Webber's "problems" are just a "set up" to benefit Vettel. Period.

[markabilly]

As many of you may recall, I have never been a fan of Webber aka "da Chopper".
The reason is his nickname. I thought he was too willing to chop people throughout his career

Someone around here said about five or so years ago, that in the good ole days, he would not have been tolerated in F1. My response is "tolerated" would not been the issue, cause he would have touched wheels once too often and died, perhaps taking another driver with him.


In the big "Turkey bash" of a few years ago, I felt the accident was really a racing incident and did not join in the bashing of Vettel. At most it was 60/40 fault on Webber if one wants to do a stop action reveiw in milliscoends of the accident (a very unrealistic way to do it, but hey the last couple of years that is how the stewards hand out penalities nowadays) because things happen very fast, almost no time to react, driver is sitting low in the car, almost no visibility--and thanks to the good doc, my own personal experience in one of these monsters....the g-forces...


Anyway, today was enough. Webber is getting screwed to benefit Vettel.

More to the point: it is not that Webber was passed today, but it is just the gradual accumulation of this stuff.....

Best examples are these starts by Webber---

I think that Webber's problems in starting are not problems of his, but something with the team electronics done deliberately.

See, (again thanks to da taz), I know I could line up on the grid, push the buttons at the right time, and blast down the track. :s pin: Now that first corner, the only real question would be is when I crash out, how many others are going to go crashing with me.... :grenade: ..but until then, I will not be looking like I got the car in fifth gear

Anyway, one start where it looks like Webber is starting the car in fifth gear instead of first gear, I could understand, but this many times in the last couple of years???


Once is an accident, twice is incompetent, three or more times is deliberate on the part of someone.

Why?
(1) if you got a team mate next to you, who is a threat, why not leave him behind at the start? hummmmmmm :dozey:


(2) More importantly and far more beneficial, why not turn him into a rolling blockade or a chicane, and screw up the others as they try to get down the grid.....nothing like a little "dodge the slow car" to take a driver's attention off trying to pass Mr. Vettel. :vader:



Now one might think that is just me being crazy and forgetting to wear my tin hat, and is no more likely than having a team mate deliberately crash out to give another team mate a victory.....no way, you say....


Sure.....

[catty]

one might think that is just me being crazy
You're right there

[Tazio]

billy's back http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif

[markabilly]

billy's back http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gifhttp://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif

Probably what Webber looks like under his helmet, when he starts a race

[dj_bytedisaster]

Do we really need two Vettel bashing threads on the same day? Although I agree that Mark has accumulated quite a number of botched starts, the idea that someone in the team does it deliberately is quite ridiculous. What the teams care about the most is the constructors championship, because that brings money, while the WDC doesn't. It's a nice thing to have, but it's the position in the constructors championship that brings the money, so screwing up one of your drivers for the other is going to cost millions. And money isn't even the only thing. the constructors title brings other things like the best pit position, too.

[jens]

The Red Bull team dynamics are certainly interesting. I was thinking about it today more in detail and thought I'd share some thoughts. There are some different characters together and it is interesting to see, how do they fit together.

Webber is a straightforward guy, who I sort of like and I am sure it would be interesting to chat with him. He also has some very clear views on different aspects. However, his let-down is that at times he seems to lack common sense and hunch of the big picture, which has been a setback in both racing situations and also in being a team player. I remember in Abu Dhabi last year the team had to call Webber into the pits for a tyre change, because he didn't give the position up to Vettel, who was in a championship battle. Webber wants fairness in racing, but lack of big picture can work against him on occasion – like happened also today.

Vettel seems to enjoy being a kid, who likes to have fun without taking things seriously or ponder about the serious consequences each situation can bring. He was given a team order, but his reacted to it like „so what, I'll go and race for the win - let's see, what happens“. While people on the forums are in rage - "this is unfair!" - for him race is a game - "let's have some fun, what's the big deal?" As long as he is immensly successful, he can afford such approach. But one day the attitude might bite him and he needs to take things more seriously. Maybe it will happen in another team for instance, where there are different team dynamics and principles.

Horner has to play the role of a mediator and manager between those two in race conditions. He tries to have an easy-going approach and doesn't come across as strict and frank as, say, Brawn and Todt, who would say clearly „this is the team order, this is how things are“. Horner's way of leading seems more like a suggestion - „okay, it would be nice if you did things like this.“ But the drivers will have their own interpretation. Drivers remain their own men without being micro-managed in every way like Ron Dennis likes to do. In some ways it is good, but it can bring setbacks like we have seen.

Obviously they have all adapted to being colleagues of each other. This is the fifth season of Vettel and Webber racing together in the same team and they know each other like the back of their hand. If there was some problem or something was unbearable, Webber would have left, but he has stayed on and adapted - „it is, what it is“.

From Horner's point of view this way of management between those individuals is bound to create some misunderstandings from time-to-time. In order to avoid any problems it looks like they need a more systemized and pre-arranged attitude to team work and co-operation. But it looks like they have all adapted to this, put up with some uncomfortable moments, and carry on. After all, regardless of all, the team has been incredibly successful. So maybe that's their philosophy - we can have a problem from time-to-time, but overall we are doing very well and this is what counts. It keeps the drivers competitive and sharp as well if they interpret things in their own way and really fight in races.

