Man Murdered in Woolwich

[henners88]

Some truly shocking footage on this evenings news regarding the brutal and cowardly murder in South East London this afternoon.


BBC News - Man dead in suspected Woolwich terror attack (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303)


Info unclear but being investigated as a potential terrorist incident. Unconfirmed whether the man was a soldier at this point but seems like he was attacked near Army barracks. Awful stuff, thoughts with the chaps family.

[SGWilko]

Aren't we a wonderful species?????

[Dave B]

Horrible incident.

Meanwhile there's a huge amount of supposition coming from people who should know better, and a lot of stirring by the very same people who are appealing for calm.

Now let me be clear before I go on: there is NO excuse and no justification for what happened on the streets of Woolwich today. However, it was entirely predictable that when the UK colludes so closely with the USA in illegal drone attacks which kill an order of magnitude more civilians than suspects, that we would open ourselves up to revenge attacks. That does not make it right - two wrongs never do.

[henners88]

The ironic thing is one of the murders spoke to a member of the public and was filmed justifying his actions by comparing it to the deaths in his country. If he was any sort of man he would have been fighting in his country rather than targeting an innocent man on the street in the UK IMO. Thank goodness they didn't take more people out and hopefully they will recover to face their judgement.

[Dave B]

If he was any sort of man he would have been fighting in his country rather than targeting an innocent man on the street in the UK IMO.
A devil's advocate might argue that he was more of a man than someone who operates a drone by remote control from another continent...

[SGWilko]

A devil's advocate might argue that he was more of a man than someone who operates a drone by remote control from another continent...

An enemy that uses civilians for cover has no right of complaint in my opinion. This current technologically fought war is borne out of necessity when the enemy is invisible.....

But I agree that two wrongs don't make a right

[henners88]

A devil's advocate might argue that he was more of a man than someone who operates a drone by remote control from another continent...
I hadn't associated this attack with the drones, but news is sketchy at the moment.

[anthonyvop]

A devil's advocate might argue that he was more of a man than someone who operates a drone by remote control from another continent...

Here is your "man"

EROXP8JDG9M

If you ask me neither him nor you are deserving of the tittle.

[henners88]

An enemy that uses civilians for cover has no right of complaint in my opinion. This current technologically fought war is borne out of necessity when the enemy is invisible.....

But I agree that two wrongs don't make a right
Quite. Guerrilla warfare unfortunately invites casualties. Fighting an enemy who blend in to civilians and will happily take cover in schools and hospitals knowing we are not allowed to fire on them is difficult. Killing innocent civilians in any country is unacceptable and we can only hope our forces don't do it on purpose just to make a point.

[BDunnell]

If you ask me neither him nor you are deserving of the tittle.

Is that you comparing someone in this thread with an allegedly brutal murderer? Looks like it to me.

[BDunnell]

Killing innocent civilians in any country is unacceptable and we can only hope our forces don't do it on purpose just to make a point.

Indeed. But, technically, if the Woolwich victim was a soldier as has been suggested, he is not a civilian even though he was not in uniform or on duty at the time of the incident.

[SGWilko]

Indeed. But, technically, if the Woolwich victim was a soldier as has been suggested, he is not a civilian even though he was not in uniform or on duty at the time of the incident.

But he was likely to be unarmed - which makes any attack of this brutality all the more cowardly.

[anthonyvop]

Is that you comparing someone in this thread with an allegedly brutal murderer? Looks like it to me.

I am comparing the two for their lack of honor and not knowing what a real man is.

[henners88]

I agree, when soldiers are unarmed and in civilian clothing, they are not posing a threat to anybody. They are also citizens of this country and employed by our government so should be able to walk down the street without a sub human coward taking their life IMHO.

[SGWilko]

I am comparing the two for their lack of honor and not knowing what a real man is.

And what has Dave B posted exactly that can be deemed lacking honour?

[slorydn1]

I've had to delete 4 posts already. Lets try to not get this thread locked, too, shall we?

[BDunnell]

But he was likely to be unarmed - which makes any attack of this brutality all the more cowardly.

Of course, hence my use of the word 'technically'.

[BDunnell]

I've had to delete 4 posts already. Lets try to not get this thread locked, too, shall we?

I agree. But I would point out that at least one of those deleted was simply making the point that another post was unacceptable, a comment with which there was clearly agreement. Anyway, back on topic.

[BDunnell]

I agree, when soldiers are unarmed and in civilian clothing, they are not posing a threat to anybody. They are also citizens of this country and employed by our government so should be able to walk down the street without a sub human coward taking their life IMHO.

One might say the same of any civilian casualty in war.

[anthonyvop]

I've had to delete 4 posts already. Lets try to not get this thread locked, too, shall we?


Don't bother. You obviously only want one opinion so I will just ignore this thread. Have fun telling each other how great you all are!

[BDunnell]

Don't bother. You obviously only want one opinion so I will just ignore this thread. Have fun telling each other how great you all are!

I can count several opinions in this thread.

[slorydn1]

Now for the topic at hand; my heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. I hope the authorities are able to get to the bottom of this soon. And SGWilko is right, we have become quite the species alright.....

[SGWilko]

Don't bother. You obviously only want one opinion so I will just ignore this thread. Have fun telling each other how great you all are!

Abide by the forum rules, and your opinion will be welcome, but likely not agreed with.

[SGWilko]

Now for the topic at hand; my heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. I hope the authorities are able to get to the bottom of this soon. And SGWilko is right, we have become quite the species alright.....

I do worry quite what a world my kids will live in when I am gone....

[slorydn1]

Don't bother. You obviously only want one opinion so I will just ignore this thread. Have fun telling each other how great you all are!

Since you will be ignoring the thread then I guess I shouldn't bother to tell you that actually I want many opinions-that's what makes a debate fun and well, a debate.

But what I don't want are posts that attack others-but I am wasting my time since you won't be reading this, anyway :p

[henners88]

Scary for passers-by too as you just don't expect to see someone butchering a human being in the middle of the street like that. Apparently people attempted to intervene too. Shame these guys couldn't have been dropped off into the Army barracks next door after the attack and they could have fancied their chances against a hundred or so angry squaddies.

*non serious thought process employed* :)

[SGWilko]

Shame these guys couldn't have been dropped off into the Army barracks next door after the attack and they could have fancied their chances against a hundred or so angry squaddies.

That's heading into 'two wrongs' territory. Justice needs to be served, not revenge.

[henners88]

That's heading into 'two wrongs' territory. Justice needs to be served, not revenge.
I know I wasn't being serious and suggesting mob law.

[BDunnell]

I do worry quite what a world my kids will live in when I am gone....

Well, I'm sure it will be one in which forms of terrorism exist, because this has always been the case and always will be. Notions that any form of terrorism can be 'defeated' by armed action are fanciful — we've been trying since 2001 and it hasn't worked. Nor will it ever.

[SGWilko]

One interesting side aspect to this incident is the amount of civilian video footage that is emerging from smartphones etc.

Does this mean that future attempts of terrorism will have to be much more 'covert' in order to avoid detection?

It wont prevent the attacks, but will greatly assist in tracking the suspects perhaps?

[BDunnell]

That's heading into 'two wrongs' territory. Justice needs to be served, not revenge.

Statements such as that make me regret deeply past disagreements with you.

Even bearing in mind henners' reply above, which is welcome, I do find this sort of attitude towards justice rather depressing. One hears it said that while we shouldn't introduce the death penalty, at least with the worst criminals there exists the likelihood that they will be attacked in prison. Then the same people are often to be found complaining that 'prison doesn't work'. Is it any wonder?

[BDunnell]

One interesting side aspect to this incident is the amount of civilian video footage that is emerging from smartphones etc.

Does this mean that future attempts of terrorism will have to be much more 'covert' in order to avoid detection?

It wont prevent the attacks, but will greatly assist in tracking the suspects perhaps?

There wouldn't appear to have been any desire in this instance to avoid detection. And, in terms of tracking suspects, levels of surveillance — not least of mobile devices — are already considerable. Yet some individuals will always slip through the net.

[SGWilko]

Statements such as that make me regret deeply past disagreements with you.

Even bearing in mind henners' reply above, which is welcome, I do find this sort of attitude towards justice rather depressing. One hears it said that while we shouldn't introduce the death penalty, at least with the worst criminals there exists the likelihood that they will be attacked in prison. Then the same people are often to be found complaining that 'prison doesn't work'. Is it any wonder?

If we agreed all the time it would be awfully dull.

It is a mad world, right enough.

[henners88]

One interesting side aspect to this incident is the amount of civilian video footage that is emerging from smartphones etc.

Does this mean that future attempts of terrorism will have to be much more 'covert' in order to avoid detection?

It wont prevent the attacks, but will greatly assist in tracking the suspects perhaps?
It could cause the opposite too as terrorists who are willing to give their lives know they will go out of this life being filmed and their actions made famous by members of the public filming them. The coward in this attack openly spoke to a guy filming on his smartphone in a sick form of interview and seemed very proud of what he had done. Terrible.

[Dave B]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook, I'm about to unfriend two "friends", one of whom wants Islam banned while the other believes this has been allowed to happen as "our country is run by bummers". :s

[SGWilko]

It could cause the opposite too as terrorists who are willing to give their lives know they will go out of this life being filmed and their actions made famous by members of the public filming them. The coward in this attack openly spoke to a guy filming on his smartphone in a sick form of interview and seemed very proud of what he had done. Terrible.

It is hard to know and understand what goes through the minds of 'fundamentalists' and 'extremists'.

But they certainly seemed to believe vehemently that their actions were justified.

