Ferrari Join Mercedes at centre of illegal tyre test investigation

[steveaki13]

Ferrari now involved.BBC Sport - Ferrari investigated by FIA over alleged illegal Pirelli tyre testing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22741087)

Was not sure whether to include this on Mercedes thread or not.

Feel free to move it. Anyone with the power :vader:

[Koz]

They are dragging Ferrari in just to take attention away from Mercedes.

This will all be called a misunderstanding, and maybe at most a slap on the wrists of Mercedes.


We wanted to create a test that gave us great value. It has been suggested in some quarters we asked for a 2013 car. That's not true.

So now they will argue semantics.

[BDunnell]

This will all be called a misunderstanding, and maybe at most a slap on the wrists of Mercedes.

Given what appears to have gone on, with no one 'side' being wholly to blame, I think that would be a sensible outcome.

[mr nobody]

This all started over Red Bull protesting Mercedes and Pirelli's way of testing the tires. Pirelli is trying to develope a better tire for 2014 after hearing complaints by teams this year. Hasn't Red Bull been the most vocal about the tires? Seems they are more upset that they were left out of testing then who was asked for help with testing.

[Koz]

Given what appears to have gone on, with no one 'side' being wholly to blame, I think that would be a sensible outcome.

So is there any indication that Ferrari tested something other than a 2 year old car?
Or with a driver who isn't currently racing for the team?

[dj_bytedisaster]

This all started over Red Bull protesting Mercedes and Pirelli's way of testing the tires. Pirelli is trying to develope a better tire for 2014 after hearing complaints by teams this year. Hasn't Red Bull been the most vocal about the tires? Seems they are more upset that they were left out of testing then who was asked for help with testing.

This started with Red Bull AND Ferrari themselves protesting. Don't try to blame it all on just one team. Pirelli can't develop a tyre for 2014 any better with a 2013 car than they can with 1950's, because neither of them have an engine as used next year, so Pirelli's argument doesn't fly. If they want to develop tyres for next year, they first need 2014 engine characteristics and data and ideally a test car with a 2014 engine, but that doesn't work either, because the other two manufacturers would whine about one getting track time for the new engines. Seriously, Pirelli would get more reliable data testing a 1985 Brabham than a 2013 Mercedes, because the former has at least a turbo engine.

[BDunnell]

So is there any indication that Ferrari tested something other than a 2 year old car?
Or with a driver who isn't currently racing for the team?

No. Ferrari, surely, have done nothing wrong. I mean that there's no need to slap draconian penalties on anyone, on the grounds that it seems to have been an almighty cock-up.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well both test have one thing in common. They seemingly went completely without being noticed by the media, which is strange in some way. Considering that some media normally report every little straightline test or filming day, for them to miss two tests that cover 3 GP distances each is somewhat puzzling. Why the secrecy? And if Pirelli wants more testing, wouldn't it have been more useful for them to communicate the tests to the other teams to encourage them to join in at another time later in the season? Maybe there is really nothing to it, but both Ferrari and Merc have exposed themselves to suspicions with the needless hush-hush. On first look Ferrari seems to have followed the letter of the law by using an old car and a non-current driver, but I would hazard a guess that FIA lets them do the carpet dance since, due to the secrecy they couldn't send an official to oversee the test and being left out is something the FIA doesn't take very kindly to.
Also the rules say the car has to be 'fundamentally different' from the current car, a criterium that Ferrari could still have violated for instance by testing some 2013 bits nailed to a 2010 car, which again nobody could check because the test was seemingly not communicated to anyone.

