Red Bull Abolish team orders..

[i_max2k2]

So I know that this is the 100th thread of the fallout b/w mark and seb, but this kind of puts an interesting perspective forward. No holding spots, drivers free to race each other, till they take each other out.. and so forth, I'd say a very brave move on part of red bull, will other teams follow precedent?

And I'd say all of this is to kind of pat on Vettel's back, as if saying, it was always about you.

What do you guys think?

[CNR]

F1: Red Bull Scraps Team Orders After Malaysia Affair (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-red-bull-scraps-team-orders-after-malaysia-affair/)
In the wake of the 'Multi-21' affair, Red Bull has abolished team orders.

"There will be no more team orders by us," the energy drink company's motor sport director Helmut Marko told Germany's Sport Bild on Wednesday. Q: how many of Vettels wins have come through team orders.

[ShiftingGears]

I think it's a wise move as far as soothing tensions between drivers goes. However I think they will question the wisdom of it if another Turkey 2010 happens. Regardless, the fans will get to see what they want to see.

[airshifter]

I have as much faith in this claim by the team as I do if Flavio said he never cheated.

[Tazio]

I have as much faith in this claim by the team as I do if Flavio said he never cheated.I hear you bro. What about secret team orders. ;)

[henners88]

I hear you bro. What about secret team orders. ;)
I doubt Webber will be subtle if any secret team orders are given from now on.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Q: how many of Vettels wins have come through team orders.

Not a single one

[AndyL]

If they did continue to issue team orders, would either driver obey them? The main benefit of this is probably that Christian Horner will avoid looking weak in any repeat of the events of Malaysia.

[henners88]

Not a single one
El facto lol.

[dj_bytedisaster]

El facto lol.

Name one before you lol

[henners88]

Name one before you lol
Adam

[dj_bytedisaster]

henners, maybe you can come up with a more helpful response? The question was, how many of Vettel's wins came through team order and I claimed that none of those were the result of team orders. Your initial, not very philosophic reply indicates that you disagree, so instead of spamming rubbish, how about you tell us a win that came through team orders?

[henners88]

henners, maybe you can come up with a more helpful response? The question was, how many of Vettel's wins came through team order and I claimed that none of those were the result of team orders. Your initial, not very philosophic reply indicates that you disagree, so instead of spamming rubbish, how about you tell us a win that came through team orders?
You know what I can't tell you how many wins came by the use of team orders because I don't have access to that kind of inside information and neither do you! It is one of those questions that no fan in the land can answer definitively hence why I mocked your initial response. I was being rather light hearted about things and if you feel that was offensive then that is not my problem.

Now seeing as you can answer the question, lets see you back it up!

[Zico]

Meanwhile...

"Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel says he would "probably" ignore team orders again if he was instructed not to challenge team-mate Mark Webber.
Vettel was asked if he would repeat his actions from the Malaysian Grand Prix.
He said: "I'm not sure I can give a proper answer because in the moment it might be different but I would probably do the same."
Vettel added his move was "indirectly" a form of payback for what he said was a lack of past support from Webber.
Vettel said: "I never had support from his side. I have a lot of support from the team and think they are supporting both of us the same way. I respect Mark as a racing driver but there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't."
Vettel was asked if he was getting revenge for Webber being less than helpful in last year's title-deciding race in Brazil, when Webber appeared to be obstructive twice despite being told by the team to help Vettel in his championship battle with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso.

The German replied: "Probably you could say indirectly so."
Vettel did not mention the several times in the past that Webber has obeyed team orders not to challenge Vettel, even when he felt he was faster and was himself a title contender - as for example in Canada, Japan and Brazil in 2010.
Asked if he would have given the place back had team principal Christian Horner ordered him to do so over the radio, Vettel said: "I didn't mean to ignore the team's order. I heard it, but I didn't understand it the proper way. I apologised for that.
"Had I understood, I think (if) I had thought about it and reflected on what leaving Mark in first place meant, I probably would have done the same thing because Mark doesn't deserve that."
Vettel explained that he did not initially understand the team's message "Multi 21" - a coded team order for Webber (car number two) to finish ahead of Vettel (car number one).
Webber experienced the same confusion in Brazil last year, when he was given the message "Multi 12" - an order for Vettel to finish ahead of Webber.
Vettel said he had not been punished by the team.
"I did speak up and apologise," he said. "Sanction, punishment, what do you expect to happen? We dealt with it internally. I did apologise to the team as soon as I could, the whole team, not just the people working here."
He admitted his actions had undermined Horner's authority.
"You could say so," Vettel said, "but I went to talk to everyone straight afterwards. The intention was not to undermine the team principal."
When it was suggested Horner was no longer in control of the team, Vettel said: "That is not right. He is the boss, he is in control of all the employees. I am not in any other position than I am. I am the driver."...

BBC News


Wow... The team abolishing team orders in support of him is one thing but for Vettel to then effectively denounce his employers authority publicly is shear arrogance on a level I've never seen before.
Apologises for ignoring team orders then admits he'd do it again? Seb you are getting way, way too big for your boots buddy! If I was your boss you'd quickly be very aware of that fact if you tried to pull a stunt like that again.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Of course I don't have the definitive answer, but based on past statements of both drivers, especially Mark, I think we would remember an obvious team order that gave Vettel the win. Garry would be raising holy hell about it to the very day :D

I can remember a few instances were Mark was 'asked' not to attack or to let Vettel pass. Silverstone 11, Abu Dhabi 12, Interlagos 12 come to mind. In Silverstone Mark attacked, but didn't pass. Most people think that Mark backed off, but the man himself claims to have disobeyed the team order and failing to pass. In Abu Dhabi they told him to make way and when he didn't react fast enough they 'conveniently' called him into the pits. Interlagos is a grey area as both of the RB drivers drove as if they had their helmets on back-to-front. But in all these instances it never was for a win, but for 2nd or 3rd.

