Rally GB aims for fan-friendly route

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2013 Rally GB aims for fan-friendly route :)

Rally GB's route will feature spectator stages again this year as Britain's World Rally Championship round makes a push to reconnect with its fanbase.The 2013 GB itinerary does not allow for a full day of spectator stages, as was once traditional, stately home-style tests will be included in the route for the first time since 1999.

When Rally GB moved to Cardiff in 2000, spectator stages were binned in favour of the superspecials in the docks area and the Millennium Stadium.
Organiser Andrew Coe said the route was being carefully designed to reinvigorate spectator interest.

"We're looking at stately home-style stages which are close to the [English-Welsh] border," said Coe, "and these stages will have huge centres of population - such as Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham - within an hour to 90 minutes driving time.

"We want to bring people back and give them a day out; we want to show them what they've been missing and those spectator-oriented stages are the perfect way of doing that.
"We can offer ease of access and great viewing potential within them."

Rally GB will start from Conwy Castle on Thursday November 14, with a loop of forest stages in the dark planned that evening.

The asphalt Great Orme headland stage will not be used on Thursday night, with the organisers citing safety concerns as the reason.

The Orme will run competitively on the final day (November 17), possibly as the power stage.

[Nornbugger]

I wish them well, but I think they are 10 years too late in wakening up, this event used to be huge, the media couldnt ignore it, and that was even before the wonderful days of the McRae/Burns era. It seems hard to take in how the giant was reduced to a mouse by IMO organisational arrogance. Again IMO rallysport in the UK as a whole has lost out with the decline in stature of GBs WRC event.

I only missed the event once in the 90s and 03 was my last year at the event, I used to plan my holidays and work around getting to the event.
Now I plan my spectating around cheap flights, warmer climates(optional) and more welcoming organisers . Its a shame that one of the best events in the WRC had for a time such a poor attitude to fans.

[General Prim]

I wish them well, but I think they are 10 years too late in wakening up, this event used to be huge, the media couldnt ignore it, and that was even before the wonderful days of the McRae/Burns era. It seems hard to take in how the giant was reduced to a mouse by IMO organisational arrogance. Again IMO rallysport in the UK as a whole has lost out with the decline in stature of GBs WRC event.

I only missed the event once in the 90s and 03 was my last year at the event, I used to plan my holidays and work around getting to the event.
Now I plan my spectating around cheap flights, warmer climates(optional) and more welcoming organisers . Its a shame that one of the best events in the WRC had for a time such a poor attitude to fans.

+1K

[tommeke_B]

Great move!

[noel157]

I wish them well, but I think they are 10 years too late in wakening up, this event used to be huge, the media couldnt ignore it, and that was even before the wonderful days of the McRae/Burns era. It seems hard to take in how the giant was reduced to a mouse by IMO organisational arrogance. Again IMO rallysport in the UK as a whole has lost out with the decline in stature of GBs WRC event.

I only missed the event once in the 90s and 03 was my last year at the event, I used to plan my holidays and work around getting to the event.
Now I plan my spectating around cheap flights, warmer climates(optional) and more welcoming organisers . Its a shame that one of the best events in the WRC had for a time such a poor attitude to fans.

100% correct.

[BDunnell]

Yes, this is coming far too late. But I'm still glad they're doing it, as it's a definite step in the right direction.

[AndyRAC]

Wait until the ticket prices are announced - then we will know if they are serious about saving the event. They have to attract the 'casual' Motorsport fan - will he/she pay £20 to stand in a forest/ field???

[DoubleD]

My hope is that with the reintroduction of 'spectator' stages, they might relax the way they control the forest stages allowing a bit more freedom for the initiated. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation however..
I do applaud the loop in the dark tho...

[Mark]

I read that 'The RAC' was the biggest single spectator event in the UK. Back in the day it was massive, everyone, even people who had no interest in rallying otherwise had heard of the RAC. Ask anyone but rally fans now, they wouldn't have any idea.

[BDunnell]

Wait until the ticket prices are announced - then we will know if they are serious about saving the event. They have to attract the 'casual' Motorsport fan - will he/she pay £20 to stand in a forest/ field???

This is true. Given that, the spectator stages surely have to either be cheap or free.

[BDunnell]

I read that 'The RAC' was the biggest single spectator event in the UK. Back in the day it was massive, everyone, even people who had no interest in rallying otherwise had heard of the RAC. Ask anyone but rally fans now, they wouldn't have any idea.

Ask a lot of motorsport enthusiasts whether they care about the event these days, and I'm sure the response would be similarly negative.

[Mintexmemory]

Ok, so any guesses as to which venues are in the frame? Is Trentham too far east? As far as I can see the number of suitable locations actually within the principality is zero so have the Welsh Assembly accepted that the event must cross into England to regain its appeal?

[irish_tiger]

I wish them well, but I think they are 10 years too late in wakening up, this event used to be huge, the media couldnt ignore it, and that was even before the wonderful days of the McRae/Burns era. It seems hard to take in how the giant was reduced to a mouse by IMO organisational arrogance. Again IMO rallysport in the UK as a whole has lost out with the decline in stature of GBs WRC event.

I only missed the event once in the 90s and 03 was my last year at the event, I used to plan my holidays and work around getting to the event.
Now I plan my spectating around cheap flights, warmer climates(optional) and more welcoming organisers . Its a shame that one of the best events in the WRC had for a time such a poor attitude to fans.


Ask a lot of motorsport enthusiasts whether they care about the event these days, and I'm sure the response would be similarly negative.


Wait until the ticket prices are announced - then we will know if they are serious about saving the event. They have to attract the 'casual' Motorsport fan - will he/she pay £20 to stand in a forest/ field???

Well i think when they are charging £100 for a spectator pass they killed the last bit of life in it - a bit like the the British Rally Championship they killed that as well with entries fees of £1200 + , twelve entries they had for the last round in 2013 The Trackrod Rally which was a day event and as i said i think the entry fee was £1200 ... They should all go out to France and be educated on Rallying and see how to run events and attract spectators . They say that the UK is the home of Motorsport ? well it might have been one time but the Rallying section has moved on the Ferry across to France :(

[go mads]

Ok, so any guesses as to which venues are in the frame? Is Trentham too far east? As far as I can see the number of suitable locations actually within the principality is zero so have the Welsh Assembly accepted that the event must cross into England to regain its appeal?


no. must be in wales. errdig,chirk castle,boddelwyden,powis castle all linked.

[Mintexmemory]

no. must be in wales. errdig,chirk castle,boddelwyden,powis castle all linked.
Well there in lies the rub - none of them have ever been used in the past and I don't buy MN's analysis of their suitability. Certainly not National Trust properties because the NT council is made up of people unlikely to want the Brum Manc and 'Pool populations (supposedly being targetted) from polluting their parish. The whole point of the stately home runs is that people DONT have to travel on the, less than copious, roads into the Welsh hinterlands.

[Mark]

It being sponsored by 'Wales' and entirely in Wales doesn't help. I've heard many news outlets refer to it as "The Wales Rally"

[Paul Hudson]

I think they have lost the plot years ago, i do not think they are actually targeting the right people in trying to attract new spectators from the major cities of Manchester, Liverpool, etc , yes if they charge the usual high price they may make some money to cover the costs, but in the long term they gain nothing for the future of the sport and will be once a year spectators.
They should be trying to attract the people they have lost over the years, the real enthusiasts who love the sport anyway, get them back and they will bring back a few mates or younger relations who are interested and are the potential future of the sport, these are the people that pack the forests for events like the Roger Albert Clark Rally etc.

[AndyRAC]

It being sponsored by 'Wales' and entirely in Wales doesn't help. I've heard many news outlets refer to it as "The Wales Rally"

Exactly!! What is Wales Rally GB?? Is it Rally of Wales? The Welsh Rally..?? You didn't have to be a Rallyfan to know what the RAC Rally was. One of the car mags were giving tickets away to the Welsh Rally..

The deal between IMS and the Welsh Assembly might suit both parties - but is it in the sport/ events best interests? I'm not convinced....

[Mark]

But they might as well call it the Rally of Wales, as that's where it is...

