Webber quits!!!!!......

[Robinho]

....at the end of the year.....possibly

Australian Mark Webber signs five-year deal to drive for Porsche | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/motor-sport/australian-mark-webber-signs-five-year-deal-to-drive-for-porsche/story-fnhq624b-1226620441226)

[Koz]

Can't expect someone stay to after what happened this weekend.

This much bad luck just isn't be possible.

[Knock-on]

Im really looking forward to watching the team battle for the rest of the year.

[A FONDO]

FINALLY! I thought I wouldn't live long enough to see that dinosaur quit the sport that doesn't suit him.

[CNR]

Porsche denies Mark Webber deal (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/porsche-denies-mark-webber-deal-20130415-2hvns.html)

[CaptainRaiden]

Hmm, Webber saying after the Malaysian fiasco that he has things to think about, and that he's unclear about 2014.

Mateschitz then saying Kimi is an option for 2014.

Kimi says his options are open for 2014.

Now the Porsche rumor.

Judging by how many rumors have come true in the last 3 years, Kimi in a Red Bull and Webber in Le Mans is a safe bet for now. :D

[faster69]

kimi is going to be put into retirement for a second time. we'll see just how good vettel is now. of course, when vettel blows kimi away people will of course start saying that kimi lost motivation :rolleyes:

[Whyzars]

FINALLY! I thought I wouldn't live long enough to see that dinosaur quit the sport that doesn't suit him.

I'll bite.

How can a 36 year old, who is one of the very few people alive today entitled to hold a super licence, be considered a dinosaur?

As far as F1 not suiting him, F1 IS the drivers because they are F1. Mark and Fernando and Sebastian and Lewis and Jenson and Nico and Kimi and all of the other grid holders are F1 and it suits them all.

Ye doth protest too much, too loudly and, it would appear, too bloody soon.

Have a nice day. :)

[henners88]

FINALLY! I thought I wouldn't live long enough to see that dinosaur quit the sport that doesn't suit him.
A multiple race winning dinosaur eh? lol
If it doesn't suit him, he's doing a very good impression of it suiting him!

[DexDexter]

FINALLY! I thought I wouldn't live long enough to see that dinosaur quit the sport that doesn't suit him.

I don't know, to me he's been a pretty successful number 2 driver and still has a lot of speed. One of the best drivers on the grid if you discount the guys with WDC. I actually think Webber will continue next year, remember guys that he could have taken Massa's seat he'd wanted.

[A FONDO]

He has become "pretty successfull" when he joined RB - with by far the best car on the grid. And still has been much weaker than his young teammate. Barichelo also seem'd successfull and quick when driving the dominating Ferrari, Kovalainen in McLaren too.

[Koz]

I actually think Webber will continue next year, remember guys that he could have taken Massa's seat he'd wanted.

Why are people talking about this?
Do you have anything to back this up?

Was there an offer for Webber and Massa to swap seats? Link please?

Why would anyone want to take a seat next to Alonso, the number #1 driver. The guy who [unsuccessfully] blackmailed a team to make him #1? This Mark Webber, who refuses team orders.
Would Webber have taken the gear box penalties? Moved over every time?


Why the hell would RBR want to hire Massa after the 3 disastrous seasons he has had since 2010? Before last season's late resurgence, he would have been lucky to have even a pay drive.

[ShiftingGears]

....at the end of the year.....possibly

Australian Mark Webber signs five-year deal to drive for Porsche | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/motor-sport/australian-mark-webber-signs-five-year-deal-to-drive-for-porsche/story-fnhq624b-1226620441226)

Lazy Australian sports journalism strikes again!

[Whyzars]

Barichelo also seem'd successfull and quick when driving the dominating Ferrari, Kovalainen in McLaren too.

Rubens was no slouch in that BAR either. :)

If Webber doesn't hit a painted line on a wet track in Korea he wins a world championship. Woulda, coulda, shoulda but it really is that simple.

