Donkey of Malaysia

[donKey jote]

Alonsooooooo :mad:

[Dave B]

49 laps still to run, but yet Alonso's going to take some beating.

Force India pit strategy comes close...

[Dave B]

Hamilton going to the wrong garage!

[Tazio]

And Hamilton pulls into|McLaren pit :laugh:

[henners88]

You can at least go some way to understand the mistake IMO.

[CNR]

what a joke lewis

[pino]

Hamilton Lol

[henners88]

I would never have done that from my armchair lol

[donKey jote]

Hamilton going to the wrong garage!

that would be more for the clown/comic moment of the race :laugh:

[Rollo]

The wheel man on Jensen's front right wheel.

Oh dear... basically the hopes of an assured 5th place, dashed like so many broken pieces of pottery.

[CNR]

Mercedes and vettle

[N4D13]

I think Force India need to take this one for screwing (pun unintended) both drivers' races. Honourable mentions to Maldonado for binning it for the second time in as many races and, obviously, Alonso, for finding out the hard way that physics is a b****.

[donKey jote]

donkey to nico for accepting team orders and to seb for not :laugh:

[truefan72]

lots of donkeys today
including my Man Hamilton :(

[AndyL]

A lot of competition for donkey of the race today! Ferrari not pitting Alonso with the broken wing; Force India going (wheel) nuts; Maldonado throwing it at the scenery; Kimi's various excursions ultimately leading to a broken wing; McLaren throwing away a competitive top 5 finish that would have seemed impossible a week ago; and, depending on your views on team orders, either Vettel disobeying them or Rosberg rolling over.

[henners88]

Mercedes over all, fuel management issues and communication it seems. Alonso and Ferrari in the mix too.

[A FONDO]

The indian crew... what a bunch of ****ers, they had the fourth fastest car.

MALdonado was a headless fly again

[N4D13]

As for Alonso's wing, I think not pitting him was a reasonable decision. He was managing to hold onto second place with a broken wing and he only needed to hang in there for two or three laps at most before switching to slicks. Heidfeld showed in 2009 what can be done with a broken front wing and it wasn't all that bad. So, hey, in the end it turned out wrong, but I think it was the right choice. Pitting at that time would totally have destroyed his race.

[A FONDO]

Oh, how could I forgot Bieber's cry over the radio at the first half of the race "get him (Mark) out of my way" :arrows:

[Tazio]

Probably a shorter list of non-donkeys :angel:

[rjbetty]

Soooo many to choose from:


Number 1 I'd give to Sebastian Vettel for his stroppy attitude and failure to use KERS, DRS, MARKO etc.
Kimi for being a bit underwhelming now his car isn't the best, and being beaten by Grosjean.
Jenson Button - I hear he was the one who drove off before the wheel was properly fixed - is this right? If not, whoever is responsible.
Force India, who looked good for a strongish result.
Esteban Gutierrez, for dropping from 10th to 12th in the final laps even though Ricciardo and Button pulled out.
Yup, Maldonado for losing his front wing, then binning it again while Bottas brings it home, oh so close to a point.
Ricciardo for being outraced by Vergne once again.
McLaren for pitting Sergio Perez with 2 (count 'em) laps to go, thus affecting my FGP!!!
Definitely Mercedes who I think may have actually risked more by keeping Rosberg behind a Hamilton who was slow due to an extreme fuel and tyre situation. It seemed unfair to Nico.

[ShiftingGears]

Maldonado, definitely. Raikkonen was very underwhelming as well. Webber shouldn't have said what he said, either. Even though it was true.

And Vettel for being such a child.

[Garry Walker]

"the child". He bitches like a little baby and backstabs his teammate.

[truefan72]

ok, my donkey's
1. Vettel - and it will be much discussed here
2. Alonso -come into the pits son!
3. Force India pit stuff - destroyed both drivers race
4. Hamilton/Mercedes - into the wrong box, car running out of fuel, team orders...which will be much discussed here
5. Maldonado - for being Maldonado
6. Mclaren pit mistakes, yet again
7. Horner - for trying to share the blame with his "both drivers" nonsense
8. Vettel again -for his nonsense comments durng the race, basically insulting his teammate

[Garry Walker]

ok, my donkey's
1. Vettel - and it will be much discussed here
2. Alonso -come into the pits son!
3. Force India pit stuff - destroyed both drivers race
4. Hamilton/Mercedes - into the wrong box, car running out of fuel, team orders...which will be much discussed here
5. Maldonado - for being Maldonado
6. Mclaren pit mistakes, yet again
7. Horner - for trying to share the blame with his "both drivers" nonsense
8. Vettel again -for his nonsense comments durng the race, basically insulting his teammate

Do you know what caused Hamitlon's fuel problems?

