the authorities from doing this sort of thing in the first place. It saddens me that your first reaction to such a story should be 'I'm glad I'm allowed to have a gun'.

[Starter]

Face it, our personal information is highly valuable to both government and corporations .....
And that's why you should never trust either.

2. get rid of the government and the corporations that are controlling the government
Getting rid of them is not the answer. Keeping them on a very short leash is.

[BDunnell]

Getting rid of them is not the answer. Keeping them on a very short leash is.

In that you and your countrymen, no matter how many guns you may own, have seemingly failed. Your answer only seems to be the possession of weaponry. It blatantly hasn't worked.

[ShiftingGears]

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized


In that you and your countrymen, no matter how many guns you may own, have seemingly failed. Your answer only seems to be the possession of weaponry. It blatantly hasn't worked.

If only US citizens were half as vocal about defending their Fourth Amendment Rights as they were for their Second Amendment Rights.

[markabilly]

Rights that have done bugger all good in terms of helping prevent the authorities from doing this sort of thing in the first place. It saddens me that your first reaction to such a story should be 'I'm glad I'm allowed to have a gun'.






If only US citizens were half as vocal about defending their Fourth Amendment Rights as they were for their Second Amendment Rights. For all of you pious holier than thou Brits
The Guardian said it had seen documents showing how the British signals intelligence agency GCHQ has had access to America’s “PRISM” electronic eavesdropping system since at least June 2010, adding that the data had generated nearly 200 intelligence reports over the past year.It’s not clear whether British officials would be subject to the same restrictions with respect to their own citizens, and the traditionally close links between GCHQ and the NSA have already worried some in the U.K. who fear that British spies may be eavesdropping on their own citizens through American espionage programs. :rolleyes: Newspaper: British government has access to Internet giants (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/newspaper-british-government-has-access-to-internet-giants-data-via-us-spy-agency/2013/06/07/33217d60-cf7e-11e2-8573-3baeea6a2647_story.html) And it seems there may be some laws that are already in place for the British gov't to do it without without the restrictions that are suppose to be in place in the USA-of course, given the types of folks populating the islands, it might be a good idea and after all, since they ain't got no guns in their homes, they can't do nothing about it anyway :D Meanwhile I think I will head over to have a vacation in Chernobyl---might pick up some spare nuke waste for the kool-aide special, to give it a special glow in the dark---
Believe it or not, you can take a trip to the site of the worst nuclear power plant accident in history. That's just one of the intriguing facts (http://msnvideo.msn.com/?videoid=2ba4dc45-f012-4f5c-997d-d7640aebbd35&channelindex=1&from=en-us_msnhp) about the deserted zone http://col.stb00.s-msn.com/i/2B/C94E9D634CDF2B1CF04785E12DBE9F.jpg http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=1&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/2ba4dc45-f012-4f5c-997d-d7640aebbd35 And of course, if the Chinese can hack their way into the absolute top secret pentagon US computers, the email and other stuff, should be real easy for them

[anthonyvop]

But wait.


I thought President Hope & Change was going to bring a new era of openness and transparency? Didn't he close GITMO? Make the world love us again? End Terrorism with appeasement? Repeal the Patriot act?


All he has done is raised taxes. screwed the economy, use the IRS to attack the political opposition and institute the single largest incidence of domestic spying in the history of the world all the while blaming it either on Bush or Freedom of speech!

[Rollo]

I'm kind of sure that when you sign up to various email providers, Facebook, Twitter etc. that you already agree to have your email and information provided.

To wit - from Yahoo!'s Privacy Policy:
http://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/
• We provide the information to trusted partners who work on behalf of or with Yahoo! under confidentiality agreements. These companies may use your personal information to help Yahoo! communicate with you about offers from Yahoo! and our marketing partners. However, these companies do not have any independent right to share this information.
• We have a parent's permission to share the information if the user is a child under age 13. See Children's Privacy & Family Accounts for more information about our privacy practices for children under 13 .
• We respond to subpoenas, court orders, or legal process, or to establish or exercise our legal rights or defend against legal claims.
• We believe it is necessary to share information in order to investigate, prevent, or take action regarding illegal activities, suspected fraud, situations involving potential threats to the physical safety of any person, violations of Yahoo!'s terms of use, or as otherwise required by law.

Call the Fourth Amendment if you like but if you've already consented via the Terms of Service for those service providers to give out the information to government agencies, you can't very well complain because you've been too dog ignorant to read through those same Terms of Service.

[Rollo]

All he has done is raised taxes. screwed the economy,

I'm sure that Wall St and the banks played no part in that. Nor the 316 million people of the United States who collectively haven't paid enough tax since January 8, 1835 when the national debt was zero; even if government spending was cut to ZERO is would still takes more than two decades of current taxation collection rates to pay it off.

[janneppi]

Some it-security expert made a pretty sensible comment about privacy in social media. If you're concerned about someone getting access to your personal information, you shouldn't write/upload anything you wouldn't put in open postcard through the normal post office.

Same with commercial cloud services, I don't expect them really to be private data storages.

As for this post, it most likely goes from Finland to Sweden and then to where ever Mark's servers are. And Sweden monitors all internet traffic that goes through their country.

Heja Madde, Heja Sverige! :D

[Mark]

Servers are in France. So subject to EU / French law.

