The fall of McLaren

[jens]

McLaren is a team about who it is often said that they can start out badly, but everything is still fine, because they always bounce back. How about now? Would you expect them to reinstate themselves as frontrunners again in late 2013? Or in 2014? In 2015? Or when?

Much has been made of the fall of Williams actually ever since the departure of Renault & Newey. They still won races in 2001-04, but that was the end of their frontrunning era. McLaren hasn't won a title for some time now though have been winning races each year.

However, could McLaren be looking at a long-term low like they themselves faced in the mid-90's, when they were also looking around for new engine suppliers? Unlike other "slow starts" into the seasons McLaren seems to be facing bigger obstacles this time. During previous "slow starts" (like 2004/09) McLaren was a consistent team - Mercedes' works team with one of the biggest budgets on the grid and top designers. How about now? They are not a works team any more, I am not sure they have one of the biggest budgets any more (are also going to lose Vodafone at the end of the year), have lost chief designer Paddy Lowe.

Then 2014 seems like a transition year as a private team, while we prepare for a 2015 McLaren-Honda partnership. A bit like Williams-Mecachrome/Supertec in 1998/1999. 2015 is another transition/build up year. And then again we still do not know if this partnership could reach the heights of the former McLaren-Honda glory or is it going to be more like the BAR story.

Button must be having flashbacks to 2007 and his Honda experience. BAR had a promising second half of 2006 and Button genuinely thought he could be a title contender in 07 - how horribly wrong that went! In the same way McLaren had a very promising second half of 2012, yet it hasn't worked out at all for this year. And we know, how difficult Honda found it to re-build the team. They had to hire a lot of new staff including Ross Brawn in their search for competitiveness.

Thoughts on the struggles of McLaren? Do you still view them as a genuine top team, a match to RBR/Ferrari over a full season? What about the rise of Mercedes/Lotus? If you were a driver, would you now consider these two teams as a better long-term prospect in getting a drive if you had a choice?

[christophulus]

After believing that Williams were definitely back to being front runners after their massive improvement in 2012, I now no longer believe I am capable of making predictions! However, McLaren may have to adjust to being a bit of an also-ran for the time being.

Red Bull have pretty much unlimited money from fizzy water sales, which means they can keep Newey and Vettel tied up for a while, and Ferrari have much the same - limitless resources and a top driver. Even Mercedes are pretty secure for as long as the parent company wants to keep pumping money into the team.

McLaren, like Williams, don't really have any of that at present, and their two current drivers don't inspire me with confidence. And I don't have a lot of faith in their design team - when was the last season they started out looking like they had a really good car? 2008? I think they need a major shake up over the winter and learn quickly next year to get to a position to come out strong in 2015.

The only advantage over Williams is they still seem to be able to tie up the major sponsors - I heard GlaxoSmithKline are probably going to be the title sponsor going forward? Seems how Williams seem to be changing engine suppliers every couple of years I don't hold out much hope for them re-emerging, sadly.

[steveaki13]

Mclaren are a strange case.

Remember 80's and 90 and 91 and they were able to design champion challengers every year.

1998-2001 they were a front runner.

Then started a weird pattern of good season bad season.

2002s Car was 3rd best just but Ferrari were dominant and Williams were 2nd. Even Renuault kept them honest early 2002.

2003 gave Kimi a title challenger

2004 started as a midfield car, before improving it towards the end.

2005 An awesome car. Fastest around and should have won the title.

2006 Poor car. 3rd and sometimes 4th best.

2007 & 2008 were good cars.

2009 A poor midfield car.

2010-2012 Decent cars

2013 Again a donkey of a car.


A stop start pattern which has little reason to my eyes.

[wedge]

They're going through a transition period right now.

Too early to right them off. They've had their ups and downs and not as bad as Ferrari's between Scheckter and Schumi.

Though they really need a top class driver who can maximise the car regardless how good or bad the car is. So far Perez isn't that type of driver and still a work in progress which makes you wonder how they analysed Perez.

[Rollo]

So far Perez isn't that type of driver and still a work in progress which makes you wonder how they analysed Perez.

I think that they "analysed" Perez very very well.

http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/155798/claro-inline.jpg

Claro Americas is a subsidiary of América Móvil which is a Carlos Slim company. Carlos Slim has been the richest person in the world since 2010.

Two things:
1. Perez is only 23
2. Even if he deserves to be "punched in the face" he potentially brings an awful lot of cash to McLaren.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if McLaren sports an entirely different set of colours next year in line with Mr Slim's adverts. They may even be sky blue if they get Telmex colours.

[N. Jones]

I think it is because Hamilton and his speed are gone. Maybe some engineers left with him?

[Ranger]

Don't throw McLaren under the bus yet. They came back from a hopeless start in 2009 and ended up winning twice.


Though they really need a top class driver who can maximise the car regardless how good or bad the car is. So far Perez isn't that type of driver and still a work in progress which makes you wonder how they analysed Perez.

Has everyone already forgotten last year's flashes of brilliance?

For all of his apparent clowning around yesterday, he was ahead of Jenson for most of the afternoon.

If he reigns in his aggression, he will be very good.

[jens]

I think it is a bit harsh to blame Button too. For all his apparent weaknesses, he got lots of podiums and often started from the first two rows, when the car was good. Even finished second in WDC (2011), fifth in both 2010 and 2012. Right now he is only 10th, been far from any podiums. So obviously the car is much worse this year.


Don't throw McLaren under the bus yet. They came back from a hopeless start in 2009 and ended up winning twice.


They can certainly win a race or two each season, especially in changeable conditions.
But they are still going to finish only 5th in WCC this year, at best.
Question is - can they challenge for the title or get anywhere near the frontrunners over a full season? For some reason I doubt we are going to see it for a few years now.

It looks like the balance of powers is changing in F1. Mercedes is on an upward-swing. For all those tyre-troubles they have had they look like a team, who can become a major challenger very soon. A bit like McLaren in 1997. They had lots of reliability problems that year, but were fast and got some wins before the rule changes in 1998...

On the other hand both Williams and Benetton seemed on a downward spiral in 1997, even though they were still competitive. Renault was going to pull out and they were in the process of succumbing to the improvement of Ferrari and McLaren. Those changes in the balance of power aren't visible immediately, but it is a long-term process. In the same way I feel McLaren has lost or is losing its position in the pecking order and has to rebuild its former strength in the Honda era. Like Williams had to rebuild in co-operation with BMW. Or McLaren themselves with Mercedes in mid-90's.

I remember back in 2008 I considered McLaren as the most complete team on the grid, I did even after the slow start in 2009. Even if they didn't have the fastest car, the team all-around was performing very well (strategy, team operations, setup, reliability, etc). Certainly by now they have dropped the ball and gone backwards. Regardless of the speed of the car, they have been making so many mistakes in team operations (seen in 2012) that the have already lost the ground compared to where they were five years ago.

[christophulus]

Don't throw McLaren under the bus yet. They came back from a hopeless start in 2009 and ended up winning twice.


That's exactly the problem, they start too slowly. Perhaps they waste so much time and resources catching up in the current year that they haven't got time to get on top of next year's car.

Maybe it's a fallback to the days of unlimited testing? Ten years ago Ferrari and McLaren could basically spend their way out of trouble by running test days all through the season. I mean, throw enough money at a problem and it'll start to go away.

It kind of reminds me of a big corporation - massively inefficient and unable to adapt to the "new" F1 - (fewer resources and more restrictive rules) in the way the smaller teams do.

[steveaki13]

That's exactly the problem, they start too slowly. Perhaps they waste so much time and resources catching up in the current year that they haven't got time to get on top of next year's car.

Maybe it's a fallback to the days of unlimited testing? Ten years ago Ferrari and McLaren could basically spend their way out of trouble by running test days all through the season. I mean, throw enough money at a problem and it'll start to go away.

It kind of reminds me of a big corporation - massively inefficient and unable to adapt to the "new" F1 - (fewer resources and more restrictive rules) in the way the smaller teams do.

This could be it.