Webber owns his mistakes but we could do well to remember how close he came to winning a WDC and simply respect that. I rate 2010 as probably the best season for the drivers championship of the past 20 years. I think any of four drivers could've claimed the title in the last race. Webber was one.

He has broken his leg at one point with RBR, effectively lost the first half of the 2009 season as he recovered, went on to be oh so close in the 2010 WDC as mentioned. He doesn't seem to be successful - he is successful.

[wedge]

Why are people talking about this?
Do you have anything to back this up?

Was there an offer for Webber and Massa to swap seats? Link please?

Why would anyone want to take a seat next to Alonso, the number #1 driver. The guy who [unsuccessfully] blackmailed a team to make him #1? This Mark Webber, who refuses team orders.
Would Webber have taken the gear box penalties? Moved over every time?


Why the hell would RBR want to hire Massa after the 3 disastrous seasons he has had since 2010? Before last season's late resurgence, he would have been lucky to have even a pay drive.

Replacing Felipe Massa at Ferrari - F1 Opinion, Newsletter - Motor Sport Magazine (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/replacing-massa-at-ferrari/)


Ferrari’s option on Massa, to continue with the team for an eighth season, expired on July 31, and the team declined to take it up. Of late Felipe has shown better form, and it had been thought that maybe – maybe – he might be kept on board, after all. Ferrari’s decision not promptly to take up the option on his services does not definitively mean that he is out for 2013, but his retention seems, at best, extremely unlikely.

Upon the announcement of his re-signing with Red Bull, after all, Mark Webber admitted that he had seriously considered an offer from Ferrari before deciding to stay put. And in recent weeks several other names have been put forward as potential team-mate to Alonso next year.

[zako85]

Webber probably peaked somewhere in 2010, so it won't be a big loss for F1 IMHO. We need to get the younger drivers moving into the top drives.

[anthonyvop]

I'll bite.

How can a 36 year old, who is one of the very few people alive today entitled to hold a super licence, be considered a dinosaur?

As far as F1 not suiting him, F1 IS the drivers because they are F1. Mark and Fernando and Sebastian and Lewis and Jenson and Nico and Kimi and all of the other grid holders are F1 and it suits them all.

Ye doth protest too much, too loudly and, it would appear, too bloody soon.

Have a nice day. :)


Drives for the BEST TEAM in the BEST CAR for the last 3 years and has only managed to finish 3rd twice and 6th in the Championship. Is the worst blocker on the grid, makes terrible judgements(Just ask JV) and has disobeyed Team orders......

Time for him to go.

[henners88]

If only the points in favour for him going were as well written as the ones against lol.

[Koz]

went on to be oh so close in the 2010 WDC as mentioned. He doesn't seem to be successful - he is successful.

Not so close when you take Vettel's engine into account. But Mark missed his shot.

[steveaki13]

I agree that Mark Webber is rubbish.

I mean only starting in 199 Grand Prix - Ordinary

11 Pole Positions - Anyone could do that.

35 Podiums - Badoer could do better

9 GP wins. Anyone with less must be a useless driver.


Stats dont lie do they.

[Koz]

I agree that Mark Webber is rubbish.

I mean only starting in 199 Grand Prix - Ordinary

11 Pole Positions - Anyone could do that.

35 Podiums - Badoer could do better

9 GP wins. Anyone with less must be a useless driver.


Stats dont lie do they.

OMG! Rubens Barrichello beats all of those statistics!

How many podiums and wins did he have before he was in the fastest car on the grid? Can you count them on one hand?

In their time together, in the same car. Vettel has notched up as many wins as WINS as Webber has podiums. So what does that say?

How many pole positions has Vettel had in that time? 3-4 times more?

Yeah, I agree. He is rubbish.

[steveaki13]

Then so was Villeneuve, Barrichello and Button all of who only achieved wins and podiums in really fast cars. In fact most drivers in F1 only win in fastest cars.

