Mercedes accused of illegal tyre testing by Red Bull & Ferrari

[Zico]

Breaking news...

Mercedes are at the centre of a technical row in Formula 1 after doing a three-day tyre test between the Spanish and Monaco grands prix.
In-season testing in F1 is forbidden and Red Bull and Ferrari are considering a protest against Mercedes.


BBC Sport - Monaco Grand Prix: Mercedes face protest over tyre testing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22672228)

[Ranger]

If the FIA knew about it, I don't see how they could be punished?

[odykas]

Ross Brawn was caught cheating? :s hock:

I can't believe that! :dozey:

[Zico]

If the FIA knew about it, I don't see how they could be punished?

It has been updated: When I posted the link it didn't say the tests had been permitted by the FIA nor that they were testing possible tyres for next year.

[MAX_THRUST]

Doesn't seem to be that big of a story in one way, and a huge story in another. Tyres were for next year.....but have they gained an advantage? Depends what DAta they got from perilli about the tyres and the set up that they ran the cars with. I can understand other teams being hacked off but were they testing new parts other than tyres. Clearly the story would come out so they haven't treid to keep it a secret you cant.

[RS]

Does look a bit dodgy given that Merc are arguably the team with the largest problems understanding the tyres, and that they used both their race drivers. Couldn't they have used one of their test drivers for this job? Or even brought Michael out of retirement?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, it is a bit fishy to say the least. No matter if they tested next year's tyres or last week's, a three day test is quite a lot of running time that the other teams didn't have. Lauda just confirmed that the test had occurred and that Mercedes had been approached by Pirelli to do it. They informed FIA and Charlie Whiting and got the thumbs up. That's quite weird really. Giving one team the ok to run a 3 day test in such a competitive environment is a clumsy decision to say the least. Just trying to imagine the **** storm had it been Red Bull...

[Ranger]

Well, it is a bit fishy to say the least. No matter if they tested next year's tyres or last week's, a three day test is quite a lot of running time that the other teams didn't have. Lauda just confirmed that the test had occurred and that Mercedes had been approached by Pirelli to do it. They informed FIA and Charlie Whiting and got the thumbs up. That's quite weird really. Giving one team the ok to run a 3 day test in such a competitive environment is a clumsy decision to say the least. Just trying to imagine the **** storm had it been Red Bull...

The problem is that Charlie Whiting's opinion often doesn't match those of the stewards and the FIA's court of appeal.

Seems pretty dodgy, but they should be fine.

[Alfa Fan]

It's all so stupid. Teams will spend the money they have on whatever they can. If they can't on engines/testing it will just go on something else. The sooner it goes back to unrestricted engine development, much freer car design and unlimited testing the better.

[RS]

It's all so stupid. Teams will spend the money they have on whatever they can. If they can't on engines/testing it will just go on something else. The sooner it goes back to unrestricted engine development, much freer car design and unlimited testing the better.

I agree to an extent, although still think there should be a cap on testing but to allow some in season running too.

[Alfa Fan]

I agree to an extent, although still think there should be a cap on testing but to allow some in season running too.

The money just gets spent on increasingly elaborate simulation.

[Hawkmoon]

The rules permit in-season testing with an old car, no newer than 2010. Mercedes ran with their current car and therefore have breached the sporting regulations. It doesn't matter whether Pirelli asked them to test or whether Whiting gave them the OK, Mercedes know the regulations and, as I see it, willfully breached them. How can the FIA let this go? If they do then I can see the other teams lobbying Pirelli to do some 'tyre' testing and the spending days running around with new bits on the car.

This is going to sound sensationalist but I think Mercedes should be stripped of their constructors points.

[christophulus]

Looks like the FIA is going to throw them under the bus:

https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/338729311450308608/photo/1

[Mark]

Yep looks like Merc are for the high jump. Oops!

[RS]

Doubt they'll penalise Pirelli, otherwise they'll have no tyres for next year.

[ioan]

Doubt they'll penalise Pirelli, otherwise they'll have no tyres for next year.

Cause Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear, Dunlop, Continental, Hankook, Yokohama etc. all went out of business and we didn't notice it?
That FIA letter pretty much throws Pirelli into boiling water.

[christophulus]

What a complete cock up. All parties need to accept blame here - Pirelli and Mercedes for bending/breaking the rules (TBC), and the FIA for having no idea what one team and the only F1 tyre supplier were doing hanging around after the Spanish GP!

[ioan]

What a complete cock up. All parties need to accept blame here - Pirelli and Mercedes for bending/breaking the rules (TBC), and the FIA for having no idea what one team and the only F1 tyre supplier were doing hanging around after the Spanish GP!

Cause the FIA should hire detectives that follow what the teams ad the tire supplier are doing?
No way Jose, the FIA did their job, they set the rules/conditions for such a test to be able to take place, the rest was Pirelli's job to take care, i.e. inform all teams about the test under the agreed FIA conditions then set an official test date. It seems that Pirelli failed to do any of the above. Why? Their are either stupid or they wanted to manipulate F1 a bit more.

[Zico]

Cause the FIA should hire detectives that follow what the teams ad the tire supplier are doing?
No way Jose, the FIA did their job, they set the rules/conditions for such a test to be able to take place, the rest was Pirelli's job to take care, i.e. inform all teams about the test under the agreed FIA conditions then set an official test date. It seems that Pirelli failed to do any of the above. Why? Their are either stupid or they wanted to manipulate F1 a bit more.



I agree, why should Mercedes be punished because Pirelli failed to approach all the other teams?

[wedge]

I can see Horner's angle that there appears to be a conspiracy and surprise, surprise it involves Ross Brawn.

AMuS have alleged RBR as one of the teams Pirelli enquired. If well proven then in the wake of Malaysia Horner's politicking and leadership skills will be questioned - IMO RBR should have been the ones trying to gain the 'unfair advantage' which is part and parcel of motorsport.

[kfzmeister]

How can the tests be about next year's tires? They haven't even decided what sizes, etc. Besides, i'm sure they'll wanna test with a turbo spec car and that won't happen 'til after June.

This was indeed about tires for this season. Brawn states that none of the other teams were interested in helping Pirelli, so Mercedes did. Pirelli asked numerous times this year. The only thing that Pirelli was to do was to give other teams the same chance and I guess nobody stepped up to the plate.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't believe for a second that RB have been approached. They would have jumped at the chance like a pack of dogs on a three-legged cat. Monisha Kaltenborn of Sauber stated that Sauber has definitely not been asked by Pirelli, so speculation about other teams aside, there appears to be at least one team that was deliberately left in the dark and that's enough for a breach of rules.
Mercedes did nothing wrong. They were asked by Pirelli to show up for a 1.000km test with their current cars and there is a section in the rules, who allows that. They were not responsible for making sure that Pirelli follows the respective section in the rules completely, namely providing the same chance to other teams. It is Pirelli, who broke the rules, not Mercedes.

I think this calls for a little conspiracy theory. This years "tyres" were deliberately weakened at the flanks to stunt cars that generate high downforce and therefore high lateral loads in the corners. Just like FIA used the tire regs in 2005 to slow down Ferrari after 4 years of domination, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this was an attempt to end RB's dominant run. Problem is that unexpectedly Merc got their aero problems sorted out after three years of failure, so they were collateral damage. What was meant to stunt RBR, whacked Merc's car even harder. Now,most in the Bernie camp wouldn't give a rat's arse about a moaning lemonade factory, but nixing the car of a major works team is bad news, so Merc was given an extra test to make up for it. And lo and behold, RBR were still marginal on tyres in Monaco, while Merc weren't. Mission accomplished.