Is it any different to wanting to perhaps take revenge against a drink driver who kills a member of your family?

Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning or justifying what has happened, just perhaps trying to understand the reasons for the attack.

[Dave B]

I do worry quite what a world my kids will live in when I am gone....
A world not wholly dissimilar to how it's been for the past few centuries: largely safe but with a tiny minority of criminals ignoring the general rules which bind society. The only difference is now your kids will hear about it on Twitter long before they read it in a newspaper or hear it from the town crier.

[SGWilko]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook, I'm about to unfriend two "friends", one of whom wants Islam banned while the other believes this has been allowed to happen as "our country is run by bummers". :s

Facebook - the tool to speak first then think a few days later!

[henners88]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook, I'm about to unfriend two "friends", one of whom wants Islam banned while the other believes this has been allowed to happen as "our country is run by bummers". :s
Oh god I haven't been on there yet today and no doubt I'll find some gems too lol. I have friends who are very knowledgeable when it comes to Arsenal, but fancy their hand at politics and foreign policy every now and then with hilarious effects.

[Starter]

One interesting side aspect to this incident is the amount of civilian video footage that is emerging from smartphones etc.

Does this mean that future attempts of terrorism will have to be much more 'covert' in order to avoid detection?

It wont prevent the attacks, but will greatly assist in tracking the suspects perhaps?
What it will do is assure more such incidents as those people want as much publicity as possible in order to unsettle the general public. It's for the publicity and not for "getting" one individual.

[BDunnell]

It is hard to know and understand what goes through the minds of 'fundamentalists' and 'extremists'.

But they certainly seemed to believe vehemently that their actions were justified.

Is it any different to wanting to perhaps take revenge against a drink driver who kills a member of your family?

Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning or justifying what has happened, just perhaps trying to understand the reasons for the attack.

Again, a very good point. Is the apparent delight shown by one of the alleged (he hasn't been tried, let alone convicted, let's not forget) terrorists at his actions any worse than any of the rejoicing that went on at the deaths of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden? I would argue that it's best not to rejoice at all at death.

[BDunnell]

What it will do is assure more such incidents as those people want as much publicity as possible in order to unsettle the general public.

Not trying to make a cheap point, but I assume you mean 'ensure'? If so, why would this be the case? I'm sure the general reaction, not least among many Muslims, would be one of horror.

[SGWilko]

the apparent delight shown by one of the alleged

I would suggest adrenalin played a part in his demeanour.

[BDunnell]

I would suggest adrenalin played a part in his demeanour.

Very possibly.

[markabilly]

This is another in a long series of cowardly scumbag attacks by Islamic zealots who attack innocent victims and lack the courage to stand up like men.


As suggested by knock on in another thread about some other criminal scumbag, they should be slowly dissolved in acid...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.

The sad thing about all of these whinning excuses offerred by the posters for the scum behavior like some of the posts below, is this sort of attitude what leads to this type of attacks. These excuses cheapen and deminish the loss of this person's life, as well as the loss of all the other innocent victims from this type of behavior.






. However, it was entirely predictable that when the UK colludes so closely with the USA in illegal drone attacks which kill an order of magnitude more civilians than suspects, that we would open ourselves up to revenge attacks. That does not make it right - two wrongs never do.


A devil's advocate might argue that he was more of a man than someone who operates a drone by remote control from another continent...




Indeed. But, technically, if the Woolwich victim was a soldier as has been suggested, he is not a civilian even though he was not in uniform or on duty at the time of the incident.








Again, a very good point. Is the apparent delight shown by one of the alleged (he hasn't been tried, let alone convicted, let's not forget) terrorists at his actions any worse than any of the rejoicing that went on at the deaths of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden? I would argue that it's best not to rejoice at all at death.

[markabilly]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook, I'm about to unfriend two "friends", one of whom wants Islam banned while the other believes this has been allowed to happen as "our country is run by bummers". :s

wow, that must really be scaring them. I bet they are like, oh wow, :eek: no please don't


This post, along with the others you have posted, sounds their comments bother you more than the attack for which you are so quick to make excuses for.

i :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

Scary for passers-by too as you just don't expect to see someone butchering a human being in the middle of the street like that. Apparently people attempted to intervene too. Shame these guys couldn't have been dropped off into the Army barracks next door after the attack and they could have fancied their chances against a hundred or so angry squaddies.

*non serious thought process employed* :)

For a brief moment, as I read this, I thought Henners is showing even more balls and backbone then I thought possible for him. :D :D

Then I read the last part and your later post, and I am sad to see that you so quickly lost the courage of your convictions and returned to the pack to follow the common theme of your fellow Brits when you were reminded by the others of well, let us make excuses and not be mean to these poor misunderstood scumbags...... :rolleyes:




PS, if your country ever decides to return to its former greatness, but can not find anyone willing to pull the trigger to send this scum off to their reward in Islamic heaven, let me know.

I am certain to be able to find some folks to put them out of your misery, so you and your beloved don't have to worry about them showing up and doing more damage.... :vader:


Oh well, in this case, those words of ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee, could not be more true.

[gadjo_dilo]

I agree, when soldiers are unarmed and in civilian clothing, they are not posing a threat to anybody. They are also citizens of this country and employed by our government so should be able to walk down the street without a sub human coward taking their life IMHO.

That's interesting. When an american marine who worked for USA embassy in Bucharest caused a terrible accident when he wasn't on duty, killing one of our famous musicians, the american authorities took care that the guy was sent immediately to USA without being interrogated by our authorities and having an alcoholemy test.
It was invoked the immunity of american soldiers. Although the guy wasn't in uniform and was coming from a bar with a woman who wasn't his wife....

[henners88]

That's interesting. When an american marine who worked for USA embassy in Bucharest caused a terrible accident when he wasn't on duty, killing one of our famous musicians, the american authorities took care that the guy was sent immediately to USA without being interrogated by our authorities and having an alcoholemy test.
It was invoked the immunity of american soldiers. Although the guy wasn't in uniform and was coming from a bar with a woman who wasn't his wife....
I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that all soldiers are complete angels and have never committed crimes away from their barracks throughout history? It wasn't too long ago two British soldiers murdered a tourist in Cyprus, but my point was on the whole soldiers off duty and walking around are normal people going about their business. Two of my close mates are in Afghanistan at the moment and when they are home, they are the same guys I went to school with and fun to be around. I didn't expect what I said before to be analysed quite so deeply.

[SGWilko]

This is another in a long series of cowardly scumbag attacks by Islamic zealots who attack innocent victims and lack the courage to stand up like men.


As suggested by knock on in another thread about some other criminal scumbag, they should be slowly dissolved in acid...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.

The sad thing about all of these whinning excuses offerred by the posters for the scum behavior like some of the posts below, is this sort of attitude what leads to this type of attacks. These excuses cheapen and deminish the loss of this person's life, as well as the loss of all the other innocent victims from this type of behavior.

By suggesting that your type of justice is almost revenge, do you not see that you give the impression of bringing yourself to the very level of those who carry out these attacks?

[gadjo_dilo]

I didn't expect what I said before to be analysed quite so deeply.
Wish I also could be so analytical with my work papers.....

[BDunnell]

By suggesting that your type of justice is almost revenge, do you not see that you give the impression of bringing yourself to the very level of those who carry out these attacks?

The impression given is also of someone who believes in a form of 'eye for an eye' justice as practiced in various Islamic countries. The irony of this is, shall we say, striking.

[BDunnell]

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that all soldiers are complete angels and have never committed crimes away from their barracks throughout history? It wasn't too long ago two British soldiers murdered a tourist in Cyprus, but my point was on the whole soldiers off duty and walking around are normal people going about their business. Two of my close mates are in Afghanistan at the moment and when they are home, they are the same guys I went to school with and fun to be around. I didn't expect what I said before to be analysed quite so deeply.

I think the point gadjo_dilo is making is that you can't pick and choose the circumstances in which a serving soldier is deemed to be a civilian.

[SGWilko]

The impression given is also of someone who believes in a form of 'eye for an eye' justice as practiced in various Islamic countries. The irony of this is, shall we say, striking.

Too many action movies may well have blurred someones reality methinks!

[gadjo_dilo]

I think the point gadjo_dilo is making is that you can't pick and choose the circumstances in which a serving soldier is deemed to be a civilian.

Matter of fact the case I mentioned left me with a bitter taste. My point was that soldiers of some certain states are more than ordinary soldiers.

[BDunnell]

Matter of fact the case I mentioned left me with a bitter taste. My point was that soldiers of some certain states are more than ordinary soldiers.

Not sure I quite grasp your meaning. I assumed you meant that if off-duty soldiers are to be singled out for special treatment in cases such as the one you outline — which I agree sounds, on the face of it, disgraceful — we shouldn't expect them not to be singled out by, for example, potential attackers.

[henners88]

Matter of fact the case I mentioned left me with a bitter taste. My point was that soldiers of some certain states are more than ordinary soldiers.
I wouldn't want the soldiers I know to be judged on the basis of what a few rogue's have done in the past. That is a very narrow minded way of looking at things in my view. You can't base a hatred/dislike of the entire US military because of the sickening act in your post IMO. You wouldn't want to be judged yourself by others because of crimes your countrymen have committed abroad would you?

[BDunnell]

I wouldn't want the soldiers I know to be judged on the basis of what a few rogue's have done in the past. That is a very narrow minded way of looking at things in my view. You can't base a hatred/dislike of the entire US military because of the sickening act in your post IMO. You wouldn't want to be judged yourself by others because of crimes your countrymen have committed abroad would you?