[Dave B]

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized



If only US citizens were half as vocal about defending their Fourth Amendment Rights as they were for their Second Amendment Rights.
The constitution is akin to the Bible: people cherrypick the parts they want to take literally, and hold sacred, but conveniently ignore the parts which don't fit their lifestyles.

Regarding the hoovering up of personal data, the only surprise is that people are surprised. I'd always assumed that everything I type online is subject to scrutiny, even if it's supposedly private. Hello to everybody in Cheltenham, by the way :wave:

[webberf1]

And when the American public in their apathy lets this all boil over without prompting any real change or regaining any meaning to the freedom of privacy, will they finally accept that the 2nd Ammendment is completely redundant and that no one takes it seriously?
Of course they won't. But one can only dream.

[webberf1]

Not to cross threads here, but this is exactly why I am loath to give up my second amendment rights.
Don't fool yourself, you and your fellow Americans already have given them up.

Isn't about now the time you were supposed to lock n' load and march on Washington? When you realise the government is actively taking away your freedom without any input from you?

No? Of course not. Cos no one takes the 2nd Ammendment seriously. Now sit back down in your armchair and have another bud light.

EDIT: And believe me, I'm not engaging in any high horse, "LOL @ Amerrikuh" BS. Because I'm just as concerned as you. I am certain that sectors of my own government are just as interested in engaging in this secretive, undemocratic crap as what parts of your government are. And it worries me! All im saying is that there is a valuable discourse that needs to take place in whether 2nd ammendment rights actually exist or not if people never ever use them (even when they're supposed to be used)!

[webberf1]

And that's why you should never trust either.

Getting rid of them is not the answer. Keeping them on a very short leash is.
And the point is you HAVEN'T been keeping them on a short leash at all. Your government's leash is as long as they want to be. They grant themselves these powers to spy and destroy your freedom of privacy, and you do nothing about it! So please, for the sake of not killing everyone's braincells here, don't try to bulls**t us like as if the 2nd Ammendment has made ANY difference at all to the way your government operates. It doesn't exist.

[webberf1]

For all of you pious holier than thou Brits :rolleyes: Newspaper: British government has access to Internet giants (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/newspaper-british-government-has-access-to-internet-giants-data-via-us-spy-agency/2013/06/07/33217d60-cf7e-11e2-8573-3baeea6a2647_story.html) And it seems there may be some laws that are already in place for the British gov't to do it without without the restrictions that are suppose to be in place in the USA-of course, given the types of folks populating the islands, it might be a good idea and after all, since they ain't got no guns in their homes, they can't do nothing about it anyway :D Meanwhile I think I will head over to have a vacation in Chernobyl---might pick up some spare nuke waste for the kool-aide special, to give it a special glow in the dark--- http://col.stb00.s-msn.com/i/2B/C94E9D634CDF2B1CF04785E12DBE9F.jpg MSN Entertainment - (http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=1&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/2ba4dc45-f012-4f5c-997d-d7640aebbd35) And of course, if the Chinese can hack their way into the absolute top secret pentagon US computers, the email and other stuff, should be real easy for them
I can't speak for other forumers, but I for one am NOT being holier than thou. I agree that it is very concerning that this stuff is happening all throughout the Western, so-called democratic world. This is not just something for Americans to be concerned about, it affects all of us!

[Starter]

And the point is you HAVEN'T been keeping them on a short leash at all. Your government's leash is as long as they want to be. They grant themselves these powers to spy and destroy your freedom of privacy, and you do nothing about it! So please, for the sake of not killing everyone's braincells here, don't try to bulls**t us like as if the 2nd Ammendment has made ANY difference at all to the way your government operates. It doesn't exist.
You're wrong there. The revolution has already taken place a few days ago. The new group did not want to bother anyone over it, so there is a complete news blackout in place. We now control everything. Obama and other former leaders are still shown before the cameras to provide a sense of stability and if they step out of line they're toast. We'll allow the truth to come out in our own good time.
:eek: :rolleyes:

[Starter]

Don't fool yourself, you and your fellow Americans already have given them up.

Isn't about now the time you were supposed to lock n' load and march on Washington? When you realise the government is actively taking away your freedom without any input from you?

No? Of course not. Cos no one takes the 2nd Ammendment seriously. Now sit back down in your armchair and have another bud light.

EDIT: And believe me, I'm not engaging in any high horse, "LOL @ Amerrikuh" BS. Because I'm just as concerned as you. I am certain that sectors of my own government are just as interested in engaging in this secretive, undemocratic crap as what parts of your government are. And it worries me! All im saying is that there is a valuable discourse that needs to take place in whether 2nd ammendment rights actually exist or not if people never ever use them (even when they're supposed to be used)!
Going for the guns should not be the first line of defense for anyone not in a potentially life threatening situation. The truth of all this is just coming out and there are processes in place to make corrections through congressional and legal means. It's only after ALL available avenues have been addressed through the legislature and the courts that alternatives should be considered. The existence of the second amendment makes some of those alternatives possible.

[ioan]

And that's why you should never trust either.

Getting rid of them is not the answer. Keeping them on a very short leash is.

You can't do that cause they make and enforce the rules.
Getting rid of your elected representatives every time they step over the limit is the way to keep them on their tows.
As for getting rid of corporations, that would solve many of the issue that we are facing nowadays.

