Team Orders

[steveaki13]

In light of the two sets of team orders we saw in the Malaysian GP this morning I wanted to gauge the attitude here on team orders.

Lets not get into slagging off particular teams or drivers, but lets look at the merits of team orders and historic use of team orders and If we think they have a place in F1.

We have seen teamorders from a strategy point of view, a championship point of view, a bringing the sport into disrepute view and ignored team orders view.

Then they were banned for a few years.

Lets talk. :p :

[markabilly]

ban

[wedge]

I don't have a problem with it.

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

[markabilly]

okay, ban teams, not orders

[AndyL]

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

Indeed. I think a lot of fans wish that team orders didn't exist, but we have to recognise that, like drug abuse or slavery, banning it does not make it go away. It's better that it be in the open.

Webber tacitly admitted in the post-race interviews that he had complied with team orders during the time they were banned.

[steveaki13]

I don't have a problem with it.

Only way of banning it is running single car teams.

Neither do I on the whole.

The teams put up the money and pay the drivers and it is a team sport.

There are ways which make it better or worse. The Oz 98 or Austria 2002 are the ways not to go about it.

[steveaki13]

Indeed. I think a lot of fans wish that team orders didn't exist, but we have to recognise that, like drug abuse or slavery, banning it does not make it go away. It's better that it be in the open.

Webber tacitly admitted in the post-race interviews that he had complied with team orders during the time they were banned.

Its where team orders end I suppose. I mean in times when orders were banned, and a team had 2 cars running 1 stop and 2 stop, there would always be codes to stop one driver ruining the others strategy.

[markabilly]

Like I said in the other thread

I think that fair is fair, and webber should have won. :D

OTOH, while not appearing to be as dangerous as it used to be, it is still dangerous out there. You take any driver who puts it all on the line, and got to where he is by not backing off but going for it, risking his life for glory and victory. Do you think that he is going to be peeing in his panties merely from the fear of some relatively minor consequences from ignoring some team order from someone in sitting in an armchair???

He might obey, just as a tiger does in a circus, but it ain't natural.

Never has been and never will be.....

[A FONDO]

It is not important if team orders are oficially banned/persecuted or not. If the common opinion (fans and independent media) is against them, teams will not even think to use them in this multi-million sport, you can be sure about that. What I am dissatisfied with is how many people congratulate that spineless Rosberg and criticize Vettel for "taking unneeded risks".

[dj_bytedisaster]

I remain of the opinion that bothe the Vettel and Rosberg discussion wouldn't be had, if the teams had common sense enough not to apply team orders this early in the season. I understand the use of them in the later races, when the title is on the line, but in the second race?
I also would understand at Monaco, where an overtaking manovre is most likely to end in the armco, but not on the widest track in the calender with two huge arse straights with prime overtaking spots.

[Dave B]

I hate team orders but it's a necessary part of the sport so long as there are two championships. If Vettel/Webber or Hamilton/Rosberg had crashed fighting each other today, they'd have lost invaluable points.

[steveaki13]

Its funny that although all of todays action leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, it actually adds an edge to F1 I think.

Imagine in China if the Red Bulls Lock out the Front row. Not many would miss that charge to Turn 1.

F1 as we know is always throwing up strange and alarming situations, but F1 thrieves on action and incident.

[Mark]

As long as there are teams then team orders must be permitted. If you want team orders to be banned then you must first limit teams to running only one car.

[Nem14]

The teams put up the money and pay the drivers and it is a team sport.

The teams get their money from advertisers (sponsors). The advertisers sign on based on how the team has performed in the past. Front running teams garner those advertises willing to pay to be up front in the races. Those same advertisers also want drivers that have name recognition and will be good spokesmen for the advertisers products.
No doubt, a lot of people have to do a good job to put the car on the grid.

But, team orders still SUCK. With team orders it's no longer a sport because the best driver on that team that day didn't finish in a position based on merit. Instead it's all just advertising and politics.

[markabilly]

As long as there are teams then team orders must be permitted. If you want team orders to be banned then you must first limit teams to running only one car.

well, that was my point....

Problem is that as i said, drivers are extremely competitive. Otherwise they are not where they are.

I know how I would feel if told to obey some team order that kept me from winning.

Hell, when I coached girls volleyball and they were ten years old girls---when it came to team orders, they would fight about who got to start and even who got to serve first.....and they stayed that way until they graduated from high school-- :mad:





Set that aside, it is a sorry state of affairs in F1, that even if we set aside egos, we must have team orders.