[wmcot]

This is actually a pretty mild thread - can you imagine the outcry if it had been Ferrari and they subsequently won the following race???? This board would be full of hatred and calls for disqualification and accusations of cheating.

The way I see it, it takes two to tango. Pirelli may have been wrong to ask Merc, but Merc were wrong for participating. Some penalty is needed...or give all the other teams 3 days of tests on Pirelli tires.

[AndyL]

Mercedes did nothing wrong. They were asked by Pirelli to show up for a 1.000km test with their current cars and there is a section in the rules, who allows that. They were not responsible for making sure that Pirelli follows the respective section in the rules completely, namely providing the same chance to other teams. It is Pirelli, who broke the rules, not Mercedes.

It's always a good idea to actually read the rules before commenting on them. There's nothing in the F1 regulations that allows this. (You want section 22 of the 2013 F1 sporting regulations.)

The testing regulations govern what the competitors may do, not the tyre supplier. If a team broke the testing restrictions, it's the team that broke the rules, not whoever asked them to do it.

The only way I can see that this is permitted is if the testing was not undertaken by Mercedes but by Pirelli. However since the testing was done using the regular race drivers and personnel, I think this would be hard to justify. Contrast the tyre testing that Renault did for Pirelli in the past, using an old car and with procedures in place to keep the tyre testing operations separate from the race team.


By the way (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/158432-2013-monaco-grand-prix-thread-7.html#post1134998) the regulations covering speed under safety car conditions when you're not directly behind it are 40.7, 40.9 and 40.12.

[Ranger]

...but they should be fine.

I think I should take this back. :\ Starting to look very serious.




"Pirelli is entitled under the terms of their agreement with the FIA to offer teams 1000km of tyre testing, subject to each team being treated equally," said the email.

"However there are no provisions within the Sporting Regulations for such testing to take place in-season.

"[FOTA has] spoken with Charlie [Whiting] to confirm the process going forward, and there are two options: 1. ALL teams want to take up Pirelli's offer and this is communicated to the FIA who will amend the Sporting Regulations; or 2. The test takes place out of season (and then the testing agreement comes into play)."

One month before the FOTA clarification, Pirelli wrote to the teams explaining that there was the possibility for 1000km of testing.

It was in this letter, sent by Pirelli to the teams, Bernie Ecclestone and the FIA, that the initial offer for teams to take part in such a test was made.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107726

The only way to address this is if every team now gets 1000km of testing.

I would prefer to see that than see Mercedes get DQ'd, which is starting to look like a possibility.

[Alfa Fan]

Mercedes and it's drivers will need to be thrown out of the championship entirely. It's even more clear cut than "spy-gate".

[BDunnell]

Mercedes and it's drivers will need to be thrown out of the championship entirely. It's even more clear cut than "spy-gate".

But did Merc know it was acting illegally? Apparently not.

And is there a set punishment for such a breach of the rules?

[Alfa Fan]

But did Merc know it was acting illegally? Apparently not.

And is there a set punishment for such a breach of the rules?

Ignorance is not usually mitigation.

I would hope so.

[BDunnell]

Ignorance is not usually mitigation.

In which case, Pirelli needs punishing too.

[christophulus]

Cause the FIA should hire detectives that follow what the teams ad the tire supplier are doing?
No way Jose, the FIA did their job, they set the rules/conditions for such a test to be able to take place, the rest was Pirelli's job to take care, i.e. inform all teams about the test under the agreed FIA conditions then set an official test date. It seems that Pirelli failed to do any of the above. Why? Their are either stupid or they wanted to manipulate F1 a bit more.

True, the FIA set the conditions. But as Brawn said, it should have been fairly obvious to everyone that Mercedes and Pirelli were hanging around after the Spanish GP, and it would have taken someone a matter of seconds to ask what was going on. It should have been equally obvious that Mercedes didn't have a spare trailer lying around with a 2011 car in.

The whole point of having a governing body is that they govern the sport i.e. enforce the rules. Again, it would have taken no time at all to either clarify that Mercedes were OK to test with the current car OR to remind them that they weren't.

I have a funny feeling someone's made a verbal commitment between the FIA and Pirelli, and now there's been an outcry there is now no longer any record of that conversation.

And if we're on conspiracy theories - maybe Pirelli is fed up of not getting the backing from the FIA for making the tyres fall apart faster, which is exactly what they were asked to do, so this is a bit of retaliation?

[Mark]

It doesn't help Mercedes case that they had been struggling with tyres so far this year. They then do a long tyre test and just by coincidence their tyre issues are resolved!

[BDunnell]

To me it's another indication of the extent to which tyres have assumed far too great an importance in modern F1.

[steveaki13]

It doesn't help Mercedes case that they had been struggling with tyres so far this year. They then do a long tyre test and just by coincidence their tyre issues are resolved!

That was Monaco. Lets see in Canada, only then will we see how their tyres last on a more normal circuit. Maybe even Silverstone with fast corners.

[The Black Knight]

That was Monaco. Lets see in Canada, only then will we see how their tyres last on a more normal circuit. Maybe even Silverstone with fast corners.

More Silverstone really but I doubt the "test" was of any use to them in gathering any useful info. From the sounds of it they were given the go ahead from the FIA. I agree with Ross Brawn, it's not up to Mercedes to communicate the test with other teams, it's up to Pirelli or the FIA to do it after they have given the go ahead to Pirelli and Mercedes to do the test. I can't see what Mercedes have done wrong here. The fault lies elsewhere as far as I can see thus far.

[SGWilko]

Sums it up nicely for me;

Pirelli & Mercedes development test leads to F1 Hysteria & FIA headless chicken impersonations | thejudge13 (http://thejudge13.com/2013/05/27/pirelli-mercedes-development-test-leads-to-f1-hysteria-fia-headless-chicken-impersonations/)

The interpretation seems to be the ambiguity of the wording in respect to Pirelli conducting the test, Mercedes merely supplying the car and driver[s].

FIA - more grey area's than a wet weekend in Scarborough.........

[SGWilko]

More Silverstone really but I doubt the "test" was of any use to them in gathering any useful info. From the sounds of it they were given the go ahead from the FIA. I agree with Ross Brawn, it's not up to Mercedes to communicate the test with other teams, it's up to Pirelli or the FIA to do it after they have given the go ahead to Pirelli and Mercedes to do the test. I can't see what Mercedes have done wrong here. The fault lies elsewhere as far as I can see thus far.

Of course, as soon as Pirelli mention the test, the other teems will roll out their cheque books, and their lawyers will head to the WC's to hastily 'knock one out' knowing just how much more money the moron team owners are going to spend with them arguing about how many bars of chocolate are in a 4 bar Kit-Kat or similar banal arguments they will go down in history having!

[steveaki13]

More Silverstone really but I doubt the "test" was of any use to them in gathering any useful info. From the sounds of it they were given the go ahead from the FIA. I agree with Ross Brawn, it's not up to Mercedes to communicate the test with other teams, it's up to Pirelli or the FIA to do it after they have given the go ahead to Pirelli and Mercedes to do the test. I can't see what Mercedes have done wrong here. The fault lies elsewhere as far as I can see thus far.

Absolutely

If the FIA ask, Mercedes can say yes and assume Pirelli have asked via the correct procedures.

[AndyL]

From the sounds of it they were given the go ahead from the FIA. I agree with Ross Brawn, it's not up to Mercedes to communicate the test with other teams, it's up to Pirelli or the FIA to do it after they have given the go ahead to Pirelli and Mercedes to do the test.