[DexDexter]

The interesting thing to me is the fact that Red Bull keep Webber year after year even if some factions of the team openly criticize him and support Vettel, so there must some sort of division at Red Bull, I suspect. Some of the guys like Webber and see his treatment unfair while others think Vettel should get all the support he needs.

[jens]

The interesting thing to me is the fact that Red Bull keep Webber year after year even if some factions of the team openly criticize him and support Vettel, so there must some sort of division at Red Bull, I suspect. Some of the guys like Webber and see his treatment unfair while others think Vettel should get all the support he needs.

I have pondering about that too, because Mark doesn't have the mentality of a Massa to really become a #2 driver and a nice team player in a race. There are some different personalities in the team, but it looks like despite temporary setbacks they are all very professional about it and get on with the job. I think the fact that Webber is a very fast racing driver and also probably has some other qualities that are not visible outside (good at testing/feedback? His general attitude/mindset, which has a good effect on team's competitive athmosphere?) has motivated the team to keep him, while overlooking some possible weaknesses. After all, regardless of what some people at RBR might think, Mateschitz and Horner rate Webber very highly. They are the men, who make decisions.

After all, it recently surfaced (thanks, Bernie!) that Mateschitz & Horner decided to keep Webber despite Hamilton being on the market! Regardless of who Webber is or might be, he was considered as a better driver for RBR team harmony than Hamilton. I think it all tells me that the RBR's intra-team problems are blown out of proportions. They have some uncomfortable situations, but as the saying goes - it is part of the job. Chinese GP will come - all will be fine again and both drivers will fiercely fight again.

[DexDexter]

I have pondering about that too, because Mark doesn't have the mentality of a Massa to really become a #2 driver and a nice team player in a race. There are some different personalities in the team, but it looks like despite temporary setbacks they are all very professional about it and get on with the job. I think the fact that Webber is a very fast racing driver and also probably has some other qualities that are not visible outside (good at testing/feedback? His general attitude/mindset, which has a good effect on team's competitive athmosphere?) has motivated the team to keep him, while overlooking some possible weaknesses. After all, regardless of what some people at RBR might think, Mateschitz and Horner rate Webber very highly. They are the men, who make decisions.

After all, it recently surfaced (thanks, Bernie!) that Mateschitz & Horner decided to keep Webber despite Hamilton being on the market! Regardless of who Webber is or might be, he was considered as a better driver for RBR team harmony than Hamilton. I think it all tells me that the RBR's intra-team problems are blown out of proportions. They have some uncomfortable situations, but as the saying goes - it is part of the job. Chinese GP will come - all will be fine again and both drivers will fiercely fight again.

I agree, except I'm not quite sure how much say Horner really has in the end. I mean today Seb just basically laughed at his order and did what he wanted.

[Mark]

John Watson was on the radio this morning saying Horner should suspend Vettel for one race in order to reassert his authority in the team.

[Valve Bounce]

Now one might think that is just me being crazy and forgetting to wear my tin hat, and is no more likely than having a team mate deliberately crash out to give another team mate a victory.....no way, you say....


Sure.....

Missed your ration of cool aid today, did you??

[Valve Bounce]

John Watson was on the radio this morning saying Horner should suspend Vettel for one race in order to reassert his authority in the team.

Mark! this is possibly the dumbest thing Watson ever said. The #1 Prize in F1 is the F1 Championship for the car, not the drivers' championship.

[dj_bytedisaster]

John Watson was on the radio this morning saying Horner should suspend Vettel for one race in order to reassert his authority in the team.

Helmut Marko would show him his authority in the nearest ditch. Imagine Brawn asking Schumacher to give away 7 points that early in the season, or Ron Dennis asking Senna to stay behind his team mate. Are you kidding? Vettel won the title by three measly points last year and here they are, asking him to give away 7 points just like that. Yeah, sure...

[Valve Bounce]

Next time he tries that, I'll string him up by the balls.

Ministerial stamp of authority may be too late (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/ministerial-stamp-of-authority-may-be-too-late-20130325-2gpdv.html)

[airshifter]

John Watson was on the radio this morning saying Horner should suspend Vettel for one race in order to reassert his authority in the team.

That would be rather extreme IMO. I'd be fine if they make Seb drop a position to favor Mark and make it clear that team orders are team orders. Had Mark not finally backed off they could have trashed both cars.

[Jag_Warrior]

So calling someone a "Greek peddler" is not a compliment, huh? I wonder if Mark has unfriended or defriended (or whatever the kiddies call it) Vettel on MyFace or SpaceBook?

If Webber's description of the events was at all accurate, then yeah, he was wronged. My guess is, the team will pretend to take Mark's side. They'll pat him on the head and do whatever it takes (superficially) to calm him down. But in the end, right or wrong, they know which driver can be depended on to bring home the bacon - and that's not Webber. If Webber gets upset enough to leave (and at his age, what's he got - another season, maybe two?), the team will just scoop up another moderately talented driver to fill his seat. I like Webber. I've liked him since his days at Jaguar. But he's just another David Coulthard/Eddie Irvine kind of driver. He's not arguing from a position of strength or influence.