Why? Listen to the radio transmissions carefully. The issues with fuel and tires mandate that cars go not as fast as possible, but slow as possible.

otherwise they run out of both.

When webber was passed by vettel, he was on the slower tire compound, not the faster one like vettel, and both were running out of fuel.

This is as why the lead car tends to run in front of a group, because the leader can not just go as fast as possible because otherwise, he will run out of tires and/or fuel.

I say bring back refueling and let them race as fast as possible........ :vader:

[Valve Bounce]

Who would think that we would have another Senna vs Prost war again in this wonderful world of F1?

Bring it on, I say!! Bring it on!! At least it will keep me awake.

[henners88]

No fan wants to see an artificially controlled race, but its also a team sport. I think team orders work well for any team as long as both drivers are in agreement. Nico complied and after the race didn't appear bitter about the events. Its not something I want to see regularly from Mercedes as like any fan I want to see actual racing, especially from my favourite drivers. In the case of Red Bull I think yesterday demonstrated Vettel is fine with team orders as long as they go his way. We can give examples of Webber 2 years ago until the cows come home, but this situation really should be fully understood by both drivers by now. For team orders to work, they need full cooperation from everyone involved.

[Valve Bounce]

Mark Webber will take some time out and go surfing. On reflection, I think this is more an issue with Horner than the drivers. Dealing with this in a mature manner will be telling on Horner - maybe he will trade drivers with Mercedes or McLaren, or Ferrari. I try to be serious, but cannot help but jest. I need help!! :(

[dj_bytedisaster]

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??

[Valve Bounce]

Good point!! It has been described as a poisonous relationship. On that, I have to agree.

[Ranger]

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??

And if Webber had rolled out the red carpet in Brazil, do you think Vettel would somehow have decided not to cheat him yesterday? :laugh: :\

Webber stated publicly before Brazil that he would not give way to Vettel. Whilst he eventually did concede, at least he is a man who can keep his word.

Vettel, on the other hand, agreed not to pass after the final set of pit stops.

First he demanded Mark be moved out of the way.

Then after the final pit-stops he moved ahead anyway...

Then he claimed he didn't know about team orders...

Then he admitted he did and passed anyway...

Then said he was sorry... presumably only because he got caught out by the media.

And yes, it is Red Bull's fault that they have procured a driver who now knows he is above the team.

[henners88]

Out of Vettels three Championships two wnt down to less than 10 points. Did they really think that he's going to give away 7 free points in the second bloody race of a season to a driver who was everything but helpful in last year's finale? What the heck were RB thinking??
I didn't agree with the criticism Mark got in Brazil last year because its very difficult to give your team mate a place when bunched up at the first corner with every other driver trying to get past. Webber was tough on Vettel like he was to every other driver in that situation and felt the criticism he got from a minority of fans was just petty. Its not new news that these guys don't particularly like each other, but they have both helped each other out on track in the past and respect that both can be unbeatable on their day.

[airshifter]

I personally don't like team orders, but since they can't be properly policed they may as well be legal as they are now. In the case of Sunday I think both teams were actually just trying to preserve the cars and/or fuel, and in that instance I don't really have issue with it. But I would still much rather that the cars had both fuel and tires to actually race.

The US coverage showed both Horner and Brawn with their heads in their hands when the on track whining and action was taking place between team cars. It was priceless!

[Valve Bounce]

I personally don't like team orders, but since they can't be properly policed they may as well be legal as they are now. !

I think that team orders will continue in F1, as you say. They have been around since the days of Fangio, have bobbed up many times since, and I fully agree there is no sensible way to control it. When you have two really good drivers in a team, both capable of winning races, how can one driver agree to give away a win if it might cost him the championship at the end of the year? And we have Hamilton at Mercedes, Kimi at Lotus, Alonso at Ferrari who are all capable of winning races and scoring maximum points, it is really tempting for any driver to grab maximum points in any race, whatever it takes.

[Zico]

Does anyone think Red Bull will chastise Vettel for blatantly ignoring team orders? I'm not sure they will but I think they really need to, no driver is bigger than the team.. or at least shouldn't be.
Banning him for a race, as has been suggested, is not in the teams best interests. Telling Seb to let Mark past near the end of the next race to even things up again would probably be the best solution.... but if he chose to also ignore that they would have no other choice other than to sack him.