[dj_bytedisaster]

German media report, that the Pirelli test in Bahrain was not run by the Ferrari main team, but rather 'Corse Clienti', a subdivision that keeps old cars in shape to rent out to rich gits for track days. If so, I'd say Ferrari has nothing much to fear, really

[AndyL]

German media report, that the Pirelli test in Bahrain was not run by the Ferrari main team, but rather 'Corse Clienti', a subdivision that keeps old cars in shape to rent out to rich gits for track days. If so, I'd say Ferrari has nothing much to fear, really

Even if it wasn't, running a 2 year old car doesn't count as track testing for the purposes of the in-season test ban. But true, if they also made sure it wasn't the F1 team who ran the test, they would be doubly safe from any risk of infringing the rules.
No doubt the FIA would want to look into it as part of a thorough investigation, but it's a bit of a non-story as there doesn't seem to be any indication Ferrari have done anything wrong.

[RS]

The Ferrari situation is completely different; old car, not run by the race team, and not with the race drivers.

Do Pirelli not still have their own test driver and car for track testing?

[henners88]

They are dragging Ferrari in just to take attention away from Mercedes.

This will all be called a misunderstanding, and maybe at most a slap on the wrists of Mercedes.

So now they will argue semantics.
I hope Ferrari and Mercedes just get a slap on the wrist because that is all they deserve.

I don't think anybody is 'dragging' Ferrari into anything. It would be unfair not to at least discuss what these teams have done and move forward with the type of outcome where every team understands the rules surrounding tyre testing.

[Big Ben]

perhaps Mercedes deserves a bit more than a slap on the wrist... like a punch in the face.

[SGWilko]

One would assume that, in order to properly compare tyres against each other, Pirelli mandated to Mercedes and Forti Course, that the car should remain unchanged in setup/development parts across the entire test.

This being the case, other than reliability and maybe driver fitness, what could Mercedes or Ferrari learn?

Should Michelin be shoehorned in, the rules around tyre testing would have to be changed simply to get the tyres race ready. Should this happen, and Pirelli are pushed out, I suspect there would be a rather significant lawsuit from Pirelli in respect of, at the very least, restrictive practice.

For that reason alone, I find it hard to believe that Pirelli wont be in F1 in 2014, and no team will be punished in respect to Pirelli tyre testing.

No, I see this as dirty laundry - FIA want more money, and are trying to scupper the fact (potentially) that FOM have agreed a deal with Pirelli - Bernard is saying "screw you"

[henners88]

perhaps Mercedes deserves a bit more than a slap on the wrist... like a punch in the face.
If you did that you'd have to kick a Lotus's ankles out from under them and make them walk to the hospital to level it out though.

[RS]

One would assume that, in order to properly compare tyres against each other, Pirelli mandated to Mercedes and Forti Course, that the car should remain unchanged in setup/development parts across the entire test.


If Pirelli have been testing cars on a Forti Corse it's no wonder they are falling apart ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think he meant to refer to Corse Clienti ;)

[SGWilko]

EDIT ^^ what he said. :)


If Pirelli have been testing cars on a Forti Corse it's no wonder they are falling apart ;)

Yeah - I meant Corse Cliente or whatever they are called! ;)

[airshifter]

Pirelli have stated that the tests were "blind tests". The teams themselves don't have access to the information or know what Pirelli were testing. Stefano Domenicali has made it clear the protest from Ferrari was for clarification over testing specifics, and wants Ferrari to be allowed testing in newer cars if it is legal.

I've seen nothing providing any evidence that there were attempts to keep the testing secret. I think it's another example of the FIA not having clearly defined policies and then pointing the finger at someone else. I personally don't think either team gained advantage from the testing.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I've seen nothing providing any evidence that there were attempts to keep the testing secret. I think it's another example of the FIA not having clearly defined policies and then pointing the finger at someone else. I personally don't think either team gained advantage from the testing.


Both must have taken measures to keep the tests secret. Normally specialized media outfits like motorsport-total cover each and every little straight line test and filming day. For them to miss two massive 1000km tests just doesn't add up. So if nothing else, both Ferrari and Merc didn't communicate it in any way. Maybe that's just sloppy communication, but they've done themselves no favour with it. Mercedes DID gain an advantage. They now have 3 GP distances worth of track time more for their current drivers in the current car. That's an advantage by definition, especially for Lewis, who's still settling into the new environment.