For one of the biggest and best run teams in F1, they cant seem to produce great car after great car these days.

[DexDexter]

Mclaren has always been like this. I followed them closely when Mika and Kimi were driving for the team and they were actually quite consistent even then: a good car was usually followed by a bad car which won races at the end of the season. You never knew whether they'd fight for the championship the following year.

[zako85]

I don't see why McLaren would write the 2014 year off. They will fight, and fight hard they will. Past 2014, things will look brighter as McLaren will probably effectively become Honda's works team. However, there is a good chance they will give up on 2013 car development some time soon. It's probably just not worth to fight hard when the best you're fighting for is 5th position in WCC and when you also need to put resources into 2014 car with brand new engine. Almost every team will do this towards year's end.

[faster69]

You're not gonna win a championship with Button as your number one driver unless you produce a car far superior to the opposition.

[SGWilko]

You're not gonna win a championship with Button as your number one driver unless you produce a car far superior to the opposition.

You're not gonna win a championship unless you produce a car superior to the opposition.

[jens]

I don't see why McLaren would write the 2014 year off.

One problem they could have though is that 2014 marks the end of the engine freeze and McLaren is not a works team. If there is an on-going in-season engine development, the factory team is going to get priority, while at the moment all engines seem virtually matched.

We can remember that 10 and more years ago there was certainly a horsepower deficiency in customer engines compared to works engines. For instance we can recall that back in 1993 the same McLaren's Ford engine was rumoured to have something like 30 or 50 HP less than the 'works' Benetton team.

[henners88]

I certainly think McLaren have the weakest pairing of the top teams and that isn't helping when their car is below expectations. I don't know if Button is weak at extracting speed out of a difficult car or he just gives that impression whenever he's interviewed? Perez appears to find the extra speed but encounters different problems to Button and his no grip, no heat tyre issues.

[jens]

I certainly think McLaren have the weakest pairing of the top teams and that isn't helping when their car is below expectations.

I agree that they leave such impression. But it isn't necessarily something set in stone. Does it mean McLaren in 2011 had a weak line-up? Because apparently the same Button was a team leader that year and seemingly did a very impressive job.

Sometimes I wonder, what would have happened if Hamilton left straight after 2011 and we would have the 2013 situation right after. Button would be considered a top driver and no-one would complain.

However, it has to be said that Button at the age of 33 can't afford to get beaten by Pérez any more. Of course it can't be said that driver at such relatively young age is "past his prime", evidenced by the impressive speed of Räikkönen at the same age. But Button is in such age, where he has to deliver and keep up his performance level, otherwise younger drivers would become more attractive for teams to hire.

[SGWilko]

One problem they could have though is that 2014 marks the end of the engine freeze and McLaren is not a works team. If there is an on-going in-season engine development, the factory team is going to get priority, while at the moment all engines seem virtually matched.

We can remember that 10 and more years ago there was certainly a horsepower deficiency in customer engines compared to works engines. For instance we can recall that back in 1993 the same McLaren's Ford engine was rumoured to have something like 30 or 50 HP less than the 'works' Benetton team.

Possibly, but ongoing engine development may well lead to unreliability, unless they use McLaren as the scapegoats!

[henners88]

I agree that they leave such impression. But it isn't necessarily something set in stone. Does it mean McLaren in 2011 had a weak line-up? Because apparently the same Button was a team leader that year and seemingly did a very impressive job.

Sometimes I wonder, what would have happened if Hamilton left straight after 2011 and we would have the 2013 situation right after. Button would be considered a top driver and no-one would complain.

However, it has to be said that Button at the age of 33 can't afford to get beaten by Pérez any more. Of course it can't be said that driver at such relatively young age is "past his prime", evidenced by the impressive speed of Räikkönen at the same age. But Button is in such age, where he has to deliver and keep up his performance level, otherwise younger drivers would become more attractive for teams to hire.
McLaren's line up in 2011 was certainly weakened by an under-performing Lewis Hamilton and Button had a better year no doubt. He was consistent and got involved in less incidents to secure way more points. Then we had 2012 where Hamilton completely wiped the floor with Jenson for much of the year and in a more dominant fashion to the previous year IMO. The points at the end of that year barely told a true story to what happened on track in my view. I just want to see Jenson have a good year where he truly out performs his team mate and deals with the problems rather than complaining about the usual lack of grip, can't get heat in the tyres and the odd radio message where he informs the team the car is un-driveable whilst his team mate battles ahead of him. Jenson can be a frustrating driver to watch for me and as much as its a pleasure to see him do well and win, its also something that shouldn't really be a surprise considering the success around him and the support system he has. Being out qualified and performed by an unpredictable Perez really shouldn't be happening for a driver of his calibre and experience. He needs to address the issues himself as the car can obviously go faster as demonstrated. Hamilton has a similar situation at Mercedes although not as bad as he's within a couple of tenths of Rosberg but like Jenson has outperformed his team mate too this season.

[zako85]

One problem they could have though is that 2014 marks the end of the engine freeze and McLaren is not a works team. If there is an on-going in-season engine development, the factory team is going to get priority, while at the moment all engines seem virtually matched.

We can remember that 10 and more years ago there was certainly a horsepower deficiency in customer engines compared to works engines. For instance we can recall that back in 1993 the same McLaren's Ford engine was rumoured to have something like 30 or 50 HP less than the 'works' Benetton team.

Fair enough. However, back in 1993 Benetton supposedly had an exclusive works agreement with Ford that prevented customer engines from having the latest technology in them. Based on one source, I heard that the customer Ford engine was 1 year old. From other source, just a few months old, not a huge deal. Anyways, that didn't seem to hurt McLaren-Ford a lot, as Senna ended up beating both Damon Hill and Schumacher, who was driving the Benetton. No one knows what the current agreements are. Granted, in the wicked world of F1 competition such agreements can not be enforced 100%.

[CaptainRaiden]

I have been saying this since last year right from the time Hamilton signed the contract with Mercedes. I said right then and there Mclaren were gonna struggle with Button as their number one driver. Even made a bet with F1boat that Lewis will finish higher than Button in the points table in 2013, whereas he was quite adamant it would be the other way around. I hope everything is alright with F1boat, as he's disappeared from the forum.

Of course Mclaren need to produce a good car, at least an equal or a competitive car, but at the moment they don't have a top tier driver to take it to the top step. Sorry Button or Perez fans, they are not top tier drivers. We will wait and see on Perez, as he has started to outqualify Button (something I again expected) but at this point he's not got the X factor. Sure, if you have a freakishly dominant car, any half decent driver can win the WDC, but that's not what Mclaren is producing now, is it?

Mclaren desperately NEED a top tier driver, plain and simple. Someone who can get the job done even if the car is not quite there, or someone who can hit the sweet spot with the setup more often than not. People always keep throwing the 2011 points table stat to put Button in a positive light, which is getting quite annoying now, and forget that there were plenty of races in 2010 and 2012 where Lewis was winning races or in a race winning position and Button was NOWHERE, not even in the top 5. It's like they weren't even watching the races. Yes, 2011 was a bad year for Lewis, and Button finished 2nd, BUT Button's 2nd was further from Vettel in terms of points than Hamilton's 4th was in 2012.

If we're really talking about stats, then they should look at these stats too:

Hamilton and Button (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/hamilton-and-buttons-head-to-head-record-at-mclaren/)


Hamilton v Button stats compared (highest respective tally in bold)

Qualifying

Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races

Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13!! / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship

Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672 (Hamilton has had 5 more DNFs, 3 mechanical failures while leading a race)
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)

Very easy to quote total points without looking at DNFs.

As a team, you cannot expect your top driver to be a fair weather driver, only capable of winning when he has the perfect car under him. The rest of the time it's annoying whinge galore, whether it's no grip, no heat in tyres, understeer, oversteer or telling on his faster, more aggressive teammate to Uncle Titmarsh. This isn't a video game, this is real racing. You want an Alonso, Kimi, Lewis or a Vettel in your car to drag it to the top or squeeze performance out of it, not Button.