[BDunnell]

Well there in lies the rub - none of them have ever been used in the past and I don't buy MN's analysis of their suitability. Certainly not National Trust properties because the NT council is made up of people unlikely to want the Brum Manc and 'Pool populations (supposedly being targetted) from polluting their parish. The whole point of the stately home runs is that people DONT have to travel on the, less than copious, roads into the Welsh hinterlands.

This is a very good point. I fundamentally believe the event will never recapture any of its past glories until it is held over a significantly longer route, not restricted to Wales.

[BDunnell]

But they might as well call it the Rally of Wales, as that's where it is...

Well, at the moment the event's title indicates the fact that it's GB's round of the championship and is sponsored by Wales. I agree, though, that it's a confusing title to the uninitiated.

[MJW]

My opinion is that bringing the stately homes stages back is a panic reaction to how last year's event was received. People have relatively short memories. At the end of the 1990's there was a clamour to stop these ridiculous stages, remember Tommi 'losing' the championship when he went off on oil dropped by a clubman competitor,before Carlos' car 'catched the fire'? The real problem was / is IMS greed at charging crazy prices. Cynically are IMS hoping that attracting the casual fans from the urban areas of Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool will allow them to charge football Premier league admissions? I honestly beleive that this is too little too late, my guess is that due to Coe and IMS this will be the last WRC GB. Mark my words Brazil is going to get a WRC round, sooner or later.

[BDunnell]

My opinion is that bringing the stately homes stages back is a panic reaction to how last year's event was received. People have relatively short memories. At the end of the 1990's there was a clamour to stop these ridiculous stages, remember Tommi 'losing' the championship when he went off on oil dropped by a clubman competitor,before Carlos' car 'catched the fire'?

Well, they were derided as 'Mickey Mouse' stages for years, but they were hugely popular and I think they played a very important role in (sorry for the naff phrase) bringing the event to the people. No-one would consider Sutton Park, for instance, to be a classic rally stage in its own right, yet it attracted enormous crowds in the rally's heyday — that's only a good thing, in my book. It didn't help that, when the rally became an increasingly Welsh affair, a lot of the more traditional spectator stages — Chatsworth, Trentham, Clumber, Sutton Park and so on — disappeared.

[MJW]

Well, they were derided as 'Mickey Mouse' stages for years, but they were hugely popular .
Yes I agree they were very popular by spectators they were, teams and drivers not so.

[BDunnell]

Yes I agree they were very popular by spectators they were, teams and drivers not so.

I tend to feel that the former's needs ought to hold sway.

[AndyRAC]

Now we get into a discussion of who the event is for? Who is the customer? The teams, or the spectators? Or both? And who comes first, if so?

The sport has been run to the benefit of the teams in the last 10+ years - and look were we are.
The teams/Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. So you would think that they would want the greatest possible reach - to sell their 'product'. I just can't see Joe Public from Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester travelling 90+ mins to watch the event.

The changes are likely to be too late......but we wait until they are announced.

[BDunnell]

Now we get into a discussion of who the event is for? Who is the customer? The teams, or the spectators? Or both? And who comes first, if so?

The sport has been run to the benefit of the teams in the last 10+ years - and look were we are.
The teams/Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. So you would think that they would want the greatest possible reach - to sell their 'product'. I just can't see Joe Public from Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester travelling 90+ mins to watch the event.

The changes are likely to be too late......but we wait until they are announced.

Such things have to be run with the public in mind. Put bluntly, what's the point if no-one's watching?

[Fly_Half]

If Brazil gets an event, Italy and/or Greece will be dropped before Rally GB.

[MJW]

Smart money is on two less European events in 2014 as the championship becomes a 12 round series. Are you basing the GB is less likely to be dropped than Italy and Greece on national bias? Ok Greece as a country has financial difficulties but last year the organisers made a great effort to run a very good event that was well received by the teams.

[AndyRAC]

Smart money is on two less European events in 2014 as the championship becomes a 12 round series. Are you basing the GB is less likely to be dropped than Italy and Greece on national bias? Ok Greece as a country has financial difficulties but last year the organisers made a great effort to run a very good event that was well received by the teams.

And they both get huge crowds......
RallyGB has been trading on it's, or the RAC Rally history.....as that is all it has going for it. Well, until the route is actually revealed.

[Fly_Half]

Smart money is on two less European events in 2014 as the championship becomes a 12 round series. Are you basing the GB is less likely to be dropped than Italy and Greece on national bias? Ok Greece as a country has financial difficulties but last year the organisers made a great effort to run a very good event that was well received by the teams.

No, Italy and Greece both scored significantly lower than GB by the FIA. I'm not saying GB has been a roaring success of late mind. Also factor in that the UK is Europe's most important market for the 'hot-hatch' sector, which is what Rally cars are broadly aimed at if we're talking about Rallying as a marketing tool for selling cars.

And I was in Italy in 2012, probably an equivalent amount of fans as GB in most places we were at.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If they put the events on in spectator-friendly places then the people WILL come.

I know that in Liverpool whatever has been put on from the 2008 Capital of Culture onwards has been very well supported.

In terms of motorsport there was a fantastic turnout in the city for the Pageant of Power demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTH1euFo_OI

There used to be stages at Oulton Park, Knowsley Safari Park, Aintree and Haigh Hall which were all hugely popular.

This is the best way to remind the general public about rallying - like cycling has done here recently.

[trickydicky]

You really would think we were dealing in rocket science here. The arrogance, stupidity, ineptitude and out right incompetence of the people in charge of the World Rally Championship over the last 15 years, and the RAC/Welsh Rally/Swansea Stages in particular, beggars belief. The RAC Rally was the biggest single event live spectator draw in UK sport at the beginning of the 1990's, bigger than Wimbledon, The Open golf and whatever else you can think of that I haven't. This was in the days when Jimmy McRae and Russell Brookes were largely cannon fodder, Pentti Airikkala was considered a local and Colin McRae was wrapping Sierra's around trees, i.e without major home interest. And yet, they threw it away. For people to watch the event you have to have it at least somewhere near them, and the opening day spectator stages did that, at the cost of about £5 per car for a spectator, and some red faces for drivers who crashed on them. Having millions watching on day one legitimises the 3 days spent on hill sides in the middle of nowhere with a few thousand hardy petrol heads braving hypothermia. Covering a large part of the country also helps, there are only so many people who live in the hilly parts of mid Wales, if you stretch it out through Northern England and Southern Scotland you get a few more. All this is simple logic. The decision to move it all to Wales was a kick in the nuts for all the events loyal English and Scottish fans. Three of my uncles, and sometimes my dad, used to trapes out into Grizedale every year, they are all mechanics and into cars, now none would know the event was being held, never mind who was in it and what they might be driving. By having effectively about 5 stages run 3 times each reduces the events reach still further. And when no-one turns up people scratch heads. Someone needs to get in charge say "thanks Wales but we aren’t the vehicle for you to push for independence" and get the event out into Sutton Park, Chatsworth, Donnington, Tatton Park and Knowsley, the Lake District, Kielder, South Scotland and Yorkshire, and watch it grow. And then, when they allow decent cars in again we might end up somewhere.

It sounds like a rant, and it is a rant, but being a rally fan over the last 20 years has been like as if 11 a side outdoor football was banned and replaced with 5 a side, in sports halls, for £150 a head. Its just a joke.

And Italy. The San Remo Rally used to cover a good portion of Northern Italy, within reach of Turin, Milan, Genoa, Florence, Bologna, you know, where people in Italy live. Then it was reduced to 'a rally on a circuit' or what ever the called it on about 4 stages directly outside of San Remo, and then they put it on an island that is by its very nature hard to get to. Jeezo! This is Italy, everyone likes cars there, and they still made a hash of it. What hope have they got anywhere else?!

[BDunnell]

I see very little with which to disagree in the above post. All I'd add is that the decline of the British Rally Championship has gone side-by-side with the decline of Britain's round of the WRC. This, too, saddens me greatly. The British Open series was, in its heyday, really something, and the events were well-attended too. That has also been thrown away. No wonder the sport is at such a low ebb.