Tricky situation for RB?

[Knock-on]

I hate team orders but it's a necessary part of the sport so long as there are two championships. If Vettel/Webber or Hamilton/Rosberg had crashed fighting each other today, they'd have lost invaluable points.

I think there should only be a drivers championship but that would not improve the team order bit but make it worse with 2nd drivers playing only a rear gunner role and being a lot less considerate during overtaking.

Nobody apart from the teams and clear #1 drivers like team orders. However, when it's impossible to seperate team orders from a team sport, you really must question why people get angry about it. Just a waste of time.

[wedge]

If there were no team orders F1 would certainly be more boring.

The inter-team rivalry is one aspect which makes the sport truly fascinating. Prost v Senna is one of the all time great rivalries in the world of sports.

The win at all cost mentality is in some cases like an anthropological/psychological study - the length and depths drivers will sink low to get what they want. Alonso being a perfect example but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

[Malbec]

but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

Not as cheeky as Ron Dennis who in the aftermath of the accident arranged a meeting with Honda execs and asked them "ever seen a cripple win a world championship? Neither have I." It wasn't a coincidence Honda switched soon after.

[Malbec]

Nobody apart from the teams and clear #1 drivers like team orders. However, when it's impossible to seperate team orders from a team sport, you really must question why people get angry about it. Just a waste of time.

In addition we ought to remember that team orders are legal because its impossible to ban them. Even yesterday RBR didn't initially refer to team orders but to an anonymous code, Multi-21 which sounds like an engine mapping setting. Had Vettel stuck to the plan we could have guessed there were team orders in play but we wouldn't have known for certain.

Likewise when team orders were banned there were all sorts of shenanigans with odd pitstops to favour one teammate over the other or the infamous "Fernando is faster than you, do you understand?" rubbish.

If you want to be insanely purist then split strategies should also be banned when they are opposed by the drivers who may feel that they have been given the one thats less likely to succeed.

Its not pleasant to watch but team orders have always been part of F1, its just that sometimes its better hidden than at others. There really isn't that much point getting stressed over the issue.

[steveaki13]

I agree with most above.

I was thinking today at work and thought about this.

I wonder if teams are more strict on team orders now, because F1 has become more on edge now through cost cutting.

I mean now. As soon as a team has a position in the bag, they turn it all down quicker these days as Engines, Gear Boxes and Tyres are so delicate they dont want 1 second more stress than needed.

Maybe F1 with less restrictions is the answer.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Ban team orders and if they can't... Ban the constructors championship, who cares about that anyway... There's no driver who cares about the constructors championship, all they want is to be P1 in the drivers standings after all.

[airshifter]

Does anyone think Red Bull will chastise Vettel for blatantly ignoring team orders? I'm not sure they will but I think they really need to, no driver is bigger than the team.. or at least shouldn't be.
Banning him for a race, as has been suggested, is not in the teams best interests. Telling Seb to let Mark past near the end of the next race to even things up again would probably be the best solution.... but if he chose to also ignore that they would have no other choice other than to sack him.

Tricky situation for RB?

It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

[Zico]

Ban the constructors championship, who cares about that anyway... There's no driver who cares about the constructors championship, all they want is to be P1 in the drivers standings after all.

What about the constructors themselves, don't they also deserve to get something from F1?
F1 would die.. or at best end up as a one make series if you had your way.

[Zico]

It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

You and I both.. ;)

"Watson said Horner's authority had been undermined by Vettel and called on the team boss to take action.
"If Christian Horner doesn't reassert his authority in the team - because he has been totally subjugated by Sebastian Vettel yesterday - then his position in the team is not exactly the role it is designed to be," said Watson.
"The only conclusion I can reach is that Vettel should be suspended for the next grand prix.
"You can't take the points away from him and give them to Mark Webber. That's now history and Sebastian has the benefit of those seven additional points.
"You can't really fine him - it is almost irrelevant to fine him - so the only purposeful way to bring him to book is to say 'you will stand out one race'."
Following the race on Sunday, Horner said Red Bull would discuss Vettel's move "behind closed doors".

cont...

BBC Sport - Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel should be suspended - John Watson (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21922429)

I agree that this has undermined Horner and that he needs to reassert his authority... but disagree that banning him for a race is the best and only solution.