[ioan]

Thoughts on the struggles of McLaren? Do you still view them as a genuine top team, a match to RBR/Ferrari over a full season? What about the rise of Mercedes/Lotus? If you were a driver, would you now consider these two teams as a better long-term prospect in getting a drive if you had a choice?

Tires.

[faster69]

You're not gonna win a championship unless you produce a car superior to the opposition.

Not necessarily. Look at Vettel right now in the third best car and he's leading the championship. You give Vettel a car as good as the Ferrari or Lotus and he wins the championship if luck and reliability are equal. Button needs a car far superior to the Red Bull to have a hope of winning the championship.

[faster69]

Fair enough. However, back in 1993 Benetton supposedly had an exclusive works agreement with Ford that prevented customer engines from having the latest technology in them. Based on one source, I heard that the customer Ford engine was 1 year old. From other source, just a few months old, not a huge deal. Anyways, that didn't seem to hurt McLaren-Ford a lot, as Senna ended up beating both Damon Hill and Schumacher, who was driving the Benetton. No one knows what the current agreements are. Granted, in the wicked world of F1 competition such agreements can not be enforced 100%.

Senna was triple world champion in the prime of his career, Schumacher was in his third full season (car didn't have active suspension, a semi-automatic gearbox and traction control until the middle of the season unlike the McLaren) and Hill was in his first season. Hardly a fair comparison. Schumacher was generally more impressive that year though people only remember Donnington.

[Big Ben]

oh great... one more delusional fan

[faster69]

Which point did you disagree with? By the start of 1994 it was clear that Schumacher was better than Senna. In Brazil Schumacher got the lead after the first pit stop then never let go until Senna's engine blew up with 15 laps left. Senna was getting pole, but he had the fastest car on the grid.

Schumacher was amazing in 1993 considering he had poor reliability and what was a primitive car compared to the Williams and McLaren.

Senna should have been blowing Schumacher out of the water in Brazil with the car advantage he had in 1994.

[SGWilko]

Which point did you disagree with? By the start of 1994 it was clear that Schumacher was better than Senna. In Brazil Schumacher got the lead after the first pit stop then never let go until Senna's engine blew up with 15 laps left. Senna was getting pole, but he had the fastest car on the grid.

Schumacher was amazing in 1993 considering he had poor reliability and what was a primitive car compared to the Williams and McLaren.

Senna should have been blowing Schumacher out of the water in Brazil with the car advantage he had in 1994.

Are you sure the Benetton was the more primitive car in '93. Motorsport at the time were suggesting that their active ride was one of the best on the grid. They simply lacked the grunt from the powerplant.

As for the Williams being the better car at the start of the '94 season, I rather suspect it was 'fundamentally' a better car once it was developed, which was not until the were well into the European leg of the season.

Senna was in a different league to Hill, no doubts there, and if Hill 'nearly' won it in '94, had he survived I rather suspect Senna would have walked it.

[henners88]

Well this is the first time I've seen the claim Schumacher was better than Senna in 1994. I think even he would be embarrassed by such a claim even though he never got the chance to prove it.

[faster69]

Are you sure the Benetton was the more primitive car in '93. Motorsport at the time were suggesting that their active ride was one of the best on the grid. They simply lacked the grunt from the powerplant.

Nah, the McLaren was the better car. Benetton were about a year behind the curve compared to Williams.


As for the Williams being the better car at the start of the '94 season, I rather suspect it was 'fundamentally' a better car once it was developed, which was not until the were well into the European leg of the season.

Nah, it had great pace immediately. Senna stuck it on pole the first three races. Hill was easily outqualifying the other Benetton. You're drawing a long bow to suggest it wasn't the best car on the grid from that first race.


Senna was in a different league to Hill, no doubts there, and if Hill 'nearly' won it in '94, had he survived I rather suspect Senna would have walked it.

Hill only nearly won it because Schumacher was black flagged while leading the British Grand Prix for passing on the parade lap. He ended up finishing second, but was stripped of it. Stripped of another win because the plank under the car and then banned for two races for what happened in the British Grand Prix. Hill won both those races in Schumacher's absence.

That's a 40 point turnaround. Hill had no right to be in contention for the championship and it would have been a joke for Hill to have won since Schumacher had been by far the best driver of 1994 in the races before Senna died and after.

All evidence points to Schumacher having already surpassed Senna by early 1994. Schumacher was leading races with inferior machinery to the Williams.

[zako85]

There is no doubt in my mind that Benetton was the fastest car for much 1994. This is the first time I hear a claim to the contrary. The delta between Hill's and Schumacher's performance was huge. Schumacher cruised to victory even once handed a two race ban and disqualifications from two other races. You can still argue Hill may have been simply the worse driver, but I'd disagree. 1993 was Hill's first full time year in F1, and he quite impressed riding side by side with Prost, which was a very good yardstick for judging Hill. Also do not forget the massive allegations of cheating against Benetton, from launch control, engine maps to illegal refueling valves. Schumacher probably tried to forget 1994 as soon as possible as there will be forever the question mark about whether he won it in a cheater car. On the other hand, if Hill had won it, and Hill was close, I think he wouldn't have been proud of it either, having beaten the guy who was absent from championship scores for four races. It was kind of an ugly season for all parties involved.

I am not sure why this debate is being resurrected though. All I did at the start is claim that using the customer Ford engine which lagged behind Benetton in 1993 does not seem to have hurt McLaren a lot. Even the "works" Ford engine used by Benetton wasn't that special. This is why Benetton dumped it at the first opportunity.

[faster69]

There is no doubt in my mind that Benetton was the fastest car for much 1994. This is the first time I hear a claim to the contrary. The delta between Hill's and Schumacher's performance was huge.

That's because Schumacher was a far superior driver to Hill. You obviously haven't been watching long or never paid attention if you believe the Williams was anything but the best car on the grid in 1994.


Schumacher cruised to victory even once handed a two race ban and disqualifications from two other races. You can still argue Hill may have been simply the worse driver, but I'd disagree. 1993 was Hill's first full time year in F1, and he quite impressed riding side by side with Prost, which was a very good yardstick for judging Hill. Also do not forget the massive allegations of cheating against Benetton, from launch control, engine maps to illegal refueling valves. Schumacher probably tried to forget 1994 as soon as possible as there will be forever the question mark about whether he won it in a cheater car. On the other hand, if Hill had won it, and Hill was close, I think he wouldn't have been proud of it either, having beaten the guy who was absent from championship scores for four races. It was kind of an ugly season for all parties involved.

Hill was an underrated driver, but he was far inferior to Schumacher. Prost comfortably won his duel with Hill, though Hill was impressive. There were allegations of cheating against Ferrari too. Nothing was ever proven with Benetton apart from the plank. Hardly the reason why Schumacher was so dominant.


I am not sure why this debate is being resurrected though. All I did at the start is claim that using the customer Ford engine which lagged behind Benetton in 1993 does not seem to have hurt McLaren a lot. Even the "works" Ford engine used by Benetton wasn't that special. This is why Benetton dumped it at the first opportunity.

Benetton was worse than the McLaren in 1993. Didn't even have a semi-automatic gearbox, traction control and active suspension until mid-season.

[zako85]

^

I would strongly disagree that nothing has been proven about Benetton's cheating. Yes, formally, nothing significant has been proven and Benetton was simply allowed to walk away without much public. In reality there were plenty of warning signs that Benetton was cheating. For one, even Schumacher had at one point a slip of tongue when publicly admitting that his car was fitted with launch control. The FIA action was mild because the season was already marred by the death of Ayrton Senna. A big public scandal was not what they needed. Schumacher got handed a few harsh penalties (for other things) and the matter was effectively closed. In the light of all of this, I am shocked that _anybody_ takes the 1994 season seriously and even uses season to judge drivers and teams. Its preposterous to also make the claim that Schumacher was clearly better than Senna. Let me remind you that Senna crashed and died in the third race in 1994. How can you possibly draw any conclusions on Senna vs Schumacher from 1994 season? As for 1993, Senna has beat Schumacher by a wide margin. Granted Schumacher drove well and admirably in arguably an inferior car, but nonetheless with a Ford works engine against McLaren's customer Ford engine.