His situation sucks. Having a younger, more talented teammate who takes a dump on you whenever he feels like it, and the team can't/won't stop him? Yeah, that's gotta suck. And other than talk about it or make idle threats, there's nothing Webber can do about it.

[airshifter]

Great post Jag. My only real issue is that if in fact (which we now know to be true) Sebastian ignored team orders, the team should make it clear who writes the checks, and being a team player is not an option.

[Mark]

Which was John Watson's argument. Either way, a Vettel & Webber pairing at Red Bull in 2014 seems unlikely.

However that doesn't follow that Webber will leave. There have been Vettel to Ferrari rumours for a long while.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't get what all the fuss is about. There's the old saying - what goes around, comes around. Mark disobeyed the team at least twice in the past, only backing off after getting a second, stronger, message from the pits. The only difference in the whole saga is, that Vettel was ruthless enough to make the move stick. If that would have been Alonso vs Massa or Kimi vs Grosjean, we'd now have a dozen threads praising their manliness.
Let's be honest here. Most people merely see it as a chance to finally hate Vettel for a reason. Back in Silverstone '11 people were cheering Mark for taking a crap all over Horner's team orders, but if he is on the receiving end all hell brakes lose, because of who bitchslapped him. Drivers like Alonso, Senna or Schumacher wouldn't even have taken such crap from their teams.

[Zico]

I don't get what all the fuss is about. There's the old saying - what goes around, comes around. Mark disobeyed the team at least twice in the past, only backing off after getting a second, stronger, message from the pits. The only difference in the whole saga is, that Vettel was ruthless enough to make the move stick.

It might be the 'only' difference but you have to admit it is quite a huge one.. ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it. Both of them are rotten team players, which to me is the very definition of a champion. Nobody ever won a WDC by being a team player, but by grabbing any point they could get.
I blame Pirelli and the dwarf. If it wasn't for the ecomentalist rules and the comedy tires, we wouldn't be seeing teams stopping racing and handing out idiot team orders in the second race of the year.

[Big Ben]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

Webber and Vettel have very different driving styles. If the car fits Vettel's preference it is bad for Webber and if Webber feels comfortable in it, it doesn't work for Vettel. That's why Mark was better than Vettel in the early races last year, when the RB was lacking rear downforce. Once that was corrected and Vettel felt comfortable with it again, Mark faded and Vettel took off on his 3-race winning trot.
The 2011 fit Vettel's driving style like arse on bucket, which is why Mark had a hard time extracting good times out of it. I never understood RB's wisdom of having two drivers with such fundamentally different driving styles.

[Zico]

Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it. Both of them are rotten team players, which to me is the very definition of a champion. Nobody ever won a WDC by being a team player, but by grabbing any point they could get.
I blame Pirelli and the dwarf. If it wasn't for the ecomentalist rules and the comedy tires, we wouldn't be seeing teams stopping racing and handing out idiot team orders in the second race of the year.


I see carrying through with the overtake directly against team orders as a far bigger deal than having a few nibbles then backing off. I 100% agree about the tyres though... that needs to change.

[Valve Bounce]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

Apart from anything else, many of Mark's starts were shyte.
But lets face it - he is doing better than our Cricket team, outstanding homework and all. :(

Dang!! I forgot - our Cricket team came second in India. Well, Mark will have to do some homework too, I guess. :confused:

[Hawkmoon]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel. That's not cool and nor is lying about what he'd done afterwards.

Personally, I think Vettel needs to grow up a little. He can come across as petulant when things don't go his way.

[Koz]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel.

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

[Ranger]

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

You know those 4 things that connect the car to the road that everyone has been complaining about? :\

It was dumb luck that Vettel had enough of his to last him the race.

[Ranger]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel. That's not cool and nor is lying about what he'd done afterwards.

Personally, I think Vettel needs to grow up a little. He can come across as petulant when things don't go his way.

Agreed.

[dj_bytedisaster]

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

My thoughts exactly. All the babbling about Webber having turned down his engine is utter crap. Yes he probably had it turned down until Seb caught up to him, but there's no chance in hell he kept it in eco mode once he had a mirror full of German. The fight lasted half a lap with Seb being on the "better" (read: softer) and fresher tires, yet Mark fended him off for half a lap. You don't do that with a turned down engine. He had a fighting chance and he lost and I don't believe for a second that he didn't know what was coming - he did the same thing twice before himself, so he knows what it looks like.
I didn't like Vettels move particularly and from a team perspective it was wrong, but RB has been a conglomerate of two warring drivers since 2010. Mark is being slapped from left to right by a driver more than a decade his junior and he understandably doesn't like it, but he had everything to win in 2010 and lost. It's not RB, who made him the number 2, he did it himself the same way as Massa.

[TheFamousEccles]

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement. His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement, nothing to do with engine configuration. Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

SV has shown himself to be interested in only in SV, and he is in the fortunate position of being 3 times WDC so he can get away with it. This notion that MW is somehow to blame for his own misfortune is infantile crap.

[Koz]

You know those 4 things that connect the car to the road that everyone has been complaining about? :\

It was dumb luck that Vettel had enough of his to last him the race.

