Massa vs Kimi?

[DimitraF1]

Are they going to fight tomorrow? we see that nobody will give a space to the other and this is the first time that ferrari let the drivers fight , now in the start for sure.
I think kimi have more fuel for the race, because they risk with not changing the engine,so if kimi is in the race and can complete it,he should be in front after the pitstops.If he have problems then massa will win. my opinion is that ferrari will give that little advantage to kimi if is necessary because kimi has won the 1st race,and in difficult situations ,like fight in the race he is proven better that massa.tomorrow maybe we know...maybe not!

[jens]

Massa's task is simple - he HAS TO beat Kimi tomorrow to keep his title hopes open! Sepang is one of Felipe's favourite circuits and if he can't beat the Finn here, then where else?

But Räikkönen can't also be underestimated in current situation. Interesting how can Alonso mix himself into the battle (if it turns out to be a battle) of Ferraris.

[DimitraF1]

Alonso in the battle? he will pit sooner that the 2 ferrari.Kimi MUST pass him as soon as possible

[F1boat]

The battle is unpredictable. I was stunned by Massa's pace.

[EuroTroll]

I was surprised as well, but also noticed that Kimi seemed to be relatively pleased with himself in the press conference. I'm also guessing he's significantly heavier than Massa.

[Garry Walker]

I was surprised as well, but also noticed that Kimi seemed to be relatively pleased with himself in the press conference. I'm also guessing he's significantly heavier than Massa.

To me Kimi seemed well shocked and dissapointed. I think he is just as heavy as Massa (one lap here/there). Massas beating of Kimi has started.

[Eki]

The battle is unpredictable. I was stunned by Massa's pace.
Massa is fast. We saw that already last year when he occasionally beat MS. I think the one who'll be more consistent this year will end up on top.

[Erki]

I'm also guessing he's significantly heavier than Massa.

Tattoo ink?

[EuroTroll]

Tattoo ink?

Also that. :)

[Ian McC]

To me Kimi seemed well shocked and dissapointed.

:rotflmao:

Kimi barely cracks a smile ever, and you think he looked shocked?! :rolleyes:

[jens]

Tattoo ink?

:laugh:

Now Kimi regrets that tattoo and tries to find a way how to get rid of it. :D

[ioan]

I was surprised as well, but also noticed that Kimi seemed to be relatively pleased with himself in the press conference. I'm also guessing he's significantly heavier than Massa.

Well he's taller too! :p :

Seriously, given his engine troubles at the end of Oz GP, I doubt that he would go for less pit stops than Felipe and also it seems that the track is pretty abrasive and a 2 stopper is the most likely for everyone.

[wedge]

To me Kimi seemed well shocked and dissapointed. I think he is just as heavy as Massa (one lap here/there). Massas beating of Kimi has started.

Still very difficult to tell at this stage. Kimi has admitted that he doesn't like the car over one lap compared to a race stint.

[Juppe]

To me Kimi seemed well shocked and dissapointed. I think he is just as heavy as Massa (one lap here/there). Massas beating of Kimi has started.


He didn't look shocked (that is yet to be seen), but he looked displeased.

However, he was unhappy with the car setup and still he run only 7 laps in Saturday practice. The reason is obvious - they try to save the engine as much as possible and the main target is to get Kimi to the finish.

If everything goes ok for Massa, he will win tomorrow, because he isn't going to get threath from Kimi, who'll try to save his engine.

The question is, can kimi beat Fernando and Lewis to the second place with reduced revs?

[jas123f1]

Are they going to fight tomorrow? we see that nobody will give a space to the other and this is the first time that ferrari let the drivers fight , now in the start for sure.
I think kimi have more fuel for the race, because they risk with not changing the engine,so if kimi is in the race and can complete it,he should be in front after the pitstops.If he have problems then massa will win. my opinion is that ferrari will give that little advantage to kimi if is necessary because kimi has won the 1st race,and in difficult situations ,like fight in the race he is proven better that massa.tomorrow maybe we know...maybe not!

I don't believe that there gives any advantage to any of them. It would be wrong and I don’t think that drivers would like to have it that way. It was nice to see how happy Massa was after his pole and Kimis composure. What he was thinking is impossible to even guess, but I must say he didn’t look too sad.
It will be an interesting start – Massa and Kimi on the clean side of the track and Alonso and Hamilton on the dirty side. I think Ferrari guys however have a little chance to take the double lead if they make a good start and not fight each other too much. :up:

[Tazio]

Well he's taller too! :p :

Seriously, given his engine troubles at the end of Oz GP, I doubt that he would go for less pit stops than Felipe and also it seems that the track is pretty abrasive and a 2 stopper is the most likely for everyone.
I don't think having less pit stops or just running a longer first stint is a negative factor for Kimi's engine! Every time you stop, the engine temp shoots way up! I think it's a wash in terms of exaserbating a heat issue! But if he qualified were he did with significantly more fuel than LH, FA, and FM. I'd say that puts him in pretty good shape. IMHO thats is the case!

[Shifter]

Didn't Ferrari turn down the wick on Kimi's engine? I thought he was down 30hp or so, perhaps not for quali?

[Juppe]

Didn't Ferrari turn down the wick on Kimi's engine? I thought he was down 30hp or so, perhaps not for quali?


That is hard to tell, at least beforehand. They will not tell their competitors, if Kimi will have downtuned engine or not. At least among Finnish media the rumour is strong that Kimi will have to nurse his engine to the flag. That is not a great way to start the race - at least not for the kind of guy Kimi is, who would like to challenge for victory.

I hope that they tell it afterwards, although I doubt it as well.

[Juppe]

To me Kimi seemed well shocked and dissapointed. I think he is just as heavy as Massa (one lap here/there). Massas beating of Kimi has started.

Massa proved to be erroneous in the race and lost his third place therefore - so we have to wait for the beating to start a little bit longer.

[F1boat]

Kimi is better than Massa. Massa was big trouble right form the start when he blocked Kimi and not Fred or Lewis. Kimi drove well, but with limited revs could not have matched McLaren. Massa probably ruined his car in the gravel, but his mistakes was far too many.

[jens]

Sad to say that, but I don't believe that Massa can become champion this year any more. Now it's up to Kimi to save the honour of the Reds' this year.

[F1boat]

I agree. Massa is as erratic as ever under pressure. I wonder how Garry could like him, as he is tha same as the driver, he loathes most, Montoya.

[Ian McC]

Despite everything Massa still has a tendancy to throw it all away, looks like he could do with taking lessons from Lewis ;)

[truefan72]

Personally I like Massa, but today's performace didn't win him any fans. He showed some immaturity and anxiety which probably cost him a podium spot.
I am not sure today was a step back, but it sure wasn't a step forward.
unfortunately, they don't give points for pole. :|

[Valve Bounce]

After watching him today, I must say that Massa hasn't really changed. He is fast, but he cannot race. I am sure that had Ferrari given the race drive to DC, DC would have done a better job today. And I am serious about this. Massa, as a racer, is just terrible.

[truefan72]

DC was no show stopper either when he was with the top teams. In fact his results were similar to Massa's with the completely opposite performace affect. Never really challenging, not being able to overtake, satisified to finish 2nd and not showing the killer instinct. Massa on the other hands desperately wants to prove his worth resulting in impatience and driver error.

now, if you put, Webber, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg, montoya and yes...even villeneuve in that seat, you would see somethin else. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

After watching him today, I must say that Massa hasn't really changed.
I agree completely. He has certainly appeared more confident this year, and is talking a good season, and yet the same old errors appear time and time again. Today he was completely out-foxed, and taught a lesson, by a rookie.
The most telling comments came in the press conference after the race: Lewis Hamilton:
"Felipe had a couple of moves but fortunately I was able to trick him to outbrake himself and get fortunate. I could cut across to the point he went off, so I apologise for that." :D :s mokin:

Massa might have been on pole, but the race clearly illustrated why he will be no match for Kimi over the whole of the season.

[jens]

Btw, besides all that Massa criticism we can find one positive aspect about him as well.

At least he tried and gave us some entertainment instead of just cruising behind someone, which is so common nowadays...

[F1boat]

Yes. If the cars can't overtake in Imola, it's OK, narrow track, strategy is most important there.
If they can't pass in Sepang...

[Donney]

Kimi looks much more focussed and intelligent when racing.

[Tazio]

Kimi looks much more focussed and intelligent when racing.Yes, I've seen enough! The fight for #1 at Ferrari is over! Massa will have his courses where he is the fastest. But, not nearly enough.

[Garry Walker]

Massa proved to be erroneous in the race and lost his third place therefore - so we have to wait for the beating to start a little bit longer.

Massa proved much faster than Kimi though. But yes, he stupidly ruined his own race. But fact is - he decimated Kimi in qualifying.

[Eki]

But fact is - he decimated Kimi in qualifying.
How many points did he win for that?

[Garry Walker]

How many points did he win for that?

None. But he was faster than Kimi.

[Juppe]

None. But he was faster than Kimi.

Yes he was, but that really counted for nothing in the end.

Besides, we do not know, how much Kimi's car was inferior to Massa's in qualifying. Now Kimi has beaten Massa twice in a row.

McLaren actually may have maken a favour to Kimi, because at this rate Ferrari cannot wait for too long in deciding, who is the main candidate for the championship. They cannot have the luxury of Felipe and Kimi taking points off each other, when Alonso theatens to escape.

Who do you think they will choose at this rate?

[Garry Walker]

Yes he was, but that really counted for nothing in the end.

Besides, we do not know, how much Kimi's car was inferior to Massa's in qualifying. Now Kimi has beaten Massa twice in a row.

McLaren actually may have maken a favour to Kimi, because at this rate Ferrari cannot wait for too long in deciding, who is the main candidate for the championship. They cannot have the luxury of Felipe and Kimi taking points off each other, when Alonso theatens to escape.

Who do you think they will choose at this rate?

The engine issue cost Kimi around 1 tenth per lap, according to Todt.
Massa beat him by over 0,4 seconds in qual...

[Juppe]

The engine issue cost Kimi around 1 tenth per lap, according to Todt.
Massa beat him by over 0,4 seconds in qual...

Where did Todt say that?

[Dzeidzei]

The engine issue cost Kimi around 1 tenth per lap, according to Todt.
Massa beat him by over 0,4 seconds in qual...

Link to this Todt comment?

I read KR was .5K revs off, thats a lot more than one tenth in Sepang.

Anyway, Felipe showed what he´s made of. Cannot pass a slower rookie. Just forget the title hopes and concentrate on Kimi.

I said a long time ago that Felipe needs to be quicker than Kimi in the first 3 races if he hopes to have any shot at being the number one driver. Now after 2 races he doesnt have a chance in hell to become number one.

[Garry Walker]

Its on autosport front page.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57946

[Eki]

None.
Exactly. Being faster than Kimi didn't help him a bit.

[Dzeidzei]

Its on autosport front page.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57946

Thanks Garry.

[race aficionado]

I agree. Massa is as erratic as ever under pressure. I wonder how Garry could like him, as he is tha same as the driver, he loathes most, Montoya.

Nope, Garry Loves Montoya. :D

And I agree with Garry about Massa. Massa is the real deal and I will enjoys seeing him battle Kimi for Ferrari's top spot.

Today Massa just went for it and lost. That's racin'

:s mokin:

[Robinho]

Massa decimates Kimi (and everyone) by having a car that is quicker and lighter and yet still manages to race from 1st to 5th in the best car on the grid, yet is showing why he is better and faster than Kimi and will win the WDC.

fortunatley the only people to belive this are Massa, Massa's mum and Garry, whilst the rest ofthe F1 field continue to go about there business safe ion the knowledge that if Massa carries on this way he will be lucky to finsih 4th in the WDC this year.

like i said on another thread, yes he's quick, super quick sometimes, but will probably not win unless starting from the front in the best car, and even then not often anough. when faced with adveristy he is erratic and prone to over driving and making mistakes, not the mark of a champion.

[aryan]

Garry, In understand your passion for Massa and I applaud it.

Most of us who have been following his career from his Sauber days and even before that, know that he can be fast. But you, a person who loved MS not only for his speed but also for his consistency, surely recognise that in order to be WDC you need to be fast and consistent. To me Massa lacks in that second department. He is too erratic.

[ten-tenths]

Massa proved much faster than Kimi though. But yes, he stupidly ruined his own race. But fact is - he decimated Kimi in qualifying.

that he did, but i think i remember massa coming in for his pitstop a lap earlier than kimi. he had lighter fuel load essentially than kimi. but i give you this, massa seems very quick but i have yet to be mesmerized by the way he races.

[jens]

Rev-limiter cost Kimi about one tenth a lap?

Well, that kind of time loss per lap seems quite reasonable, because if it had been significantly bigger, then changing the engine and losing 10 places would have been a better option.

[wedge]

Massa proved much faster than Kimi though. But yes, he stupidly ruined his own race. But fact is - he decimated Kimi in qualifying.

But is still proves that Massa will currently isn't seriously considered as WDC material.

OK I wasn't too surprised he would be quicker than Kimi at Sepang. After all, Massa did beat Schumi fair and square last year.

Part of being WDC contention is damage limitation or as Lewis Hamilton likes to point out: "turning a negative into a positive."

FM should've passed LH and messed it up numerously. Just as his confidence is shattered he gives up all hope and is quite happy stay in 5th behind a supposedly inferior Sauber of Nick Heidfeld.

[ShiftingGears]

Ahhh Massa that was an amateur mistake! Get your head together! Both drivers were outmanuvered by a rookie into turn one, it was never going to be easy after that. But Massa managed to cock it up completely. Old days coming back to haunt him? Also, I think he's going to get thumped by Raikkonen when it rains.

[jso1985]

Yes. If the cars can't overtake in Imola, it's OK, narrow track, strategy is most important there.
If they can't pass in Sepang...


yes they can and easily! just take a look at the back of the grid, I think Davidson overtook like 4 times and was overtaken another 4 times.

but when your try the Massa way you ain't gonna get results!

[Ranger]

That was Massa's to lose. He somehow managed to let both of the McLaren's past, yet blocked his team-mate Raikkonen. He made not only his crucial error, but mistakes throughout the race meant he couldn't grab fourth or higher.