[henners88]

Do you know what caused Hamitlon's fuel problems?
Hamilton going at it too hard in the middle stint Garry.

[Garry Walker]

Hamilton going at it too hard in the middle stint Garry.

Ok. Then a bit worrying for him is that Rosberg was faster than him anyway in the middle stint.

[henners88]

Ok. Then a bit worrying for him is that Rosberg was faster than him anyway in the middle stint.
Possibly yeah. It's great from a fans perspective to see a team mate who can challenge and we all know Lewis has driven his best in the past when being pushed. I think it's a good combination as long as it can be controlled on a personality basis. Nico is showing what I have always thought about him, he's a very good driver looking for that break.

[Ari]

Vettel then Alonso

[steveaki13]

Right then this is one Donkey Race.

-Alonso - Silly contact and crash
-Ferrari - Not instructing Alonso abot damage.
-Massa - 5th and way off the pace of the 2nd on the grid.
-Toro Rosso - Releasing the car into the unsuspecting Caterhams path.
-Maldonado - Another incident at another Race.
-Force India - Whatever the problem was, to waste to cars that are fast. Is bonkers.
-Mercedes - Not managing fuel properly, silly teamorders and arguing on the Radio.
-Hamilton - Pulling into Mclarens garage.
-Mclaren Crew (Wheel Man)- Not getting that wheel on. And Lollipop man for lifting the lollipop to early.
- Seb ignoring team orders and endangering a 1-2.
-Seb for issuing an apology and not meaning it. (He was desperate to clear Mark earlier and is happy to take the 25 points.
-Kimi (Moaning at Hulkenberg defending hard but fair.

*Anyone else?

[truefan72]

webber and Vettel speaking to the press

Vettel continues to say he wasn't aware of it and that he respects Webber
things will get worse when Webber hears his race radio comments about him

Vettel needs to man up, rather than continue to profess ignorance

[rjbetty]

Now I hear about that non-apology, making what he did even worse, Seb is definitely top of the queue.

(Also wondering how sincere Hamilton's long face is considering how aware he is of the public's perception)

[Knock-on]

Ferrari for not pitting Alonso but the second incident which put him out was caused by a double movement across his nose from Webber IIRC.

Vettel for being a <insert word here>

[pino]

In all honesty Vettel should win this award, for his attitude both in the race and after the race. Can't imagine how the forum would turn out if was Alonso who did it...

[truefan72]

Now I hear about that non-apology, making what he did even worse, Seb is definitely top of the queue.

(Also wondering how sincere Hamilton's long face is considering how aware he is of the public's perception)

you can question his sincerity if you want, but hamilton has always been one to show this kind of attitude, and nothing in his past has shown him to be any different.
His comments were made fresh and raw, but if you think he is that cold and diabolical then I guess nothing will change your opinion of him.

[DexDexter]

Donkeys of the race: Red Bull for thinking team orders would actually prevent the guys from racing, Mercedes for holding Nico back at the second race of the season for a third place finish.

[steveaki13]

In all honesty Vettel should win this award, for his attitude both in the race and after the race. Can't imagine how the forum would turn out if was Alonso who did it...

Same if it was Hamilton. You would have to close most threads

[truefan72]

turns out Mercedes was far too aggressive in their fueling of the Hamilton car and not that Hamilton was out driving his car. He said that they were on fuel conservation very early on in the race
that too me only increase the donkey factor for Mercedes

[steveaki13]

Apparently it got quite heated at the press conference between Seb & Mark

[Garry Walker]

turns out Mercedes was far too aggressive in their fueling of the Hamilton car and not that Hamilton was out driving his car. He said that they were on fuel conservation very early on in the race
that too me only increase the donkey factor for Mercedes

So did they give him less fuel than they gave Rosberg? That would be quite weird, why would they do that?

[Dave B]

Donkey of the race is Horner for not being able to control his driver. Compare Ross Brawn's clear, concise instructions to Rosberg with Horner's "this is silly". Rosberg knew where he stood and why he stood there; Vettel just ignored Horner and as predicted was protected afterwards.

Alonso & Ferrari come close for losing his wing in a run-of-the-mill first lap contact but then not pitting for a replacement - it's unclear who's decision that was.