Any driver that makes it to F1 is a good driver and any who does as well as Webber is a brilliant one, regardless of the car.

I think people need to remember how good all these drivers are and just how good the likes of Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are.

[Koz]

Then so was Villeneuve, Barrichello and Button all of who only achieved wins and podiums in really fast cars. In fact most drivers in F1 only win in fastest cars.

Any driver that makes it to F1 is a good driver and any who does as well as Webber is a brilliant one, regardless of the car.

I think people need to remember how good all these drivers are and just how good the likes of Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are.

There is no doubting how much skill these guys have, even the guys in GP2 and other feeder series. But we are not comparing drivers with ourselves, we are comparing them with their peers.
And I do not for a second believe that Webber is in any way "brilliant" compared to anyone currently on the grid, with few exceptions.
He is a driver who showed much promise when he came into F1 and then showed nothing special since. He has been very luck to be in the position in which he is, but he is a number #2 driver and can't admit it to himself.

He has had the fastest car since 2009. 4 years. And what does he have to show for it? While his team mate has dominated, he hasn't made an impact. In 2009 or 2010, yes he was a good drivers. He was very lucky that Vettel had two technical failures while leading, (and went kamakazee on him) that gave him a chance - and Webber blew it.
In 2011, WTF. Vettel won 11 races. Webber won 1. And even that was an act of charity from RedBull in hope of getting him #2 in the c'ship. Now #3 doesn't sound bad, but that's 134 point difference.

Where was he last year? 6th.

This isn't a brilliant driver in my book, average, on the level DC, Rubens, even Button.

[DexDexter]

He has become "pretty successfull" when he joined RB - with by far the best car on the grid. And still has been much weaker than his young teammate. Barichelo also seem'd successfull and quick when driving the dominating Ferrari, Kovalainen in McLaren too.

Webber was really impressive at Jaguar, so it's not just Red Bull.

[Koz]

Webber was really impressive at Jaguar, so it's not just Red Bull.

He was only impressive in the Jaguar, nowhere else.

[Whyzars]

Drives for the BEST TEAM in the BEST CAR for the last 3 years and has only managed to finish 3rd twice and 6th in the Championship. Is the worst blocker on the grid, makes terrible judgements(Just ask JV) and has disobeyed Team orders......

Time for him to go.

I can't spend too much time defending Webber against outlandish statements but if folks keep making them then I feel I sorta gotta. :) I do hope that my buttons aren't being pushed. :p

By you calling Red Bull the BEST TEAM I can only assume that you are saying Webber has been doing the business. He would thank you for the recognition I'm sure.

His performance in the BEST CAR has been exemplary. He has only been headed in the championship by a couple of world champions in the last 3 years. How's this, of drivers who have never won a world championship, Webber has led his category in all of the last 3 years.

In 2009 he was beaten by 2 non-world champions. Vettel and Barrichiello in the BAR with which Button won the championship.

When did JV retire again? 2006, 2007? I seem to have lost his number but if I did ask him I'm sure he is not curled up in a ball over anything Mark Webber might have done all those years ago.

Blocking is defending and if Webber is the worst blocker on the grid then he needs to work on it - even in these long dark DRS days. I would love to see a grid full of blockers but alas that pleasure is denied us by the "push to pass" and DRS fanboys who rule F1 today.

There should be only one team order and that is "you scratch it, you pay for it".

It is not time for Webber to go in my opinion but it is time for him to go for it...

[henners88]

OMG! Rubens Barrichello beats all of those statistics!

How many podiums and wins did he have before he was in the fastest car on the grid? Can you count them on one hand?

In their time together, in the same car. Vettel has notched up as many wins as WINS as Webber has podiums. So what does that say?

How many pole positions has Vettel had in that time? 3-4 times more?

Yeah, I agree. He is rubbish.
A very simplistic and dismissive way of weighing things up IMO.