[SGWilko]

It's really very simple if you ask me;

Pirelli have a contract with the fIA that allows them to ask a team or teams to conduct 1000Km's testing on their behalf.

Mercedes were approached by Pirelli.

Mercedes run this by the FIA, and were given permission - by FIA lawyers - to use the 2013 car.

Either the FIA lawyers are correct, in which case Mercedes have no case to answer, or

FIA lawyers gave incorrect advice, advice which Mercedes took in good faith, in which case Mercedes have no case to answer.

[AndyL]

Apparently there is a question mark being raised over the interpretation of the phrase "conform substantially" in clause 22.1 of the sporting regulations:


Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year.

It's being suggested that the 2011 Ferrari "conforms substantially" to the current regs and therefore they shouldn't have tested with it.

Personally I don't think that's the right interpretation. The "conform substantially" bit isn't there to catch cars that were built to different regulations two years ago; it's a legalese way of saying "you can't just make some tiny tweak to your 2012/13/14 car and claim it's not a 2012/13/14 car any more."

However it's certainly a debatable point, much more so than I suggested in my previous post.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It's really very simple if you ask me;

Pirelli have a contract with the fIA that allows them to ask a team or teams to conduct 1000Km's testing on their behalf.

Mercedes were approached by Pirelli.

Mercedes run this by the FIA, and were given permission - by FIA lawyers - to use the 2013 car.

Either the FIA lawyers are correct, in which case Mercedes have no case to answer, or

FIA lawyers gave incorrect advice, advice which Mercedes took in good faith, in which case Mercedes have no case to answer.

The interesting question here is: Do the rules say anything about whether or not tests have to be announced to the FIA? The FIA statement that was released in Monaco said that the test itself (date and venue) was not communicated to FIA by neither Pirelli nor Mercedes, which means FIA had not had the chance to send an official to oversee the test. The same seems to apply to Ferraris test. If the rules state that you do have to announce date and venue of a test, Merc and Ferrari are in a wee bit of trouble.

Also: Does Mercedes have this alleged permission to run the 2013 car in writing?

[airshifter]

Both must have taken measures to keep the tests secret. Normally specialized media outfits like motorsport-total cover each and every little straight line test and filming day. For them to miss two massive 1000km tests just doesn't add up. So if nothing else, both Ferrari and Merc didn't communicate it in any way. Maybe that's just sloppy communication, but they've done themselves no favour with it. Mercedes DID gain an advantage. They now have 3 GP distances worth of track time more for their current drivers in the current car. That's an advantage by definition, especially for Lewis, who's still settling into the new environment.

There are pics of the Ferrari testing online on Twitter and other accounts. There are also photos from the Mercedes testing, but very few. To say the teams MUST have done anything is opinion only.

The drivers got more seat time, but they could do that in practice sessions but often don't. To claim that Mercedes DID gain advantage without saying Ferrari did the same.... well seems to me there is bias involved.

It was blind testing, run by Pirelli rather than the teams, with tires other than what they run now. So if you think running a tire you won't ever run in the same car again is gaining an advantage... well even that is a stretch in my eyes.

[Koz]

To claim that Mercedes DID gain advantage without saying Ferrari did the same.... well seems to me there is bias involved.

There is a ban on all testing (straight line tests excluded, as I understand it) for current cars. Ferrari tested a two year old car - which is legal. Mercedes tested a current spec car - not legal. Where do you see this bias?


Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year. The only exception is that each competitor is permitted up to eight promotional events, carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier, to a maximum distance of 100kms per event.

[Koz]

I hope Ferrari and Mercedes just get a slap on the wrist because that is all they deserve.

I don't think anybody is 'dragging' Ferrari into anything. It would be unfair not to at least discuss what these teams have done and move forward with the type of outcome where every team understands the rules surrounding tyre testing.