I don't think that's exactly what's being said, though, is it?

[gadjo_dilo]

I wouldn't want the soldiers I know to be judged on the basis of what a few rogue's have done in the past. That is a very narrow minded way of looking at things in my view. You can't base a hatred/dislike of the entire US military because of the sickening act in your post IMO. ?
Now wait a minute, I didn't say I hate or dislike the US army.....Not even that guy who caused an unhappy accident because it could have happened to any of us. The problem is the way it was hushed up and the reason behind it. Maybe I shouldn't remember that case but it was about soldiers being off duty.
More and more often you don't understand what I'm saying. I think it's time for me to attend some english courses. :devil:


You wouldn't want to be judged yourself by others because of crimes your countrymen have committed abroad would you?
To be honest at this very moment I simply don't care. It was annoying in the past but not anymore. Even if my countymen do good or bad things nobody care about us or our opinions anyway. :devil:

[BDunnell]

Now wait a minute, I didn't say I hate or dislike the US army.....Not even that guy who caused an unhappy accident because it could have happened to any of us. The problem is the way it was hushed up and the reason behind it. Maybe I shouldn't remember that case but it was about soldiers being off duty.
More and more often you don't understand what I'm saying. I think it's time for me to attend some english courses. :devil:

Well, it's clear to me now, at least.

[gadjo_dilo]

Well, it's clear to me now, at least.

What? That I should take english classes? :devil: :laugh:

[henners88]

I don't think that's exactly what's being said, though, is it?
Its not exactly clear what is being said is it? You've attempted to interpret and got it wrong so I'm asking questions to gadjo to find out myself

Now wait a minute, I didn't say I hate or dislike the US army.....Not even that guy who caused an unhappy accident because it could have happened to any of us. The problem is the way it was hushed up and the reason behind it. Maybe I shouldn't remember that case but it was about soldiers being off duty.
More and more often you don't understand what I'm saying. I think it's time for me to attend some english courses. :devil:
Right so your point was some soldiers get special privileges based on their job where normal civilians don't? For example they get special treatment in certain situations if crimes are committed. I agree that has been the case in the past for soldiers of all countries.


To be honest at this very moment I simply don't care. It was annoying in the past but not anymore. Even if my countymen do good or bad things nobody care about us or our opinions anyway. :devil:
You convey this a lot in your posts lately where you claim the rest of the world (or the Western Countries) is against you for reasons that aren't clear. I don't see the relevance of where we come from, as all our opinions are equally valid.

[BDunnell]

Its not exactly clear what is being said is it? You've attempted to interpret and got it wrong so I'm asking questions to gadjo to find out myself

True, but I now feel both interpretations are equally valid.

[gadjo_dilo]

Right so your point was some soldiers get special privileges based on their job where normal civilians don't?.
Uhhh....Some soldiers ( let's say american ) may break the law when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema as well as some soldiers ( let's say bulgarian ) when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema or as well as normal civilians when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema. However in the first situation the treatment is different.

If you ask me what is my point I swear I'll throw myself from the 6th floor.


You convey this a lot in your posts lately where you claim the rest of the world (or the Western Countries) is against you for reasons that aren't clear. .

Nah.... You've got it wrong.....Why do they bother to be "against" something so insignificant?.....They just ignore us or treat us in a patronizing way... :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Uhhh....Some soldiers ( let's say american ) may break the law when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema as well as some soldiers ( let's say bulgarian ) when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema or as well as normal civilians when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema. However in the first situation the treatment is different.

One thing to perhaps consider is the training given to armed forces, and whether this training can blur the lines between right and wrong - in their thought processes given said training - when in a civilian situation......

[Knock-on]

As suggested by knock on in another thread about some other criminal scumbag, they should be slowly dissolved in acid...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.

Whooooohhhhh there Cowboy. You've twisted my words 180 degrees there.

We were talking about the Death Penalty and I said that I would be quite happy with the thought of the scumbag that Murdered April Jones being dissolved in Acid and if I was her Father, I would swing for him. However, in reality, I have a problem with the death penalty because of the possibility of getting a decision wrong. Perhaps we should talk about the death penalty on the appropiate thread.

Back to the subject.

I have taken a bit of time to post on this subject. As Dave has said, I was dismayed at some of the posts on FB from normally well balanced people. I put a lot of this down to shock and horror at the personality of this Crime. I wont be 'unfriending' anyone because of their opinion and although I fundementally disagree with them, I accept they have a right to say it.

I also don't agree with those that offset this act against British Foreign Policy. If you feel so strongly about it, debate and protest about it. Everyone has a right to Free Speech in this Country. You can debate on a forum and organise Protests within the Law. You cannot run over and hack to death someone because of your convictions.

This was a crime. I don't care if these criminals claim it's in the name of Islam because it will have as much relevance to me as any retaliation by mindless white thugs claiming to be acting on behalf of Englishmen.

[Knock-on]

Uhhh....Some soldiers ( let's say american ) may break the law when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema as well as some soldiers ( let's say bulgarian ) when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema or as well as normal civilians when they're in their free time, when they wear jeans and T-shirts and come back home from a bar or from a cinema. However in the first situation the treatment is different.

If you ask me what is my point I swear I'll throw myself from the 6th floor.

What's your point :p

Seriously though, if a Service Person in a foreign Country is afforded special treatment to avoid due Criminal process then that's wrong. I appreciate that sometimes it must happen in Hostile countries but this doesn't seem the case from what you have said. However, without trying to cause insult, without the full facts, it's heresay. Suffice to say that these things can happen and are more likely with 'some' countries Military personnel. If it happen as you say then it ws obviously wrong.


Nah.... You've got it wrong.....Why do they bother to be "against" something so insignificant?.....They just ignore us or treat us in a patronizing way... :laugh:

I will disagree with you here. You do seem to have a chip on your shoulder some times. Why not lose it as you don't need it ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

What's your point :p


Farewellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.......... ..............................................

[Mintexmemory]

Farewellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.......... ..............................................

So sad, so young - hope she didn't land on an off-duty GI

[BDunnell]

One thing to perhaps consider is the training given to armed forces, and whether this training can blur the lines between right and wrong - in their thought processes given said training - when in a civilian situation......

This is perhaps a slight drift off-topic, but I agree that this might be worthy of consideration. Ever been out in Aldershot of a Friday or Saturday night? Any ideas that National Service would instil in the young a better sense of how to behave go straight out of the window.

[markabilly]

By suggesting that your type of justice is almost revenge, do you not see that you give the impression of bringing yourself to the very level of those who carry out these attacks?


The impression given is also of someone who believes in a form of 'eye for an eye' justice as practiced in various Islamic countries. The irony of this is, shall we say, striking.

You two twins are the ones who need English classes.

what I said was ...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.




It is no different than having the good sense to flush the toilet, and send the scum down the sewer.



It is really sad to see how some of you act, like trying to justify your weaknesses by making excuses for the scum's behavior

[markabilly]

Whooooohhhhh there Cowboy. You've twisted my words 180 degrees there.

We were talking about the Death Penalty and I said that I would be quite happy with the thought of the scumbag that Murdered April Jones being dissolved in Acid and if I was her Father, I would swing for him. However, in reality, I have a problem with the death penalty because of the possibility of getting a decision wrong. Perhaps we should talk about the death penalty on the appropiate thread.

Back to the subject.

I have taken a bit of time to post on this subject. As Dave has said, I was dismayed at some of the posts on FB from normally well balanced people. I put a lot of this down to shock and horror at the personality of this Crime. I wont be 'unfriending' anyone because of their opinion and although I fundementally disagree with them, I accept they have a right to say it.

I also don't agree with those that offset this act against British Foreign Policy. If you feel so strongly about it, debate and protest about it. Everyone has a right to Free Speech in this Country. You can debate on a forum and organise Protests within the Law. You cannot run over and hack to death someone because of your convictions.

This was a crime. I don't care if these criminals claim it's in the name of Islam because it will have as much relevance to me as any retaliation by mindless white thugs claiming to be acting on behalf of Englishmen.

I quoted you virtually verbatim.

Make up your mind. Choose to stand on your feet and take your chances or crawl on your knees like Dave and "unfriend" what few "friends" he has because they condemn scum instead of joining him in making excuses like those he has been making for the scumbags....

[SGWilko]

You two twins are the ones who need English classes.

what I said was ...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.




It is no different than having the good sense to flush the toilet, and send the scum down the sewer.



It is really sad to see how some of you act, like trying to justify your weaknesses by making excuses for the scum's behavior

I have a sister, if that helps, but no twin. I make no excuses for anyone and don't in any sense condone what happened, but I understand the rationale behind what happened, hence an earlier comparison in this thread to the drunk driver example......

[henners88]

I have 'friends' on my facebook right now sharing pictures from a group called 'Our England'. Just took a look and its filled with racial hate with much of the rants coming from people who don't appear to have put an awful lot of thought into why they hate Islam. They fail to grasp the concept of just how many Brits there are working abroad and don't apply the same 'stop stealing our jobs' mentality they do to people working here. Its not a case of people not condemning the scum who committed the terrible acts yesterday, its about approaching it with the mindset to understand the bigger picture and serve the correct type of justice. I haven't seen anybody support what happened yesterday and the vast majority of the people in Great Britain are deeply appalled by it.

[Rollo]

what I said was ...but justice would be served by a quick and speedy execution with a bullet to the brain.
It is no different than having the good sense to flush the toilet, and send the scum down the sewer.