Of course, win-or-bin it is a great mentality to watch on screen, but it's certainly silly when you want to be WDC. And at this rate, he won't be, especially considering how McLaren are intruigingly up on Ferrari in the WCC standings already.

[Garry Walker]

Garry, In understand your passion for Massa and I applaud it.

Most of us who have been following his career from his Sauber days and even before that, know that he can be fast. But you, a person who loved MS not only for his speed but also for his consistency, surely recognise that in order to be WDC you need to be fast and consistent. To me Massa lacks in that second department. He is too erratic.

Massas problem is that sometimes he loses his head. He is faster than Kimi, but yes, he is more inconsistant. You cant compare Massa with Schumi, one is a very good driver, but the other is the undoubted all time best.


that he did, but i think i remember massa coming in for his pitstop a lap earlier than kimi. he had lighter fuel load essentially than kimi. but i give you this, massa seems very quick but i have yet to be mesmerized by the way he races.

Kimi had 1 lap more fuel - that is worth about 0,05 seconds

[ArrowsFA1]

Massas problem is that sometimes he loses his head. He is faster than Kimi, but yes, he is more inconsistant.
There you have Massa's problem in a nutshell. Inconsistent. It's all very well being fast, but when that speed is irratic, and uncontrolled, you get what we saw in Malaysia.

[Juppe]

Massas problem is that sometimes he loses his head. He is faster than Kimi, but yes, he is more inconsistant. You cant compare Massa with Schumi, one is a very good driver, but the other is the undoubted all time best.

Kimi had 1 lap more fuel - that is worth about 0,05 seconds

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/955363.html

Here is a claim at Spanish Marca that Kimi was limited to 17500 rpm and that his setup was such that it enhanced straight speed but cost in slow parts. That would mean that Kimi's disadvantage was about 75 hp.

Our Spanish forum members could comment on how reliable you consider Marca.

If that is true I understand very well what Kimi meant by "compromises" and that Kimi drove a great race.

[kalasend]

Somehow I got the feeling that if Massa was fighting with Alonso he would have performed better. Hamilton's extraordinarily mature racecraft (relative to a rookie) simply surprises many. And Massa is the first victim, of course. It would be interesting to know what Kimi was thinking while watching the battle in front of him.

[Garry Walker]

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/955363.html

Here is a claim at Spanish Marca that Kimi was limited to 17500 rpm and that his setup was such that it enhanced straight speed but cost in slow parts. That would mean that Kimi's disadvantage was about 75 hp.

Our Spanish forum members could comment on how reliable you consider Marca.

If that is true I understand very well what Kimi meant by "compromises" and that Kimi drove a great race.

75 HP

hahahahahahahahahaha.

there is no way he was having a 10% weaker engine:P

[Juppe]

75 HP

hahahahahahahahahaha.

there is no way he was having a 10% weaker engine:P

Probably not, cause that would mean that Massa really sucked. :D

Jean Todt's 0.1 seconds per lap sounds a bit optimistic as well - I don't think we'll ever know where the truth is.

However, next race will give some answers as whether at least Kimi will bounce back with fresh engine. If not - then there is something else as well.

[janneppi]

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/955363.html

Here is a claim at Spanish Marca that Kimi was limited to 17500 rpm and that his setup was such that it enhanced straight speed but cost in slow parts. That would mean that Kimi's disadvantage was about 75 hp.

Our Spanish forum members could comment on how reliable you consider Marca.

If that is true I understand very well what Kimi meant by "compromises" and that Kimi drove a great race.

It was estimated in Finnish press that Kimi was down about 40-50 hp, don't remember was it YLE or MTV3, it was odd that Kimi hinted about other issues aswell, was the floor indeed more important to Fefe as they lead on. I missed explenations why Massa didn't pass Heidi in the end of the race, did he have some problems with the car?

[Dzeidzei]

Massas problem is that sometimes he loses his head. He is faster than Kimi, but yes, he is more inconsistant.

The problem with talking to people like you, Garry, is that its a lot like talking to religious fanatics. They seem to make sense sometimes, but in their logic there are parts that are simply stupid.

In this particular post the "Massa sometimes loses his head" is right, altho a bit of an understatement. Massa being faster is plain stupid and like someone already pointed out, only Massa, his mother, you and some other people here seem to believe that.

But thats fine. Some people think the earth is flat.

Im sorry, buddy, I just cannot understand you.

[F1boat]

That was Massa's to lose. He somehow managed to let both of the McLaren's past, yet blocked his team-mate Raikkonen.
That speak volumes about how much he is afraid from Kimi.

[Ranger]

That speak volumes about how much he is afraid from Kimi.

I agree.

Felipe's a driver that very much thrives on confidence, and in this regard I feel somewhat sorry that he has held himself in such high regard for this championship, because in terms of ability and psychology he is just not as good as Raikkonen.

I like the guy as a race winner - but the title of WDC contender has always seemed a bit of a silly concept to me after everyone jumped on that bandwagon after Brazil 2006.

[ioan]

The problem with talking to people like you, Garry, is that its a lot like talking to religious fanatics. They seem to make sense sometimes, but in their logic there are parts that are simply stupid.

No one is perfect, not me and not you, so why these comments?
Can't you just expose your point without attacking the poster?

[DonJippo]

No one is perfect, not me and not you, so why these comments?
Can't you just expose your point without attacking the poster?

Where is the attack? He is talking about religious fanatics and their behaviour.

[Dzeidzei]

The problem with talking to people like you, Garry, is that its a lot like talking to religious fanatics. They seem to make sense sometimes, but in their logic there are parts that are simply stupid.


Well, just to make sure: I have nothing against you, Garry and wasnt trying to attact you. I dont know you and Im sure you are a very nice guy. (see, I defend myself even before you get all crazy on this matter :) )

Its just that some opinions you have are beyond me. The whole point of this forum (or any other forum for that matter) is to exchange ideas and discuss. If something looks like an apple and tastes like apple, it usually is an apple. But to a fanatic this means nothing and thats something that I find very difficult to understand.

But I will always defend anyone´s right to think however they please. I just cannot understand it. Maybe thats what being a fan really is: being fanatic. In that sense I will never be a true fan, I will have to admit.

[ioan]

Where is the attack? He is talking about religious fanatics and their behaviour.

You must have missed the "like you, Garry" part.

[airshifter]

Like many here, I like Massa. I simply don't think he will beat Kimi over the course of the season. He lacks consistency, and this affect his ability to pressure drivers for a hard to win position, and makes it hard to him to defend against the same.

If there weren't other cars on the track, it may be a different story. But this isn't WRC, it's F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

But fact is - he decimated Kimi in qualifying.
By your own reasoning Garry, do you accept that Kimi "decimated" Felipe in the 1st practice at Bahrain?

Kimi - 1:33.162
Felipe - 1:33.679

[raphael123]

Garry Walker is right guys, since Massa and Kimi have been team-mates, Massa has generally been the quicker of the two in tests, practice and qualifying!

However it's the Sunday afternoon where you get the points, and though Massa did well in Oz, he had to start at the back (through no fault of his own), and then he cracked in Malaysia. But Massa has shown more speed. Whether it's a case of Kimi taking time to settle into the team, I don't know, but so far, since January, Massa has been the quicker of the two.

PS: Don't interpret that as me saying Massa is better than Kimi, or quicker. I'm just saying, since they've been team-mates, Massa has been the guy who has shown more speed.

[Shalafi]

Garry Walker is right guys, since Massa and Kimi have been team-mates, Massa has generally been the quicker of the two in tests, practice and qualifying!

However it's the Sunday afternoon where you get the points, and though Massa did well in Oz, he had to start at the back (through no fault of his own), and then he cracked in Malaysia. But Massa has shown more speed. Whether it's a case of Kimi taking time to settle into the team, I don't know, but so far, since January, Massa has been the quicker of the two.

PS: Don't interpret that as me saying Massa is better than Kimi, or quicker. I'm just saying, since they've been team-mates, Massa has been the guy who has shown more speed.

Massa has been quicker in wintertests because they did a different testing program. Kimi said that in wintertesting he didnt even once try a fast lap with little fuel and fresh tyres like Massa. In Australia Kimi was quickest in saturday practice when they made a quali-setup, in qualifying (to that point when Massa had problems) and a lot quicker in race. In last race you cant compare because Kimi was driving with reduced engine...still he beat Massa in race. Today in first practise Kimi was 0,5 seconds quicker...so how Massa has been showing more speed?

[raphael123]

Massa has been quicker in wintertests because they did a different testing program. Kimi said that in wintertesting he didnt even once try a fast lap with little fuel and fresh tyres like Massa. In Australia Kimi was quickest in saturday practice when they made a quali-setup, in qualifying (to that point when Massa had problems) and a lot quicker in race. In last race you cant compare because Kimi was driving with reduced engine...still he beat Massa in race. Today in first practise Kimi was 0,5 seconds quicker...so how Massa has been showing more speed?

Over the winter Massa was generally quicker, to state otherwise when it's factual rather than an opinion would be stupid. If Kimi is saying that he never tried a fast lap through the entire of winter testing that is rather shocking! That's not the usual practice. So you mean the first time he ever drove a car with little fuel was in Oz before qualifying? Do you really believe that Ferrari would put Kimi in such an unprepared position? I need to see a link of that quote please. Generally over winter testing the team split the drivers duties, but they never give one aspect of development to one driver, and the another to the other. As the old saying goes, 2 heads is better than 1. They rarely give them the same tasks at the same time, but they both do similar work, at different times.

In Oz, Massa was quicker in Prac 1 & Prac 2. It was only when it came to Saturday where Kimi was quicker, before Massa retired. Q1 which doesn't really count for much in comparison to Q2 and 3 where you see who is quickest, which unfortunately Massa never competed in. And of course Kimi was quicker in the race, he was upfront with no traffic, Massa started from the back.

Kimi's engine was indeed reduced - Todt has said it cost Kimi maybe 0.1s a lap at most. Massa was quicker in Prac 1, Prac 2, Prac 3, and in Qual 2 & 3, and set a faster lap.

So... how has Kimi been showing more speed?

[555-04Q2]

Over the winter Massa was generally quicker, to state otherwise when it's factual rather than an opinion would be stupid. If Kimi is saying that he never tried a fast lap through the entire of winter testing that is rather shocking! That's not the usual practice. So you mean the first time he ever drove a car with little fuel was in Oz before qualifying? Do you really believe that Ferrari would put Kimi in such an unprepared position? I need to see a link of that quote please. Generally over winter testing the team split the drivers duties, but they never give one aspect of development to one driver, and the another to the other. As the old saying goes, 2 heads is better than 1. They rarely give them the same tasks at the same time, but they both do similar work, at different times.

In Oz, Massa was quicker in Prac 1 & Prac 2. It was only when it came to Saturday where Kimi was quicker, before Massa retired. Q1 which doesn't really count for much in comparison to Q2 and 3 where you see who is quickest, which unfortunately Massa never competed in. And of course Kimi was quicker in the race, he was upfront with no traffic, Massa started from the back.

Kimi's engine was indeed reduced - Todt has said it cost Kimi maybe 0.1s a lap at most. Massa was quicker in Prac 1, Prac 2, Prac 3, and in Qual 2 & 3, and set a faster lap.

So... how has Kimi been showing more speed?

True. If Kimi was as good as he is supposed to be (he is quick though, lets be honest) he would have blown Massa away during testing, quali's and fastest race laps. His current form since winter vs Massa in raw pace shows that MS would have cleaned him up in a straight fight unlike predictions from certail quarters last year and the whole Schumi is scared of Kimi cr@p.

Kimi is good, but he is not Alonso good. I would love to see Alonso in a Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite F1 personality.

[Robinho]

By your own reasoning Garry, do you accept that Kimi "decimated" Felipe in the 1st practice at Bahrain?

Kimi - 1:33.162
Felipe - 1:33.679

i was just about to post the same FACT that Kimi DECIMATED massa in first practice (and everyone else) with his first fast lap, the only person who beat that was himself, half a scond quicker than Massa and a full second quicker than anyone else.

Ominous start from Ferrari and Kimi in particular

[raphael123]

True. If Kimi was as good as he is supposed to be (he is quick though, lets be honest) he would have blown Massa away during testing, quali's and fastest race laps. His current form since winter vs Massa in raw pace shows that MS would have cleaned him up in a straight fight unlike predictions from certail quarters last year and the whole Schumi is scared of Kimi cr@p.

Kimi is good, but he is not Alonso good. I would love to see Alonso in a Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite F1 personality.

Don't get me wrong. I think Kimi is a better driver than Massa. But I think people underestimate Massa, and Massa has definately been the quicker of the two so far, but he hasn't converted that into the race finishes yet.

However, I'll be surprised if Kimi isn't at least matching Massa, and probably beating Kimi by the end of the year!

The only thing I disagree with is your opinion on MS. I think the fact he would be facing someone regarded as the quickest driver in F1 in the same machinery had an influence on him deciding to quit now rather than this year. Maybe he should have stayed and beaten Kimi, which would have said even more than if he finished last year as WC! The fact he never allowed the team to hire someone regarded as the best, suggests it definately was something he thought about!

[Shalafi]

Over the winter Massa was generally quicker, to state otherwise when it's factual rather than an opinion would be stupid. If Kimi is saying that he never tried a fast lap through the entire of winter testing that is rather shocking! That's not the usual practice. So you mean the first time he ever drove a car with little fuel was in Oz before qualifying? Do you really believe that Ferrari would put Kimi in such an unprepared position? I need to see a link of that quote please. Generally over winter testing the team split the drivers duties, but they never give one aspect of development to one driver, and the another to the other. As the old saying goes, 2 heads is better than 1. They rarely give them the same tasks at the same time, but they both do similar work, at different times.

In Oz, Massa was quicker in Prac 1 & Prac 2. It was only when it came to Saturday where Kimi was quicker, before Massa retired. Q1 which doesn't really count for much in comparison to Q2 and 3 where you see who is quickest, which unfortunately Massa never competed in. And of course Kimi was quicker in the race, he was upfront with no traffic, Massa started from the back.