It looks to me like Mercedes were, at the very least, negligent here. It's up to them to make sure they comply with the rules. The testing regulations apply to the teams, not to Pirelli. If a team has been given some conditional advice that a particular thing might not be in breach of the rules given this or that condition, then surely it would be very unwise for them to go ahead without making sure all the conditions are completely satisfied with no room for doubt.

You would think that, for example, they'd have wanted to agree in detail with the FIA how the test would be carried out so that it wasn't "undertaken" by them.

[steveaki13]

I still feel its more up to Pirelli to make sure they are not involving a team in illegal activity. All though Mercedes could have taken a sensible pill and checked

[CNR]

Q:why are we the only ones here ?
close the GATE no constructors points this year for Mercedes
Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus not asked about secret Pirelli F1 test - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107733)

the FIA having made it clear that permission for Mercedes to test its 2013 car was conditional on other outfits being offered the same opportunity by Pirelli, a number of top teams have said the chance to run a contemporary car was never mentioned to them.


Speaking about what Pirelli had offered, Horner said: "We never believed it complied with the regulations.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I've spent the best part of the day checking German, English and Russian publications and some things seem universally agreed on:

1. Pirelli sent out an Email to all teams in Apr. 2012 telling them that the rules allow 1.000km tire tests and if teams were interested they should contact Pirelli.

So far, so good. But that email, which is claimed to have been seen by autosport.com and Motorsport Total, does not mention the use of a current car. Checking against the regulations, every team lawyer worth his salary must come to the conclusion that these tests will have to be done with cars that are at least 2 seasons old. (2011 cars in 2013). So Pirelli satisfied the pre-requirement to offer the test to all teams, but didn't communicate their full intentions.

2. FOTA reacted to Pirelli email and advised teams that in-season tests are not permitted

Only days after the Pirelli EMail another one made the rounds. That one, again claimed to have been read by aforementioned publications, came from FOTA. They advised the teams that an in-season 1.000km test as offered by Pirelli would only be acceptable if the rules were amended after unanimous decision by all teams. Such decision was never taken, so the issue is pretty unambiguous - it's forbidden. full stop.

After Bahrain 2013 1.000 km tests were independently offered to Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull

This is where it gets messy. Pirelli obviously renewed the offer with tentative blessing from FIA, probably citing safety issues as the reason (delaminations). Whether this blessing was a gentlemen's agreement, exists in writing or is purely a product of Pirelli's imagination - your guess is as good as mine. Ferrari accepted the offer and, following the regulations, ran a test with a 2011 car and Pedro de la Rosa at the wheel in Bahrain. Red Bull declined the offer. Like Ferrari they assumed that a 2011 car had to be used and since the 2011 car relied heavily on the trick diffusor, any data gathered with it would have little relevance to their 2013 contender. This is my speculation as I severely doubt RB would have declined a 2013 test if it was legal.
Mercedes ran the test with their current cars driven by Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton from Wed. 15th to Friday 17th of May. This should explain, why the other teams didn't notice anything. Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone. But even if they left their stuff unpacked. It's not any other teams job to keep tabs on when Merc leaves, where for and when.
The real stinker here is, that the same renewed offer was not made to the likes of Lotus, Sauber etc. Pirelli is clearly playing favourites and that alone is every reason to not renew their contract. F1 has enough problems as it is - adding a corrupt supplier to that list isn't really what it needs.

Mercedes claims they didn't gain any advantage over their competitors
Yeah, sure Ross and pigs fly. If Mercedes didn't expect to gain anything from the test, why didn't they use a test and development driver, like Ferrari. They used their current car driven by their current drivers, who covered three whole GP distances on an actual race track partially on the tires that will be introduced in Canada. If nothing else, just the track time for the drivers is worth a lot already.
As far as information are available, there were no FIA scrutineers present, who made sure that Mercedes ran the cars in exactly the same specification as in the Spanish GP, so the chance is they tested some upcoming upgrades. One Italian journo claims they tested a modified rear suspension, but nobody else picked up on that so far, so it is probably just wild speculation by a Ferrari worshiper.

My conclusion
Pirelli did it again. They massively effed up F1 and put the FIA into an impossible situation. They knowingly (and therefore deliberately) breached the rules and Mercedes went along with it. That might be acceptable business practice in some shadier neighbourhoods of Palermo, but not in a multi-million dollar business like F1.
What is FIA supposed to do? If they hand out harsh punishment, they'll alienate one of the two major works teams and one of the three big engine suppliers. If they let it go unpunished RB and Ferrari will go apeshyte. If they hand out a fine, Mateschitz will send a big wad of cash and RB goes in-season testing.
Pirelli's intentions are not that hard to read. They've complained very vocally lately about the lack of testing. When they didn't get what they wanted, they just took matters in their own hands. Well, newsflash Paul, if you want a new contract for 2014, blackmailing your negotiation partners ain't the way to get it. Quite frankly, after the ridiculous 2013 tyres and this latest episode, I've come to the conclusion that a renewal of Pirelli's contract would be catastrophic for F1.

[Knock-on]

You've taken selective information that's available DJ and jumped to conclusions that not only contain a strong bias but are also defamatory.

For your own sake, I suggest you tone down your 'crusade' against Pirelli before you land yourself in hot water.

[CNR]

Mercedes warned in 2012 there was no scope for F1 in-season testing - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107726)
Mercedes was warned last year that there was no scope in the Formula 1 regulations for any private in-season testing.As the Brackley-based team awaits news from the FIA (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107705)about whether or not its recent Pirelli tyre test is to be investigated further, it has emerged that an email clarifying the testing situation was sent in April last year.
Addressed to all the teams, the FIA and Pirelli and written by the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA), the email makes it clear that a tyre test can only take place if there is unanimous support among the teams

[henners88]

If the worst comes to the worst and Mercedes are excluded from the championship, it'll put a lot of people off including myself. I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent managing a simple test. Mercedes should have been more open with the FIA, Pirelli should have got the correct clearance for the test to go ahead and the FIA should have been more aware off their own backs. The test wasn't a secret, but the details regarding using this seasons car were not publicised in the correct manner. What a complete mess for three very professional organisations to get involved in even if no clear advantage was obtained. It shouldn't have taken place like this.

[SGWilko]

Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone.

That's quite a statement, do you have conclusive evidence of this?

[henners88]

Mercedes ran the test with their current cars driven by Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton from Wed. 15th to Friday 17th of May. This should explain, why the other teams didn't notice anything. Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone. But even if they left their stuff unpacked. It's not any other teams job to keep tabs on when Merc leaves, where for and when.
Like Wilko I would also be interested to see your source for this statement as this is not something you could have an opinion on, but must be something you know for a fact. Its a bold statement too and contradicts other claims. Can you offer a source please?

I know Ross Brawn is on record saying the team did not pack anything away after the Spanish GP. Whether he is lying I do not know but know for a fact he said this when spoken to before the race on Sunday.

You're right its not the other teams jobs to keep tabs on Mercedes but I can assure you they all do. They all employ photographers to attend tests and to get up close shots of each others cars and they also have people in the paddock effectively spying on each other. Its the way the sport has always been and the fact the test went ahead without anybody knowing is quite a mean feat. I am by no way defending Mercedes, I made that quite clear before.

[SGWilko]

I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent .

Well, take it as read for the FIA - if a mess is to be made, you can bet they'll do a 'proper job' right enough.

Mercedes knew exactly how the wording, as is the norm from the FIA, was greyer than a sunday afternoon in the John Major household.

Pirelli have already fulfilled their re-mit by offering a test to all the teams. If some cannot even be bothered to respond, why should they be asked again?