[Garry Walker]

Drives for the BEST TEAM in the BEST CAR for the last 3 years and has only managed to finish 3rd twice and 6th in the Championship.

Time for him to go.
Yes.


I agree that Mark Webber is rubbish.

I mean only starting in 199 Grand Prix - Ordinary

11 Pole Positions - Anyone could do that.

35 Podiums - Badoer could do better

9 GP wins. Anyone with less must be a useless driver.


Stats dont lie do they.
Considering that he has had the best and fastest car for almost 4 years now, in addition to that he has not had to deal with a top 3 driver as his teammate, he should have won far more. At least Barrichello had the excuse of having the best driver in the world as his teammate, webber doesn't even have that.

[Koz]

A very simplistic and dismissive way of weighing things up IMO.

To that I say:


Stats dont lie do they.

Unless you guys mean DC and Rubens are great drives?
All three have impressive statistics while out of context, but when you compare them to their teammates, it is a different story entirely.

[Koz]

I can't spend too much time defending Webber against outlandish statements but if folks keep making them then I feel I sorta gotta. :) I do hope that my buttons aren't being pushed. :p

By you calling Red Bull the BEST TEAM I can only assume that you are saying Webber has been doing the business. He would thank you for the recognition I'm sure.

The credit of that lies soley in the hands of one Adrian Newey. And honorary mention goes to Vettel, for doing what the car was capable of doing.


His performance in the BEST CAR has been exemplary. He has only been headed in the championship by a couple of world champions in the last 3 years. How's this, of drivers who have never won a world championship, Webber has led his category in all of the last 3 years.
Yet, it is his team mate, who has always prevailed by quite a margin (lets take Vettel's engine failures into consideration).

Where was he last year?
Where was in in 2011 when his team mate won half the races and Webber had one out of RBR's charity?


In 2009 he was beaten by 2 non-world champions. Vettel and Barrichiello in the BAR with which Button won the championship.
Yes, where his younger team mate, only in his second season in F1 beat him. Hum, yes that is impressive.
Didn't really impress in the second half of that season either.

[Robinho]

Yes.


Considering that he has had the best and fastest car for almost 4 years now, in addition to that he has not had to deal with a top 3 driver as his teammate, he should have won far more. At least Barrichello had the excuse of having the best driver in the world as his teammate, webber doesn't even have that.

Nice of you to finally acknowledge how much you really rate Jenson Button - Best Driver in the World, you read it here first!! ;)

[henners88]

To that I say:

Unless you guys mean DC and Rubens are great drives?
All three have impressive statistics while out of context, but when you compare them to their teammates, it is a different story entirely.
No. Much like Webber now, DC and Ruben's were racing against team mates who were much more consistent and dare I say better. I don't see the point in declaring a driver is rubbish simply because he can't consistently beat a World Champion team mate. That doesn't mean they are not very good drivers who deserve credit for their success. After all this is Formula One not football.

[TheFamousEccles]

It is dismaying to read so many smug and oh so knowledgeable armchair hard men layin' down the authoritah and sinking the boot in. I can think of a few very good racers that didn't win a WDC whilst occupying a prime seat, and/or having the misfortune to come up against a prodigy in their time - go and do some research. But for some I should imagine that is a step too far, and in which case maybe a Mod should school these deluded souls from time to time... But then again, I am Australian so my opinion of a driver from my own country doesn't count it seems.

This forum's standards of discourse has declined rapidly over the past 6mths, which is a mystery as there are some knowledgeable people posting here.

[BDunnell]

It is dismaying to read so many smug and oh so knowledgeable armchair hard men layin' down the authoritah and sinking the boot in. I can think of a few very good racers that didn't win a WDC whilst occupying a prime seat, and/or having the misfortune to come up against a prodigy in their time - go and do some research.

