How good is Vettel?

[Garry Walker]

Yeah full credit to Nico too. He was robbed a bit and its down to Lewis to up his game in the next few weeks. Red Bull and Merc have arguably the strongest pairings on the grid after that race.

Ferrari and Mercedes have far better drivers than RB does.

[henners88]

Ferrari and Mercedes have far better drivers than RB does.
I don't think there is a great deal in it between those three but Red Bull have a strong line up nonetheless. Webber is feisty but inconsistent and for Seb you don't win 3 WDCs being weak. You have to deliver and in this race Mark was the best out there IMHO.

[steveaki13]

and for Seb you don't win 3 WDCs being weak.

No you get really lucky to win 3 titles if your Seb. ;)

[Garry Walker]

and for Seb you don't win 3 WDCs being weak. Y.

Yes, you do when your car is by far the best 4 years in row.

[jens]

Yes, you do when your car is by far the best 4 years in row.

Sorry Garry, but Vettel is on course to becoming an all-time legend of F1. Of that I have no doubt about any more. And he is just 25 years old, while drivers usually hit their primes in their early 30's, when they have combination of both great sporting form and experience to really deliver the results. All I can say is that good luck in following F1 for the next ten or more years. :)

[henners88]

Yes, you do when your car is by far the best 4 years in row.

I don't think there is any doubt Vettel is a very talented racing driver. It's not all car speed but car advantage is always going to he an aid. You have to be able to convert at the same time and Vettel is usually cool under pressure which is why he's won so many IMO. I'm still no fan of the guy.

[steveaki13]

Sorry Garry, but Vettel is on course to becoming an all-time legend of F1. Of that I have no doubt about any more. And he is just 25 years old, while drivers usually hit their primes in their early 30's, when they have combination of both great sporting form and experience to really deliver the results. All I can say is that good luck in following F1 for the next ten or more years. :)

Dont poke the Bear.

[Garry Walker]

Sorry Garry, but Vettel is on course to becoming an all-time legend of F1. Of that I have no doubt about any more. And he is just 25 years old, while drivers usually hit their primes in their early 30's, when they have combination of both great sporting form and experience to really deliver the results. All I can say is that good luck in following F1 for the next ten or more years. :)
Legend? LOL.
He is not even a top 3 driver on the grid currently, the only thing he has going for him is the fact that Red Bull is such a fantastic car and has been for so long. Has any other driver in their career been so blessed at such young age with such fantastic cars for so long? The answer is a clear no. The only thing he is legendary for is bitching and crying and we can now add backstabbing to that. The real joke is that he was taken to the last race in both 2010 and in 2012 against Alonso in cars that he should have sealed the title with 3 races to go. Had you had a proper champion like Alonso or Hamilton or Kimi in that Red Bull the seasons would have been over with far earlier.

[henners88]

I doubt many will agree with you on this one Garry but you're entitled to your opinion of course. Quite how you interpret things is something we will all have to remain in the dark on I think. :)

[Garry Walker]

I doubt many will agree with you on this one Garry but you're entitled to your opinion of course. Quite how you interpret things is something we will all have to remain in the dark on I think. :)

What do you disagree with? That RB has been the car to have since mid 2009? That it has been the fastest car in most races, not to mention qualis since then?
That Hamilton and Alonso have rarely had a car as good as RB? That Alonso was able to take the championship to last race in a car that was far slower than the Red Bull in both 2010 and in 2012?

[Dave B]

Vettel clearly benefits from a great car, but so does Webber as well as several other drivers in Ferrari, McLaren and to a lesser extent Lotus and Mercedes. He did, however, win a wet race in a POS Toro Rosso, so I don't exactly think he's without talent!

[Garry Walker]

Vettel clearly benefits from a great car, but so does Webber as well as several other drivers in Ferrari, McLaren and to a lesser extent Lotus and Mercedes. He did, however, win a wet race in a POS Toro Rosso, so I don't exactly think he's without talent!

That Toro Rosso was so bad that Sebastian Bourdais, the guy who came from a series known for having wet-weather specialist drivers (LOL) was able to qualify 4th in it in the very same race.
Of course many drivers have great cars, the sad fact is that since 2009 the one that has been in a league of its own, has been Red Bull.

[henners88]

What do you disagree with? That RB has been the car to have since mid 2009? That it has been the fastest car in most races, not to mention qualis since then?
That Hamilton and Alonso have rarely had a car as good as RB? That Alonso was able to take the championship to last race in a car that was far slower than the Red Bull in both 2010 and in 2012?
I personally think both Hamilton and Alonso are slightly better drivers than Vettel, but I can also accept Seb is a very good driver in his own right. He's been lucky with a great car but he deserves credit on top of that too. A bit of a side discussion this and I have nothing more to add on it.

[Ranger]

Vettel clearly benefits from a great car, but so does Webber as well as several other drivers in Ferrari, McLaren and to a lesser extent Lotus and Mercedes. He did, however, win a wet race in a POS Toro Rosso, so I don't exactly think he's without talent!

The rest of your post is true but let's clarify the part in bold.

Bourdais qualified the same car 4th on that Saturday before his clutch packed up at the start of the race.

Come the latter half of 2008 the STR (which was Newey-designed, I'll add) was one of the best cars on the grid.

[dj_bytedisaster]

What do you disagree with? That RB has been the car to have since mid 2009? That it has been the fastest car in most races, not to mention qualis since then?
That Hamilton and Alonso have rarely had a car as good as RB? That Alonso was able to take the championship to last race in a car that was far slower than the Red Bull in both 2010 and in 2012?

The 2010 RB wasn't remotely as good as you make it out to be and not to forget that Mark was in a better position to take the title, but both he and Alonso failed to get past a russian pay driver in a mediocre Lotus. The 2011 RB was head and shoulders above the rest, but so was Villeneuves 1996 Williams, Mansell's 1992 Williams or Senna's 1988 McLaren. It just happens from time to time. For most of the year 2012 the RB was second behind the McLaren, but got the title handed by McLarens ineptitude at pit stops.
And you seem to forget that the only way that Alonso could take the fight to the last race was the foul grid manipulation at Austin and healthy amount of points, which he scored while the RB was mediocre at best in the early stages of the season.

[Garry Walker]

The rest of your post is true but let's clarify the part in bold.

Bourdais qualified the same car 4th on that Saturday before his clutch packed up at the start of the race.

Come the latter half of 2008 the STR (which was Newey-designed, I'll add) was one of the best cars on the grid.

Yep. That win is the most overrated victory of all times.

[jens]

That Alonso was able to take the championship to last race in a car that was far slower than the Red Bull in both 2010 and in 2012?

This is an analysis of situations without context. For starters, Ferrari's reliability has been superior to Red Bull. Also circumstances have to be taken into account. Like Vettel starting from the pitlane through no fault of his own. Team mistakes, which I can't remember Ferrari doing.

Every race and circumstance is different. Häkkinen won the title by two points from Irvine in 1999. Despite Ferrari looking slower rather than faster in most races compared to McLaren. Yet you can hardly find anyone, who considers Irvine a superior driver to Häkkinen. So it was the set of circumstances, which made the championship close.

The best thing that can be done is simply to learn to appreciate the driving skills behind the wheel. :) Instead of fighting a 'losing battle' year after year.

[Garry Walker]

The 2010 RB wasn't remotely as good as you make it out to be and not to forget that Mark was in a better position to take the title, but both he and Alonso failed to get past a russian pay driver in a mediocre Lotus. The 2010 RB was clearly the best car on the grid. That Webber (LOL) was in a position to take the title just shows how great a car it was.



The 2011 RB was head and shoulders above the rest, but so was Villeneuves 1996 Williams, Mansell's 1992 Williams or Senna's 1988 McLaren. Well, both Mansell and Senna were better drivers.



It just happens from time to time. For most of the year 2012 the RB was second behind the McLaren, but got the title handed by McLarens ineptitude at pit stops.
And you seem to forget that the only way that Alonso could take the fight to the last race was the foul grid manipulation at Austin and healthy amount of points, which he scored while the RB was mediocre at best in the early stages of the season.
RB was clearly better than McLaren last year, RB mediocre in the early stages of last season? LOL.
It was at least as fast as McLaren in Australia, faster in both Malaysia and China, actually won in Bahrain. Where does the mediocre part come in?
The only way Alonso fought for the WDC was by being about 10 times better driver and driving an incredible season. The reality is that in 2012 Ferrari was inferior to RB in pretty much every race and still Alonso somehow managed to fight for the title.

[jens]

Felt it was needed to create two separate threads.




The rest of your post is true but let's clarify the part in bold.

Bourdais qualified the same car 4th on that Saturday before his clutch packed up at the start of the race.

Come the latter half of 2008 the STR (which was Newey-designed, I'll add) was one of the best cars on the grid.

STR one of the best cars in late 2008? I think you are blowing things way out of proportion. It was a front-running car only at Monza.'

[Garry Walker]

This is an analysis of situations without context. For starters, Ferrari's reliability has been superior to Red Bull. Also circumstances have to be taken into account. Like Vettel starting from the pitlane through no fault of his own. Team mistakes, which I can't remember Ferrari doing.
Oh yes, Cheap Shot's reliability has been so bad the last few seasons. Imagine, he has had 4 car related failures in 3 years. How awful. Just so awful.
True that Alonso has only had 1 in the same time, but he has also had to deal with a slower car in almost each of those races. I know which one I would prefer.




Every race and circumstance is different. Häkkinen won the title by two points from Irvine in 1999. Despite Ferrari looking slower rather than faster in most races compared to McLaren. Yet you can hardly find anyone, who considers Irvine a superior driver to Häkkinen. So it was the set of circumstances, which made the championship close.
Yes, like Mika making driving errors, DC ramming him and McLaren failing him time and time again.



The best thing that can be done is simply to learn to appreciate the driving skills behind the wheel.:
That is why I like watching Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi.

[jens]

That is why I like watching Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi.

Didn't you like Vettel's pole lap yesterday? It was a splendid lap. :) That's why I meant by appreciating impressive driving skills.

Endless downplaying of someone's skills will lead to nowhere in the end. Especially if the reality keeps proving otherwise year-after-year. Mind you, I had doubts whether Vettel has got what it takes to be a top driver. It was in 2010, when he was making mistakes. But since the embarrassment of Spa 2010 he has been a different driver. His worst race performance since then has been 4th at the Nürburgring in 2011. And this is now over a period of more than two years. So on average his standard and consistency has been extremely high since then.

And not least, Vettel has been an inspiration for myself as well. In both 2010 and 2012 I wrote him off in the title race after 2/3rds of the season. But he fought back and delivered, needing a perfect end to the season. This is what is inspirational. You keep up the mentality even if the odds are against you. You still come back and get things done. Impressive. :up:

Also I like the way he has been improving each year and working on his weaknesses. Not long ago there were suggestions Vettel can't overtake. Hardly an adequate criticism any longer. The endless drive for perfection that so much described Schumacher himself.

With these Vettel discussions I am having flashbacks in time by 10 years ago, when there were suggestions that the unsporting Schumacher was winning only due to superior car and Räikkönen and Montoya would beat him in similar equipment. This, what I am reading now, all sounds so similar to what was then. But it doesn't matter. I know Vettel can deliver and will keep doing it as long as he remains motivated and in good form.

[Ranger]

STR one of the best cars in late 2008? I think you are blowing things way out of proportion. It was a front-running car only at Monza.'

They were about the 4th fastest team and had several races where both drivers (including Bourdais) qualified in the top ten and finished in the top 6.

Ergo, they were one of the fastest cars in late 2008. I never said anything about being able to win at every race.

[Garry Walker]

Didn't you like Vettel's pole lap yesterday? It was a splendid lap. :) That's why I meant by appreciating impressive driving skills. What was so impressive about it? He had the best car, he used it.



His worst race performance since then has been 4th at the Nürburgring in 2011. And this is now over a period of more than two years. So on average his standard and consistency has been extremely high since then.
I guess having the kind of car he has had has helped a bit.



And not least, Vettel has been an inspiration for myself as well. In both 2010 and 2012 I wrote him off in the title race after 2/3rds of the season. But he fought back and delivered, needing a perfect end to the season. This is what is inspirational. You keep up the mentality even if the odds are against you. :laugh: I guess you don't need playboy magazine when you have him.

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

[jens]

What was so impressive about it? He had the best car, he used it.


I guess having the kind of car he has had has helped a bit.

:laugh: I guess you don't need playboy magazine when you have him.

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

Kimi also had the best car in Australia. Wasn't his win impressive?

Having "that kind of car" certainly helps, but we can't speak about buttonesque-level performances, who was 16th in a car in which Hamilton won (Canada 2012). So consistency is still needed.

2010 was a complicated year, including RBR's reliability, strategy mistakes, driver mistakes, some unluck. It was not Vettel's best year though, he has had better years since then. But it wasn't Alonso's best either, he was making mistakes early in the season as well.

In 2012 RBR was hardly the best car for 2/3rds of the season. Ferrari was excellent in the wet and on the whole roughly a match to RBR in the dry from Spain onwards to Italian GP. Vettel was roughly tied with Alonso on points until the Valencia GP weekend, which was crucial in earning a points cushion in the Spaniard's favour.

However, I do think Alonso was the better driver in the first half of 2012, he was mighty impressive. But from Germany onwards the tide started to turn and there wasn't a single race, where Webber managed to outrace Vettel, while Massa could genuinely match or outpace Alonso on a few occasions.

[dj_bytedisaster]

The question really should be - why on earth was he not running away with the titles in both 2010 and 2012? Why did he need to come back? He had the best car, he had the fastest car, he had everything going for him. I repeat, Alonso in that car would have sealed those titles up with 3 races to go.

Seriously, sometimes you make me laugh. If Vettel walked on water, you'd be screaming all over the forum that the toad can't even swim. No matter how much you hate him - it won't change the fact that he has 3 WDC. And you constant whining about the RB being the fastest car is silly. When it turns out the best, that means 10 other designers didn't do their job properly. You can't fault a driver for using what's given to him.

[Knock-on]

The Red Newey is a superb car and Seb has used the best car on the grid to ahieve 3 titles. As DJ says, it's up to the rest to challenge.

However, I don't think Seb is the best driver. He will make quite a lot of mistakes when he's challenged and showed his true class today. I expect he'll go the way of Schumacher and do anything, legal or not, to win.

[dj_bytedisaster]

However, I don't think Seb is the best driver. He will make quite a lot of mistakes when he's challenged and showed his true class today. I expect he'll go the way of Schumacher and do anything, legal or not, to win.

Isn't that how most champions collect their wins? Remember Hill blackmailing his team to order Ralf to stay behind in Spa '98? Or Sena ramming Prost off? I think most of the lot have little reason for a holier than thou attitude.

[zako85]

This is a topic that can be debated inconclusively for ages. I think he is good. Like the other best of breed drivers (Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, etc), he made a huge statement in his very first full time season, by winning a race in his case. 3 world championships. He keeps fighting with great enthusiasm even in face of adversity. Now is he as good as Hamilton or Alonso? It's hard to answer this question. I am leaning to say that he is probably at least as good as Hamilton, as Hamilton is fast but not always consistent. Alonso vs Vettel is more difficult to decide.

[jens]

This is a topic that can be debated inconclusively for ages.

That's true. And this is why it is far more meaningful to simply enjoy races, championships and skills behind the wheel. At the same time people still debate, who was better - Senna or Schumacher. And will keep debating. Will it lead to anywhere? I don't think so. Argument ad infinitum.

The only thing that matters is what you do with your opportunities. Opportunities as such are never equal - so you have got to maximize whatever you have got. Someone has the best car, someone is stuck in midfield, someone hasn't even got the money to have a racing career. But this is not something to get frustrated about. Everyone has their own life path as I'd put it.

Alonso and Hamilton fans can get unhappy that their drivers are perhaps not winning as many titles as their chief rival of modern era. But they can take it from another angle of view as well. They have already won championships. So neither is the Moss or the G.Villeneuve of the modern era. In fact, Alonso already has as many titles as the Great Jim Clark.

Alonso and Hamilton have had a good career compared to those talented kids, who have run out of funding somewhere in feeder series or karting. Or compared to Robert Kubica, whose skills I rate extremely highly to this day, who could have become one of modern frontrunners in different circumstances, while it looks like in reality he remains just a winner of a solitary Grand Prix.

Vettel happened to join RBR just at the time, when they have hit their purple patch. And not just for a moment, but for a long period. It is certainly fortunate and Vettel has been fortunate in his career. You always need some luck in addition to skills and talent. But without the latter two you won't get far anyway.

[markabilly]

At the Austin GP, thanks again to taz, I had the opportunity to watch Vettel compared to the other drivers as they went through a couple of fairly sharp turns. Right from the begginng Vettel was very smooth and fast, without looking fast.

He also took the a wide path through the corner, wider than anyone else. The others, such as Kimi, Schumacher, Hamilton, all were using the principle of the shortest and fastest path between two points is a straight line, and were all as close to the apexes as possible. They looked fast.....

but the smooth wide path was taken by vettel.

This type of driving is also the easiest on the tires.....

hence, in this day and age, where in order to save tires and weight, the cars are not filled up with enough gas to go flat out the entire race and the tires just do not last---

So we have the guy finishing in the 9th spot (per today) having the fastest race lap, despite not making it into the top 10 at qualifying, says more than you want to hear about the current level of racing in F-1.

So for the last coupe of years, at this type of racing, vettel is the best I can identify.

But would he have been so good in 2000???

[pino]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/25/nuragame.jpg

:p :

[steveaki13]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/25/nuragame.jpg

:p :

I am sure I have seen this somewhere before. ;)

[markabilly]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/25/nuragame.jpg

:p :

and webber recommends a double dose for Vettel to help him so next time it will be truly an accident and not deliberate

[Tazio]

At the Austin GP, thanks again to taz,

http://i.imgur.com/nMjWM.jpg

;)

[wedge]

To Seb's credit it was an awesome overtaking move on Webber. Barrichello and Prost cried like babies when whey were close to pitwall.

There were question marks but he's a racer when he wants to be.

Qualy has been poor recently. I'd thought he was the best driver over a single lap but in the past year or so he has been a bit scruffy. There's no doubt he excels when the car is updated and planted with rear end downforce as in last year and 2010.




He did, however, win a wet race in a POS Toro Rosso, so I don't exactly think he's without talent!

Unfortunately he has never replicated that sort of drive.

[BDunnell]

To Seb's credit it was an awesome overtaking move on Webber. Barrichello and Prost cried like babies when whey were close to pitwall.

I don't think there's any comparison between the move today and the Schumacher/Barrichello incident. The latter went beyond the bounds of acceptability.

[markabilly]

I don't think there's any comparison between the move today and the Schumacher/Barrichello incident. The latter went beyond the bounds of acceptability.

and this thread ain't even a day old....... :rolleyes:

[wedge]

I don't think there's any comparison between the move today and the Schumacher/Barrichello incident. The latter went beyond the bounds of acceptability.

Webber squeezed Vettel into pitwall and just as malicious.

Rubens should have known better - Schumi rarely gives you racing room. What he should have done was use the one move rule to his advantage and sell him a dummy and us the outside.