Red Bull said they knew nothing about the test with a current car, but in the same breath they said they turned down a test offer with a current car as they believed it would be against the regs. I mean, really, my kids tell yarns more convincing than that and neither of them is 10 years old yet!

There is a safety issue here, Red Bull have moaned the most (because they are not winningy enough) and have missed a trick. Ferrari are being a bit shouty, but more on a clarification level than a knickers in a twist temper tantrum.

All the other teams are keeping more or less schtum because they have their own vested interests.

PS - it's Tuesday today, but I bet the teams collectively would be unable to agree with that unless they spent gazillions analizing the calendar (Pirelli calendar, no doubt) ;)

[SGWilko]

why didn't they use a test and development driver, like Ferrari.

Driving style, that's why. Cast your mind back a few years to the tyre failures Lewis suffered in Turkey on the Bridgestones. IIRC, only he had an issue severe enough to cause the tyre to fail.

Now, bring yourself back to present day, and the two cars thus far that have suffered the most on the Pirelli's (failure wise that is) has been Merc (specifically Lewis) and Ferrari (Massa).

And looky here, as if by magic, in an attempt on the grounds of safety, which two teams have thus far been asked to assist sort this out......

Ummmm errrrr.

If Pirelli thought that by pounding around in a 2010 Renault pedaled by an F1 cast off, they'd still be doing it. But it has about as much relevence to 2013 cars as my last toilet movement........

[SGWilko]

If the worst comes to the worst and Mercedes are excluded from the championship, it'll put a lot of people off including myself. I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent managing a simple test. Mercedes should have been more open with the FIA, Pirelli should have got the correct clearance for the test to go ahead and the FIA should have been more aware off their own backs. The test wasn't a secret, but the details regarding using this seasons car were not publicised in the correct manner. What a complete mess for three very professional organisations to get involved in even if no clear advantage was obtained. It shouldn't have taken place like this.

They won't be. There is too much at stake here;

The F1 float - will be buggered more so than it is now if Merc pull out.
Credibility - F1 needs the big manufacturers in order to showcase its relevance to 'green issues, and hybrids etc.
Morons - The FIA backtracking, yet again, on their own advice will undermine the organisation even more.
Tyres - If Pirelli pull out then F1 is buggered anyway. A new supplier will come in, but with a proven track record on an inability to agree testing, how will they prepare suitable tyres exactly in such a short notice period.

No siree - the FIA has made their bed, now they need to sleep in it......

[dj_bytedisaster]

Pirelli have already fulfilled their re-mit by offering a test to all the teams. If some cannot even be bothered to respond, why should they be asked again?


Not quite. The Email in parts was published in at least two publications available online (Motorsport Total, Autosport.com) and there is no indication given that the current car was meant to be run, so after a look into the regs, everyone will have come to the conclusion that the test is to be run with a car at least two years old. And that was over a year ago, too. And on top of that it was immediately followed up by an email from FOTA saying that such tests in-season are verboten. Not too difficult to see why most smaller teams didn't react, especially since the email asked for getting in contact with Pirelli if the team is interested. That to me implies not to react if you're not interested. Most smaller teams simply cannot afford to pull an old car out of mothballs ans cough up the money for a three day test, especially if they cannot expect to gain anything from it due to the car's age.
As I understand, the Merc test was the result of a renewed offer made this year and that offer was not made to all teams. At least Sauber, Lotus and Force India say so.

[SGWilko]

Not quite. The Email in parts was published in at least two publications available online (Motorsport Total, Autosport.com) and there is no indication given that the current car was meant to be run, so after a look into the regs, everyone will have come to the conclusion that the test is to be run with a car at least two years old. And that was over a year ago, too. And on top of that it was immediately followed up by an email from FOTA saying that such tests in-season are verboten. Not too difficult to see why most smaller teams didn't react, especially since the email asked for getting in contact with Pirelli if the team is interested. That to me implies not to react if you're not interested. Most smaller teams simply cannot afford to pull an old car out of mothballs ans cough up the money for a three day test, especially if they cannot expect to gain anything from it due to the car's age.
As I understand, the Merc test was the result of a renewed offer made this year and that offer was not made to all teams. At least Sauber, Lotus and Force India say so.

Fair enough. But if you are offered to test, and it is NOT stipulated which car to use, and you still can't be bothered to respond, do you have the right to throw your toys out the pram when you don't get asked again?

The teams don't test development parts on an old car - it's pointless. So where does it follow that testing current tyres on an old car is acceptable? It isn't, it's just that the overpaid oiks running the show cannot agree on anything.

[henners88]

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

[SGWilko]

I think what will come out of all this, are agreements made between Charlie Whiting and Pirelli, that the FIA are unable to justify making. They just don't have the money to spend on legal advice that the teams do.

So, they give out advice to Paul Hembrey and to Ross Brawn on the 1000KM's in a current car, but have not made a watertight case on how a suitable team is to be selected.

Someones nose will always get out of joint.

The FIA have put their foot it (or at least Charlie has, yet again) and now they are trying to pass the buck and making look like Pirelli and or Mercedes are in the wrong.

[SGWilko]

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

Of course they didn't - but isn't it a loverly idea. Paints pictures of devious Mercedes employees with thin mustachios!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

No, that's speculation on my part for a very simple reason. Mercedes claims they have left their kit standing right there in the paddock from sunday to friday - that's 5 days and nobody noticed anything? And I believe that Ferrari and Red Bull didn't know it, because they would have raised holy hell the moment they knew it. It's simply implausible that everyone packs up and Mercedes doesn't and nobody notices it.

What are the options at hand:

1. mercedes packed up like anyone else and came back on tuesday.
It's a plausible idea. Especially since I doubt they were using an engine and gearbox that count to the alotted contingent of the racing season, so it would make sense to retool the cars and come back.

2. They stayed
Put yourself in the shoes of RB or Ferrari. One of your competitors, that develops a nasty habit of locking out the front-row lately doesn't pack their stuff and looks like hanging out a bit longer. Would you seriously bugger off without leaving someone behind to look what they're doing? It's not their job, but I'm pretty sure Ferrari and RB would do exactly that and in the moment they would have spotted the W04, the excrement would have been launched on a collision course with the rotating air conditioning device.

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.

[SGWilko]

No, that's speculation on my part for a very simple reason. Mercedes claims they have left their kit standing right there in the paddock from sunday to friday - that's 5 days and nobody noticed anything? And I believe that Ferrari and Red Bull didn't know it, because they would have raised holy hell the moment they knew it. It's simply implausible that everyone packs up and Mercedes doesn't and nobody notices it.

What are the options at hand:

1. mercedes packed up like anyone else and came back on tuesday.
It's a plausible idea. Especially since I doubt they were using an engine and gearbox that count to the alotted contingent of the racing season, so it would make sense to retool the cars and come back.

2. They stayed
Put yourself in the shoes of RB or Ferrari. One of your competitors, that develops a nasty habit of locking out the front-row lately doesn't pack their stuff and looks like hanging out a bit longer. Would you seriously bugger off without leaving someone behind to look what they're doing? It's not their job, but I'm pretty sure Ferrari and RB would do exactly that and in the moment they would have spotted the W04, the excrement would have been launched on a collision course with the rotating air conditioning device.

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.

Is Ted Kravits Spanish team roundup available anywhere - he normally wanders round the paddock team by team, and that would show whether or not Merc were doing headless chickens or lazing around in their laderhosen......