Preserve prime tyres, but Vettel can do longer stints with options??
Grosjean and Kimi did 20+ laps on primes.

I don't buy it. Same as Brazil 2011, Vettel's gearbox problems?

[Koz]

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement. His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement, nothing to do with engine configuration. Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

Are you saying, that while Beiber was closing in on Mark, he didn't know anything about it. And didn't even change his engine more to prepare for the possibility of a fight?
And while the fight was going on, he didn't to bother to change it?

Why does he need cooperation from the pits? He does it himself. No one can be so naive, to wait from instructions while someone is gunning for you.
And how long does it take for him to change his engine mode??
"Short while" what is that supposed to mean? Half a second? Half a lap?

Bull****.



This notion that MW is somehow to blame for his own misfortune is infantile crap.

Yes, his misfortune is simple, he was stupid. His defense with car placement, as you put it, didn't look all that great to me. I think he could and should have done more.
If he trusted Vettel who was putting in fast times, and closing in on him not to attack, then I might just call that borderline retardation.

I have expressed my opinion of Vettel many times on this forum, and it has never once been positive. I have also expressed my opinion that Webber is being screwed by RBR, too.
I am trying to be objective here, but I cannot for a second believe that Webber is so stupid that he didn't know what was happening and that he didn't change his engine mode until he had been passed.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement. His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement, nothing to do with engine configuration. Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

Bovine excrement. If Webber had his engine still turned down, Vettel would have out-accelerated him out of the first corner. They were side-by-side for half a lap. No way you can do that with significantly less horsepower or torque

[Rollo]

If it wasn't for the ecomentalist rules and the comedy tires, we wouldn't be seeing teams stopping racing and handing out idiot team orders in the second race of the year.

We've seen these shell mileage marathons before. The 1986 German GP had Prost trying to push his car down the road and the 1985 San Marino GP had 5 cars stop because they were out of fuel and the winner DQ'd for being underweight.

I think that maybe Bernie liked the utter farce of those races and wanted to re-create them

[Valve Bounce]

Personally, I think Vettel needs to grow up a little. He can come across as petulant when things don't go his way.

He doesn't have to - he is a multiple F1 champion.

[truefan72]

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

Fair enough,
Like I said it was a very similar situation to Mclaren in Turkey 2010. at least hamilton had the good sene to fight back.
Webber did try initially though, and they did fight for a few corners, but then he dropped back. I would have turned my engine back up, gone to a rich fuel mix and gone for it, even if it meant me running out of fuel. This is race 2 and if I DNF then so be it. plus, the team could not fault me for trying, and all the chips were in my corner.

[truefan72]

Now I can't stand Briatore...but he is spot on
Mark Webber, Sebastian Vettel must part in 2014 - Flavio Briatore - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106393)

[Koz]

Now I can't stand Briatore...but he is spot on
Mark Webber, Sebastian Vettel must part in 2014 - Flavio Briatore - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106393)

Yes, balls.
Mateschitz should hire him.

[DexDexter]

Yes, balls.
Mateschitz should hire him.

Webber, you mean? There is absolutely no reason to fire Vettel, he's one of the fastest guys there is and only 25. So he doesn't obey team orders, who cares since in the end it's only speed that matters. Except for Di Montezemolo, of course :) .

[jens]

To cut the long story short – an "easy-going" team management combined with two very driven drivers, who don't want to yield, has created such situation. As evidenced, there is a long-term history to this, even if now we have reached the most critical stadium of it.

But to be honest, during the race I was pondering about the Red Bull dilemma. This was when Webber was still leading, but Vettel was close and Mercedes fading. Besides, Vettel was in a very tasty position – right after the final pitstop he was actually battling with Webber. At that time team orders hadn't been enforced yet? In any case, Seb was in full attack mode due to race circumstances, which were hard to calm down.

So which dilemma? „I would like a status quo, so that my drivers wouldn't race, but for the championship I need Vettel in front.“ Such thought came to my head, when I imagined myself in Horner's shoes. In the end he got that result. But how to do it?

Horner couldn't tell Vettel with a straight face that he as a triple WDC suddenly has to be a #2. It wasn't convincing. And probably Vettel felt it. Especially as Seb was right at the gearbox of Mark and could get a good run any time - especially in the DRS zone. It is not like there was a 5-second gap between them, so that both drivers could "calm down and cruise". „Ah, bugger it. He tells me team orders, but he isn't serious, is he?“

On the other hand Horner couldn't tell Webber to move over either, because he wouldn't listen and it would create even a bigger drama than Austria 2002.

Probably Horner concluded that for the team athmosphere it would be nice to have Webber winning for once, so that the Australian would feel like a respected team member and the fans would respect RBR as a team more as well. And perhaps those 7 lost points won't be so crucial in WDC this time. After all, Ferrari didn't order Massa to move over in Australia 2010 – also in the second race of the season. Or Renault didn't order Fisichella to give up a position to Alonso in Malaysia 2006.