[Zico]

Is he a legend? no, not quite in the same league as previous 3 time WDC's in my mind, however as much as I hate seeing one driver dominate like he has, I have to hand it to him and respect his achievements. He may have the best car but he has consistently performed at a very high level to get the best out of it and he deserves credit for that at very least.
His choice to disobey team orders speaks volumes about his desire to win and poses a headache for Red Bull on how best to deal with it, I hope they reverse the situation in the next grand prix and tell him to let Mark through to teach him a wee lesson and show him that he is not bigger than the team.

[dj_bytedisaster]

His choice to disobey team orders speaks volumes about his desire to win and poses a headache for Red Bull on how best to deal with it, I hope they reverse the situation in the next grand prix and tell him to let Mark through to teach him a wee lesson and show him that he is not bigger than the team.

I'm still in the dark what the heck RB were thinking to begin with. You are on the widest track in the calender, with huge-ass run-off areas and you ask the reigning champion to cruise home right on his team-mates tail pipe in the second race of the year. Most of the champions in the past would have told their team where to shove it in addition to hunting their team mate down.
I still think what Vettel did wasn't right from a team player perspective, but the real issue is RB and Merc enforcing team orders this early in the year and on a track as wide and overtaking-friendly as Malaysia.

[Big Ben]

God knows. I think they wanted the best result possible. Silly, right? :eek: :rolleyes:

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[dj_bytedisaster]

God knows. I think they wanted the best result possible. Silly, right? :eek: :rolleyes:


Remember the ****storm after Austria '02? Today was the second of 19 races and suddenly it is ok to fix races that way? I would understand if it was Monaco, where a fight is likely to end in the armco, but on a track as wide as Malaysia, I think the teams should have more confidence in their driver's abilities to fight each other without wrecking their cars.
Especially in the case of Lewis and Nico. Lewis was in fuel saving mode, so Nico could have easily out-DRS'ed him with no danger of a crash.

[Triumph]

I think Vettel was wise to ignore instructions and take the win whilst he had the chance. For Red Bull it's almost certainly going to be him in any championship-winning position at the end of the year, and if it's another close one again this year, the difference in points between first and second could amount to a lost champoinship. Vettel must have had that in mind. Christian Horner may yet end up thanking him for ignoring instructions.

[steveaki13]

I think its a bit sad, that this will always be remembered for the tension between the two and the team orders because we were actually treated to a epic battle on that Lap.

I know Webber had the wool pulled over his eyes so to speak, but that attacking and bravery from Seb was really good and fun to watch.

Also Webbers defense was so determined. He just lost out by constantly being on the wrong line.

Lets not forget the great racing we saw today albeit a bit unfair.

[tfp]

I read that bieber said sorry to superman afterwards, but what did that actually mean? I've no doubt bieber is an incredibly talented driver, but has there ever been a more spoiled multiple world champion? I think not.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I read that bieber said sorry to superman afterwards, but what did that actually mean? I've no doubt bieber is an incredibly talented driver, but has there ever been a more spoiled multiple world champion? I think not.

Quite a few crocodile tears being shed today. Many of those, who cry bloody murder about Vettel's move are the same people, who cheered Mark, when he attacked Vettel at Brazil last year and Silverstone 2011 despite being told to stay behind. Says you all you need to know about the sincerity of some people. Vettels move was bad and basically a shot in the own foot, but Mark has merely gotten some of the medicine, he's been dishing out in the past himself. If you "help" in the title fight the way Mark did last year in Brazil, you better expect to be at the receiving end of the same.

[tfp]

Quite a few crocodile tears being shed today. Many of those, who cry bloody murder about Vettel's move are the same people, who cheered Mark, when he attacked Vettel at Brazil last year and Silverstone 2011 despite being told to stay behind. Says you all you need to know about the sincerity of some people. Vettels move was bad and basically a shot in the own foot, but Mark has merely gotten some of the medicine, he's been dishing out in the past himself. If you "help" in the title fight the way Mark did last year in Brazil, you better expect to be at the receiving end of the same.

What? So you think their supposed "equal number one" thing in the team is for real?
Horners words will mean about the same amount as the words bieber spouted to the press today, nothing.
Nico should leave the race with his head held high and seb should be ashamed of himself.

[dj_bytedisaster]

What? So you think their supposed "equal number one" thing in the team is for real?
Horners words will mean about the same amount as the words bieber spouted to the press today, nothing.
Nico should leave the race with his head held high and seb should be ashamed of himself.

What does their status have to do with it?
Silverstone 2011: Mark is told to stay behind, attacks nontheless. People cheer.
Brazil 2012: Mark is asked to help Vettel in the decisive race, nearly collects his own team mate. People cheer.
Malaysia : Vettel is asked to stay behind, attacks nontheless. People wish him the death and other bad illnesses.

Why are the first two ok and the third one isn't. Other than people being utter hypocrits, I mean.

[ioan]

God knows. I think they wanted the best result possible. Silly, right? :eek: :rolleyes:

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

They've got it. :laugh:

[ioan]

What does their status have to do with it?
Silverstone 2011: Mark is told to stay behind, attacks nontheless. People cheer.
Brazil 2012: Mark is asked to help Vettel in the decisive race, nearly collects his own team mate. People cheer.
Malaysia : Vettel is asked to stay behind, attacks nontheless. People wish him the death and other bad illnesses.

Why are the first two ok and the third one isn't. Other than people being utter hypocrits, I mean.

You've been around here since 2001 and didn't yet understand how this board of hypocrisy works?!

[CNR]

Vettel backtracks, admits he ignored team orders | F1 News | Mar 2013 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/189226/1/vettel_backtracks_admits_he_ignored_team_orders.ht ml)
However, in the official post-event release issued by Red Bull (http://www.crash.net/f1/team_profile/7/red_bull_racing.html) Racing, the three-time F1 world champion had a change of heart and has now held his hands up and admitted he did know he wasn't meant to pass the sister car.

“I got the call and I ignored it. Mark and I are used to fighting each other when we're close, but with the tyres how they are now, and not knowing how long they will last, it was an extremely big risk to ignore the call to stay second. We could have ended up finishing eighth or ninth after destroying the tyres in those two laps; I put myself above a team decision, which was wrong. I didn't mean to and I apologise,” he said.

“I'm not happy I've won, I made a mistake and if I could undo it I would. It's not easy right now and I owe apologies to Mark and the team.”

[dj_bytedisaster]

He said the same after the race. so where does the backtracking come in?

[Coulthard Fan]

It's clear that Vettel is a good driver although I would have to agree with Garry most of it is down to the car!
Vettel has been extremely lucky to always have a good car! Something most drivers would only dream of! Although he has had some great races.

Vettel is a spoilt little brat bullying his team on the radio to get Mark to move out the way was an absolute joke!
It's a race you have to overtake the bloke ahead not make them move over for you!

He dosn't help himself though he makes it hard to like him

I would say Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi and Karun Chandhok are better drivers then Sebastian.

Is Vettel one of the best? Have a laugh! He is good yes but extremely lucky.
He isn't a patch on the true greats, Senna, Jackie Stewart, Damon and Graham Hill, Fangio, Clark and so on and so forth

[rjbetty]

I read that bieber said sorry to superman afterwards, but what did that actually mean? I've no doubt bieber is an incredibly talented driver, but has there ever been a more spoiled multiple world champion? I think not.

How about Nelson Piquet Sr?

[BDunnell]

Is Vettel one of the best? Have a laugh! He is good yes but extremely lucky.
He isn't a patch on the true greats, Senna, Jackie Stewart, Damon and Graham Hill, Fangio, Clark and so on and so forth

How many times did Clark win an F1 race in a car that wasn't the best?

[steveaki13]

To be honest most drivers who win titles are in the best cars, even if a driver wins a race in a lesser car he will end up in the best car as the best cars are normally made by the best teams who want the best drivers.

As for Vettel, I have no real problem with what he did, its just the sad eyes and pathetic apology that annoys me.

I would have more respect if he just said I went for the win I took it and have the extra points to prove it. Thats why I am a 3 times Champion.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It's clear that Vettel is a good driver although I would have to agree with Garry most of it is down to the car!
Vettel has been extremely lucky to always have a good car! Something most drivers would only dream of! Although he has had some great races.

Senna score many of his victories in a car that was head and shoulders above the rest, so did Prost, Mansell, Stewart, Jim Clarke, Juan Manuel Fangio. I'd say Senna and Schumacher were the only drivers who could regularly win in a car that wasn't a top-runner.


Vettel is a spoilt little brat bullying his team on the radio to get Mark to move out the way was an absolute joke!
It's a race you have to overtake the bloke ahead not make them move over for you!

Rosberg did just the same, Alonso has a long history of 'asking' the team to move Massa out of the way. Damon Hill even blackmailed his own team to pressure them into giving Ralf a team order to stay behind. That's how he won his only race in anything but a Newey car.


I would say Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi and Karun Chandhok are better drivers then Sebastian.

You are even more hilarious than Gary. That's why Karun Chandhok has a race seat and Vettel hasn't, right?


Is Vettel one of the best? Have a laugh! He is good yes but extremely lucky.
He isn't a patch on the true greats, Senna, Jackie Stewart, Damon and Graham Hill, Fangio, Clark and so on and so forth

Even mentioning Damon Hill in the same sentence as his father is bordering on blasphemy. He had exactly two good races outside of Williams - Hungary 1997 and Spa 1998. Even in a Williams that was utterly superior to anything else, he got his arse handed to him on a platter by Schumacher on more than one occasion. You can't be serious.

[BDunnell]

Senna score many of his victories in a car that was head and shoulders above the rest, so did Prost, Mansell, Stewart, Jim Clarke, Juan Manuel Fangio. I'd say Senna and Schumacher were the only drivers who could regularly win in a car that wasn't a top-runner.

Prost did — his performances transcended the very first McLaren he drove, and then he won the 1986 championship in a car that wasn't the best, which (even considering what happened in Adelaide) was a remarkable achievement.



Even mentioning Damon Hill in the same sentence as his father is bordering on blasphemy. He had exactly two good races outside of Williams - Hungary 1997 and Spa 1998. Even in a Williams that was utterly superior to anything else, he got his arse handed to him on a platter by Schumacher on more than one occasion. You can't be serious.

I wouldn't put either of the Hills amongst the true greats.

[wedge]

Even mentioning Damon Hill in the same sentence as his father is bordering on blasphemy. He had exactly two good races outside of Williams - Hungary 1997 and Spa 1998. Even in a Williams that was utterly superior to anything else, he got his arse handed to him on a platter by Schumacher on more than one occasion. You can't be serious.

I'd say his best win was 1994 Japanese GP. He admitted he was driving at a level that exceeded him. Damon is very honest about his abilities.


Prost did — his performances transcended the very first McLaren he drove, and then he won the 1986 championship in a car that wasn't the best, which (even considering what happened in Adelaide) was a remarkable achievement.


I've always rated Prost in the 1991 season. He fought for podiums considering he driving a "truck" and was up against superior cars.

[gloomyDAY]

Good enough to look into your eyes while smiling, and then stab you in the back. Kind reminds me of what Hunter Thompson said about Richard 'Dick' Nixon.

Khi ch?n mua d?ng c? gia dình phòng b?p, ngoÃ*i công d?ng, ki?u dáng, mÃ*u s?c cung lÃ* y?u t? quan tr?ng. B?i d?ng c? gia dình luôn chi?m t? l? khá l?n trong b?t c? không gian sinh ho?t nÃ*o trong nhÃ*. B?i v?y, mÃ*u s?c c?a phòng b?p dòi h?i có d?c trung s?ch s?, kÃ*ch thÃ*ch c?m giác thèm an vÃ* sinh d?ng. D?ng th?i, toÃ*n b? quá trình gia công n?u nu?ng thu?ng có liên quan v?i vi?c n?u an sau dó, nên yêu c?u môi tru?ng không gian quanh phòng b?p ph?i có s?c thái vui tuoi.

[Mifune]

I think Vettel was wise to ignore instructions and take the win whilst he had the chance. For Red Bull it's almost certainly going to be him in any championship-winning position at the end of the year, and if it's another close one again this year, the difference in points between first and second could amount to a lost championship. Vettel must have had that in mind. Christian Horner may yet end up thanking him for ignoring instructions.

Yes, I’m sure Webber will do nothing to hamper Vettel’s 2013 championship tilt now. He’s been far from helpful in the past, but what incentive does he have not to ruin Vettel’s day now? You know, if its a "close one"?
Because you know that at least 3 or 4 times in the coming year he will be in a position to do just that.

You can view it as wisdom that Vettel took the win because he’s GOAT and what not or conversely that he shot himself in the foot today and has potentially given himself some trouble later in the year when he will need a compliant team mate.
Luckily for you (and Vettel) I suspect Mark is a better man than Sebastian and it won’t play out like that.

Perhaps to some Vettel’s ruthlessness in the race was an attractive character trait, and a great example of the “real racing” that fans want to see, but for a great many watching all they saw was Vettel with everything turned up to 11 making a pass on an unsuspecting Webber who had everything turned down as per team instructions and sincerely thought that Vettel also had everything turned down, so even the "fans just want to see racing" argument doesn’t hold here, It was not a fair fight in the least. Vettel’s actions in the race showed us a lot of things about him, but sadly wisdom was not one of them.
It was just an indication of Vettel’s youth, Marks self control, and Christian Horner’s poor leadership skills. (Re.Brawn/Rosberg)

[wmcot]

How good is Vettel? Depends on how you define good.

Fast - definitely
Mature - not very
Team player - nope, selfish

It's not as if Vettel wouldn't still be in the championship lead if he had held station and finished 2nd...

Remember, it's the team that invests hundreds of thousands each year, not the driver. I think they should have some say in how the operation is run. If it was your team, you would want control, not allow those you are paying to do what they want.

[Koz]

Vettel?

He has always come off as a little weird to me.
Everything he says, the jokes he makes. They don't seem "normal" to me. It all seems pre-planned and disingenuous.
He is ruthless, very clever. Probably doesn't have a real friend in the world, probably never had one.
God's gift to mankind.

But, he is fast. Very fast. The benefit of the best car, by a mile, on the grid. With a teammate who has KERS issues every second race.
He is a three time world champion, but then again can someone deny that Lewis, Fred, Kimi, among others wouldn't won championships in such cars? I don't particularly rate Webber as a great driver, probably the same level as Sutil and Heidfeld.
Vettel is a good driver, not the best. He will run away with all the records in due time, and most likely this year's championship.

No one will ever be able to conclude how talented he is, until he has a poor car. Which might just happen this year.
He had a decent car in the first half, and he was neck and neck with Webber, he ran away with the championship once he had the best car on the grid.



Remember, it's the team that invests hundreds of thousands each year, not the driver. I think they should have some say in how the operation is run. If it was your team, you would want control, not allow those you are paying to do what they want.

Hundreds of millions, you mean :)

[truefan72]

my two cents

Vettel is a very good driver, regardless, but not as good as Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton
He is just above the Button and Massa line imo

He has clearly had the benefit of having the best car for nearly 4 years, and if not of the Brawn advantage may be a 4x champ
(i count the latter half of 2009 and discount the first half of 2012)

That being said, he has a petulance and severe character flaw that manifests itself mostly during the race
I blame him for the Turkey incident, and this latest fiasco is almost unforgivable
Clearly the team favor him and I feel at times slight webber, whether inadvertently or not
and throughout these past years have achieved the unimaginable which is to make me feel sorry for webber, one of my least favorite drivers, mainly due to his chopping and poor sportsmanship when being passed.

Both drivers have greatly benefited form an excellent car and strong team. A car so dominant at times that his closest rivals couldn't even come within a second of his pace.

when you look back at the greats, even they would held in check by an equal talent in the other car.
Needless to say, if Hamilton Alonso or kimi where Vettel's teammate, I'm not sure he would have won 3 championships
1 maybe, and perhaps none.

But whether we like it or not, he will take his place in the pantheon of F1 history, along with all the other drivers that won with dominant cars

[jens]

Can't help but feel that the RBR advantage over the rest of the field has been overblown. Even in 2011. In 2011 the advantage of RBR over the rest of the field was smaller than 2002, 2004, 1992, and other years like that. It was not like both drivers were running into the distance and lapping the rest of the field. Webber was in the pack most of the time and RBR got only a few 1-2's. McLaren won 6 races that season. Plus there were more races, where they were close (Barcelona, Monaco, Spa from the top of my head). There were several qualifying sessions, where Vettel barely won with an advantage of a tenth or two, while Webber was 4th or lower.

It's just that the whole team (including Vettel) performed an excellent season, which is why nobody managed to capitalize, even if they ran close.

As long as detractors keep overblowing the car-factor, they are in for a long-term disappointment (if 3-4 years isn't long enough already!), because Sebastian keeps performing at the highest level as a true top driver. Keeps proving himself both in fortunate but also troubled situations. And may I say, I think his best seasons are yet to come.

All this talk is slightly disrespectful to Webber as well, who is a very fast driver and who can race against any of the top drivers on the grid on his day. If he qualifies 4th or 6th, which he sometimes does, it shows that the car is not dominant, but it is a fast car of which it is tricky to get the performance out. It is not like Newey is a god, who guarantees you +1 seconds on the race track. Other teams are well-funded with smart engineers as well, who can sometimes match or beat Newey-mobiles. It is the finest of margins we are talking about.

[henners88]

Vettel is a 3 times WDC so he is one of the best out there at the moment IMO. You need the best car, but you also need to be able to extract the potential out of the car in order to capitalise. Vettel has done that consistently for over 3 years now. I still believe the likes of Alonso and Hamilton are capable of doing the same thing given the right/same support, but we know that and their time will come. For now Vettel and his team are in the groove and getting the job done. I think 2014 will be the challenge for everyone.

[The Black Knight]

Can't help but feel that the RBR advantage over the rest of the field has been overblown. Even in 2011. In 2011 the advantage of RBR over the rest of the field was smaller than 2002, 2004, 1992, and other years like that. It was not like both drivers were running into the distance and lapping the rest of the field. Webber was in the pack most of the time and RBR got only a few 1-2's. McLaren won 6 races that season. Plus there were more races, where they were close (Barcelona, Monaco, Spa from the top of my head). There were several qualifying sessions, where Vettel barely won with an advantage of a tenth or two, while Webber was 4th or lower.


It's just that the whole team (including Vettel) performed an excellent season, which is why nobody managed to capitalize, even if they ran close.


As long as detractors keep overblowing the car-factor, they are in for a long-term disappointment (if 3-4 years isn't long enough already!), because Sebastian keeps performing at the highest level as a true top driver. Keeps proving himself both in fortunate but also troubled situations. And may I say, I think his best seasons are yet to come.


All this talk is slightly disrespectful to Webber as well, who is a very fast driver and who can race against any of the top drivers on the grid on his day. If he qualifies 4th or 6th, which he sometimes does, it shows that the car is not dominant, but it is a fast car of which it is tricky to get the performance out. It is not like Newey is a god, who guarantees you +1 seconds on the race track. Other teams are well-funded with smart engineers as well, who can sometimes match or beat Newey-mobiles. It is the finest of margins we are talking about.


I tend to agree with what you say here and I do believe there is more to come from Vettel. There's no doubting he's a top tier driver, he's in the top 4 on the grid, in my opinion. I say top 4 because, at the moment, I consider Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Rosberg to be the best out there, which is why I'm fascinated to see how this season is going to progress at Mercedes.