[airshifter]

Going for the guns should not be the first line of defense for anyone not in a potentially life threatening situation. The truth of all this is just coming out and there are processes in place to make corrections through congressional and legal means. It's only after ALL available avenues have been addressed through the legislature and the courts that alternatives should be considered. The existence of the second amendment makes some of those alternatives possible.

This is what really makes me laugh when people question the 2nd amendment rights. They act as if the first time a politician steps out of line we should blast them, otherwise the right has no meaning.

[Roamy]

Well I will add a funny story to this. About 5 yrs ago I am talking via email to my friend in Mexico. He tells me he has a 30ft boat for sale at around 75k and sends me a picture. The boat was worth about 35K max. So I sent him a email back and said Ok I will buy it but where to you have the cocaine stashed. The following day the police showed up and searched the boat. 5years ago and a true story!! So anytime you are talking or emailing joking about guns drugs or explosives be sure and acknowledge Big Brother.

[race aficionado]

Well I will add a funny story to this. About 5 yrs ago I am talking via email to my friend in Mexico. He tells me he has a 30ft boat for sale at around 75k and sends me a picture. The boat was worth about 35K max. So I sent him a email back and said Ok I will buy it but where to you have the cocaine stashed. The following day the police showed up and searched the boat. 5years ago and a true story!! So anytime you are talking or emailing joking about guns drugs or explosives be sure and acknowledge Big Brother.

Exactly! So why the surprise? They can go ahead and read my mail and listen to my phone calls, I have nothing to hide - and I don't see it happening any way, there are bigger fish to fry . . . . just stay away from my bedroom and water closet.

Hey fousto, was the boat well stashed once you purchased it? :D

[BDunnell]

This is what really makes me laugh when people question the 2nd amendment rights. They act as if the first time a politician steps out of line we should blast them, otherwise the right has no meaning.

But the notion your country's government has anything to fear as a result of the granting of that right, as advocates of said right often claim, is far more laughable.

[BDunnell]

Exactly! So why the surprise? They can go ahead and read my mail and listen to my phone calls, I have nothing to hide - and I don't see it happening any way, there are bigger fish to fry . . . . just stay away from my bedroom and water closet.

If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear — in relation to this issue, the most empty argument of all. It ignores the small matter of miscarriages of justice, for a start. Clearly some people who have done nothing wrong have much to fear from the authorities. History shows us that.

[race aficionado]

If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear — in relation to this issue, the most empty argument of all. It ignores the small matter of miscarriages of justice, for a start. Clearly some people who have done nothing wrong have much to fear from the authorities. History shows us that.

:) My attitude right now does not appreciate the fact that we have this situation - it is more an acceptance of how messed up things are right now - how they have been so for a while and how they are now coming full circle to remind us that yes, paranoia is rampant, and justifiably so: We are being bombed in our sacred spaces. - and we want to know who did it after the fact (Boston) and we want to avoid that it happens again (as we have been told by our beloved leaders that terrorist missions have been thwarted with the help of this eavesdropping.)

Yes, here in the US of A we are relatively new to this blatant terror threat, you guys on the other side of the pond have lived this for a while now.


It ignores the small matter of miscarriages of justice, for a start. Clearly some people who have done nothing wrong have much to fear from the authorities. History shows us that.


We are doomed man, now its a decision to be made: do I pay my dam misused taxes? hey banks! lend me some money! I bailed you out you know?

We'll be fine . . . . still more feces has to hit the fan.

peace
damit!

:s mokin:

[Knock-on]

Poor old RA. You love peace but we can never have it.

Countries spy. That's life and we dumbly expect its for noble reasons: to stop the bad men.

Ha! Bull!!!!

You will stop one terrorist, a thousand dodgy geezers and a hundred innocents that become collatoral damage.

Spying won't stop. It is endemic

[Rollo]

My attitude right now does not appreciate the fact that we have this situation - it is more an acceptance of how messed up things are right now - how they have been so for a while and how they are now coming full circle to remind us that yes, paranoia is rampant, and justifiably so: We are being bombed in our sacred spaces.

Is this the point where I show the elephant in the room:

This is from the Terms of Reference of a report with reference to Unconventional Nuclear Warfare, from the Dept of Defense, July 2001.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb388/docs/EBB008.pdf
Unconventional Nuclear Threat (UNT) pertains to a nuclear attack on the United States via unconventional delivery methods, e.g. delivery other than by missile or military aircraft. The possible perpetrators of such an attack can range from small terrorist groups, subnational groups, transnational groups, state-sponsored/supported terrorist groups, to nation-states. The nuclear devices also cover a spectrum from crude radiation dispersal devices and improvised nuclear explosive devices, to stolen nuclear weapons.

Quite frankly, the US Government is **** scared of a terrorist nuclear attack. When you bear in mind that the destruction of 5000 lives via aircraft attacks, just two months after this report was released, was perpetrated by people bearing no more than Stanley Knives, would you then charge the government negligent if a nuclear device was used by a terrorist?

If just one person managed to gain a nuclear fissile device and hid it in a van or car bomb... then what?
Or is even a nuclear weapon being used to blow people to bits an acceptable price to pay for "freedom"? You've already decided that the lives of 10,000 people a year at the hands of firearms are.