So unless there has been something super-secret behind the scenes, I am pretty convinced that no win of his came as a result of a team order and given Mark's stance on team orders it seems unlikely, too. Malaysia was the first time that Mark thought a team order was a good thing...

[henners88]

There are too many digs at Webber in that post for me to go through it and comment. I'm not a fan of either driver, but it seems to me you have an interest in the public image of one but not the other.

[henners88]

I think a good a good question to ask instead is how many World Champions have won their titles with the help of team orders?

Answer: Every single one of them.

Far less aggro in that summary.

[Big Ben]

Not a single one

the last one comes

[dj_bytedisaster]

There are too many digs at Webber in that post for me to go through it and comment. I'm not a fan of either driver, but it seems to me you have an interest in the public image of one but not the other.

Well, it's the image that Mark created, not me. It wasn't me, who bragged to the media in '11 that he thinks team orders are wrong and that he therefore disobeyed them and it wasn't me, who boasted to the press in Brazil '12 that he won't help his team mate. He made the bed, he has to sleep in it.

[henners88]

That's the image you hold personally, not everyone. Neither driver has a squeaky clean past but Marks public admissions or condemnations earn him more respect from 'some' of us.

[dj_bytedisaster]

That's the image you hold personally, not everyone. Neither driver has a squeaky clean past but Marks public admissions or condemnations earn him more respect from 'some' of us.

If you followed the discussions over the last 3 weeks, you'll know that I think that Mark's admissions were much more credible than Vettel's half-arsed apology, but even the stoutest Mark supporter will have a hard time coming up with a good explanation for Mark's behaviour after Malaysia. He said in the past that we doesn't think much of team orders, but when it helps him he expects Vettel to obey them and sulks when he doesn't. That's either unbelievably naive or just hypocrisy.

I agree that neither of them has a clean past, so I see no reason to applaud Mark for the same that Vettel is getting blasted for. In the end RB did the right thing and abolished this whole idea. In the end it might end up giving us more excitement, even if it costs RB points and I would hazard a guess that not too many people around here will be overly sad to see RB and vettel in particular losing some points :D

[henners88]

If you followed the discussions over the last 3 weeks, you'll know that I think that Mark's admissions were much more credible than Vettel's half-arsed apology, but even the stoutest Mark supporter will have a hard time coming up with a good explanation for Mark's behaviour after Malaysia. He said in the past that we doesn't think much of team orders, but when it helps him he expects Vettel to obey them and sulks when he doesn't. That's either unbelievably naive or just hypocrisy.
I think Red Bull's reaction was as much telling as Mark's with them not being best pleased about being ignored either. Mark may well have threatened to ignore team orders in the past, but he didn't pass and win a race which is why I think Vettel is getting more of a hard time for doing so. We've been over all that before though and nothing has changed.

I don't think it is a case of Red Bull abolishing team orders but more that they have no choice because neither driver is prepared to obey them anyway. I think Vettel has shot himself in the foot a little too early in this championship. I can't see Webber wishing to stay with Red Bull past the end of this season and I think Red Bull will be looking for a driver that would rather support than win in any case. The problem they have now is if they need Webber to help a little towards the end of the year like he has in previous years? If I was Webber I would end my Red Bull career on a high by preventing my team mate win his fourth title if the opportunity comes up. Sod handing a race win back to Mark, lets just forget it for now and let Mark return the favour when he deems fit. As you said Mark has made his bed, now he must sleep in it. The same can now be said of Vettel and the situation he has created through greed. Its going to be an exciting year for those of us not particularly supporting either! :D

[markabilly]

Mr Vettle announces that (1) he did not understand that there was a team order to not to pass Mark :rolleyes: ; (2) if he had it to do over, he would think about it, and probably do the same thing again :vader: and(3) the reason is that "Webber did not deserve victory" .


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106631

[markabilly]

The headline says it all as it read:Red Bull kippt Stallorder für Vettel!

In other words, for Vettel, the team orders shall be abolished

it goes on to read:

"Red Bull flips for the world champion the install order. This means for the Grand Prix of China next weekend and for all remaining races of the season: free ride for Sebastian Vettel"

Appearantly the reason is that the owner was very unhappy about all the flak taken by Vettel over his disobeying team orders, so the owner decides no more team orders. :hot:


Call it cutting the Gordian Knot to make your boy happy.... :imubash: .



then Mr. Vettel announces that Webber did not deserve victory anyway.... :love:

[markabilly]

I hear you bro. What about secret team orders. ;)

You mean as to who will have a bit more fuel, so the other runs out of gas first???????

Or as brawn said about team orders: that we would look a bit foolish if we let both cars run out of fuel.......

or who gets the better tire strategy??? or why Webber's car does not always have that great start????