I am sorry but your whole argument is extremely weak. I have seen this before. In your book, if someone beats Schumacher it's always because of having better car. But if Schumacher win, it's solely due to his superior skills. A classic funboyish argument we heard many times as being applied to Alonso, Vettel, <insert name> more recently. 1994 was a good counter argument to that theory. There is plenty of evidence for Benetton having the better car that season, some of that due to a good design and some due to cheating. How well that car started and then quickly peeled off from the rest was one evidence. But in your book Schumy wins in a slower car because he is a better driver than Hill. Anyways. We heard this before many times.

[faster69]

In 1993 Schumacher was more impressive than Senna in a Benetton that didn't have active suspension, a semi-automatic gearbox, and traction control until mid-season. In 1994 he started were he finished in 1993 and with an improved Benetton was actually getting the better of Senna on the track. He humiliated Senna in Brazil. Senna had jumped specifically to the best team on the grid and thought the championship was already his. I can't believe anyone takes seriously allegations of cheating by a egomaniacal sociopath like Senna. Senna couldn't believe how much speed Schumacher would carry into a corner, therefore it must be cheating? No, that's down to what was Schumacher's unique driving style at the time. Throughout his career he managed to carry more speed into corners than any other driver.

You're obviously new to F1 if you think the 94 Benetton was even remotely on the level of the Williams.

[SGWilko]

Senna had jumped specifically to the best team on the grid.

Which it was in '93, no question, but even Senna ran rings round the '93 Williams and Prost on occasion.

In '94, Williams struggled initially to adjust to the banning of TC, Active Ride and ABS. Once they had adjusted the car accordingly through development, the car became the class of the field in the latter half of the season, by which time Ayrton was pushing up the daisy's.

The Italian courtcase took a lot of focus away from the Williams team, and you can well understand that.

[henners88]

I'm not new to F1 but I can draw my opinion from reading and listening to the opinions of Senna, Newey and Hill when they said the package in early 1994 was troublesome and didn't reach its true potential until the start of the European season. Loss of driver aids didn't help.

This is heavily off topic in any case and lets hope McLaren are not about to go into a season like 1994 when they revert to Honda engines for 2015. They've lost key personnel and understanding the car has been difficult.

[Knock-on]

Schumy was obviously a better driver. Who else could rapidly alternate his brakes on and off mid corner to achieve computer accurate levels of grip. If only there were photos. ;)

[SGWilko]

Schumy was obviously a better driver. Who else could rapidly alternate his brakes on and off mid corner to achieve computer accurate levels of grip. If only there were photos. ;)

Ah the benfits of audio analysis.

[Knock-on]

There is a great clip of him 'not' using Foustos favourite electronic engineers handy work but it might be lost in the depth of the inter web these days. Perhaps Uncs still has it :) where is the ole sod when you need him?

[Mark]

It now seems that Mercedes have picked up in 2013 where McLaren left off in 2012. Almost a straight swap!

I hope to be proved wrong but I don't expect much from McLaren this year or next while they are still running Mercedes engines. It'll only be once they get Honda power they'll start to come good again.

[zako85]

It now seems that Mercedes have picked up in 2013 where McLaren left off in 2012. Almost a straight swap!

I hope to be proved wrong but I don't expect much from McLaren this year or next while they are still running Mercedes engines. It'll only be once they get Honda power they'll start to come good again.


Button's interview with NBC's Will Buxton didn't sound very encouraging. We're very close to a point where McLaren will write off this season completely and work on the new car for 2014 IMHO.

[truefan72]

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.
The Mclaren way and culture is starting to not be an attractive prospect for top engineers and folks anymore and their continued 2013 struggles are unfolding in a troubling way that can directly be matched to the early days of ther williams downfall. This is also accompined by a duo of drivers who are not ideal for further developing this car. Button seems to think he is entitled to beat his temmate rather than race against him. He will never extract more out of the car than it is capable off and all too often actually underperforms it wrapped in a cloud of frustration and dismay. Many times giving up before sunday has even arrived. Perez on the other hand is too raw of a driver at this point but is inherantly quicker than button. The car is not that good and he struggles to extract more out of it as well. Mclaren missed their chance with Hulkenberg IMO.

What they need is some outside talent to come into the fold and shake up their thinking process. Yes they produce excellent cars every odd year, and they might sort it out eventually with the 2013 car if they stick with it, but all signs point towards a further decline for the forseable futue if button remains and the culture persists.

[steveaki13]

Mclaren do seem very stale at the moment, but lets not forget just last year they had one of the best cars on the grid, but that said they havent really delivered the titles their cars have warranted. i.e 2005,2007,2010,2011,2012. All seasons where Mclaren could have won a title, given different things happening here and there

[Knock-on]

It's a very tricky time out there. People predicting the decline of McLaren better get ready to taste crow. This is the most successful team in F1 since they entered the sport lets not forget.

Lets wait and see ;)

[zako85]

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.

There is always some bits of insider information, unknown to us, that can logically explain Hamilton's move to Mercedes. This situation also reminds me Schumacher's move from Benetton to Ferrari. At that time, everyone thought he was nuts, but then Benetton went on a decline and Ferrari started improving.

[airshifter]

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.
The Mclaren way and culture is starting to not be an attractive prospect for top engineers and folks anymore and their continued 2013 struggles are unfolding in a troubling way that can directly be matched to the early days of ther williams downfall. This is also accompined by a duo of drivers who are not ideal for further developing this car. Button seems to think he is entitled to beat his temmate rather than race against him. He will never extract more out of the car than it is capable off and all too often actually underperforms it wrapped in a cloud of frustration and dismay. Many times giving up before sunday has even arrived. Perez on the other hand is too raw of a driver at this point but is inherantly quicker than button. The car is not that good and he struggles to extract more out of it as well. Mclaren missed their chance with Hulkenberg IMO.

What they need is some outside talent to come into the fold and shake up their thinking process. Yes they produce excellent cars every odd year, and they might sort it out eventually with the 2013 car if they stick with it, but all signs point towards a further decline for the forseable futue if button remains and the culture persists.

Well for sure, something isn't right. It seems that since the combination of Hakkinen and Coulthard they have had difficulty keeping a pair of drivers who seem content with the team and has a good combination of capabilities. If you go back to the year 2000, they have had 5 WDCs on the team since... but haven't wrapped up a constructors title. The only one still retained won the WDC in a grossly dominant car. Yet the drivers they have let go have proven to be able to push in other cars, and in some cases win titles in other cars.

Granted it is hard to live up to the reputation they had in the 80s and early 90s, but something has stagnated and gone wrong that they keep getting so behind in development.

[jens]

Truefan, interesting thoughts about McLaren and their culture. What is clear is that these days you need to be very open-minded and flexible to succeed. Attract the best people around the world and adapt to their needs and preferences to get the best out of each person and work in harmony. I can't measure, what is McLaren's situation, but IMO they have gone backwards in the last few years in their depth of the team, even if the fall has seemed sudden (very fast car in 2012).

I may explain it further. In 2008-2010 McLaren seemed like the most complete team on the grid. Even if they struggled, they could fix issues, develop fast and race operations were top-notch. Recall mid-2010, when Hamilton and Button were first and second in the drivers championship. However, they hit a problem in car development and fell to 4th and 5th. This was the first sign of McLaren's weakness. Their in-season development wasn't as impressive as thought to be.

Pre-2011 they had big problems in testing. Somehow they overcame these by the first race and in the end the car was pretty fast, but in strategies and race operations they were already struggling to match RBR and even Ferrari. While in 2010 RBR was still inferior to McLaren in "completeness" of the team.

For 2012 they once again had a fundamentally fast car, but problems became even deeper. An inconsistent car, which in some conditions hardly worked plus big setup issues. So big that Button turned into a slower driver than he had ever been before! Surely it unveiled a weakness in Button, but it also shows team's weakness that they can't get the best out of a driver any more.