[webberf1]

If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear — in relation to this issue, the most empty argument of all. It ignores the small matter of miscarriages of justice, for a start. Clearly some people who have done nothing wrong have much to fear from the authorities. History shows us that.
Saying there is nothing to fear with them having omnipotent access to our information is indeed an empty argument.

I can't speak so much for the NSA (I'm not as familiar with their specific history), but lets have a look at a small part of the track record of the CIA and FBI:
* International covert operations that have rigged elections, supported coups to remove and execute democratically elected leaders and happily supported supremely fascist dictators (as long as they were anti-communist and/or commercial puppets to American businesses!) who murdered hundreds of thousands and even millions of their own citizens
* Probably more political assassinations than you've had breakfasts
* Completely broken every rule in the book on torture, and trained virtually every brutally corrupt regime they installed into power in it
* Drug trafficking and working hand in hand with various international mafia and other criminal organisations, often to suppress labour movements or perform assassinations
* Covertly supporting apartheid South Africa in destabilising black nationalist movements throughout Africa

Some domestic examples:
* Intentionally botching intelligence data to directly alter government policy (egs. completely overstating Soviet military capabilities to convince congress to approve more U.S. military spending, or manipulating the reports over weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to fool the country into going to war)
* Massive infiltration and spying on completely legitimate political organisations, particularly in the Cold War, simply because they were left leaning
* Heavy involvement in assassinations of civil rights leaders such as Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, and VERY strong evidence to suggest direct links to the Kennedy assassinations
* Heavy involvement in the Watergate scandal

And many, many more.

So my point is this, if you're happy with organisations as filthy as this - who have essentially committed many of the worlds greatest injustices since the end of WWII - with all your most secret information, then you need a brain transplant. These are not organisations of justice (the main reason why they are so secretive, to avoid accountability to the justice systems), they are organisations of power. The collateral damage of what they do makes the world a far, far worse and ironically less secure place.

[webberf1]

You're wrong there. The revolution has already taken place a few days ago. The new group did not want to bother anyone over it, so there is a complete news blackout in place. We now control everything. Obama and other former leaders are still shown before the cameras to provide a sense of stability and if they step out of line they're toast. We'll allow the truth to come out in our own good time.
:eek: :rolleyes:
Honestly, that is one of the most confused, discombobulated and meaningless posts I've ever read - and I've read a lot of rubbish on forums over the years. Not only do you completely fail to make anything even closely resembling a meaningful argument, you are totally vague and don't even come close to addressing my point.

EDIT: And stop using the word 'we' to refer to the American people like you're anything like a united, coordinated and vigilant people ready to take action at a moments notice. 'You' couldn't be anything further from that.

[airshifter]

And the lawsuits have started....

A Philadelphia couple has filed a class action suit against the NSA and Verizon. Should be interesting to see how many lawsuits are quick to follow. They are stating being targeted after speaking out against the President and the military after their son's death in Afghanistan.




"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.." Patrick Henry

[Starter]

Is this the point where I show the elephant in the room:

This is from the Terms of Reference of a report with reference to Unconventional Nuclear Warfare, from the Dept of Defense, July 2001.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb388/docs/EBB008.pdf
Unconventional Nuclear Threat (UNT) pertains to a nuclear attack on the United States via unconventional delivery methods, e.g. delivery other than by missile or military aircraft. The possible perpetrators of such an attack can range from small terrorist groups, subnational groups, transnational groups, state-sponsored/supported terrorist groups, to nation-states. The nuclear devices also cover a spectrum from crude radiation dispersal devices and improvised nuclear explosive devices, to stolen nuclear weapons.

Quite frankly, the US Government is **** scared of a terrorist nuclear attack. When you bear in mind that the destruction of 5000 lives via aircraft attacks, just two months after this report was released, was perpetrated by people bearing no more than Stanley Knives, would you then charge the government negligent if a nuclear device was used by a terrorist?

If just one person managed to gain a nuclear fissile device and hid it in a van or car bomb... then what?
Or is even a nuclear weapon being used to blow people to bits an acceptable price to pay for "freedom"? You've already decided that the lives of 10,000 people a year at the hands of firearms are.
So your argument is that everyone should bow to any person or group who wishes to rule them and/or control their lives because the of possibility of being harmed by the boogeymen? It's one tiny step from there to living in a dictatorship. You've forgotten one important point. No one gets out of life alive. It's only how and when you die, not if.

[Starter]

* Probably more political assassinations than you've had breakfasts
Not denying there may have been a few, but that's a gross exaggeration.



* Drug trafficking and working hand in hand with various international mafia and other criminal organisations, often to suppress labour movements or perform assassinations
Really? Cite examples and your "proof".


* Covertly supporting apartheid South Africa in destabilising black nationalist movements throughout Africa
Prove that one too.


* Intentionally botching intelligence data to directly alter government policy (egs. completely overstating Soviet military capabilities to convince congress to approve more U.S. military spending, or manipulating the reports over weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to fool the country into going to war)
Evidence supports this, in that correct intelligence was reported at the lower levels and was then altered before presenting to decision makers. A failure of some of the people in the system and a danger to every country everywhere when people get into positions of power and think they are "special". A failure of some people and not part of the mission of the organizations.


* Heavy involvement in assassinations of civil rights leaders such as Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, and VERY strong evidence to suggest direct links to the Kennedy assassinations
Unadulterated bull****.