[henners88]

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.
Do you think the other teams knew Mercedes were staying behind to test as outlined in the Pirelli letter but were unaware they were using a 2013 spec car? Perhaps its the smaller details that have got Ferrari and Red Bull in a twist rather than your suggestion Mercedes packed up and returned? We have to remember that even if Mercedes were staying behind to test, much of their equipment like Motorhomes, lorries, and race personnel would have packed up and gone home to Blighty, only leaving behind essentials for running a test car.

Your first mention of this gave the impression it was a fact rather than speculation I must add.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Do you think the other teams knew Mercedes were staying behind to test as outlined in the Pirelli letter but were unaware they were using a 2013 spec car? Perhaps its the smaller details that have got Ferrari and Red Bull in a twist rather than your suggestion Mercedes packed up and returned? We have to remember that even if Mercedes were staying behind to test, much of their equipment like Motorhomes, lorries, and race personnel would have packed up and gone home to Blighty, only leaving behind essentials for running a test car.

Your first mention of this gave the impression it was a fact rather than speculation I must add.

This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.
If they had played with open cards, the fact that they were running 2013 cars would have been known on May 15th not due to a slip-up in a drivers meeting 10 days later.

[henners88]

This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.
I agree with much of that but its too early to claim Mercedes are to blame for the rule break. Ferrari and Red Bull claim to have followed the rules but this could be to add pressure onto Merc in hindsight, speculation of course. This could run deeper than that for all we know. Why were no FIA representatives present when it has been proven the dates of the test were made clear to the governing body? Surely above members of other teams there should have been an official FIA person present. It all seems very strange and I'm sure we'll find out more when somebody writes a book.

[SGWilko]

This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.

Red Bull and others are merely do what my kids do;

"Dad, he pushed me"

"why did you push your sister, Son"?

"because she pushed me"!

"You never told me he pushed you"

"You didn't ask"


All the teams knew the rub, but they might get something out of this if they try the 'heartstrings and soppy eyes' trick.

So now, the FIA will have to investigate their own permission. Do they then take themselves outside and kick themselves in the head ten times if they find themselves in the wrong???????? :p

[AndyL]

My conclusion
Pirelli did it again. They massively effed up F1 and put the FIA into an impossible situation. They knowingly (and therefore deliberately) breached the rules and Mercedes went along with it.

That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

[SGWilko]

That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

[SGWilko]

That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

And, without everyone bound by a current Concorde agreement, is the FIA contract even valid in respect to the teams.????

It's a bigger mess that Mr Trebus' back yard! ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

SG, so you're implying that everyone knew what had happened and 10 teams in unison played a nice theatre for us at Monaco? Damn, not even I am that cynical and I don't believe it. Usually I don't give a rats arse about the drivel that falls out of Marko's skull, but in one respect he's got a point. No matter how loudly Merc claim the opposite - by running 3 GP distances with their current cars and their current drivers they gained a valuable know-how advantage, one that RB and Ferrari cannot claw back until Silverstone at the earliest, even if FIA retro-actively legalizes it. Wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to delay or even prevent this test? As it is now Merc will go to Canada as the only team to have already run the tweaked tires on their current car. That's a significant advantage.
Merc doesn't employ retards for engineers. Even with Pirelli not telling them, which tire is which. It would take them no more than half a day to work out, which are the modified 2013 tyres and which are the beta-versions for 2014.

[SGWilko]

SG, so you're implying that everyone knew what had happened and 10 teams in unison played a nice theatre for us at Monaco? Damn, not even I am that cynical and I don't believe it. Usually I don't give a rats arse about the drivel that falls out of Marko's skull, but in one respect he's got a point. No matter how loudly Merc claim the opposite - by running 3 GP distances with their current cars and their current drivers they gained a valuable know-how advantage, one that RB and Ferrari cannot claw back until Silverstone at the earliest, even if FIA retro-actively legalizes it. Wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to delay or even prevent this test? As it is now Merc will go to Canada as the only team to have already run the tweaked tires on their current car. That's a significant advantage.
Merc doesn't employ retards for engineers. Even with Pirelli not telling them, which tire is which. It would take them no more than half a day to work out, which are the modified 2013 tyres and which are the beta-versions for 2014.

10 teams have not complained......

[dj_bytedisaster]

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

FIA has sanctioned 1000km tests if and only if all teams are given the same opportunity to take part in the test. According to at least three teams that hasn't been the case in 2013. That qualifies as a huge honking breach of contract.

[dj_bytedisaster]

10 teams have not complained......

No, only five. Only two of those have been protesting, but Sauber said clearly that they'll support Ferrari's protest if something comes of it.

[SGWilko]

According to at least three teams .

Depends on what constitutes a breach? Pirelli clearly feel they have fulfilled their re-mit, and so do Mercedes.........

[SGWilko]

Sauber said clearly that they'll support Ferrari's protest if something comes of it.

Shock horror! Nice cheap v6's next year if they get their tongues in deep enough I reckon! :laugh:

[SGWilko]

As for this FOTA letter, not all teams are FOTA members, are they????

Sounds like cherrypicking by some teams to me......

[dj_bytedisaster]

Depends on what constitutes a breach? Pirelli clearly feel they have fulfilled their re-mit, and so do Mercedes.........

How can they feel they have fulfilled their re-mit? They sent out one email last year that was almost immediately rebuffed by FOTA. They've renewed the offer for 2013 citing a FIA permit that nobody has seen yet, but only to some teams. Some is not the same as all. And FIA already released a statement saying that the test should have been offered to all teams on the same conditions and they did not get any confirmation from Pirelli that this has been done. Doesn't look like full compliance to me.

[AndyL]

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

The cryptic communications between the teams and the FIA so often seem to end up causing a mess don't they. If they made all such communications public it would save a lot of grief.

I don't think it's really clear that the FIA did sanction this test. They say they told Pirelli and Mercedes that a tyre test "...could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team..." but that's not quite the same as sanctioning a specific test. Really it's just restating what the regs already say. So it still comes down to the question of whether Mercedes complied with the regulations.

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

Excellent point. How does one decide, who ran the test? The fact that Mercedes supplied its current racing drivers as opposed to - let's say a test driver like Ferrari did - makes it difficult to me to believe that Mercedes were complete bystanders in this test. Also, who supplies the engineers? And are it the same engineers that work on the cars during the races? IIRC Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?
The biggest problem imho is still Pirelli's role in this. They were the ones asking FIA to sanction this test and they were the ones told to offer the same to all other teams. The most you could ask of Merc is to ásk before the test if Pirelli had really done that and maybe wonder why all 10 other teams weren't there. So from my outside position it looks like a breach of contract by Pirelli and negligence by Mercedes.

[SGWilko]

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

That's how I see it. Here is the wording

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver

Pirelli request and conduct the test, Mercedes supply car and driver.

That's as black and white as it gets, due to the vagueness of the FIA wording!

[SGWilko]

Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?

Wouldn't that be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

They'd spend months letting him learn all the controls first.....

[dj_bytedisaster]

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver


Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wouldn't be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

[SGWilko]

Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

Perhaps JT should suggest Charlie Whiting should, from hence forth, stick a sock in it. But don't put it in writing, cos they'll f**k that up as well! ;)

[SGWilko]

James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

Yes, did you spot my sarcasm. The point being that you want someone who knows the cars and can pound round putting max stress on the tyres, not fumbling with unfamiliar controls. Then you need representative driving styles - you can't as Jaime Algesuarie or whoever to 'drive like Lewis' can you? Well, maybe the FIA think so........

[henners88]

From what I understand there are protocols in place where teams provide engineers for tests but certain things are deactivated, to put it simply, to stop the teams recording useful data to use for their own means. Mercedes would have no doubt provided engineers who know how to run the car, but whether they collected data is another matter. Its a bit like when teams are allowed to do promo days using a current car, but software used to collect feedback is disabled. If this is the case for Mercedes in this test, they can't be charged with full blown cheating as such if it can be proven they did not gain any advantage from the test.