[Brynmor Pierce]

Must be honest, this thread is such depressing reading...the negativity it mind blowing on it!!

Spectator pens:
I've been to the last 4 WRGB's and all in the 80's and 90's....I've not once been asked to stand in a pen!! be sensible and be safe and everyone is happy.

Spectator stages:
The ones possible being used this year haven't been used before but, Kinmel camp which is oooh all of 200 mtrs from Bodelwyddan castle certainly has...

Attracting people:
I'd agree the stage prices are a touch high, £15 max would be more realistic.

Route:
Now this is what I never understand. One can only presume that those saying 'it should go here,there,everywhere' and 'it should use more stages'...don't understand the following.
The Police/general public simply wouldn't stand for the kind of on road driving the old style event required....the press would have a field day now if cars were mounting pavements/driving hard shoulders etc.
Forestry costs are simply mental, around £670 per mile 1st use and roughly £400 second use...so lets do 200 mile 1st use that's around £135k just on forestry fees, before you add in insurance/permits/medics the list goes on and on.

Put simply the route is cost effective and managed at a level that is sustainable in the 21st century, (incidentally the Roger Albert Clark uses an almost identical template but for the cars)...

Please please people appreciate what we've got , make constructive ideas but the constant looking back has to stop...

[trickydicky]

Must be honest, this thread is such depressing reading...the negativity it mind blowing on it!!

Spectator pens:
I've been to the last 4 WRGB's and all in the 80's and 90's....I've not once been asked to stand in a pen!! be sensible and be safe and everyone is happy.

Spectator stages:
The ones possible being used this year haven't been used before but, Kinmel camp which is oooh all of 200 mtrs from Bodelwyddan castle certainly has...

Attracting people:
I'd agree the stage prices are a touch high, £15 max would be more realistic.

Route:
Now this is what I never understand. One can only presume that those saying 'it should go here,there,everywhere' and 'it should use more stages'...don't understand the following.
The Police/general public simply wouldn't stand for the kind of on road driving the old style event required....the press would have a field day now if cars were mounting pavements/driving hard shoulders etc.
Forestry costs are simply mental, around £670 per mile 1st use and roughly £400 second use...so lets do 200 mile 1st use that's around £135k just on forestry fees, before you add in insurance/permits/medics the list goes on and on.

Put simply the route is cost effective and managed at a level that is sustainable in the 21st century, (incidentally the Roger Albert Clark uses an almost identical template but for the cars)...

Please please people appreciate what we've got , make constructive ideas but the constant looking back has to stop...

It is hard to be positive, and not look back, when the past was so much better than the present in every regard. I admit that I had never taken into account what you said regarding the expense of effectively hiring a load of forests for the weekend. So, taking into account that I will try to be constructive and propose what I would like to see in a 'RAC' Rally of Great Britain within the modern constraints of the World Rally Championship, with a few tweaks here and there. Firstly, it makes sense to have rally's over the weekend, rather than the old start on Sunday, run through the week format the RAC used to follow, as most people will be at work otherwise. So we are already limited to 3 days, if we start on Friday afternoon, which isn't long if you want to pack in spectator stages, Wales, Kielder area and Yorkshire. To start with I would base the rally somewhere fairly central to all those areas, like Chester or somewhere similar, and start out from there on the Friday lunch time. From there they could have a loop through Wales, 3 stages first like Dyfnant, Gartheinog and Dyfi before a service at Dollgellau and then Penmachno and a couple in Clocaenog. Then, with it being Friday night they could do a live TV stage in the dark on the Great Orme road. Night stages are an essential part of what makes rallying stand out from other forms of motorsport, and a well advertised slot on Friday night could do well. Then they could start out early on Saturday with a couple of spectator stages, somewhere like Oulton Park and Knowsley, fairly close to Manchester and Liverpool and ideal for a dad to take his son to on Saturday morning before the football. From there they could have service in Chester again before moving on to the Lakes and doing Grizedale south and north and then one of Wythop or Greystoke, and then on to a service halt in Carlisle. By this time in November (it has to be in November, no debate there) it would be getting dark and they can move on to Kielder for 4 stages, 2 to the west say Kershope and Newcasleton, and 2 to the east with a service in between. Kielder is a famous name in rallying circles and the night leg through was almost the RAC's version of the Col du Turini to an extent. A live night stage on a Saturday from Kielder I'm sure would be a decent TV draw. It wouldn't be easy, but I'm sure it could be worked out. Then they could overnight in Hexham and on Sunday do Hamsterley, a couple of the North Yorks stages, a service, a couple more of the North Yorks stages, the last of which could be televised around Sunday lunchtime, before heading back to Chester for the prize giving.
By my count that gives 21 stages and about 370km of competition. Not long, pretty short even by modern standards, but with scope for the history of the event to be taken into account, a much broader area of potential spectators to be attracted, live stages and night time rallying. It also gives plenty of time between stages so that nobody has to worry about the Police looking for a PR scoop. Of the 21 stages 17 at around 220 miles worth are in forests and with your prices I would put the expense of that at circa £150,000, hardly breaking the bank, and easily coverable by any event sponsor.

I can always dream I supppose.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

http://m.facebook.com/walesrallygb?id=105010216258023&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FC4aoaoubKK&_rdr#!/photo.php?fbid=434080886684286&id=105010216258023&set=a.121274954631549.24704.105010216258023&refid=17

[OldF]

Firstly, it makes sense to have rally's over the weekend, rather than the old start on Sunday, run through the week format the RAC used to follow, as most people will be at work otherwise.

So we are already limited to 3 days, if we start on Friday afternoon, which isn't long if you want to pack in spectator stages, Wales, Kielder area and Yorkshire. To start with I would base the rally somewhere fairly central to all those areas, like Chester or somewhere similar, and start out from there on the Friday lunch time. From there they could have a loop through Wales, 3 stages first like Dyfnant, Gartheinog and Dyfi before a service at Dollgellau and then Penmachno and a couple in Clocaenog. Then, with it being Friday night they could do a live TV stage in the dark on the Great Orme road. Night stages are an essential part of what makes rallying stand out from other forms of motorsport, and a well advertised slot on Friday night could do well.

Then they could start out early on Saturday with a couple of spectator stages, somewhere like Oulton Park and Knowsley, fairly close to Manchester and Liverpool and ideal for a dad to take his son to on Saturday morning before the football. From there they could have service in Chester again before moving on to the Lakes and doing Grizedale south and north and then one of Wythop or Greystoke, and then on to a service halt in Carlisle. By this time in November (it has to be in November, no debate there) it would be getting dark and they can move on to Kielder for 4 stages, 2 to the west say Kershope and Newcasleton, and 2 to the east with a service in between. Kielder is a famous name in rallying circles and the night leg through was almost the RAC's version of the Col du Turini to an extent. A live night stage on a Saturday from Kielder I'm sure would be a decent TV draw. It wouldn't be easy, but I'm sure it could be worked out.

Then they could overnight in Hexham and on Sunday do Hamsterley, a couple of the North Yorks stages, a service, a couple more of the North Yorks stages, the last of which could be televised around Sunday lunchtime, before heading back to Chester for the prize giving.

By my count that gives 21 stages and about 370km of competition. Not long, pretty short even by modern standards, but with scope for the history of the event to be taken into account, a much broader area of potential spectators to be attracted, live stages and night time rallying. It also gives plenty of time between stages so that nobody has to worry about the Police looking for a PR scoop. Of the 21 stages 17 at around 220 miles worth are in forests and with your prices I would put the expense of that at circa £150,000, hardly breaking the bank, and easily coverable by any event sponsor.

I can always dream I supppose.

That would be a traditional RAC route. Can you estimate the total length of the route? Could it be realistic to include at least the stages in the Lake District and Kielder with a start and finish in Wales? Wales is sponsoring the rally but if they could agree to have the start in Carlisle, which I doubt, it would make the route shorter.

Looking at total distance and stage distance from juwra.com**|**Rallies - Great Britain (http://www.juwra.com/great_britain.html) the total distance in the 80´s and beginning of 90´s was between 2145 km (1981) – 3465 km (1985), mostly between 2300 km – 2600 km. The stage distance was between 494 km (1987) – 869 km :eek: (1984), mostly between 500 km – 600 km.