* Heavy involvement in the Watergate scandal
Where do you get this stuff? I want some of what you're smoking.

[race aficionado]

Poor old RA. You love peace but we can never have it.

Countries spy. That's life and we dumbly expect its for noble reasons: to stop the bad men.

Ha! Bull!!!!

You will stop one terrorist, a thousand dodgy geezers and a hundred innocents that become collatoral damage.

Spying won't stop. It is endemic


You guys know me well enough to know that I am not advocating spying to bring world peace.

That peace will only happen once we start trusting each other - etc. etc. etc.

I am being sarcastic and facetious.



Adjective


Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.













:s mokin:

[Spafranco]

But wait.


I thought President Hope & Change was going to bring a new era of openness and transparency? Didn't he close GITMO? Make the world love us again? End Terrorism with appeasement? Repeal the Patriot act?


All he has done is raised taxes. screwed the economy, use the IRS to attack the political opposition and institute the single largest incidence of domestic spying in the history of the world all the while blaming it either on Bush or Freedom of speech!

Tony, stop listening to Limbaugh. He seems to have you brainwashed. Do you know how much the economy has recover since PRESIDENT Obama took office?
Do you know how much he has reduced the deficit?
Do you know he tried to close Guantanamo but was stopped by Congress?
Do you know that you must be in the $250,000 and up category because my taxes sure have not gone up?
Do you that 15 of the worst mass murders out of 25 over the past fifty years occurred here in the US?

[Starter]

Tony, stop listening to Limbaugh. He seems to have you brainwashed. Do you know how much the economy has recover since PRESIDENT Obama took office?
Do you know how much he has reduced the deficit?
I do. HE has done little. The up tick in the economy is responsible for close to 100% of it.


Do you know he tried to close Guantanamo but was stopped by Congress?
True, but then he didn't try very hard.


Do you know that you must be in the $250,000 and up category because my taxes sure have not gone up?
That's funny. I'm sure not in that category and my taxes DID go up.


Do you that 15 of the worst mass murders out of 25 over the past fifty years occurred here in the US?
And that has what to do with Obama and his policies?

And not to mention, what does your post have to do with the thread topic? Nice dancing, but you're not in time with the music.

[BDunnell]

You've forgotten one important point. No one gets out of life alive. It's only how and when you die, not if.

Extending that argument, who cares about murder?

[Knock-on]

Dear, oh dear.

Out of field posts like that Ben just should puerile unless there's some reason behind it that's not logical to me.

[BDunnell]

Dear, oh dear.

Out of field posts like that Ben just should puerile unless there's some reason behind it that's not logical to me.

I'm not trying to make a cheap point, but I genuinely don't understand that sentence.

[Rudy Tamasz]

And the lawsuits have started....

A Philadelphia couple has filed a class action suit against the NSA and Verizon. Should be interesting to see how many lawsuits are quick to follow. They are stating being targeted after speaking out against the President and the military after their son's death in Afghanistan.




"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.." Patrick Henry

One thing that keeps amazing me is that no matter what happens in the U.S., lawyers always have a feast. They have a neverending feast...

[Gregor-y]

Sadly, legal concerns have more money in (and control over) our government than car dealers. ;)

[Knock-on]

Starters post related to a country being controlled because of an minute risk of terrorist attack. So, using said threat, a government justifies a disproportionate level of citizen snooping and erosion of privacy.

I don't know where he intimates that we shouldn't care about murder. It seems quite a provocative statement that bears no relation to his post other than he mentioned that we all eventually die one day.

A similar example might be if you mention that everyone pays tax and I counter with "so robbery is ok then"?

[Starter]

One thing that keeps amazing me is that no matter what happens in the U.S., lawyers always have a feast. They have a neverending feast...
The Brits have this one right. I believe their system is "loser pays". That's expenses for both parties. Keeps the frivolous suits out and the ones who sue knowing you'll pay something because its cheaper than defending the suit.

[Spafranco]

I do. HE has done little. The up tick in the economy is responsible for close to 100% of it.


True, but then he didn't try very hard.


That's funny. I'm sure not in that category and my taxes DID go up.


And that has what to do with Obama and his policies?

And not to mention, what does your post have to do with the thread topic? Nice dancing, but you're not in time with the music.

Who is dancing. Why are you answering for the person to whom I was addressing. Thread topic? Why have you read my post? To argue? I was responding to the post of another who was off topic. Stay away from me and then you will be on the same page as everyone else. Just sayin.

[Starter]

Who is dancing. Why are you answering for the person to whom I was addressing. Thread topic? Why have you read my post? To argue? I was responding to the post of another who was off topic. Stay away from me and then you will be on the same page as everyone else. Just sayin.
Little touchy today? Last time I looked, this was an open discussion board.

[anthonyvop]

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized



If only US citizens were half as vocal about defending their Fourth Amendment Rights as they were for their Second Amendment Rights.


The thing is we are. Only problem is the Media here is in the Left's pocket. Has been for decades.

[anthonyvop]

Tony, stop listening to Limbaugh. He seems to have you brainwashed. Do you know how much the economy has recover since PRESIDENT Obama took office?

Real Unemployment in Double digits. record numbers of people on food stamps. Stagnant GDP. Sure


Do you know how much he has reduced the deficit?