[dj_bytedisaster]

henners, the additional track time for the drivers alone is already a big advantage. We're still early in the season having 3 additional GP distances (or 1.5 each) to further get comfortable in the car is already worth a lot, even if the engineers couldn't get a byte of data. And even in unrestricted testing a lot depends on driver feedback. Not everything can be determined by sensors.

Also, I didn't read anywhere that some FIA officials were there to supervise it. Do we take Mercedes' and Pirelli's word for it that they really didn't gather any data?

[henners88]

henners, the additional track time for the drivers alone is already a big advantage. We're still early in the season having 3 additional GP distances (or 1.5 each) to further get comfortable in the car is already worth a lot, even if the engineers couldn't get a byte of data. And even in unrestricted testing a lot depends on driver feedback. Not everything can be determined by sensors.
I agree for the drivers it is an advantage but its the technical advantage that the teams are more worried about. The whole thing was handled badly by Pirelli, Mercedes and the FIA. The pointing of fingers now is just damage limitation by everyone concerned. The governing body should have been aware of what was going on, Mercedes should have doubled checked everything was Ok to resume rather than just taking Charlie Whiting's word for it and Pirelli should have had the permissions in writing.



Also, I didn't read anywhere that some FIA officials were there to supervise it. Do we take Mercedes' and Pirelli's word for it that they really didn't gather any data?
I haven't read anywhere whether the FIA were present either. They should have been and if they can't believe Pirelli and Mercedes concerning data, they will have to prove otherwise. Punishments can't be issued on assumptions really.

[Bagwan]

Given that Merc won this one , it shows us , and hopefully the FIA , that testing is important .

Ambiguous wording will let Merc off the hook , but will force the FIA to schedule a 1000km test for all the teams .

They will all get the same chance to sort their cars , and Pirelli will see the current cars on their tires and have a chance to get real data .

Tough to reconcile the advantage Merc has taken , though , in terms of the championship .
Perhaps , while the other teams wait for their own tests , the Mercs could be demoted grid positions at each GP until the tests are done .
It is an awkward time though , as they leave for Canada .

[wedge]

Pirelli have alleged two other teams were offered testing but only two teams lodged the complaint: Ferrari & RBR.

AMuS have reported one of the teams to be RBR and the interweb has evidence of Ferrari conducting a secret tyre test after Bahrain

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tLgd-frgoPQ/UaNhMoy-SVI/AAAAAAAAGts/7HCpRNa8aRc/s1600/761441128.jpg

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't think the test made much difference for Monaco. Pretty much everyone, including Red Bull and Ferrari said that Merc was going to win that one anyway. It's the one track were you can run 6 seconds off pace to nurse tires and still be in relatively low danger of being overtaken and this is what happened. On full tanks both Rosberg and hamilton ran ridiculously slow. A Caterham driving the fastest lap in lap 6 was all you need to know about how Merc pulled it off. They could have done that without the test. Canada and Silverstone will tell the true story. If they suddenly leapfrogged RB in tire management there, too, some questions will be asked and you can bet on Horner and Marko throwing a tantrum of epic proportions.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Pirelli have alleged two other teams were offered testing but only two teams lodged the complaint: Ferrari & RBR.

AMuS have reported one of the teams to be RBR and the interweb has evidence of Ferrari conducting a secret tyre test after Bahrain


Ferrari ran a 2010 car and Pedro de la Rosa though, which is perfectly within the rules

[SGWilko]

Ferrari ran a 2010 car and Pedro de la Rosa though, which is perfectly within the rules

And about as much use as a chocolate teapot to 2013 tyre safety evaluation, let alone 2014.......

[dj_bytedisaster]

And about as much use as a chocolate teapot to 2013 tyre safety evaluation, let alone 2014.......

That's true, but it's still in the rules. German law also requires me to stop at a red light at 3am even if I'm in the only car on the road for miles in each direction. It's the rules and if they don't make sense there are ways to have them changed. Had the teams unanimously agreed to a rule change after the 2012 emails of Pirelli and the rebuttal from FOTA, we wouldn't have this discussion. Since they didn't, they have to abide to the rules, even if they are not making much sense in the circumstances.

[steveaki13]

That's quite a statement, do you have conclusive evidence of this?

If his statement is true, then Ross Brawn was a downright liar on Sky, because he stated while others packed away Mercedes didnt and other teams could see that and could have asked why they weren't. He said they hid nothing.

Now if that were a lie someone might have spotted that I feel

[dj_bytedisaster]

If his statement is true, then Ross Brawn was a downright liar on Sky, because he stated while others packed away Mercedes didnt and other teams could see that and could have asked why they weren't. He said they hid nothing.

Now if that were a lie someone might have spotted that I feel

What Ross Brawn wants us to believe is that Merc played with open cards, which I don't think they did. They probably packed away enough stuff still, since I doubt they left their huge-arse Motorhome standing for the whole week. Even the FIA said it was completely left in the dark about that test. How does one pull that off without at least some subterfuge? It's not like all FIA officials run off as soon as the flag drops. I simply don't buy Brawn's reasoning. Every farkin' straight-line test and show event is reported in the media and somehow Merc managed to keep a full-blown 3 day test a secret by being completely open with all other people? Who's supposed to buy that?

[SGWilko]

Had the teams unanimously agreed to a rule change

This is why Pirelli, the FIA, Mercedes and some other teams are all foaming at the mouth right now! They know something has to happen for Pirelli to give them what they need - safe tyres - but do you think unanimous agreement will ever be reached?

[SGWilko]

What Ross Brawn wants us to believe is that Merc played with open cards, which I don't think they did. They probably packed away enough stuff still, since I doubt they left their huge-arse Motorhome standing for the whole week. Even the FIA said it was completely left in the dark about that test. How does one pull that off without at least some subterfuge? It's not like all FIA officials run off as soon as the flag drops. I simply don't buy Brawn's reasoning. Every farkin' straight-line test and show event is reported in the media and somehow Merc managed to keep a full-blown 3 day test a secret by being completely open with all other people? Who's supposed to buy that?

Had Charlie Whiting told the rest of the FIA? The FIA lawyers were consulted, what about JT?

[henners88]

What Ross Brawn wants us to believe is that Merc played with open cards, which I don't think they did. They probably packed away enough stuff still, since I doubt they left their huge-arse Motorhome standing for the whole week. Even the FIA said it was completely left in the dark about that test.
That was a point I made earlier in this thread but I didn't feel it supported your speculation about returning after two days. Much of their pit equipment would have remained and its not unknown for teams to help each other load certain cargo. Cars are usually queued up in covered sheets and you'd think the teams would notice if a teams cars were missing. The motorhomes would have gone of course.

Perhaps its the smaller details that have got Ferrari and Red Bull in a twist rather than your suggestion Mercedes packed up and returned? We have to remember that even if Mercedes were staying behind to test, much of their equipment like Motorhomes, lorries, and race personnel would have packed up and gone home to Blighty, only leaving behind essentials for running a test car.


Even the FIA said it was completely left in the dark about that test.
Apart from FIA Formula One Race Director Mr Charlie Whiting of course. Its claimed he gave the Okay for the test to continue but the details about his contact with the rest of the FIA is stretchy. It would be the first time teams have approached Charlie for his opinion or guidance and then the governing body give a totally different set of guidelines afterwards. Often at the expense of a team losing out financially or by constructors points.