I agree. Such people have no historical perspective, nor an appreciation of the fact that ability cannot only be measured through statistics. It saddens me that, today, a driver as outstanding as Chris Amon would be described as a 'loser' or similar.

[DexDexter]

He was only impressive in the Jaguar, nowhere else.

I don't think anyone is saying he is a great driver, just a good one. It's just that he has probably the fastest driver in F1 as a teammate. Without Vettel's presense, Webber could well be a WDC right now.

[henners88]

I don't think anyone is saying he is a great driver, just a good one. It's just that he has probably the fastest driver in F1 as a teammate. Without Vettel's presense, Webber could well be a WDC right now.
Indeed. I don't think there is any doubt that Vettel is the primary focus of Red Bull and has been since 2009. Webber is a multople race winner and even the best car does not always guarantee an easy victory. Many would say Ferrari had the best car in 2008 but would we hear claims Kimi is rubbish because he often couldn't match Felipe that year? Definitely not. The bigger picture needs to be analysed in every scenario, especially at this level.

[andyone]

if i was kimmi Better stay with Lotus. and become number one driver. rather than going to join. vettel. hmm they will somehow make hime number two driver. lotus is a very strong team even though no one seems to notice that. they are one of the fastes at the moment.. redbull need another loser to help Vettel

[Whyzars]

The credit of that lies soley in the hands of one Adrian Newey. And honorary mention goes to Vettel, for doing what the car was capable of doing.


You say "solely" but what about Horner, the engineers, Renault, the owner, the pit crews. All go towards the BEST TEAM mantel. Vettel and Webber have to do the business end and they do.

You give only an honorary mention to a phenomenon (Vettel) and no credit to the other, more senior, driver in the team.

Webber has been at Red Bull a lot of years and, I presume, with Newey's blessing.




Yet, it is his team mate, who has always prevailed by quite a margin (lets take Vettel's engine failures into consideration).

Why do you say "yet"? I don't recall ever saying that Webber is better than Vettel.

The way Webber is being attacked it sounds like he is being lowered into the car in an old peoples sling and only finds his way around a track with the assistance of a GPS and bump stops.




Where was he last year?
Where was in in 2011 when his team mate won half the races and Webber had one out of RBR's charity?

Such a terrible thing to say about RBR and the question must be asked - why do you think their charity wasn't extended to the other races in the season?


As I noted earlier, Vettel is a phenomenon. Vettel is earning his achievements without a dominant car and against a rule book that is designed to combat greatness. Phenomenal.

Just maybe Webber's many years of experience have contributed to Red Bull success but you haven't acknowledged that possibility. Red Bull sign him for some reason or other. What reason could they possibly have?

In 2010 Mark made his stupid crack to the world about being the #2 driver when winning the British GP. He won the GP of Hungary a few weeks later and then won nothing until Brazil in 2011. Webber's performances have changed markedly since 2010. Someone said in another thread that Webber drives well when he's p*ssed, I would hazard a guess that the opposite might be true.

He has been bested but its nothing that a couple of race wins won't fix. We're only talking tenths of a second after all.




Yes, where his younger team mate, only in his second season in F1 beat him. Hum, yes that is impressive.
Didn't really impress in the second half of that season either.

I have enjoyed immensely watching my countryman driving in a top tier team.

[Garry Walker]

I don't think anyone is saying he is a great driver, just a good one. It's just that he has probably the fastest driver in F1 as a teammate.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Gutierrez would look like the fastest driver in F1 in the kind of car RB has had since 2009.

[faster69]

the red bull was only superior car in 2011. mclaren had better race pace but poorer reliability than the red bull. the red bull had better pace than the ferrari in the second half of the season, but the ferrari had great reliability all year and decent race pace which is what kept alonso in the championship. nothing between red bull, ferrari and mclaren in 2010.

[Koz]

No. Much like Webber now, DC and Ruben's were racing against team mates who were much more consistent and dare I say better. I don't see the point in declaring a driver is rubbish simply because he can't consistently beat a World Champion team mate. That doesn't mean they are not very good drivers who deserve credit for their success. After all this is Formula One not football.