In principle I might agree with you except that it'd create a martyr out of him; thus inspiring others. Even if he is as guilty as the day is long and very well might deserve it, you don't want to escalate the problem through the operation of the law.

[BDunnell]

Seriously though, if a Service Person in a foreign Country is afforded special treatment to avoid due Criminal process then that's wrong. I appreciate that sometimes it must happen in Hostile countries but this doesn't seem the case from what you have said. However, without trying to cause insult, without the full facts, it's heresay.

Indeed it is. Very fair point.

[henners88]

The problem with dealing out justice on the street by putting a 'bullet through the men's brains' is that we have a justice system here in the UK. The reasons this butchering happened yesterday were unclear immediately afterwards and executing people on the streets is thankfully not done here. We don't want Iranian type laws like that thank you very much. For all the police knew these murders were mentally ill and have the right to a fair trial where justice should be served. We've fought for a free society and we need to maintain it. Not make ourselves as worthless as the people who commit such cowardly acts. Plus I doubt many serving police officers wish to go to work and be ordered to execute civilians without knowing the full story.

[BDunnell]

I have 'friends' on my facebook right now sharing pictures from a group called 'Our England'. Just took a look and its filled with racial hate with much of the rants coming from people who don't appear to have put an awful lot of thought into why they hate Islam. They fail to grasp the concept of just how many Brits there are working abroad and don't apply the same 'stop stealing our jobs' mentality they do to people working here. Its not a case of people not condemning the scum who committed the terrible acts yesterday, its about approaching it with the mindset to understand the bigger picture and serve the correct type of justice. I haven't seen anybody support what happened yesterday and the vast majority of the people in Great Britain are deeply appalled by it.

Including Muslims.

Credit to David Cameron — not something I say often — for his comments today: BBC News - Woolwich attack: UK will never give in to terror - PM (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468)

Nothing earth-shattering, but reasoned and sensible in the face of all the rubbish being spouted from certain quarters.

[henners88]

Including Muslims.
Exactly, my point included muslims as they are also members of British society. The Muslim council of Great Britain has condemned this act as barbaric and cowardly too. Unfortunately its situations like this where the racists come out of the woodwork and tar every muslim with the same brush.

[gadjo_dilo]

You do seem to have a chip on your shoulder some times. Why not lose it as you don't need it ;)

Nice piece of expression although I hate I had to google for it.
I have a chip on my shoulder only when the chips are down.

[henners88]

Nice piece of expression although I hate I had to google for it.
I have a chip on my shoulder only when the chips are down.
I have a vision of Mccain oven chips all over the floor I don't know why?

[SGWilko]

I have a vision of Mccain oven chips all over the floor I don't know why?

You don't cut and fry your own chips? Blasphemer!!!!

[gadjo_dilo]

I have a vision of Mccain oven chips all over the floor I don't know why?

Such a waste is permitted only when I'm in the chips.

[Mintexmemory]

Nice piece of expression although I hate I had to google for it.
I have a chip on my shoulder only when the chips are down.

That's if you are a chip off the old block! Welcome back - does Lazarus know about your abilities to return from the dead?

[Mark]

Some of the stuff I've been reading on facebook is terrible. You realise that some of your 'friends' aren't really worth knowing.

[gadjo_dilo]

- does Lazarus know about your abilities to return from the dead?
Only Luis Lazarus, the master of investigations. :devil:

[Knock-on]

Exactly, my point included muslims as they are also members of British society. The Muslim council of Great Britain has condemned this act as barbaric and cowardly too. Unfortunately its situations like this where the racists come out of the woodwork and tar every muslim with the same brush.


This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly.

Our thoughts are with the victim and his family.

We understand the victim is a serving member of the Armed Forces. Muslims have long served in this country's Armed Forces, proudly and with honour.

This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonourable, and no cause justifies this murder. This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom.

We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail.


I think that all reasonable people will agree with this statement from the Muslim Council.

This crime has nothing do do with Muslims in this Country and apart from some very dissaffected, sick people, will be deplored by followers of Islam.

However, we will now get the racial backlash from the EDL and NF fanatics who will use this cowardly act to stir up hatred.

[mr nobody]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook, I'm about to unfriend two "friends", one of whom wants Islam banned while the other believes this has been allowed to happen as "our country is run by bummers". :s I am not one for generalizing a group of people into one category, but I can 100% understand your friends feelings on banning Islam. In the states, the terrorist attacks that have been carried out on the US have been based on the fanatical side of Islam. First WTC attack in 1993, the Second World Trade Center Attack, the Attack on the Pentagon, the Boston Marathon bombings, the bombing of the USS Cole, the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the beheadings in Buena Vista, NJ, and the Ft. Hood, TX massacre. These combined with other acts around the world have cast Islam in a very negative light all at the hands of Muslims that are on the radical side of Islam. People are getting tired of it and getting much more apprehensive about the Islam religion. It's only natural for people to want to suppress that which causes harm, death and terror on people. I am not saying they are right or wrong in their feelings for wanting to ban Islam. I simply state that I understand how one can feel that way.

[mr nobody]

By suggesting that your type of justice is almost revenge, do you not see that you give the impression of bringing yourself to the very level of those who carry out these attacks? Sometimes the only way to get through to people are to get down to their own level. It's called the Dirty Harry approach.

[Mark]

Through to which people? Some random people you've chosen to warrant punishment?

[SGWilko]

Sometimes the only way to get through to people are to get down to their own level. It's called the Dirty Harry approach.

Yes, but Dirty Harry isn't real...... Makes good telly, but that's about it.

[Dave B]

I am not one for generalizing a group of people into one category, but I can 100% understand your friends feelings on banning Islam. In the states, the terrorist attacks that have been carried out on the US have been based on the fanatical side of Islam.
And? Some awful deeds have been carried out in the name of Christianity, and most if not all religions have their share of idiots who choose to hide behind their holy text of choice. It's the condemnation of a whole group of people based on the actions of a tiny minority which frightens me more than any risk of a terror attack.

[Dave B]

Sometimes the only way to get through to people are to get down to their own level. It's called the Dirty Harry approach.
No, it's called the "eye for an eye" approach and it solves nothing except for leaving two people without eyes, breeds even more hate, and risks radicalising even more potential murders.

[henners88]

I love the fact EDF energy company #EDF have been trending on twitter since yesterday full of angry racists calling for all sorts of violence and revenge. The poor person in charge of their twitter page has been working overtime to inform tweeters that they do in fact mean the EDL which is the English defence League and not the dissociated French energy provider haha.

As the EDL famously said 'we want Britain to be back British!'... Bunch of morons :D

[mr nobody]

And? Some awful deeds have been carried out in the name of Christianity, and most if not all religions have their share of idiots who choose to hide behind their holy text of choice. It's the condemnation of a whole group of people based on the actions of a tiny minority which frightens me more than any risk of a terror attack. And you only took a small portion of what I said and focused on it. I said I am not one to generalizing a group of people into one category (you even quoted that part), that pretty much states my standing on it. Every religion and country have carried out awful deeds against their fellow man, I am not defending any of them. I simply stated my OPINION where I can see how and why one would feel that way against Islam and stated events to back that up.

[Mark]

Whereas EDF said "S'il vous plaît acheter notre électricité!"

[mr nobody]

Yes, but Dirty Harry isn't real...... Makes good telly, but that's about it. I didn't know that wasn't real. I've watched it for 30+ years and thought it was a documentary :rolleyes: . You'd be surprised at the number of cops that did and do use that approach to do their jobs, just sadly not enough of them. You combat crime in two ways: you eliminate those who commit crime or you intimidate with fear those who commit crime. Those are you two options, appeasement never works.

[SGWilko]

I didn't know that wasn't real. I've watched it for 30+ years and thought it was a documentary.

I could believe that

[mr nobody]

I could believe that Not surprised at all at that.

[henners88]

So it seems a couple of people here support a police state where officers are allowed to issue justice and punishments on the street eh? Very Judge Dread and also dangerously close to an era we fought hard to overcome. I say let people have their say and their right to protest, but leave the judgements down to the courts of the land. The police are there to bring situations to as peaceful an end as possible and to arrest criminals. We saw a job well done by the police yesterday. Two suspects apprehended alive and hopefully able to be tried in court. I don't think any of the passing public wanted to see men shot dead unless it was absolutely necessary. Police officers with the power of deciding life and death is a dangerous power IMHO.

[Alfa Fan]

I don't get all the fuss about how this doesn't have to do with Muslim's or Islam, when it's pretty clear that a) the perpetrators usually use Islam as the justification for their actions, and far more importantly b) Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It's right there in the very book. In plain Arabic, and as far as I'm aware there's little controversy about the translation or interpretation. Consider this; if any religious text had been written today, would they be allowed to gather support and followers? I think we all know the answer to that one.

I don't single out Islam as being the only bad religion, to greater or lesser extents they all are, but it is probably the worst, and certainly on a practical level it currently is.

[Starter]

What's your point :p

Seriously though, if a Service Person in a foreign Country is afforded special treatment to avoid due Criminal process then that's wrong. I appreciate that sometimes it must happen in Hostile countries but this doesn't seem the case from what you have said. However, without trying to cause insult, without the full facts, it's heresay. Suffice to say that these things can happen and are more likely with 'some' countries Military personnel. If it happen as you say then it ws obviously wrong.
First, I don't know the details of this incident. However if the person involved was part of the embassy security detail, than that person would be covered by diplomatic immunity. There have been any number of incidents where American troops, just on assignment in a country, have been turned over to local authorities for trial. The exception might be if the local environment was significantly hostile then they would be handled in the military justice system.