But the problem arose, when Horner just couldn't be convincing enough for Vettel – and he himself hadn't convinced about the rightness of the 'status quo' move either. Sebastian could feel the hesitation. And so felt Horner. In addition to „you silly boy“ and "we will discuss about it" there were no more demands. Christian was uncomfortable, but he didn't order him to move back, feeling „okay, let's take those 7 additional points in the WDC fight then – that can't be bad either.“

People have discussed that a driver thinks he is bigger than the team. But in this situation it indeed happened. Suddenly Vettel became too important for RBR/Horner/whoever in the WDC fight that they couldn't properly hold his enthusiasm back.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, balls.
Mateschitz should hire him.

Too fat. He can't fit into an F1 cockpit.

[TheFamousEccles]

Ok, Koz. Invective aside, what is your explanation/hypothesis for why a driver like MW, who is supposedly known for his willingness to fight, didn't? You haven't convinced me yet. and your objectivity seems a little opaque to me (but I wasn't originally calling that into question). Your reply to my earlier post does nothing to dismiss the idea that you think MW is the architect of his own misfortune.

[henners88]

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement. His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement, nothing to do with engine configuration. Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

SV has shown himself to be interested in only in SV, and he is in the fortunate position of being 3 times WDC so he can get away with it. This notion that MW is somehow to blame for his own misfortune is infantile crap.
Indeed. Webber put up quite a fight to hold his position and no doubt it got to a point where he yielded slightly when he knew Seb wanted it more than the team. I would imagine he was fuming about the pass knowing it wasn't what had been discussed and in hindsight its been good for Mark. Seb has come off this looking very bad indeed. I just hope later in the season when Seb is running behind Webber and needs a little help, he is hung out to dry. If I was Mark I would be making it very clear to the team if anything like this ever happens again, there will be wheel banging. Its going to be fascinating to see the Red Bull PR machine at work in China in 3 weeks time. The same for Mercedes, although neither driver there did anything wrong IMO. Its certainly given us all something to talk about :)

[Koz]

Ok, Koz. Invective aside, what is your explanation/hypothesis for why a driver like MW, who is supposedly known for his willingness to fight, didn't? You haven't convinced me yet. and your objectivity seems a little opaque to me (but I wasn't originally calling that into question). Your reply to my earlier post does nothing to dismiss the idea that you think MW is the architect of his own misfortune.
I believe I did, do I have to again?
Ok, let me try and be clearer.


I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement.
I don't buy that. He has ignored team orders in the past - and failed, why should be believe that Vettel wouldn't do the same?
I don't understand his logic here.


His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement,
So we agree that he did fight and defend his position?
He couldn't keep up, so he gave up. He didn't even attempt to give chase - which I also don't understand.

[Car placement might be called by some as racing]


nothing to do with engine configuration.
I am not 100% clear on what you are saying here, is it that Webber was in the wrong engine mode to fight?
He was fighting Vettel for two laps, if his engine mode was wrong, there was plenty of time to change it. I also don't believe that he would have kept fighting Vettel as long as he did, if he wasn't in the right mode.


Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

Assuming, that you are correct and Webber wasn't in the right engine mode, why would he need cooperation from the pits?
He is the one who pushes the buttons or turns the knobs, not the guys on the pitwall, all they can do is give instructions.

You say it takes a "short while", can you clarify how long that is exactly?
I do not believe that this "short while" is so long that Vettel would so far gone and the race lost.

And once again, why wasn't he in the right engine mode to begin with when Vettel started attacking?

If he ignored common sense and placed his whole trust into a team, with which he is extremely familiar, whose leaders have time and again shown favoritism towards his team mate and have publicly called him a #2 driver, where he has himself ignored team orders in the past, then yes:

MW is to blame for his own misfortune
[Fixed]

I wholeheartedly believe that Vettel was a tosser in this case for disobeying team orders.
But Webber did put up a fight - and he lost. After which he fell back and did nothing to counter attack.

Webber isn't stupid, he knew Beiber would give chase. His engine wasn't in the wrong mode, he wasn't unprepared, there's nothing like that at all.
The mostly likely reality here is that he simply lost because he was on primes and Vettel was on options. Had the situation been reversed, we would have seen Mark attacking for a bit before giving up. And everyone would be saying "Good job Mark! F* RBR! F* Beiber! Fight till the end!" or "RBR are ****ing Mark in the butt for Vettel" - hell, I've said that. So what's the difference here?

Neither RBR drivers are team players.

PS: Please don't just say you disagree or don't like my post or dismiss it. If you believe I am wrong, please point out where you think I am, and I am happy to argue my position. But a wholesale dismissal without any counter argument(s) is pointless.

Edit: Oh, I just noticed you're an Aussie. Sums it up. So I guess I shouldn't hope for a decent debate. :(

[henners88]

It keeps getting mentioned here that Webber has ignored team orders in the past and is somehow being used to justify Vettel's actions on Sunday.

The question is, why are Red Bull so publicly annoyed with Vettel when they have never showed this amount of tension when Webber supposedly did it in the past?

Red Bull have always protected Vettel in situations like this, but this time its a big deal. Why is this time different if the fans justify it because Webber had done it previously?

[Koz]

Too fat. He can't fit into an F1 cockpit.

****, ** *** *** **** Heidi ***** **?
* ** **** ** ***** ****** RBR.

[Censored for family forum.]