Absolutely. Other than that one sarcastic in reply to steveaki13. I've always said he is decent, but not as good or great as people paint him out to be.
He's just not in the same class as Vettel, Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton. Solid, if not a bit inconsistent, number #2 driver.


It is dismaying to read so many smug and oh so knowledgeable armchair hard men layin' down the authoritah and sinking the boot in. I can think of a few very good racers that didn't win a WDC whilst occupying a prime seat, and/or having the misfortune to come up against a prodigy in their time - go and do some research.
So you accept he is a second rate driver when it comes to the likes of those whom I mentioned?
I agree.


But for some I should imagine that is a step too far, and in which case maybe a Mod should school these deluded souls from time to time... But then again, I am Australian so my opinion of a driver from my own country doesn't count it seems.
So you don't like my opinion? Where's yours?
How about you provides a single counterpoint to anything I have said rather than attacking me?

This is a discussion forum, so why don't we discuss?



I agree. Such people have no historical perspective, nor an appreciation of the fact that ability cannot only be measured through statistics.

I agree, statistics don't tell the whole story. But when someone starts using statistics, it is wrong to use the same statistics to argue a counterpoint?

[Koz]

You say "solely" but what about Horner, the engineers, Renault, the owner, the pit crews. All go towards the BEST TEAM mantel. Vettel and Webber have to do the business end and they do.
Sarcasm. Although Newey's record speaks for itself.


The way Webber is being attacked it sounds like he is being lowered into the car in an old peoples sling and only finds his way around a track with the assistance of a GPS and bump stops.
I don't mean to be that harsh. I just mean he isn't up to the mark being set by other drivers. As I have always said, he is the same as DC et al. Nothing special.



Such a terrible thing to say about RBR and the question must be asked - why do you think their charity wasn't extended to the other races in the season?
Why is it terrible?
They repeatedly told Vettel to look after his gearbox and it apparently kept getting worse and worse. And yet at the close of the race Webber and Vettel started trading fastest laps.
Do you think if Vettel hadn't let him through, Webber would have won that race?

That's quite simple. Vettel wasn't really in a position to help Webber prior to this race, Webber was just too far behind in races to be given charity.



As I noted earlier, Vettel is a phenomenon. Vettel is earning his achievements without a dominant car and against a rule book that is designed to combat greatness. Phenomenal.
When didn't Vettel have the dominant car?
All I can think of is that he didn't have the fastest car for the first half of last season. In the second half he did. In 2011 the Red Bull was clearly the fastest. In 2010 without failures, he too would have run away with the championship.


Just maybe Webber's many years of experience have contributed to Red Bull success but you haven't acknowledged that possibility. Red Bull sign him for some reason or other. What reason could they possibly have?
That is a good question, one that even Marko doesn't have an answer to.


In 2010 Mark made his stupid crack to the world about being the #2 driver when winning the British GP. He won the GP of Hungary a few weeks later and then won nothing until Brazil in 2011. Webber's performances have changed markedly since 2010. Someone said in another thread that Webber drives well when he's p*ssed, I would hazard a guess that the opposite might be true.
I agree, he was a much better driver in 2010 than he has been since.


He has been bested but its nothing that a couple of race wins won't fix. We're only talking tenths of a second after all.
I disagree. It is tenths of seconds that separate these drivers. And I don't think this balance will change this year either.

I sincerely hope Webber proves me wrong and throughly beats Vettel.

[jens]

Oh my god, what has happened to the forum in the last few days. Since I come, here is so much activity and so many posts I can't really deepen into all of this. :D

Anyway, what to say...
Surprisingly early in the season to sign such contract, if true.

Webber doesn't seem like a driver, who would like to pursuit another midfield drive in F1, so he is looking for a new challenge.