That aside though, since 2010 the RBR's car advantage has been nominal. Is it the best car overall? At the moment it certainly is though the Ferrari's and Merc's aren't far behind. Last year it wasn't the best car, it was probably level with the McLaren's but McLaren being Mclaren shot themselves in the foot numerous times throughout the season and, in my opinion, cost Hamilton the title. In 2011 it was definitely the best car. It got all pole positions barring one but the fact is that the gap wasn't as large as it looked, it's just that drivers and team both upped their games significantly.


While I maintain that Vettel is one of the best out there and lets face it, you don't get three WDC's by fluke, I still feel that, as witnessed last year, he can't really show what he is capable of unless the car is perfect for him. Without the car set up right, he looks just like any other driver but he's is devastating when he is fully dialed into the car. Alonso and Hamilton can driver around a cars inefficiencies however, and that's why I rate them higher. I'm very open to changing my opinion of him though and he may show in time what he's capable of doing in a car that's second rate, which is why I hope he moves from RBR soon to a struggling team. Then we'll witness what he's got.

[Knock-on]

You've been around here since 2001 and didn't yet understand how this board of hypocrisy works?!

You lecturing the board about hypocrisy :s hock:

Well, I suppose there's nobody better and we can get the definition of irony out the way at the same time :D

[airshifter]

To be honest most drivers who win titles are in the best cars, even if a driver wins a race in a lesser car he will end up in the best car as the best cars are normally made by the best teams who want the best drivers.

As for Vettel, I have no real problem with what he did, its just the sad eyes and pathetic apology that annoys me.

I would have more respect if he just said I went for the win I took it and have the extra points to prove it. Thats why I am a 3 times Champion.

Despite the fanboys and haters, I think this post sums up modern day F1 reality. Very few crap drivers end up in the best cars, and most of the time the best drivers eventually end up in one of the best cars.

I think Sebastian is a very, very good driver. Probably at least in the top 6 or 8 IMO. Granted he is in a great car, but you don't deal with pressure from the likes of Alonso, Kimi, Lewis, etc without being a really good driver. A lesser driver even in a great car would fold under such pressure.

[jas123f1]

Vettel is one of the best drivers today .. no doubt about that .. Then it's a fact that without a good car no one can become a worldchampion .. There are a few drivers with an extra talent and Vettel is one of them the others are Alonso, Massa, Hamilton, Rosberg and Kimi and even Button .. Then there are some with a good chance to develops and one day be a Campion one day .. I think Grosjean is one of them if he want to listen all good advisors around him .. and give it a time needed ... :) ..

[Triumph]

Yes, I’m sure Webber will do nothing to hamper Vettel’s 2013 championship tilt now. He’s been far from helpful in the past, but what incentive does he have not to ruin Vettel’s day now? You know, if its a "close one"?
Because you know that at least 3 or 4 times in the coming year he will be in a position to do just that.

You can view it as wisdom that Vettel took the win because he’s GOAT and what not or conversely that he shot himself in the foot today and has potentially given himself some trouble later in the year when he will need a compliant team mate.
Luckily for you (and Vettel) I suspect Mark is a better man than Sebastian and it won’t play out like that.

Perhaps to some Vettel’s ruthlessness in the race was an attractive character trait, and a great example of the “real racing” that fans want to see, but for a great many watching all they saw was Vettel with everything turned up to 11 making a pass on an unsuspecting Webber who had everything turned down as per team instructions and sincerely thought that Vettel also had everything turned down, so even the "fans just want to see racing" argument doesn’t hold here, It was not a fair fight in the least. Vettel’s actions in the race showed us a lot of things about him, but sadly wisdom was not one of them.
It was just an indication of Vettel’s youth, Marks self control, and Christian Horner’s poor leadership skills. (Re.Brawn/Rosberg)

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens if the situation is reversed later in the season.

I think you're right in that the race showed us a lot about Vettel. How you read into it will depend on what you thought of him beforehand, but we definitely saw something new from him yesterday. His actions reminded me very much of Michael Schumacher, which is exactly how he is going to have to behave if he is to match Schumacher's achievements.

It's not quite clear yet, but we could now actually be in the early stages of the 'Vettel era'. We won't know that for sure until it has happened though. If that's the case then a good number of drivers are going to pass into history with fewer championships to their name than they deserve - Hamilton and Alonso in particular. I have given up hope of Hamilton winning the championship again anytime soon.

[BDunnell]

You lecturing the board about hypocrisy :s hock:

Well, I suppose there's nobody better and we can get the definition of irony out the way at the same time :D

Yes, yes and thrice yes.

[BDunnell]

You've been around here since 2001 and didn't yet understand how this board of hypocrisy works?!

Why post then, ioan? I thought you were gone from the F1 forum, anyway.

[wedge]

I wouldn't put either of the Hills amongst the true greats.

This probably deserves a thread of its own but I'm very interested in you opinion. In terms of greatness what is your is your assessment of Graham?

I am open minded - in part because my knowledge is somewhat limited in assessing the intracies. Gurney, Clark, Brabham (not necessarily in that order) were maybe head and shoulders above the rest. Hill there or thereabouts but my depth in knowledge isn't that great to back it up as an authoritive opinion.

[BDunnell]

This probably deserves a thread of its own but I'm very interested in you opinion. In terms of greatness what is your is your assessment of Graham?

I am open minded - in part because my knowledge is somewhat limited in assessing the intracies. Gurney, Clark, Brabham (not necessarily in that order) were maybe head and shoulders above the rest. Hill there or thereabouts but my depth in knowledge isn't that great to back it up as an authoritive opinion.

Well, I too can obviously only go on what I've read about Graham Hill, which is a fair amount. He certainly seems to have been a hard grafter rather than possessing an innate skill on the same level as, say, Clark's, but on his day he could without doubt turn it on. I'd therefore say that your view is pretty much spot-on.

[steveaki13]

I think Vettel is one of the best drivers in currant F1.

However I do think he may have harmed any chance of help from Mark should he need it.

i.e if late in the season, he needs points or points taken from rivals, Mark wont have much incentive to help.

[airshifter]

I'll go one better Steveaki13. If Webber decides to retire after this year and it's the last race of the season, and Seb needs to win to get the WDC, he better hope Webber isn't the driver in second place. He might get clumsy and forget to brake for a corner! :laugh:

[Coulthard Fan]

Damon hill is just as good as his father even being cheated out of a title by Schumacher!

Even putting Schucrasher in the same league as senna is a joke he won so many titles in a car head and shoulders above the rest!
We saw him in a Mercedes and he was extremely average!

[gloomyDAY]

Why post then, ioan? I thought you were gone from the F1 forum, anyway.Oh, come one B. Let it go.

[Zico]

Damon hill is just as good as his father even being cheated out of a title by Schumacher!

Even putting Schucrasher in the same league as senna is a joke he won so many titles in a car head and shoulders above the rest!
We saw him in a Mercedes and he was extremely average!


I think Mikes age caught up with him somewhat but I don't think he was 'average'. I just think Nico is better than a lot give him credit for, I guess this season will allow us to determine just how good.

[rjbetty]

Damon hill is just as good as his father even being cheated out of a title by Schumacher!

Even putting Schucrasher in the same league as senna is a joke he won so many titles in a car head and shoulders above the rest!
We saw him in a Mercedes and he was extremely average!

Come on I don't think it's quite like that.

1994 - Benetton 2nd best car behind Williams
1995 - Benetton 2nd or 3rd best behind Williams. Brawn always said it was actually an average car with an excellent engine and driver. Look what Alesi and Berger did the following year. Michael said the 1995 Ferrari could have won the title, yet people say he's just saying that. He could just be telling the truth too - I'll go with that one for now.

2000 - I personally believe the McLaren was actually better and that Coulthard didn't really have more than a 0.2sec advantage in pure speed as a driver over Barrichello!
2001 - Contrary to popular belief, I reckon the Ferrari was only 0.1sec quicker than the McLaren. In fact, I think Williams were slightly quicker on average (I mean the mean, though the median might be more accurate; scuse the maths speak)
2002 - Ok I'll give this one. A slight edge on ahem 'mean' in quali, much more in the races.
2003 - Well actually, yes a dominant car. BUT all the factors, new rules, michelin tyres caused this to be distinctly evened out, or even maybe behind slightly. I mean Barrichello was 4th on 65pts. Was he really THAT much worse than JPM and Kimi who were only in their 3rd seasons?
2004 - I think this car was the best in 2004, but hardly McLaren 98 stuff.


As for Mercedes, I think Michael was older, very rusty, unable to test and practice, and Nico is just underrated.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Damon hill is just as good as his father even being cheated out of a title by Schumacher!

Even putting Schucrasher in the same league as senna is a joke he won so many titles in a car head and shoulders above the rest!
We saw him in a Mercedes and he was extremely average!

That stuff you're smoking - you better lay it off. I'm pretty sure it's unhealthy if not even illegal. Damon Hill was a solid driver, but other than in the ridiculously superior Newey cars of 93-96 he was utterly mediocre. He was beaten by Ralf Schumacher for crying out loud and that more than once...

[Coulthard Fan]

Not being funny but the Benneton had electronic aids that were banned!! If that's not a huge advantage I don't no what is!

I'm sorry but nobody will change my opinion on the bloke! Some of the things he did in his career are unforgivable!
Mr Schucrasher proved that in a PROPER midfield car he was knowhere but the barrier most of the time!

[Coulthard Fan]

Utterly mediocre I'm sorry but DJ what are you smoking!? He should have been a double world champion he was cheated out of it! Ask anybody Murray Walker for an example he still firmly believes Schucrasher should have been Disqualified!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Utterly mediocre I'm sorry but DJ what are you smoking!? He should have been a double world champion he was cheated out of it! Ask anybody Murray Walker for an example he still firmly believes Schucrasher should have been Disqualified!

Still doesn't change the fact that Hill was only world champion in a car that was as superior as the 2011 RB if not even more. He 'achieved' the very thing that you and your bestest hate-buddy Gary lambast Vettel for ad nauseam. When Hill was in a midfield car (Arrows, Jordan) he did exactly nothing. When Schumacher was in midfield cars (Benetton 1992-1993, Ferrari 1996) he scored five wins against the likes of Mansell, Prost and Senna. Comparing these two is like comparing hare and turtle...

[rjbetty]

Not being funny but the Benneton had electronic aids that were banned!! If that's not a huge advantage I don't no what is!

I'm sorry but nobody will change my opinion on the bloke! Some of the things he did in his career are unforgivable!
Mr Schucrasher proved that in a PROPER midfield car he was knowhere but the barrier most of the time!

Check out the 1991 Belgian Grand Prix. in which Schumacher outqualified Spa expert Andrea de Cesaris by a big margin. I remember reading around 1999 of how de Cesaris just looked lost in the debrief when Michael described how he was driving round a certain Problem the Jordan car was experiencing.

Then consider that de Cesaris retired from 2nd on lap 42 on 44, closing in on an ailing Senna and looking on course to pass him. I'll let you do the maths. ;)

[rjbetty]

Utterly mediocre I'm sorry but DJ what are you smoking!? He should have been a double world champion he was cheated out of it! Ask anybody Murray Walker for an example he still firmly believes Schucrasher should have been Disqualified!

Hmmm but Hill only truly beat Schumacher once all year, and that was only by the 3.3 seconds that Murray screamed.

He was only anywhere near Michael in the points because the FIA kept on disqualifying him, for a 1/4 of the races. I don't want to peddle childish conspiracy theories, but I do consider the possibilty that the FIA's decisions may have been influenced somewhat by their concern of having a close championship fight.

At the time, it was known that the FIA were very concerned about TV viewing figures etc. This had been an issue during 1993 and the reduced figures led to all the driver aids being banned for '94.

[Mia 01]

Three times champion in a row and runner up the year before. I don´t care about the car, Seb is one of the Great!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Three times champion in a row and runner up the year before. I don´t care about the car, Seb is one of the Great!

Well, you can't discard the car completely. If it doesn't fit him, he fades a bit, unlike Schumacher or Senna, who could win even in crap cars. Vettel has only managed that twice - the Torro Rosso in 2008 and last year at Bahrain, when he won despite the car fitting Webber's style more than his. He still has a way to go until he could be considered a truly great. I would say he's on Piquet's level. (Nelson sr. that is ;) )
If given a competetive car, he delivers reliably.

[D-Type]

I can never understand the "[driver under discussion]'s success is only due to the car" argument. Team managers aren't stupid, they will get the best driver they can into their car. Logically, if a car is the best car then the odds are it will have the best driver driving it.

[BDunnell]

I can never understand the "[driver under discussion]'s success is only due to the car" argument. Team managers aren't stupid, they will get the best driver they can into their car. Logically, if a car is the best car then the odds are it will have the best driver driving it.

Precisely. Thank goodness for an input from a proper F1 enthusiast — I use that word quite deliberately, as opposed to 'fan'.

[Hawkmoon]

Damon hill is just as good as his father even being cheated out of a title by Schumacher!

Even putting Schucrasher in the same league as senna is a joke he won so many titles in a car head and shoulders above the rest!
We saw him in a Mercedes and he was extremely average!

At the risk of getting off topic, the 1988 McLaren was one of the most dominant cars the sport has ever seen, the 1990 car was at least as good as the Ferrari and probably a bit better, and the 1991 car was the best until Williams got their act together in the latter part of the season, by which time the title was over. So Senna enjoyed just as much of a car advantage as Schumacher did.

Getting back to Vettel, he's a triple world champion and average drivers do not get to be triple world champions regardless of the quality of their car. He may end up as statistically the greatest driver in the sport's history and if he does, good luck to him, he'll have earned it.

It is true, however, that he has never had to deal with anything less than a competitive car (his first season aside). I'll withhold judgment of Vettel until I seem wrestle with a recalcitrant beast like some of the cars that Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton have had to deal with.

[Koz]

I think Mikes age caught up with him somewhat but I don't think he was 'average'. I just think Nico is better than a lot give him credit for, I guess this season will allow us to determine just how good.

And lets not forget, Michael had a great first half of last year. Misfortune and the Spanish GP aside, I wouldn't be able to say which driver was better. Nico won a GP, but Michael would most likely have won Monaco if not for the penalty.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I think Vettel has shown he is a great driver in a great car. But so far he is also a good or decent driver in something less than a great car. To me, if you want to be considered an all-time great you have to do amazing things with poor material, and it's not like last year's RBR started off that bad. Still, he's still young and have time for improvement. A couple of seasons ago he couldn't overtake to save his life and well, that's changed. In any case I think he has been very fortunate to have had as much success as he's had, considering it's not really until the last year or so that I've started having some confidence in him as an all-round driver.

But he seriously needs to get over himself. Half the time he acts like a spoiled child and half he puts on a fake show that is just cringe-inducing to watch or hear. It just gets so incredibly tiresome to hear him try to joke or laugh away all bad things that he does, it lends him no gravitas what so ever. Equally, for how long has his post-race celebrations seemed completely disingenuous? Grow up, man. When he takes the flag and just tells the team "Awesome job, on to the next one" or something to that effect, give me a call. Until then I'll just sit back and enjoy people booing at him when he's on the podium.

[massafan4]

In my opinion, Vettel is one of the best drivers in the F1, but let's not forget that he has the fastest car on the track, so it's a great advantage for him. But with his last sunday's manner, turned me against him entirely, although he hadn't been my favorite driver before the certain event neither.

[pino]

Guys please lets stay on topic (Vettel) thanks :)

[Big Ben]

Three times champion in a row and runner up the year before. I don´t care about the car, Seb is one of the Great!

we have another thread for overrated drivers

Ai cung mu?n t?o c?m giác ?m cúng cho gia dình mình, nhung v?i d?ng c? gia dình nhi?u chi ti?t b?ng kim lo?i, sao t?o cho nhÃ* b?p c?m giác ?m cúng du?c? B?n hãy th? dùng mÃ*u s?c hòa d?u vÃ* t? nhiên, t? b?p b?ng g? don gi?n mang phong v? di?n viên, vân th? g? cao su mÃ*u nh?t có v? d?p thoát t?c, thanh nhã, khi?n phòng b?p cÃ*ng thêm trang nhã ?m cúng.

[djparky]

you don't win 3WDC's by not being good- but Seb has had the benefit of the best car since about mid 2009- but so has Webber- and he isn't a world champion.

There are very few drivers who can win WDC's without having the best car- Alonso almost did it last year, Schumacher in 1995, Prost in 1986 managed it as well- I guess you could argue that Button did that as well- the Brawn was far from the best car from about mid 2009...but in general the driver with the best car has won.

the real test for Seb will be when he doesn't have that car under him- unless he leaves RBR or Adrian Newey leaves we'll never know

[Knock-on]

I think this summs it up very well ^^

That Seb is a very good driver is not in discussion (for most people) but is he one of the very best?

In my opinion, he's flawed and will go a similar way to Schumacher. However, where Schumacher had great raw talent and thrust his way forward, Seb seems more capable of getting the car to perform to the maximum. More of a Prost type of approach than a Senna.

When the Red Newey is equal with a couple of other cars, we might see a more eratic Seb and some questionable tactics and driving. I think he's going to struggle when Alonso and Hamilton are sniffing his lunch.

[BDunnell]

When the Red Newey is equal with a couple of other cars, we might see a more eratic Seb and some questionable tactics and driving. I think he's going to struggle when Alonso and Hamilton are sniffing his lunch.

And, when that happens, he will throw his toys out of the pram in a way that Alonso doesn't and Hamilton seems to be learning not to do.

[wedge]

I don't think there's any comparison between the move today and the Schumacher/Barrichello incident. The latter went beyond the bounds of acceptability.

Webber showing his displeasure: Webber cuts up Vettel | Video | Watch TV Show | Sky Sports (http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/formula-1/8598669/webber-cuts-up-vettel)

[wedge]

When the Red Newey is equal with a couple of other cars, we might see a more eratic Seb and some questionable tactics and driving. I think he's going to struggle when Alonso and Hamilton are sniffing his lunch.

He's done it before.

This time last year he threw his toys and blamed Narain Karthikeyan for being in the way even though he couldn't overtake properly an swiped infront of Karthikeyan.

2010 Chinese GP he had the audacity to intimidate Hamilton in pitlane.

2010 Turkish GP he didn't like being squeezed by Webber and veered towards his team mate and collided. Blamed Webber via the hand signal for 'crazy', protected by team and since Marko has been sucking off Seb in public.

[henners88]

He's done it before.

This time last year he threw his toys and blamed Narain Karthikeyan for being in the way even though he couldn't overtake properly an swiped infront of Karthikeyan.

2010 Chinese GP he had the audacity to intimidate Hamilton in pitlane.

2010 Turkish GP he didn't like being squeezed by Webber and veered towards his team mate and collided. Blamed Webber via the hand signal for 'crazy', protected by team and since Marko has been sucking off Seb in public.
He also tried to squeeze Alonso against the pit-wall at Hockenheim '10 at the start and ended up losing many positions when Alonso didn't yield. He wouldn't accept blame. The same year at Silverstone he tried a similar tactic on Hamilton going into the first corner and slashed his rear tyre on Hamilton's front wing before sending himself to the back of the grid. We could also mention Suzuka '11 on Button. He has a history of being overly aggressive when racing alongside other drivers and is lucky its just ignorance that has been the outcome. So far.