In 1981 the organiser managed to squeeze in 747 stage km into a total distance of 2145 km total distance.

Below are the itinerary for 1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992.
1988:

Sunday – Thursday, 52 stages
Planned stage distance: 604.43 km (21.5% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 604.43 km (21.5% of total distance)
Road section distance: 2,200.66 km
Total distance: 2,805.09 km

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/RACroute1988_zps02222b3e.jpg

1990:

Sunday – Wednesday, 41 stages
Planned stage distance: 566.27 km (24.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 566.27 km (24.0% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,792.50 km
Total distance: 2,358.77 km

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/RACroute1990_zpsd8ac52ed.jpg

1991:

Sunday – Wednesday, 37 stages
Planned stage distance: 565.51 km (24.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 565.51 km (24.0% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,789.80 km
Total distance: 2,355.31 km

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/RACroute1991-1.jpg

1992:

Sunday – Wednesday, 34 stages
Planned stage distance: 567.80 km (23.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 534.77 km (21.7% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,928.74 km
Total distance: 2,463.51 km

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/RACroute1992_zpsdc927a0e.jpg

[Allyc85]

Must be honest, this thread is such depressing reading...the negativity it mind blowing on it!!

Spectator pens:
I've been to the last 4 WRGB's and all in the 80's and 90's....I've not once been asked to stand in a pen!! be sensible and be safe and everyone is happy.

Spectator stages:
The ones possible being used this year haven't been used before but, Kinmel camp which is oooh all of 200 mtrs from Bodelwyddan castle certainly has...

Attracting people:
I'd agree the stage prices are a touch high, £15 max would be more realistic.

Route:
Now this is what I never understand. One can only presume that those saying 'it should go here,there,everywhere' and 'it should use more stages'...don't understand the following.
The Police/general public simply wouldn't stand for the kind of on road driving the old style event required....the press would have a field day now if cars were mounting pavements/driving hard shoulders etc.
Forestry costs are simply mental, around £670 per mile 1st use and roughly £400 second use...so lets do 200 mile 1st use that's around £135k just on forestry fees, before you add in insurance/permits/medics the list goes on and on.

Put simply the route is cost effective and managed at a level that is sustainable in the 21st century, (incidentally the Roger Albert Clark uses an almost identical template but for the cars)...

Please please people appreciate what we've got , make constructive ideas but the constant looking back has to stop...

Finally some common sense!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Could it be realistic to include at least the stages in the Lake District and Kielder with a start and finish in Wales? Wales is sponsoring the rally but if they could agree to have the start in Carlisle, which I doubt, it would make the route shorter.
Wales might be sponsoring the rally, but it's still the Wales Rally of Great Britain. The organisers would probably understand having stages across the border, and may even be agreeable to the idea if they're as keen on attracting more spectators with a fan-friendly route as they say they are.

After all, we've already seen the Rally Sweden cross over into Norway for a few stages this year (and in previous years), and Rally Germany is starting in Cologne with the cars driving through the night - and taking on a stage or two - on the way to Trier. So it probably could be done.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

N Wales rally base confirmed in Deeside !"

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Rally GB picks Deeside as new base in moves to north Wales - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107045)

[makinen_fan]

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00003812)

[Mintexmemory]

Prices 'slashed' from £130 to £99 - i.e. Put back to 2011 prices because they finally found the point of diminishing returns. It remains to be seen how much the stage prices are and whether they are going to distiguish between the traditional stages and those with 'spectator facilities'.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"...the move to North Wales has a number of significant advantages. Most importantly, perhaps, we are closer to the sport’s traditional heartlands, some iconic rally forests, as well as being within a short drive of some of the larger conurbations in the UK such as Liverpool, Manchester and the Midlands."

" Taking those factors into account, as well as our new ticket pricing policy which is designed to cater for both hardcore rally fans and a wider family audience, we are confident that the 2013 Wales Rally GB will be a highlight on the motor sport calendar.”

Cant argue - it makes sense on all levels... :)

I cant wait - WRGB based less than 15 miles from me now !! :bounce:

[makinen_fan]

I cant wait for the route to be announced. Press release says it will be ready by end of May.

They also mention that new pricing policy will be introduced, but so far it only seems to be the same as 2011. Let's wait and see, and hope for a change for good this time!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It shows how far we still have to go when there is no mention of this news on the BBC Sport website... :(

In fact to find it at all I had to look under News; Wales; North East Wales... how well hidden is that ??!!! :rolleyes:

BBC News - North East Wales (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales/north_east_wales/)http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/22290596

[AndyRAC]

To be perfectly honest - why would they mention it?? It's not a 'National' sporting event.......

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Prices 'slashed' from £130 to £99 - i.e. Put back to 2011 prices because they finally found the point of diminishing returns.
That's what you get when you let the tourist board run things. They want people to come to Wales when it is sunny and enjoyable, so that sensible people can have a sensible vacation at a sensible price. What they have completely ignored is that rally fans are not sensible people. Where the idea of standing around a freezing Welsh forest at four in the morning to get splattered with wet, slushy mud from a passing rally car would likely have the tourist board looking aghast, they clearly don't understand that to a rally fan, that's half the fun.

[Mintexmemory]

That's what you get when you let the tourist board run things. They want people to come to Wales when it is sunny and enjoyable, so that sensible people can have a sensible vacation at a sensible price. What they have completely ignored is that rally fans are not sensible people. Where the idea of standing around a freezing Welsh forest at four in the morning to get splattered with wet, slushy mud from a passing rally car would likely have the tourist board looking aghast, they clearly don't understand that to a rally fan, that's half the fun.

Absolutely, the planning, the open air cooking etc. The other thing that 'marketing' companies can't get into their heads (though they keep trying) is that rally fans are not circuit racing crowds or concert goers and not prepared to be treated like cattle when they can find alternative access to the stages.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Now all we have to do is hope for a good route. The relocation to Deeside should help in that respect. Everyone wants to see a return to the classic forest stages of yesteryear, and I count myself among them, but I also think that the move to Deeside creates a unique opportunity to make some modern classics.

Abandon all of the stages that were first run after the rally moved to Cardiff, and replace them with new stuff. Balance that against the likes of Clocaenog and all the good old stuff, and make an entirely new event out of it. After all, that's the point of moving to Deeside. No-one wants to see the same route as has been run in previous years, with the only difference being that the rally is based in Deeside, rather than Cardiff. That's the kind of decision the tourist board makes.

The 2011 route should be a good starting point: 2011 Wales Rally GB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wales_Rally_GB#Special_stages)

[Fly_Half]

I've heard that most of Clocaenog is out of bounds due to a Windfarm development going in there...

[noel157]

Have they actually started building the new w/farm yet? Thought they were still arguing over it.

[Brynmor Pierce]

Cloccy as of yet isn't wholly out of bounds , I wouldn't worry too much yet

[MJW]

If what I hear is true, route will be a good one. Shame Bulldog Rally of NW didnt run, but I suspect Cambrian will have a good entry ;-) oh and its a bit late for Citroen and VW to enter the Plains now.

[Mintexmemory]

If what I hear is true, route will be a good one. Shame Bulldog Rally of NW didnt run, but I suspect Cambrian will have a good entry ;-) oh and its a bit late for Citroen and VW to enter the Plains now.

Don't we get the official announcement today? - The Plains stages were always going to be 'in' - I'll be at Sweet Lamb bowl on Saturday

[MJW]

Don't we get the official announcement today? - The Plains stages were always going to be 'in' - I'll be at Sweet Lamb bowl on Saturday
Friday apparently for official announcement.

[makinen_fan]

Let the planning for the 2013 event begin! My sixth in a row, cant wait for it. I hope all those promises for a better route to be finally fullfilled

[Mintexmemory]

Let the planning for the 2013 event begin! My sixth in a row, cant wait for it. I hope all those promises for a better route to be finally fullfilled

We should meet up! I'll be wearing my 'sick dogs' XXL t-shirt ;) - I'm doing shakedown to finish this year for only the 2nd time.