[AndyL]

It will be interesting to see how RB handle this situation. I can say for sure that Seb is lucky I don't manage the team, as I wouldn't be easy on the young lad. ;) I'd even be tempted to see if the sponsors would allow his car to be painted pink for a race or two, since he turned into such a whining little girl. :)

He likes changing his helmet design doesn't he, you could make him drive the next race in a helmet painted to look like a bell-end :D

[driveace]

Vettel / How would all you guys feel if Helmet Marko,states in the press that he feels Webber is not a good racer,will not win races ,and needs to up his game to keep his seat in the RB team.Then in Australia ,through no fault of his own ,due to an ECU problem his start,and race is messed up.Now a week later,after a good quali,and a good race he comes out from his last pit stop and is told to preserve his tyres and turn down his power as ,there are NOW team orders and Vettel has been told to hold station and not overtake. He then sees Vettel race past him and win the race,when it was confirmed to him TWICE,that Vettel had been told to not race him. He and I would think,are they telling me one thing and Vettel another,are they being truthful with me,or am I being shafted to make me look like a weak racer on purpose. In my eyes Vettel should have been told to hand back the lead to Webber,or brought in for another pit stop by his team,because he NEEDS to understand that he races for a TEAM,and the team have full control and no one person is above the team .I can fully understand Webbers frustration,and how he had enough control to not knock seven bells out of Vettel we will never know .
Rosberg/ I can fully understand Rosbergs frustration,at losing out on a podium,and Hamilton would rather win a race out on the race fair and square,rather than by team orders,and he made that quite clear in post race comments on the interviews.BUT Rosberg must realize that the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren. When Schumacher was hired ,after all his years at Ferrari,the car really never improved, and I know that cars had moved on ,in the period between the Schu leaving Ferrari then joining Mercedes .Again Rosberg did stick to team orders ,and any team hiring a driver will know that Rosberg does as he is requested ,whereas the German does not.

[glyn staves]

If watching F1 comes down to watching the last ten laps sunday crusing and not full on racing it will wither away. May need let them fuel again to see what we all want racing to the max . Sort it Berine

[Valve Bounce]

If there were no team orders F1 would certainly be more boring.

The inter-team rivalry is one aspect which makes the sport truly fascinating. Prost v Senna is one of the all time great rivalries in the world of sports.

The win at all cost mentality is in some cases like an anthropological/psychological study - the length and depths drivers will sink low to get what they want. Alonso being a perfect example but also I remember someone (Peter Windsor?) recounted when Frank Williams was lying in hospital worse for wear after his car crippling car crash Nelson Piquet tried to convince Frank that he made him number one driver!

I think your first sentence contradicts the remainder of your post.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel / How would all you guys feel if Helmet Marko,states in the press that he feels Webber is not a good racer,will not win races ,and needs to up his game to keep his seat in the RB team.Then in Australia ,through no fault of his own ,due to an ECU problem his start,and race is messed up.Now a week later,after a good quali,and a good race he comes out from his last pit stop and is told to preserve his tyres and turn down his power as ,there are NOW team orders and Vettel has been told to hold station and not overtake. He then sees Vettel race past him and win the race,when it was confirmed to him TWICE,that Vettel had been told to not race him. He and I would think,are they telling me one thing and Vettel another,are they being truthful with me,or am I being shafted to make me look like a weak racer on purpose. In my eyes Vettel should have been told to hand back the lead to Webber,or brought in for another pit stop by his team,because he NEEDS to understand that he races for a TEAM,and the team have full control and no one person is above the team .I can fully understand Webbers frustration,and how he had enough control to not knock seven bells out of Vettel we will never know .
Rosberg/ I can fully understand Rosbergs frustration,at losing out on a podium,and Hamilton would rather win a race out on the race fair and square,rather than by team orders,and he made that quite clear in post race comments on the interviews.BUT Rosberg must realize that the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren. When Schumacher was hired ,after all his years at Ferrari,the car really never improved, and I know that cars had moved on ,in the period between the Schu leaving Ferrari then joining Mercedes .Again Rosberg did stick to team orders ,and any team hiring a driver will know that Rosberg does as he is requested ,whereas the German does not.