But according to the rules Ferrari did nothing wrong. Mercedes did. So why shouldn't they be punished for breaking the rules?

[dj_bytedisaster]

There are pics of the Ferrari testing online on Twitter and other accounts. There are also photos from the Mercedes testing, but very few. To say the teams MUST have done anything is opinion only.

Of course it is opinion only, but it is based on observation. If Marussia and Caterham do some straight line testing in backwood country the media know about it and some, like motorsport-total or autosport.com usually cover it, too. Am I really supposed to believe that all media missed two of the top teams testing for days and it is a mere coincidence that there is absolutely no coverage of it except for a few grainy photos on faceborg?


The drivers got more seat time, but they could do that in practice sessions but often don't. To claim that Mercedes DID gain advantage without saying Ferrari did the same.... well seems to me there is bias involved.

In the Mercedes test the current drivers got track time int the current cars. In the Ferrari test the test driver got track time in a two year old car. How can that be the same? There is no Bias involved just an observation again. There is a reason why current cars are banned from being tested.


It was blind testing, run by Pirelli rather than the teams, with tires other than what they run now. So if you think running a tire you won't ever run in the same car again is gaining an advantage... well even that is a stretch in my eyes.

First of all, Pirelli says it was a blind test, but since other than a few kids with mobile phone cameras the whole world, including FIA, seems to have missed these tests for some reason, there was nobody there to witness that

a) the cars weren't equipped with upgrade parts that could be used later in the season
b) that the teams really didn't know which tyre was which
c) that the teams didn't collect any data other than those needed by Pirelli.

Another thing that doesn't add up is Pirelli's insistence that they only tested tyres for 2014. How do they test tyres for a V6 turbo engined car on a car equipped with a V8 naturally aspirated engine? The current 2013 cars are as useless for the purpose as the 2010 Renault Pirelli can run on their own. In theory they would get more reliable data from a 1987 Ferrari, because that one actually had a V6 turbo. Next year's rules are so different and the power delivery of the engines is expected to differ that much from the current ones, that testing the tyres on a current car looks like a lame excuse or at least a complete waste of time to me.

[henners88]

But according to the rules Ferrari did nothing wrong. Mercedes did. So why shouldn't they be punished for breaking the rules?
So why did Charlie Whiting and the FIA lawyers give Mercedes the go ahead to test in the first place? I think its wrong to punish a team after giving them incorrect information. Its not down to Mercedes to contact every team to ask them if they want to test, that's down to Pirelli and this was done but not thoroughly enough it seems. Its a mess where the FIA, Mercedes and Pirelli have all played a part. If you think Mercedes should be punished, who is going to punish Pirelli and the Governing body? It puts the whole thing into perspective when you view the facts.

[dj_bytedisaster]

So why did Charlie Whiting and the FIA lawyers give Mercedes the go ahead to test in the first place? I think its wrong to punish a team after giving them incorrect information.

So far we only have Mercedes' word for it that someone gave the go-ahead. Every sane person would have asked to get such a major permission in deviation from the rules in writing. So far there haven't been any reports of a piece of paper saying that Mercedes is allowed to run the 2013 car.

[SGWilko]

There is a ban on all testing (straight line tests excluded, as I understand it) for current cars.

Except the FIA gave permission to Mercedes to use the 2013 car and race drivers, such permission I think it reasonable to assume, overriding said ban.

[SGWilko]

So far we only have Mercedes' word for it that someone gave the go-ahead. Every sane person would have asked to get such a major permission in deviation from the rules in writing. So far there haven't been any reports of a piece of paper saying that Mercedes is allowed to run the 2013 car.

I am sure there is such a piece of paper, but I rather suspect, in a face saving exercise, the FIA would rather it was not made public.

If the FIA really want Michelin in, then Michelin need to test. If you allow a new tyre company to test, the current incumbent has the right of complaint and remedy for the fact that, save for a crappy Renault of 2010 vintage, they have had little in the way of testing. So that is one lawsuit the FIA would lose.