Reduced? Sorry. I don't speak Liberal. The Deficit has grown to record levels under Obama.

Do you know he tried to close Guantanamo but was stopped by Congress?

You mean the Democratic controlled Congress he had for 2 years?


Do you know that you must be in the $250,000 and up category because my taxes sure have not gone up?

Taxes have gone up for everyone who actually pays Taxes. And lets not even talk about the HUGE TAX INCREASES associated with Obamacare.


Do you that 15 of the worst mass murders out of 25 over the past fifty years occurred here in the US?

Really? Are you sure? I want you to think really hard about that one and come back to us.

BTW the few incidents that have happened in the USA were pretty much done by Left Wing Nut Jobs or Islamic Terrorists in locations where Firearms are strictly forbidden.


Lets not forget using the IRS to attack legitimate opposition groups, mass illegal surveillance of private citizens, Massive breaches of security for political gain and treasonous abandonment of embassy employees combined with a massive coverup.


Seriously......How can you defend him and even think you believe in freedom and responsibility? We have had some crappy Presidents but he is by far the worst and I remember the national embarrassment that was Jimmy Carter.

[Rudy Tamasz]

The Brits have this one right. I believe their system is "loser pays". That's expenses for both parties. Keeps the frivolous suits out and the ones who sue knowing you'll pay something because its cheaper than defending the suit.

If you win, you still have to pay the lawyers. They may as well take most of what you've gained.

[BDunnell]

Reduced? Sorry. I don't speak Liberal.

What do you speak? I've never been sure.



Taxes have gone up for everyone who actually pays Taxes.

Someone has just told you that that their taxes have not gone up. Are you calling them a liar?

[BDunnell]

Starters post related to a country being controlled because of an minute risk of terrorist attack. So, using said threat, a government justifies a disproportionate level of citizen snooping and erosion of privacy.

I don't know where he intimates that we shouldn't care about murder. It seems quite a provocative statement that bears no relation to his post other than he mentioned that we all eventually die one day.

Hence my saying 'Extending that argument'. It seems to me to suggest that one doesn't much care for how or when a life ends.

[Bagwan]

Hey , you guys all know they are reading all this , don't you ?

Lots of key words in this discussion .

I'm going off to have a regular work day , without any battering rams at my door .

[Rollo]

So your argument is that everyone should bow to any person or group who wishes to rule them and/or control their lives because the of possibility of being harmed by the boogeymen? It's one tiny step from there to living in a dictatorship. You've forgotten one important point. No one gets out of life alive. It's only how and when you die, not if.

Not at all.
My argument is that seeing as the first duty of the government is to protect the citizenry, that the government is bound to act upon that. There is also the rather annoying niggle that the word "unreasonable" is vague at law and as such, as with all covert operations, it's assumed that if someone does feel violated, then they should seek remedy through the courts.
If the act of Congress which allowed this thing to happen was unconstitutional, then why was it allowed to pass through both houses and be signed into law? Moreover, why did you the people not take some responsibility for the Congress? They are after all your representatives and not one single person in this thread has even suggested that they were going to write to their Congressman or Senator.

[BDunnell]

Starters post related to a country being controlled because of an minute risk of terrorist attack. So, using said threat, a government justifies a disproportionate level of citizen snooping and erosion of privacy.

I don't know where he intimates that we shouldn't care about murder. It seems quite a provocative statement that bears no relation to his post other than he mentioned that we all eventually die one day.

I should add, perhaps, that the rest of Starter's post I agree with. The point about death struck me as a bit odd and not especially relevant.

[BDunnell]

If the act of Congress which allowed this thing to happen was unconstitutional, then why was it allowed to pass through both houses and be signed into law? Moreover, why did you the people not take some responsibility for the Congress? They are after all your representatives and not one single person in this thread has even suggested that they were going to write to their Congressman or Senator.

Because, perhaps, for all the spouting of the word 'freedom' they don't care sufficiently about the erosion of those freedoms to actually kick up a fuss?

[Starter]

Not at all.
My argument is that seeing as the first duty of the government is to protect the citizenry, that the government is bound to act upon that. There is also the rather annoying niggle that the word "unreasonable" is vague at law and as such, as with all covert operations, it's assumed that if someone does feel violated, then they should seek remedy through the courts.
That's true enough. It is vague and subject to interpretation.


If the act of Congress which allowed this thing to happen was unconstitutional, then why was it allowed to pass through both houses and be signed into law?
Many things over time have been passed by Congress and signed into law and later, sometimes much later, been over turned by the courts. That's why there are three branches of government. It also takes someone to file suit against said law and for the case to wind it's way through the courts.


Moreover, why did you the people not take some responsibility for the Congress? They are after all your representatives and not one single person in this thread has even suggested that they were going to write to their Congressman or Senator.
I have written and phoned both of my senators and my congressman on this subject. Can't control what others do or don't do. I have to believe that if I was motivated enough to do so that others have also.

[Knock-on]

Sorry Ben, I misunderstood what point you were making. I understand you were stretching it but can sort of see what you were getting at although it might be a stretch too far ;)

The rest if his post I likewise agree with :)

[anthonyvop]

What do you speak? I've never been sure.



Someone has just told you that that their taxes have not gone up. Are you calling them a liar?

No. I am calling them either mistaken or they don't pay Taxes at all.