[henners88]

I don't get all the fuss about how this doesn't have to do with Muslim's or Islam, when it's pretty clear that a) the perpetrators usually use Islam as the justification for their actions, and far more importantly b) Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It's right there in the very book. In plain Arabic, and as far as I'm aware there's little controversy about the translation or interpretation. Consider this; if any religious text had been written today, would they be allowed to gather support and followers? I think we all know the answer to that one.
Is it possible that not every Muslim interprets an 'infidel' as meaning the same thing?

Have you read the entire Qur'an yourself or are you basing your opinion on that one potentially provocative line hence misinterpreting it much like the same muslim extremists you are discussing?

Muslim extremism is becoming a massive problem around the world, but there are many millions of peaceful believers who do not wish violence on people of other faiths and cultures. You can't punish an entire religious group for the sickening acts of the very few IMO. Something to think about at least.

[Starter]

No, it's called the "eye for an eye" approach and it solves nothing except for leaving two people without eyes, breeds even more hate, and risks radicalising even more potential murders.
There are people who have little regard for the rights of other people and are willing to do whatever satisfies themselves. That's a fact. (Though I can imagine you might say it's not true.)

How then do you dissuade those people from committing said acts? There is an old saying..."Justice delayed is justice denied". Please be specific on exactly how you would attempt to convince them to think twice before committing violent crimes.

[Starter]

Is it possible that not every Muslim interprets an 'infidel' as meaning the same thing?

Have you read the entire Qur'an yourself or are you basing your opinion on that one potentially provocative line hence misinterpreting it much like the same muslim extremists you are discussing?

Muslim extremism is becoming a massive problem around the world, but there are many millions of peaceful believers who do not wish violence on people of other faiths and cultures. You can't punish an entire religious group for the sickening acts of the very few IMO. Something to think about at least.
It would be nice if some of those peaceful believers would rise up in loud and prolonged opposition to the extremists. They run the very real long term risk of turning Islam into an outlaw religion, where the rest of the world feels it must be stamped out.

[schmenke]

...I don't single out Islam as being the only bad religion, to greater or lesser extents they all are, but it is probably the worst, and certainly on a practical level it currently is.

I don’t really know how to define the “worst” religion (consider Catholicism :s ), but I would go so far as saying Islam seems to be the least tolerant of others.

[SGWilko]

There are people who have little regard for the rights of other people and are willing to do whatever satisfies themselves. That's a fact. (Though I can imagine you might say it's not true.)

How then do you dissuade those people from committing said acts? There is an old saying..."Justice delayed is justice denied". Please be specific on exactly how you would attempt to convince them to think twice before committing violent crimes.

Ah, so what you are saying is 'wipe 'em all out in case they turn bad'?

Nice......

[Alfa Fan]

I don’t really know how to define the “worst” religion (consider Catholicism :s ), but I would go so far as saying Islam seems to be the least tolerant of others.

That was largely what I meant.

[BDunnell]

It would be nice if some of those peaceful believers would rise up in loud and prolonged opposition to the extremists. They run the very real long term risk of turning Islam into an outlaw religion, where the rest of the world feels it must be stamped out.

Why should they have to? Many Christians have committed appalling acts of violence and espouse some dreadful views, yet one doesn't see comments from the likes of you saying, 'I wish Christians would rise up in opposition to the extremists'. Most Muslims just want to get on with their lives in peace. They shouldn't be held in any way responsible for their fellow believers. Nor do they have any responsibility in relation to them.

[BDunnell]

I love the fact EDF energy company #EDF have been trending on twitter since yesterday full of angry racists calling for all sorts of violence and revenge. The poor person in charge of their twitter page has been working overtime to inform tweeters that they do in fact mean the EDL which is the English defence League and not the dissociated French energy provider haha.

As the EDL famously said 'we want Britain to be back British!'... Bunch of morons :D

Er... the tweets to EDF were all jokes.

[BDunnell]

There are people who have little regard for the rights of other people and are willing to do whatever satisfies themselves. That's a fact. (Though I can imagine you might say it's not true.)

How then do you dissuade those people from committing said acts? There is an old saying..."Justice delayed is justice denied". Please be specific on exactly how you would attempt to convince them to think twice before committing violent crimes.

This assumes that there is only one definition of 'justice'. Some people will always consider it not to have been done.

However, one way that has utterly failed to make anyone 'think twice before committing violent crimes', it appears, is the so-called 'war on terror' led by your own country. Sorry to say it, but the point needs making.

[BDunnell]

Some of the stuff I've been reading on facebook is terrible. You realise that some of your 'friends' aren't really worth knowing.

Luckily, none of the people whose updates I see have posted anything offensive.

[BDunnell]

I am not one for generalizing a group of people into one category, but I can 100% understand your friends feelings on banning Islam. In the states, the terrorist attacks that have been carried out on the US have been based on the fanatical side of Islam. First WTC attack in 1993, the Second World Trade Center Attack, the Attack on the Pentagon, the Boston Marathon bombings, the bombing of the USS Cole, the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the beheadings in Buena Vista, NJ, and the Ft. Hood, TX massacre. These combined with other acts around the world have cast Islam in a very negative light all at the hands of Muslims that are on the radical side of Islam. People are getting tired of it and getting much more apprehensive about the Islam religion. It's only natural for people to want to suppress that which causes harm, death and terror on people. I am not saying they are right or wrong in their feelings for wanting to ban Islam. I simply state that I understand how one can feel that way.

Ban Islam? How on earth would that ever work? The very notion is absurd, and only espoused by fools.

[Malbec]

I don't get all the fuss about how this doesn't have to do with Muslim's or Islam, when it's pretty clear that a) the perpetrators usually use Islam as the justification for their actions, and far more importantly b) Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It's right there in the very book. In plain Arabic, and as far as I'm aware there's little controversy about the translation or interpretation. Consider this; if any religious text had been written today, would they be allowed to gather support and followers? I think we all know the answer to that one.

You're right, that text is there clear as day.

What is also very clear is that part of the Quran is a transcript of a speech made to inspire Muslim soldiers on the eve of a battle in the infancy of the religion who were surrounded and outnumbered by their enemies severalfold.

Very few speeches made in such critical moments of any peoples' history are filled with love and tolerance. Churchill did not advocate welcoming the Nazis on British beaches with open arms and forgiveness, Henry the Fifth did not advocate a final charge into the breach to shower the French with hugs and kisses and likewise Mohammed did not implore his men to be tolerant of the enemies who surrounded them.

Context is everything, both critics and followers of the religion (or indeed most religions) forget this at their peril.

[Starter]

Ah, so what you are saying is 'wipe 'em all out in case they turn bad'?

Nice......
You know, when you intentionally misrepresent what someone says, that is the same thing as lying? You are well aware that is NOT what I said and there was nothing in my question indicating in any way that preemptive action was desirable.

[Alfa Fan]

What is also very clear is that part of the Quran is a transcript of a speech made to inspire Muslim soldiers on the eve of a battle in the infancy of the religion who were surrounded and outnumbered by their enemies severalfold.

A point that would thereby make a large part of the Koran irrelevant. I might be wrong, but the impression I get is that most Muslim's don't see Islam as a pick-and-mix religion.

[SGWilko]

You know, when you intentionally misrepresent what someone says, that is the same thing as lying? You are well aware that is NOT what I said and there was nothing in my question indicating in any way that preemptive action was desirable.

I asked a question - I even used a question mark to make that clear.

That is all.

[SGWilko]

A point that would thereby make a large part of the Koran irrelevant. I might be wrong, but the impression I get is that most Muslim's don't see Islam as a pick-and-mix religion.

All ancient religious text is, due to change over the ages, mostly irrelevant, isn't it?

[Malbec]

A point that would thereby make a large part of the Koran irrelevant. I might be wrong, but the impression I get is that most Muslim's don't see Islam as a pick-and-mix religion.

?

The Quran is effectively (IMO) a historical document that describes the birth of the Muslim religion and is made up of speeches and talks by Mohammed through this period. Some are made to crowds, others dictated to his transcriber.

Needless to say those speeches made just before important battles are exceedingly bloodthirsty while the tone changes a lot in chapters written during political dialogue with the surrounding communities.

If you read a good translation of the Quran the actual text will only be a small part of the book. The rest will be filled with historical references to give each section the context it deserves to be understood properly. The problem comes when both Muslims and non-Muslims alike who are not bothered with the context use the Quran as a guidebook to Islam. It was never designed to be a standalone book like the Bible or Torah is, hence the existence of the Haddith and the exortation throughout the Quran and other texts for individual Muslims to do lots of their own research to find out what Islam is about.

I have asked Muslims I know about the part you quoted and they told me that when they face a similar situation, ie fight or be wiped off the face of the earth along with their families then they will do as the Quran tells them to, but since this is not a situation they face or are ever likely to face they aren't bothered with it. I'm not a Muslim and I can tell you that if I was in a similar situation I would not need a holy book of any sort to tell me to fight to the death. Does that make me an extremist?

[BDunnell]

You know, when you intentionally misrepresent what someone says, that is the same thing as lying?

That's an extremely odd thing to say.

[henners88]

Er... the tweets to EDF were all jokes.
I suggest you look a bit harder for the ones that set it all off. The joke tweets are trending now of course but the funniest are the serious ones where people were tweeting not realising they were using the wrong hashtag.

[BDunnell]

I suggest you look a bit harder for the ones that set it all off. The joke tweets are trending now of course but the funniest are the serious ones where people were tweeting not realising they were using the wrong hashtag.

Wasn't aware of that. To be honest, I have little desire to look for any tweets relating to the EDL.