Kimi's engine was indeed reduced - Todt has said it cost Kimi maybe 0.1s a lap at most. Massa was quicker in Prac 1, Prac 2, Prac 3, and in Qual 2 & 3, and set a faster lap.

So... how has Kimi been showing more speed?


I said he didnt drive with little fuel AND fresh tyres...also you cant make any assumptions based on winter testing...they were driving different programs, Kimi was adapting to Ferrari using old Ferrari parts while Massa got new parts first.

In Australia its stupid and blind to even try to defend Massa because they were in a different level completely

As for last race, I rather believe Keke Rosberg who says what he thinks. He said that Kimi done a helluva job in there. He also said that reducing the engine ment a lot more than a tenth of a second. Todt just didnt want to tell the truth because it would sound stupid that it was much more because then they would be benefited of changing the engine. But Ferrari underestimated McLarens speed and that was the mistake. They thought that Ferrari would be faster than Macs even reducing engine considerably because of the time difference that was in Oz. They didnt want to risk Kimi starting from 11th because that is always a risk.

And finally...this weekend you can again see why Kimi is faster than Massa. There is so many ways to look at the tests and everything...but only thing that matters is the points table...you will see the difference there between Kimi and Massa growing and growing as the year progresses... :) And when that happens, there is no buts and excuses left, even for the blindest Massa fans. Although like in case with Kimi vs JPM, you can never tell with some people... ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

True. If Kimi was as good as he is supposed to be (he is quick though, lets be honest) he would have blown Massa away during testing...
Testing is not there for drivers to blow each other away. It is there for them to...well...test!! Of course it would be nice to know definatively which driver is the quicker of the two, but unless anyone can point to timesheets which show they were running the same car setup, comments about the Ferrari drivers pace during testing is mere speculation.

One driver (although there have probably been others) who always liked to post the fastest testing time at the end of the day was Nigel Mansell. Low fuel, sticky tyres secured his name at the top of the testing time sheet. The lap achieved nothing for the team, but it was important for Mansell to be seen as fastest. He knew how the lap time had been achieved, but others wouldn't.

Likewise, the times I posted from Bahrain mean little because I have no idea what tyres, or fuel load each driver was running, and they could have been running different programmes in preparation for the race.

We fans love to be able to say 'our' driver is faster than 'your' driver, and those kind of discussions are endless, but that's not where the teams' interest is. They want good work done during the course of testing, and a race weekend, to ensure the best possible result.

All we can say with certainty is that so far Kimi has produced better results for Ferrari than Felipe.

[F1boat]

And in Friday Free 1 the gap is significant, really huge.

[janneppi]

Over the winter Massa was generally quicker, to state otherwise when it's factual rather than an opinion would be stupid. If Kimi is saying that he never tried a fast lap through the entire of winter testing that is rather shocking! That's not the usual practice. So you mean the first time he ever drove a car with little fuel was in Oz before qualifying? Do you really believe that Ferrari would put Kimi in such an unprepared position? I need to see a link of that quote please. Generally over winter testing the team split the drivers duties, but they never give one aspect of development to one driver, and the another to the other. As the old saying goes, 2 heads is better than 1. They rarely give them the same tasks at the same time, but they both do similar work, at different times.



http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/arkisto.shtml/arkistot/f1/2007/03/510410 (in Finnish) According to Kimi(according to that article) he has mostly driven with high fuel loads, partly because limited testing weather permitted, and added that he didn't think it would be an issue in qually.,

I think he has driven also with light fuel loads but not as much as Massa who had better understanding of the car and didn't need as much race testing, which IMO is more important. Mind you on occation Kimi has been the fastest Ferrari in testing too this winter, so Massa didn't get a 100% "win" there.

[jas123f1]

Personally i was earlier sure that Massa should be before Kimi on the 3 first races - and first after Bahrain Kimi sould be on the same level with him. But Kimi has made it even quicker than i (and many others – i think) never could believe. We can see that he already is on the same level as Massa - if not better - and that’s a great and promising result of the whole team and makes that we have a reason to wait good results from them.
Thanks to JT who has always given Kimi his understanding and told the team that “Kimi is not Schumi” and also the team must learn to work together with him and not only the opposite. It looks now that the team and Kimi have found their way they can get it out and I’m sure the result will be good. If it’s enough to the WCC and WDC-titles it's of course more difficult to say, but I’m sure they will be fighting of "IT" during whole season.

:)

[ShiftingGears]

Theres a big gap between Kimi and Massa in practice one, but thats what it is, practice. I'll reserve my judgement until after qualifying.

[jas123f1]

Theres a big gap between Kimi and Massa in practice one, but thats what it is, practice. I'll reserve my judgement until after qualifying.

Sure, it's only friday practice and doesn't say that much. Let's wait to the race before giving any "judgement". :)

[Juppe]

True. If Kimi was as good as he is supposed to be (he is quick though, lets be honest) he would have blown Massa away during testing, quali's and fastest race laps. His current form since winter vs Massa in raw pace shows that MS would have cleaned him up in a straight fight unlike predictions from certail quarters last year and the whole Schumi is scared of Kimi cr@p.

Kimi is good, but he is not Alonso good. I would love to see Alonso in a Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite F1 personality.

Dear 555, that is such a load of bull. I for one expected Massa to have an upper hand in the first couple of races, but then Kimi catching on very fast. He has been better than I expected him to be in the first two races and my expectatins were huge, cause I am a huge Kimi fan.

In my mind, Massa's chances to be the number one driver are quite slim.

It is not like Michael blew away Massa last year, was it? Massa did actually quite well, when we take into account that it was his first year racing for Ferrari.

And saying after two races, when the points are 16 to 7 in the new driver's favor, that MS would have "cleaned him up" is just plain pathetic and without any relevance to the facts.

[555-04Q2]

Dear 555, that is such a load of bull.

Its my opinion. If its a load of bull then ignore it. You have your half arsed opinions and I have mine.

I'm sick of the sh!t people on this forum give you when you post your opinions whether they are right or wrong :down:

I outta this sh!thole for a while.

[janneppi]

Come on Juppe, MS would be leading 20-0 to everyone, he would have punted his rivals one by one in each race finishing alone driving 40 secs per lap faster than the previous lap records. :p :

[ioan]

KR fans are the worse I ever seen, cant do bad, cant do wrong etc, and everything is bright after just 2 races out of 17!
I'll support the guy because he deserves it, but in another way.

[Juppe]

KR fans are the worse I ever seen, cant do bad, cant do wrong etc, and everything is bright after just 2 races out of 17!
I'll support the guy because he deserves it, but in another way.

Come on Ioan - if you mean me, I can honestly say that I've never bashed any driver as badly as 555-04Q2 bashes usually Kimi. That is the reason, why I'm slightly impatient with his comments.

After the winter testing most people built up the Massa-hype and expected Kimi having tough time to beat his teammate.

Now that Kimi has actually and unexpectedly performed better than his teammate (some of it is because of the unfair conditions, I admit) I - as a Kimi fan - can be rightfully happy about it, can't I?

And now somebody comes and says: "Yeah, but Michael would have annihilated Kimi, cause he should be 100 times better than Massa in order to compete Michael!"

And everybody who watched last season knows that the claim is just very stupid.

So what have I done to deserve your contempt?

[Shalafi]

KR fans are the worse I ever seen, cant do bad, cant do wrong etc, and everything is bright after just 2 races out of 17!
I'll support the guy because he deserves it, but in another way.

Why you generalize and attack to other posters, ioan? This is very rude behaviour from you...

[Ian McC]

KR fans are the worse I ever seen, cant do bad, cant do wrong etc, and everything is bright after just 2 races out of 17!
I'll support the guy because he deserves it, but in another way.


:disturb:

I really think I will pass on this one....................

[Ian McC]

Massa's problem has always been he has a tendency to be erratic, as shown last week. Certainly wouldn't call him a bad driver.

[COD]

Massa was outpaced again in practice 2.

So he has been outpaced by Kimi in everywhere else but Malaysia before the race (I don't count winter testing as a measure of speed).

Ferrari made calculations and probably came to the conclusion that Kimi would loose less with reduced engine in Malaysia rather than starting 11th-12th or at worse 13th. And they were probably right! OK, little helped by Massas mistake (but I must say I respect Massa for at least trying to overtake, something many in F1 nowdays don't do!) but still.

We will see over the season that Massa will join the list of teammates destroyed by Kimi. But not by as much as Coulthard and Montoya

[DimitraF1]

ioannnnnn ioanni :P

[ioan]

Why you generalize and attack to other posters, ioan?

Because that's what I think.


This is very rude behaviour from you...

I'm not perfect either! :D

[DimitraF1]

ban ioan ban ioan yes yes yes :P

[rlenis]

My two cents on Kimi vs Massa so far.

- Kimi is absolutely a better all around driver then Massa there is no questions about that.
- Massa has shown that he could be very fast with the new Ferrari on a single lap. His qualy lap last Sunday was perfect.
- Kimi is slowly adapting to the Ferrari and the bridgetones. He is almost there.
- The last race was lost in the first turn. Both Kimi and Massa screwed up and underestimated Hamilton and Alonso. Alonso beat Massa to the turn and Kimi opened the door to Hamilton ala "after you sir" - P3 was given to Lewis, his brilliance came when he overtook Massa for P2 in T2 & T3.
- Massa has bad luck - and luck is one the most important ingredients to challenge for WDC.
- If Massa continues to make small costly mistakes, his chances to make any attempt to challenge for WDC are minimal. The team will put all resources on Kimi.
- Kimi does not only have Alonso to worry about, he has Lewis also.
- Based on the last two races, who ever qualifies in front of each other would have a big advantage. Overtaking seems to be more difficult this year. Massa is very fast on single lap, so Kimi better watch out for this.
- I like Massa's character and I liked how he stood by his failed attempt to overtake Hamilton. It was his only chance to redeem himself from the poor start.
- What about reliability - this could be a very key factor depending on who is affected the most by it.

- Both will have their hands full trying to beat Alonso based on current Mclaren form, if they don't become as aggressive as the Spaniard they are gonna loose big time.

[DexDexter]

True. If Kimi was as good as he is supposed to be (he is quick though, lets be honest) he would have blown Massa away during testing, quali's and fastest race laps. His current form since winter vs Massa in raw pace shows that MS would have cleaned him up in a straight fight unlike predictions from certail quarters last year and the whole Schumi is scared of Kimi cr@p.

Kimi is good, but he is not Alonso good. I would love to see Alonso in a Ferrari, even though he is not my favourite F1 personality.

Kimi would actually be a two times world champion without Mclaren's reliability problems, I've seen nothing that suggests Alonso is a better/faster driver than Kimi. Finishing races with a reliable car doesn't make one a better driver... What exactly makes Alonso a better driver than Kimi? And as far as Schumacher goes, we'll never know, but Michael never had a teammate of Kimi's caliber. Piquet, Brundle, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa, none of them were/are considered as top drivers (in the sense of let's say Senna, Prost, Mansell etc.) (ok Piquet was in his prime but that's another story).

[Juppe]

Ok, I'm first to admit - today Massa did a superb job in qualifying and was clearly better than Kimi. In all sessions he was ahead and Kimi seemed to have trouble to get his car right for the qualifying, which is something he has been saying the whole season. At the same time Massa seems to have no problems in qualy setup.

The first corner will be as interesting as in Malesia, Hamilton surely wants to find his way past Massa and Massa will not want to let it happen.

All in all, this could spell disaster for the race and there is obviously the second row waiting for their chance.

[pino]

Great pole for Massa but let's see how he will performe in the race, especially at the start. It won't be easy to keep both Hamilton and Alonso behind.Kimi could take an advantage this time...

[tintop]

Massa was outpaced again in practice 2.
oops!


We will see over the season that Massa will join the list of teammates destroyed by Kimi. But not by as much as Coulthard and Montoya

Kimi destroyed neither - David was already in decline and JP had bigger demons than KR, like himself (mostly) and Ron.

[wedge]

Kimi has more fuel than Massa???.....

[Juppe]

Kimi has more fuel than Massa???.....

If so, I don't think it's more than a couple of laps. Kimi was clearly slower in the first two sessions as well and the gap remained about the same in the third session, so I don't think fuel load explains all the difference.

[janneppi]

I don't think there is a meaningful difference in fuel loads between the two Ferrari's, Kimi really needs to up his qualification driving.
This time Massa can't afford anything but a win, if he's behind Hamilton or Kimi, it will be tough for him to justify why team shouldn't concentrate more on Kimi even when it's this early in season.

[trumperZ06]

Kimi has more fuel than Massa???.....

;) My thoughts, too !

Kimi did say... "We have a good race car, but need to impove a bit in qualifying" !

Kimi didn't seem overly concerned with Massa out-qualifying him.

Asked if he was satisfied with third... Kimi replied...

"Not really, but it was the best I could do. I had traffic on both my new tyre runs."

[COD]

oops!



Kimi destroyed neither - David was already in decline and JP had bigger demons than KR, like himself (mostly) and Ron.


He was in practice 2. In qualifying Massa did a great job and was clearly faster than Kimi. Was it fuel, of traffic as hinted by Kimi, who knows. Will be interesting to see in the race.

However, Kimi destroyed his teammates. To try and find reasons elswhere is stupid. OK, DC was allready destroyed by Mika, but I think he thought he can do better against the unexperienced Räikkönen, well

[ArrowsFA1]

Great pole for Massa but let's see how he will performe in the race, especially at the start. It won't be easy to keep both Hamilton and Alonso behind.Kimi could take an advantage this time...
I don't know about Massa vs Kimi...this is shaping up to be Massa vs Hamilton going on their comments after qualifying:
Massa:
"I think he [Hamilton] made a good start [in Malaysia] but we also gave him space, so this time we know what he can do - so we won't give him the space any more."
Hamilton:
"I don't think it is intimidating. I think for sure he is attempting to play some mind games, but it makes no difference to me. I know what I need to do at the first corner."
This could be interesting... :cool:

[trumperZ06]

I don't know about Massa vs Kimi...this is shaping up to be Massa vs Hamilton going on their comments after qualifying:
Massa:
Hamilton:
This could be interesting... :cool:

;) Hhmmmm.... my guess is that Massa is under a LOT more pressure than Hamilton !!!