[henners88]

Or the old 'Please don't use your KERS, we think there is a fault' line. Webber has had more than his fair share of these failures in the past or so many of us think ;)

[markabilly]

"because Mark doesn't deserve that" (victory)

Seems vettel is getting a bit arrogant towards his team..claiming that he misunderstood but would do it again

Earlier Horner said:

When asked why the team did not ask Vettel to relinquish the position to Webber in the closing stages to make up for his defiance, Horner said: "Do you honestly think that if we had told him 'slow down and give the place back', he would have given it back?
"There was no point. He had made it quite clear what his intention was by making the move. He knew what the communication was. He had had the communication. He chose to ignore it.
"He put his interest beyond what the team's position was. He was focused on those seven points difference between second and first place - which was wrong. He has accepted it was wrong."

Malaysian GP: Red Bull sure Vettel flouted team order deliberately - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106356)


worth a read: http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/105112.html



So now, Vettel says, differently and a big "so what" to everyone.....


"Maybe it is a little bit of a dreamland that you all live in, but what do you expect to happen?" said Vettel. "Make a suggestion!"

[wedge]

Not a single one

That's not to say he hasn't benefited from them. BBC Sport - Chinese Grand Prix: Webber & Vettel wounds have never healed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22105955)

2011 British GP - Webber may have broken team orders but no to the extent of taking a win from them.

[Zico]

Yes but I don't think anyone really cares. I posted link to the BBC version in the Red Bull Team orders thread but nobody on here seems surprised or seems to consider it worthy of a comment.


Meanwhile...

"Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel says he would "probably" ignore team orders again if he was instructed not to challenge team-mate Mark Webber.
Vettel was asked if he would repeat his actions from the Malaysian Grand Prix.
He said: "I'm not sure I can give a proper answer because in the moment it might be different but I would probably do the same."
Vettel added his move was "indirectly" a form of payback for what he said was a lack of past support from Webber.
Vettel said: "I never had support from his side. I have a lot of support from the team and think they are supporting both of us the same way. I respect Mark as a racing driver but there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't."
Vettel was asked if he was getting revenge for Webber being less than helpful in last year's title-deciding race in Brazil, when Webber appeared to be obstructive twice despite being told by the team to help Vettel in his championship battle with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso.

The German replied: "Probably you could say indirectly so."
Vettel did not mention the several times in the past that Webber has obeyed team orders not to challenge Vettel, even when he felt he was faster and was himself a title contender - as for example in Canada, Japan and Brazil in 2010.
Asked if he would have given the place back had team principal Christian Horner ordered him to do so over the radio, Vettel said: "I didn't mean to ignore the team's order. I heard it, but I didn't understand it the proper way. I apologised for that.
"Had I understood, I think (if) I had thought about it and reflected on what leaving Mark in first place meant, I probably would have done the same thing because Mark doesn't deserve that."
Vettel explained that he did not initially understand the team's message "Multi 21" - a coded team order for Webber (car number two) to finish ahead of Vettel (car number one).
Webber experienced the same confusion in Brazil last year, when he was given the message "Multi 12" - an order for Vettel to finish ahead of Webber.
Vettel said he had not been punished by the team.
"I did speak up and apologise," he said. "Sanction, punishment, what do you expect to happen? We dealt with it internally. I did apologise to the team as soon as I could, the whole team, not just the people working here."
He admitted his actions had undermined Horner's authority.
"You could say so," Vettel said, "but I went to talk to everyone straight afterwards. The intention was not to undermine the team principal."
When it was suggested Horner was no longer in control of the team, Vettel said: "That is not right. He is the boss, he is in control of all the employees. I am not in any other position than I am. I am the driver."...

BBC News


Wow... The team abolishing team orders in support of him is one thing but for Vettel to then effectively denounce his employers authority publicly is shear arrogance on a level I've never seen before.
Apologises for ignoring team orders then admits he'd do it again? Seb you are getting way, way too big for your boots buddy! If I was your boss you'd quickly be very aware of that fact if you tried to pull a stunt like that again.


Will be very interesting to see how their season pans out now with no team orders. It's clearly Marks last season with Red Bull so he hasn't much to lose but unless his efforts and/or cars performance/tactics are undermined by the team it's likely that we are going to see some fireworks between the pair of them. Red Bull implosion?

[Big Ben]

I think the understated idea of this new policy is that they will just make sure team orders will not be needed in the future :laugh:

[Big Ben]

dj will come and handle you boys in a minute... have a little patience

[dj_bytedisaster]

2011 British GP - Webber may have broken team orders but no to the extent of taking a win from them.

Why is that any difference? What's different between breaking into a house and stealing 1000 bucks and breaking into a house and stealing 5000 bucks. It's still the same crime. And when Mark breaks team orders racing for 2nd and Vettel does for the win, the result might be different, but it's still exactly the same misbehaviour in both cases.

[Bagwan]

Multi 21 says the team was hiding team orders , even though they are legal .
We know now they were saying that number two was to stay behind number one .

Given their past experiences with team orders between these two , and the fact that there was a code set up to give the order , it lends credence to the idea of there being an agreement in place .

Coming to some sort of agreement about who would be allowed to win after a certain point like a specific lap or a final set of stops , says , to some degree , that they had both agreed to leave what had happened to that point in the past .

But , that's done for now .
It only makes sense for RedBull to come out and say there are no team orders , as , effectively , there aren't anyway , as neither driver will choose to help the other from here on in .

And , from now on , they will sweat if their drivers are in close proximity to one another .

Clearly , they were uncomfortable with the idea of orders to begin with , so now , with none , we will see how uncomfortable they are to have two guys that can't stand each other , jointly in charge of their fortunes .

[Whyzars]

Will be very interesting to see how their season pans out now with no team orders.

If Webber is able to get off the line and the team don't short fuel his car we might just see some epic battles between this pair.