[makinen_fan]

We should meet up! I'll be wearing my 'sick dogs' XXL t-shirt ;) - I'm doing shakedown to finish this year for only the 2nd time.

Yes we should meet at some point with our sick dog t-shirts :p . I will be doing the whole event as well.

I wanted to do Plains rally as well as a 'warm-up' but cost is too high for just 2 stages.

[Mintexmemory]

Yes we should meet at some point with our sick dog t-shirts :p . I will be doing the whole event as well.

I wanted to do Plains rally as well as a 'warm-up' but cost is too high for just 2 stages.
Well I'm travelling from Ludlow to Sweet Lamb on Saturday morning (aiming to arrive at about 11 am) and there is space in the car if you want to join me and and my lady friend if I'm passing anywhere near you (starting from Travelodge at Woofferton). Just doing the one stage but will catch the Historics and the 1400 class fields as well.
PM me if you are interested

I guess from your flickr pics that you are London-based so the route from Ludlow to Sweet Lamb won't be passing near you! (Wondered why Dim liked the post!!)

[makinen_fan]

Well I'm travelling from Ludlow to Sweet Lamb on Saturday morning (aiming to arrive at about 11 am) and there is space in the car if you want to join me and and my lady friend if I'm passing anywhere near you (starting from Travelodge at Woofferton). Just doing the one stage but will catch the Historics and the 1400 class fields as well.
PM me if you are interested

I guess from your flickr pics that you are London-based so the route from Ludlow to Sweet Lamb won't be passing near you! (Wondered why Dim liked the post!!)

Indeed i am London-based. I send you a PM now about the Plains rally, many thanks for offering that.

I do not know about dimvii :p Appreciating your kind offer maybe ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Friday apparently for official announcement.
Probably a good thing - most of the motorsports media has been concentrated on the McLaren-Honda deal that was announced last night.

Though the decisions to wait until Friday was probably more incidental than intentional.

[306 Cosworth]

Lookin forward to hearing what the route is. I'll be happy if hafren is kept in the route. Off to thenPlains Rally myself this morning so hopefully they announce stages in gartheiniog and Dyfi again.

[Kielder]

Dyfnant & Sweet Lamb (obviously Great Orme too) are on the route. Only a few hours to the announcement of the whole itinerary.

[Doon]

Do we know which day Dyfnant is on yet? I'm excited :)

[MartijnS]

Voiceofrally:

Hafren, Sweet Lamb, Myherin, Dyfnant, Dyfi, Gartheiniog, Penllyn, Penmachno, Clocaenog, Gwydnr, Great Orme all included. 3 night stages!!!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

But which three?

[Kielder]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BKdzD3GCUAEPCw9.jpg:large

[MartijnS]

Thursday the 3 night stages?

[Mintexmemory]

Thursday the 3 night stages?
Yes Gwdyr, Cloc and Penmachno - then all repeated on Sunday

[Kielder]

Thursday the 3 night stages?

It looks like you're right. That's what Rally of Portugal did in 2012. The difference is that Gwydyr and Penmachno will be in the itinerary on Sunday too.
I forgot to write that there are two more stages to be announced.

[makinen_fan]

Yes Gwdyr, Cloc and Penmachno - then all repeated on Sunday

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BKdq2eMCEAEyRml.jpg
according to this Clocainog is not repeated on Sunday

[MJW]

It looks like you're right. That's similar to Rally Portugal in 2012. The difference is that Gwydyr and Penmachno will be in the itinerary on Sunday too.
I forgot to write that there are two more stages to be announced.
According to the document above it refers to Spectator stage A in Mid Wales on saturday and Spectator stage B in Mid Wales on Sunday - I think it may be Powis Castle near Welshpool?, makes sense from looking at the map, with maximising the draw from the population bases for the weekend - hopefully after the media and nightly tv coverage have encouraged casual spectators out.

[Kielder]

My guess is those will be the two stately homes / historc houses type spectator stages. I think one run on thusday afternoon in daylight as stage 1 before the rally starts properly and a repeat again for Sunday to draw the families and casual spectattors out.

Now we can see on the image that makien_fan posted that the first one will be on Saturday and the other one on Sunday. You're right that those will be the spectator stages.

[makinen_fan]

Yes one is in Mid-wales and the other North-Wales. Any ideas what those may be?

[Kielder]

According to the document above it refers to Spectator stage A in Mid Wales on saturday and Spectator stage B in Mid Wales on Sunday - I think it may be Powis Castle near Welshpool?, makes sense from looking at the map, with maximising the draw from the population bases for the weekend - hopefully after the media and nightly tv coverage have encouraged casual spectators out.

You edit fast, but I caught you :p .

Now we can start to make our plans. Some friends of mine live in Cardiff, so most likely I'll go there to follow the rally one or two days.

[Mintexmemory]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BKdq2eMCEAEyRml.jpg
according to this Clocainog is not repeated on Sunday

My mistake - of course that is to make time for the spectator stage!

[Mintexmemory]

Well that looks compact and testing - no doubt the FIA stewards will complain about the lack of 5 star accommodation, I'm genuinely excited. I have my accomodation booked at Halkyn for Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday nights and just the one in-car 'slumber' on Friday night, Dyfnant I think.

Ticket price news?

[Kielder]

BTW, Great Orme as the last stage & PS of the rally will be very interesting. I can imagine that the helicopter camera won't lose the track of Ogier through the stage :) .

[makinen_fan]

Well that looks compact and testing - no doubt the FIA stewards will complain about the lack of 5 star accommodation, I'm genuinely excited. I have my accomodation booked at Halkyn for Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday nights and just the one in-car 'slumber' on Friday night, Dyfnant I think.

Ticket price news?

33 a day, 10 a stage and 100 the pass of all the rally (cant remember exactly but more or less something similar)

[makinen_fan]

BTW, Great Orme as the last stage & PS of the rally will be very interesting. I can imagine that the helicopter camera won't lose the track of Ogier through the stage :) .

he will not have a reason to crash his car this time ;)

[Mintexmemory]

BTW, Great Orme as the last stage & PS of the rally will be very interesting. I can imagine that the helicopter camera won't lose the track of Ogier through the stage :) .

If he doesn't hit a wall!! :uhoh:



I see I'm not the only one to have thought that!!

[Mintexmemory]

• Adult admittance to individual forest stages reduced to £15* (from £20 in 2012).
• Day Passes re-introduced providing multiple stage access for just £33*.
• Extension of the 'Kids for a Quid' scheme to provide those aged between 9-15 years old with a four-day ticket giving access to all 24 stages for just £1*.
• Children aged 8 and under admitted free.
• Individual tickets for the RallyFest Stages priced at £25* with significant discounts available for families. The price for two adults and two children is £42* with an extra £1* for each additional child.

No mention of Shakedown or Service park charges yet.
These remaining tickets will go on sale on Friday 7 June

[Kielder]

he will not have a reason to crash his car this time ;)

He doesn't need a reason. He can do it naturally, like in Poland 2009 ;) .

[makinen_fan]

He doesn't need a reason. He can do it naturally, like in Poland 2009 ;) .

In my mind his crash in Great Orme back in 2011 was some kind of payback to Citroen for showing him the door. And for the rest of the rally he was driving like a grandma. I was extremely disappointed by him.

[jbmarcus21]

Wales Rally of GB road program map https://twitter.com/planetemarcus/status/335386694301921280/photo/1

[Mintexmemory]

In my mind his crash in Great Orme back in 2011 was some kind of payback to Citroen for showing him the door. And for the rest of the rally he was driving like a grandma. I was extremely disappointed by him.

Except, of course when he won the Power Stage, just to emphasise to Citroen just what he had been doing ;)

[A FONDO]

In my mind his crash in Great Orme back in 2011 was some kind of payback to Citroen for showing him the door. And for the rest of the rally he was driving like a grandma. I was extremely disappointed by him.

I agree he crashed on purpose in Wales but why disappointed with that? Is it better to swallow it and fall back on his knees like for example Sordo?