Hamilton gets an honourable mention for the wrong box, but drove a superb race otherwise; and Force India in general for their pitstops.

[truefan72]

So did they give him less fuel than they gave Rosberg? That would be quite weird, why would they do that?

trying to be too aggressive, counting on more wet laps, who knows, its a blunder regardless
but fair play to Nico he was the faster car today...at the end

[Garry Walker]

Donkey of the race is Horner for not being able to control his driver. Compare Ross Brawn's clear, concise instructions to Rosberg with Horner's "this is silly". Rosberg knew where he stood and why he stood there; Vettel just ignored Horner and as predicted was protected afterwards.
.

Except that is the reality when your driver is spoilt like he is. He was dirty back in Turkey and what happened? His team just attacked Webber and protected him. The guy thinks he can get away with everything and has shown that kind of mentality many times. RB has spoilt him like no other driver ever before has been spoilt and that is the reward.

[jens]

Donkey of the race is Horner for not being able to control his driver. Compare Ross Brawn's clear, concise instructions to Rosberg with Horner's "this is silly". Rosberg knew where he stood and why he stood there; Vettel just ignored Horner and as predicted was protected afterwards.


Can't help but feel that this is a pretty decent evaluation of the situation.

But it gets more complicated, when we are comparing Vettel and Rosberg, and you see that Horner's job was more difficult. Why?

Vettel knows that he can go and win and the team can't do anything about him, because he is their main man for the championship anyway. Horner was in a pretty uncomfortable situation to be honest. He can hardly sack Vettel to put it this way. It is not like forcing your #2 driver to yield and say that "if you don't listen, we can sack you and find another #2, no probs".

It comes down to how important each person to a team is. The stakes are higher in talking to Vettel than talking to Rosberg. The bigger the star is, the less you can "force" him to do something.

In the end the way it was pretty logical in how the results panned out. Rosberg has more to lose by having an intra-team conflict, so he decided to yield and keep team harmony - which was more important at that point than having a "mere" 3rd place. Vettel doesn't have anything to lose with the exception of some PR-problems. But he sure wanted a win and more points compared to whoever is going to battle with him for the WDC. Although I am sure Vettel is now more aware of the situation too, because he can't do the same thing for the second time and again say "sorry".

[The Black Knight]

Ferrari for not calling Alonso into the pits. Hamilton for driving into the McLaren garage LOL!

[zako85]

To be honest, I really don't understand the order that RBR gave to its drivers. Why hold position? Let's get serious. The logical order should have been to let Vettel through. It's not like we had here Prost vs Senna racing. Does anyone still have a doubt that Vettel is faster than Webber? Does Horner still toy with the idea of giving Webber a fair shot? Look, at the end of year the battle for the championship most likely again will be down to Alonso vs Vettel, and Vettel sure will appreciate the extra points he had earned at the beginning of year.

[zako85]

The donkeys were two:

Alonso and Force India (rest of team, not drivers).

[keysersoze]

It was quite the donkey parade today! I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[pino]

The donkeys were two:

Alonso and Force India (rest of team, not drivers).

So for you and (many others in here) Fernando deserves the award, while Vettel did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be mentioned :crazy:

[wedge]

Donkey of the race is Horner for not being able to control his driver. Compare Ross Brawn's clear, concise instructions to Rosberg with Horner's "this is silly". Rosberg knew where he stood and why he stood there; Vettel just ignored Horner and as predicted was protected afterwards.

And just how do you control your driver?

Carlos Reutimann was contracted number 2 at Williams and still broke team orders.

[markabilly]

And just how do you control your driver?

Carlos Reutimann was contracted number 2 at Williams and still broke team orders.

well, duh??? not surprising, is it? :s mokin:

I think that fair is fair, and webber should have won.

OTOH, while not appearing to be as dangerous as it used to be, it is still dangerous out there. You take a driver who puts it all on the line, and got to where he is by not backing off but going for it, risking his life for glory and victory. Do you think that he is going to be peeing in his panties merely from the fear of some relatively minor consequences from ignoring some team order from someone in sitting in an armchair???

He might obey, just as a tiger does in a circus, but it ain't natural

[janneppi]

And just how do you control your driver?

Carlos Reutimann was contracted number 2 at Williams and still broke team orders.
Put Heikki in Vettel's car for the next race and the 3 time WDC might get the point of team orders :D

[Dave B]

And just how do you control your driver?