[dj_bytedisaster]

There are very few drivers who can win WDC's without having the best car- Alonso almost did it last year, Schumacher in 1995, Prost in 1986 managed it as well- I guess you could argue that Button did that as well- the Brawn was far from the best car from about mid 2009...but in general the driver with the best car has won.

I would add Kimi in 2007 to that list. The McLaren was a lot better than the Ferrari, but Alonso and Hamilton lost quite a lot of points in their intra-team war, while Kimi lol'ed all the way to the title. The 1995 Benetton was actually not that far from the Williams. 1994 was a much bigger achievement, but it is clouded by how it ended.


the real test for Seb will be when he doesn't have that car under him- unless he leaves RBR or Adrian Newey leaves we'll never know
He might have shot himself in the foot in that regard on Sunday as a driver, who doesn't accept team orders unconditionally is not really an attractive prospect for other teams.

[Koz]

F1 Malaysian GP 2013 - Sebastian Vettel On Disobeying Team Orders - YouTube (http://youtu.be/kJgUMH8Nj2M)

Isn't it funny how people like use the word "truth" when they are spewing out blatant lies?

[Coulthard Fan]

You don't half talk some rubbish byte disaster! I would love to find out where you get your "facts" from! The 2007 Ferrari was on par with the Mclaren it wasn't a lot slower as you claimed.

[Coulthard Fan]

Vettel should have just said "I'm racing for a world title, Mark is going to be a close rival, I'm not going to lose points when a title is on the line" the Andy Priaulx phillosophy get as many points as possible early don't let anybody get a head start

[Coulthard Fan]

It's the annoying apology that winds me up! I'm not a fan of Mansell but you could never imagine him with his tail in between his legs apologising.

[DexDexter]

It's the annoying apology that winds me up! I'm not a fan of Mansell but you could never imagine him with his tail in between his legs apologising.

No, he just whined and whined and whined.

[dj_bytedisaster]

No, he just whined and whined and whined.

And he would have blamed his gearbox :D Nigel is one of my two favourite drivers, but his whining was legendary :D

[philipbain]

How Good Is Vettel? Very! You don't win a single WDC without being very good, you certainly don't win 3 on the bounce without being exceptional.

As for the "fallout" from Malaysia, I have to say that Mark Webber is a frustrated hypocrite (some after all call him "the chopper" for his many questionable blocking moves) who seems to lack the killer instinct, constancy and outright pace a lot of the time, Vettel has all this in droves and Mark can't handle it, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen! What happened to the F1 I grew up with and loved where drivers took matters to extremes sometimes but always kept you guessing as to what was going to happen next, whether it be spectacular but fair racing or outright skulduggery! Everyone these days is far too "soft and fruity" to borrow a phrase from George Carlin, someone else I miss greatly because he always called a spade a spade so to speak.

[jens]

I thought I'd leave the driving skills and „greatness“ discussion aside for now and ponder about his personal development and where his career could be heading to.

There is no question I have liked him throughout his career and keep supporting him. I like his positive demeanour and outgoing attitude (suits my character, to put it this way). I still believe in everyday life he is fundamentally a good person, like most of us are. Like I believe also Schumacher was. Or Senna, who in normal life appeared to be a warm-hearted person, who was working on eradicating poverty in Brazil.

But none of us can genuinely imagine, what it means, if those normal people – like all of us – sacrifice their whole life for just one goal, to become a racing driver. To win. To put your helmet on and sit in the car, where the rules of a normal life of being a good and friendly person don't apply anymore. A different dimension, where friends become rivals and you have got to beat them all – and this is not a game, your life and career depends on it. This has nothing to do about being a good person in general, it is about trying every trick in the book to come out on top in a fierce competition. And if you have sacrificed your whole life for it, you are going to take it very seriously – otherwise why bother?

Anyway, Vettel's mentality might suffer from something that can very easily happen to very successful people – they slightly lose touch with the ground. He has been so successful that he could feel he could start bending the rules and the team even. He needed a reality check. And he got one. We are discussing about whether his apology was sincere or not. But I see, where he is coming from. Because when he made that move he was full of adrenalin and excitement – with all his success behind him he couldn't bother about the big picture. He started thinking and analyzing about the bigger picture only later. Like all of us have mistakes in life, so do racing drivers. And learn from it.

Anyway, I think this could also be a time, when he starts thinking about a change in environment. His character is not fully developed – and he may feel that he needs to enhance it further. Many great drivers have felt the need to move on. Back in 2005-06 Alonso was described as a spoilt child, he realized he needed a change and moved on. Hamilton's mentality has been questioned at times – he realized it and needed a change. Many discuss about Webber's retirement now, but I am also thinking of Vettel's thoughts on his career.

I remember for the first time I entertained the thought of Hamilton getting fed up of McLaren and moving away from there after Oz GP in 2010. I think Malaysia 2013 may be a similar milestone for Sebastian. His relationship with the team members is not the same any more. Horner is not his happy buddy friend any more with who he can play instead of obeying to him. „I have been together with Horner and Webber for ages already – why should I bother any longer? Playing and working with them is not fun any more.“ I know there have been Vettel-Ferrari rumours for some time, but so far they all seemed like „fun games“ as well. Now for the first time Vettel might start pondering about options more seriously.

Where could he head in the long-run? Which career-option? From what I know, Sebastian's contract ends at the end of 2014. Alonso stays in Ferrari till 2016 at least and di Montezemolo has said they don't want „two roosters in the hen-house“, so maybe this is not that likely.

Mercedes? I am sure back in 2009 they thought about a long term plan like this „first Schumacher, then Vettel.“ But Merc got stuck in midfield for long, while Vettel hasn't been available. Meanwhile Hamilton has and they hired him. I don't know if Mercedes would consider replacing Rosberg with Vettel for 2015. And if the team wants such rivalry in the team.

Lotus-Vettel seems like a combo, which could be an attractive option to both of them. As long as Lotus has a stable ownership and finances – and of course a fast car.

McLaren-Honda sounds like an interesting challenge for 2015, but their corporate culture doesn't suit Vettel's character really. As we have seen, several other drivers have got tired there as well. So perhaps not a serious option really.

Interesting times ahead, not least for Sebastian himself, who has to decide, how to go on with his life and career.

[tfp]

It's the annoying apology that winds me up! I'm not a fan of Mansell but you could never imagine him with his tail in between his legs apologising.

Same here. If Bieber just stood up and said "mark, I'm a kn-ob, get over it" I wouldnt mind so much!

I agree with Jens in saying off the track he is probably a much more genuine guy than on the track.
The autosport awards are usually a good indication of this :D

[zako85]

Anyway, I think this could also be a time, when he starts thinking about a change in environment. His character is not fully developed – and he may feel that he needs to enhance it further. Many great drivers have felt the need to move on. Back in 2005-06 Alonso was described as a spoilt child, he realized he needed a change and moved on. Hamilton's mentality has been questioned at times – he realized it and needed a change. Many discuss about Webber's retirement now, but I am also thinking of Vettel's thoughts on his career.


In my opinion Vettel isn't moving anywhere because of this incident. It's just hard to think of anyone walking away from the "good thing", although it happened before. A more logical time for Vettel to leave the team is when things start going to bad to worse, perhaps when RBR loses some key people. If there will be a long lasting fallout from Malaysia GP, it's likely Webber's retirement after this year.

[henners88]

I don't think its out of the realms of possibility that Vettel may move on after what could be his fourth title. Banging out titles in a very good team is all well enough, but every driver needs a challenge and it would be a good time for Seb to look for that next challenge. He's still only 25 and has plenty of time to try something different. Like Hamilton he may want to fly the nest and build relationships with a new set of people.

[Koz]

I don't think its out of the realms of possibility that Vettel may move on after what could be his fourth title. Banging out titles in a very good team is all well enough, but every driver needs a challenge and it would be a good time for Seb to look for that next challenge. He's still only 25 and has plenty of time to try something different. Like Hamilton he may want to fly the nest and build relationships with a new set of people.

But where could he go?

Every top team has a world champion. Unless someone retires, there are no options. And I don't think anyone will.

And besides, next year might be wild. I don't see him leaving at the end of this year, because there is a challenge. And a record to break. If he doesn't win next year, he has a challenge 2015. By then Alonso, Kimi and Button will all probably be gone.

[henners88]

But where could he go?

Every top team has a world champion. Unless someone retires, there are no options. And I don't think anyone will.

And besides, next year might be wild. I don't see him leaving at the end of this year, because there is a challenge. And a record to break. If he doesn't win next year, he has a challenge 2015. By then Alonso, Kimi and Button will all probably be gone.
I wasn't suggesting he goes to another top team. I suggested he may want a 'challenge' therefore a team with promise that hasn't quite lived up to its potential. He may not want that of course its just speculation, but Hamilton wasn't tipped to end up at Mercedes a couple of years ago. Next year should be the leveller and hopefully the order are shaken up a bit. Its much needed.

[Malbec]

Vettel should have just said "I'm racing for a world title, Mark is going to be a close rival, I'm not going to lose points when a title is on the line"

This.

If Vettel had been straight to both Mark and the wider audience about what he'd done I wouldn't have minded half as much.

Instead he fobbed us off with "I f$cked up", "I made a mistake", "I didn't hear". Rubbish. He knew exactly what he was doing and the wider world knew and could understand exactly why too. Those 7 points he gained could come in handy come the end of the season when he fights for the WDC. He knows that, so do we. Either he wants us to believe that he's too stupid to understand a team order or he didn't have the strength of character to come out and tell the world exactly what he did. I suspect the latter but regardless it isn't a character trait worthy of respect.

Its a shame because I generally like Vettel and I believe he's a pretty fine all round driver, but he's also young and inexperienced in life and needs a strong hand to guide him. RBR have done anything but, tolerating his tantrums and refusing to give him clear boundaries until not surprisingly he went too far. Horner should have pitted him after overtaking Mark, if he didn't have the balls to tell Vettel it was to clip his wings he could have invented some technical problem that required checking over.

RBR need to remind him who is boss, fast. Otherwise in the future he will be even more out of control.

[Bagwan]

Drivers can be fragile little things .
But , they do put thier lives in the hands of the team from the start , hoping all the pieces are put togther correctly .
Nico said "Remember this ." before he got out of the car , and Lewis acknowedged the situation didn't feel too good(to his great credit-nice job Hammy) , so it seems nobody feels to good when a faster car is held up .

Sebastian would have been feeling the very same as Nico , with a driver ahead having been told to turn it down .

Nico did all he could to demonstrate how much faster he was , all but actually making a pass .
What he did was rather petulant , and necessitated Ross having to turn into "parent mode" , sounding exasperated at having to explain the situation .
Nico didn't cross that line .
And , Lewis felt was it was like to be gifted and humble about it .
Both learned about the bigger picture here , and it will be nothing but positive for Merc , in my opinion .

Meanwhile , over at Camp RedBull , the counsellors have lost control of the campers .
With "mumbo-jumbo 21" , Mark was told he would win , essentially , and he would have been just settling into the warm fuzzy of it all .
Into Seb's ears , it wasn't ever going to produce a warm fuzzy , and the lad , in a very short time , had to weigh up the positives and negatives of the situation , and make a decision whether to obey the order or not .

Presumably , the order meant for Seb , as well as Mark , to turn it down .
Mark made pointed remarks as to his engine mode being one of economy .

So , Seb knew it was then or never .
If you want to be ahead , this was the moment .

Mark was punked .

Seb lost a lot of respect in the pitlane that day .
Perhaps the camp counsellors should tip him over in a porta-potty to remind him not to put himself and his team in crappy situations .

And Mark just got the message that team orders at ReBull mean nothing .

[The Black Knight]

Hilarious, I was going to log on last night and say I expected there to a be a RBR issues now settled or resolved article this morning or on Friday. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance afterwards to show off my incredible fortune telling abilities but here it is:

Red Bull issues now 'settled', claims Helmut Marko | Red Bull | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN.co.uk (http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/104448.html)

Now only to convince the world that this is true.

[Knock-on]

:laugh:

He's full of crap, isn't he. So, business as usual at RB :D

[henners88]

Hilarious, I was going to log on last night and say I expected there to a be a RBR issues now settled or resolved article this morning or on Friday. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance afterwards to show off my incredible fortune telling abilities but here it is:

Red Bull issues now 'settled', claims Helmut Marko | Red Bull | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN.co.uk (http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/104448.html)

Now only to convince the world that this is true.
Yeah, as easy as that lol.

They wouldn't be human if they could settle things that quickly and easily. The Red Bull PR machine is full working order :)

[Wasted Talent]

This.....

BBC Sport - Mark Webber column (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893)

....

WT

[henners88]

This.....

BBC Sport - Mark Webber column (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893)

....

WT
I love the bit where he says he tried his best to beat Seb but couldn't pass lol. Hmmm we all watched that race Mark ;)

[Koz]

Hypocrite!!

Waaaaaaaaaaa! Multi21! Waaaaaaaaaa!

A liar and a hypocrite. Nice team.

[henners88]

Hypocrite!!

Waaaaaaaaaaa! Multi21! Waaaaaaaaaa!
Rubbish.

[dj_bytedisaster]

This.....

BBC Sport - Mark Webber column (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893)

....

WT

Does the best he can to humiliate himself, doesn't he?
Basically both Mark and vettel completely embarrassed themselves. Mark for suddenly expecting his vastly more successful team mate to obey a ridiculous team order - something he had distinctive problems to do in the pas according to his own account and Seb for doing what a racer does, but then cooking up that hilarious apology that was about as sincere as a Weng Xiabao speech about human rights. Should have had the balls to tell Horner where to shove that laughable team order.

But nobody lost more respect than Rosberg :( He's with Mercedes since day one. It should be HIS team, but instead he lets Brawn bend him over the nearest piece of furniture and do him up the backside over team radio in public. You don't become champion by letting people bang your rear end.

[Ranger]

Hypocrite!!

Waaaaaaaaaaa! Multi21! Waaaaaaaaaa!

A liar and a hypocrite. Nice team.

At no point did Mark lie about Silverstone in 2011.

Mark admitted straight away what he was doing and why he did it. You might not agree but at least he had the balls to admit it.

If you want a liar, here is some good footage:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJgUMH8Nj2M

That's right, the phrases "The truth..." and "I didn't know about it (team orders), otherwise I wouldn't take that much risk to pass" appear in the same sentence.

Very poor form.

[Ranger]

And as for the Silverstone team order, now you know who really runs the team:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY

[Koz]

At no point did Mark lie about Silverstone in 2011.

Mark admitted straight away what he was doing and why he did it. You might not agree but at least he had the balls to admit it.

If you want a liar, here is some good footage:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJgUMH8Nj2M

That's right, the phrases "The truth..." and "I didn't know about it (team orders), otherwise I wouldn't take that much risk to pass" appear in the same sentence.

Very poor form.


Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I posted a link to that very video earlier in this thread.

Mark being the hypocrite for disobeying team orders before and making a show of it this time and Vettel is a lying manipulative little c*nt.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I posted a link to that very video earlier in this thread.

Mark being the hypocrite for disobeying team orders before and making a show of it this time and Vettel is a lying manipulative little c*nt.

So we can agree that both of them made themselves look like utter tools on top of of that the embarrassment RB and Mercedes brought about themselves with their ridiculous team orders. Finding a donkey of the year will be hard with so many candidates in the running...

[henners88]

Mark being the hypocrite for disobeying team orders before and making a show of it this time and Vettel is a lying manipulative little c*nt.
Bad language aside, it has to be acknowledged that Webber wasn't the only person making a show of it this time. Horner, Newey and Marko all spoke about this. I don't think Mark is a hypocrite because he nearly ignored team orders in the past at all. It was clear by the discussions post race that all parties were aware of the agreement and it was ignored completely.The past has nothing to do with it. We don't know what was agreed or discussed prior to past races and can only base this outcome on what we know in the present.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Bad language aside, it has to be acknowledged that Webber wasn't the only person making a show of it this time. Horner, Newey and Marko all spoke about this. I don't think Mark is a hypocrite because he nearly ignored team orders in the past at all. It was clear by the discussions post race that all parties were aware of the agreement and it was ignored completely.The past has nothing to do with it. We don't know what was agreed or discussed prior to past races and can only base this outcome on what we know in the present.

Horner and Marko were just as critical of Mark's actions in the past. It's just that people forget easily. Seriously, Mark cannot expect his team mate to follow team orders when he 2 years earlier bragged to the media how he ignored it and on top of it failed to achieve his goal, which makes his display of indignation all the more cringeworthy. I still think he wasn't pissed off at Seb ignoring team orders, he was po'ed because Seb got past and he didn't in Silverstone 2011.

Both of them won't win any fair play award anytime soon. But if the alternative is letting the team stick it up your bum, like Rosberg, I'd take Vettels scumbaggery any time.

[Koz]

I am begining to think that the biggest donkies here are the people who see Mark as a hero for defying team orders, and Vettel the biggest douche every for doing the same.


Bad language aside, it has to be acknowledged that Webber wasn't the only person making a show of it this time. Horner, Newey and Marko all spoke about this. I don't think Mark is a hypocrite because he nearly ignored team orders in the past at all. It was clear by the discussions post race that all parties were aware of the agreement and it was ignored completely.The past has nothing to do with it. We don't know what was agreed or discussed prior to past races and can only base this outcome on what we know in the present.

No, not nearly. He just couldn't pull it off.
You are right, we don't know what was discussed in prior races, but in the end both ignored team orders. One couldn't pull it off, the other one blatantly lied about it.
Clearly, Vettel is very much in the wrong here but more so for the lying, not for disobeying team orders.

If this was Massa overtaking Alonso against Smedley's instructions, we'd all be cheering.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If this was Massa overtaking Alonso against Smedley's instructions, we'd all be cheering.

Except for some of the Tifosi. They'd be demanding his head :D Seriously though, Fernando wouldn't take such crap from his team in the first place and Domenicali would never ever ask him to stay behind Massa if he hasn't sown up the title yet.

[henners88]

Horner and Marko were just as critical of Mark's actions in the past. It's just that people forget easily. Seriously, Mark cannot expect his team mate to follow team orders when he 2 years earlier bragged to the media how he ignored it and on top of it failed to achieve his goal, which makes his display of indignation all the more cringeworthy. I still think he wasn't pissed off at Seb ignoring team orders, he was po'ed because Seb got past and he didn't in Silverstone 2011.

Both of them won't win any fair play award anytime soon. But if the alternative is letting the team stick it up your bum, like Rosberg, I'd take Vettels scumbaggery any time.


No, not nearly. He just couldn't pull it off.
You are right, we don't know what was discussed in prior races, but in the end both ignored team orders. One couldn't pull it off, the other one blatantly lied about it.
Clearly, Vettel is very much in the wrong here but more so for the lying, not for disobeying team orders.

If this was Massa overtaking Alonso against Smedley's instructions, we'd all be cheering.
I don't believe for one second Mark was incapable of getting past at Silverstone 2011. Not a chance. We can agree to disagree on that but it renders completely void IMO when used as a response to me. I'm not a fan of either driver, but I respect Webber more simply because he isn't afraid to speak his mind and stand up for himself. That seems to be interpreted as 'crying' or 'whining' but then again we all have access to the facts.


I am begining to think that the biggest donkies here are the people who see Mark as a hero for defying team orders, and Vettel the biggest douche every for doing the same.
If it makes you feel better to call me a donkey then so be it. It doesn't change a thing.