I have never had the impression that Webber, at any point, thought Vettel would have been within striking distance if Webber hadn't backed off according to team understandings.

Vettel saying Webber didn't deserve the win might be an indication of just how much heat Vettel has taken personally over this. I think Vettel might have just gone into F*ck everyone mode and has entered into the last refuge of the gifted - arrogance.


There will always be team orders as long as more than one person is driving each car. The "pit driver" can instruct the vehicle driver to turn his engine down for fuel or tyre conservation. That assistance can achieve a result that a team might find preferable.


There is so much wrong in F1 today...

[Ranger]

And as for Webber not being a team player:



I think you were leading the race by about four and a half seconds if I&#8217]
[quote="Mark Webber":27g4j09u]
Yeah, it was a little bit of a surprise. I think that the gaps were quite awkward, they were trying to manage the gap to Lewis as well which was three seconds. I think Lewis had pitted the previous lap, I&#8217]I asked for that lap, I wanted that lap but I couldn’t have that lap[/B] so because of the situation I think if I asked for that lap and got it and Lewis was not there I would have got that lap. So I think it was just a frustrating margin as I think between the three of us it was making it quite tricky in terms of managing that last stop window. But a good question mate, anyway.[/quote:27g4j09u]

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Webber is able to get off the line and the team don't short fuel his car we might just see some epic battles between this pair.

How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car? If anything, Malaysia proved that RB only care about the constructor points and impairing one of thair cars would be colosally stupid.



I have never had the impression that Webber, at any point, thought Vettel would have been within striking distance if Webber hadn't backed off according to team understandings.

Vettel caught up on the two laps between their last stops. When Mark came out of the pits after the last stop he barely managed to stay in front only then came the "multi21", so Vettel was in "striking distance" before the team order was given.
Mark cannot have backed off at any significant rate, as both drove their respective best laps on lap 45 and the fight started at the beginning aof lap 46. Mark backed off when Vettel was past. He dropped back by 2 seconds almost immediately.



Vettel saying Webber didn't deserve the win might be an indication of just how much heat Vettel has taken personally over this. I think Vettel might have just gone into F*ck everyone mode and has entered into the last refuge of the gifted - arrogance.

That's only half the sentence. He said that Mark doesn't deserve to be given the race because of earlier instances of Mark not being very helpful when asked to - mainly Abu Dhabi and Brazil last year. But I agree with the "eff everyone" attitude. There is a very lengthy Interview with him on Motorsport-Total, which sounds a lot different than Benson's rather biased article. Benson deliberately misquotes several statements. Basically it boils down to these things:

- He said everything that was to say and is tired of repeating it over and over.
- He mistook the Multi21 due to poor audibility for a change of settings. Important messages are usually given more than once, while "multi21" was given only once, so he assumed whatever it was had solved itself, because the message was not repeated.
- He isn't sure if he would have stayed behind had he understood the message properly. He speculated that he might have thought about it, but probably would have overtaken anyways, since he doesn't see any reason to gift Mark a race after the stunt he pulled on him at Brazil.



There will always be team orders as long as more than one person is driving each car. The "pit driver" can instruct the vehicle driver to turn his engine down for fuel or tyre conservation. That assistance can achieve a result that a team might find preferable.


There is so much wrong in F1 today...

Ferrari was raked over the coals for Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 and that were races in the middle of the season. Why are team orders suddenly acceptable as early as the second race?

[wedge]

Why is that any difference? What's different between breaking into a house and stealing 1000 bucks and breaking into a house and stealing 5000 bucks. It's still the same crime. And when Mark breaks team orders racing for 2nd and Vettel does for the win, the result might be different, but it's still exactly the same misbehaviour in both cases.

You have used that analogy before and I don't agree with it.

Webber's actions was a lesser evil.

How about cheating on a partner? Kissing is one thing, sex is another? One would say the former is more forgiveable than the latter.

Ho Hum. Each to their own.

[Ranger]

"Had I understood, I think (if) I had thought about it and reflected on what leaving Mark in first place meant, I probably would have done the same thing because Mark doesn't deserve that."

That is the absolute summit of arrogance right there.

[dj_bytedisaster]

That is the absolute summit of arrogance right there.

That quote leaves out the second part of Vettels statement. He said Mark doesn't deserve to be given a race because he refused to help at Brazil '12 despite being asked to.

Al those "didn't deserve it" quote you find in Benson's article on BBC or on Autosport are from a lengthy German language interview on Motorsport-Total (http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/2013/04/Vettel_Was_passiert_ist_ist_passiert_13041127.html )

The exact quote is: In Anbetracht der Ereignisse in den vergangenen Jahren glaube ich, dass der Mark es nicht verdient gehabt hätte, dass ich den zweiten Platz halte und ihm den Sieg überlasse.

Considering the events of the last years, I believe that Mark wouldn't have deserved that I hold second place and give him the win.

[henners88]

Fortunately its not really down to Vettel to decide who deserves to win and who doesn't. That is a pretty arrogant stance IMO.

[Ranger]

That quote leaves out the second part of Vettels statement. He said Mark doesn't deserve to be given a race because he refused to help at Brazil '12 despite being asked to.

In Malaysia had Webber not complied with the team's request to:

a) Let Vettel have the undercut at the final stop;
b) Turn his engine down;

...then Vettel would not have been anywhere near him, yet alone win.

So justifying his decision with the specific phrase "Mark didn't deserve to win" reaffirms my opinion:


That is the absolute summit of arrogance right there.