[makinen_fan]

I agree he crashed on purpose in Wales but why disappointed with that? Is it better to swallow it and fall back on his knees like for example Sordo?

I was disappointed in the sense that I wanted to see Ogier pushing hard in the stages for victory and fighting with Loeb, JML, Mikko. But he was just driving around like any other 2nd class driver.

@Mintexmemory Thanks for reminding me that, forgot about that detail

[Brynmor Pierce]

QUOTE=Mintexmemory;1132800]Well that looks compact and testing - no doubt the FIA stewards will complain about the lack of 5 star accommodation, I'm genuinely excited. I have my accomodation booked at Halkyn for Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday nights and just the one in-car 'slumber' on Friday night, Dyfnant I think.

Ticket price news?[/QUOTE]

Halkyn indeed, where are you staying as I live in the next village !!

regarding the unannounced parts of the route I think people will be pleasantly surprised when they do find out in due course....must say exciting times for this part of Wales as we also have Rally of the tests starting from Mold two weeks before aswell...

[Prisoner Monkeys]

This might sound like an odd request, but does anyone know where I might be able to see maps of the Gwydyr and Penmachno stages (or all the stages to be used)? They both pre-date me by some time; Gwydyr was last run twenty years before I was born, while Penmachno was discontinued when I was very young. I'm curious to see what they look like.

[Brynmor Pierce]

Google earth is possibly your best bet, there are different ways you can run the stages..

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Yeah, I found the forest and the roads running through it, so it's a start.

[noel157]

This might sound like an odd request, but does anyone know where I might be able to see maps of the Gwydyr and Penmachno stages (or all the stages to be used)? They both pre-date me by some time; Gwydyr was last run twenty years before I was born, while Penmachno was discontinued when I was very young. I'm curious to see what they look like.

Imagine there is video from the Cambrian rally of the Penmachno stage on Youtube and a map on the Cambrian organiser's website (I haven't looked).

[Karukera]

If he doesn't hit a wall. I see I'm not the only one to have thought that!!

Yep but Honi soit qui mal y pense. :D

[Mintexmemory]

QUOTE=Mintexmemory;1132800]Well that looks compact and testing - no doubt the FIA stewards will complain about the lack of 5 star accommodation, I'm genuinely excited. I have my accomodation booked at Halkyn for Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday nights and just the one in-car 'slumber' on Friday night, Dyfnant I think.

Ticket price news?

Halkyn indeed, where are you staying as I live in the next village !!

regarding the unannounced parts of the route I think people will be pleasantly surprised when they do find out in due course....must say exciting times for this part of Wales as we also have Rally of the tests starting from Mold two weeks before aswell...[/QUOTE]

Travelodge!! - Booked before the route was announced I'm there on the Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday nights. £64 total!!! Many years ago I worked for Courtaulds who owned the Halkyn Haffren mining company which was a water source for their viscose plant (which I had to audit a number of years after the plant had shut down and become a business park) - I also stayed there in 2011.
Maybe a beer one evening? ;)
Regarding the unannounced route I am interested to know which locations but on the days in question I'll still prefer the forests or the Orme. BTW I understand that Penmachno on Sunday will be the power stage (semi-official source)

[306 Cosworth]

Looking at Google Maps, Gwydyr looks pretty interesting. Some open bits in there and some in the trees. Think i'll go in there on the Sunday. Not a fan of Penmachno since my last visit on the 2011 Cambrian Rally. Very narrow and rough stage.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

'Making the event more attractive to the wider audience now within easy visiting distance of the rally, both Saturday's and Sunday's schedule will include a family-oriented 'spectator stage' designed to bring the breath-taking action closer to the public. Details of these two very accessible venues will be confirmed in the coming weeks.'

Anyone have any ideas what/where these are likely to be ? Stately homes, race-tracks, street-stages ?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I seem to recall the organisers saying something about running a parklands stage, the kind they used to se in the 1980s to let people get close to the cars. They were very popular, even fi the drivers hated them.

However, I think it will be a brand-new stage, rather than an old one revived.

[Mintexmemory]

I seem to recall the organisers saying something about running a parklands stage, the kind they used to se in the 1980s to let people get close to the cars. They were very popular, even fi the drivers hated them.

However, I think it will be a brand-new stage, rather than an old one revived.

There is a lot of rumour circulating but the most common ones are for 2 stately home / parkland surrounding a national monument - type stages. If the one that I've heard of for the double run on the Sunday comes off it will be mostly tarmac with short 'cut' sections across the pasture. Clearly this will mean the tyre choices will be problem if the proposed schedule of SS / Gwrdyr / Penmachno / SS / Great Orme is followed - 2 gravel, 3 tarmac.

[Kielder]

Powys Castle and Kinmel Hall are expected to be announced as the spectator stages :) .

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Powys Castle and Kinmel Hall are expected to be announced as the spectator stages :) .

Not exactly close to the big urban areas of N.England or W.Midlands ... :(

I was hoping for the stately homes around Cheshire or Oulton Park... :rolleyes:

[Brynmor Pierce]

Kinmel hall is 20 minutes from Chester/1hr 20 from Manchester (tops) and 35-40 mins from Oulton Park/Liverpool...all on dual carriageway? Powys castle is around an hour from Birmingham/40 mins from Telford....

[Mintexmemory]

Will everybody just shut up about Powis Castle until it is confirmed. Any NT property needs the approval of the board of Trustees before it can be hired out. These people don't inherently 'get' rallying so it would be prudent to keep a low profile untilthe venue is in the bag or they might just get complaints from NIMBY NT members!

[Kielder]

It was mentioned on Motorsport News & Autosport. I wrote the information here because there are many people on this forum interested in these stages. I'm sorry if I did something wrong. This post and the previous one can be deleted. :|

[Mintexmemory]

It was mentioned on Motorsport News & Autosport. I wrote the information here because there are many people on this forum interested in these stages. I'm sorry if I did something wrong. This post and the previous one can be deleted. :|
Not directing any anger at you K - Sorry if it sounded like that. As you say, it is now public domain so I'm not so far self-absorbed to start deleting posts. Fact of the matter is all the leaks in advance of the announcement just shows how uncontrollable the grapevine is!! Once certain people know a piece of interesting info they don't seem to be able to rest until it's gone viral. Coe should've prepared an embago announcement for the motor sport press and that would've stopped rumours appearing in the press and being spread as fact. As far as I know (and have done for six weeks) Powis is only one of a number of National Trust properties under consideration. It took years for the NT to accept summer rock concerts in addition to their traditional classical events, just a few NT board members get lobbied by the locals who won't want the rally invasion and the whole proposal could be vetoed.
It isn't Powis until it appears on the WRGB website! Keep your fingers crossed (even though I won't spectate there myself it will keep a lot of tourists away from the forests ;) . On a bright note Kinmel is nailed on as they need all the revenue they can get!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Got to admit I've never heard of Powys Castle or Kinmel Hall before ...

In the old days they used the likes of Chatsworth & Sutton Park because I think everyone knew them and where they were.

I'm sure real rally fans will travel but if you want the general public to get interested they have to be closer and well-known.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Got to admit I've never heard of Powys Castle or Kinmel Hall before ...
I believe the plan is for these spectator stages to be entirely new stages, the idea being that they will be a modern take on an old concept. Or something else that is adver-spin.

[Mintexmemory]

I believe the plan is for these spectator stages to be entirely new stages, the idea being that they will be a modern take on an old concept. Or something else that is adver-spin.

The difficulty faced by the organisers is that the type of Stately Home that used to be an essential part of the GB WRC event is a very rare commodity in mid and north Wales. Kinmel estate is one of the few not in National Trust ownership! All of the stages that used to run in England (Racecourses, Stately Homes, Safari Parks and Theme Park estates) were all in private ownership or (as in the case of Sutton Park) were under control of a local authority that wanted a tourism input. Margam park fits that profile but there just aren't many equivalents elsewhere, Kinmel was in a single family ownership until last year and not open to the public. When they couldn't afford the upkeep it was sold to a company for conversion to a hotel. Clearly this is a revenue stream for them while they are progressing the conversion. It has a number of parkland roads which can be combined with the estate woodland tracks (cover for deer) to produce a decent stage. I f you look at the OS map of Powys Castle there is not sufficient existing road to make a decent stage so some artificial grass tracking will be needed and that could be the sticking point. As Powis (and virtually all similar properties in this part of Wales) is under the National Trust ownership anything that causes damage to the grounds is likely to be opposed by parts of their admin not connected with marketing. It has been said that the NT is run solely as a meeting club for the aging upper middle class in the UK , as I have said before, not the natural friends of rallying when it might interfere with their genteel pursuits

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is it the case that they want all the stages to be in Wales and not going into England at all ?