[henners88]

Wasn't aware of that. To be honest, I have little desire to look for any tweets relating to the EDL.
I don't blame you at all. Best they get as little interaction from observers or coverage as possible IMO.

[Starter]

I asked a question - I even used a question mark to make that clear.

That is all.
The use of a question mark does not negate the false implication. You know that of course.

[henners88]

There is a lot of talk here about blaming Islam for being the most intolerant religion etc, but the fact is these attacks are only ever carried out by a few extremists who don't really represent the vast majority of Muslims living across the world and there are millions of peaceful Muslims. If we look at this thread and the opinions shared, it seems that the most intolerant people towards Islam and those wishing instant violent punishments are mostly from one country in particular. Without risking this going into a silly debate judging ourselves, I wish to ask a few questions:

1. Is our media to blame for hatred on both sides?

2. Is it the way our governments stir up support to combat Terrorism but fail to distinguish between good and bad?

3. Is enough shown about the true cost of human life everywhere in the world including the conflicts we have got involved in?

4. Is too much publicity given to terrorists?

Now I know this thread is showing a very small demographic of people from many countries, but if some of us feel we can judge an entire religion on the basis of a few extremists, can we also do that from analysing international views here? We've had calls to ban a religion, issue executions in the street, try terrorists through the legal system, to name a few. There is something very wrong in the world and occasionally it comes to our streets, but how can we understand why it is happening?

[Starter]

1. Is our media to blame for hatred on both sides?
There may be a little of that.


2. Is it the way our governments stir up support to combat Terrorism but fail to distinguish between good and bad?
Can't say about over there. Here, when the government speaks of terrorism, religion is rarely mentioned.


3. Is enough shown about the true cost of human life everywhere in the world including the conflicts we have got involved in?
Human life is now, and always has been, a very cheap commodity in many parts of the world.


4. Is too much publicity given to terrorists?
IMO there can be no question about that. It plays right into their objectives and is aiding and abetting them.

[BDunnell]

If we look at this thread and the opinions shared, it seems that the most intolerant people towards Islam and those wishing instant violent punishments are mostly from one country in particular.

Thereby proving indirectly the point made by David Cameron earlier about the typical British reaction not being knee-jerk in nature.



1. Is our media to blame for hatred on both sides?

No. Only those who commit the acts in question can ever be blamed. However, sections of the media unquestionably are irresponsible in their approach to reporting, and commenting upon, matters relating to terrorism. Remember this? Richard Peppiatt's letter to Daily Star proprietor Richard Desmond | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full)

One also at present sees the media, including the BBC, giving an inordinate amount of airtime to UKIP and thereby legitimising a section of right-wing opinion that itself seeks further to demonise immigrants, Muslims and so forth and to prey on the fears of the less educated sections of the populace (figures relating to the demographics of UKIP support prove the latter point). This doesn't help.



2. Is it the way our governments stir up support to combat Terrorism but fail to distinguish between good and bad?

Not quite sure what you mean by this.



3. Is enough shown about the true cost of human life everywhere in the world including the conflicts we have got involved in?

Possibly not.



4. Is too much publicity given to terrorists?

No. I don't believe the media should be selective in its reporting of such events unless it's absolutely necessary.

[BDunnell]

IMO there can be no question about that. It plays right into their objectives and is aiding and abetting them.

In other words, you advocate restrictions on press freedom.

[henners88]

There may be a little of that.
I think there is an awful lot of that to be honest.


Can't say about over there. Here, when the government speaks of terrorism, religion is rarely mentioned.
I didn't ask a question about religion. I meant governments often stir up anger by referring to a war on terrorism and naming certain countries, and this in turn gives people the impression we are at war with the country rather than the evil element within. It's more an insinuation rather than referring directly to a group of people. Some countries appear less tolerant towards Islam than others but that may be because the terror attacks are given more publicity than the action being taken to combat it.

[BDunnell]

I didn't ask a question about religion. I meant governments often stir up anger by referring to a war on terrorism and naming certain countries, and this in turn gives people the impression we are at war with the country rather than the evil element within. It's more an insinuation rather than referring directly to a group of people. Some countries appear less tolerant towards Islam than others but that may be because the terror attacks are given more publicity than the action being taken to combat it.

Well, governments have undoubtedly been highly selective in their treatment of some countries compared to others. Saudi Arabia gets off extremely lightly.

[Malbec]

1. Is our media to blame for hatred on both sides?


While I agree with the above responses to this point I'd also like to point out that when it comes to extrapolating the behaviour of literally a handful of people to billions of Muslims we are failed by the limitations in our ability to perceive risk and probabilities accurately.

We have a tendency as a species to directly focus on examples of behaviour by a particular group that promote our pre-existing views on them and ignore evidence that doesn't fit. We have an astonishingly strong ability to blind ourselves to evidence that contradict our point of view or twist them to suit.

Therefore in this case if people perceive Muslims to be violent then they will remember events like yesterdays and ignore the behaviour of peaceful Muslims they may encounter directly or through the media. Alternatively if they believe Muslims to be peaceful they will classify yesterday's event as an aberration, the action of extremists and take faith in the behaviour of the vast majority of Muslims.

[schmenke]

.... Saudi Arabia gets off extremely lightly.

Due to obvious reasons :mark:

[BDunnell]

While I agree with the above responses to this point I'd also like to point out that when it comes to extrapolating the behaviour of literally a handful of people to billions of Muslims we are failed by the limitations in our ability to perceive risk and probabilities accurately.

Just as we are when assessing the risk of terrorism as a whole today.

[BDunnell]

Due to obvious reasons :mark:

Indeed. And, some might argue, reasons less obvious about which we know little.

[Malbec]

Just as we are when assessing the risk of terrorism as a whole today.

Indeed.

I'd be very interested for instance in finding out how many extra people died as a result of switching from the safest form of transport around (flying) to driving as a result of 9/11, or from taking up cycling rather than taking the bus or tube after 7/7.

[BDunnell]

Indeed.

I'd be very interested for instance in finding out how many extra people died as a result of switching from the safest form of transport around (flying) to driving as a result of 9/11, or from taking up cycling rather than taking the bus or tube after 7/7.

Basic statistics regarding fear of crime as against actual crime rates offer yet another example. In this and related examples, there is undoubtedly a great deal of complicity on the part of the media and politicians.

[Starter]

I didn't ask a question about religion. I meant governments often stir up anger by referring to a war on terrorism and naming certain countries, and this in turn gives people the impression we are at war with the country rather than the evil element within. It's more an insinuation rather than referring directly to a group of people. Some countries appear less tolerant towards Islam than others but that may be because the terror attacks are given more publicity than the action being taken to combat it.
Sorry, misunderstood your question. In the above case, yes, I agree with you.

[Dave B]

I don't get all the fuss about how this doesn't have to do with Muslim's or Islam, when it's pretty clear that a) the perpetrators usually use Islam as the justification for their actions, and far more importantly b) Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It's right there in the very book. In plain Arabic, and as far as I'm aware there's little controversy about the translation or interpretation. Consider this; if any religious text had been written today, would they be allowed to gather support and followers? I think we all know the answer to that one.

I don't single out Islam as being the only bad religion, to greater or lesser extents they all are, but it is probably the worst, and certainly on a practical level it currently is.
If we're not going to bother putting holy texts into context, then where should I report for my punishment for having a shave and a haircut at the weekend? After all, it's strictly forbidden in Leviticus... isn't it?

[BDunnell]

If we're not going to bother putting holy texts into context, then where should I report for my punishment for having a shave and a haircut at the weekend? After all, it's strictly forbidden in Leviticus... isn't it?

Ah, but Christians run fetes and bring-and-buy sales, whereas Muslims just do jihads. Haven't you realised this by now?

[Starter]

If we're not going to bother putting holy texts into context, then where should I report for my punishment for having a shave and a haircut at the weekend? After all, it's strictly forbidden in Leviticus... isn't it?
Putting historical texts, religious and otherwise, into their proper context with the modern world assumes a level of reasonableness, history and understanding which is not compatible with the vast majority of the world's population - islamic and other.

[BDunnell]

Putting historical texts, religious and otherwise, into their proper context with the modern world assumes a level of reasonableness, history and understanding which is not compatible with the vast majority of the world's population - islamic and other.

I would contend that many of them, from my admittedly limited study some years ago, have little context for the modern world beyond the allegorical.

[mr nobody]

Ban Islam? How on earth would that ever work? The very notion is absurd, and only espoused by fools. Not as absurd as you seemingly pinning on me the notion to ban it. If you look, I replied to a post that said someone's friend was wanting a ban on Islam, not me.

[Rollo]

Birmingham murder may have been racially motivated, say police | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police)
A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.
Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

Did Mr Cameron call a meeting of Cobra after this had happened? Of course not. An attack by a Muslim makes world headlines, yet an attack on a Muslim barely made it to page 16 of the Guardian.

I think that the biggest lesson than can and should be learned from this is the bravery of Ingrid Loyau-Kennett. She was armed not with a gun, nor a knife, nor a meat cleaver; only her own humanity.
She destroyed these murderers’ madness with one weapon they could never possess: reason.

[BDunnell]

Not as absurd as you seemingly pinning on me the notion to ban it. If you look, I replied to a post that said someone's friend was wanting a ban on Islam, not me.

Where in my post do I say that you want to ban it? I merely said that the notion was ridiculous.

[BDunnell]

Birmingham murder may have been racially motivated, say police | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police)
A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.
Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

Did Mr Cameron call a meeting of Cobra after this had happened? Of course not. An attack by a Muslim makes world headlines, yet an attack on a Muslim barely made it to page 16 of the Guardian.