Did you get commas cheaply in a yard sale? Btw if you say 'the German' you should realize that Rosberg is one, too ;) You make some good points, but the rest of your rant is a wee bit painted in nationalism.
Hamilton has absolutely nothing to do with the upturn in the Mercedes fortunes. When he joined them at the start of the year the car was already done except for a bit of fine-tuning.
Mark looks like a weak racer, because he is one. He can steamroll the whole field on his day - expertly proven last year at Monaco and Silverstone - but he is way too inconsistent to challengefor titles. And he's the last to demand anything. Sulking now that Vettel has crapped in his salad makes him look like a hypocrit. We are talking about the man, who before last year's Brazil GP announced to the world that he'll do nothing to help his team mate and promptly acted accordingly on the track despite being told by his team to back off. Crying foul now makes him look like a complete tool.

[donKey jote]

the Mercedes car he is now racing is NOW a race winning contender,due to Hamiltons ,feedback,and information and know how that Hamilton has brought with him from McLaren.

I reckon Hamilton brought at least 7 tenths with him, what? :p

[Mia 01]

I don´t like teamorders but they has always been in F1 some way or the other. Better have them as now, in the open, and yesterday they was in the open.

[airshifter]

I reckon Hamilton brought at least 7 tenths with him, what? :p

Correct. Six of those seven tenths were taken from Alonso, which is why he is behind Felipe thus far this year.

[Rollo]

The team's objective is either to secure as many points for a driver to win the WDC or the team for the WCC. What we saw in Malaysia was two teams where irrespective of if they'd had either driver finish before or aft of the other, the total number of constructor's points would have been identical.
From the teams' perspective, it was safer to have both cars finish than either or both cars binned.

Drivers have an ego the size of Belgium but if they defy team orders too often, would they find themselves on the unemployment queue?

[henners88]

Did you get commas cheaply in a yard sale? Btw if you say 'the German' you should realize that Rosberg is one, too ;) You make some good points, but the rest of your rant is a wee bit painted in nationalism.
Hamilton has absolutely nothing to do with the upturn in the Mercedes fortunes. When he joined them at the start of the year the car was already done except for a bit of fine-tuning.
Mark looks like a weak racer, because he is one. He can steamroll the whole field on his day - expertly proven last year at Monaco and Silverstone - but he is way too inconsistent to challengefor titles. And he's the last to demand anything. Sulking now that Vettel has crapped in his salad makes him look like a hypocrit. We are talking about the man, who before last year's Brazil GP announced to the world that he'll do nothing to help his team mate and promptly acted accordingly on the track despite being told by his team to back off. Crying foul now makes him look like a complete tool.
Webber is entitled to be upset about this one regardless of past incidents. They don't even come into it. The team were undermined more than anybody in this incident which is why it is getting so much fuss made out of it. Earlier it was stated that Webber ignored team orders at Silverstone 2 years ago and challenged his team mate yet is was clarified that Webber did indeed maintain the gap after he was told to do so. Comparing past instances is only valid if the variables are similar in outcome. Suggesting Webber is a hypocrite and a complete tool for being upset in no way deflects who the real 'tool' was on Sunday. I have the greatest respect for Vettel and he will recover his damaged reputation, but right now he has to find answers for the many questions he will face for the remainder of the season.

[Knock-on]

Btw if you say 'the German' you should realize that Rosberg is one, too ;)

Well, actually he holds dual nationality being half Finnish.

[wedge]

I think your first sentence contradicts the remainder of your post.

No. If the team orders their drivers that there are no team orders then that too is a team order. :P

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, actually he holds dual nationality being half Finnish.

True. But when asked about his nationality, he says German as he never grew up in Finnland. I think he doesn't even speak finnish properly.

[henners88]

True. But when asked about his nationality, he says German as he never grew up in Finnland. I think he doesn't even speak finnish properly.
Indeed, he grew up in Monaco mostly.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Indeed, he grew up in Monaco mostly.

But for that he's speaking quite a mean German :D Better than me actually. He must have spent quite some time in Germanyland though, because his father has a very atrocious accent, while Nico has no accent at all and speaks English wis ze typical German accent. He raced with a finnish license in junior formulae but switched to a German license later on. I'd say he is probably the most European of all european drivers :D

[henners88]