It is still Wales Rally GB after all ...

[Mintexmemory]

Is it the case that they want all the stages to be in Wales and not going into England at all ?

It is still Wales Rally GB after all ...
Absolutely, got to be 100% xxxxx (insert any non-perjurative term to describe the adjective for matters concerning the extreme westerly prominence of the island of Great Britain.)

[AndyRAC]

Absolutely, got to be 100% Taffy

It actually needn't be like that - for example, next years Tour de France will have 3 stages in the UK, backed by 'Welcome to Yorkshire' - with stage 3 running from Cambridge - London....

They need to look at the 'bigger picture'.

Personally, as Jerry Willaims says in his latest MaxRally column - a new sponsor really needs to be found - and newer 'non Welsh' stages can be used; which can only improve the event.

However, what we have this year looks a huge improvement - time will tell whether the changes are a success.

[Mintexmemory]

Yes it would be great to find a new sponsor prepared to take Rally GB back to the new / old stages - has Jerry W found a magic lamp? Remember 2011 was meant to be the year of the return to northern Britain - it didn't happen and as I see it the economic situation remains the same regarding sponsors queuing up to be associated with rallying in the UK. I think the best we can hope for is that the proposed event is a big success; a) to safeguard the UK round in the calender and b) to encourage future innovation / new sponsors.

[makinen_fan]

Rally goes back to the future | The Sun |Sport|Motorsport (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/motorsport/4948548/Rally-goes-back-to-the-future.html)

[Fly_Half]

Taffy

Oh dear Phil, I expect a whole-hearted apology next time I see you!

There, fixed that for you ;) (could have been worse though Rhod :) )

How many pints of whole-hearted apology will it take?

[306 Cosworth]

Oh dear Phil, I expect a whole-hearted apology next time I see you!

There, fixed that for you ;) (could have been worse though Rhod :) )

How many pints of whole-hearted apology will it take?

Rhod you big wimpy Taff ;)

[MartijnS]

Timing: http://gallery.mailchimp.com/4f77c64c602ee311b5bf81f89/files/1.0.pdf

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Kinmel Park & Chirk Castle confirmed !

[Doon]

Just when I go and think they go it right, the put Dyfnant 1 & 2 on different days!! WTF, this is stupid! Can someone please tell me if there is a point to this?

[rallyfiend]

That's a lot of driving for not much competition.

No day time visit to the service park?

[Mintexmemory]

Just when I go and think they go it right, the put Dyfnant 1 & 2 on different days!! WTF, this is stupid! Can someone please tell me if there is a point to this?

Yes it concentrates people into the more easily controlled paying stages because you have less to see if you visit Dyfnant on any single day
With regard to Fast Eddie's post Chirk is 'announced' not 'confirmed' as there was no public metion of it before!! So what happened to Powys?? If you look at the maps Chirk has even less existing track than Powys - my advice to the cogniscenti - avoid it like the plague!!
This is a disappointing schedule from the point of view of the rally fan however the tarmac stage of the Orme on worn forest tyres should be interesting!!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With regard to Fast Eddie's post Chirk is 'announced' not 'confirmed' as there was no public metion of it before!!

Dont think they would 'announce' it if it wasnt 'confirmed' ... thats the last thing they would need, to have to cancel and tell everyone the spectator stages are somewhere else...

Its probably why its taken so long as the organisers wanted to make sure of things before they make the big announcement.


And the Official Site says : Route Information - Full Route Confirmed! ;)


I'm not impressed with the choice of spectator stages but just having them up here is a step in the right direction... :)

[Mintexmemory]

Dont think they would 'announce' it if it wasnt 'confirmed' ... thats the last thing they would need, to have to cancel and tell everyone the spectator stages are somewhere else...

Its probably why its taken so long as the organisers wanted to make sure of things before they make the big announcement.


And the Official Site says : Route Information - Full Route Confirmed! ;)


I'm not impressed with the choice of spectator stages but just having them up here is a step in the right direction... :)

Given that everyone was certain Powys was to be confirmed, and no one had mentioned Chirk (hence no supposition could be confirmed) it is a semantic nicety that something can be only be announced if not previously the subject of debate. By the way those of us who had the inside track actually knew Chirk was under discussion 2 months ago ;)
The Dyfnant split is a complete surprise to me though (and unwelcome as I'd intended to be there on Saturday)

[Doon]

Im staying near Dyfnant so i guess i'll just make a day of it. Hopefully a big entry list and the nationals will keep us entertained. Do we know which stages the nationals will visiy?

Was shocked to see Llandegla as QS, ive done mountain biking up there many times and thought it would make a nice stage. I guess Oneplanet Adventure will be closed for the day as it would be hard to control with the cyclist crossing forestry roads. Might even get some snow up there in november :)

[SubaruNorway]

I was thinking about going this year but not anymore...

Why no service in the middle of the day making it nearly impossible to see more than two stages a day and almost forcing people to see the spectator stages they way it's set up. Looks more stressful than fan friendly to me.

[rallyfun]

Is it rallysprint or what? 10 out of 22 SS are less than 10km long...

[AndyRAC]

There's no pleasing some people.... ;)

The organisers were damned if they did, and damned if they didn't.
However, I'm less positive now than I was a few weeks ago. I don't think it's as testing for the drivers as it could have been; certainly in terms of mileage - and having Dyfnant over 2 days isn't ideal. Saying that - I'll be out watching as usual. Our one chance to see the best drivers in the UK.


I do think some of the reaction towards the new route has been OTT - particularly from the journalists.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Having the spectator stages on days 3 & 4 could mean that people miss seeing some big names if there are serious accidents or mechanical issues forcing some cars out on days 1 & 2 (especially the night stages on Thursday could cause havoc) ...

I suppose its done this way as its the weekend but it could be an embarrassment if there are only a couple of top WRC cars surviving by then...

Back in the day most of the spectator stages were on the first day of the RAC Rally which was a Sunday.

[Brynmor Pierce]

Im staying near Dyfnant so i guess i'll just make a day of it. Hopefully a big entry list and the nationals will keep us entertained. Do we know which stages the nationals will visiy?

Was shocked to see Llandegla as QS, ive done mountain biking up there many times and thought it would make a nice stage. I guess Oneplanet Adventure will be closed for the day as it would be hard to control with the cyclist crossing forestry roads. Might even get some snow up there in november :)

Llandegla was a very popular rally venue for years and indeed our club ran a night rally there in 2007...it was all but lost to rallying when the two wheeled crew moved in there but this seems good news indeed...

[Juha_Koo]

I was thinking about going this year but not anymore...

Why no service in the middle of the day making it nearly impossible to see more than two stages a day and almost forcing people to see the spectator stages they way it's set up. Looks more stressful than fan friendly to me.

"Fan friendly" in official context is about entertaining the average joes and not the enthusiasts. Unfortunately.

[makinen_fan]

Really disappointing itinerary. The route is fine but why rush thing so much both on Saturday and Sunday.

Sunday is impossible to watch more than one stage.Saturday, you are basically forced to stay in a single stage and then risk to go to Kirk Castle, or switch stage and watch just 2.Friday is the only tried and tested route and is fine, but it has been the same for a number of years now.

All this to me have to do with the selection of Deeside as service park, which is too far away from stages.

[MartijnS]

Don't think its that bad. Extra stage on Thursday is good, even though it's in the dark.
Friday 2 stages.

Saturday it should be possible to go from Gartheiniog 2 to Dyfnant if you leave after the WRCs and definitely possible to go to Chirk Castle or why should that be impossible?