[dj_bytedisaster]

In Malaysia had Webber not complied with the team's request to:

a) Let Vettel have the undercut at the final stop;

Mark was never asked. Vettel was brought in to cover Hamilton. It was the team's decision, not something that Mark 'agreed to'. There is no god given right to get the undercut. Mark more than once got the undercut despite Vettel being in the lead.


b) Turn his engine down;

He didn't turn down his engine until AFTER the overtaking manover. He drove his fastest lap immediately before Vettel attacked him.


...then Vettel would not have been anywhere near him, yet alone win.

Vettel was directly behind Mark in lap 26 and obeyed the teams wish to not attack and leave a gap as the team said he was too close in the fast corners. That allowed Hamilton to get past during the second wave of pitstops. Did you even see the race?


So justifying his decision with the specific phrase "Mark didn't deserve to win" reaffirms my opinion:

It just confirms that you didn't see the race.

[henners88]

I think people forget Webber had turned his engine down in this instance. Its a bit like McLaren at Turkey '10 when Lewis was cruising in fuel save mode and this message hadn't been relayed back to Jenson. Then again I don't believe Jenson is the type of person who would create such an uncomfortable situation by ignoring a direct instruction and indeed didn't once it became clear.

[henners88]

Did you even see the race?

It just confirms that you didn't see the race.
Do you honestly think that type of response in any way devalues someone else's opinion here? We've all seen the race.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think people forget Webber had turned his engine down in this instance.

Mark drove his fastest lap on lap 45 with a mirror full of Vettel. He was attacked at the beginning of lap 46. How can he drive the fastest lap with a turned-down engine?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Do you honestly think that type of response in any way devalues someone else's opinion here? We've all seen the race.

Then tell me how is it possible to say that Vettel was never near Mark when he was from lap 26 to lap 28? That's what Ranger claimed and I call bull****. Where's the problem?

[henners88]

Then tell me how is it possible to say that Vettel was never near Mark when he was from lap 26 to lap 28? That's what Ranger claimed and I call bull****. Where's the problem?
I've just realised we are again going over something we have discussed to death, I share some of the blame. My opinion hasn't changed and yours probably hasn't either. I'm not answering this question again so if that's what you consider a cop out then I'm all heart broken about that. Not really. On wards to China and a thread discussing something relevant. :)

[Malbec]

Fortunately its not really down to Vettel to decide who deserves to win and who doesn't. That is a pretty arrogant stance IMO.

Indeed, team orders specifically exist to prevent teammates from deciding for themselves who 'deserves' the win.

I've read the full interview and Vettel should quit F1 and become a politician, he'd be far better in that role. More intellectual twists and turns than Monaco.

A top level F1 driver claims he doesn't understand a team order when he's given one despite being able to discuss and adapt complicated strategies on the fly. He apologises afterwards to Webber then today concedes that he had little to apologise for and had he not misunderstood he'd have done it anyway.

Again I'd have a modicum of respect for Vettel left if he told us that 7 points can make or break a championship and he just couldn't let it go (which is the real reason he went for it). When Senna was questioned about his aggression he retorted that if you don't go for every gap then you are no longer a racing driver, he had the guts to be straight in his answer. Vettel would rather play silly games as to whether he broke team orders or not. He's still a kid.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Again I'd have a modicum of respect for Vettel left if he told us that 7 points can make or break a championship and he just couldn't let it go (which is the real reason he went for it). When Senna was questioned about his aggression he retorted that if you don't go for every gap then you are no longer a racing driver, he had the guts to be straight in his answer. Vettel would rather play silly games as to whether he broke team orders or not. He's still a kid.

Back in the day of Senna, the media weren't all over the place yet like these days and big corporations were sponsors, not running the teams. This doesn't make the load of rubbish Vettel prattled after the race any better, but that's what drivers are trained to be these days. Mark and Kimi are two of the few 'old school' drivers, who say what they think, but most drivers are now trained to name all sponsors in every interview and keep up a nice facade. When was it that a driver last time criticized the team for effing things up? Jenson and Lewis took McLaren's ineptitude last year without so much as a snort, even though The team's pitstop blunders cost them truckloads of points each.
A man like Senna would have given them a piece of his mind, while these days drivers are trained to keep up a facade.

[Dave B]

I don't normally bother with the pit lane channel, but for China and Bahrain I think I'll give it a try (it's on the BBC red button for the former, I believe, as well as Sky "race control"). I hope FOM broadcast all of Red Bull's messages to their drivers - it could get very juicy!

[jens]

In my interpretation the phrase "Webber didn't deserve to win" means that Vettel believes he had better pace and would have overtaken him anyway in a straight fight - if I remember correctly, his strategy was such that he had better tyres for the last stint.

Anyway, I disagree with Vettel's arrogance in this case. But these things can happen to drivers. I remember, how the generally likable Trulli went nuts, when he crashed with Sutil in Brazil 2009. He hadn't calmed down even two weeks later in pre-race press conference. What we see in Seb's case is what can happen if you are very successful at a very young age.

Very basically the message he sends is that he doesn't need allies on track and he can conquer all by himself. So he isn't concerned if Webber races against him hard, he is determined to come out on top. The gloves are off, let's do what we want - maybe this is the kind of additional challenge Vettel wants in competing for his 4th title. I remember Alonso and to a smaller extent Hamilton went through a similar phase in late 2000s - to hell with all, I will force my will through.