If... and it may be a mighty Big IF... Lewis can get traction... my money would be on Hamilton, the first corner is a Hair-Pin turn, using first or second gear.

[Juppe]

The way they are clashing the words starts to sound like a first-corner-disaster.

Both of them have said the fighting words out loud and now it is the time to walk the walk... I hope there won't a big pile up in the first corner.

There is a big possibility that one of them (Lewis/Felipe) will look stupid after the start and Felipe may have more pressure after the poor start to the season. He kind of looked like a haunted man in the press conference.

[DimitraF1]

hamilton is starting from the dirty line ...very diarty Bahrain line...!!!
Kimi will steal 2nd for sure as he start right behind massa

[F1boat]

Massa did a super job and I hope that this time he will block Hamilton and not Raikkonen, like in Malaysia.

[Garry Walker]

The problem with talking to people like you, Garry, is that its a lot like talking to religious fanatics. They seem to make sense sometimes, but in their logic there are parts that are simply stupid.

In this particular post the "Massa sometimes loses his head" is right, altho a bit of an understatement. Massa being faster is plain stupid and like someone already pointed out, only Massa, his mother, you and some other people here seem to believe that.

But thats fine. Some people think the earth is flat.

Im sorry, buddy, I just cannot understand you.

Today Massa was faster and also better, wasnt he?
I dont like gloating (well, actually I do :D ), but I will allow myself one now :D :D :D

Dont compare me with religious fanatics, thats a bit too low of a blow.


By your own reasoning Garry, do you accept that Kimi "decimated" Felipe in the 1st practice at Bahrain?

Kimi - 1:33.162
Felipe - 1:33.679

Desperation setting in :D ? If I was a Kimi fan, Id be quite worried.

Qualy and Race set the order clear. Kimi had nothing against Felipes pace this weekend and was beaten. Clearly. No questions, no excuses for him.



It is not like Michael blew away Massa last year, was it? Massa did actually quite well, when we take into account that it was his first year racing for Ferrari.

Massa was on average about half a second slower than Schumi. By how much was Kimi slower than Massa in the qualifying?



Kimi destroyed neither - David was already in decline and JP had bigger demons than KR, like himself (mostly) and Ron.

Yes, I would agree with that. In 2002 DC and KR were equal, but after that DC just started losing it. JPM was greatly overrated and was piece of cake for Kimi (as it should have been). Massa is a different character though, the fastest and strongest driver Kimi has ever faced and it seems so far, as I expected, that Massa is having the upper hand.

[Shalafi]

Kimi has a problems getting everything out of the car in the qualifying. That is his problem but they know what is causing that. I expect problem to be solved for the next race and then Kimi will have an upperhand against Massa.

Massas problem is that he can be a great like this weekend or like Brazil last year, but then he can blow couple of races with stupid mistakes and that is why he wont fight for WDC. He also benefits for Kimis problems in qualifying and his longer stay in Ferrari. But both advantages will lessen all the time.

[Garry Walker]

That is his problem but they know what is causing that.


Where did you read that?

[akv89]

Today Massa was faster and also better, wasnt he?
I dont like gloating (well, actually I do :D ), but I will allow myself one now :D :D :D

I agree, Massa was better than Kimi today. So that's 2 rounds for Kimi and 1 round for Massa, right? :)

[Juppe]

Today Massa was faster and also better, wasnt he?
I dont like gloating (well, actually I do :D ), but I will allow myself one now :D :D :D

Qualy and Race set the order clear. Kimi had nothing against Felipes pace this weekend and was beaten. Clearly. No questions, no excuses for him.


Yes, Massa was better this weekend... go ahead and gloat. :D



Massa was on average about half a second slower than Schumi. By how much was Kimi slower than Massa in the qualifying?


But you seem to forget that Kimi is in the situation where he still is learning the car (at least I hope he is) and is still new to the team whereas Massa is more experienced at Ferrari for now. That was the same thing for Massa last year, when MS had the upper hand.

Let's see how the things develop as the season continues...

[Garry Walker]

I agree, Massa was better than Kimi today. So that's 2 rounds for Kimi and 1 round for Massa, right? :)

no.
1:1 at most, although speedwise its probably 2:0 for Massa. you cant count Melbourne, because Felipe had serious car problems.



But you seem to forget that Kimi is in the situation where he still is learning the car (at least I hope he is) and is still new to the team whereas Massa is more experienced at Ferrari for now. That was the same thing for Massa last year, when MS had the upper hand.

Let's see how the things develop as the season continues...

How long does he still need FFS? He has had almost 20 test days, thousands of KM on various tracks. Schumacher came to F1, with half a days of testing, and had to drive on the most difficult circuit in F1 and shone. Why cant Kimi after thousands of KM of testing and many years in F1 do that aswell?
IMO, Kimi is at his limit at Ferrari already and just finding that Massa is too good for him.

[Juppe]

How long does he still need FFS? He has had almost 20 test days, thousands of KM on various tracks. Schumacher came to F1, with half a days of testing, and had to drive on the most difficult circuit in F1 and shone. Why cant Kimi after thousands of KM of testing and many years in F1 do that aswell?
IMO, Kimi is at his limit at Ferrari already and just finding that Massa is too good for him.

You really jump to the conclusions fast, don't you?

Kimi came to F1 with very limited experience as well and shone.

I'll would wait for a couple more races just to see how this will develop. As Kimi said, he is still to find a good quali setup for him and that is something they did not test before the season. I expect them to look into it before the next race and we'll see, if Kimi's quali pace improves.

[akv89]

no.
1:1 at most, although speedwise its probably 2:0 for Massa. you cant count Melbourne, because Felipe had serious car problems.

That's no fair. how come you get to make excuses and I don't ;)

[janneppi]

Where did you read that?
He said it in an interview after the race

[F1boat]

Why not accept that we see amazing battles between amazing drivers?

[Shalafi]

Why not accept that we see amazing battles between amazing drivers?

Of course it is great. But when Kimi is not happy with his car and has difficulties because it doesnt fit at all to his driving (specially in a quali but in race too), Im not happy either. If the car is great and setup is like he wants to be, he would say that even if he loses and then I would have no complaints also. ;) Hopefully they can solve problems for next race and Kimi can really show what he can do with Ferrari. :)

[F1boat]

I hope so. I am stunned by Hamilton I respect Alonso and I like Massa. But I want Kimi to win. :)

[jens]

I'm back from 2-day break...

Great job by Felipe :up: . And he silenced those, who thought that Kimi was slower in Malaysia just because of a rev-limited engine.

Let's see, whats gonna happen in Europe. So far Felipe has generally been fractionally quicker than Kimi. If the Brazilian can keep that advantage and has also learned from his mistakes made at Sepang, then the #1 status at Ferrari might still not be clear... to everyone's huge surprise.

[jas123f1]

I'm back from 2-day break...

Great job by Felipe :up: . And he silenced those, who thought that Kimi was slower in Malaysia just because of a rev-limited engine.

Let's see, whats gonna happen in Europe. So far Felipe has generally been fractionally quicker than Kimi. If the Brazilian can keep that advantage and has also learned from his mistakes made at Sepang, then the #1 status at Ferrari might still not be clear... to everyone's huge surprise.

Agreed, Massa made a perfect job and it was the best help also to Kimi. I'm waiting Europe with big interest. :)

[ioan]

That's no fair. how come you get to make excuses and I don't ;)

Well you know he is right. ;)

[ioan]

Why not accept that we see amazing battles between amazing drivers?

Don't really know, as I already stated I do have a problem with Kimi fans, they are worse than MS fans by a light year.
They can't even acknowledge that he might have a bad week end.
How do you want them to appreciate whatever when he isn't the absolute star?

I will however support the guy because he is fast and a Ferrari driver.

[akv89]

Well you know he is right. ;)

I do? I was pretty sure that he was dead wrong :p :

[ioan]

Of course it is great. But when Kimi is not happy with his car and has difficulties because it doesnt fit at all to his driving (specially in a quali but in race too), Im not happy either. If the car is great and setup is like he wants to be, he would say that even if he loses and then I would have no complaints also. ;) Hopefully they can solve problems for next race and Kimi can really show what he can do with Ferrari. :)

There are no problems with the car.
As there were no problems with the McLaren (although FA was beaten by NH).
Both KR and FA couldn't find the best setup for their cars, that's all, nothing to fix.

[ioan]

I do? I was pretty sure that he was dead wrong :p :

Good sense of humor there! :D

[akv89]

Don't really know, as I already stated I do have a problem with Kimi fans, they are worse than MS fans by a light year.
They can't even acknowledge that he might have a bad week end.
How do you want them to appreciate whatever when he isn't the absolute star?

I will however support the guy because he is fast and a Ferrari driver.

Of all people, you should know best that it is not wise to make such generalizations. I supported Michael and now I support Kimi. I've always tried to be objective and gave credit where it is due. For example, I have no problem admitting that Massa was a better overall driver than Kimi at Bahrain. I'm sure there are many other Kimi fans and Massa fans (like you ;) ) who are able to do the same.
So why the big fuss?

[ioan]

Of all people, you should know best that it is not wise to make such generalizations. I supported Michael and now I support Kimi. I've always tried to be objective and gave credit where it is due. For example, I have no problem admitting that Massa was a better overall driver than Kimi at Bahrain. I'm sure there are many other Kimi fans and Massa fans (like you ;) ) who are able to do the same.
So why the big fuss?

Do not be upset by my previous post if you aren't one of those I was referring to (I won't give names so I had to generalize, maybe there is a better way).
You have my excuses. :)

[Valve Bounce]

Massa is great when he is running in front and doesn't have to race anyone. He is a very fast driver. But is racing abilities in malaysia left something to be desired - he is not a good racer. Put him in a Toyota and he will be just a nobody.

[Ranger]

Massa is great when he is running in front and doesn't have to race anyone. He is a very fast driver. But is racing abilities in malaysia left something to be desired.

He's pretty good, but I'm yet to see how he will maintain this over Raikkonen during the whole season.

Regardless, he drove better than Kimi today, so well done.

[leopard]

Being agressive is point of interest for Massa, I saw Kimi, although currently performs with more maturity, has almost the same at McLaren.

There is always two option driving that way, wins or get out for engine/gearbox failure etc. All Massa needs is consistency, he and the car has SPEED, how can he maintain the rhythm as what he performed at Bahrain, all possibility is open.

[Shalafi]

There are no problems with the car.
As there were no problems with the McLaren (although FA was beaten by NH).
Both KR and FA couldn't find the best setup for their cars, that's all, nothing to fix.

Yes, of course YOU know exactly what is going on. Better than Kimi, probably better than Ferrari mechanics...

[Shalafi]

Don't really know, as I already stated I do have a problem with Kimi fans, they are worse than MS fans by a light year.
They can't even acknowledge that he might have a bad week end.
How do you want them to appreciate whatever when he isn't the absolute star?


Very objective...You, a fanatical MS fan who closed your eyes on every dirty trick that MS made, are bashing us Kimi-fans and stating with "great authority" how MS fans are better by a light year. Dont you realize how ridiculous that is?

Maybe it would be better just comment on drivers and teams instead of bashing other members? If you are not just a troll, that is...

[janneppi]

There are no problems with the car.
As there were no problems with the McLaren (although FA was beaten by NH).
Both KR and FA couldn't find the best setup for their cars, that's all, nothing to fix.

No mechanical problems, but if a driver can't get enough out of the car because he hasn't found the right setup, then it's a problem which needs fixing, no?
Or are suggesting that Kimi lies in his interviews when he has said he isn't happy how the car works in quali or in the first lap?

[F1boat]

Massa is great when he is running in front and doesn't have to race anyone. He is a very fast driver.

Today he was hunted, it was not like in Turkey or Brazil. And he still won.

[EuroTroll]

Or are suggesting that Kimi lies in his interviews when he has said he isn't happy how the car works in quali or in the first lap?

Well, didn't Kimi lie about his Ferrari contract for a very-very long time? Can we trust what he says at all, anymore? :p :

[Juppe]

Well, didn't Kimi lie about his Ferrari contract for a very-very long time? Can we trust what he says at all, anymore? :p :

That may be, but I am not sure. If you believe BusinessF1, then kimi didn't lie, but if you believe Luca di Montezemolo, he lied.

It would be nice to know one day, what happened really behind the scenes.

As for Kimi's racing in Bahrain - it was a bit lacklustre. He clearly isn't getting the most out of his equipment and the new tires seem to hurt him more than Massa for example. He still cannot setup the car for his liking.

If he wants to challenge for the championship he needs to improve especially his quali pace fast.

The interesting thing is that Fernando seems to be facing similar problems in McLaren, which makes the WDC prospects very interesting.

[ioan]

No mechanical problems, but if a driver can't get enough out of the car because he hasn't found the right setup, then it's a problem which needs fixing, no?

Yep, the driver will have to work harder and harder, the way a certain Felipe does.
Don't forget, the driver who develops the car is the one who will get most of the benefits from it.
So, get working Kimi!


Or are suggesting that Kimi lies in his interviews when he has said he isn't happy how the car works in quali or in the first lap?

I'm not the guessing and suggesting type.

[jas123f1]

Massa made a perfect race and looking how the race was going on, we can say that it was the best result also for Kimi. I think there was too much sand on the track which made overtaking too hazardous, so every one with points was taking it easy and saving their engines to Europe. Now there are 3 drivers with 22 points, Massa is only 5 points and Quick Nick only 7 points behind and every one are happy.

After all - went those 3 first races much better for Kimi than however I was thinking before season start.

Congratulations to Massa – nice drive :up:

[Shalafi]

Well, Kimi said that they have a problem but they know what that problem is and they are trying to correct it in next tests. And Im sure they do. :)

Remember that even in Oz after qualifying where he was a much quicker than anyone, he wasnt happy with the car. Only time when the car has behaved the way he wanted to, was in that race in Oz...then he said that car was perfect. And result for that was that Kimi made over a second faster laptime than anyone else. When they get those problems addressed and Kimi is happy with his car in quali and in the race, all Garrys and ioans in this world are facing a big surprise... ;)

[jas123f1]

Don't really know, as I already stated I do have a problem with Kimi fans, they are worse than MS fans by a light year.
They can't even acknowledge that he might have a bad week end.
How do you want them to appreciate whatever when he isn't the absolute star?