Of course if the contract has already been signed, then the Malaysian GP can't have been the main reason, because planning for a career move and signing necessary deals takes longer than just one-two weeks. So Webber must have thought of 2013 being his last F1 season already right from the start of the season. But Malaysia may have been a catalyst, which confirmed his decision and he really signed the deal after negotiations with Porsche. Much like Barrichello felt after USA 2005 that it is time to move on from Ferrari like he later confirmed.

Webber as a driver? I think claims that he goes into the history in the same way as Patrese, Coulthard or Barrichello sound about right. But I think the lad can be happy that in the second half of his F1 career he got so many chances in excellent cars, because for many years he was stuck in midfield and it looked like he may not get his big break at all. Like seemed the case with Fisichella (and perhaps Barrichello in the 90's) for many years. And which eventually was the case with Heidfeld.

Some of his spectacular qualifying performances from Jaguar days have stuck to my mind. It is worth remembering that before teaming up with Sebastian Mark was widely regarded as one of the best qualifying drivers on the grid. And so I think for the past seasons RBR has had the best "qualifiers" line-up in F1, though the current Hamilton-Rosberg gives a strong competition on that front, especially if Nico sorts out his Q3's.

[steveaki13]

Exactly.

He is a very good driver, but happens to be team mate to a great one who has won 3 titles.

Same for Rubens he done a decent job against one of the best.

[Knock-on]

Webbers a top bloke and can be proud to be compared with DC, Rubens etc. OK, he may not be a top 3 driver but has the talent to be up pushing on merit.

Also, top 3 drivers are usually admired but disliked. Im glad Mark never lost his personality and very few people in the sport would say a word against him. That counts a lot in my book.

I assume we will have a similar thread one day about Nico.

[liposh]

I remember Webber in 2000 and 2001. He was slow. Maybe on Wikipedia it seems he was tallented and quick, but I remember it. The same story as this year. Great car, average driver. He didn´t move forward until today. He can´t be F1 world champion. It is technically not possible. And that is all. Nothing more to say, no more ace to play. ...Vettel takes it all. :D

[henners88]

I remember Webber in 2000 and 2001. He was slow. Maybe on Wikipedia it seems he was tallented and quick, but I remember it. The same story as this year. Great car, average driver. He didn´t move forward until today. He can´t be F1 world champion. It is technically not possible. And that is all. Nothing more to say, no more ace to play. ...Vettel takes it all. :D
For the past few years we've had people discrediting Vettels achievements by saying he is only winning because he has the best car. Obviously this has been defended fiercely by Seb's fans because lets face it, you need a certain amount of talent to extract the potential out of any car and Seb has that talent.

Now we have some of us here who don't quite class Webber in the same league as Seb, but acknowledge he is a very good and fast driver, only for some of Seb's fans to say he's only got his 9 race victories because he (Webber) has the best car! :crazy: :s pin:

[faster69]

webber beat every teammate up until vettel. he hasn't beaten a teammate with the talent of hamilton for instance, but neither has alonso. alonso couldn't even beat trulli in 04.

the (relative) deterioration in webber's performances is due to webber declining with age, vettel getting stronger (he's only raced 5 full seasons), the pressure of senior people at red bull constantly undermining him, and having to over drive the car just to keep up with his teammate which creates errors.

[henners88]

I've always said he is decent, but not as good or great as people paint him out to be.
He's just not in the same class as Vettel, Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton. Solid, if not a bit inconsistent, number #2 driver.
Having checked this thread and the others relating to Webber of late, I am yet to find anybody on this forum that has gone on the record to say Webber is 'great' and in the same talent league as Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. Webber is at a disadvantage where age is concerned and he is in a team where the focus is very much on his younger, talented, multiple WDC team mate of course. I don't know if we've got our wires crossed here, but I got the impression there was more the view Webber didn't deserve his Red Bull seat than people actually trying to suggest he's arguably the best. I think the top tier in the sport has Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, with the likes of Button, Webber, Rosberg, Massa etc occupying the tier below. I only really base my opinion there on the consistency of their performances, but on their day they can be unbeatable. Nico is on course to proving himself now he has a car capable of consistent podiums, so we'll see him being talked about more often hopefully.