Then Mercedes would no doubt do their Goliath act when it comes to lawyers, and if that happens, the FIA end up with an ar*e like a Clowns Pocket.

Michelin would walk away from all the bad publicity........

[Koz]

I am sure there is such a piece of paper, but I rather suspect, in a face saving exercise, the FIA would rather it was not made public.



If nothing wrong happened then why the need to save face?

There is impropriety here. This is another stain that F1 and the FIA do not need.

If simply contacting Whiting or Bernie allows you to bypass rules, what point is there in having rules in the first place?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Looks like Mercedes have more bad news coming their way. German media now report that Hamilton wore a differently coloured helmet during the test, which begs the question - why? Also it is a safely established fact that at neither test any FIA officials have been present. Mercedes has announced their intention to do a test 'at some point' to FIA, but then ceased all communication with them.
Sorry Mr. Brawn, but that doesn't look like 'nothing to hide' to me.

[henners88]

I'll laugh my head off if they get away with it. I would imagine Charlie is in quite a bit of hot water too. I love a scandal lol

[airshifter]

Looks like Mercedes have more bad news coming their way. German media now report that Hamilton wore a differently coloured helmet during the test, which begs the question - why? Also it is a safely established fact that at neither test any FIA officials have been present. Mercedes has announced their intention to do a test 'at some point' to FIA, but then ceased all communication with them.
Sorry Mr. Brawn, but that doesn't look like 'nothing to hide' to me.

How would anyone know, or for that matter prove, what color helmet any driver was wearing if in fact the tests were so secret. It sounds like a bad tabloid headline. "Top Secret Testing Photos Prove We Knew About It!"

[dj_bytedisaster]

How would anyone know, or for that matter prove, what color helmet any driver was wearing if in fact the tests were so secret. It sounds like a bad tabloid headline. "Top Secret Testing Photos Prove We Knew About It!"

Considering that the story came so late after the fact, I would hazard a guess that they had a good look at some of the grainy mobile phone pictures. And it wasn't a tabloid, who reported it. Motorsport-Total is normally rather reliable.

[BDunnell]

The more one reads about this whole palaver, the more one is struck by the apparent inability of the FIA properly to police its own rules. What does Jean Todt have to say about it?

[steveaki13]

It really made me laugh reading the bit about Lewis wearing a different helmet. Dont really know why. Its just seems to make it more farcical

[dj_bytedisaster]

Just reported on Motorsport-Total. Ferrari has been acquitted by FIA. Mercedes' case is going to the International Tribunal.

[CNR]

Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html)
In a statement, the FIA said it had decided to "close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organised by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules".

Read more: Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html#ixzz2VOV4fWqB)

[Koz]

Good to see they aren't dragging Ferrari into this BS anymore.

[SGWilko]

The more one reads about this whole palaver, the more one is struck by the apparent inability of the FIA properly to police its own rules. What does Jean Todt have to say about it?

Merde? ;)

[henners88]

Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html)

That's good news. With Merc being taken to court I can't help but feel the governing body are trying to deflect their own incompetence. All rather pathetic.

[SGWilko]

That's good news. With Merc being taken to court I can't help but feel the governing body are trying to deflect their own incompetence. All rather pathetic.

Will the FIA find themselves guilty of wasting their own time?

[henners88]

Will the FIA find themselves guilty of wasting their own time?
Possibly, but hopefully the punishment isn't a morning with Mistress Dom at a London Hotel, or perhaps it should be? If Charlie isn't walking funny at the Canadian GP I won't be happy.

[SGWilko]

Looks like Mercedes have more bad news coming their way. German media now report that Hamilton wore a differently coloured helmet during the test, which begs the question - why? Also it is a safely established fact that at neither test any FIA officials have been present. Mercedes has announced their intention to do a test 'at some point' to FIA, but then ceased all communication with them.
Sorry Mr. Brawn, but that doesn't look like 'nothing to hide' to me.