2013? Now they have a slow car. Once again setup issues. Once again struggling to develop a car during a season. Why did they ditch 2012 design? Because they thought they would be unable to develop it properly. So IMO this shows a deeper issue in the team. Regardless of which car they have, they have problems in maximizing its potential.

Bottom line is that in one aspect McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda. This is an important ability, because without that McLaren could well fall into a long-term trouble. Something in which Williams already is as they are not able to attract big corporations and frankly aren't open-minded enough either.

How open is McLaren? Can't say for sure, but there are strong rumours about their corporate culture, which doesn't suit everyone. Including Newey, who ran away to RBR to have more freedom. Much like he had ran away from Williams to McLaren earlier...

[SGWilko]

McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda.

Williams attracted BMW after their initial decline, but no championships.......

[truefan72]

Truefan, interesting thoughts about McLaren and their culture. What is clear is that these days you need to be very open-minded and flexible to succeed. Attract the best people around the world and adapt to their needs and preferences to get the best out of each person and work in harmony. I can't measure, what is McLaren's situation, but IMO they have gone backwards in the last few years in their depth of the team, even if the fall has seemed sudden (very fast car in 2012).

I may explain it further. In 2008-2010 McLaren seemed like the most complete team on the grid. Even if they struggled, they could fix issues, develop fast and race operations were top-notch. Recall mid-2010, when Hamilton and Button were first and second in the drivers championship. However, they hit a problem in car development and fell to 4th and 5th. This was the first sign of McLaren's weakness. Their in-season development wasn't as impressive as thought to be.

Pre-2011 they had big problems in testing. Somehow they overcame these by the first race and in the end the car was pretty fast, but in strategies and race operations they were already struggling to match RBR and even Ferrari. While in 2010 RBR was still inferior to McLaren in "completeness" of the team.

For 2012 they once again had a fundamentally fast car, but problems became even deeper. An inconsistent car, which in some conditions hardly worked plus big setup issues. So big that Button turned into a slower driver than he had ever been before! Surely it unveiled a weakness in Button, but it also shows team's weakness that they can't get the best out of a driver any more.

2013? Now they have a slow car. Once again setup issues. Once again struggling to develop a car during a season. Why did they ditch 2012 design? Because they thought they would be unable to develop it properly. So IMO this shows a deeper issue in the team. Regardless of which car they have, they have problems in maximizing its potential.

Bottom line is that in one aspect McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda. This is an important ability, because without that McLaren could well fall into a long-term trouble. Something in which Williams already is as they are not able to attract big corporations and frankly aren't open-minded enough either.

How open is McLaren? Can't say for sure, but there are strong rumours about their corporate culture, which doesn't suit everyone. Including Newey, who ran away to RBR to have more freedom. Much like he had ran away from Williams to McLaren earlier...
:up: very well said Jens

[heliocastroneves#3]

McLaren is now a mid-field team but they will be up front again in the future. Remember 1978-1979 or 1994-1996, when the team struggled as well.. Of course when you'd think they had to drive in the top 6 in order to get points back in those times, this years' car seems to be the worst of all. On the other side: Back in those times we had a lot of retirements during a race and nowadays almost everyone finishes the race, if there would be as much DNF's per race nowadays as they had back in the old days, this car would have been on the podium already, if not in victory lane. I'm not a McLaren fan but I hope they will find their way to the top again, 2014 might become another awful season but real McLaren fans should look forward to 2015... Honda knows how to build good engines..

[DexDexter]

McLaren is now a mid-field team but they will be up front again in the future. Remember 1978-1979 or 1994-1996, when the team struggled as well.. Of course when you'd think they had to drive in the top 6 in order to get points back in those times, this years' car seems to be the worst of all. On the other side: Back in those times we had a lot of retirements during a race and nowadays almost everyone finishes the race, if there would be as much DNF's per race nowadays as they had back in the old days, this car would have been on the podium already, if not in victory lane. I'm not a McLaren fan but I hope they will find their way to the top again, 2014 might become another awful season but real McLaren fans should look forward to 2015... Honda knows how to build good engines..

Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

[steveaki13]

Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.

[DexDexter]

The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.

Yep, I don't doubt that, it's just that people keep saying Honda produces great engines but I don't see them anywhere, at least not in their passenger cars. I mean look at their normally aspirated engines, they're nothing special. The Koreans, for example, produce better ones not to mention makers that've gone the turbo route. Still, it's great to see them back.

[zako85]

Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

Honda's naturally aspirated engines are world class. Moreover, it's quite interesting that Honda pretty much refused so far to invest in turbo engines. Instead, they developed this new "Earth Dreams" engine that's now in the 2013 North American Accord (the 2.4L) version. By all accounts it's a class leader right now. Point. Nothing comes close. It gives excellent performance, compared to all competing engines, including turbo, and probably the best fuel economy in class. The power output is considered to be "underrated" from factory. The behemoth 2013 Accord with 2.4L can accellerate 0-60mph under 7 seconds and deliver near 40mpgs on highway. Neither Honda engines are "lazy". Honda's Civic SI always competed pretty well against the equally priced VW GTI and Jetta GLI with 1.8/2.0T engines, beating VAG cars on trace track tests on regular basis, and the SI still doesn't have the new earth dreams engine yet. In any case, the road car engines have very little relevance to F1. Honda has the potential to deliver a great F1 engine of any type, as they did on many occasions. In the 80s their turbo and naturally aspirated engines were dominant. Since 2012, Honda was building the V6 turbo engines for IndyCar.

So why did the things go wrong for Honda in 2000s? Most car companies do not understand well how to run a Formula 1 team IMO. In the past 20 years, Renault was the only manufacturer team that managed to do well. The problem that every new engine manufacturer faces is this: how can we put our engine into a great car? In the early 2000s, the engine "seats" at all good teams were already taken, so Honda took over a whole team, as did Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, and later BMW. Another problem with this approach is that you end up having to fund the whole team, not just the engine development, while the independent teams are usually better scouts for 3rd party sponsors. In 2015, the situation will be reminiscent of the 80s when Honda just made engines and just gave them to professionals. Post-2013 is a good time for Honda to enter as McLaren has just divorced from Mercedes ownership. Still, it's entirely possible that the relationship can have a very slow start, sort of like McLaren had with Peugeot and Mercedes in the 90s.

Sometime luck plays good role to identify some thing for someone. Same things happens with McLaren but they will improve it soon.

[DexDexter]

Honda's naturally aspirated engines are world class. Moreover, it's quite interesting that Honda pretty much refused so far to invest in turbo engines. Instead, they developed this new "Earth Dreams" engine that's now in the 2013 North American Accord (the 2.4L) version. By all accounts it's a class leader right now. Point. Nothing comes close. It gives excellent performance, compared to all competing engines, including turbo, and probably the best fuel economy in class. The power output is considered to be "underrated" from factory. The behemoth 2013 Accord with 2.4L can accellerate 0-60mph under 7 seconds and deliver near 40mpgs on highway. Neither Honda engines are "lazy". Honda's Civic SI always competed pretty well against the equally priced VW GTI and Jetta GLI with 1.8/2.0T engines, beating VAG cars on trace track tests on regular basis, and the SI still doesn't have the new earth dreams engine yet. In any case, the road car engines have very little relevance to F1. Honda has the potential to deliver a great F1 engine of any type, as they did on many occasions. In the 80s their turbo and naturally aspirated engines were dominant. Since 2012, Honda was building the V6 turbo engines for IndyCar.

So why did the things go wrong for Honda in 2000s? Most car companies do not understand well how to run a Formula 1 team IMO. In the past 20 years, Renault was the only manufacturer team that managed to do well. The problem that every new engine manufacturer faces is this: how can we put our engine into a great car? In the early 2000s, the engine "seats" at all good teams were already taken, so Honda took over a whole team, as did Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, and later BMW. Another problem with this approach is that you end up having to fund the whole team, not just the engine development, while the independent teams are usually better scouts for 3rd party sponsors. In 2015, the situation will be reminiscent of the 80s when Honda just made engines and just gave them to professionals. Post-2013 is a good time for Honda to enter as McLaren has just divorced from Mercedes ownership. Still, it's entirely possible that the relationship can have a very slow start, sort of like McLaren had with Peugeot and Mercedes in the 90s.