But let's take the Ferrari situation - the dynamic of Alonso and Massa now. Despite Massa being considered as a subservient driver, both drivers seem to get along fine. Massa has no qualms about supporting Alonso in the right circumstances. This is where an ally on track becomes beneficial. But life has always lessons for us to teach. One day Vettel will be forced to improve his attitude as well - he will realize it is useful to have allies and good trusting relationships on the racing circuit.

Could be interesting. But could be a storm in a teacup as well with the rest of the season bringing us very little on that front, while we get sucked into other situations/problems/scandals/whatever. To Horner's credit I have to say that despite him being often being portrayed as 'weak', he has managed to keep these two uncompromising drivers together for five seasons already. Mansell-Piquet, Prost-Senna, Prost-Mansell and Alonso-Hamilton couldn't stand each other for more than 1-2 seasons.

[CNR]

Red Bull F1 driver battle intensifies (http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8641150)
Sebastian Vettel intensified his fight with Red Bull teammate Mark Webber on Tuesday, saying the Australian hurt the team in the past so he did not deserve consideration in the Malaysian team orders affair.
Vettel revealed at the Chinese Grand Prix that his decision to ignore team orders and pass Webber in the closing stages of the Malaysian race was "indirectly" related to past incidents when he felt Webber went against the best interests of the Formula One team.
"There was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't," Vettel said.
Asked if that was why he ignored the team orders, Vettel replied: "Indirectly so."

[Ari]

How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car? If anything, Malaysia proved that RB only care about the constructor points and impairing one of thair cars would be colosally stupid.
Agree with this.


Vettel caught up on the two laps between their last stops. When Mark came out of the pits after the last stop he barely managed to stay in front only then came the "multi21", so Vettel was in "striking distance" before the team order was given.
Mark cannot have backed off at any significant rate, as both drove their respective best laps on lap 45 and the fight started at the beginning aof lap 46. Mark backed off when Vettel was past. He dropped back by 2 seconds almost immediately.
Yes but Vettel should not have been given the chance to get that close in the first place. Mark was about 7secs ahead when Seb pitted first and got the undercut on Mark. Why did Seb pit first? Because the team saw Lewis pit and knew that if they gave Mark first pit stop (as track posution dictated) then Seb would have landed behind Hamilton in third place.

The team thought fast and on their feet for once. Bring Seb in first, so Lewis doesn't get the undercut, and then bring Mark in. Knowing that Mark was in front on track this would give Seb a solid advantage over Mark which was basically unfair. Mark is ahead on track, Mark gets to pit first. THEY are the rules. We all know it. So the team told Seb that the race was over. Seb didn't like this, so went about it his own way. Mark at that stage had entirely backed off.

And of all of this, Seb says Mark did not deserve the win? It's actually the EXACT opposite. Seb got the win because of two things. 1) The team pitted him first when it should have been Mark. 2) Mark had backed off and downed his engine because the team had issued order Multi21. Mark had started to coast and manage tyres, something Seb should have done as well.


That's only half the sentence. He said that Mark doesn't deserve to be given the race because of earlier instances of Mark not being very helpful when asked to - mainly Abu Dhabi and Brazil last year.
Mostly agree with this. HOWEVER, there have also been times Mark has helped Seb.


But I agree with the "eff everyone" attitude. There is a very lengthy Interview with him on Motorsport-Total, which sounds a lot different than Benson's rather biased article. Benson deliberately misquotes several statements. Basically it boils down to these things:

- He said everything that was to say and is tired of repeating it over and over.
- He mistook the Multi21 due to poor audibility for a change of settings. Important messages are usually given more than once, while "multi21" was given only once, so he assumed whatever it was had solved itself, because the message was not repeated.
- He isn't sure if he would have stayed behind had he understood the message properly. He speculated that he might have thought about it, but probably would have overtaken anyways, since he doesn't see any reason to gift Mark a race after the stunt he pulled on him at Brazil.
Not much to add to that, except I am not sure whether Seb is currently running with 'he did' or 'did not' understand the message. It seems to change every couple days. But I'm glad he keeps telling us he's not lying. If he's not lying, he's not a very clever bloke.


Ferrari was raked over the coals for Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 and that were races in the middle of the season. Why are team orders suddenly acceptable as early as the second race?
This one is really, REALLY simple. It has nothing to do with team orders. Mark owned the race and Seb was given pit priority when he should not have been. Simple.

If you want to go one step further, after final pit stops track position stays the same. This is normal for pretty much every team out there. After the last stop, there is no racing on track. It's been like this for some time. It's not about championship points, or where we are in the season. It's about teams not wanting to see their drivers go head to head with 10 laps to go and bin both cars.... red mist style. It's about teams not wanting to see their drivers race hard on tyres and cliff to finish off the podium. We as fans might love it, but it's not great for the teams.

Finally, Seb said nothing about going after Mark. He sat there and pounced on Mark when he was under the advise that the team had finalised the race outcome. At least in Silverstone '11 when Mark got the team order he told the team he would be racing on.... and Seb was advised. Had Seb told the team this, and he got second pit stop then I am all for racing. He would have needed to find Mark at least 10 seconds down the road and get past Hamilton. If he could have done this for the win, then I take my hat off to him. He didn't do this. He ignored the command and then pounced on Mark unknowingly. That is cowardly and arrogant as the entire F1 world agrees.

[Ari]

PS: You're German, I'm Australian. I guess we should just agree to disagree. F1 is interesting again though!!! ;)

[airshifter]

For the record, being from the US I have no bias in either nationality. I've often thought Webber only performs well on occasion, where Seb has been more consistent. But on that day at that race, Webber raced the better race. I completely agree that the pit changes were probably to ensure that Seb came out ahead of Hamilton.