More good news of the Obama economic recovery

US Industrial Production May - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/us-industrial-production-may-2013-6)

[BDunnell]

No. I am calling them either mistaken or they don't pay Taxes at all.

I would prefer to hear it from the horse's mouth. You don't know their situation.

[BDunnell]

I have written and phoned both of my senators and my congressman on this subject. Can't control what others do or don't do. I have to believe that if I was motivated enough to do so that others have also.

Good for you. I withdraw you from my other comment made above.

[Spafranco]

Real Unemployment in Double digits. record numbers of people on food stamps. Stagnant GDP. Sure



Reduced? Sorry. I don't speak Liberal. The Deficit has grown to record levels under Obama.


You mean the Democratic controlled Congress he had for 2 years?



Taxes have gone up for everyone who actually pays Taxes. And lets not even talk about the HUGE TAX INCREASES associated with Obamacare.



Really? Are you sure? I want you to think really hard about that one and come back to us.

BTW the few incidents that have happened in the USA were pretty much done by Left Wing Nut Jobs or Islamic Terrorists in locations where Firearms are strictly forbidden.


Lets not forget using the IRS to attack legitimate opposition groups, mass illegal surveillance of private citizens, Massive breaches of security for political gain and treasonous abandonment of embassy employees combined with a massive coverup.


Seriously......How can you defend him and even think you believe in freedom and responsibility? We have had some crappy Presidents but he is by far the worst and I remember the national embarrassment that was Jimmy Carter.

Such a lot of time going through so much and yet failing to state anything that can refute what was stated. Stay listening to Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck and the myriad of other clown who feed disinformation to the masses and it gets lapped up by people like you.

"I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me." —Dave Barry and Anthony.

[Starter]

Such a lot of time going through so much and yet failing to state anything that can refute what was stated. Stay listening to Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck and the myriad of other clown who feed disinformation to the masses and it gets lapped up by people like you.

"I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me." —Dave Barry and Anthony.
You were refuted both in vop's post and mine (post #40). Quite thoroughly too. You can't just make that stuff up and expect people to believe it.

[Rollo]

To be honest, the discussion of whether or not taxes have been raised or not, whilst it might be interesting, is not exactly the scope of this discussion - which is namely the surveillance and hoovering of people's data.
As far as the political dogfight is concerned: Republicans v Democrats - hooray boo, hooray boo, whatever. This is like Rangers and Celtic.

To the matter at hand -

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0
Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.
- The New York Times, Dec 16 2005.

Taking the New York Times article, this sort of thing has in principle been going on since circa Jan 2002. This is a full five years before even the Protect America Act of 2007 and the The FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

This makes for interesting reading:
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/fiscr082208.pdf
Basically Yahoo and companies like it had two choices: Hand over the data or break the law.

[BDunnell]

You were refuted both in vop's post and mine (post #40). Quite thoroughly too. You can't just make that stuff up and expect people to believe it.

Anthonyvop is unable ever to refute anything 'quite thoroughly'. I am beginning to think the same of you, too.

[Spafranco]

You were refuted both in vop's post and mine (post #40). Quite thoroughly too. You can't just make that stuff up and expect people to believe it.

Make stuff up, and you "refuted it thoroughly"?! Do you know what deluded means?

[Starter]

Make stuff up, and you "refuted it thoroughly"?! Do you know what deluded means?
Yes. In my Webster's the definition of deluded is "Spafranco".

That's intended as a joke by the way, not an insult. Sorry but you left yourself wide open for that one. :D

[BDunnell]

Yes. In my Webster's the definition of deluded is "Spafranco".

That's intended as a joke by the way, not an insult. Sorry but you left yourself wide open for that one. :D

Almost as wide open, one might say, as that comment is distant from providing a proper answer.

[Spafranco]

Yes. In my Webster's the definition of deluded is "Spafranco".

That's intended as a joke by the way, not an insult. Sorry but you left yourself wide open for that one. :D

'I take insults as compliments from those who know no better'

In your Websters it appears, based upon your post that up is down and down is up. Better look that up. It may be a joke and not an insult. Woe , that someone would ever receive a ban for insulting. You know what I mean,old chap?!

[race aficionado]

Guys, it gets boring when threads divert into personal messages.
Take it to P.M.'s
. . . and by the way, big brother also can read your P.M's

[Starter]

'I take insults as compliments from those who know no better'

In your Websters it appears, based upon your post that up is down and down is up. Better look that up. It may be a joke and not an insult. Woe , that someone would ever receive a ban for insulting. You know what I mean,old chap?!
I'd suggest you refer yourself to post #68 to refresh your memory. Even given that, I did mean my reply as a joke. Sometimes I hand them out and sometimes I'm the butt of the joke. It's all good. Everyone should be able to laugh at themselves and their occasional poorly worded statements.

As for the thread topic, please refer to the last line in post #40. I still haven't seen much from you addressing the actual topic.

[Starter]

Guys, it gets boring when threads divert into personal messages.
Take it to P.M.'s
. . . and by the way, big brother also can read your P.M's
Both on the macro and micro scale.