[Koz]

It keeps getting mentioned here that Webber has ignored team orders in the past and is somehow being used to justify Vettel's actions on Sunday.

The question is, why are Red Bull so publicly annoyed with Vettel when they have never showed this amount of tension when Webber supposedly did it in the past?

Red Bull have always protected Vettel in situations like this, but this time its a big deal. Why is this time different if the fans justify it because Webber had done it previously?

This about sums it up.


Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it.

If Webber made the moves stick, I am sure RBR would be angry too.


And lets not forget, if Webber was told that in the post race interview we would hear something about not being allowed to race and how he's a number #2 driver.
Vettel can't really use that excuse, can he?

If Barrichello pulled a Brazil on Shoe, his career at Ferrari would have been over there and then. Actually, almost any driver doing that against a teammate who is in a WDC fight at the last race would have had the sack.

For some reason, the more I think of this matter the more sympathy I lose for Mark.

[keysersoze]

Webber doesn't seem the type of guy to put up with the latest shennanigan. So now I see a new issue--which current RB driver gets the seat? Buemi? Jaime? Jeff, Ricciardo?

It's hard for me to envision any of those drivers in the car if they can get their hands on Hulkenberg. A Massa-Webber switch? Sutil?

[Koz]

Webber doesn't seem the type of guy to put up with the latest shennanigan. So now I see a new issue--which current RB driver gets the seat? Buemi? Jaime? Jeff, Ricciardo?

It's hard for me to envision any of those drivers in the car if they can get their hands on Hulkenberg. A Massa-Webber switch? Sutil?

I don't understand why people have always been on about a Massa-Webber. Why would Webber want to move to a team that is synonymous with team orders and favoring Alonso, going so far as getting team mates grid penalties to get Alonso along?

As for a replacement for Webber, most likely Buemi?
But there are plenty of quality options out there but only one race winner. Kovalainen.

[Knock-on]

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

[Mia 01]

I don´t for a moment belive that Mark gets inferior equipment, the team needs the WCC point badly if they shall get a new one for the fourth year (big money). But, they favour Seb in other ways no doubt, strategi and so on.

[Valve Bounce]

This about sums it up.



If Webber made the moves stick, I am sure RBR would be angry too.


And lets not forget, if Webber was told that in the post race interview we would hear something about not being allowed to race and how he's a number #2 driver.
Vettel can't really use that excuse, can he?

If Barrichello pulled a Brazil on Shoe, his career at Ferrari would have been over there and then. Actually, almost any driver doing that against a teammate who is in a WDC fight at the last race would have had the sack.

For some reason, the more I think of this matter the more sympathy I lose for Mark.

Does this mean, then, that the less you think, the more empathy you will have for Webber?

[Valve Bounce]

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

This incident had nothing to do with parity. Team orders were given to ensure both cars finished 1 and 2 on the podium, possibly with the knowledge that nobody was in a position to challenge the Red Bull cars.

Please don't try to twist this whole issue into "...he should get the hell out of RBR"

Try to get some logic and sense of relevance into this particular issue.

Also, I do resent that you refer to Webber as stupid. The guy has more ability than you could ever dream of, not to mention money in the bank. If you want to start to insult F1 drivers, then you are stooping lower than I thought anyone here could.

[dilbags]

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?


Are you saying, that while Beiber was closing in on Mark, he didn't know anything about it. And didn't even change his engine more to prepare for the possibility of a fight?
And while the fight was going on, he didn't to bother to change it?



Horner couldn't tell Vettel with a straight face that he as a triple WDC suddenly has to be a #2. It wasn't convincing. And probably Vettel felt it. Especially as Seb was right at the gearbox of Mark and could get a good run any time - especially in the DRS zone. It is not like there was a 5-second gap between them, so that both drivers could "calm down and cruise". „Ah, bugger it. He tells me team orders, but he isn't serious, is he?“


Ok I don't know what race you guys where watching but the one i saw went like this:

Webber had a +5 second gap between him and seb in the 41st lap. This gap had been rising for a good while. It would've been at this stage that horner would've said something like this "ok seb, webber has got a 5 second gap on ya, well get both of ya to turn down your engines and cruise it home like this, come in for new tyres next lap, mark you the lap after".

So Seb pits with webber more than five seconds up the road and gets the softs on. so seb is now a pitstop and 5 seconds behind webber.

Webber then pits the next lap (lap 43) for a set of mediums. the pit stop goes well (about same time as Sebs stop). As webber is rejoining the race after his pit stop he catches sight of Seb about 1-2 seconds before turn 1 on lap 44. he defends valiantly as a mad man (seb) is making all kinds of rash overtaking manouvers on corners that don't usually see much over taking. after nearly half a lap webbers back off to preserve his car's position in the race and seb overtakes him.

It is clear to me that seb didn't like the team orders and seen the red mist, he would've been racing like a madman on cold tyres (he was on his outlap, this would've been extremely foolish) to make up OVER 5 SECONDS in 1 lap on webber. for this to happen webber would've had to have already been told to turn down his engine as the race was his.

webber would've never seen him coming and wouldn't have known that vettel was attacking him until seb actually did on turn 1 of lap 44. before then the last time webber seen seb in his mirrors was on lap 42, more than five seconds back down the road.