I will however support the guy because he is fast and a Ferrari driver.

If you have "a problem with Kimi fans" it depends probably only on yout thinking. :)

Nobody can have "a problem” with so many people and same time think that "it’s because of them".
Calm down and take a :beer: instead :D :

[wmcot]

Put him in a Toyota and he will be just a nobody.

Of course, that goes for anybody else, too! Could you imagine FA and KR in Toyotas?

[wmcot]

As for Kimi's racing in Bahrain - it was a bit lacklustre. He clearly isn't getting the most out of his equipment and the new tires seem to hurt him more than Massa for example. He still cannot setup the car for his liking.

If he wants to challenge for the championship he needs to improve especially his quali pace fast.

I'm not sure that this problem isn't a result of Kimi not being the best driver to set up a car. Everyone knows that he is blindingly fast in a good car, but he is not that great at developing and setting the car up. I would suspect that's why Massa did so much of the early testing this season.

[ArrowsFA1]

An interesting fact - taking an average of the fastest lap recorded in the race over all rounds of the season Kimi is 0.5s a lap quicker than Felipe so far (source Autosport (http://www.autosport.com)).

[wmcot]

An interesting fact - taking an average of the fastest lap recorded in the race over all rounds of the season Kimi is 0.5s a lap quicker than Felipe so far (source Autosport (http://www.autosport.com)).

But that doesn't necessarily win races though.

[ioan]

An interesting fact - taking an average of the fastest lap recorded in the race over all rounds of the season Kimi is 0.5s a lap quicker than Felipe so far (source Autosport (http://www.autosport.com)).

Let's wait for Kimi to start at the end of the grid (hope it won't happen though) and than try averaging fastest lap times. I think people try to read to much into 3 race results, when there are another 14 to be run.

[spudrsca]

An interesting fact - taking an average of the fastest lap recorded in the race over all rounds of the season Kimi is 0.5s a lap quicker than Felipe so far (source Autosport (http://www.autosport.com)).


Well, it's easy to be 0.5 s a lap quicker in average if you look that at the first race.
Massa drive in Australia 1s slower a lap because he was behind slower cars the entire race.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think people try to read to much into 3 race results, when there are another 14 to be run.
Which is exactly why I said "so far".

Fastest laps indicate the ultimate pace of a car/driver combination during a race, and to date the facts back up the general view that Kimi is one of, if not the, fastest driver on the grid.

Of course speed alone does not win races & WDC's (see Nico at Bahrain last year ;) ) - better finishing positions do that (Kimi leads Felipe there as well).

As more races go by those who see Felipe as a better driver than Kimi will be hoping for the the gap to close, because while excuses such as "behind slower cars" may be valid now, things have a way of balancing out over the whole of the season.

[jas123f1]

Massa is great when he is running in front and doesn't have to race anyone. He is a very fast driver. But is racing abilities in malaysia left something to be desired - he is not a good racer. Put him in a Toyota and he will be just a nobody.

I think he understood all the criticism after Malaysia on right way and agreed that he made mistakes which are not allowed in the future. That means - he is not a “blockhead” without being able to think in right way. If he can be a bit cooler on the track when something unexpected happen, then he even can be a possible title challenger. His behaviour after Malaysia impressed however me as much that i don’t like to count him away yet. :)

[Dzeidzei]

Well, it's easy to be 0.5 s a lap quicker in average if you look that at the first race.
Massa drive in Australia 1s slower a lap because he was behind slower cars the entire race.

The entire race? You mean he didnt have ANY phase of the Mel gp where he had an open track?

I find that hard to believe.

[raphael123]

I said he didnt drive with little fuel AND fresh tyres...also you cant make any assumptions based on winter testing...they were driving different programs, Kimi was adapting to Ferrari using old Ferrari parts while Massa got new parts first.

In Australia its stupid and blind to even try to defend Massa because they were in a different level completely

As for last race, I rather believe Keke Rosberg who says what he thinks. He said that Kimi done a helluva job in there. He also said that reducing the engine ment a lot more than a tenth of a second. Todt just didnt want to tell the truth because it would sound stupid that it was much more because then they would be benefited of changing the engine. But Ferrari underestimated McLarens speed and that was the mistake. They thought that Ferrari would be faster than Macs even reducing engine considerably because of the time difference that was in Oz. They didnt want to risk Kimi starting from 11th because that is always a risk.

And finally...this weekend you can again see why Kimi is faster than Massa. There is so many ways to look at the tests and everything...but only thing that matters is the points table...you will see the difference there between Kimi and Massa growing and growing as the year progresses... :) And when that happens, there is no buts and excuses left, even for the blindest Massa fans. Although like in case with Kimi vs JPM, you can never tell with some people... ;)

Ok, so let's ignore the winter tests, and Oz, because winter tests they do different jobs, and in Oz apart from Friday, they were in different worlds (though on friday Massa was quicker when they were in the same boat :D ).

Malaysia, as I've pointed out, Massa was the quicker driver. But stuffed up. However if your arguement is based on 'Jean Todt is lying' and that a driver back in the 70's 'knows what he's talking about' - I really can't argue. All we can use is the facts we have, and the comments made by people who know what was going on. Jean Todt stated it was costing Kimi 0.1s, I tend to think he'll know the situation better than Mr Keke Rosberg.

Basing your arguement on the fact that Jean Todt lied, you could make any arguement with the basis on 'well he's lying' :S

Then once again, in Bahrain we saw Massa was the quicker driver.

Before I finish, I just want to point out that I don't rate Massa higher than Kimi - not at all!! As you say, the points is all that matters at the end of the day. All I'm pointing out is that, even though Kimi has been more consistent, Garry Walker (unfortunately) was correct when he said Massa had been the quicker of the two since Kimi had joined Ferrari. That is fact rather than opinion.

[raphael123]

Of course it is great. But when Kimi is not happy with his car and has difficulties because it doesnt fit at all to his driving (specially in a quali but in race too), Im not happy either. If the car is great and setup is like he wants to be, he would say that even if he loses and then I would have no complaints also. ;) Hopefully they can solve problems for next race and Kimi can really show what he can do with Ferrari. :)

Why was that not accepted as a reason for Montoya?

Everyone knew that the 2005 car was not to Montoya's liking, and by the 2nd half of the season, after settling in, and starting to overcome his injury, the car wasn't to his liking, but he was matching and beating Kimi at most races.

I think if people weren't prepared to accept that as an excuse for Montoya, then that shouldn't be a valid excuse for Kimi.

My personal take on it is once Kimi adapts to the team and the car he shall have the upperhand over Massa, however not by too much of a gap. I think Montoya would have been more than a match for Kimi if the car had suited him. Unfortunately they had complete opposite suits of driving, so that was never going to happen. If Kimi came to Williams, I'm sure JPM would have had the upperhand. In the same way that if Massa joined McLaren, and KR was still there, Kimi would have the upperhand.

[raphael123]

The entire race? You mean he didnt have ANY phase of the Mel gp where he had an open track?

I find that hard to believe.

Come on, I would rather Kimi in my team than Massa. However it's unfair and completely unrealistic to expect Massa to have lapped a similar timed lap in the race to Kimi. Kimi was out infront all race with no slower cars, and the ultimate set up. Massa qualified at the back on a high fuel load to start the race, behind slower cars, with a car set up to overtake rather than ultimate pace over the course of a lap.

What if you take the fastest lap of Malaysia and Bahrain, which would be much more valid. What's the result then? Even then, fastest lap doesn't mean too much. You can see that from Malaysia - Hamilton had fastest lap, but Alonso was clearly the quicker of the two. Hamilton put in some good laps in the second stint, but Alonso was to be quite frank looked as though he had another gear!

[Shalafi]

Why was that not accepted as a reason for Montoya?

Everyone knew that the 2005 car was not to Montoya's liking, and by the 2nd half of the season, after settling in, and starting to overcome his injury, the car wasn't to his liking, but he was matching and beating Kimi at most races.

I think if people weren't prepared to accept that as an excuse for Montoya, then that shouldn't be a valid excuse for Kimi.

My personal take on it is once Kimi adapts to the team and the car he shall have the upperhand over Massa, however not by too much of a gap. I think Montoya would have been more than a match for Kimi if the car had suited him. Unfortunately they had complete opposite suits of driving, so that was never going to happen. If Kimi came to Williams, I'm sure JPM would have had the upperhand. In the same way that if Massa joined McLaren, and KR was still there, Kimi would have the upperhand.

I wont even start with any Montoya-discussion, it has discussed so many times already. As for Kimi, when he says that they have a problem but they know what that problem is and will correct that, I believe him. IF, however, after 3-4 European races Massa is quicker than Kimi, I will be first to admit that I have underestimated Massa and overestimated Kimi over the years. However, for the time being, Im sure they will resolve the problem and in next 1-3 races Kimi will start dominating Massa both in qualifying and in the race. Interesting to see what will happen.

[Juppe]

Why was that not accepted as a reason for Montoya?

Everyone knew that the 2005 car was not to Montoya's liking, and by the 2nd half of the season, after settling in, and starting to overcome his injury, the car wasn't to his liking, but he was matching and beating Kimi at most races.


This is a popular myth, which is not supported by actual race results...



I think if people weren't prepared to accept that as an excuse for Montoya, then that shouldn't be a valid excuse for Kimi.

My personal take on it is once Kimi adapts to the team and the car he shall have the upperhand over Massa, however not by too much of a gap. I think Montoya would have been more than a match for Kimi if the car had suited him. Unfortunately they had complete opposite suits of driving, so that was never going to happen. If Kimi came to Williams, I'm sure JPM would have had the upperhand. In the same way that if Massa joined McLaren, and KR was still there, Kimi would have the upperhand.

Kimi's newness to the team may be used as an excuse in the first races, but now that three races are behind us Kimi needs to improve his game. It is up to him and his engineers to find the best package for Kimi.

Kimi would need more testing, but the next test is scheduled so that Massa drives for two days and Kimi only one day, which is not in Kimi's favour if Massa continues to test more.

[raphael123]

I wont even start with any Montoya-discussion, it has discussed so many times already. As for Kimi, when he says that they have a problem but they know what that problem is and will correct that, I believe him. IF, however, after 3-4 European races Massa is quicker than Kimi, I will be first to admit that I have underestimated Massa and overestimated Kimi over the years. However, for the time being, Im sure they will resolve the problem and in next 1-3 races Kimi will start dominating Massa both in qualifying and in the race. Interesting to see what will happen.

I'd have to agree with you. We're too early into the year to be able to say 'well Kimi has had enough time to get use to a new car/team etc'. 3 races really is still relatively short time to a new team.

Assessing it after a few more races shall give us a better picture.

[raphael123]

This is a popular myth, which is not supported by actual race results...



As I've said in previous discussions, stats only give you 50% of the picture.
If all you care about is stats, then don't bother watching the races, just check out the results.

A perfect example is this weekend. I'd say DC had a GREAT weekend this weekend in terms of performance. But if you look at the 'actual race results', he qualified in 21st, and had a DNF. That doesn't say much does it.

As I said, Montoya's performances in the 2nd half of the season, he tended to match Kimi, and sometimes beat him.



Kimi's newness to the team may be used as an excuse in the first races, but now that three races are behind us Kimi needs to improve his game. It is up to him and his engineers to find the best package for Kimi.

Kimi would need more testing, but the next test is scheduled so that Massa drives for two days and Kimi only one day, which is not in Kimi's favour if Massa continues to test more.

3 races is still not enough. I'd say wait for the 2nd half of the season before making a judgement. Let's not forget, he's up against Massa, who new to the team was pretty damn close to the 7 x WC, and even managed to beat him a few times. So Kimi, new to the team isn't racing against some mediocre driver like Trulli, or Ralf, or Rubens!

Next year, when the car is designed with input from Kimi aswell as Massa we should get a very clear indication :)

[rabf1]

Kimi has a big problem. He isn't as fast as Massa. It was supposed to be the other way around. Ferrari signed Kimi because they thought he was the best driver in F1. The best driver in F1 should not need a lot of time to adjust to the best car in F1 and should definitely be quicker than a #2 like Massa. Kimi needs to pick up the pace.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi has a big problem. He isn't as fast as Massa.
Where are the facts to back this opinion up :confused:

[rlenis]

This is a popular myth, which is not supported by actual race results....

why is it a myth when Montoya said it himself? If we categorized by myths everything a drivers says then Kimi is has been lying lately about his car.



Kimi's newness to the team may be used as an excuse in the first races, but now that three races are behind us Kimi needs to improve his game. It is up to him and his engineers to find the best package for Kimi.

Kimi would need more testing, but the next test is scheduled so that Massa drives for two days and Kimi only one day, which is not in Kimi's favour if Massa continues to test more.

Experience is the key. It all depends in how long is it going take Kimi and his engineer to gain that expereince and perfect setup.

[rlenis]

Where are the facts to back this opinion up :confused:

Qualifying is 2-0 Massa- Kimi in Q3.

[ArrowsFA1]

Qualifying is 2-0 Massa- Kimi in Q3.
That's more like it :up: I do think that fastest race laps are a better indication of a drivers ultimate pace, and there's also the element of strategy when it comes to Q3, but when given a problem free qualifying session Massa is certainly up there with Kimi.

That doesn't alter my view that Kimi will outrace Massa over the course of the season, but there's plenty of time for that opinion to be proved wrong.

There are big differences between Ferrari's two drivers. Felipe seems to need all available support from the Ferrari "family" to perform at his best. I have the sense (just an opinion again!) that without that support and direction he'd be lost. Whereas Kimi doesn't need anyone. He just needs a quick reliable car. If he gets that, and he did in Australia, the "family" will have a tough time managing Felipe's confidence.

[tintop]

As I said, Montoya's performances in the 2nd half of the season, he tended to match Kimi, and sometimes beat him.