[Jag_Warrior]

I have no intention of reading all 74 posts in this thread. But as an observation, here's one thing that I find very interesting: any American (or non-American) should know that Experian and other data miners have been using social media, the internet and (especially) credit account activity to track Americans for a number of years. One of the first things to be done when a security clearance is being sought is to run an Experian report on someone (I know, because that's how they did mine years ago). For those who don't know, it gives many more details than just credit history. You can nearly build a life/psychological profile from just the information contained in one of their reports. So to now be surprised that the government has tapped into this gold mine of data seems rather naive to me. It is not something I like, nor do I agree with it. But it is odd/ironic/fascinating that some of the (so called) conservatives who express outrage that it is the Obama Administration behind this one, well, they are some of the same people (not all) who defended the Patriot Act. I don't agree with it, no matter who is behind it.

To borrow from something a non-partisan friend of mine recently said, "you know you are dealing with a partisan political junky when his daughter gets raped and the first thing he asks is whether the rapist was a Democrat or a Republican." From what I have bothered to read, this thread seems a perfect illustration of that sentiment.

That's all. Carry on. Bickering never gets old here. :D

[Spafranco]

I do. HE has done little. The up tick in the economy is responsible for close to 100% of it.










That's funny. I'm sure not in that category and my taxes DID go up.


And that has what to do with Obama and his policies?

And not to mention, what does your post have to do with the thread topic? Nice dancing, but you're not in time with the music.




Pray tell why you asked me to view this drivel again? You feel this is a retort?

I get it now, it's a joke from your Websters dictionary. Silly me.

By the way, that whole gobble-de-gook of a response and then followed by a question pertaining to the thread seems quite ludicrous since my

post was directed at Anthonyprop's post and not yours. You have a penchant for accusation which seems a tad hypocritical or is it a

narcissistic attempt at showing how 'brilliant' you are to go point by point of my post and at the end question it's relevance to the topic.

[BleAivano]

An article about the Danish police who have been doing the same as FBI/NSA:

Danish Police Admit That Data Retention Hasn't Helped At All | Techdirt (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130523/02542423184/danish-police-admit-that-data-retention-hasnt-helped-all.shtml)

[Knock-on]

Just a little 'bump' to keep us awake.

Times were when this sort of thread and the ensuing fallout would have had the boards erupting :confused:

Are we too complacent these days? Is news like Snowden just too blasé?

Do we just not care anymore?

[Lousada]

Just a little 'bump' to keep us awake.

Times were when this sort of thread and the ensuing fallout would have had the boards erupting :confused:

Are we too complacent these days? Is news like Snowden just too blasé?

Do we just not care anymore?

We all knew this happened so why would we be outraged by this 'news'??

[anthonyvop]

WoooooooHoooooo

Since when Obama was inaugurated we have had 54 straight months with the unemployment rate at 7.5 percent or higher.

This is the longest stretch of unemployment at or above that rate since 1948, when the government 1st started calculating the national unemployment rate.


Hope and Change.

[Corvettian]

"They" aren't just snooping around our electronic communications.
The following story may have appeared elsewhere; I just happened to see it here: US Postal Service photographing 160 billion letters annually ? RT USA (http://rt.com/usa/us-nsa-mail-spying-706/)

[ioan]

Just a little 'bump' to keep us awake.

Times were when this sort of thread and the ensuing fallout would have had the boards erupting :confused:

Are we too complacent these days? Is news like Snowden just too blasé?

Do we just not care anymore?

If these revelations would have happened before 2007 there would have been a different response.
Now, in the aftermath (in some cases in the middle) of a financial crisis, people are happy they can buy a potato for dinner and none of them cares that their emails or phone calls are being listened to and registered by the NSA or any other governmental agency from the US, EU, China, Russia, North Korea and so on...
Our society is losing its basis day by day.

I am surprised that the gun wielding US forumers are not making use of their constitutional rights to use guns in order to protect their other fundamental rights! I thought that was their only reason for buying more guns then the Chinese army ever owned.

[Corvettian]

Just a little 'bump' to keep us awake.

Times were when this sort of thread and the ensuing fallout would have had the boards erupting :confused:

Are we too complacent these days? Is news like Snowden just too blasé?

Do we just not care anymore?
...none of them cares that their emails or phone calls are being listened to and registered by the NSA or any other governmental agency from the US, EU, China, Russia, North Korea and so on...
Our society is losing its basis day by day.
I said more or less the same thing in the "North Korea crisis" thread yesterday: people become blasé about "freedom", taking it for granted until they suddenly notice it's gone... by which time it's too late.

[Corvettian]

Ioan, maybe the "financial crisis" is a deliberate ploy to make us not care about such trivial matters as being spied upon by our own Government(s), who can then use "national security" as an excuse to invade our privacy and erode our rights even more; at the same time, huge amounts of money can be saved by making "essential" public spending cuts. It's a win-win situation for them.

[gadjo_dilo]

Now, in the aftermath (in some cases in the middle) of a financial crisis, people are happy they can buy a potato for dinner and none of them cares that their emails or phone calls are being listened to and registered by the NSA or any other governmental agency from the US, EU, China, Russia, North Korea and so on...
Our society is losing its basis day by day.

.
Hmmm....... I remember the times before 1989 when due to the lack of food in our shops, getting a chocolate or a jar of instant coffee was a sort of personal victory. They say that our fight for food was a mean to divert our attention from fighting against the regime. However I also remember our concern about having phone calls being listerened or our correspondence being censored by "The Eye &The Eardrum Cooperative"