[zako85]

Vettel certainly has been helped by a fast car and a _great team_. Let's not forget the last part. Count how many times McLaren has botched its pit stops in the last thee years vs RedBull. Count how many RBR cars have won't due to a brilliant strategy. In the light of this, Vettel's three WDCs certainly weight less (per win) than say those of Ayrton Senna or Alain Prost. But I agree with Jens's first post. Vettel is clearly very fast, and he is still so far well on the way of becoming an all time F1 great IMO. With time he will get only more experienced and better, and he has plenty of it.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't believe for one second Mark was incapable of getting past at Silverstone 2011. Not a chance. We can agree to disagree on that but it renders completely void IMO when used as a response to me. I'm not a fan of either driver, but I respect Webber more simply because he isn't afraid to speak his mind and stand up for himself. That seems to be interpreted as 'crying' or 'whining' but then again we all have access to the facts.

I agree that he at least had the balls to say 'I ignored team orders' instead of cobbling together a half-arsed 'apology', but I don't believe for a second that Mark didn't seriously try to pull it off at Silverstone. What's the point of trying then? And especially, why brag to the media about it when ypou ultimately tucked tail anyways? No, IMHO, the difference is that Vettel wasn't naive enough to lobotomize his car's settings, relying on his team mate's adherence to team orders.

[Wasted Talent]

Vettel certainly has been helped by a fast car and a _great team_. Let's not forget the last part. Count how many times McLaren has botched its pit stops in the last thee years vs RedBull. Count how many RBR cars have won't due to a brilliant strategy. In the light of this, Vettel's three WDCs certainly weight less (per win) than say those of Ayrton Senna or Alain Prost. But I agree with Jens's first post. Vettel is clearly very fast, and he is still so far well on the way of becoming an all time F1 great IMO. With time he will get only more experienced and better, and he has plenty of it.

So Senna and Prost didn't have the best car at the time??

WT

[henners88]

I agree that he at least had the balls to say 'I ignored team orders' instead of cobbling together a half-arsed 'apology', but I don't believe for a second that Mark didn't seriously try to pull it off at Silverstone. What's the point of trying then? And especially, why brag to the media about it when ypou ultimately tucked tail anyways? No, IMHO, the difference is that Vettel wasn't naive enough to lobotomize his car's settings, relying on his team mate's adherence to team orders.
I think Mark was making a point very clear in that race and showed the team how much Vettel was holding him up by going alongside and backing off. He threatened the team order but chose to make his point without following through with it. His onboard footage from that race show he had numerous opportunities and gave the impression he was playing with Vettel to make his point. That is my opinion on that particular incident and hasn't changed in nearly two years. I don't believe for a second Vettel was too good at defending. Anyway, that's off topic and has nothing to do with 2013.

[zako85]

So Senna and Prost didn't have the best car at the time??

WT

I don't remember Prost's early years in detail, but Senna did not have the fastest car early on. It wasn't until he moved to McLaren when he got to drive truly fast car. His previous car, Lotus, was good only on certain weekends. In fact, some argue that Senna merely delayed Lotus's eventual demise.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think Mark was making a point very clear in that race and showed the team how much Vettel was holding him up by going alongside and backing off. He threatened the team order but chose to make his point without following through with it. His onboard footage from that race show he had numerous opportunities and gave the impression he was playing with Vettel to make his point. That is my opinion on that particular incident and hasn't changed in nearly two years. I don't believe for a second Vettel was too good at defending. Anyway, that's off topic and has nothing to do with 2013.

Quite frankly I don't make a distinction between those two instances. Both were showing ignorance of the teams wishes and in both cases the team orders were (at least in my opinion) inapropriate at the time. Back in 2011 Vettel was too far ahead in the standings to warrant holding Mark back for any reason and now in 2013 it was ridiculous to ask the reigning WDC to gift 7 points to his team mate, considering that he won two of his three titles by less a margin than said seven points.
You go to jail for both burglary and attempted burglary. The only difference is the length of time. And I still don't believe the fairy tale of Mark backing up at the last second. That's not the story he told to the media.

[The Black Knight]

I think Mark was making a point very clear in that race and showed the team how much Vettel was holding him up by going alongside and backing off. He threatened the team order but chose to make his point without following through with it. His onboard footage from that race show he had numerous opportunities and gave the impression he was playing with Vettel to make his point. That is my opinion on that particular incident and hasn't changed in nearly two years. I don't believe for a second Vettel was too good at defending. Anyway, that's off topic and has nothing to do with 2013.

That was never my impression since Mark said afterwards he ignored the teams instructions. I was actually at that GP so I watched it afterwards but only watched it once so I'm open to correction but I do remember him hounding him and he didn't look like someone that was holding back.

[Koz]

I don't believe for one second Mark was incapable of getting past at Silverstone 2011. Not a chance. We can agree to disagree on that but it renders completely void IMO when used as a response to me. I'm not a fan of either driver, but I respect Webber more simply because he isn't afraid to speak his mind and stand up for himself. That seems to be interpreted as 'crying' or 'whining' but then again we all have access to the facts.




I chose to race as hard and as fair as I thought was possible, trying my best to beat Seb. I got pretty close a couple of times but couldn't quite pull it off.

Straight from the horse's mouth. So, no, I can't agree to disagree.
[You quoted the post in which Wasted Talent provided a link to Webber's colum. So honestly don't know what you're on about.
There is one thing speaking your mind, but he ignored orders, so he should be able to accept the same from Vettel.
If the situation was reversed, he too would have attacked.

[henners88]

I suppose we draw our own conclusions. I'm not here to change anybody's minds, just giving my opinion on how I saw it. It's one of those situations where we as fans will never have the correct answer as we can't ask the people involved.

[BDunnell]

Straight from the horse's mouth. So, no, I can't agree to disagree.
[You quoted the post in which Wasted Talent provided a link to Webber's colum. So honestly don't know what you're on about.
There is one thing speaking your mind, but he ignored orders, so he should be able to accept the same from Vettel.
If the situation was reversed, he too would have attacked.

But he didn't actually pass, though, did he? This is the crucial reason why Sunday's incident has provoked so much discussion.

[henners88]

Straight from the horse's mouth. So, no, I can't agree to disagree.
[You quoted the post in which Wasted Talent provided a link to Webber's colum. So honestly don't know what you're on about.
There is one thing speaking your mind, but he ignored orders, so he should be able to accept the same from Vettel.
If the situation was reversed, he too would have attacked.

If you can't agree to disagree that's not my problem.

[Koz]

If you can't agree to disagree that's not my problem.


I suppose we draw our own conclusions. I'm not here to change anybody's minds, just giving my opinion on how I saw it. It's one of those situations where we as fans will never have the correct answer as we can't ask the people involved.

Dude? WTF?

Webber himself says he couldn't pass Vettel.
I'll take Webber's admission of failure rather than your opinion which has no basis.

Edit: Or are you saying Webber is a liar?

[dj_bytedisaster]

But he didn't actually pass, though, did he? This is the crucial reason why Sunday's incident has provoked so much discussion.

What is the difference in breaking into a house helping yourself to Granny's savings and braking into a house an failing to do so? You still broke into a house, didn't you?

[henners88]

Dude? WTF?

Webber himself says he couldn't pass Vettel.
I'll take Webber's admission of failure rather than your opinion which has no basis.

Edit: Or are you saying Webber is a liar?
That article was written during a week when the focus was very much on what was happening at Red Bull. I'm not calling Mark a liar, or Nico for that matter as they are very different in their approach once the dust has settled. I'm not asking you to agree with me, nor am I asking you to try and convince me otherwise. I think we've side tracked this thread enough with something irrelevant.

[Koz]

But he didn't actually pass, though, did he? This is the crucial reason why Sunday's incident has provoked so much discussion.

That's what I mean, should Vettel's success be condemned while Webber's failure commended?
Both actions are just as bad.

Nor did the Silverstone incident didn't lack discussion either, but for the exact opposite reason.

[Bagwan]

It's easy to see Mark as a hypocrite here , but it's also easy to forget that there would have been a few discussions about that incident where Mark defied orders, which , since both are still there , persumably came to some agreement about following orders .
Mark felt aggrieved at having to hold station and tried to pass , just like Seb here , as he felt that he was being placed in the number two slot .

He bothered to tell us that at this race , he had just followed his team's instructions and turned down his mapping , to cruise to the end .
So , it is easy to surmise that Mark and Seb had both agreed that they would follow instructions implicitly .
And also easy to figure that it was likely agreed that both would have equal status until a certain point in the season .

So , if there was a discussion and they came to some terms , it explains why everyone , but Sebastian , is upset .
Well , I guess Vettel is upset a little , if only for the tarnish on his shiny suit .

[Koz]

Possibly. But this isn't something new, this has been an ongoing issue for many years. And these issues are always "settled" but seem to remain.

Mark said before Brazil last year that he wouldn't help Seb in the race and would be looking out for himself, and his actions in the race showed this. It is hard for me to believe that they have agreements for the second race of the season, yet they didn't for the championship deciding race.

[henners88]

Possibly. But this isn't something new, this has been an ongoing issue for many years. And these issues are always "settled" but seem to remain.

Mark said before Brazil last year that he wouldn't help Seb in the race and would be looking out for himself, and his actions in the race showed this. It is hard for me to believe that they have agreements for the second race of the season, yet they didn't for the championship deciding race.
Maybe it was that particular race that changed things for the team. Perhaps they used their authority to decide if there are certain scenario's where one is ahead and the other is behind, they don't challenge when in the latter stages of the race. Hence why the team seem more annoyed about this incident than any in the past. Pure speculation.

[Firstgear]

But nobody lost more respect than Rosberg :( He's with Mercedes since day one. It should be HIS team, but instead he lets Brawn bend him over the nearest piece of furniture and do him up the backside over team radio in public. You don't become champion by letting people bang your rear end.

A little off topic, since this thread is about Vettel but I disagree with this statement. My read on this is that Merc drivers don't battle after the last stops. Rosberg showed he could've passed, thus showing he was the faster driver on that day. He also stayed behind as directed, showing he's a team player - and will be expecting the same when/if the time comes. So when the time comes and Lewis is behind him - he should be assured that the team will support him. At that point, he will find out if the team has decided on a #1. If they order him to let Lewis by, then yes, he's been screwed. If not, all he has to do is show that he is faster than Lewis in the majoirty of races and the team will gel around him. Lewis is fast but sometimes erratic, Rosberg unspectacular but more consistent. I don't think it would be wise for the team to put all their eggs into one basket this soon.

As for the Vettel/Webber situation: I don't think you can bring 2011 into it. We know Mark was given the order to stay behind and didn't listen. What we don't know is what was agreed upon before the race. If the drivers were given the go ahead to "race to the end - but don't end your race", then I think Mark would have every right to ignore the "stay put' message over the radio. We don't know the entire story there so we shouldn't use it as ammo against Mark now.

With last sunday's situation and Seb acting so...shall we say sheepishly after the race, we pretty much know the context. The agreement was to stay put after the last stops. Seb acted like the typical keyboard warrior we might see here on the forums...very brave in the cockpit (behind keyboard) but an embarrased little boy when face to face. I agree with what some others have said here. He should've defied orders openly (Stay put? Are you crazy? Tell Mark I'm coming for him!!!) and been willing to take the heat defending his actions (I'm #1 - these points may be the difference...), or stayed behind as ordered.
I know how I feel when I've been betrayed. It's a long season and he may need Mark's help - Mark may just help him into a wall after this.

Of course, he may have already signed for Ferrari and doesn't care about burning these bridges.

[Big Ben]

ask the reigning WDC to gift 7 points to his team mate

what a twisted way of seeing things. those 100 euros I'm not going to take from you, dj... it's my gift to you, ok?... nooo... no problem at all. you're welcome... you just owe me one, ok?

[Wasted Talent]

I don't remember Prost's early years in detail, but Senna did not have the fastest car early on. It wasn't until he moved to McLaren when he got to drive truly fast car. His previous car, Lotus, was good only on certain weekends. In fact, some argue that Senna merely delayed Lotus's eventual demise.

Exactly - Senna only won his WDCs in a McLaren-Honda - the best cars of the time

WT

[dj_bytedisaster]

what a twisted way of seeing things. those 100 euros I'm not going to take from you, dj... it's my gift to you, ok?... nooo... no problem at all. you're welcome... you just owe me one, ok?

What's your problem? Seb won two of his three WDC's by less than seven points. Why in the name of all that's holy should he give up on seven points for no good reason? Why did Senna never let Berger pass before he had sown up the title? Why should someone who#s gunning for a fourth straight title give seven points away that he might be missing by November? Because someone told him to by team radio?? This isn't My Little Ponies, we're talking the F-friggin'-One world championship.

And besides, you forget something here - Try to take 100 Euros from me and see if you can cope with the echo. Is it my fault that Mark keeled over without much of a fight or his own? Once seb was past he fell back by 2 seconds (4 in the end). If it had been me in that car (provided I had the talent to drive it, which I most definitely haven't) I would have crapped on the 'turn down your engine' order and hunted him down, but Mark just resorted to sulking. Overly manly man is different...

[henners88]

Mark certainly wasn't the sulkier of the two after the race, he looked more annoyed than anything and I certainly wouldn't want to tangle with Mark. Seb had a face like a slapped backside whilst going through the emotions of winning a race when none of his team wanted him to. It's all well saying Webber should have just fought back and tried to win but in this instance the damage was done and the fallout is much more effective with Seb having won. The point was made very nicely and it's not Marks reputation that's been dented. Reading the PR puff piece that came out of Red Bull was testament to that IMHO.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Mark certainly wasn't the sulkier of the two after the race, he looked more annoyed than anything and I certainly wouldn't want to tangle with Mark. Seb had a face like a slapped backside whilst going through the emotions of winning a race when none of his team wanted him to. It's all well saying Webber should have just fought back and tried to win but in this instance the damage was done and the fallout is much more effective with Seb having won. The point was made very nicely and it's not Marks reputation that's been dented. Reading the PR puff piece that came out of Red Bull was testament to that IMHO.

So Marks reputation was less damaged? How many WDC's does he have to show for it? How many times have we buried Schumachers reputation? Guess what, the dude's still a 7 times world champion. For me, Mark just sank himself. Vettel kicks him in the nuts and instead of kicking back, he waits for the teacher (Horner) to admonish him instead of making a fist and bashing Vettel's teeth in. So the thing that he offers in return is slamming a bottle on the table and looking a wee bit angry - any guy with half a ball would have knocked Vettel on his arse or at least fought back on track, but istead he begs for more kicks in the goolies by doing nothing. It's not like Vettel is Muhammad Ali...

[henners88]

It's amazing how differently this has been viewed.

[i_max2k2]

There is a pretty interesting article on James Allen's blog, I also noticed that in the last stint, Vettel was meant to be faster, was it almost like Red Bull wanted him to go faster and overtake Mark?

How strategy calls led to Vettel/Webber clash and Mercedes team ordersJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/how-strategy-calls-led-to-vettelwebber-clash-and-mercedes-team-orders/)

[Mia 01]

I have followed F1 a long time, followed MS whole career. Seb is as good as MS I think and has similar personality as can be understood by las Sundays antics.

Seb is one of the Great, no doubt.

[The Black Knight]

I have followed F1 a long time, followed MS whole career. Seb is as good as MS I think and has similar personality as can be understood by las Sundays antics.

Seb is one of the Great, no doubt.

He's definitely up there but he has more to prove before I regard him on the level of Schumacher or Senna. I think we are blessed to be witnessing the incredible level of talent which currently exists in F1. Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Rosberg are all amazing driver. Most people underrate Rosberg but I feel that this year we will see exactly what he can do and I think he is going to surprise Hamilton and Hammy is going to have his hands full :)

[CaptainRaiden]

Anybody who says Vettel hasn't had the best car by quite a margin for the last 3 years, is either A) Delusional, B) Living under a rock and C) Fooling themselves or D) A Vettel fan frothing at the mouth in front of his poster on their wall. He has enjoyed top-notch machinery and delivered 3 world championships.

Having said that, you need a bloody good driver to wring that kind of performance out of a car. Detractors have always been quick to dismiss a WDC because they had the quickest car. The same was said about Mika Hakkinen when he won with Mclaren or Alonso when he won with Renault. Well, why weren't DC or Fisichella able to win in those cars? Why isn't Webber able to win in that Red Bull?

Were/are the teams disadvantaging them and deliberately favoring one driver? Anybody who believes that, should stop watching F1 and get back to their soap operas.

So, in short, Vettel is good. How good? Well, worth 3 WDCs at this moment. Is he as good as Alonso or Hamilton? There is no quantifiable way to ever find that out UNLESS they are racing for the same team and driving the same cars. The rest is just speculation, as is my opinion that Alonso and Hamilton are better drivers. But it's just that, an opinion of a fan.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Most people underrate Rosberg but I feel that this year we will see exactly what he can do and I think he is going to surprise Hamilton and Hammy is going to have his hands full :)

How would he do that? He just let Brawn screw him up his rear end in public and with that he comprehensivly made himsef the Mark Webber at Mercedes - the designated #2 driver.

[i_max2k2]

Anybody who says Vettel hasn't had the best car by quite a margin for the last 3 years, is either A) Delusional, B) Living under a rock and C) Fooling themselves or D) A Vettel fan frothing at the mouth in front of his poster on their wall. He has enjoyed top-notch machinery and delivered 3 world championships.

Having said that, you need a bloody good driver to wring that kind of performance out of a car. Detractors have always been quick to dismiss a WDC because they had the quickest car. The same was said about Mika Hakkinen when he won with Mclaren or Alonso when he won with Renault. Well, why weren't DC or Fisichella able to win in those cars? Why isn't Webber able to win in that Red Bull?

Were/are the teams disadvantaging them and deliberately favoring one driver? Anybody who believes that, should stop watching F1 and get back to their soap operas.

So, in short, Vettel is good. How good? Well, worth 3 WDCs at this moment. Is he as good as Alonso or Hamilton? There is no quantifiable way to ever find that out UNLESS they are racing for the same team and driving the same cars. The rest is just speculation, as is my opinion that Alonso and Hamilton are better drivers. But it's just that, an opinion of a fan.

I do agree with this, I think Vettel is a good driver, but for me to think of him as a great, be it comparing to Senna or Schumacher, its gonna take a lot more from him, most of his drives so far have been good, but nothing really stands out as amazing, yet. I would like to see more cars coming close to the Red Bull, more often, and see how he compares, so far whenever that has happened, he has not fared as well.

[dj_bytedisaster]

That's not quite true. Some of his drives in the Toro Rosso were amazing. Some were absolutely abysmal, like him rear-ending Webber, but the fact remains than nobody ever has collected 4th and 5th places in a Toro Rosso but him, not to mention that win at Monza which was simply epic. He isn't quite on a 'Senna in a Lotus' level yet, but saying that his achievements are all down to the car show a lack of knowledge about F1. I would compare him to Mika Hakkinen - not the most spectacular driver, but damn fast.

[airshifter]

How would he do that? He just let Brawn screw him up his rear end in public and with that he comprehensivly made himsef the Mark Webber at Mercedes - the designated #2 driver.