Well, quite. I would say that Cobra seems to be convened at the drop of a hat nowadays — otherwise, the PM's response has been decidedly sensible and measured — but the point about coverage and the feeling of threat that results definitely holds.

[CaptainRaiden]

Drummer Lee Rigby gets killed by stupid extremists because of what they perceived he did or deemed to be responsible just by being in the army.

And as this snowballed, other extremists cowardly stabbed A 75 year old harmless man in the back for....well......just being Muslim.

As always, as it happens in these scenarios, only the innocent die, while the responsible sit in their comfy chairs and plot their next plan of attack.

F***ing sad really.

[ndegroot89]

I was shocked when I saw this...can't believe how bold they were to do this in the middle of the street in broad daylight. Is there any reason why all those people just stood there while he gave that interview; just scared? He's lucky I wasn't there.

[mr nobody]

And stories like this one from Yahoo do little to smooth over the image Islam has in the world: Exiled cleric who taught UK knifeman praises 'courage' (http://news.yahoo.com/exiled-cleric-taught-uk-knifeman-praises-courage-112658347.html)

[markabilly]

While I agree with the above responses to this point I'd also like to point out that when it comes to extrapolating the behaviour of literally a handful of people to billions of Muslims we are failed by the limitations in our ability to perceive risk and probabilities accurately.

We have a tendency as a species to directly focus on examples of behaviour by a particular group that promote our pre-existing views on them and ignore evidence that doesn't fit. We have an astonishingly strong ability to blind ourselves to evidence that contradict our point of view or twist them to suit.

Therefore in this case if people perceive Muslims to be violent then they will remember events like yesterdays and ignore the behaviour of peaceful Muslims they may encounter directly or through the media. Alternatively if they believe Muslims to be peaceful they will classify yesterday's event as an aberration, the action of extremists and take faith in the behaviour of the vast majority of Muslims.

True to a point, but even you have demonstrated your own prejudices and perceptions and without it being obvious, or perhaps you failed to see it, in your own post

[markabilly]

I don't get all the fuss about how this doesn't have to do with Muslim's or Islam, when it's pretty clear that a) the perpetrators usually use Islam as the justification for their actions, and far more importantly b) Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It's right there in the very book. In plain Arabic, and as far as I'm aware there's little controversy about the translation or interpretation. Consider this; if any religious text had been written today, would they be allowed to gather support and followers? I think we all know the answer to that one.

I don't single out Islam as being the only bad religion, to greater or lesser extents they all are, but it is probably the worst, and certainly on a practical level it currently is.

oh, some time back, there was a long thread where people demonstrated an inability to read and understand the teachings of the "prophet" and what they really mean. Hatred and the killing of nonbelievers is not only tolerated but demanded by the faith as written in the Koran.

One need only consider that the prophet was a big practioner of pural marriage and even married a girl who was somewhere between 9 to 12 years old.....and there are far worse things to be found as part of the faith of Islam.

So aas far as the Koran is concerned, the murder was not only acceptable but a commendable act of faith.

But after all, the "vast majority of Moslems" are peaceful....so were the vast majority of members of the Nazi party in Germany

be blind and ignore it all you want, but there it is....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

oh, some time back, there was a long thread where people demonstrated an inability to read and understand the teachings of the "prophet" and what they really mean. Hatred and the killing of nonbelievers is not only tolerated but demanded by the faith as written in the Koran.

One need only consider that the prophet was a big practioner of pural marriage and even married a girl who was somewhere between 9 to 12 years old.....and there are far worse things to be found as part of the faith of Islam.

So aas far as the Koran is concerned, the murder was not only acceptable but a commendable act of faith.

But after all, the "vast majority of Moslems" are peaceful....so were the vast majority of members of the Nazi party in Germany

be blind and ignore it all you want, but there it is....

I bet the bible has passages that would support a similar act. But both the bible and the koran will have passages that also condem such violence. The real truth is that people will interpret their religious/political beliefs to support whatever suits them.

What has struck me as strange is the reaction to this knife crime. Not many people seem to be bothered that a muslim grandfather was stabbed to death last month, unrelated to the Woolwich attack in what is belived to racially motivated.

[Starter]

I bet the bible has passages that would support a similar act. But both the bible and the koran will have passages that also condem such violence. The real truth is that people will interpret their religious/political beliefs to support whatever suits them.
That is a certain truth. All of them just use (supposed) religion as an excuse to justify what they wanted to do anyway.


What has struck me as strange is the reaction to this knife crime. Not many people seem to be bothered that a muslim grandfather was stabbed to death last month, unrelated to the Woolwich attack in what is belived to racially motivated.
Which is worse, racial violence or religious violence? Does it matter?

[Roamy]

That is a certain truth. All of them just use (supposed) religion as an excuse to justify what they wanted to do anyway.


Which is worse, racial violence or religious violence? Does it matter?

probably not unless you are the stabee

[gadjo_dilo]

I don’t really know how to define the “worst” religion (consider Catholicism :s ), but I would go so far as saying Islam seems to be the least tolerant of others.

I might be wrong but in my opinion the Islam is repeating somehow the stages of Christianism. Taking into account that the Islam appeared in the 7th century I think we should remember how christians were about 700 years ago......

[Rudy Tamasz]

I might be wrong but in my opinion the Islam is repeating somehow the stages of Christianism. Taking into account that the Islam appeared in the 7th century I think we should remember how christians were about 700 years ago......

And how exactly did Christians behave 700 years ago, in 1313, that is?

[gadjo_dilo]

And how exactly did Christians behave 700 years ago, in 1313, that is?
Like muslims today? :confused:

Since I've said about 700 years ago, please don't take it as a certain target. I'm not good at history but as far as I remember in the 13 th century we had some crusades, then Inquisition was born.
On the following centuries (some ) christians even slaughtered each other ( if I have to mention only the night of St Bartholomew ) in the name of the cross.

I'm happy that othodoxes weren't such christians.

[henners88]

Christians are still killing each other in the United Kingdom its worth noting based on variants of their faith. That doesn't mean the religion itself is bad or everyone should be classified in the same context of course. Some of us have it a lot easier than others with such conflicts.

[Bezza]

RIP Drummer Lee Rigby - an innocent victim.

Some of the views expressed on here in light of this horrific attack are utterly shameful, your political agendas getting well in the way of having compassion for the people affected by this cowardly attack.

[Dave B]

RIP Drummer Lee Rigby - an innocent victim.

Some of the views expressed on here in light of this horrific attack are utterly shameful, your political agendas getting well in the way of having compassion for the people affected by this cowardly attack.
I don't recall reading anybody expressing anything but sympathy for the victim and his family, you'd have to be some sort of monster not to care that a human being died. However, that doesn't stop legitimate discussion of the circumstances surrounding to his death, whether that be foreign policy, religious or racial intolerance, mental illness, or just plain evil.

[Bezza]

You were very, very quick to start a political debate, Dave. In the circumstances I think that was ill-judged.

[SGWilko]

political .

That's what it's all about though, when you cut to the route cause of terrorism, is it not?

[Bezza]

That's what it's all about though, when you cut to the route cause of terrorism, is it not?

Politics? Religion?

Just excuses to behave in such a way if you ask me.

[SGWilko]

Politics? Religion?



Too closely entwined to seperate........

[Dave B]

You were very, very quick to start a political debate, Dave. In the circumstances I think that was ill-judged.
You're entitled to your opinion, personally I felt it entirely justifiable to question the circumstances in which Drummer Rigby died. That doesn't mean I don't care, it doesn't mean I found the crime anything other than horrific. I just don't see that a Diana-esque outpouring of grief for a stranger helps anybody or moves the situation along.

uppppppppppppppppp
Múi giá»

[BDunnell]

RIP Drummer Lee Rigby - an innocent victim.

Some of the views expressed on here in light of this horrific attack are utterly shameful, your political agendas getting well in the way of having compassion for the people affected by this cowardly attack.

Really? The fact that not everyone chooses to express some meaningless, impersonal grief towards the victim and his family in each post doesn't mean to say that those individuals lack compassion. I also think it's a shallow mind indeed that doesn't recognise that our wider actions as a country will reap consequences of one sort or another, whether or not that is the case here, or indeed that seeks to deny any sort of discussion as to such events. If you want to read nothing but comments along the lines of 'RIP A TRUE HERO', though probably not written that accurately, may I suggest the Mail Online or the EDL's Twitter account?

[BDunnell]

Too closely entwined to seperate........

Especially when considering issues relating to events such as this.

[BDunnell]

You're entitled to your opinion, personally I felt it entirely justifiable to question the circumstances in which Drummer Rigby died. That doesn't mean I don't care, it doesn't mean I found the crime anything other than horrific. I just don't see that a Diana-esque outpouring of grief for a stranger helps anybody or moves the situation along.

Exactly.

[airshifter]

I'm still up in the air as to if this should be considered a terrorist act. It's apparent that the target was not completely indiscriminate, and there was no attempt at multiple targets. As such I would view it more as a murder with political motivations and not a true "terrorist" action.

It's sad that any person loses a life over such things regardless.

[BDunnell]

I'm still up in the air as to if this should be considered a terrorist act. It's apparent that the target was not completely indiscriminate, and there was no attempt at multiple targets. As such I would view it more as a murder with political motivations and not a true "terrorist" action.

It's sad that any person loses a life over such things regardless.