I have no experience of American Hondas but I've tried recent Honda CR-V and Accord with 2-litre normally aspirated engines and I tell you, even the smallest 1.2 TSI 105hp from Vag feels a lot more punchy and gives a better fuel economy. But this is bit offtopic anyway, It's great to see Honda back. Their F1 engines were great between 1987-1991, but can they repeat that? I don't know...

[SGWilko]

I have no experience of American Hondas but I've tried recent Honda CR-V and Accord with 2-litre normally aspirated engines and I tell you, even the smallest 1.2 TSI 105hp from Vag feels a lot more punchy and gives a better fuel economy. But this is bit offtopic anyway, It's great to see Honda back. Their F1 engines were great between 1987-1991, but can they repeat that? I don't know...

I inherited an Accord Tourer from work, it had the new 2.2iCTDi lump. Very quiet, clean, powerful and frugal. Not bad for their first diesel.

[Mark]

The car design is a big issue. Red Bull of course didn't come up with their car overnight or even in one year, it's a good design which has been refined again and again. Whereas the likes of McLaren who find themselves down the wrong route have to start again from scratch and you can't start from scratch and compete against a car which has had years of development behind it. Unless the rules change, hence Brawn in 2009.

[zako85]

The car design is a big issue. Red Bull of course didn't come up with their car overnight or even in one year, it's a good design which has been refined again and again. Whereas the likes of McLaren who find themselves down the wrong route have to start again from scratch and you can't start from scratch and compete against a car which has had years of development behind it. Unless the rules change, hence Brawn in 2009.

I don't think a successful car _needs_ years of development. Extensive experience with what works and what not certainly helps. A team can frequently completely reverse its fortunes simply over the course of the end of year break. What worries more is the engines. An engine can't be redesigned overnight. A big part of Ferrari's collapse in the first half of 90s was the V12 engine that wasn't competitive. It took them many years to replace it. Looking at the development pace of the new turbo engines, the whole cycle from clean sheet to working engine probably has to take at least two years if not more.

[mason riley]

McLaren will bounce back. They just need time. Just wait and see.

[SGWilko]

McLaren will bounce back. They just need time. Just wait and see.

Time is not a luxury one is afforded in F1.........

[zako85]

Time is not a luxury one is afforded in F1.........

McLaren evidently can afford to take its sweet time. No constructor titles since 1998. They'll bounce, eventually.

[andyone]

they had there chance with lewis hamilton adn screwd it up all them years. now no chance at all.

[The Black Knight]

McLaren evidently can afford to take its sweet time. No constructor titles since 1998. They'll bounce, eventually.

Exactly. Absurd for a team of their lineage to not have a constructors in that length of time. They could have in 2007 had they not been excluded.

Still, ridiculous situation for McLaren at the moment. If I were a driver I wouldn't want to drive for them. I'd be a nearly man. Might get lucky once every 15 years and that's about it. I'd also be willing to bet that's a lot of the reason as to why Lewis left.

i definitely view them as a geniuine top team ...

[N. Jones]

It pains me too much to talk about McLaren. :o uch:! Just mentioning the name hurts...

[samreddevilz]

You're not gonna win a championship with Button as your number one driver unless you produce a car far superior to the opposition.

agree with you man.

[Eunos]

As a Mclaren fan, this has been a very painful season thus far.

Unfortunatly we're approaching that part of the season now where even if they did return to winning ways it's pretty much too little too late.

I like Jenson Button but have to somewhat agree that his only at his best when the Car is, Hamilton proved himself in 2009 by pushing a very mediocre Car to it's limits, No doubt had he stayed at Mclaren this year He would probably still have more Points than Button and Perez combined.

Still keeping my fingers cross they might at least achieve a Podium before the end of the year, but I'm certainly not going to be placing any bets.

It's when teams like Caterham and Marussia start out pacing them that's when I'll start worrying :P

[vhatever]

I like Jenson Button but have to somewhat agree that his only at his best when the Car is, Hamilton proved himself in 2009 by pushing a very mediocre Car to it's limits, No doubt had he stayed at Mclaren this year He would probably still have more Points than Button and Perez combined.

Still keeping my fingers cross they might at least achieve a Podium before the end of the year, but I'm certainly not going to be placing any bets.



Are you saying that in 2011 Mclaren had the best car? So lewy finished 5th while driving the best car? Your logic here seems pretty daft.

[RedBullian1]

I think the Honda engines in 2015 could be a huge help for them

[Brown, Jon Brow]

With the loss of money that McLaren are going to win this year by finishing behind Force India, I'm beginning to wonder how much of a 'pay-driver' Sergio Perez is for the team........

[jens]

So it looks as though as unlike 2009 McLaren has not been able to recover during the year. Next year will show if this is a more permanent low. If Mercedes engines are as good as rumoured, it may enable the Woking team to have a shot at podiums again.

[JasonPotato]

Lets hope so, not the same seeing them scrap for a couple of points each race.

Not a fan of Perez either, seems he is a bit overly aggressive. Would be nice to see him finishing a few more races.

[acescribe]

It will be interesting to see if there is anything to come from the Ross Brawn "rumour"....

[airshifter]

The problem they now have is that they don't have drivers that can perform well with anything other than a great car. This alone will make development even worse, especially with Jenson being particular to setup.

It's sad to see really.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't see McLaren's problem in the drivers department. The problem is their current management, who read the 'Idiot's guide to F1' and then proceeded to make every error in the book. They had a winning car and IMHO it was equal if not faster than the Red Bull for most of 2012. And what do they do? They scrap it and start from scratch for 2013 - a year of what everybody knew that it would be a transitional year and that development would have to shift to 2014 early. Had they evolved the 2012 car and made it more reliable, as would have been logical, they'd have wins by now, not minor points.

[F1boat]

I agree that they leave such impression. But it isn't necessarily something set in stone. Does it mean McLaren in 2011 had a weak line-up? Because apparently the same Button was a team leader that year and seemingly did a very impressive job.

Sometimes I wonder, what would have happened if Hamilton left straight after 2011 and we would have the 2013 situation right after. Button would be considered a top driver and no-one would complain.

However, it has to be said that Button at the age of 33 can't afford to get beaten by Pérez any more. Of course it can't be said that driver at such relatively young age is "past his prime", evidenced by the impressive speed of Räikkönen at the same age. But Button is in such age, where he has to deliver and keep up his performance level, otherwise younger drivers would become more attractive for teams to hire.
McLaren's line up in 2011 was certainly weakened by an under-performing Lewis Hamilton and Button had a better year no doubt. He was consistent and got involved in less incidents to secure way more points. Then we had 2012 where Hamilton completely wiped the floor with Jenson for much of the year and in a more dominant fashion to the previous year IMO. The points at the end of that year barely told a true story to what happened on track in my view. I just want to see Jenson have a good year where he truly out performs his team mate and deals with the problems rather than complaining about the usual lack of grip, can't get heat in the tyres and the odd radio message where he informs the team the car is un-driveable whilst his team mate battles ahead of him. Jenson can be a frustrating driver to watch for me and as much as its a pleasure to see him do well and win, its also something that shouldn't really be a surprise considering the success around him and the support system he has. Being out qualified and performed by an unpredictable Perez really shouldn't be happening for a driver of his calibre and experience. He needs to address the issues himself as the car can obviously go faster as demonstrated. Hamilton has a similar situation at Mercedes although not as bad as he's within a couple of tenths of Rosberg but like Jenson has outperformed his team mate too this season.
Jenson is better than before his championship, but a little bit more smug, so not as likeable. Still, best of luck to him and McLaren. I would not like to see them weak as Williams.

[jens]

The problem they now have is that they don't have drivers that can perform well with anything other than a great car. This alone will make development even worse, especially with Jenson being particular to setup.

It's sad to see really.