[CNR]

without any fia official there to oversee the test how do we know that they did not use engines outside the 8 allowed ?

[Koz]

Why do I have a feeling this is a favour Bernie called in for Mercedes?

[henners88]

Given that Merc won this one , it shows us , and hopefully the FIA , that testing is important .

Ambiguous wording will let Merc off the hook , but will force the FIA to schedule a 1000km test for all the teams .

They will all get the same chance to sort their cars , and Pirelli will see the current cars on their tires and have a chance to get real data .

Tough to reconcile the advantage Merc has taken , though , in terms of the championship .
Perhaps , while the other teams wait for their own tests , the Mercs could be demoted grid positions at each GP until the tests are done .
It is an awkward time though , as they leave for Canada .
If Merc simply did a tyre test, wouldn't allowing other teams to collect data in their own tests be somewhat of an advantage? Of course if that is a punishment then its different.

[zako85]

This new "tyregate" scandal underscores how stupid and ridiculous F1 has gotten with the current tires. I mean, if most teams do not understand how tires work and require additional testing after 5-6 GPs now, things have gotten really wrong. This is so ridiculous. Imagine if engine manufacturers were to ship mystery engines that no one understood how to use until they blow up in each car 5-6 times early in the season. This is why we need to bring back tire competition. Once tire manufacturers compete with each other, no one of them will dare to bring a mystery tire that no one understands how to use.

[SGWilko]

The problem lies in the fact that tyres are the single most important factor on an F1 car. Make the tyres as banal as possible, and the focus switches even more to aero.

[dj_bytedisaster]

The problem lies in the fact that tyres are the single most important factor on an F1 car. Make the tyres as banal as possible, and the focus switches even more to aero.

That's what was the case in most of F1's lifetime since the early 70s and F1 survived well. Can't remember ever seeing such farcical races in succession. Since China every grand prix has been worse than the one before.

[SGWilko]

Another nice viewpoint from JS

A curious turn of events | joeblogsf1 (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/a-curious-turn-of-events/)

Will we see Bibendum back in 2014? Tyres that are designed to improve economy float my boat!

[LaFerrari]

Regardless of who has done what surely the blame lies primarily with FIA for not being there in the first place? Investigations will prove no doubt to be controversial.

[ioan]

Regardless of who has done what surely the blame lies primarily with FIA for not being there in the first place? Investigations will prove no doubt to be controversial.

Rubbish. The FIA lays down the rules, they do not play detective just in case something like this happens:

have fun (http://blog.quotidiano.net/turrini/2013/05/30/cera-anche-schumi-al-test-pirelli-mercedes/)

And as we all know the secret didn't last long enough anyway and now Mercedes and a bit less Pirelli are in the cooking bowl!
I am just curious how this will be solved in the end. Apparently Bernie has had a hand in it, so I wonder if Todt will take this chance to hit him too.

[ioan]

Why do I have a feeling this is a favour Bernie called in for Mercedes?

Apparently Mercedes F1 is for sale and they BE is trying to make it more attractive to potential investors.

[Ranger]

...so I wonder if Todt will take this chance to hit him too.

Dream on!

[ioan]

Dream on!

The FIA is fighting to get back some of the power, and with it the income, that Max has sold to Bernie/FOM. I wouldn't underestimate the situation.

[Koz]

Apparently Mercedes F1 is for sale and they BE is trying to make it more attractive to potential investors.

Nope, this is a special favour for Mr Bodo Uebber, who recently join FOM.

I find the sale of Mercedes very, very unlikely. Seeing as they have just spent so much on Hamilton, and finally have a car capable of delivering a championship, they won't sell now and become Honda.

[CNR]

Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html)[quote]The Mercedes team has been ordered to face an investigation by the International Tribunal of motor racing’s ruling body into alleged illegal in-season testing with Pirelli tyres.

Read more: Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html#ixzz2VOVoa5qx[/quote)] [quote]the FIA said it had decided to "close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organised by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules".

Read more: Mercedes in dock over F1 tyre testing (http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorsport/mercedes-in-dock-over-f1-tyre-testing-20130606-2nrdo.html#ixzz2VOVtYIHR[/quote)]

[CNR]

lewis first year in a new team what is it ? spygate tyregate

[henners88]

To my knowledge he wasn't involved directly with Spygate, although he gave evidence at the time in defence of the team.

[markabilly]

on the other thread, I posted that in season testing makes all the difference for developing tires. Plus given the mandate to change the tires each year to make them less predictable, so that they will do what they are now doing....and the result is this tribunal crap to add to the spectacle that F1 has become :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Some interesting info being drip fed through Autosport from the tribunal......

[SGWilko]

Reprimands all round then, and Mercedes to miss the young driver test.

Good sense prevailed?

[The Black Knight]

Reprimands all round then, and Mercedes to miss the young driver test.

Good sense prevailed?

Personally, I feel that it hasn't. I don't believe Mercedes really got a true advantage from the Pirelli test. It doesn't make sense that they should lose out on three days of testing when they gained so little. Anyway, it is the way it is, but I think the whole thing was blown out of proportion.

The one thing that is clear to me from this though is that the teams and FIA need to standardize the communication paths that need to be taken for requests like this. If you want to test with Pirelli, and the standards are kept, then no one can complain. Clearly, Charlie Whiting is not the way to go right now, so where do the teams go? That needs to be clarified after this tribunal.

[Bruce D]

If they did anything to Mercedes they would have to have dragged Ferrari into it too so it would have gone on and on, and they risked losing face with Pirelli. The loser was the FIA in the end.

[SGWilko]

If they did anything to Mercedes they would have to have dragged Ferrari into it too so it would have gone on and on, and they risked losing face with Pirelli. The loser was the FIA in the end.

Not necessarily - the stage has been set now with a successful first outing of the tribunal process. The next reason for calling the tribunal - whatever that may be for - will be levied with an iron fist.

[wedge]

Reprimands all round then, and Mercedes to miss the young driver test.

Good sense prevailed?

In some ways yes and some ways no. A lesser team would probably have a stiffer sentence: I can't but help think of BAR/Honda's illegal ballast/fuel tank that was cleared by scrutineers but over-riddern by the FIA and ended up banned for 3 races in 2005 cf. McLaren blatantly cheating 2007 and only got fined shows how the FIA are at the mercy of market forces.

Nobody has come out good out of any of this and certainly not the FIA. "Lets speaks to Charlie" is far, far too informal and in the past other teams have been in trouble especially with racing incidents when Charlie's opinion is certainly isn't enough.

Either Charlie Whiting's role needs to be beefed as a Sporting Director, a Sporting Director/body or whatever you call it that has the power and authority to look into the regulations when called upon on a ad hoc basis, or perhaps ideally Charlie should be replaced as I have never been keen of some of Charlie's judgements in the past - trying to ban trick exhausts springs to mind.

[CaptainRaiden]

Mercedes banned from Young Drivers Test - GPUpdate.net (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/296281/mercedes-banned-from-young-drivers-test/)

Some punishment. Yes, loss of 3 days of testing, but this affects the unfortunate young drivers more than it does the team.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Mercedes banned from Young Drivers Test - GPUpdate.net (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/296281/mercedes-banned-from-young-drivers-test/)

Some punishment. Yes, loss of 3 days of testing, but this affects the unfortunate young drivers more than it does the team.

Not to mention that rain during the young drivers test is rather likely in which case all other teams lose vital track time and Merc retains their ill-gotten advantage. After all they ran with their regular drivers in best weather. The whole thing is a pure travesty and shows FIA's bigotry. If that had been Sauber or Williams, they'd have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

[SGWilko]

If that had been Sauber or Williams, they'd have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Really, why?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Really, why?