It is fairly easy to see how much Seb was in the wrong once you analyze in detail how the events unfolded, instead of guessing that "webber would've seen seb coming" and therefore it is all mark's fault. for me seb's faults in the race where:
Telling RBR control to "get mark out of the way he's too slow" when they where clearly on different strategies.
Ignoring team orders
Doing a lightning fast outlap on cold tyres after his last pitstop (this is a biggy for me).
Attacking his team mate in a dangerous manner on corners that don't usually see overtaking (at stages either of their cars where in the marbles)

[wedge]

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

I do wonder why he resigned with the team. Having Dieter's vote of confidence is as very well but Mark is far more aware of the team's dynamics than Dieter's.

All very very well being in a race and WDC winning car but there's a lot of BS that comes with it.

And the back-against-the-wall cliche applied to Webber, he completely gave up and allowed Seb to breeze by the outside of turn 4 either because of or a combination of: Webber knowing his place/Webber not turning up the wick/Webber on inferior tyre strategy.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It is clear to me that seb didn't like the team orders and seen the red mist, he would've been racing like a madman on cold tyres (he was on his outlap, this would've been extremely foolish) to make up OVER 5 SECONDS in 1 lap on webber. for this to happen webber would've had to have already been told to turn down his engine as the race was his.



Except that the pitstops were two laps apart and 2.5 seconds a lap on new vs old tires is pretty much the default setting on Pirelli's clown tires, especially since Vettel was o n the softer, hence faster compound.

[i_max2k2]

I should have rather posted this here, interesting read, reaffirming OP ;) -

How strategy calls led to Vettel/Webber clash and Mercedes team ordersJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/how-strategy-calls-led-to-vettelwebber-clash-and-mercedes-team-orders/)

[truefan72]

I should have rather posted this here, interesting read, reaffirming OP ;) -

How strategy calls led to Vettel/Webber clash and Mercedes team ordersJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/how-strategy-calls-led-to-vettelwebber-clash-and-mercedes-team-orders/)

interesting article

thanks for that

[Valve Bounce]

Here is an article from Red Bull's management. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/motorsport/red-bull-says-webber-not-planning-to-leave/story-fncei7d9-1226609193375
Personally, I think too much has been made of this incident. I think that, given the circumstances, Michael would have done the same, and Senna. These guys are (were) winners, and passing is dialed into their DNA. Remember Michael's infamous attempt to pass and or ram Jacques? to win. It is like white line fever when a footballer sees the line and rather than pass to a team mate for a certain goal, they go for it themselves.
I am way, way past abusing F1 drivers who do these things. Gone are the days when I used to abuse Michael at every opportunity. They couldn't care less what I post here, so what's the point? Besides, these guys are super humans at their jobs - just enjoy what happens on the track, and if it doesn't go our way, then forgedaboudit!!!!!!!

[TheFamousEccles]

Well, fair enough Koz. I was going to answer your question about what exactly I thought was contentious about your original post, as I didn't make that clear at all, but then

"Edit: Oh, I just noticed you're an Aussie. Sums it up. So I guess I shouldn't hope for a decent debate. :( "

So Stick it, Fella. You want "decent debate", but you won't get any like this.

[zako85]

It would be interesting to watch Chinese GP. Webber races well when he is pissed off.

[Valve Bounce]

It would be interesting to watch Chinese GP. Webber races well when he is pissed off.

Yeah!! maybe he'll be running 6th instead of 7th after the start. :rolleyes:
.........that is providing he doesn't run into Adrian Sutil. :(

[zako85]

I don't discount the possibility that Webber's car may be used as a guinea pig for testing new things, but I doubt he is being slowed down on purpose. Besides, if his problems were just a setup, he probably would have found out by now.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't discount the possibility that Webber's car may be used as a guinea pig for testing new things, but I doubt he is being slowed down on purpose. Besides, if his problems were just a setup, he probably would have found out by now.

With a little luck, he might get the new wing this time. :rotflmao:

well messing up one of your motorists for the other is going to price large numbers. And cash isn't even the only factor. the constructors headline delivers other factors like the best pit place, too . . . . . .

[Koz]

I was wrong, sorry. Good post there dilbags. Whose alter ego are ya? :)

well messing up one of your motorists for the other is going to price large numbers. And cash isn't even the only factor. the constructors headline delivers other factors like the best pit place, too . . . . . .

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[markabilly]

As I was saying when all of you were claiming that you all thought I was back on the kool=aid ................................ :eek:

[bontebempo]

haha now he has been sent to the back coz of too little fuel. gotta laugh. Red Bull now want to separate the drivers at Webber's cost.

[Valve Bounce]

Now one might think that is just me being crazy and forgetting to wear my tin hat, and is no more likely than having a team mate deliberately crash out to give another team mate a victory.....no way, you say....


Sure.....

You've been hitting that Kool Aid again, I see!!

[markabilly]

This incident had nothing to do with parity. Team orders were given to ensure both cars finished 1 and 2 on the podium, possibly with the knowledge that nobody was in a position to challenge the Red Bull cars.