I don't know. Ask Ross Brawn, he seemed to manage just fine with Nico Rosberg today, and didn't have much of a problem with Schumacher's team mates down the years. Rightly or wrongly, Nico respected his clear concise explanation, whereas Horner expected Vettel to understand "this is silly". It seems to be a fundamental difference in their management styles, but yes the driver has to be a party to that - Sebastian clearly doesn't want to play.

[Langdale Forest]

There are many donkeys, Alonso for not pitting to change the front wing, Hamilton for forgetting what team he drives for, and Force India, McLaren, and Toro Rosso for pit lane failures.

[DexDexter]

I don't know. Ask Ross Brawn, he seemed to manage just fine with Nico Rosberg today, and didn't have much of a problem with Schumacher's team mates down the years. Rightly or wrongly, Nico respected his clear concise explanation, whereas Horner expected Vettel to understand "this is silly". It seems to be a fundamental difference in their management styles, but yes the driver has to be a party to that - Sebastian clearly doesn't want to play.

Let's be honest, Horner cannot control Vettel because Vettel doesn't answer to him. I'm even willing to bet that if Seb got annoyed enough (of Horner), he could have him fired. It's Marko and Mateschitz who call the shots and Vettel's their protege.

[gloomyDAY]

Vettel - Dwight Howard's thoughts... (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GYJhoA7B_hI/UT94R_sX7XI/AAAAAAAALEg/jZcxU0xIWTo/s1600/Dwight-Howard.gif)

Alonso - :laugh:

Kimi - Struggled the whole race.

Perez - Nowhere near Button all weekend.

Maldonado - Doesn't want to be at Williams, and acting like it.

Red Bull - Lack of control of Vettel.

McLaren - Screwed Button.

Force India - A wheel nut caused 2 retirements. Really?!

[zako85]

So for you and (many others in here) Fernando deserves the award, while Vettel did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be mentioned :crazy:

Yes. Team orders are the team's internal issue IMO. If the driver doesn't follow, they'll deal with it.

[henners88]

Let's be honest, Horner cannot control Vettel because Vettel doesn't answer to him. I'm even willing to bet that if Seb got annoyed enough (of Horner), he could have him fired. It's Marko and Mateschitz who call the shots and Vettel's their protege.

I don't personally think Vettel is big enough within Red Bull to get the team principle fired. There's a lack of respect but Marko and Mateschitz have full faith in Horner. Christian is not the one rocking the apple cart after all.

[ioan]

I don't know. Ask Ross Brawn, he seemed to manage just fine with Nico Rosberg today, ...

We'll see about this one.
From what has been reported both Lauda and Wolf already distanced themselves from what Ross did and explained that Mercedes is not seeing this approach as a healthy one. IMO Brawn will be out of Mercedes F1 soon for making too many wrong calls, today's being only one of many.

[wedge]

I don't know. Ask Ross Brawn, he seemed to manage just fine with Nico Rosberg today, and didn't have much of a problem with Schumacher's team mates down the years. Rightly or wrongly, Nico respected his clear concise explanation, whereas Horner expected Vettel to understand "this is silly". It seems to be a fundamental difference in their management styles, but yes the driver has to be a party to that - Sebastian clearly doesn't want to play.

I don't think its to do with management styles at all.

If a driver wants to break team orders they will do it regardless.

Senna broke/reinterpreted a gentleman's agreement at the 1989 San Marino GP.

Alonso went as far as blackmailing his own boss in 2007.

As with Senna, Seb knows he will get protection from the team.

Why Nico complied only he knows though he did say "i will remember this one". To be continued?

[markabilly]

We'll see about this one.
From what has been reported both Lauda and Wolf already distanced themselves from what Ross did and explained that Mercedes is not seeing this approach as a healthy one. IMO Brawn will be out of Mercedes F1 soon for making too many wrong calls, today's being only one of many.

Wrong or right calls, it may not really matter, since I think they are only looking for an excuse to have more control and power over the team, and the next step is to be rid of brawn

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wrong or right calls, it may not really matter, since I think they are only looking for an excuse to have more control and power over the team, and the next step is to be rid of brawn

They already have full power over the team. If Nicki says "go", Brawn is out immediately. They don't need to make up excuses. However, Brawns call today may actually make Lauda say "go" rather soon. Ross certainly isn't the genius he once was...

[ioan]

They already have full power over the team. If Nicki says "go", Brawn is out immediately. They don't need to make up excuses. However, Brawns call today may actually make Lauda say "go" rather soon. Ross certainly isn't the genius he once was...