Against strong protest by Nico, Brawn held the line and made no exception to the team order already issued. That doesn't in my opinion designate him a #2 driver. I would venture that unless Lewis has an iron clad contract designating him the #1 driver, Ross will allow Nico to race unless the time comes that only 1 driver has a shot at the WDC. Being a team player isn't being screwed in public IMO.

[DexDexter]

But where could he go?

Every top team has a world champion. Unless someone retires, there are no options. And I don't think anyone will.

And besides, next year might be wild. I don't see him leaving at the end of this year, because there is a challenge. And a record to break. If he doesn't win next year, he has a challenge 2015. By then Alonso, Kimi and Button will all probably be gone.

I don't see Alonso retiring at 34, in 2015. Even Jenson is only 35 then. Kimi will probably be gone cause he's again bored.

[i_max2k2]

This! +1


Against strong protest by Nico, Brawn held the line and made no exception to the team order already issued. That doesn't in my opinion designate him a #2 driver. I would venture that unless Lewis has an iron clad contract designating him the #1 driver, Ross will allow Nico to race unless the time comes that only 1 driver has a shot at the WDC. Being a team player isn't being screwed in public IMO.

It didn't seem to me either, that the protest was coming from someone, what had #2 written in his contract, I mean if Lewis has #1 in his then Nico should have the #2 clause. His protest was way too loud for an contractual obligation to exist. I think it was just Brawn's thinking that the order should preserve till the end, and they did race for a little, and I guess they also weren't sure of the tyres, as how long they might last. They probably wanted to avoid what happened to Kimi at Malaysia/China , can't remember, when he tumbled down the field.

[tfp]

Anybody who says Vettel hasn't had the best car by quite a margin for the last 3 years, is either A) Delusional, B) Living under a rock and C) Fooling themselves or D) A Vettel fan frothing at the mouth in front of his poster on their wall. He has enjoyed top-notch machinery and delivered 3 world championships.

Having said that, you need a bloody good driver to wring that kind of performance out of a car. Detractors have always been quick to dismiss a WDC because they had the quickest car. The same was said about Mika Hakkinen when he won with Mclaren or Alonso when he won with Renault. Well, why weren't DC or Fisichella able to win in those cars? Why isn't Webber able to win in that Red Bull?

Were/are the teams disadvantaging them and deliberately favoring one driver? Anybody who believes that, should stop watching F1 and get back to their soap operas.

So, in short, Vettel is good. How good? Well, worth 3 WDCs at this moment. Is he as good as Alonso or Hamilton? There is no quantifiable way to ever find that out UNLESS they are racing for the same team and driving the same cars. The rest is just speculation, as is my opinion that Alonso and Hamilton are better drivers. But it's just that, an opinion of a fan.

Agree with everything here.


I do agree with this, I think Vettel is a good driver, but for me to think of him as a great, be it comparing to Senna or Schumacher, its gonna take a lot more from him, most of his drives so far have been good, but nothing really stands out as amazing, yet. I would like to see more cars coming close to the Red Bull, more often, and see how he compares, so far whenever that has happened, he has not fared as well.

His one win with Toro rosso was a lucky one, but he did totally punch WAY above his weight there.
Also his drive in Abu Dhabi was one of the best performances from anyone all season.

[dj_bytedisaster]

This! +1



It didn't seem to me either, that the protest was coming from someone, what had #2 written in his contract, I mean if Lewis has #1 in his then Nico should have the #2 clause. His protest was way too loud for an contractual obligation to exist. I think it was just Brawn's thinking that the order should preserve till the end, and they did race for a little, and I guess they also weren't sure of the tyres, as how long they might last. They probably wanted to avoid what happened to Kimi at Malaysia/China , can't remember, when he tumbled down the field.

But still leaves the fact that the team order didn't make any real sense. According to the team radio Lewis had to go slow to save fuel, while Nico hadn't, He could simply have out-DRS'ed Lewis on the straight with no danger of crashing into each other and the team would have scored the same amount of points. In that way the team order did achieve absolutely nothing.

[Knock-on]

DJ. It was probably a team directive that drivers could race each other until after the last pit stop and then to hold station. You can do what you want up till then not race against each other after that. It's not difficult to understand unless you choose not to?

Nico respected it and Seb didn't.

[dj_bytedisaster]

DJ. It was probably a team directive that drivers could race each other until after the last pit stop and then to hold station. You can do what you want up till then not race against each other after that. It's not difficult to understand unless you choose not to?


Understanding it as in 'getting it' is one thing, understanding it as something acceptable is something else. This isn't synchronized swimming or any warm sh*t like that. This is called F1, the top of world motorsport. Instead we're getting something that is organized and scripted. That's unacceptable, even moreso in only the scond race.

Yes, Seb disregarded it and I would have a lot of respect for him, had he said so afterwards instead of cooking up this half-arsed 'apology'. Nico caved in and practically handed over his balls to the team for crushing.

[zako85]

I do agree with this, I think Vettel is a good driver, but for me to think of him as a great, be it comparing to Senna or Schumacher, its gonna take a lot more from him, most of his drives so far have been good, but nothing really stands out as amazing, yet. I would like to see more cars coming close to the Red Bull, more often, and see how he compares, so far whenever that has happened, he has not fared as well.

I think in his current stint with RedBull, Vettel has accomplished what roughly Schummi did at Benetton or better. So I view current Vettel's accomplishments in the same equivalence class with Schummi pre-Ferrari. Time will show if Vettel will be able to achieve the overall greatness of Schumacher.

[zako85]

Yes, Seb disregarded it and I would have a lot of respect for him, had he said so afterwards instead of cooking up this half-arsed 'apology'. Nico caved in and practically handed over his balls to the team for crushing.

This is not how things are done in F1. You don't get adversarial in public with your team, manager, or sponsors unless you're prepared to part with them. Vettel did his best not to get even more adversarial with Webber and to put a good public face on what happened in the last race.

[henners88]

Understanding it as in 'getting it' is one thing, understanding it as something acceptable is something else. This isn't synchronized swimming or any warm sh*t like that. This is called F1, the top of world motorsport. Instead we're getting something that is organized and scripted. That's unacceptable, even moreso in only the scond race.

Yes, Seb disregarded it and I would have a lot of respect for him, had he said so afterwards instead of cooking up this half-arsed 'apology'. Nico caved in and practically handed over his balls to the team for crushing.
Nico didn't cave in, he followed orders given to him by his boss and did so reluctantly. The Mercedes drivers were allowed to race until the latter stages and like Red Bull, it seems the team were happy with this until the final pit stops. This isn't anything new. McLaren have done the same thing with their drivers for years now, but its only now we have access to live instructions via radio link. As any fan I would like to see drivers race it out until the end of the last lap, but at the end of the day the team is bigger than any driver. What they instruct should really be obeyed, and drivers who do what Seb did just make life difficult for themselves. I think its disrespectful to describe such actions with crude sexual undertones too. We don't need to see it described as such. Nico is a very good driver and will no doubt find himself benefiting from Lewis at some point this season. I expected their performance to be close before the season started and have no doubt they are equal within Mercedes. With China approaching we have a circuit where both drivers have good histories and its nice to have a team mate battle that's difficult to call.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think its disrespectful to describe such actions with crude sexual undertones too. We don't need to see it described as such. Nico is a very good driver and will no doubt find himself benefiting from Lewis at some point this season. I expected their performance to be close before the season started and have no doubt they are equal within Mercedes. With China approaching we have a circuit where both drivers have good histories and its nice to have a team mate battle that's difficult to call.

I think it is ridiculously naive to see this as anything but giving Lewis a gentle scratch behind the ears. He wasn't able to keep his team mate in check but was still gifted a podium he didn't deserve. Mercedes have two options now - they either continue to favour Lewis blatantly or they continue to favour any of them drivers arbitrarily. If the latter happens, we'll call them window-licking idots at the end of the year for wasting points if option one happens, Nico just sank his own career. In any case - they lost.
Bum****ing your German driver as a German manufacturer isn't the smartest of ideas, especially if it was done for an Englishman. Some of my best friends are from Blighty, so I'm not exactly representative of my country, but many of my compatriots are not exactly thrilled with it. I couldn't care less if Nico was screwed for an Englishman or Jebus Christ himself,I simply think it's wrong. but many Germans took it hard what happened at Malaysia.
Mind you, that doesn't mean that anyone would demand Nico to be preferred over Lewis, just because he's the German in a German team. many people were just miffed with the rude stiffling of chances. SEB/Mark were a different case - they were pretty muchg on the same pace, while Lewis' car was crippled and still Nico was verboten to overtake. Many (me included) see this as a bad injustice.

[henners88]

Bum****ing your German driver as a German manufacturer isn't the smartest of ideas, especially if it was done for an Englishman. Some of my best friends are from Blighty, so I'm not exactly representative of my country, but many of my compatriots are not exactly thrilled with it. I couldn't care less if Nico was screwed for an Englishman or Jebus Christ himself,I simply think it's wrong. but many Germans took it hard what happened at Malaysia.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that anyone would demand Nico to be preferred over Lewis, just because he's the German in a German team. many people were just miffed with the rude stiffling of chances. SEB/Mark were a different case - they were pretty muchg on the same pace, while Lewis' car was crippled and still Nico was verboten to overtake. Many (me included) see this as a bad injustice.
I don't mind being considered naive at this point and am confident things will play out differently at a later date. Sorry to hear your fellow compatriots were disappointed, but its very different over here. The Brackley outfit are still considered to be a local British team albeit with German money. When Mercedes pull out eventually this team will evolve into something else and who knows where the money will come from? One thing is for certain it'll still be situated by the A43 opposite Tesco and employing a workforce from around the country. Its best not to get too patriotic. There will be times when Nico out qualifies Lewis and times where he overtakes and finishes in front. I don't believe the team have a favoured driver at all. I think Mercedes screwed up in Malaysia with the fuel and because Lewis is new, they wanted to give him something for the effort. They allowed both drivers to race for most of the race but when it came down to the last 8 or 9 laps, they made the call. Nico's turn will come.

PS: I know I mentioned it in my previous post and you obviously ignored it, but do you have to describe Nico's position in such a crude sexual way? Its a family forum after all and there are more intelligent ways of making the point. Just a polite request. :)

[donKey jote]

Please stop pointing out crude sexual descriptions in bold, at the end of the day it's a family forum and after all you're just bringing more attention to them. I doubt anyone even noticed the previous one. Just a polite request. :andrea: :p

[henners88]

Hysterical.

[steveaki13]

This like many threads, appears to have turned a bit catholic or was that chaotic?

Anyway. I think Dj is taking it way out of context. I think it was like Red Bull just wanted a no fuss 1-2 and Mercedes wanted a 3-4.

I am pretty sure in the next few races if positions are reversed then Nico will be kept ahead. Lets not react to wildly until we know for sure what the situation is.


Also I have to agree with Henners, whats the need to describe the team orders in such a provocative way.

[Mia 01]

If Lotus not pay Kimi his bonuses for 2012 there´s a strong possibility that we will see how good Seb is next year. Or, if Alonso not take the crown this year Ferrari will offer Seb something he cant refuse, then it is Fernandos responsibility.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Anyway. I think Dj is taking it way out of context. I think it was like Red Bull just wanted a no fuss 1-2 and Mercedes wanted a 3-4.


Well, I think I understand what RB and Merc wanted, but many people here shout that drivers should be team players. But team play isn't a one-way road. If drivers are expected to respect the team's interests, the teams should do so with the driver's wishes. Those don't always match, but there is a thing called 'a compromise'.

Let's have a look at the RB situation. Vettel was pretty much faster than Webber all weekend and he gambled in quali to save himself an extra set of fresh softer tires. With the current clown tires that's a huge strategic advantage he worked hard and took risks for.
Then at the first stop it went pear shaped, because he was called in two laps too early. That's what gave Mark the lead, not his stellar driving. At the last stop Vettel took on his extra set of softs and on the one and a half laps until Mark's stop he took a mammoth 4 seconds out of Mark and was right on his tailpipe in no time. So basically the MULTI21 was code for 'We know you gambled to get that extra set of fresh tires, but now we screw you obver and don't allow you to make use of it, because we only care about the constructor's points'.
What kept them from saying 'Seb you have 3 laps to make it work. If you can't please back off and make sure the tires don't go boom. and for Pete's sake don't pile into Mark'. That would have been a reasonable compromise between Vettel's interests and the team's. They chose to enforce their interests 100% by Order de Mufti and Vettel enforced his. Only one could win.

[airshifter]

DJ I still think you are only looking at one side of the coin. If RB decided that the race was over after the last stop, it wouldn't matter if Vettel was faster. It would only matter who was in the lead after the last round of stops. I would agree that they should warn both drivers in advance if this is going to be their strategy, but doing so might lead the drivers to push harder and take excess risks in the earlier parts of the race. So to some extent the teams have to adjust strategy on the fly.

[dj_bytedisaster]

DJ I still think you are only looking at one side of the coin. If RB decided that the race was over after the last stop, it wouldn't matter if Vettel was faster. It would only matter who was in the lead after the last round of stops. I would agree that they should warn both drivers in advance if this is going to be their strategy, but doing so might lead the drivers to push harder and take excess risks in the earlier parts of the race. So to some extent the teams have to adjust strategy on the fly.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. The team knew that Vettel had saved an extra set of tires and those are almost ALWAYS used at the end of the race. By pre-determining that the race will be over after the last pitstop would be essentially a huge kick in the goolies for their #1 driver not to mention defrauding paying customers, who paid to see a whole race, not only 80% of it. That's just preposterous.
By making up the deficit on Mark in just the 2 laps between their pitstops by using his fresh tires to full extent, he put himself into a position of legitimetly challenging for a win.
And there is still the need to compromise between driver and team interests. You can't go ahead as a team and say 'f*ck you, we don't care if you become world champion, we just want the constructor points.' But that's exactly what they did when they asked a three time WDC to give away more points than the winning margin of two of his three titles. Not to mention that they asked him to give up the tire advantage that he worked hard for half the weekend. Mark only had scrubbed hard tires left and Vettel had an extra brand spanking new set of mediums. What did the RB guys smoke when they thought he'd go with that crap in just the second race of the year?
And there is another thing. When Vettel asked to 'get Mark out of his way' they told him to hang back because 'it's a long race'. They did that again a bit later when they asked him to be not too agressive because 'there is still time' and whe he finally gets on Mark's tailpipe they say - 'stay behind'. What kind of trolling is that? Frankly instead of his haöf-arsed appology he should have uttered a few choice words toward the team. Maybe he should do a communication seminar with Juan Pablo Montoya to learn what 'having balls' is about.

[Firstgear]

Well, I think I understand what RB and Merc wanted, but many people here shout that drivers should be team players. But team play isn't a one-way road. If drivers are expected to respect the team's interests, the teams should do so with the driver's wishes. Those don't always match, but there is a thing called 'a compromise'.

Let's have a look at the RB situation. Vettel was pretty much faster than Webber all weekend and he gambled in quali to save himself an extra set of fresh softer tires. With the current clown tires that's a huge strategic advantage he worked hard and took risks for.
Then at the first stop it went pear shaped, because he was called in two laps too early. That's what gave Mark the lead, not his stellar driving. At the last stop Vettel took on his extra set of softs and on the one and a half laps until Mark's stop he took a mammoth 4 seconds out of Mark and was right on his tailpipe in no time. So basically the MULTI21 was code for 'We know you gambled to get that extra set of fresh tires, but now we screw you obver and don't allow you to make use of it, because we only care about the constructor's points'.
What kept them from saying 'Seb you have 3 laps to make it work. If you can't please back off and make sure the tires don't go boom. and for Pete's sake don't pile into Mark'. That would have been a reasonable compromise between Vettel's interests and the team's. They chose to enforce their interests 100% by Order de Mufti and Vettel enforced his. Only one could win.
I'd just like to address the two things that I bolded in your post.
First - Yes, there is a thing called compromise, but there's also a thing called employer-employee relationship. It's different than a marriage where both partners are supposed to be equal. It's more of a hirarchy, and Vettel seems to have it backwards, acting as if he's bigger than the team/employer.
Second - I think it would be more correct if you would have said "the team gambled in quali". The team saved him a set of tires, I would think, in anticipation of fighting Kimi or Alonso in the later stages, not his teammate.

[Bagwan]

Well, I think I understand what RB and Merc wanted, but many people here shout that drivers should be team players. But team play isn't a one-way road. If drivers are expected to respect the team's interests, the teams should do so with the driver's wishes. Those don't always match, but there is a thing called 'a compromise'.

Let's have a look at the RB situation. Vettel was pretty much faster than Webber all weekend and he gambled in quali to save himself an extra set of fresh softer tires. With the current clown tires that's a huge strategic advantage he worked hard and took risks for.
Then at the first stop it went pear shaped, because he was called in two laps too early. That's what gave Mark the lead, not his stellar driving. At the last stop Vettel took on his extra set of softs and on the one and a half laps until Mark's stop he took a mammoth 4 seconds out of Mark and was right on his tailpipe in no time. So basically the MULTI21 was code for 'We know you gambled to get that extra set of fresh tires, but now we screw you obver and don't allow you to make use of it, because we only care about the constructor's points'.
What kept them from saying 'Seb you have 3 laps to make it work. If you can't please back off and make sure the tires don't go boom. and for Pete's sake don't pile into Mark'. That would have been a reasonable compromise between Vettel's interests and the team's. They chose to enforce their interests 100% by Order de Mufti and Vettel enforced his. Only one could win.

A question for you , sir :
Do you have , or have you ever had employees ?

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'd just like to address the two things that I bolded in your post.
First - Yes, there is a thing called compromise, but there's also a thing called employer-employee relationship. It's different than a marriage where both partners are supposed to be equal. It's more of a hirarchy, and Vettel seems to have it backwards, acting as if he's bigger than the team/employer.

All valid points, but it is not supposed to be an Emperor/Serf relationship either. I was born and raised in East Germany. I know the result of one side calling the shots and one side expected to follow instructions without thinking for himself. Trust me, it's the second best solution. Where were all you people calling for slavish obedience, when Mark gave the team the finger in the past? Is it acceptable for an employer to troll his employees the way RB did with Vettel (telling him to hold back in lap 26 only to forbid him from racing when he catches Mark?)


Second - I think it would be more correct if you would have said "the team gambled in quali". The team saved him a set of tires, I would think, in anticipation of fighting Kimi or Alonso in the later stages, not his teammate.

Ah yeah, how convenient. If it is a good thing, like saving a set of tires - put the credit on the team and if it is a mistimed pitstop, blame it on the driver. That the team does all the work might be the case in dictatorships like McLaren, but as far as I know, such things have mostly been decided by the drivers and their race engineers at RB in the past. That is why we saw Button and Perez clowning arownd on slicks in the wet quali at Melbourne and Mark and Vettel didn't do such stuff. Vettel had a major hand in the quali gamble and has to take most of the blame for the mistimed first pitstop as the team had asked him to tell them, when the track was good enough and Vettel got it wrong.
So if they're prepared to put the ball in his court for the timing of the tire change, they cannot deny him a say in whether to overtake his team mate or not. It's just inconsistent.

[dj_bytedisaster]

A question for you , sir :
Do you have , or have you ever had employees ?

Yes. I've been running my own company since 2004.