That was really exciting - they were definitely at the same level after JPM's first race back from injury, not too bad for Monty's first year in the car. Of course, JPM didn't seem to be able to keep up the fight in 2006 - he certainly never had the single mindedness and dedication to F1 that Kimi has, but to suggest that he didn't have similar talent is nonsensical IMO.

[Valve Bounce]

Today he was hunted, it was not like in Turkey or Brazil. And he still won.

I don't remember him having to fight wheel to wheel with anyone, but them I ws looking towards the middle of the field trying to find out how ant was doing. I must have missed Massa's hunting expedition!! Were the hunters close enough to get a shot at him?

[Ranger]

I don't remember him having to fight wheel to wheel with anyone, but them I ws looking towards the middle of the field trying to find out how ant was doing. I must have missed Massa's hunting expedition!! Were the hunters close enough to get a shot at him?

Massa was about 1 to 2 seconds ahead of Hamilton before the pit-stops and the McLaren's subsequent dislike of the soft compound tyres.

[Valve Bounce]

Massa was about 1 to 2 seconds ahead of Hamilton before the pit-stops and the McLaren's subsequent dislike of the soft compound tyres.


Well, yeah!! that was close. He did well not to run off the track!! :D

[Juppe]

Mario Almondo was quoted saying by Finnish Turun sanomat, that Kimi's problem with Ferrari is the sliding front end. Kimi would prefer a car with a more exact steering response, whereas Massa's driving style is not hurt by the sliding front end.

Therefore, they are planning to design a new front wing to Kimi to make the car response Kimi's way.

We'll see, how they will succeed...

[Shalafi]

Mario Almondo was quoted saying by Finnish Turun sanomat, that Kimi's problem with Ferrari is the sliding front end. Kimi would prefer a car with a more exact steering response, whereas Massa's driving style is not hurt by the sliding front end.

Therefore, they are planning to design a new front wing to Kimi to make the car response Kimi's way.

We'll see, how they will succeed...

Finally an explanation that I have been waiting for. Thanks Juppe! Soon we can finally see Kimi that we used to see, a fastest driver in F1! :)

[Valve Bounce]

ditto!!

[ioan]

Mario Almondo was quoted saying by Finnish Turun sanomat, that Kimi's problem with Ferrari is the sliding front end. Kimi would prefer a car with a more exact steering response, whereas Massa's driving style is not hurt by the sliding front end.

Therefore, they are planning to design a new front wing to Kimi to make the car response Kimi's way.

We'll see, how they will succeed...

You mean that Felipe can manage a sliding front end but Kimi can't? I must say this Felipe is looking to be a very fine driver than.

[ArrowsFA1]

You mean that Felipe can manage a sliding front end but Kimi can't?
No. Read again.
Kimi would prefer a car with a more exact steering response, whereas Massa's driving style is not hurt by the sliding front end.

[ioan]

No. Read again.

OK Felipe can handle better than Kimi a not perfect car! Way to go Felipe!

Happy now?! :D

[leopard]

That the ideal driver, as commented by Peter Sauber, should be someone who dedicated most of his time all-together with the team developing the car. I am afraid of Massa, has better know-how about Ferrari because he has been spending his time more than the rest. :)

Kimi is supposedly better than Massa, at any rate. He just can't convince me as yet that he is better; we may need to see this two driver’s reliability in more races to go. They maybe only have a shade difference one of which is the better.

[janneppi]

OK Felipe can handle better than Kimi a not perfect car! Way to go Felipe!

Happy now?! :D

Well, no. :) Massa prefers more understeery while Kimi prefers more oversteery. :)

[ioan]

Well, no. :) Massa prefers more understeery while Kimi prefers more oversteery. :)

That's not what Juppe quoted. ;)

[janneppi]

That's not what Juppe quoted. ;)

Juppe left out

- Felipe Massalle ei auton etuosan liukastelu ole yhtä iso haitta kuin Kimille.
Hänelle on vain eduksi, kun se vähän heittelehtii, tekninen johtaja Mario Almondo selvitti Auto Sprint -lehdessä.

- Bahrainissa yliohjautuminen loppui ensimmäisellä varikkokäynnillä, kun
muutimme Felipen etusiiven aerodynamiikkaa. Sen jälkeen auto toimi juuri kuten hän halusikin.Which translates rouhly as :

Felipe isn't hindered as much when front skids, it even works works with his driving style, said Almodo to Autosprint-magazine
In Bahrain oversteering stopped after first pit stop when we changed front wing setup,
after that the car worked just as Felipe wanted

[Juppe]

That's not what Juppe quoted. ;)

http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:35:0:0:0;4:36:0:0:0;4:34:566:1: 2007-04-17,104:34:452698,1:0:0:0:0:0:

"- Felipe Massalle ei auton etuosan liukastelu ole yhtä iso haitta kuin Kimille. Hänelle on vain eduksi, kun se vähän heittelehtii, tekninen johtaja Mario Almondo selvitti Auto Sprint -lehdessä."

I should have been more exact, but the from word to word the transaltion about Massa is:

"To Felipe Massa the sliding of car front end is not as big disadvantage as it is to Kimi. To him it is beneficial when it a little bit tosses around."

So you could translate it that Massa actually prefers it the way it is, but that it is hurting Kimi.

[ioan]

http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:35:0:0:0;4:36:0:0:0;4:34:566:1: 2007-04-17,104:34:452698,1:0:0:0:0:0:

"- Felipe Massalle ei auton etuosan liukastelu ole yhtä iso haitta kuin Kimille. Hänelle on vain eduksi, kun se vähän heittelehtii, tekninen johtaja Mario Almondo selvitti Auto Sprint -lehdessä."

I should have been more exact, but the from word to word the transaltion about Massa is:

"To Felipe Massa the sliding of car front end is not as big disadvantage as it is to Kimi. To him it is beneficial when it a little bit tosses around."

So you could translate it that Massa actually prefers it the way it is, but that it is hurting Kimi.

If this is the precise translation than I suppose that Kimi is a bit at a disadvantage at the moment. But I can't hide my surprise about this, we all thought he isn't that much dependent on this kind of things.
I always thought that oversteer and understeer can be obtained varying the setup of the car.
Given that he was one of the fastest through the speed traps I think that Kimi could have used a bit more front wing to make the car 's front more stable.
Let's wait and see what happens later in the season.

[Valve Bounce]

If this is the precise translation than I suppose that Kimi is a bit at a disadvantage at the moment. But I can't hide my surprise about this, we all thought he isn't that much dependent on this kind of things.
I always thought that oversteer and understeer can be obtained varying the setup of the car.
Given that he was one of the fastest through the speed traps I think that Kimi could have used a bit more front wing to make the car 's front more stable.
Let's wait and see what happens later in the season.


ioan, try to understand the issues here: the two drivers' driving style are different, and the current handling characteristis are more favourable to Massa's driving style; however, somebody did post that Ferrari will solve this with a different wing for Kimi.

The above, in no way, indicates how one driver is better than the other.

Gee!! I hate being serious - no fun :(

[Robinho]

If this is the precise translation than I suppose that Kimi is a bit at a disadvantage at the moment. But I can't hide my surprise about this, we all thought he isn't that much dependent on this kind of things.
I always thought that oversteer and understeer can be obtained varying the setup of the car.
Given that he was one of the fastest through the speed traps I think that Kimi could have used a bit more front wing to make the car 's front more stable.
Let's wait and see what happens later in the season.

he obviously isn't that dependent on this kind of thing. if he is, as inferred, a little disadvantage by the car not suiting his driving style, he's still joint top of the WDC, has won his first race and generally been among the top 4 fastest at each race so far. so you could say he's doing an exceptional job in a car that doesn't entirely suit him, and if he was in a car suited to his optimimum performance he might be doing even better.

of course i'm only playing Devils advocate.

from the description given by Almondo it would appear that Massa is able to drive to his optimum in the current car, whilst Kimi feels he might be faster in a car with slightly different characteristics. this would appar to be borne out by the nature of the first 3 races, ultimatley i don't think either driver will be far off the optimum the car can perform at if they both are comfortable with the handling.

if this is the case then the difference will be in race craft, ability cope with pressure and consistency at the optimum. and i would favour Kimi for that at the moment, whilst the ultimate pace of both drivers on one lap or for the bast ;ap would be likely to remain very similar

[F1boat]

Wasn't that the veryu same difference between Kimi and Montoya's style?

[Robinho]

and Alonso's and Fisi's,

and seemingly Alsonso's and Hamiltons, seeing the way Hamilton throws the cars about and likes it tail haoppey and Alsono was renowned during the Renault days for liking a understeery car.

personally i think it might be more the fact that the Renault was understeery due to its rearward weight distribution, which helped its fast starts, and Alonso was purely better at adapting to that style and made it work, rather than preferring that style, buts thats just conjecture on my part

[F1boat]

Thanks for the info :)

[tintop]

Wasn't that the veryu same difference between Kimi and Montoya's style?

Exactly. It took Montoya a number of races to get used to the Mclaren's corner entry push - and he was never 100% comfortable. It is probably the single most important element of a car's feel from a driver's perspective. This is obviously what they were addressing in the article above, despite suggestions to the contrary.

[Roamy]

interesting stuff. If massa is quick with a understeer car it is impressive because to be fast you need to rotate the car into the corner and collect it with power. definetly a fast way to drive. But loss of control is usually the downside. However a oversteer car may be faster in the right hands because when you are really on you just have to stick the car with power as it turns itself into the corner. perfect balance is probably a car at 98% and very difficult to drive 110% if needed. That is why a end to TC will be very good for us the fans.

[rlenis]

That was really exciting - they were definitely at the same level after JPM's first race back from injury, not too bad for Monty's first year in the car. Of course, JPM didn't seem to be able to keep up the fight in 2006 - he certainly never had the single mindedness and dedication to F1 that Kimi has, but to suggest that he didn't have similar talent is nonsensical IMO.

Montoya's problem in 2006 was that he committed too many driver errors.
In Bahrain he had engine mapping problems,
in Malaysia we cannot really compare his race performance with Kimi because Kimi was wrecked in the first lap. However Montoya outqualified him there.
In Australia they had about the same pace, and his race was ruined when he crashed. Montoya was actually faster at some point when Kimi had the nose problem.
In San Marino, he beat Kimi fair and square (Q and race) and Felipe Massa for the last podium spot in the faster Ferrari.
At the European race he was outpaced by Kimi in both race and Q even though Montoya suffered a mechanical failure.
Barcelona, Montoya spun.
In Monaco he was again outpaced by Kimi, but my interpretation was that he did not push 100% (see what happened to Kimi for following Alonso that close for so many laps).
Silverstone - Kimi beat him
Canada and US he crashed.
I think that had Montoya continued he would have beaten Kimi in some of the remaining races. All of Montoya's favorite tracks are schedule for the second half of the season (Monza, Brazil, Hungary, Germany)

[Andy65]

Kimi has always said he likes the car to oversteer so he can catch it mid corner and control the car that way, but hates understeer, but I also feel this is being made worse by runing heavy with fuel, at the first race he ran light raced from the front at the pace he wanted to go at, it would have been interesting to see how the last race would have gone had Kmi and Massa run with about the same fuel, stopping Kimi one lap before of after Massas Pit stop, just a thought,

[wedge]

Well both Massa and Kimi like a car with good turn in.

Massa probably prefers a neutral car - good at turn in but stable at entry/under braking. He's never been know for great car control and he seemed to be having a problem last year of hanging on to the rear end under braking.

Kimi, I suspect, thinks he can get more out of the car by carrying the extra speed with the rear sliding plus the fact that Kimi enjoys braking very deep in low speed corners.

[wedge]

Well both Massa and Kimi like a car with good turn in.

Massa probably prefers a neutral car - good at turn in but stable at entry/under braking. He's never been know for great car control and he seemed to be having a problem last year of hanging on to the rear end under braking.

Kimi, I suspect, thinks he can get more out of the car by carrying the extra speed with the rear sliding plus the fact that Kimi enjoys braking very deep in low speed corners.

[Garry Walker]

Why was that not accepted as a reason for Montoya?

Everyone knew that the 2005 car was not to Montoya's liking, and by the 2nd half of the season, after settling in, and starting to overcome his injury, the car wasn't to his liking, but he was matching and beating Kimi at most races.

McLaren did as much as humanly possible to make the car to JPMs liking, he liked it a lot, but Kimi was faster.
In the 2nd half of 2005, Kimi was faster in most races easily.



My personal take on it is once Kimi adapts to the team and the car he shall have the upperhand over Massa, however not by too much of a gap. I think Montoya would have been more than a match for Kimi if the car had suited him. Unfortunately they had complete opposite suits of driving, so that was never going to happen. If Kimi came to Williams, I'm sure JPM would have had the upperhand. In the same way that if Massa joined McLaren, and KR was still there, Kimi would have the upperhand.
If Kimi had joined Williams, do you think Ralf would have beaten him there?



why is it a myth when Montoya said it himself? If we categorized by myths everything a drivers says then Kimi is has been lying lately about his car.
Montoya has said a lot of things. He is one driver whose words could never be taken very seriously





In Australia they had about the same pace, and his race was ruined when he crashed. Montoya was actually faster at some point when Kimi had the nose problem. He was only faster when Kimi had a problem, otherwise he was clearly slower.



In Monaco he was again outpaced by Kimi, but my interpretation was that he did not push 100% (see what happened to Kimi for following Alonso that close for so many laps).

Montoya was pushing all the way yes, but he was simply far slower than KR. Kimis retirement was caused by the SC, not by him being close to Alonso for a long time.



All of Montoya's favorite tracks are schedule for the second half of the season (Monza, Brazil, Hungary, Germany) Since when is JPMs fav track HUNGARY???
If we go by 2005, then Kimi was clearly quicker at Monza, Hungary and Hockhenheim out of those 4 races you mentioned, with Brazil being the only race he and JPM were equal

[ArrowsFA1]

The thread subject is Massa vs Kimi, not Montoya vs Kimi.

[Laura_KIMI]

well, now massa is behind kimi, but i think both r in the same posibilities to win the championship

[leopard]

Yeah, they have an almost fifty fifty possibilities. Kimi gained more popularity from his classic fans for constantly challenging when he was racing for McLaren, while this is just the first season for Massa being himself. Time will tell you.