[ShiftingGears]

I have no respect for Vettel and his total lack of fortitude over the past few weeks. I would've respected him more as a man if he just came out and said that he wasn't sorry instead of insincerely blubbering about how sorry he was.

[Koz]

That's only half the sentence. He said that Mark doesn't deserve to be given the race because of earlier instances of Mark not being very helpful when asked to - mainly Abu Dhabi and Brazil last year. But I agree with the "eff everyone" attitude. There is a very lengthy Interview with him on Motorsport-Total, which sounds a lot different than Benson's rather biased article. Benson deliberately misquotes several statements.

Could you post a link please?
This is the only one I could find: Videos - Formel 1 bei Motorsport-Total.com (http://www.motorsport-total.com/videos/f1/5404)

[jens]

I just want to add one thing. Race is a whole 300+ km long process, which all contribute to the final outcome. Regarding Mark's "deserving" win I have to say that somewhere in mid-race Vettel felt he was held up by Webber. Vettel was asked to calm down and maintain a gap, he obeyed to the team order.

Meanwhile Hamilton was right behind him, which contributed to Vettel dropping behind Hamilton after second pitstops. This is why Vettel was 5 seconds behind Webber before the last stop - not due to Webber's superior pace, but due to Vettel following team orders mid-race - not attacking Webber, and falling victim of Hamilton.

Obviously Vettel thought that he had been handicapped by a team order during the race already and wasn't going to obey once again, feeling hard-done.

But of course a pity that Vettel hasn't been able to explain things in a concise way himself. But this is what can often happen to drivers - many of them are hardly philosophers, so we have to understand them beyond their words.

[Whyzars]

How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car? If anything, Malaysia proved that RB only care about the constructor points and impairing one of thair cars would be colosally stupid.

They're all out on track short of fuel and I agree it is stupid. It is an appalling situation that we see this as a "wouldn't do it" rather than a "couldn't do it".

A car does not have to physically have less fuel on board - the pit driver only has to tell the vehicle driver he needs to conserve fuel. The engine dial is the first one I would throw in the bin.




Vettel caught up on the two laps between their last stops. When Mark came out of the pits after the last stop he barely managed to stay in front only then came the "multi21", so Vettel was in "striking distance" before the team order was given.
Mark cannot have backed off at any significant rate, as both drove their respective best laps on lap 45 and the fight started at the beginning aof lap 46. Mark backed off when Vettel was past. He dropped back by 2 seconds almost immediately.



Vettel is quick no doubt and qualifies brilliantly but Webber is driving the same car and is no slouch. Vettel was very lucky he didn't become part of the wall.



Ferrari was raked over the coals for Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 and that were races in the middle of the season. Why are team orders suddenly acceptable as early as the second race?

Team orders will never be acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Vettel has been condemned for taking the cheap win but as much as it irks me I also applaud his instincts. Cross the line in front - perfect result.

If there is a penalty to be dished out, I would make him wash Webber's car before the race on Sunday and then end this...

[steveaki13]

If these two end up on the same row of the grid or side by side in the Race it is going to be fun.

I think Seb should have said all that on the podium in Malaysia instead of that silly apology and I would have had alot more respect for him.

As for Mark, honestly I dont see him being up there with Seb most of the season, so dont suppose it will be an issue most of the year but Its clear Seb has been backed more by Red Bull which is of course no suprise. Any situation that arises will be given towards Seb. i,e tyre strategy and the like.

[CNR]

Could you post a link please?
This is the only one I could find: Videos - Formel 1 bei Motorsport-Total.com (http://www.motorsport-total.com/videos/f1/5404) http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/157695-how-good-vettel-6.html#post1123261

[Ranger]

How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car?

...you were saying?

[donKey jote]

If Webber is able to get off the line and the team don't short fuel his car we might just see some epic battles between this pair.

epic battle avoided by short fuelling the car in qualy...
problem solved, no team orders needed ! :p

[ShiftingGears]

I've made my opinion on Vettel clear in other threads, however regarding the underfuelling I don't believe in the obvious conspiracy theories for a second. Still, great timing.

[Koz]

Webber did not deserve fuel
.

[Koz]

I've made my opinion on Vettel clear in other threads, however regarding the underfuelling I don't believe in the obvious conspiracy theories for a second. Still, great timing.

It is astounding how bad someone's luck be.

[Malbec]

I just want to add one thing. Race is a whole 300+ km long process, which all contribute to the final outcome. Regarding Mark's "deserving" win I have to say that somewhere in mid-race Vettel felt he was held up by Webber.

I actually think that Vettel used the word deserve to include another aspect.

From Vettel's point of view he is the obvious RBR top driver. He has delivered 3 WDC for the team while Webber has struggled even to finish 2nd in the same seasons. It is Vettel that is therefore most likely to represent RBR's best chance of winning a WDC this season. I don't think he particularly respects Mark because he's been able to beat him year in year out despite a lack of experience, and that is ignoring their various run-ins regarding team orders etc (I'm not taking sides on this issue). He probably felt in Sepang that he was therefore entitled to the victory since Mark would only waste the extra points he would gain if he maintained position later in the season (as he has done in the past). His attitude towards his teammate is probably reinforced by the fact that Vettel does seem to receive extraordinary levels of backing from his team. I doubt he views his teammate as a threat in the same sense he views Alonso or Hamilton and he also doesn't view him as a supporter like Alonso views Massa or Hamilton viewed Button.