[liposh]

Henners88: In most of the points I must agree with you. :)

Important point to mention: Nobody knows exacly how good Vettel is. He totally IS above F1 average. Moreover we presume/know (and everybody here must confirm this sentence) that Kimi, Alonso and Lewis are top class. Is Vettel same level? IMO yes, but who knows.

[Koz]

Having checked this thread and the others relating to Webber of late, I am yet to find anybody on this forum that has gone on the record to say Webber is 'great' and in the same talent league as Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. Webber is at a disadvantage where age is concerned and he is in a team where the focus is very much on his younger, talented, multiple WDC team mate of course. I don't know if we've got our wires crossed here, but I got the impression there was more the view Webber didn't deserve his Red Bull seat than people actually trying to suggest he's arguably the best. I think the top tier in the sport has Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, with the likes of Button, Webber, Rosberg, Massa etc occupying the tier below. I only really base my opinion there on the consistency of their performances, but on their day they can be unbeatable. Nico is on course to proving himself now he has a car capable of consistent podiums, so we'll see him being talked about more often hopefully.

It's not whether he deserves his seat or not, but the fact that he is almost always so far away from Vettel that bugs me. And yet people keep saying he is "very good".
If you compare this with the post-accident Massa, he's much better. But not as good as Button, Rosberg still unproven; which is why I try to take a step back and compare him with the drivers that I do.

I have even said many times that we can't even assess Vettel's abilities while he has the best car or a team mate not in the top tier.

I think over the last few years we have had the greatest talent pool we have ever seen in F1. And I think most drivers on the grid would be able to match Webber. (Not particularly this year)

Webber = solid #2, nothing more.

[henners88]

I get the impression you are splitting hairs over the use of the term 'very good'. Most people here would agree he's a solid number two driver, but to get where he is today he also has to be very good. He's quite a bit older than the current crop of top drivers and yet he has won 9 races. You have to be 'very good' in order to extract the potential out of any car so on that basis I say Webber is very good but inconsistent over the course of a whole season. I'm struggling to see what we are debating here now to be honest.

[jens]

Indeed I do think this is a matter of our personal culture and attitude as we are talking about semantics here.

When I am talking about F1 drivers, I am used to describing most of them as „good“, at least. Because, well, they are. It is not about destroying the opposition, but being competitive. And most of them are. Of course they are all different and have their weaknesses, some of them notable ones so that they do not exactly stand out.

But nonetheless they can give a run for the money of other drivers, outrace their top-notch team-mates on occasions – in short, be competitive, get points, podiums, even wins in the right car. Or, god forbid, challenge for the championship in the right circumstances.

When I recall the likes of Yoong, Ide or the 2009 version of Badoer, then whenever you see them on track, you are instantly reminded, how good the competitive F1 drivers really are. And it takes a mountain to climb to reach that level.

[CNR]

Mark Webber coy over prospects of leaving F1 for Porsche LMP1 deal - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106927)
Webber said on Saturday that it is too early in the season to be considering his options for 2014.
"I've never made any decisions on my future in March or April," Webber told reporters in the Sakhir paddock.
"As you'd expect, with what I've done as a driver, there could be other offers and opportunities.

[ioan]

webber beat every teammate up until vettel.

Really? This is just one of those urban legends the internet is full of.
I don't remember him besting Heidfeld who had more points then Webber by the time he had his 'bike accident' and had to leave Williams.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Really? This is just one of those urban legends the internet is full of.
I don't remember him besting Heidfeld who had more points then Webber by the time he had his 'bike accident' and had to leave Williams.

How dare you dazzle the man with facts ? ;)