[Firstgear]

Ah yeah, how convenient. If it is a good thing, like saving a set of tires - put the credit on the team and if it is a mistimed pitstop, blame it on the driver.
Vettel is part of the team, so yes the team saved him a set of tires. The engineers/analysts came up with a do-able plan to get an advantage, and Vettel executed it, resulting in a set of extra tires.
Mistimed pitstop? I can't remember him being blamed for a mistimed pitstop. If he came in a bit later than others, I'd say it's the prudent thing to do. When you're trying to win a championship you have to minimize mistakes and finish high in the points consistently (like Alonso showed last year). If you're gambling for one good result/win, then you can come in first in tricky conditions and try to luck into something. So I think Vettel did the right thing. A podium due to a late pitstop is better than aquaplaning into the gravel because you came in too early.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel is part of the team, so yes the team saved him a set of tires. The engineers/analysts came up with a do-able plan to get an advantage, and Vettel executed it, resulting in a set of extra tires.
Mistimed pitstop? I can't remember him being blamed for a mistimed pitstop. If he came in a bit later than others, I'd say it's the prudent thing to do. When you're trying to win a championship you have to minimize mistakes and finish high in the points consistently (like Alonso showed last year). If you're gambling for one good result/win, then you can come in first in tricky conditions and try to luck into something. So I think Vettel did the right thing. A podium due to a late pitstop is better than aquaplaning into the gravel because you came in too early.

The mistimed pitstop was his first, where he changed from Inters to slicks. He came in at lap 5 which was two laps early and lost him the lead. Did you even watch the race??

[Bagwan]

Yes. I've been running my own company since 2004.

It's hard to give an example in your field , not knowing what that is , but how would you treat an employee who directly disregards a request , risking not just his/her own work to the moment , but also the future economic success of your business , at the same time as causing extreme disruption within the business , itself ?

[Firstgear]

The mistimed pitstop was his first, where he changed from Inters to slicks. He came in at lap 5 which was two laps early and lost him the lead. Did you even watch the race??
I watched it - but it seems so long ago. I thought he lost the lead coming in after the others.
You say he came in too early, eh? - well with a screw up like that, the team should take away his #1 driver status. :D

[gloomyDAY]

How would he do that? He just let Brawn screw him up his rear end in public and with that he comprehensivly made himsef the Mark Webber at Mercedes - the designated #2 driver.I totally agree. Rosberg should've told Brawn to "go f-ing swivel" and passed Hamilton. After taking a week to think about the incident I see that Vettel made the smart decision by passing Webber. On the day that Alonso had a DNF, Vettel made sure that he got maximum points in order to start a strong WDC campaign.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It's hard to give an example in your field , not knowing what that is , but how would you treat an employee who directly disregards a request , risking not just his/her own work to the moment , but also the future economic success of your business , at the same time as causing extreme disruption within the business , itself ?

The field is software engineering or as we used to call it in the olden days - programming. Aren't you over-dramatizing Vettels actions here? He didn't jeopardize the future success of RB. The most he jeopardized were 40 points on a day when the closest and most likely opposition (Ferrari, Lotus) graciously decided to not score much.
First of all, many people (and sadly RB included) don't give enought credits to Mark and Seb for their ability to race each other. They crashed ONCE - almost three years ago. If you feel a need to still use that as an excuse to forbid them to race each other, you need new drivers.
As for the comparison to my employees. Well you can't really compare that. First of all, I don't troll my employees like RB did with Vettel, so I tend to think that my folks aren't often in a situation, where they feel like disregarding my requests. I also don't tell my employees that they can't type more than sixty characters a minute 'to save the keyboard'.
If someone would disregard a request of mine that was idiotic to begin with, i'd lock myself into my office hoping that the embarrassment would pass. If someone disregarded a request and botched things up, he'd find his family jewels in the dog's food bowl. But if he made it work, I'd ask him his reasons for disregarding me, he'd get the chance to come up with an explanation. But if he decided to come up with a lame apology that's as sincere as a human rights speech by Wen Jiabao, woofy would get an extra ration of balls. I don't run my company like North Korea. If you want to get the best out of people, you have to work with them - not rule them.
If I had been at that pit wall, I would have granted Vettel at least an attempt to make his intentions work, but they didn't.

[Bagwan]

The field is software engineering or as we used to call it in the olden days - programming. Aren't you over-dramatizing Vettels actions here? He didn't jeopardize the future success of RB. The most he jeopardized were 40 points on a day when the closest and most likely opposition (Ferrari, Lotus) graciously decided to not score much.
First of all, many people (and sadly RB included) don't give enought credits to Mark and Seb for their ability to race each other. They crashed ONCE - almost three years ago. If you feel a need to still use that as an excuse to forbid them to race each other, you need new drivers.
As for the comparison to my employees. Well you can't really compare that. First of all, I don't troll my employees like RB did with Vettel, so I tend to think that my folks aren't often in a situation, where they feel like disregarding my requests. I also don't tell my employees that they can't type more than sixty characters a minute 'to save the keyboard'.
If someone would disregard a request of mine that was idiotic to begin with, i'd lock myself into my office hoping that the embarrassment would pass. If someone disregarded a request and botched things up, he'd find his family jewels in the dog's food bowl. But if he made it work, I'd ask him his reasons for disregarding me, he'd get the chance to come up with an explanation. But if he decided to come up with a lame apology that's as sincere as a human rights speech by Wen Jiabao, woofy would get an extra ration of balls. I don't run my company like North Korea. If you want to get the best out of people, you have to work with them - not rule them.
If I had been at that pit wall, I would have granted Vettel at least an attempt to make his intentions work, but they didn't.

The team got the same number of points it wanted , but , instead of them seeing two smiling faces on the podium , they got sour mugs on both .
In my experience , a sour expression on any member of the team says you're in for a rough ride .

You need everyone pulling to win , at the same time .

They now have two drivers who they will have trouble controlling , not just one .


As you mentioned earlier in the thread , it was Sebastian's own mistake , coming in too early , that put him behind .
What then , gave him the right to fight Mark , when the team asked him to hold station ?

[dj_bytedisaster]

The team got the same number of points it wanted , but , instead of them seeing two smiling faces on the podium , they got sour mugs on both .
In my experience , a sour expression on any member of the team says you're in for a rough ride .

The team wanted full points and had Vettel obeyed they would have two drivers close in the championship with Alonso a good way behind. Vettel disobeyed and they got full points, a three times champion firmly in the lead for a fourth and Alonso even further behind. It's a no-brainer.


You need everyone pulling to win , at the same time.
They won in the past with Mark doing his best not to pull for the championship. Team spirit at RB has obviously been optional in the past.



They now have two drivers who they will have trouble controlling , not just one.
Vettel has so far been fairly 'controllable'. The only reason for him challenging Horners authority is, because the team pulled a stupid prank on him. He wouldn't be a WDC if he accepted stuff like that. The only lose canon in that team has always been Mark, who felt himself entitled to actions he couldn't back up with results.


As you mentioned earlier in the thread , it was Sebastian's own mistake , coming in too early , that put him behind .
What then , gave him the right to fight Mark , when the team asked him to hold station ?

Very simple. Because he wiped the floor with Mark all weekend, had caught him by lap 26 despite losing about 5 seconds to Mark by his mistimed stop - meaning that he was a damn sight quicker and had the strategic advantage of still having a brand-spanking new set of mediums, which Mark hadn't.

On lap 26 he was told: “Try to look after your tyres, you’re too close in the fast corners.”

He has to stay put while Mark tried to do 'high 41's delta driving' with Lewis closing in on Vettel, who wanted past to get away from HAM.

On lap 28 Vettel became impatient staying behind Webber and said: “Mark is too slow, get him out of the way, he’s too slow”
Reply: “Understood, look after your tyres.” shortly after followed by: “Sebastian be patient, only half race yet.”

So with being told to wait for the right time (to get past presumably), he hung back as the team requested, while Webber put in a few fast laps, probably po'ed by the 'get him out of the way' thing.

All this 'hang back' thing allowed Lewis to sneak past Vettel and being stuck behind the Merc meant he lost 4.2 seconds on Webber. He made up tose 4.2 seconds over just two laps, when he got his shiny new mediums and was right behind Mark after Mark's last stop. So he made up a significant gap on webber twice in the race and was still right on Webbers tailpipe with 13 laps to go. Based on the speed it was Mark, who never had a legitimate shot at the win.

So basically the team prevented them from racing each other as early as lap 26, telling Vettel a bull**** story of 'still time', which almost cost him a position to HAM and when he was back at Webber tail end they told him 'Trollolol. hang back.'
Frankly, how he managed that without swearing at them like a lumberjack is beyond me.

[Malbec]

The team wanted full points and had Vettel obeyed they would have two drivers close in the championship with Alonso a good way behind. Vettel disobeyed and they got full points, a three times champion firmly in the lead for a fourth and Alonso even further behind. It's a no-brainer.


They won in the past with Mark doing his best not to pull for the championship. Team spirit at RB has obviously been optional in the past.



Vettel has so far been fairly 'controllable'. The only reason for him challenging Horners authority is, because the team pulled a stupid prank on him. He wouldn't be a WDC if he accepted stuff like that. The only lose canon in that team has always been Mark, who felt himself entitled to actions he couldn't back up with results.



Very simple. Because he wiped the floor with Mark all weekend, had caught him by lap 26 despite losing about 5 seconds to Mark by his mistimed stop - meaning that he was a damn sight quicker and had the strategic advantage of still having a brand-spanking new set of mediums, which Mark hadn't.

On lap 26 he was told: “Try to look after your tyres, you’re too close in the fast corners.”

He has to stay put while Mark tried to do 'high 41's delta driving' with Lewis closing in on Vettel, who wanted past to get away from HAM.

On lap 28 Vettel became impatient staying behind Webber and said: “Mark is too slow, get him out of the way, he’s too slow”
Reply: “Understood, look after your tyres.” shortly after followed by: “Sebastian be patient, only half race yet.”

So with being told to wait for the right time (to get past presumably), he hung back as the team requested, while Webber put in a few fast laps, probably po'ed by the 'get him out of the way' thing.

All this 'hang back' thing allowed Lewis to sneak past Vettel and being stuck behind the Merc meant he lost 4.2 seconds on Webber. He made up tose 4.2 seconds over just two laps, when he got his shiny new mediums and was right behind Mark after Mark's last stop. So he made up a significant gap on webber twice in the race and was still right on Webbers tailpipe with 13 laps to go. Based on the speed it was Mark, who never had a legitimate shot at the win.

So basically the team prevented them from racing each other as early as lap 26, telling Vettel a bull**** story of 'still time', which almost cost him a position to HAM and when he was back at Webber tail end they told him 'Trollolol. hang back.'
Frankly, how he managed that without swearing at them like a lumberjack is beyond me.

All of your post merely indicates to me that Vettel's situation was rather like Rosberg's, caught behind his teammate but clearly much quicker for most of the race, something I think we all realised if we saw the race. In both cases of course the team told them to hold station, only one complied.

Alas all that shows is that Rosberg is a professional whilst Vettel only has his own interests at heart, not that of the team. It shows the contrast between the behaviour at RBR and Mercedes all the more.

Vettel can disobey team orders as much as he wants the day he brings $200 million a year and is responsible for designing and developing the car as well as running it on race weekends. Until that point he is an employee period and ought to learn to behave as such.

[dj_bytedisaster]

You don't seem to have much experience with running a company. Vettel isn't a secretary, he is probably the second or third important employee after Adrian Newey. There is only a handful of people in the world, who can do what he can do. You don't go ahead and blatantly take the piss out of such an employee, which both Merc and RB have done. They told Vettel to hold back when he could overtake citing 'it's only half the race yet, there's still time'. When the time came, they said 'Gotcha, now we say you can't overtake'. In Nico's case Merc even blatantly lied to him on the team radio. In both cases it is completely obnoxious behaviour on behalf of the employer, especially considering what phase of the season we're in. One accepted it and proved why he isn't a world champion and the over one disregarded it and did what is his job and shows why he is a world champion.
I was an employee myself until 2004 and although not on a scale like this, my boss bull****ted me, too. That's when I told him where to shove it and left. That could happen to RB, too and I don't think Vettel would stay on the unemployment list for too long.
RB are not supposed to treat him like the second coming, but bull****ting him isn't the way to go either.

[Malbec]

You don't seem to have much experience with running a company. Vettel isn't a secretary, he is probably the second or third important employee after Adrian Newey. There is only a handful of people in the world, who can do what he can do. You don't go ahead and blatantly take the piss out of such an employee, which both Merc and RB have done. They told Vettel to hold back when he could overtake citing 'it's only half the race yet, there's still time'. When the time came, they said 'Gotcha, now we say you can't overtake'. In Nico's case Merc even blatantly lied to him on the team radio. In both cases it is completely obnoxious behaviour on behalf of the employer, especially considering what phase of the season we're in. One accepted it and proved why he isn't a world champion and the over one disregarded it and did what is his job and shows why he is a world champion.
I was an employee myself until 2004 and although not on a scale like this, my boss bull****ted me, too. That's when I told him where to shove it and left. That could happen to RB, too and I don't think Vettel would stay on the unemployment list for too long.
RB are not supposed to treat him like the second coming, but bull****ting him isn't the way to go either.

Your logic only applies if Vettel did not have a team orders clause in his contract or that it stated that he had the power to ignore them. I find that highly unlikely.

Otherwise he would be in breach of contract. I'm afraid that for me it doesn't matter if Vettel ignored team orders or did something else such as signing a personal sponsorship deal that was expressly forbidden by RBR. His behaviour was unprofessional.

Of course power lies with the employer and this might seem unfair to you, however ultimately who is paying whom?

You talk about Vettel being special, that would be reflected in the terms of the contract he signed especially with respect to his pay and so forth. Once signed however I would expect a professional to stick to the terms of his contract no?

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't dispute that RBR and Merc are perfectly within their rights to do what they did, but that doesn't make it right from where I am sitting. If one of my employees asked me for a vacation and I declined, citing that I need him for an important project and ask him to wait until completion of it (something which I actually had to do twice) that is something perfectly normal. But if the project then is completed and I say: No, I've changed my mind, you can't go on vacation now either, (something I didn' do) I'd still be perfectly within my rights, after all, I'm the one who pays him, ain't I? But I'd be a pompous and respectless piece of excrement for pulling such a stunt. But that's what RB did. Perfectly within their rights, but still a foul move that Vettel answered with a foul move of himself.

[Malbec]

I don't dispute that RBR and Merc are perfectly within their rights to do what they did, but that doesn't make it right from where I am sitting. If one of my employees asked me for a vacation and I declined, citing that I need him for an important project and ask him to wait until completion of it that is something perfectly normal. But if the project then is completed and I say: No, I've changed my mind, you can't go on vacation now either, I'd still be perfectly within my rights, after all, I'm the one you pays the freiggin' peasant ain't I? But I'd be a pompous and respectless piece of excrement for pulling such a stunt. But that's what RB did. Perfectly within their rights, but still a foul move.

And if your employee went on holiday regardless of your decision and during the project what would that make him? That would be Vettel btw.

Asking a driver to obey team orders is hardly the leftfield outrageous thing that you portray it to be.

[Bagwan]

dj , you need to remember that it's your opinion that they were screwing Vettel and Rosberg .

None of we unwashed know the details .
None of us have any knowledge of whether there were agreements in place , but it certainly looked so .

At least you acknowledged that you would be , at least displeased at having one of your own employees disregard a direct request .

There's a more than subtle difference between what Rosberg did and what Vettel did .
Nico argued his case by showing he could pass if he wanted to , or hopefully , if they asked him to .

But Sebastian just went past , and seemed to do so after Webber had turned down the revs .
Earlier , there was some discussion , but not when he went by , as I recall .

What you did , yourself , is a far more honourable thing .
You left the company when you didn't want to obey .


Employees who only follow orders when they feel like it , are not good employees .

[dj_bytedisaster]

dj , you need to remember that it's your opinion that they were screwing Vettel and Rosberg .

None of we unwashed know the details .
None of us have any knowledge of whether there were agreements in place , but it certainly looked so .

I can't see any driver with a shred of dignity agreeing to a race-fix agreement before the race and even if such 'agreement' existed, the team cheated Vettel of his chance to get in the lead again before the time of the agreed race-fix, since they held him back from lap 26 onwards with the result that Hamilton could close in and leapfrog him in the pits.


There's a more than subtle difference between what Rosberg did and what Vettel did .
Nico argued his case by showing he could pass if he wanted to , or hopefully , if they asked him to .

I don't see it like that. Both teams lied to their drivers and enforced a team order that doesn't make sense this early in the season. If it is really just down to Pirelli's clown tires, I think they have no place in this sport. But especially in the case of Merc, I don't buy that it was purely down to tire-conservation. The most blatant liar was Brawn, when telling Nico that Lewis could go faster if needed, so he should stay behind only then to tell Lewis to go even slower and to max fuel saving. That was a shameless lie and Nico went with that charade. Does look rather spineless than honest to me. As I said, team play goes both ways and both RB and Merc did interpret that particular term in a rather peculiar way.


But Sebastian just went past , and seemed to do so after Webber had turned down the revs .
Earlier , there was some discussion , but not when he went by , as I recall .

The discussion happened on laps 26 and 28, when Vettel was told to leave a gap to Webber instead of trying to overtake 'because you are too close in the fast corners'. When he objected, he was told 'be patient, it's only half race.' That is a blatant lie as in the end it turned out the team hadn't had any intention to let him retake the lead. And why do people still believe the 'turned down engine' myth? Both drivers did their fastest laps on lap 45 and the overtaking happened in lap 46 and only after the pass did Mark's lap times drop. He definitely had not turned down his engine before the fight. The numbers contradict that claim.



Employees who only follow orders when they feel like it , are not good employees .

That's true. But employees who let their employers lie to them without fighting back, will end up rather unhappy.

[Malbec]

I don't see it like that. Both teams lied to their drivers and enforced a team order that doesn't make sense this early in the season.

I'm afraid I'm finding you rather difficult to take you seriously. You're claiming that both teams suddenly sprung a surprise on their drivers by telling them to obey team orders? Really? Are you sure?

Maybe you should abandon F1 and watch something less corrupt. Perhaps WWF would be up your alley? Maybe Greek politics would be cleaner.

Just to clarify you don't believe that any decent F1 driver would agree to team orders?

OK....

Would you mind telling me exactly when you started following the sport?

[Tazio]

Rosberg should have been cleared for the easy pass on The Boss.
Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry

[Valve Bounce]

I have been going past this thread day after day, simply because the lead post was so trite. But as everything else that I come across, the title was irresistible, and I finally could not walk past without posting this comment: " Vettel has won several WDC's! ". He can't be all that bad now, can he? :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

Rosberg should have been cleared for the easy pass on The Boss.
Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry

Both drivers , it seems , agree , but there wasn't enough reward on offer at the time .

[AndyL]

I totally agree. Rosberg should've told Brawn to "go f-ing swivel" and passed Hamilton. After taking a week to think about the incident I see that Vettel made the smart decision by passing Webber. On the day that Alonso had a DNF, Vettel made sure that he got maximum points in order to start a strong WDC campaign.

Vettel may have made the right decision for a guy with 3 championships behind him and who is confident he's more important than his boss. I don't think it would have been such a smart decision for Rosberg.