Button was a regular podium visitor in previous years and this year he is yet to get onto the podium. This should tell enough about the dropped level of McLaren, regardless of drivers. And having a top driver doesn't make that much of a different to car development, making it from arguably fastest or joint fastest on the grid to distant 5th best.

Maybe Hamilton could have got an odd podium in this car, but does it really matter? The car is still rubbish by their standards.

[Mark]

I wonder if everyone is thinking too much about Brawns win in 2009 which they achieved by (as Honda) abandoning 2008 and putting everything in development for 2009. Several teams have tried it since and it didn't work!

McLaren try to be the most professional etc. but it isn't working!

[rjbetty]

It seems like McLaren are having a Renault 2007 style season.

[anfield5]

I don't really see what the issue is. Having the occasional bad year is par for the course with McLaren. They have always gone up and down, then up again. I don't see any reason why this will not be the case this time.

[zako85]

I don't really see what the issue is. Having the occasional bad year is par for the course with McLaren. They have always gone up and down, then up again. I don't see any reason why this will not be the case this time.


Indeed. A one-off, bad engineering decision during the per-season break. And past mid-season, it was really pointless to continue developing or changing car that represents and end of the era technology that will not be used next year. They won't lose their sleep over losing the 4th place in the WCC. Staying in front of Force India is good enough under these circumstances. Past 2014, McLaren will be effectively Honda's works team as God intended. The rivalry with Mecedes will be crazy. Have you guys already heard the rumor that Ross Brawn is talking to Honda?

[steveaki13]

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

[SGWilko]

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

[555-04Q2]

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

100% agree. I would actually tell them to take a hike and shove it where the sun don't shine!

[Mark]

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

[anfield5]

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

Is Honday going to be bank rolling the engine development themselves are are McLaren stumping up the cash to bring Honda in?

If it is the former, McLaren need to be very wary of them. But if McLaren are paying then there shouldn't be a problem.

I remember in the early 90's Porsche said they would not return to F1 unless a team paid for the engines and development costs themseves. Arrows took them up on the offer and the engine was an over-weight under-powered pile of crap.

[Mia 01]

I like Jenson, I do. But i have a strange feeling that it isn´t all about the car.

I

[AndyL]

Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

I don't agree with that at all. Honda acted more honourably than any other manufacturer pulling out of F1 that I can recall. They gave Ross Brawn the championship winning car and some walking around money to run it. They basically paid for Ross Brawn to win the championship under his own name and got none of the credit themselves.

That car was not fast just because of one trick. Other cars had the same thing at the start of the season. That car was fast because Honda had spent a year and a billion dollars developing it.

[Koz]

Toyota and Williams.

In the first few races Toyota wasn't really that much slower. The big difference was the Mercedes powerplant.
If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

[Mark]

Toyota and Williams.

In the first few races Toyota wasn't really that much slower. The big difference was the Mercedes powerplant.
If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

True, the strength of Brawn was the excellent chassis combined with the excellent Mercedes engine. If they'd remained as Honda then Brawn would have had a good year, but Red Bull would have won.

[zako85]

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

Honda is not erratic. Honda and other manufacturers have already made the "decision". The issue is that it's not really the decision. It's an algorithm. What do you do if you want to put your new engine into a great car? You give it RedBull in 2014 or to McLaren in early 2000s. Oh wait. The timing is wrong. Those teams already signed with a different engine manufacturer. What do you do then? You give the engine to a mid-field team? Ain't going to work. Besides the engine, you probably need to pump a lot of money into this team. This is something that a lot of companies are not comfortable doing. At this point, they would rather just buy the whole team. They don't want to trust a run out of the mill potentially incompetent mid-field team with the engine AND tens of millions of money. So this is why they feel far more comfortable taking over the whole team.

When Honda wanted to return in 21st century, the top teams were not "available", so they bought former BAR team and made it into Honda team. When Renault wanted to return, Williams was already a BMW shop, so Renault was forced to buy Benetton and setup a "Renault team". When BMW's relationship with Williams started to unravel, they tried to buy Williams, then bought Sauber instead. It seems like like setting up a factory team is a losing game. It's much better to leave this job to the professionals. Ford, Toyota, BMW, and Honda did not achieve much in the last decade. Mercedes took over McLaren for 15 years but had limited success (1 constructor title, 3 driver titles, and one big scandal). Only Renault did well as a factory team it seems. However, having figured out that running a successful F1 team is stupid expensive, Renault sold off its factory Renault team as soon as they got into a cozy relationship with a front running team, RedBull.

Honda has timed its current return to F1 very well. McLaren is no longer owned by Mercedes, but McLaren still buys Mercedes engines in order to compete against the Mercedes team. This is not a good position to be in for McLaren. Besides, McLaren probably thinks that a team of their caliber deserves not to pay exorbitant prices for their engine. The biggest mistake Honda made was to quit F1 after 1992. McLaren became a Mercedes shop and after that Honda was forced to fend for itself. Right now is a good timing to start supplying the engine to McLaren. I wish they didn't hesitate so long, and started supplying the engine in 2014. I hope this signals the return of the old Honda, the Honda that not only wins GPs, but also builds great road cars, like Acura NSX, Integra, and Honda S2000.

[Malbec]

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

I disagree. Honda acted honourably. If you want to see an example of a car company doing everything possible to destroy the team they wanted to abandon look at BMW. Refusing even to register the team for entry into F1's next season for example, and trying to sell the team to a bunch of fraudsters.

[Malbec]

If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

Debatable. Honda and Renault observed the engine freeze completely. Mercedes and Ferrari hadn't and their engines improved gradually leaving the other two behind.

For 2009 both Honda and Renault were allowed by the FIA to upgrade their engines to match that of Ferrari and Mercedes. We don't know how good the Honda engine would have been but it wouldn't have been as far behind the Mercedes as the 2008 powerplant was. Also Brawn couldn't develop the car through the 2009 season, in fact development slowed down dramatically from late 2008. If Honda had stayed in place development would have continued throughout the pre-season and the season itself...

BTW the deal with McLaren runs for around 10 years and spans many areas of which F1 is only one. Honda aren't going to pull out at short notice this time.

[Mia 01]

Even with the car they got now, a place on the podium in some race could have bee achieable during the year.

It´s sad, this was my favuorit team many years.

[steveaki13]

I do think if a Lewis, Kimi, Seb or Fernando was driving that car a podium may have been achieved this season.

Anyway Jenson is a good guy and if he can have a decent car next year he may have one final hurrah to try and win a race or two.

[N. Jones]

Is McLaren's fall due to a driver like Hamilton, who either brought speed? technique? Or is it due to the team losing engineers and mechanics?

I guess my question is - is it the car or the driver that makes it go fast?

[steveaki13]

Undoubtedly the car is slow because the team is failing to design a decent car, but I was just pointing out that the currant two drivers are probably the reason McLaren may go through a season with no podium.

[N. Jones]

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?

[Tazio]

Blast all this nonesense. I'm only disapointed in McLaren because I have the Mercedes lump in FGP, plus I have Perez :barf: ;(
and if McLaren didn't kinda really suck this year I'd have ended up in the top 5! :dork:

[henners88]

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?
For me Button has always been a solid driver, a guy who will score consistent points. However getting a car to his liking is often a tough task. He doesn't adapt like other drivers and I feel this costs him and his team dearly. Jenson is the type of driver you want as number 2, not leading your team. Perez lacks consistency do this is far from the title challenging duo McLaren really need IMO. Losing Lewis hurt I am beginning to think.

[N. Jones]

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014. Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

[Mia 01]

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

[henners88]

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!
I think their problems run a lot deeper than that. A decent driver wouldn't hurt their cause though.

[555-04Q2]

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!
I think their problems run a lot deeper than that. A decent driver wouldn't hurt their cause though.

Yes and yes. The car is obviously not up to scratch and while button is a decent driver, the like of a Lewis, Alonso, Seb etc would bring a bit more to the team.

[zako85]

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014.