Please don't try to twist this whole issue into "...he should get the hell out of RBR"

Try to get some logic and sense of relevance into this particular issue.

Also, I do resent that you refer to Webber as stupid. The guy has more ability than you could ever dream of, not to mention money in the bank. If you want to start to insult F1 drivers, then you are stooping lower than I thought anyone here could.

Actually I must admit that, THE SAME AS many armchair fans, I had a constant habit not giving the drivers enough respect...used to call Webber the chopper, because he had this habit of chopping other drivers and sticking it in when it really don't belong there (I have to keep telling donKey the same thing when he is with his goat :rolleyes :)

...then I got to take that ride in the F-1 car in Austin, courtesy of the Doc. :eek: :eek:


Well, all I can say is, I am amazed that any of these guys manage to drive as well as they do. Before I thought it was tough, but it drove the point home, even though our speed was on the level of a slow warm up lap.

They all now get much more of my respect as a result-to the point where I find it pretty much impossible to say anything negative about any of their abilities or what a driver did.......no matter how stupid some their moves on the track may look on television in slow motion after an incident.

[markabilly]

You've been hitting that Kool Aid again, I see!!

Yes, I have dun backslided... :beer: ...dont help

in the morning, I wake up sober, but F1 is still F1

[donKey jote]

(I have to keep telling donKey the same thing when he is with his goat :rolleyes :)


not a nice way to talk about your missus... no wonder she left you and ran off with Alca-Kitzler :kiss: :s ailor: :andrea:

[Ari]

Ok I don't know what race you guys where watching but the one i saw went like this:

Webber had a +5 second gap between him and seb in the 41st lap. This gap had been rising for a good while. It would've been at this stage that horner would've said something like this "ok seb, webber has got a 5 second gap on ya, well get both of ya to turn down your engines and cruise it home like this, come in for new tyres next lap, mark you the lap after".

So Seb pits with webber more than five seconds up the road and gets the softs on. so seb is now a pitstop and 5 seconds behind webber.

Webber then pits the next lap (lap 43) for a set of mediums. the pit stop goes well (about same time as Sebs stop). As webber is rejoining the race after his pit stop he catches sight of Seb about 1-2 seconds before turn 1 on lap 44. he defends valiantly as a mad man (seb) is making all kinds of rash overtaking manouvers on corners that don't usually see much over taking. after nearly half a lap webbers back off to preserve his car's position in the race and seb overtakes him.

It is clear to me that seb didn't like the team orders and seen the red mist, he would've been racing like a madman on cold tyres (he was on his outlap, this would've been extremely foolish) to make up OVER 5 SECONDS in 1 lap on webber. for this to happen webber would've had to have already been told to turn down his engine as the race was his.

webber would've never seen him coming and wouldn't have known that vettel was attacking him until seb actually did on turn 1 of lap 44. before then the last time webber seen seb in his mirrors was on lap 42, more than five seconds back down the road.

It is fairly easy to see how much Seb was in the wrong once you analyze in detail how the events unfolded, instead of guessing that "webber would've seen seb coming" and therefore it is all mark's fault. for me seb's faults in the race where:
Telling RBR control to "get mark out of the way he's too slow" when they where clearly on different strategies.
Ignoring team orders
Doing a lightning fast outlap on cold tyres after his last pitstop (this is a biggy for me).
Attacking his team mate in a dangerous manner on corners that don't usually see overtaking (at stages either of their cars where in the marbles)


THISSSSS

I am amazed so many people can't see it! AND to add to it, Seb should never have been pitted before Webber. Mark was ahead on track and as such should have been pitted first. The only reason that Seb pitted first was to cover off Hamilton who pitted the lap before. Had they pitted Mark first, as was his right, then Hamilton would have got ahead and Seb would be battling to get past Hamilton to get second place back. Mark would have been 7-9 seconds ahead at that stage. Game over.

Why did Seb win?

He received an unfair pit advantage over Webber.... and then, when asked to switch off, he said nothing and pounced on Webber who was in economy mode. Did Webber switch on again? Apparently not. He did not have the fuel available to 'race' home or go hard against Seb. He was mugged. Pure and simple.

Silverstone '11 the team advised Webber that it was Seb's race and his immediate response was to tell them to bugger themselves, he was going for it. Had Seb said the same thing to the team in this scenario and taken the second pit stop, he would need to have passed Hamilton then found Webber some seconds up the road for the win. If he did that, then kudos to him. The man. The racer. What he did was say nothing and then pounce on a team-made who had been advised to save fuel and tyres, bring the car home.

And after all this Seb now says "Mark didn't deserve it." Well bugger me! You arrogant twat.

[Ari]

Except that the pitstops were two laps apart and 2.5 seconds a lap on new vs old tires is pretty much the default setting on Pirelli's clown tires, especially since Vettel was o n the softer, hence faster compound.

Meanwhile track position should have seen Webber pit first anyway. Lead car and all. Seb was only pitted first so they could hold off Hamilton. Seb then used this unfair advantage to pounce on Webber who had already shut down for the day.

[Ari]

It would be interesting to watch Chinese GP. Webber races well when he is pissed off.

And even better when he has fuel.....

[markabilly]

And even better when he has fuel.....

and four wheels.....