[AndyL]

I can't see any driver with a shred of dignity agreeing to a race-fix agreement before the race and even if such 'agreement' existed, the team cheated Vettel of his chance to get in the lead again before the time of the agreed race-fix, since they held him back from lap 26 onwards with the result that Hamilton could close in and leapfrog him in the pits.

Perhaps you're misapprehending what the pre-race agreement would have been. It wouldn't have been for driver X to finish ahead of driver Y. That might have been the kind of agreement that Rubens would have had at Ferrari (no shred of dignity presumably), but it's not the agreement that Red Bull and Mercedes were talking about in Malaysia. The agreement would have been simply to hold positions after the last round of pit stops - whatever those positions might have been. It's been a common plan for leading teams in recent years.

[Bagwan]

I can't see any driver with a shred of dignity agreeing to a race-fix agreement before the race and even if such 'agreement' existed, the team cheated Vettel of his chance to get in the lead again before the time of the agreed race-fix, since they held him back from lap 26 onwards with the result that Hamilton could close in and leapfrog him in the pits.



I don't see it like that. Both teams lied to their drivers and enforced a team order that doesn't make sense this early in the season. If it is really just down to Pirelli's clown tires, I think they have no place in this sport. But especially in the case of Merc, I don't buy that it was purely down to tire-conservation. The most blatant liar was Brawn, when telling Nico that Lewis could go faster if needed, so he should stay behind only then to tell Lewis to go even slower and to max fuel saving. That was a shameless lie and Nico went with that charade. Does look rather spineless than honest to me. As I said, team play goes both ways and both RB and Merc did interpret that particular term in a rather peculiar way.



The discussion happened on laps 26 and 28, when Vettel was told to leave a gap to Webber instead of trying to overtake 'because you are too close in the fast corners'. When he objected, he was told 'be patient, it's only half race.' That is a blatant lie as in the end it turned out the team hadn't had any intention to let him retake the lead. And why do people still believe the 'turned down engine' myth? Both drivers did their fastest laps on lap 45 and the overtaking happened in lap 46 and only after the pass did Mark's lap times drop. He definitely had not turned down his engine before the fight. The numbers contradict that claim.



That's true. But employees who let their employers lie to them without fighting back, will end up rather unhappy.

Your term "race-fix" is another way of saying "gentleman's agreement" .

The result of the two agreements is very different at the two teams .

At Merc , the two have some mutual respect , and will work together for the team as a result .
And , I'm sure that it will be balanced by a turn in Nico's favour , down the road .
Nico's "Remember this" , and Lewis saying it should have been Nico on the podium , both back this idea .

Over at RedBull , you have two drivers with little respect for one another , where we are likely to see them race each other harder than they race rival teams .
Expect no respect from either for any team order at RedBull from now on .

[jas123f1]

How good is Vettel?
I would say he is very good - including three time world champion.. :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Perhaps you're misapprehending what the pre-race agreement would have been. It wouldn't have been for driver X to finish ahead of driver Y. That might have been the kind of agreement that Rubens would have had at Ferrari (no shred of dignity presumably), but it's not the agreement that Red Bull and Mercedes were talking about in Malaysia. The agreement would have been simply to hold positions after the last round of pit stops - whatever those positions might have been. It's been a common plan for leading teams in recent years.

If such an agreement (hold position after last stop) is in place, wouldn't that require that both drivers must be free to race for the best possible position to be ahead of their team mate at that point? In that case the team broke that agreement by lap 26, when they ordered Vettel to drop back behind Webber - not only to stay behind, but to leave a gap. This order eventually lead to Lewis leapfrogging him at the next pitstop. What good is such an agreement, if you're supposed to stay behind your team mate barely haöfway into the race? No matter how you look at it, RB played foul. That's not the way to instill motivation into your drivers to obey team orders. Merc at least let them race until a few laps from the end and didn't start to tinker with the running order after 25 laps.

[Bagwan]

If such an agreement (hold position after last stop) is in place, wouldn't that require that both drivers must be free to race for the best possible position to be ahead of their team mate at that point? In that case the team broke that agreement by lap 26, when they ordered Vettel to drop back behind Webber - not only to stay behind, but to leave a gap. This order eventually lead to Lewis leapfrogging him at the next pitstop. What good is such an agreement, if you're supposed to stay behind your team mate barely haöfway into the race? No matter how you look at it, RB played foul. That's not the way to instill motivation into your drivers to obey team orders. Merc at least let them race until a few laps from the end and didn't start to tinker with the running order after 25 laps.

When engineers tell drivers to drop back , it can mean they are worried about the rate of tire wear , and thus , that they aren't lying .
It can mean that the driver ahead is on different strategy , and likely to stop earlier , and thus , that they aren't lying .
It can even be a reminder that the race is a long one , and that they were worried that they might get tangled in a passing situation , and thus , that they aren't lying .
It can just be a cool-down for the driver having a red mist moment , and thus , that they , again , aren't lying.

Those engineers are privy to a heck of a lot more background on this than we'll ever have .
And , a lot of that information is far too sensitive to say on the radio .
That's , I'm pretty sure , one reason why Ross sounded so pained when he had to speak to Nico .

So , you see , a statement like "No matter how you look at it, RB played foul." , doesn't seem quite accurate .

[dj_bytedisaster]

From my perspective, which is of course lacking a lot of data, it still wasn't right. Webber was on an eco-run, doing delta-times., so basically, he wasn't running as fast as possible and they kept Vettel behind for more than 3 laps although he was faster and Hamilton was closing in (he would later pass VET in the pits because of it).
Unless we're missing something extremely big here, kepping Vettel behind made as much sense as a kick-scooter for a one-legged man.

[Bagwan]

What we do know is that keeping Vettel behind at that point , lead them to a one-two near the end , which was what they wanted .
Webber was ahead at near the end , not Hamilton .

[airshifter]

Keeping Vettel behind him would result in the TEAM gaining the same points as if the order changed, resulting in less risk to the TEAM. The word in caps is the one both Vettel and yourself seem to be ignoring. Lacking data we can't be certain, but the order was clear and certain regardless of anything data may or may not show.

It could also have been something not supported by data... maybe they thought Sebastian was a better driver to defend against Lewis and thus keeping him behind gave better chances of a 1-2 finish. There are a number of other situations I can consider that wouldn't be supported by data.

[Firstgear]

dj, if everything you're saying about Red Bull intentionally keeping Vettel back and disadvantaging him is true, you'd have to conclude that they've made Webber the #1 driver.

Is this what you believe, or do you have some other reason to believe that they'd intentionally mess with Vettel?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Is this what you believe, or do you have some other reason to believe that they'd intentionally mess with Vettel?

That's exactly the problem I have with this mess. If I found just one good reason to keep Vettel behind, I wouldn't be so po'ed about it. Not because it is Vettel, but because I think that imposing team orders in just the second race of the year is wrong on so many levels.
With Merc it's pretty much clear: They wanted to stroke Lewis' ego and screwed it, not counting on Lewis' actually having a shred of dignity and not wanting to be gifted his results so obviously.
But did RB somehow decide to give Webber a win for some reason without letting Vettel in on the plan? Did they decide that whoever comes out after the first stop would stay ahead? Or do they just think "f*ck the drivers. As long as we have our 1-2..." ?

These are the facts I gathered from the news and from adding 1+1 and coming up with something other than 11:

a) Vettel had a tire advantage in the form of an extra set of fresh mediums. By imposing the 'hold station' just as he had gotten the fresh new set he saved up, they basically screwed him over.

b) Webber also was marginal on fuel, so why keep Vettel behind?

c) Vettel won two of his three titles by less than 5 points. Asking him to throw away 7 points must have a bloody good reason. If he wins again and by less than seven points, RB look like windowlicking idiots. Although the WCC is what counts for a team, if they publically demonstrate too often that they don't give a flying expletive about whether or not their drivers get a strong start to the WDC, they could have problems attracting top drivers, especially when they don't have a dominant car anymore.

d) Vettel+team made a wrong call with the first pitstop, but he had overcome the deficit by lap 26 and was consistently faster than Mark throughout the race. By keeping him behind and even asking him to leave a gap on lap 26 and lap 28, they allowed Hamilton to undercut Vettel and actually threatened their 1-2 instead of securing it.

There's a bucket load of good reasons why they should have let him pass and not even half as many why they shouldn't. The most 'logical' one I can imagine would be that they wanted to give Mark an easy victory to motivate him to support Seb more in later stages of the WDC, but that isn't very likely, is it?

[airshifter]

If you ignore all the much more logical posts made by many other members, then one of the conspiracy theories will fit just fine! :laugh:

[Mia 01]

Seb is is the youngest WDC, and has three. Lewis has one! Seb will get one moore this year.

[henners88]

Mia ????

[steveaki13]

Mia ????


I think the jist is that Seb is 3 times better than Lewis.

I wouldn't worry about it to much, we all know that Schumi wasn't over twice as good as Senna.

[henners88]

Oh ok I see haha. If he gets a fourth title this year he'll be 4 times better or betterer lol.

I'd love to be able to view the sport through such simple terms. Thanks for the translation Steve ;)

[steveaki13]

That Makes Schumi a 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 times better than Badoer. :eek:

[TheFamousEccles]

Oh My Dog! This SV passing MW thing is old. Rationalise it however you want, the answer is "Multi 21".

And yes, SV is an excellent driver and a deserving WDC x3, but lets just move on, everyone please?

[zako85]

Oh My Dog! This SV passing MW thing is old. Rationalise it however you want, the answer is "Multi 21".

And yes, SV is an excellent driver and a deserving WDC x3, but lets just move on, everyone please?


Unfortunately, we can't move on. It will be another week until the next race.

I don't think there is a lot in it between those three but Red Fluff have a powerful range up however. Webber is energetic but unreliable and for Seb you don't win 3 WDCs being poor.. . . . . . . .

[racerdude]

"The Red Bull boys were told to hold their positions to finish out the race. Vettel wasn’t pleased as he claimed Webber was going too slow and charged to overtake Webber. The two battled it out in the 46th lap. Despite team radio commands telling him to stand down, Vettel took first place at the checkered flag." c/o f1deals.com
I think he is determined and would cease every chance he gets.

[jens]

A lot of the talk here (about team orders) has been vastly off-topic and better for a split discussion. That is all I can say.

[driveace]

Well he says he has NO regrets about winning last time out ,SO lets see if Webber knocks him off in China .All is fair in racing !!!

[truefan72]

Vettel is delusional
Formula 1 - Defiant Vettel: 'I was faster, I passed him, I won' - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-webber-deserve-win-says-vettel-105813123.html)

this kind of attitude probably turns of everyone at the team, except for Marko.
I Think he might be already singed with Ferrari.
He's got his 3 titles now he can go drive for them.
There is no other way to explain his comments
Even Schumi in his dark days was not this blatant, at least he had some diplomacy in his interviews and comments

[CNR]

Red Bull F1 driver battle intensifies (http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8641150)
Sebastian Vettel intensified his fight with Red Bull teammate Mark Webber on Tuesday, saying the Australian hurt the team in the past so he did not deserve consideration in the Malaysian team orders affair.
Vettel revealed at the Chinese Grand Prix that his decision to ignore team orders and pass Webber in the closing stages of the Malaysian race was "indirectly" related to past incidents when he felt Webber went against the best interests of the Formula One team.
"There was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't," Vettel said.
Asked if that was why he ignored the team orders, Vettel replied: "Indirectly so."

[kfzmeister]

I'm seriously wondering whether Seb is ruining his chances of another title. I mean he's definitely not going to get assistance from Webber, but now he's given Mark a reason to piss on his parade (attempt to win another title).
This could get really good for Alonso. I'm seriously hoping that this year is his year. Destruct away, Mr Vettel.

[Koz]

I'm afraid I'm finding you rather difficult to take you seriously. You're claiming that both teams suddenly sprung a surprise on their drivers by telling them to obey team orders? Really? Are you sure?



Nico Rosberg: Mercedes team orders saga over - Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130411/F1/130419973)

Rosberg said it wasn't discussed before hand.

Clearly if RBR used a code word, then they had obviously discussed ti prior to the race.

[Koz]

I'm seriously wondering whether Seb is ruining his chances of another title. I mean he's definitely not going to get assistance from Webber, but now he's given Mark a reason to piss on his parade (attempt to win another title).
This could get really good for Alonso. I'm seriously hoping that this year is his year. Destruct away, Mr Vettel.

I don't recall the last time Webber actually helped Vettel, so could you please remind me?

I do remember Brazil last year, and the year before that though, when the team helped Mark up to a win. His only win of the season, compared to Vettel's 11...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Clearly if RBR used a code word, then they had obviously discussed ti prior to the race.

The "Multi12" and "Multi21" codes had been in use way before Malaysia.

[henners88]

The "Multi12" and "Multi21" codes had been in use way before Malaysia.

Indeed and the way Webber said it to Seb post race when they were getting their refreshments, its clear there is no way he wouldn't have misunderstood it. As fans we've heard messages containing the words 'multi' in the past but in this case an issue has been made and we now understand what they mean.

Multi 21 = Cars 2 and 1 to hold position.

Multi 12 = Cars 1 and 2 to hold position.

I think this will be the last time this particular code will be used for obvious reasons.

[Koz]

Yep.
To quote Horner.

“Multi-21 means car two ahead of car one. Multi-12 means car one ahead of car two,” explained Horner. “It’s not complicated. It’s not that difficult to translate, but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages. I think we’re going to give up on that code. We need to probably try something else.

[henners88]

Yeah like: 'Sebastian do not overtake Mark, that is an order from your employer!!!' :p

[steveaki13]

Vettel is delusional
Formula 1 - Defiant Vettel: 'I was faster, I passed him, I won' - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-webber-deserve-win-says-vettel-105813123.html)

this kind of attitude probably turns of everyone at the team, except for Marko.
I Think he might be already singed with Ferrari.
He's got his 3 titles now he can go drive for them.
There is no other way to explain his comments
Even Schumi in his dark days was not this blatant, at least he had some diplomacy in his interviews and comments

I dont see him as delusional. I see it as knowing exactly what he wants and going to get it, whether his team or fans like it.

I think it just shows how he cares about nothing other than winning his 4th title.


I'm seriously wondering whether Seb is ruining his chances of another title. I mean he's definitely not going to get assistance from Webber, but now he's given Mark a reason to piss on his parade (attempt to win another title).
This could get really good for Alonso. I'm seriously hoping that this year is his year. Destruct away, Mr Vettel.

Hardly ruining his title chances. Webber never gets close enough to Seb much of the season to get in his way. I would think Seb will be racing at the front most of the season, with Mark doing his usual up down season.


Yeah like: 'Sebastian do not overtake Mark, that is an order from your employer!!!' :p

And he'll reply. "Sod that dont you know who I am"

I don't think there is a lot in it between those three but Red Fluff have a powerful range up however. Webber is energetic but unreliable and for Seb you don't win 3 WDCs being poor.. . . . . . . .

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[webberf1]

massa has never been the same since coming back from his accident. it's not relevant what massa is doing.

i don't know if you've paid attention but all the top drivers have passed with efficiency in the last two years. alonso's a mediocre qualifier, the ferrari is great off the line, and it had solid race pace last year after round 4 despite alonso subtly blaming the car every chance he got, and he had car reliability which is so important in a championship that heavily rewards guys that can regularly bring it home 3rd or 4th. all these things skew alonso's achievements. there's no doubt he's the third best driver on the grid, but he's not in the league of vettel and hamilton.
Theres no doubt Vettel is good at passing, traffic and wheel to wheel racing, but as good as Alonso? Simply no. Seb has on a number of occasions either lost concentration, lost his cool, or cracked under pressure - leading to accidents or very near misses. Think of occasions like Seb slamming into Webber under the safety car in Fuji, or crashing trying to pass webber and button in turkey and spa respectively. What about cracking under pressure from Button in Canada? That wasn't even half as much pressure as Alonso faced from Schumacher for more laps in Imola a number of years back. What about being the luckiest mother****er on earth not to have ended his race and championship hopes in that crash in brazil last year? Or making contact again with another driver storming back through (he also did that in another race, cant remember which one, late last year where he had to start from the back, and then also almost hit the wall under a safety car).

How often can you think of Alonso making those kind of mistakes? Very rarely. Malaysia turn 2 was highly uncharacteristic and even then Alonso was extremely unlucky to get the damage he did from such light contact (compare that to how hard Kimi slammed into Perez's ass and no wing change needed). Alonso is cooler, more quick thinking, uses better microtactics, better under pressure, and makes it look a lot easier than Vettel does. As the seasoned experts are saying: Alonso #1.

[faster69]

Theres no doubt Vettel is good at passing, traffic and wheel to wheel racing, but as good as Alonso? Simply no. Seb has on a number of occasions either lost concentration, lost his cool, or cracked under pressure - leading to accidents or very near misses. Think of occasions like Seb slamming into Webber under the safety car in Fuji, or crashing trying to pass webber and button in turkey and spa respectively. What about cracking under pressure from Button in Canada? That wasn't even half as much pressure as Alonso faced from Schumacher for more laps in Imola a number of years back. What about being the luckiest mother****er on earth not to have ended his race and championship hopes in that crash in brazil last year? Or making contact again with another driver storming back through (he also did that in another race, cant remember which one, late last year where he had to start from the back, and then also almost hit the wall under a safety car).

How often can you think of Alonso making those kind of mistakes? Very rarely. Malaysia turn 2 was highly uncharacteristic and even then Alonso was extremely unlucky to get the damage he did from such light contact (compare that to how hard Kimi slammed into Perez's ass and no wing change needed). Alonso is cooler, more quick thinking, uses better microtactics, better under pressure, and makes it look a lot easier than Vettel does. As the seasoned experts are saying: Alonso #1.

alonso's in 13th season of f1. vettel's in his 6th full season. hitting webber happened in probably his 5th ever race. touching webber in 2010 (vettel's third season) was no less stupid than alonso having no awareness and drifting into kimi in japan last year. how about alonso hitting vettel three weeks ago then being silly enough to stay out. yeah, he's really showing his wealth of experience there... :rolleyes:

what about alonso's stupid mistake in the lead canada 2005, how about japan 2007 which cost him the championship in the end, italy 2004.

vettel went to the back of the field last year in brazil and with everything to lose still gets it home in 6th in the wet and with a compromised car. if alonso did that people fall over themselves calling it the greatest drive of all time. no-one is better under pressure. alonso under pressure we know how that goes (last race of 2010).

vettel's more aggressive than alonso too, but you have to say it has worked for him . nearly as many wins in half the race, already twice as many poles. he gets it done.

[airshifter]

Btw, for everyone's viewing pleasure, vid of Fernando Alonso with absolutely shot rear tyres defending off the quick finishing Schumacher (who had caught him at over 2sec per lap) in Imola 2005: Fernando alonso VS Michael Schumacher Imola 2005 onboard - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK2uV9ApLts)

I will probably watch it later, but really don't need to as those laps are planted in my mind long term.

I would say that both when under intense pressure and when he's the one applying the pressure, Alonso really shines. His mental strength in such circumstances is one of his greatest assets as a racer IMO. Overall I think there are actually former and current day racers that equal him in straight driving ability, but they lack the mental attitude that Fernando has.

IMO Alonso>Seb

If placed on the same team I think Alonso would put Seb into mental break down mode.

[kfzmeister]

And here's Vettel's ability to stay calm and collected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTAtRTQBr4o