Because they couldn't threaten the tribunal with immediate withdrawal in case of an unfavourable verdict as Mercedes has done over the last two weeks.

[SGWilko]

Because they couldn't threaten the tribunal with immediate withdrawal in case of an unfavourable verdict as Mercedes has done over the last two weeks.

And pay the forfeits for breaking numerous engine contracts? You need to stop the reading the unclean web journo sites, and stick to reading factual ones.

[dj_bytedisaster]

And pay the forfeits for breaking numerous engine contracts? You need to stop the reading the unclean web journo sites, and stick to reading factual ones.

Mercedes has exit-clauses in their contracts. In fact they could withdraw immediately, because Bernard E is being prosecuted. They've threatened to use them several times since the whole testing fiasco was unearthed. Where I come from, that's called blackmail, but maybe it's just normal business practice these days and I'm just not up-to-date.

[SGWilko]

Mercedes has exit-clauses in their contracts. In fact they could withdraw immediately, because Bernard E is being prosecuted. They've threatened to use them several times since the whole testing fiasco was unearthed. Where I come from, that's called blackmail, but maybe it's just normal business practice these days and I'm just not up-to-date.

Exit clauses that cost them money. BCE being convicted has the potential to cause many in F1 embarrasement, and would be a legitimate reason to have no choice than to quit.

[wedge]

Really, why?

To set an example, hence my reference to BAR.

Merc threaten to leave, there are question marks over Pirelli's commitment and there's a rumour that we could get FIA supplied tyres because manufacturers have shown little desire to work in F1.

[Nem14]

And who can blame them fro not wanting to be a tire supplier. The politics of F1 has been absurd for years.

[SGWilko]

To set an example, hence my reference to BAR.

Merc threaten to leave, there are question marks over Pirelli's commitment and there's a rumour that we could get FIA supplied tyres because manufacturers have shown little desire to work in F1.

Yes, but in those days megalomaniac max was judge, jury and executioner......

[dj_bytedisaster]

This verdict is devastating for F1. For a team as important as Ferrari this is basically carte blanche. Commit any breach of rules you like, as long as you have the clout to threaten the tribunal with withdrawal.

[Knock-on]

Can you check the taps Mark? I think the Kool Aid tanks been leaking into the forum again :rolleyes:

[Mintexmemory]

This verdict is devastating for F1. For a team as important as Ferrari this is basically carte blanche. Commit any breach of rules you like, as long as you have the clout to threaten the tribunal with withdrawal.
Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose
Or as the Pet Shop Boys sang (Maranello theme song) 'I've been getting away with it all my life'

[dj_bytedisaster]

If I was Red Bull or Ferrari, I'd pack up my stuff and test the raw crap out of the cars till the cows come home. Then I'd do an innocent face and say I only acted in good faith because it was ok for Mercedes, too and then I'd send my people on vacation when the young drivers test was supposed to be conducted.

[wedge]

Yes, but in those days megalomaniac max was judge, jury and executioner......

You mean like McLaren only getting a fine yet still allowed to fight for WDC with illegal cars.

[SGWilko]

You mean like McLaren only getting a fine yet still allowed to fight for WDC with illegal cars.

Were they illegal?

[steveaki13]

I think they got away quite lightly, but in the end maybe sense prevailed

[vhatever]

What a farce. I'm beginning to wonder if this wasn't all some kind of publicity stunt. Every driver I've heard says they would've gained useful and significant information from such a test, and the test was clearly a breach of the rules. punishment? No sprinkles on your ice cream.

[steveaki13]

I am glad I try on the whole to be positive.

[steveaki13]

Its suprising to me that something more wasnt done, but I am not sure if the FIA really wanted to cause to many waves due to the nature of the team.

This might lead to Pirelli being eased out before too long though.

[henners88]

Its suprising to me that something more wasnt done, but I am not sure if the FIA really wanted to cause to many waves due to the nature of the team.

This might lead to Pirelli being eased out before too long though.
Like yourself I was surprised but I think it's best for the sport to deal with this quickly and move on IMO. I was expecting their constructors points to be docked at the very least.

[steveaki13]

That would have been a major step and not one they could take lightly. So i think its best from their point of view.

[wedge]

Were they illegal?

OK, OK, I may be wrong on that one but the point is was the punishment proportional to the crime?

[Nem14]

We now know the FIA is toothless when it comes to corporate miscreants, and no the punishment was not proportional to the crime.

Like most bureaucracies, they do little that makes rational sense.

[vhatever]

I think they got away quite lightly, but in the end maybe sense prevailed


What "sense" are you talking about? They blatantly cheated and gained an advantage. The punishment was nonexistent. Sense? none of it makes sense.

Liar merceds claims that it did the test in good faith. If it was in good faith why did they hide the upcomming test date from their own drivers? why was their test driver not the guy doing the test to begin with? why did they disguise their drivers with unmarked helmets? Why were people who tried to view the test taking place "escorted" from the area by security guards? This is like someone breaking into your home in the middle of the night wearing a ski mask, steals your drapes, and when caught later confronted in court they say they just wanted to dust the drapes.

[SGWilko]

why did they hide the upcomming [sic] test date from their own drivers?

How did Merceds [sic] drivers' know when to turn up then - happy little accident?

They asked permission, which was granted, not only by Whitebait, but by the FIA lawyers too. As it was a Pirelli test, it was up o Pirelli to notify all other teams.

Now, to balance the situation, Mercedes must miss a test, where they would have had a very good opportunity to work on solving their tyre overheating issues, as the test is with current Pirelli tyres.

[vhatever]

How did Merceds [sic] drivers' know when to turn up then - happy little accident?

They asked permission, which was granted, not only by Whitebait, but by the FIA lawyers too. As it was a Pirelli test, it was up o Pirelli to notify all other teams.

Now, to balance the situation, Mercedes must miss a test, where they would have had a very good opportunity to work on solving their tyre overheating issues, as the test is with current Pirelli tyres.

The drivers only found out about the test shortly before the test date , yet the test was planned for weeks prior. Lewis had to catch a plane back from the USA just to make it in time for the test. Of course they didn't want to risk themselves one of their drivers talking about the testing BEFORE it happened. So they waited until the last possible minute to minimize the risk.

The diea merceds is hard done in by the punishment or the teams are "equal" by that pathetic slap on the wrist is a joke not even dignifying anything more than a LOL.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Good grief, vhatever. You managed a post without insulting someone...

Do you have any fact that substantiate your claim that Lewis had to fly back from America? Where have you gotten the information from that the drivers were told only days prior? Is that your opinion or established fact?

[SGWilko]

The drivers only found out about the test shortly before the test date , yet the test was planned for weeks prior. Lewis had to catch a plane back from the USA just to make it in time for the test. Of course they didn't want to risk themselves one of their drivers talking about the testing BEFORE it happened. So they waited until the last possible minute to minimize the risk.

The diea merceds is hard done in by the punishment or the teams are "equal" by that pathetic slap on the wrist is a joke not even dignifying anything more than a LOL.

LOL

[AndyL]

Do you have any fact that substantiate your claim that Lewis had to fly back from America? Where have you gotten the information from that the drivers were told only days prior? Is that your opinion or established fact?

Hamilton did go to the US between the Spanish Grand Prix and the tyre test, but it was apparently for a sponsor event that had presumably been arranged long before, so it doesn't necessarily indicate he was unaware of the planned test when he made the trip.

The bit of controversy that did arise from it was the photo that he took in Orlando on the Tuesday and then tweeted on the Wednesday, after he'd returned to Spain.