I agree completely. The apparent beheading is, to my mind, the element which has caused a lot of people to class it as terrorism. Many have pointed out that in no way do we class as terrorism attacks against Muslims committed by, for example, English racists.

[D-Type]

"attacks against Muslims committed by, for example, English racists"
Some mixed thinking here:
If someone is attacked for being a Muslim it is not a racist attack. It is an attack based on religious bigotry.
If someone is attacked for being of a different colour to his attackers then it is a racist attack but his religion is not relevant.
The confusion arises because most Muslims are, to use the terminology of apartheid South Africa, "non-white"

[airshifter]

"attacks against Muslims committed by, for example, English racists"
Some mixed thinking here:
If someone is attacked for being a Muslim it is not a racist attack. It is an attack based on religious bigotry.
If someone is attacked for bheing of a different coulour to his attackers then it is a racist attack but his religion is not relevant.
The confusion arises because most Muslims are, to use the terminology of apartheid South Africa, "non-white"

But being that the majority of Muslim, as those of us in other countries think of them, are not white such an attack could be either racist or religion based. But in my example say a squaddie had attacked a Muslim and killed them due to the fact that Muslim influence has changed their country, which is predominantly other than Muslim. I wouldn't consider that a racist attack but an attack based on a person of a specific religion, in which case it is somewhat targeted and not a random act of terror.

[Roamy]

I'm still up in the air as to if this should be considered a terrorist act. It's apparent that the target was not completely indiscriminate, and there was no attempt at multiple targets. As such I would view it more as a murder with political motivations and not a true "terrorist" action.

It's sad that any person loses a life over such things regardless.

dude put down the kool aid

[airshifter]

dude put down the kool aid

Haven't had such influential Kool Aid in many, many years. The target was at least on some levels selected. To say otherwise is to say that the IRS (in the current scandals) didn't target any specific organizations, but all those harassed just happened to be conservative or tea party groups.

[Bezza]

I agree completely. The apparent beheading is, to my mind, the element which has caused a lot of people to class it as terrorism. Many have pointed out that in no way do we class as terrorism attacks against Muslims committed by, for example, English racists.

In the same way - groups of non-whites attacking whites are never, ever, classed as racist attacks. Other way round and the word "racist attack" is used immediately.

[Bezza]

Really? The fact that not everyone chooses to express some meaningless, impersonal grief towards the victim and his family in each post doesn't mean to say that those individuals lack compassion. I also think it's a shallow mind indeed that doesn't recognise that our wider actions as a country will reap consequences of one sort or another, whether or not that is the case here, or indeed that seeks to deny any sort of discussion as to such events. If you want to read nothing but comments along the lines of 'RIP A TRUE HERO', though probably not written that accurately, may I suggest the Mail Online or the EDL's Twitter account?

I do read Daily Mail online from time to time and sorry not a fan of Twitter so you won't find me on there.

I find it shoddy logic that justifies an innocent person being beheaded in the street by a couple of lunatics. As I've said, if they are of this ilk in mind then they will find a justification whatever it may be.

[Starter]

In the same way - groups of non-whites attacking whites are never, ever, classed as racist attacks. Other way round and the word "racist attack" is used immediately.
An unfortunate by product of fuzzy leftist thinking. Only whites can be evil racists. Or evil economic exploiters or evil just about anything else you can think of. At least in their eyes.

[BDunnell]

I do read Daily Mail online from time to time and sorry not a fan of Twitter so you won't find me on there.

I find it shoddy logic that justifies an innocent person being beheaded in the street by a couple of lunatics. As I've said, if they are of this ilk in mind then they will find a justification whatever it may be.

Nowhere in this thread will you find anyone justifying it; rather, you will find people discussing possible reasons behind it. I'm sorry that your right-wing commitment to free speech only goes so far, and that you are unable to draw a distinction between the two things.

[BDunnell]

In the same way - groups of non-whites attacking whites are never, ever, classed as racist attacks. Other way round and the word "racist attack" is used immediately.

'Never, ever'? Really? I'm sure some are, if sufficient proof of this being the motivation can be found. Can you prove that this is 'never, ever' the case?

[Bezza]

'Never, ever'? Really? I'm sure some are, if sufficient proof of this being the motivation can be found. Can you prove that this is 'never, ever' the case?

I don't recall ever seeing any incidents which were reported as racist. If you can find one, great, show me it.

[Spafranco]

It baffles me considerably that people from Mid -East that go to Britain( not all of course)to have a better life are so apt to resort to violent retaliation while making sure that they get their welfare checks and free housing and of course medical assistance the very countries they come from no matter what the religion fails to provide. Slaying the golden goose.

If there is a god in heaven I hope the young man savagely murdered is with him.

[D-Type]

We haven't had that much economic migration from Middle Eastern countries. More immigrants have come from the West Indies, India and Pakistan, Africa, and latterly from Eastern European former Warsaw Pact countries.

[Knock-on]

I agree with Bezza that predominatly racist crime is portrayed as white British against some other sector. However, we know that other racism occurs but doesn't get as much coverage.

[BDunnell]

I agree with Bezza that predominatly racist crime is portrayed as white British against some other sector.

It is, not least because I would assume that the majority of racist crime is that way round, as it were.

[henners88]

I remember at secondary school boys would be boys and fight at break times, often over which group got to the football pitch first and claimed it. I also remember on a few occasions Pakistani lads from years above or below would be in the mix. What annoyed many of us was if it went to the head of year, you'd be lined up and questioned and often accusations of racism were made against white students. It was a massive abuse of the system because racism was never even a factor until it came to trying to deflect the cause and evade punishment. I suppose my point is in many cases racism is reported, but not always the true cause. Unfortunately it means its not always taken seriously when it does happen, and people can be punished for it even when it doesn't. Its one of those very delicate subjects where its often easier just to support the accusation and defuse the situation, sadly.

[BDunnell]

I remember at secondary school boys would be boys and fight at break times, often over which group got to the football pitch first and claimed it. I also remember on a few occasions Pakistani lads from years above or below would be in the mix. What annoyed many of us was if it went to the head of year, you'd be lined up and questioned and often accusations of racism were made against white students. It was a massive abuse of the system because racism was never even a factor until it came to trying to deflect the cause and evade punishment. I suppose my point is in many cases racism is reported, but not always the true cause. Unfortunately it means its not always taken seriously when it does happen, and people can be punished for it even when it doesn't. Its one of those very delicate subjects where its often easier just to support the accusation and defuse the situation, sadly.

I'm not sure attitudes that, I believe, remain deeply entrenched within the police (in Britain at least) also mean that a lot of racist crime goes without properly being dealt with.

[Knock-on]

It is, not least because I would assume that the majority of racist crime is that way round, as it were.

And we all know what assumption is the mother of :)

I live in leafy Surrey and must admit that the only actual rascism I encounter these days is between Blacks, Asians and Eastern Europeans. I will also include religious hate in my defination of rascism for the purpose of this post. It is usually ignored by the Police as you say but mainly because if they make active attempts to address it, they are accused of rascism and the perception is that they are institutionally rascist.

This traditional perception of rascism i.e. Whites abusing non Whites is a little outdated. We still have good old fashioned rascists in this Country like the EDL but as we saw recently, for every EDL bigot that raises their vile head in protest, many more will protest against them. More importantly though is the growing tide of rascism and intollerance that people outside of what was considered tradittional rascism are committing. I don't think this is being addressed at all effectively.

[Dave B]

I remember at secondary school boys would be boys and fight at break times, often over which group got to the football pitch first and claimed it. I also remember on a few occasions Pakistani lads from years above or below would be in the mix. What annoyed many of us was if it went to the head of year, you'd be lined up and questioned and often accusations of racism were made against white students. It was a massive abuse of the system because racism was never even a factor until it came to trying to deflect the cause and evade punishment. I suppose my point is in many cases racism is reported, but not always the true cause. Unfortunately it means its not always taken seriously when it does happen, and people can be punished for it even when it doesn't. Its one of those very delicate subjects where its often easier just to support the accusation and defuse the situation, sadly.
Our secondary school had its fair share of scraps, and race was never an issue except for one guy who would always - without fail - play the race card. Everytime he was involved in a fight, everytime he was legitimately called out on his poor academic performance or his behaviour, he'd instantly produce his Ali G "is it because I is black?" routine and get away scot free as the teachers were petrified of being labelled racist.

He was a nobhead: not because of the colour of his skin, but because he was a nobhead.

[Spafranco]

I don't recall ever seeing any incidents which were reported as racist. If you can find one, great, show me it.

Quite possibly, if you take note of the attacks they do seem to trend in the direction of right wing groups. Would not you agree that the right and far right have more hate group that are easily identifiable? Hence, the difficulty in finding left wing groups to point the finger at.

[BDunnell]

Quite possibly, if you take note of the attacks they do seem to trend in the direction of right wing groups. Would not you agree that the right and far right have more hate group that are easily identifiable? Hence, the difficulty in finding left wing groups to point the finger at.

I don't think any racism could be classed as 'left-wing violence'. Anti-white racism isn't inherently 'left-wing'.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't think any racism could be classed as 'left-wing violence'. Anti-white racism isn't inherently 'left-wing'.

There's quite a bit of inverted racism among left-leaning whites who tend to blame many things on all other whites by association with white supremacists. They especially love doing it in retrospective, blaming modern day white people for what their ancestors allegedly had done.

[D-Type]

When Tony Bliar apologised to the people of the Southern USA and the West Indies for Britain's involvement in the slave trade, he neglected to apologise to the people of West Africa for destroying their economy and way of life by leading the abolition of the self-same slave trade. A case of misplaced idealism, perhaps ...