That's a smart move. Every front-running team should get at least one Red Bull engineering ;)



Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

Was there any reason to believe that McLaren was still developing the 2013 car past mid-summer? I am just glad they still put enough gas into that turd of 2013 car.

[zako85]

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?

Any driver who gets to drive a championship winning car got lucky, because he gets helped by something outside of his control. Having said that, I think Button is a top notch driver but quite underrated. He won GPs in 5 different chassis built by three different teams, made a successful transition to from Brawn to McLaren car in 2010, and decidedly beat Hamilton in 2011. Even before 2009, he scored numerous podiums and one win for Honda.

[steveaki13]

I think an Alonso & Button line up would be very strong, especially with a decent car. Alonso to challenge for the title and JB is always consistant and can bring a car home for points.

[N. Jones]

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014.

That's a smart move. Every front-running team should get at least one Red Bull engineering ;)



Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

Was there any reason to believe that McLaren was still developing the 2013 car past mid-summer? I am just glad they still put enough gas into that turd of 2013 car.
I completely concur with this. They have single-handedly landed me last in FGP. The Wooden Spoon is almost mine!

[kfzmeister]

Alonso back at McLaren gives me a boner. Have to admit, for him to win it there in 2015 and beating Hamilton at Mercedes would be a dream scenario. Prodromou there as well as Honda and Brawn would be killer.
Alonso ties Ham in points in '07, then avenges his spoil 8 years later (geez, has it really been that long ago???? :erm:

[steveaki13]

(geez, has it really been that long ago???? :erm:

I know. Its unreal how F1 seasons go by. :crazy:

[henners88]

The years have flown by but when you look at how both Alonso and Hamilton have evolved as drivers, it seems like a lot of time has passed to me. They are still chasing another championship, however they've maintained their status and appeal on the grid. It's luck of the draw though, they could have a decent car next season for all we know at this point. :)

[steveaki13]

In 2007 and 2008 I was sure by now they both would have 1 more championship each. Shows what can happen.

[Parabolica]

Very little, if anything, in competitive sport remains static.

Every team, which is only as good as the sum of its parts, is dependant on the parts to add up to a succesful sum.

McLaren have suffered, from a variety of reasons, a talent-drain in recent years.

As Ferrari have shown, you don't just replace like-for-like.

It may well be that a new recruitment drive, will bring McLaren back to the front.

Or it could be that it is on a downward trajectory that is irreversible.

Or it could just be a bad year.

Ask me again in 16 years. That's how long it took the original Lotus to go.

[henners88]

In 2007 and 2008 I was sure by now they both would have 1 more championship each. Shows what can happen.
I expected McLaren and Ferrari to be competing at the front of the grid for a number of years, not just 2. Just shows how quickly f1 can change and if you'd have said Red Bull would be producing the best car for 4 years straight, I wouldn't have believed it. I also wouldn't have put any money on Hamilton leaving McLaren back then. The problem McLaren have is they've lost one of the most talented drivers of this generation and now have nobody in the drivers seat to push the car that bit further. In 2012 they produced a car that on paper was good enough to win the championship, however it was devastatingly unreliable and the team made catastrophic errors at vital moments. Button couldn't deliver in a car his team mate was putting at the front and McLaren need a driver now who is not fussy and can extract that bit extra. Losing Hamilton is a big chunk of their problem, but backwards development is now the sticking point IMO.

[Bezza]

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I'd expect Alonso to appear back there in 2015, with Hulkenberg or somebody similar - Di Resta maybe, or even Vergne.

I have a feeling 2014 will be Button's last at McLaren, possibly in F1, due to the weight rules. And I can't see Perez lasting beyond 2014, he may even leave at the end of this year.

[555-04Q2]

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I think 2014 will be a pretty open season, considering the total change in regs and the cars. I expect the racing at the front to be closer than we've seen over the last few seasons.

[henners88]

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I think 2014 will be a pretty open season, considering the total change in regs and the cars. I expect the racing at the front to be closer than we've seen over the last few seasons.
For the good of the sport long term I hope you are right. I don't say that because 'my favourite' isn't winning, I say it because I genuinely feel interest has dropped off over the past 2 season's and I don't want another 2004 slump. As long as the racing gets back to being close and there is at least some intrigue over who might win, I think that will restore interest. It would be nice to see a surprise at the front in terms of a driver who isn't yet rated as a top pilot too. I, like many others I assume are now looking towards 2014 as a year for something new. :)

[Parabolica]

I'd be surprised if much changes.

2009 was a rarity, partially due to the intensity of the 07 and 08 title battles taking up more and more resources of the top two teams of that era. That is something that isn't the case in 2013.

2005 was more down to Renault & Michelin hitting the sweet spot in their design philosophy and Bridgestone producing duds to nullify Ferrari, but the Renault/Michelin combination had been on the rise before then.

1983, when there was a huge change in regulations, changed nothing. The front teams were Brabham, Renault & Ferrari. Hardly a changing of the guard. Williams lost out due to the rise of the Turbo's, but that was hardly a new phenomenon in 83, it had been coming for 4 years.

Sorry to be the party pooper, but the cream always rises.

I for one don't expect a major change, and certainly don't expect a left-field, Brawn style challenger.

Mclaren's issues almost certainly go deeper than one iffy design, and that sort of issue is nearly always made worse by major regulation changes.

[anfield5]

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I'd expect Alonso to appear back there in 2015, with Hulkenberg or somebody similar - Di Resta maybe, or even Vergne.

I have a feeling 2014 will be Button's last at McLaren, possibly in F1, due to the weight rules. And I can't see Perez lasting beyond 2014, he may even leave at the end of this year.

I do hope you are wrong. Perez is a good (if somewhat raw) driver, he didn't luck into the results he had last year with Sauber. Given a decent car he will win races, lets not blame a driver for having to peddle an absolute dog of a car. As for JB, I think you are right about next year maybe being his swan song. If he does leave McLaren I don't see him driving anywhere else in F1, I would love to see him in sports car racing, his driving style would suit it. As far as I can remember JB signed a long-term contract with McLaren that tied him to the team beyond his driving career.

[Parabolica]

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

He can't design cars.

Or calibrate wind-tunnels.

[airshifter]

Great result for Perez today. Maybe there is some slight hope for the car after all.

[555-04Q2]

I doubt it, the car is still pretty average. Was a great drive by Perez though :) They will need a miracle to be at the front next year.

[Mark]

Alonso to McLaren won't happen, not least because of what happened last time he drove for them, but Alonso is at home in Ferrari and I can see him staying there until the end of his carrer. Then leaving for a couple of years and coming back for a couple of years after that but not being anywhere near as good; wait.

[henners88]

Alonso to McLaren won't happen, not least because of what happened last time he drove for them, but Alonso is at home in Ferrari and I can see him staying there until the end of his carrer. Then leaving for a couple of years and coming back for a couple of years after that but not being anywhere near as good; wait.
Just need a Spanish Factory team to make the leap into the sport in 2019 to tempt Fernando out of retirement. He'll need to have 3 years off and fall off a motorcycle in the mean time if the return is to work :p :)

[Mia 01]

If they got the car in reasonable good shape for next year they perhaps can reach a podium or a win, (no podium this far this year)

The truth is that they crave Alonso.

[zako85]

I think McLaren cars will under-perform in the next season just like they did this year. In short, their customer Mercedes engine will never be as good as it could have been. First, it's not clear if the Mercedes customer engine installed in McLarens will always have the latest and greatest improvements. I suspect that Mercedes will use their own car to test the latest and greatest technologies before shipping them to customers. Even if you assume that all Mercedes engines are identical, they all are going to be tailored best to the Mercedes car. After all, the Mercedes engine designers will probably have access to a lot more data from the Mercedes cars than from McLaren cars. Even if Mercedes engineers were willing to consider analyzing more McLaren data, I dount McLaren itself would be willing to share everything they have with the rivals. Finally, don't discount the possibility of Mercedes sabotaging the McLaren engines on purpose if McLaren comes close enough to challenging the Mercedes cars in the title fights. It's not a surprise that McLaren is willing to jump out of the Mercedes boat as soon as they can.