Sunday from Dyfnant to Great Orme should be possible too I think?

So my guess: QS/Shakedown, 1 stage on thursday. 2 on friday, 3 or 4 on saturday and 2 on sunday. So 8 or 9 stages should be possible? Not bad, last year: QS, 2 on friday, 2 on saturday and 2 on sunday.

Gonna miss Epynt though!!

[Mintexmemory]

Don't think its that bad. Extra stage on Thursday is good, even though it's in the dark.
Friday 2 stages.

Saturday it should be possible to go from Gartheiniog 2 to Dyfnant if you leave after the WRCs and definitely possible to go to Chirk Castle or why should that be impossible?

Sunday from Dyfnant to Great Orme should be possible too I think?

So my guess: QS/Shakedown, 1 stage on thursday. 2 on friday, 3 or 4 on saturday and 2 on sunday. So 8 or 9 stages should be possible? Not bad, last year: QS, 2 on friday, 2 on saturday and 2 on sunday.

Gonna miss Epynt though!!

Garth to Dyfnant is 50 min drive under ideal conditions - factor in the walk at both ends and it's going to be tight especially if there are more than 12 WRC cars. Lots of planning time to go until November ;)

[Fly_Half]

Garth to Dyfnant is a surprisingly long drive and will probably take you over an hour.

[Mintexmemory]

Garth to Dyfnant is a surprisingly long drive and will probably take you over an hour.

Clearly any day there is a rally in town is not going to be 'ideal conditions'!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ITV4 to show two 30 min progs on Fri & Sat of WRGB :)

[Brynmor Pierce]

Thought i'd post a cheeky message on here....if anyone is looking for a co-driver for either the International or National event...(the national event would be easier for me logistically)

Looking for a seat on the above, lots of experience on the main stages being used , very local to the service park so can sort accommodation and secure storage.

Would be happy to consider main event or either national event.

Give me a call

Thanks
Brynmor 07952 592445 [:Y:]

[Mintexmemory]

Thought i'd post a cheeky message on here....if anyone is looking for a co-driver for either the International or National event...(the national event would be easier for me logistically)

Looking for a seat on the above, lots of experience on the main stages being used , very local to the service park so can sort accommodation and secure storage.

Would be happy to consider main event or either national event.

Give me a call

Thanks
Brynmor 07952 592445 [:Y:]
Best of Luck BP

[306 Cosworth]

Really unhappy with the Sunday selection of stages. Even more so that the Dyfnant car park closes early Saturday evening and doesn't reopen until 5am. What's the point in that?! And only world rally pass holders will have access to Penllyn.

[Mintexmemory]

Really unhappy with the Sunday selection of stages. Even more so that the Dyfnant car park closes early Saturday evening and doesn't reopen until 5am. What's the point in that?! And only world rally pass holders will have access to Penllyn.

So they are going to evict all the motor homes etc. to make them pay 2 stage entrance fees. It'll end in tears!! As for Penllyn -it doesn't have a fence around it ;)

[306 Cosworth]

Where would you park for Penllyn though Phil?

[Mintexmemory]

Where would you park for Penllyn though Phil?
PM because the sneaky swines have cut off the road from Vernwy!!

[makinen_fan]

The Chirk Castle and Kimnel Park stages has been revealed, a bit disappointing if you consider how big the place is and how tiny are the spectator areas.
http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4f7 ... 7a272a8d12 (http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4f77c64c602ee311b5bf81f89&id=644137e139&e=7a272a8d12)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV5Mq5e ... ata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV5Mq5eS20w&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

On Sunday, the only way to watch more than one stage is to go to Kinmel Park, which might be a disaster as I see it.

[Talbot]

Agreed, we were planning to go to Dyfnant 2 on Sun am, but it would be cutting it fine trying to get to Great Orme afterwards :( . Unless you only watch the top five cars

[rallyfun]

Agreed, we were planning to go to Dyfnant 2 on Sun am, but it would be cutting it fine trying to get to Great Orme afterwards :( . Unless you only watch the top five cars
Is this what they call fan-friendly route? This rally getting worse and worse each year.

[Mintexmemory]

Agreed, we were planning to go to Dyfnant 2 on Sun am, but it would be cutting it fine trying to get to Great Orme afterwards :( . Unless you only watch the top five cars
Is this what they call fan-friendly route? This rally getting worse and worse each year.

It could have been so different but I suspect they are going for a big financial hit without thought about future sustainability. I posted (can't remember if it was here or on a different forum) as soon as Chirk and Kenmal were announced, that a cursory glance at the OS map showed the limitations of those locations. Now the stage details have been release I think it will be hell for the real fan. Herding into limited designated spectator areas with the prospect of rug rats running around and crashing into you every 5 mins! :hmph:
I shall overnight at Dyfnant to take in the Sunday run and by my calculations I can see all the WRC cars (probably only 10 by Sunday) and hopefully Kubica v Evans before leaving to get to Gt Orme in time. It is difficult to see how the World Rally Pass will give value for money as the schedule leaves little time to do more than 1 location on Friday and Saturday. I'm sure some guys may get lucky with the traffic but North Wales' roads on the Sunday Morning could well be hell.

[rallyfun]

Agreed, we were planning to go to Dyfnant 2 on Sun am, but it would be cutting it fine trying to get to Great Orme afterwards :( . Unless you only watch the top five cars
Is this what they call fan-friendly route? This rally getting worse and worse each year.

It could have been so different but I suspect they are going for a big financial hit without thought about future sustainability. I posted (can't remember if it was here or on a different forum) as soon as Chirk and Kenmal were announced, that a cursory glance at the OS map showed the limitations of those locations. Now the stage details have been release I think it will be hell for the real fan. Herding into limited designated spectator areas with the prospect of rug rats running around and crashing into you every 5 mins! :hmph:
I shall overnight at Dyfnant to take in the Sunday run and by my calculations I can see all the WRC cars (probably only 10 by Sunday) and hopefully Kubica v Evans before leaving to get to Gt Orme in time. It is difficult to see how the World Rally Pass will give value for money as the schedule leaves little time to do more than 1 location on Friday and Saturday. I'm sure some guys may get lucky with the traffic but North Wales' roads on the Sunday Morning could well be hell.
Agree. I don't get it what was wrong with route from 2005-2010 and why they call this year's route fan-friendly. It's unfriendly in every way and as you pointed not value for money. I wrote last year that some one lost the plot with prices and route, I have seen less people in Dixies than on Sunseekers stages. Also including stages with limited or no access to public ( last years) is just ridiculous as well as Chirk and Kenmal circuit style stages that have nothing to do with rally. Organizers can't simply deliver value for money and quality of stages with easy access and good view, instead they rip you off and catlle in small unatractive zone.

[Talbot]

Unfortunately, (or maybe it's a blessing) I can't 'do' the whole event.
As such, I was looking at Sat & Sun day passes. But the way the stages have been scheduled, as we've already said makes it difficult to get to more than one. Especially on the Sunday. :angryfire
At the moment, I'm only thinking about getting day passess for insurance incase a particular planned stage get cancelled.

[Rallying UK]

WALES RALLY GB: Explore this interactive image, giving you a day-by-day preview of Wales Rally GB 2013:

https://www.thinglink.com/scene/437322506492182529#tlsite

[miniwintz]

Could you please stop spamming to your site on every post you make ?

[MarkWRC]

From a welshman It's just a joke now,the route is poor but what everyone must understand is the word fan friendly in rallying conjures up all kind of bad thoughts, what there trying to say is bring your whole family and let your kid run round screaming,and listen to idiot who won't shut up on a loud speaker who tells you everything but who's leading oh and we will even put you in a pen for the day 100ft from the stage. There killing it for the proper rally fans, but they haven't so far and won't stop me from doing what I like.

[Juha_Koo]

Nice news from Finland, Jukka Korhonen will drive in Wales with DS3 R3T in WRC3. :) His drive in Wales is supported by Citroen Racing, the car comes from Autosport Technology like in BRC. Usual codriver Marko Salminen on the right seat.

[EightGear]

70 entries according to rallye-magazin.de