Anyone know what colour socks and kecks he wore, cos that'll really tip it in Charlie's favour! ;)

[SGWilko]

Possibly, but hopefully the punishment isn't a morning with Mistress Dom at a London Hotel, or perhaps it should be? If Charlie isn't walking funny at the Canadian GP I won't be happy.

Are you suggesting he is getting 'support' from an ex FIA president?????

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm starting to wonder, if it wasn't Rosberg, who let news slip about the secret test in the drivers briefing. While Hamilton goes the tried and trusty "no comment" route, Rosberg gave an interview to Sky yesterday that's not going to be well received in the Mercedes bunker.

original article : Motorsport Total (http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/2013/06/Test-Affaere_Rosberg_widerspricht_Team_und_Pirelli_1306 0631.html?ga_from=vl)



Testing affair: Rosbers contradicts team and Pirelli

What did Mercedes really know about the tyres that were tested by Pirelli, and could they profit from it? This question has been debated in F1 circles since news of the Pirelli test surfaced during the weekend of the Monaco Grand Prix. The winner of that race, "silver arrow" pilot Nico Rosberg admits that he wasn't as clueless in the car as the statements of Mercedes and Pirelli suggest.

"Of course I knew what was going on, what their ideas were and what they tested," he admits in an interview with 'Sky Sports F1'. "After all it was I, who was supposed to to tell them what happens [on the track] and in which direction they should go. [make changes]"
An interesting statement, considering that Ross Brawn, also in an interview with 'Sky Sports F1', had claimed that the tests were blind and that Mercedes did not know what they were testing.


Let's recall Paul Hembery's opinion on the matter...

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3200/38498200.jpg

[kfzmeister]

I'm starting to wonder, if it wasn't Rosberg, who let news slip about the secret test in the drivers briefing.

He did. Told Vettel at driver's meeting at Monaco.

[henners88]

I suppose Hamilton is quite used to the odd scandal and learned a hard lesson about telling the truth when the team ordered him not to in the past, so his 'no comment' was professional in this instance lol. I think Nico was a little naive here and should have kept his mouth shut. Unless of course he didn't believe they had broken any rules? If I was Brawn I'd be having strong words with him and prevent him talking too much to the media this coming weekend. Not good.

[Knock-on]

Wtf weak posting is this conspiracy about Nico????

So, Merc Told them there was to be a test? Nico then gave feedback?

Some people Really need a life!!

[airshifter]

Wtf weak posting is this conspiracy about Nico????

So, Merc Told them there was to be a test? Nico then gave feedback?

Some people Really need a life!!

Race results don't lie Knocky. Didn't you see Nico's complete domination in Canada? The man has the inside line and special preference on tires! :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wtf weak posting is this conspiracy about Nico????

So, Merc Told them there was to be a test? Nico then gave feedback?

Some people Really need a life!!

I don't know where you see a consipracy ?

As far as I can remember, the talking point was, that Brawn,Wolff and Hembery have insisted that Mercedes knew nothing about what they were testing, while Nico said in an interview that he of course knew what was going on and what Pirellis ideas were, else he couldn't have given any feedback. This difference in recollection of the events was discussed. Could you please point out where the conspiracy is in that or did you merely need some place to vent your frustration?

[henners88]

I don't know where you see a consipracy ?

As far as I can remember, the talking point was, that Brawn,Wolff and Hembery have insisted that Mercedes knew nothing about what they were testing, while Nico said in an interview that he of course knew what was going on and what Pirellis ideas were, else he couldn't have given any feedback. This difference in recollection of the events was discussed. Could you please point out where the conspiracy is in that or did you merely need some place to vent your frustration?
I think Nico was ill advised to talk about this issue, especially in an interview. Something as sensitive as this should have been kept private for the time being IMO. Whether Nico has contradicted his employers makes little difference at this stage and we will find out details further down the line. I'm going to focus on the racing for now.