Arrogant? Perhaps. Understandable? I think so.

Likewise Webber's attitude towards Vettel with respect to team orders when he stands to benefit (ie Sepang) and when he stands to lose (ie Brazil last year) can be seen to be the actions of someone who feels as if he has been dealt the poorer hand, has his confidence damaged and needs to prove himself against his teammate even if this means going against the team.

[markabilly]

I hear you bro. What about secret team orders. ;)


You are just a paranoid old fool. I told you you to stop drinking all that uncle billy's kool-aid in Austin, and you did not listen......next think you will be saying that RB might secretly underfuel him in qualifying to send a message to Webber and avoid anymore "issues" in the China GP :rolleyes:




You mean as to who will have a bit more fuel, so the other runs out of gas first???????

Or as brawn said about team orders: that we would look a bit foolish if we let both cars run out of fuel.......

or who gets the better tire strategy??? or why Webber's car does not always have that great start????

No body would look that fooolish.....




Or the old 'Please don't use your KERS, we think there is a fault' line. Webber has had more than his fair share of these failures in the past or so many of us think ;)

No, it is just bad luck. This China GP weekend will prove that Webber gets full and equal treatment at all times...

[markabilly]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by VettelWebber did not deserve fuel.


Best post of the year!! :D :D :D

I will drink to that :beer:

[markabilly]

I've made my opinion on Vettel clear in other threads, however regarding the underfuelling I don't believe in the obvious conspiracy theories for a second. Still, great timing.


And I never beleived for one second all that silly BS about Flavio Briatore, and those "fix the race allegations". No team manager would ever deliberately wreck out one of his cars "for the good of the team" so another driver on the team could win. No way.

Speaking of Flavio......he said that Horner has no balls. well he should talk....

[Tazio]

I probably should have put this on another thread however; I think that Fred was spot on, and sincere when his comment went public and he let it be known in no uncertain terms that he backed Felipe to stay at the team and referred to projected replacements as "small names" when Flelipe had to produce just to keep his freakin' seat because it ends up those cats were "children of a lesser god" IMHO


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1KtIJq5s4g

[airshifter]

Today before qualification NBC Sports posted a recap of all the "battle" between Webber and Vettel. It included a lot of radio communications that weren't shown during the race, as well as post race interaction between the two.

I will retain all respect for the abilities of Vettel, but Schumacher in his worst days didn't lie as much. Sebastian had no legit attempt at the claim he didn't know better.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Today before qualification NBC Sports posted a recap of all the "battle" between Webber and Vettel. It included a lot of radio communications that weren't shown during the race, as well as post race interaction between the two.

I will retain all respect for the abilities of Vettel, but Schumacher in his worst days didn't lie as much. Sebastian had no legit attempt at the claim he didn't know better.

Link or it didn't happen

[Valve Bounce]

epic battle avoided by short fuelling the car in qualy...
problem solved, no team orders needed ! :p

Team orders superfluous. Next race, Webber will be sent out on three wheels. :p :

[Whyzars]

...Webber will be sent out on three wheels. :p :

Oh sh*t... :eek:

[Ranger]

How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car?

Webber will be sent out on three wheels. :p :

Two from two so far! :\

[steveaki13]

No one said Red Bull would make Mark Crash into a Toro Rosso. :p

[Ranger]

No one said Red Bull would make Mark Crash into a Toro Rosso. :p


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s

[N4D13]

I think someone from Red Bull reads this forum just to think of other possible ways to screw up Mark's race. Otherwise, I can't really see how this happened.

[Whyzars]

I think someone from Red Bull reads this forum just to think of other possible ways to screw up Mark's race. Otherwise, I can't really see how this happened.

Maybe we can start a "Creative ways to screw Webber" thread so they don't have to wade through too many entries. :p

[AndyL]

I think someone from Red Bull reads this forum just to think of other possible ways to screw up Mark's race. Otherwise, I can't really see how this happened.

Maybe Mark broke a mirror with a black cat on Friday the 13th!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Maybe Mark broke a mirror with a black cat on Friday the 13th!

while walking under a ladder...

[Tazio]

I hope Mark didn't get a title something extra on the side this weekend (like one of his good friend Alonso gurlz), because he probably would have had latex failure as well!

[dj_bytedisaster]

I hope Mark didn't get a title something extra on the side this weekend (like one of his good friend Alonso gurlz), because he probably would have had latex failure as well!

"Momma? Why is my brother called 'Dead Deer'?"
"Because your dad killed a deer before we made you. But why do you ask, Ruptured Rubber?"

[donKey jote]

no caption competition ? :p
"this little piggy's going to market" :andrea: :s ailor:

[markabilly]

Team orders superfluous. Next race, Webber will be sent out on three wheels. :p :

You were saying??

Vettelsays: Webber don't deserve 4 wheels.....

[airshifter]

Link or it didn't happen

Search for your own link. It was broadcast on NBC Sports who now hold US coverage rights, and you won't believe it after you see it regardless. Due to that opinion from me, I won't waste any time in attempts to justify what you will probably reject as fact anyway. ;)

[airshifter]

I hope Mark didn't get a title something extra on the side this weekend (like one of his good friend Alonso gurlz), because he probably would have had latex failure as well!

Not likely. Mark would have got very upset and let Seb deal with it. Then in interviews Seb would swear it had nothing to do with team orders, or he never heard the instruction. He would simply say he was faster and deserved the "win". :)