Btw this reminds me to Ray Peterson lyrics:

"He drove his car to the racing grounds
He was the youngest driver there
The crowed roared as they started the race
Around the track they drove at a deadly pace
...
Tell Laura I love her"

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, they have an almost fifty fifty possibilities. Kimi gained more popularity from his classic fans for constantly challenging when he was racing for McLaren, while this is just the first season for Massa being himself. Time will tell you.

Btw this reminds me to Ray Peterson lyrics:

"He drove his car to the racing grounds
He was the youngest driver there
The crowed roared as they started the race
Around the track they drove at a deadly pace
...
Tell Laura I love her"

Oh Noooooooooooo! that was a really soupy tear jerker! I heard it last month in Italy, would you believe.

[raphael123]

I think if Kimi can never get to grips with Massa's pace, we have severely over-rated how good Kimi is, or under-rated Massa!

We all know Kimi is a talent, like we knew in 04 that JPM was a talent. However they all need time to adapt to the car, and the team. Sometimes it'll take an entire year till next seasons car, where the driver has had an input to have a car which suits them.

However there must be huge pressure on Kimi to start beating Massa on pace, when Kimi is on a reported $30m compared to Massa's $5m! I'll be surprised if Kimi doens't get on top of MAsssa

[leopard]

Oh Noooooooooooo! that was a really soupy tear jerker! I heard it last month in Italy, would you believe.
heheh, I think he (preferably she) would more believe me.

Sorry Arrow this might be OOT, i just realized that this song also have passion about racing.

Now back to topic, carry on

[ShiftingGears]

I think if Kimi can never get to grips with Massa's pace, we have severely over-rated how good Kimi is, or under-rated Massa!

We all know Kimi is a talent, like we knew in 04 that JPM was a talent. However they all need time to adapt to the car, and the team. Sometimes it'll take an entire year till next seasons car, where the driver has had an input to have a car which suits them.

However there must be huge pressure on Kimi to start beating Massa on pace, when Kimi is on a reported $30m compared to Massa's $5m! I'll be surprised if Kimi doens't get on top of MAsssa


Take note that the high price is a result of Ferrari wanting Kimi to NOT drive for McLaren this year as well. Teams will always spend more money on a Top-Drawer driver who is being eyed by other teams rather than a driver that they already have.

Also, on the topic of pressure, I can't say I've ever seen Kimi looking like any pressure gets to him, ever. He always looks so calm and collected (except when standing on boats)

[raphael123]

Take note that the high price is a result of Ferrari wanting Kimi to NOT drive for McLaren this year as well. Teams will always spend more money on a Top-Drawer driver who is being eyed by other teams rather than a driver that they already have.

Also, on the topic of pressure, I can't say I've ever seen Kimi looking like any pressure gets to him, ever. He always looks so calm and collected (except when standing on boats)

I agree, he doesn't seem affected by pressure really does he. However that doesn't mean the pressure isn't there - it most definately is!

When your team-mate on 1/6 of your wage is quicker than you (we can't say he's doing a better job as he has less points!), it puts pressure on you to up your performance. If after a couple of races Massa overtakes Kimi in the point standings, Ferrari and the F1 paddock will defiantely start talking about it! We've already heard them mention the pay gap difference when Massa took pole in Malaysia. I wonder if Massa can keep up his good performances when he's not on pole, and has cars infront of him and behind him, or when he hasn't got the best of cars. Afterall, he wasn't exactly spectacular at Saubers. He's only really started to shine since he joined Ferrari, and even then it was only after they clearly had a car advantage that he started showing real pace, and winning qualities. However you could say the same for Mika Hakkinen, and most people regard him as a damn good champion!

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe we should ask Ferrari to give Massa a pay rise.

[Ranger]

Maybe we should ask Ferrari to give Massa a pay rise.

Nah, I reckon he'd lose his motivation if we did that. :p :

[monsta_racer]

Kimi vs Massa is not really a question in my books. Kimi will make Massa look like a cab driver once he figues out the red machine and tires. If Ferrari keep up Kimi will be champion.

[ioan]

Kimi vs Massa is not really a question in my books. Kimi will make Massa look like a cab driver once he figues out the red machine and tires. If Ferrari keep up Kimi will be champion.

After thousands of testing kms and also 3 races it looks like Kimi isn't figuring out to much.

[ioan]

Sauber says that Kimi isn't very keen on the technology side of F1.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31230

This might be one aspect where he is trailing Felipe and might prove decisive in the championship.

[Juppe]

After thousands of testing kms and also 3 races it looks like Kimi isn't figuring out to much.

Well, he is still in the joint lead, isn't he?

Ferrari changed their plans and now Kimi will drive for the first two days of testing and Felipe the last day. Originally it was the other way around.

We will see in the next race, if he figured out something more or not.

[ioan]

Well, he is still in the joint lead, isn't he?

Ferrari changed their plans and now Kimi will drive for the first two days of testing and Felipe the last day. Originally it was the other way around.

We will see in the next race, if he figured out something more or not.

Let's say that given Peter Sauber's comments I would have preferred Felipe to do more development at this point in the season.

[raphael123]

Yes Ioan, your right :up:

Kimi urged to get Technical - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6589099.stm

[janneppi]

Let's say that given Peter Sauber's comments I would have preferred Felipe to do more development at this point in the season.

I don't think Massa needs as many kilometres with the car as Kimi, he's(FM) able to get enough out of the car as it is. Kimi on the other hand get's a new front wing that changes how the car behaves an it needs to be properly tested before Spain.

[Juppe]

Let's say that given Peter Sauber's comments I would have preferred Felipe to do more development at this point in the season.

Let's say that Peter Sauber's knowledge about Kimi's abilities is a little bit outdated, don't you think?

Kimi drove for Sauber only one season straight from Formula Ford, so his technical knowledge of an F1 car could not be very elaborate.

On the other hand, Massa was known to be technically handicapped at Sauber - more so than Kimi - so I have no idea, if he is nowadays somehow the best possible testdriver available.

[ioan]

I don't think Massa needs as many kilometres with the car as Kimi, he's(FM) able to get enough out of the car as it is. Kimi on the other hand get's a new front wing that changes how the car behaves an it needs to be properly tested before Spain.

I was looking at it from the POV of developing the car further and faster compared to McLaren.
I think that the driver that is feeling more comfortable with the car is the one that can take it to a further level of competitiveness.
Kimi has to get to grips with the handling issues he has, so he can't help to much with the development side, at this stage.

[janneppi]

Fair enough, but that should be more of a reason to give Kimi more testing time, until he feels comfortable with the car, he can't give enough information to developement of the car,
two drivers being able to give meaningful input is better than one. Ferrari needs to think this beyond the next race.

[Shalafi]

Let's say that Peter Sauber's knowledge about Kimi's abilities is a little bit outdated, don't you think?

Kimi drove for Sauber only one season straight from Formula Ford, so his technical knowledge of an F1 car could not be very elaborate.

On the other hand, Massa was known to be technically handicapped at Sauber - more so than Kimi - so I have no idea, if he is nowadays somehow the best possible testdriver available.

Thats one thing I often laugh about. Saubers comments...and people here say that Sauber said that and that about Kimi. It was his first season, he was a very young man and everything was completely new for him in F1. He is a different driver now compared to that. In fact Kimi is a great car developer, like engineers say in Ferrari: http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/arkisto.shtml/arkistot/f1/2007/03/510454

Chris Dyer, who worked six years with MS, says: "Kimi gives very accurate information how the car behaves and he is also very good at spotting how changes will affect car. You cant ask more than that."

Engineer Andrea Stella:" He is a very intelligent and very talented. His car handling is amazing. There is a massive amount of potential with Kimi in Ferrari."

So I cant see that Kimi has problems developing the car... ;)

[ioan]

Fair enough, but that should be more of a reason to give Kimi more testing time, until he feels comfortable with the car, he can't give enough information to developement of the car,
two drivers being able to give meaningful input is better than one. Ferrari needs to think this beyond the next race.

The only problem with that is the testing restrictions for this season.

One of the most important things in F1 is to develop the car at a high rate.
I would say that for Kimi's talent a faster and almost perfectly handling car is a better bet than a slower perfectly handling one.

If I was to decide at Ferrari F1 I would have already adressed Kimi's handling problems on race week end Fridays. As they stand there was almost no significant aero up grade for their cars since the 1st race, which is a pity given that one of the drivers is complaining about handling problems.

[ioan]

Thats one thing I often laugh about. Saubers comments...and people here say that Sauber said that and that about Kimi. It was his first season, he was a very young man and everything was completely new for him in F1. He is a different driver now compared to that. In fact Kimi is a great car developer, like engineers say in Ferrari: http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/arkisto.shtml/arkistot/f1/2007/03/510454

Chris Dyer, who worked six years with MS, says: "Kimi gives very accurate information how the car behaves and he is also very good at spotting how changes will affect car. You cant ask more than that."

Engineer Andrea Stella:" He is a very intelligent and very talented. His car handling is amazing. There is a massive amount of potential with Kimi in Ferrari."

So I cant see that Kimi has problems developing the car... ;)

Thanks for the additional info. Good to see that! :up:

[Shalafi]

Thanks for the additional info. Good to see that! :up:

You're welcome! :)

[raphael123]

Though Peter Sauber's opinion of Kimi are now outdated, it's quite well known McLaren didn't rate Kimi's technical ability as one of his strengths. But as Peter Sauber has stated, it's not a weakness, but it's not a strength either. And you are hardly going to expect the Ferrari team to critizise his technical feedback are you?

Kimi is no Schumacher or Hill, or even DC when it comes to developing a car. There's no point in trying to say he is.

[janneppi]

The only problem with that is the testing restrictions for this season.

you mean Ferrari actually abides by some testing restrictions this year? :)
One of the most important things in F1 is to develop the car at a high rate.
I would say that for Kimi's talent a faster and almost perfectly handling car is a better bet than a slower perfectly handling one.

It might actually hurt Ferrari to essentially handicap Kimi if Massas awesome testing abilities ;) aren't suddenly enough against McLaren, or Massa is injured.
What makes you think Kimi would be slower with the new font end?
It won't hurt Massa since he doesn't use it.

[ioan]

It might actually hurt Ferrari to essentially handicap Kimi if Massas awesome testing abilities ;) aren't suddenly enough against McLaren, or Massa is injured.

My previous post was in no way against Kimi, please note that.
What I mean is that Massa, being at ease with the car's handling, could give better and more useful feedback about new parts aimed at making the car faster.

In the light of Shalafi's quotes Kimi is also a good developer but first he will have to address the handling problems he is experiencing, and only when he will feel 100% at ease with the car he will be in a good position to help with further development of the car.

I'm just trying to think about how could Ferrari further develop the car and extract more speed from the package while helping Kimi to find what is missing.


What makes you think Kimi would be slower with the new font end?
It won't hurt Massa since he doesn't use it.

I didn't say that!

[janneppi]

My previous post was in no way against Kimi, please note that.
What I mean is that Massa, being at ease with the car's handling, could give better and more useful feedback about new parts aimed at making the car faster.In essense, knowing that Ferrari will most likely test the new front wing for Kimi, you would rather hamper that effort to get two days of Massa input instead of one day?


[quote:1i8utv5u]
In the light of Shalafi's quotes Kimi is also a good developer but first he will have to address the handling problems he is experiencing, and only when he will feel 100% at ease with the car he will be in a good position to help with further development of the car.

I'm just trying to think about how could Ferrari further develop the car and extract more speed from the package while helping Kimi to find what is missing.[/quote:1i8utv5u] Again, to get Kimi on board and comfortable with the car, it's important to get the car working for him today, not in two months time.



[quote:1i8utv5u]I would say that for Kimi's talent a faster and almost perfectly handling car is a better bet than a slower perfectly handling one.

I didn't say that![/quote:1i8utv5u]

Yes you did, you would rather have Kimi driving the current setup which isn't working for him, because, in your words the new setup meant to correct the "flaw in Fefe", while better to drive, would be somehow slower.

[ioan]

Yes you did, you would rather have Kimi driving the current setup which isn't working for him, because, in your words the new setup meant to correct the "flaw in Fefe", while better to drive, would be somehow slower.

I said that I would rather have Kimi drive an even better developed and faster Ferrari with not perfect handling (which doesn't mean a bad one at all) than drive the Ferrari with the actual performance (not much faster than McLaren) with the best handling possible, and I also said that I think this because of his driver qualities!
That's what I said, and not what you implied using a somewhat bizare deduction technique.

What's the problem with you people?

[janneppi]

Ah, now i got what you meant.
You're still wrong assuming that Kimi would get more out of Massa's two days of testing vs his two days of testing with "his" wing. :)

As i, and you said yourself said, Kimi needs to be comfortable with the car to give better input. Yet now you don't seem want him to get comfortable with the car. Kimi's current problem with car is the front end, no amount of general fastness will help him enough unless that get's fixed.
Massa can't help that particular handling issue, since he needs a different kind of setup.

[jens]

If Massa didn't have that problem in Australia, he would have finished at least in second position and in that case both Ferrari drivers would have equal amount of points by now.

Massa is so much criticized for his Malaysia mistake, but in spite of that he didn't lose much to his team-mate at all - only 2 points. In Bahrain he gained it all back and even more (+4 points compared to Räikkönen), so basically with his clean run at Sakhir he compensated his error at Sepang and that's why we shouldn't continually jump into his throat for that unsuccessful overtaking manouver.

About Kimi's handling problems. Let's try not to jump into conclusions too early. Let's wait for the Spanish GP and see if anything has changed between Kimi and Felipe or not.

[ioan]

Ah, now i got what you meant.
You're still wrong assuming that Kimi would get more out of Massa's two days of testing vs his two days of testing with "his" wing. :)

As i, and you said yourself said, Kimi needs to be comfortable with the car to give better input. Yet now you don't seem want him to get comfortable with the car. Kimi's current problem with car is the front end, no amount of general fastness will help him enough unless that get's fixed.
Massa can't help that particular handling issue, since he needs a different kind of setup.