But for that he's speaking quite a mean German :D Better than me actually. He must have spent quite some time in Germanyland though, because his father has a very atrocious accent, while Nico has no accent at all and speaks English wis ze typical German accent. He raced with a finnish license in junior formulae but switched to a German license later on. I'd say he is probably the most European of all european drivers :D
Well according to Hamilton, Nico speaks 7 languages so he must be well travelled. Nico had the upper hand on Lewis during their early teens because he could speak to most international journalists after their karting events. It was mentioned in an interview during the last race that Lewis was often the butt of jokes when Nico would say he had said something to one journalist in say Italian, when in fact it was something completely different. Hamilton of course only speaks English, perhaps American too by now lol :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well according to Hamilton, Nico speaks 7 languages so he must be well travelled. Nico had the upper hand on Lewis during their early teens because he could speak to most international journalists after their karting events. It was mentioned in an interview during the last race that Lewis was often the butt of jokes when Nico would say he had said something to one journalist in say Italian, when in fact it was something completely different. Hamilton of course only speaks English, perhaps American too by now lol :)

Trust me, give it two years and Lewis will speak German, too :D Mercedes seems to put some importance in that. Well that and the fact that many of my compatriots speak with such an atrocious accent that Lewis will find it preferable to listen to them in German *lol*

[henners88]

Trust me, give it two years and Lewis will speak German, too :D Mercedes seems to put some importance in that. Well that and the fact that many of my compatriots speak with such an atrocious accent that Lewis will find it preferable to listen to them in German *lol*
Perhaps he will yeah. Saying that most of the work force in Brackley is British but for marketing trips to Germany it would be a huge advantage for him no doubt.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Perhaps he will yeah. Saying that most of the work force in Brackley is British but for marketing trips to Germany it would be a huge advantage for him no doubt.

One thing that will definitely happen is Lewis starring in Mercedes comercials. They did it with Erja and Mika Häkkinen back in the day and some of them were absolutely hilarious. Hearing Mika speak German with that finnish accent *lol* and i mean that in a good way.

[henners88]

One thing that will definitely happen is Lewis starring in Mercedes comercials. They did it with Erja and Mika Häkkinen back in the day and some of them were absolutely hilarious. Hearing Mika speak German with that finnish accent *lol* and i mean that in a good way.
Yeah he'll do more adverts for them I'm sure.

Of course Lewis has already done TV adverts for Mercedes in his role at McLaren:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLkYxEuH4IQ

:D

[Knock-on]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s480x480/63955_499257526778292_1116025009_n.jpg

Got to get me one of these :D

[Valve Bounce]

No. If the team orders their drivers that there are no team orders then that too is a team order. :P

I don't understand. Why would a team order their drivers there are no team orders if there are no team orders? and then you tell me that is a team order! which contradicts the no team orders arrangement. :confused:

[CNR]

there is a way to punish vettel stick him in a toro rosso for a race red bull would still get points with one of the toro rosso drivers

[wmcot]

I don't like team orders, but I understand them. If I was paying huge sums of money to run a team, I would not want any form of risky behavior to compromise my cars/drivers/points/money from Bernie.

I can live with team orders a lot better than I can live with crappy, self-disintegrating tires that really make the "racing" artificial.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't see a difference between team orders and race fixing. And there can only be one punishment for race fixing...

[Valve Bounce]

The benefits for winning the Constructors' Championship are huge. The money is huge, the attraction for endorsements are huge, and the pit lane position is great also. Besides they get people to buy and drink that Red Bull goop.

Why wouldn't Horner have team orders? It is legal now, and with those crappy tyres and no refueling, it's the way to go.

[dj_bytedisaster]

The benefits for winning the Constructors' Championship are huge. The money is huge, the attraction for endorsements are huge, and the pit lane position is great also. Besides they get people to buy and drink that Red Bull goop.

Why wouldn't Horner have team orders? It is legal now, and with those crappy tyres and no refueling, it's the way to go.

Before the arrival of Pirelli, team orders were only good for two things - getting one driver ahead for the championship or keeping two inept drivers from piling into each other. Now with those clown tires we have a third one - stop racing, so the tires will last longer than 5 laps. That's the real lesson we learned at Malaysia. Pirelli has finally made a mockery of F1.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm not sure I like all this "BAD" about Pirelli tyres. Apart from anything else, my Volvo came equipped with Pirelli tyres, and I find all this very worrisome. :(

[Tazio]

Valve, Pirelli make fantastic passenger car, and motorcycle tires. I wouldn't worry about them on your Volvo. My motorcycle came with Pirelli tires, and only switched to Michelin because Pirelli are so damned expensive. They are only providing these quickly deteriorating tires to F1 because that is what Bernie and Co requested.

[Lee23]

I think they should let the drivers drive, but at the same time they are very good for strategy! Vettel is arrogant though and i think he embarrassed himself in that grand prix