I understand your point about what Kimi needs at the moment. However I am first of all a Ferrari supporter and thus I only want to see the car developed further, no matter which driver is driving it for that, and at the moment Felipe is the one who is in the better position.
If Kimi would have been at ease with the car and Felipe had troubles I would go for Kimi to further develop the car.

it's always easier to be supporter of a team, you have 2 drivers to support not only one! ;)

[janneppi]

But your way of doing is hurting Ferrari's long term testing by limiting Kim's input on the car, unless you think that Kimi will never be of any use as a tester.

[ioan]

But your way of doing is hurting Ferrari's long term testing by limiting Kim's input on the car, unless you think that Kimi will never be of any use as a tester.

He has to catch up with them.
In F1 you can't wait while others are advancing. Ferrari already had no significant upgrades since the start of the season, it's time to move on before McLaren overtakes them.

[janneppi]

And how would Kimi ever catch up if you don't give him the time to test?
Ferrari understands that, why can't you? :p :

[ioan]

And how would Kimi ever catch up if you don't give him the time to test?
Ferrari understands that, why can't you? :p :

Oh my oh my, Kimi had 3 Fridays to test already, plus 3 Saturdays and 3 races only since the start of the season, not counting thousands of pre-season testing kilometers.
With the current testing restrictions I would go with the one that feels at ease with the car to develop it. That's all.

BTW it seems that Ferrari are expecting a 0.3 seconds/ lap improvement after the Barcelona test in order to stay ahead of McLaren.
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070427094701.shtml

Or maybe that is what McLaren will lose after the new FIA floor testing specifications released earlier this week?

[janneppi]

With the current testing restrictions I would go with the one that feels at ease with the car to develop it. That's all.



Even if that delays 50% of possible driver input?
If Kimi get's grips with the new front wing in the first day, Ferrari would get input from both drivers with the new improvements.
If Kimi were to test his win only on the last day, he (and Ferrari with him) would have limited use for the data Massa provides in two days.

[ArrowsFA1]

Former world champion Nelson Piquet believes Felipe Massa is the favourite of the Ferrari drivers to win this year's championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58388


Before the start of the championship I didn't know what the difference in speed was going to be between Massa and Raikkonen. Now I have no doubt: despite being behind in the points, Felipe Massa is the favourite for a very logical reason. It's simply that Massa is always faster in qualifying than Raikkonen..."

"It doesn't happen often for a driver to have a car as dominant as the Ferrari is at the moment. Massa must keep on doing what he's doing...Today the only driver in F1 that never makes mistakes and that makes the most of every chance is Fernando Alonso, but Massa is technically in the position to beat him..."

[ioan]

Even if that delays 50% of possible driver input?
If Kimi get's grips with the new front wing in the first day, Ferrari would get input from both drivers with the new improvements.
If Kimi were to test his win only on the last day, he (and Ferrari with him) would have limited use for the data Massa provides in two days.

They can't test both in the same time, so the input is limited anyway to what can be done in 3 days time, be it :
2 days Kimi + 1 day Felipe
1 days Kimi + 2 days Felipe
3 days Kimi
3 days Felipe

there is no difference for me as long as the input is the best they can get.

BTW Kimi is to test first, and as you said Felipe will not use the same wing so there might be little correlation between the data they both provide to the team.

Anyway, let's leave it at this level now and pick it up after we get the tests results.

[Valve Bounce]

In F1 you can't wait while others are advancing. Ferrari already had no significant upgrades since the start of the season, ............

Ioan, how do you know that? :confused: Don't tell me you have a mole in the Ferrari team.

[janneppi]

BTW Kimi is to test first, and as you said Felipe will not use the same wing so there might be little correlation between the data they both provide to the team.



Actually this way they have most reliable data, both get to test with their own, up to date setups. If Kimi used same wing as Massa, it would not tell the how new aero works with the new wing.
As long as Ferrari doesn't concentrate on just one car, they must test both cars, no?

[Valve Bounce]

Actually this way they have most reliable data, both get to test with their own, up to date setups. If Kimi used same wing as Massa, it would not tell the how new aero works with the new wing.
As long as Ferrari doesn't concentrate on just one car, they must test both cars, no?

Well, I'm hoping Ferrari knows how to carry out a test program by now. Otherwise they are in deep trouble. :p :

[ioan]

Actually this way they have most reliable data, both get to test with their own, up to date setups. If Kimi used same wing as Massa, it would not tell the how new aero works with the new wing.
As long as Ferrari doesn't concentrate on just one car, they must test both cars, no?

The way I see it they went for 2 days with Kimi exactly because they concentrate on both cars, as you say. Kimi will have 1 day for testing his new wing and a 2nd day for further improving the package.
Felipe will have one day to validate the improvements made by Kimi and work on further development if everything translates OK from one driver to the other.

[Garry Walker]

Sauber says that Kimi isn't very keen on the technology side of F1.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31230

This might be one aspect where he is trailing Felipe and might prove decisive in the championship.

To be fair to Kimi, when he had Kimi as his driver, KR had no experience at all. That also arent on very good terms, so his opinion isnt very credible.


Though Peter Sauber's opinion of Kimi are now outdated, it's quite well known McLaren didn't rate Kimi's technical ability as one of his strengths.

Actually they rated it pretty highly.

[raphael123]

Actually they rated it pretty highly.

I didn't say it was a weakness, but simply not a strength. Two completely different things.

Kimi isn't known for his technical abilities and love of hard work at test sessions for a reason.

[wmcot]

Let's not forget that Felipe was testing in December and January MUCH more than Kimi was (as he was not allowed by RD to test until January 1st) so Felipe was there all the way with the development of the car. Kimi came into it much later and has far less total testing time than Felipe.

Additionally, now that the racing has moved back to Europe, I expect to see upgrades and mods coming fast and furious!

I don't think 3 races are enough to judge the outcome of the season...let's be patient and see how everything plays out.

[leopard]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58388

I have much and less the same opinion before the season commenced, with Nilson's.

Alonso is undeniably driver with very minimum mistakes for the whole season, one of reason he can maintain the title consecutively, using a not too superior car and despite being doubted about his real SPEED.

Massa has the opposite, SPEED and more reliable car. He was more playing dark horse alongside Michael and his style driving wildly has impressed me much last season although it very often leads him to unnecessary mistakes.

Massa is technically in the position to beat Alonso, without irrespective of opportunity of another challenging drivers Kimi and Hamilton.

It is easier to teach driver to be smoother than to teach to be a fast driver. :)

[ioan]

He believes in Kimi's capabilities, but he is full of praise for Felipe.

"Felipe was very good at the end of last year and from what I understand he has progressed well over the winter," Brawn told Autosport magazine. "He is very strong opposition because he knows the tyres, he knows the car, he knows the team.

"Kimi is very quick, but he needs a bit more time to get to the same level as Felipe.

"When you get intelligent guys who work with the tyres, with the car and the team you are not going to step right in and operate at quite the same level. You will take a little time to come up to that.

"It's a fascinating battle and I think we'll see lots of ups and downs in that battle before the end of the year. It's a great start to the season."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58454

[raphael123]

Ross Brawn? You mean the man who has never worked alongside Kimi Raikkonen? :)
Though I do agree with him regarding Massa's end of season. More times than not he seemed to pretty much be a match for Michael Schumacher, and sometimes even a slight edge!

[ioan]

Ross Brawn? You mean the man who has never worked alongside Kimi Raikkonen? :)

I suppose he gets whatever info he wants, and whenever he wants, from the team.

[raphael123]

I suppose he gets whatever info he wants, and whenever he wants, from the team.

Yes, you go ahead and guess :)
My point sticks - Ross Brawn is an ex employee of Ferrari, commenting on a driver he has never worked with. His opinion on this matter is as valid as say e.g. Mike Gascoigne. And even less than Peter Saubers, who other people dismissed.

I'm not saying I disagree with Ross Brawn, just making a point :)

[ioan]

:rolleyes: Oh dear, someone is really sensible today! :p :

[Garry Walker]

Alonso is undeniably driver with very minimum mistakes for the whole season, one of reason he can maintain the title consecutively

He actually made quite many mistakes last year...

[race aficionado]

OK, I'm going to generalize here, and I repeate - generalize - but I think that many MS fans, those that witnessed the battles betweeen their main man Michael Vs Kimi in McLaren are not very keen about Kimi being in Ferrari and sudenly dominating.
They prefer Massa, an original Ferrari driver that fought against MS and lost most of the times against their #1.

MS will look better in the mind of many fans if Massa starts dominating in the Ferrari because it will show that not only their number 1 dominated but the number 2 can take over once The King was gone.

Kimi coming in and dominating will put emphasis in the Ferrari package, that is, get in the Ferrari car and you are suddenly winning - ergo: it's the car stupid!

any way . . . .

just shooting the breeze here . . . .


ps. How about that Hamilton, huh? :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

OK, I'm going to generalize here, and I repeate - generalize - but I think that many MS fans, those that witnessed the battles betweeen their main man Michael Vs Kimi in McLaren are not very keen about Kimi being in Ferrari and sudenly dominating.
They prefer Massa, an original Ferrari driver that fought against MS and lost most of the times against their #1.

MS will look better in the mind of many fans if Massa starts dominating in the Ferrari because it will show that not only their number 1 dominated but the number 2 can take over once The King was gone.

Kimi coming in and dominating will put emphasis in the Ferrari package, that is, get in the Ferrari car and you are suddenly winning - ergo: it's the car stupid!

any way . . . .

just shooting the breeze here . . . .


ps. How about that Hamilton, huh? :s mokin:

While I was in Italy, I spoke with several F1 fans, and I got up at 4.30 in the morning to watch the GP with them. They told me they didn't care which driver won as long as Ferrari won.

Then when I got to Singapore, there was an article about this Italian who lived in Malaysia who finally got to the GP and he even managed a pitpass and met SchM and he even posed with the guy next to a Ferrari. He said that standing next to SchM didn't really interest him all that much, he just wanted to touch the Ferrari.

This article was in the Singapore newspapers on the morning of the Bahrein GP, so guys who come from Singapore can verify that for me.

[race aficionado]

interesting Valve.
Also we have to note that there are:
* the Ferrrari Fans - those like the ones you just mentioned
* the Michael Schumacher fans - those that would follow him wherever he decided to go.
I'm a blatant JPM fan that will follow him wherever, but also am a Williams fan because I managed to learn to respect Sir Frank Williams. I didn't much care about Ron and the Mac team.
Any way, I still stand by my " generalizing" point concering the MS fans and their reaction to Kimi, who was Michael's nemesis just a year ago.

:s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

interesting Valve.
Also we have to note that there are:
* the Ferrrari Fans - those like the ones you just mentioned
* the Michael Schumacher fans - those that would follow him wherever he decided to go.
I'm a blatant JPM fan that will follow him wherever, but also am a Williams fan because I managed to learn to respect Sir Frank Williams. I didn't much care about Ron and the Mac team.
Any way, I still stand by my " generalizing" point concering the MS fans and their reaction to Kimi, who was Michael's nemesis just a year ago.

:s mokin:

I think that is a vry tenuous link you make between Kimi and Massa. I must admit I never thought of it in those terms. I did admire Massa's improvement when he won a couple of races, but this was seriously diminished when he showed his immaturity in his attempts at racing Lewis Hamilton.
I then drew my conclusion (an opinion) that Massa can perform well from the front of a race, but when he has to race other drivers from behind, then he really isn't that good. For example, put him back in the Red Bull or Torro Rosso and Massa would be Mr Nowhere, and probably pranging the car in the process.
Kimi, I found, was the opposite, being able to tiger and come from behind to beat opponents .
I still think that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1, and he has been for several years.

This will be a very interesting match up because we all wanted to see what Kimi can do in the Ferrari.
Of course, few dreamt that the McLaren would be so competitive this year, while the Renault suddenly falls behind.
If Massa bests Kimi this year, I will wear that on my sig for the next three years that he is the true champion.

[ioan]

I then drew my conclusion (an opinion) that Massa can perform well from the front of a race, but when he has to race other drivers from behind, then he really isn't that good. For example, put him back in the Red Bull or Torro Rosso and Massa would be Mr Nowhere, and probably pranging the car in the process.
Kimi, I found, was the opposite, being able to tiger and come from behind to beat opponents .
I still think that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1, and he has been for several years.

Felipe had good races at Sauber already before driving for Ferrari.
You might also miss the fact that Felipe came from dead last to 6th in Oz after mechanical troubles put an early end to his qualifying.
He also came from last to 5th last year in Sepang, beating MS in the process!

Kimi on the other hand drove most of his career in a top team and managed to come from the back to the front when driving the 2005 McLaren which was a very very fast car when didn't fall apart.
On the other hand he did nothing extraordinary this year in the Ferrari, he only won when starting first (like Felipe, and like Fernando after the perfect start).

I say Kimi and Felipe are almost the same level, really closely matched, with Felipe being the fastest and Kimi being the coolest of them.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, I stand corrected. Let's just see what happens this year.

[raphael123]

He actually made quite many mistakes last year...


Such as?

[raphael123]

OK, I'm going to generalize here, and I repeate - generalize - but I think that many MS fans, those that witnessed the battles betweeen their main man Michael Vs Kimi in McLaren are not very keen about Kimi being in Ferrari and sudenly dominating.
They prefer Massa, an original Ferrari driver that fought against MS and lost most of the times against their #1.

MS will look better in the mind of many fans if Massa starts dominating in the Ferrari because it will show that not only their number 1 dominated but the number 2 can take over once The King was gone.

Kimi coming in and dominating will put emphasis in the Ferrari package, that is, get in the Ferrari car and you are suddenly winning - ergo: it's the car stupid!

any way . . . .

just shooting the breeze here . . . .


ps. How about that Hamilton, huh? :s mokin:


I agree 100% with you.
I think it's more directed at MS fans rather than Ferrari fans. People who were ferrari fans before MS joined Ferrari support Ferrari, but those who become Ferrari fans during the Michael era, will always be big fans of Schumacher, and rate him highly. Therefore seeing Kimi come in, if he starts beating Massa to a bigger extent than Schumacher managed, I think will say a lot for how good Schumacher was in comparison to Kimi, who has never won a title.