Actually Brawn's dealings since he left Ferrari, for good reason, made me wonder if indeed he was the mastermind in the team back in the day. Nowadays it doesn't look like that anymore.

[kfzmeister]

Seb for brake checking Alonso in turn 2. What a ruthless little prick (as seen in the closing laps)

[wmcot]

Has to be Vettel, especially for his explanation, "I didn't ignore it on purpose, but I messed up in that situation and obviously took the lead..."

This has to be the first and only "accidental" pass that I have ever seen. (Also nice to have your teammate pi**ed off with you for the rest of the year.)

[Robinho]

Where to start!

Alonso/Ferrari for not coming in with a broken wing - whilst he took himself out, that could very well have had much more severe consequences, given how close the field was still at that time and the point at which the acident took place.

Vettel for ignoring the instruction. Red Bull and Merc for feeling the need to make those calls.

Force India for some of the worst pit crew action, McLaren just behind for the same reason.

whichever team it was (STR?) for releasing their car straight into a Caterham in a crowded pitlane.

arguably Hamilton for feeling so sorry for Nico, but not sorry enough to take it into his own hands and let him though, knowing he couldn't have kept him behind on pace alone.

Vettel again for "get Mark out of the way, he's too slow" whilst not being able to pass him, only for Mark to pull a couple of seconds gap over the next few laps.

[Storm]

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton for that pit to McLaren (which I missed!) and also because the great one who is supposedly very fair and brought up on McLaren traditions of racing had to save his position via team orders.

[henners88]

Hamilton for that pit to McLaren (which I missed!) and also because the great one who is supposedly very fair and brought up on McLaren traditions of racing had to save his position via team orders.
In fairness to Hamilton he did credit Nico on the podium and said he himself didn't deserve to be stood there. Whether Lewis agrees with team orders or not, he works for the team and they ultimately make the calls. No driver is bigger than the team whether that's Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel. I'm not a fan of team orders and have been vocal on that in the past. Nico deserved to be higher than he was and this was a weekend where Lewis was out driven by his team mate IMO. That being said, the teams call the shots and the drivers have to obey.

[henners88]

We'll see about this one.
From what has been reported both Lauda and Wolf already distanced themselves from what Ross did and explained that Mercedes is not seeing this approach as a healthy one. IMO Brawn will be out of Mercedes F1 soon for making too many wrong calls, today's being only one of many.
Hmmm Wolf was anything but distanced when interviewed by both Sky and the BBC. He fully backed up the decision and justified what professionals both drivers were. Lauda ranted on German TV which was not only unprofessional but dangerous, especially if he wants to work past his probation period. I think if anybody is going to be pushed out of Mercedes in the near future it'll be the ones who don't stay loyal to the team. I didn't agree with the decision myself, but hey.

[henners88]

Actually Brawn's dealings since he left Ferrari, for good reason, made me wonder if indeed he was the mastermind in the team back in the day. Nowadays it doesn't look like that anymore.
Many of the advantages Ferrari had back in the day are no longer at Brawn's disposal ioan. Success is not the work of one man and in this case they haven't got tyre companies showing preference, a governing body covering their back, and unlimited testing and expense to push a car to the very front of the grid. Brawn may be a loathsome character, but he's a very clever man and none of that intuition has gone IMO.

[airshifter]

So many donkeys... so little time. Donkeys, donkeys everywhere!

[AndyL]

Hmmm Wolf was anything but distanced when interviewed by both Sky and the BBC. He fully backed up the decision and justified what professionals both drivers were. Lauda ranted on German TV which was not only unprofessional but dangerous, especially if he wants to work past his probation period. I think if anybody is going to be pushed out of Mercedes in the near future it'll be the ones who don't stay loyal to the team. I didn't agree with the decision myself, but hey.

Can't say I'm very surprised to hear that Lauda has already started undermining the management of the team.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Can't say I'm very surprised to hear that Lauda has already started undermining the management of the team.

I don't think it was to undermine the management. The statements he made - saying that it was a wrong call - were made in his capacity as a contracted expert commentating for RTL. One has to make the distinction of what he says as a Mercedes man and what as a TV expert.

[henners88]

I don't think it was to undermine the management. The statements he made - saying that it was a wrong call - were made in his capacity as a contracted expert commentating for RTL. One has to make the distinction of what he says as a Mercedes man and what as a TV expert.
I don't think its a case of the viewer needing to make the distinction between his two roles. I think its a conflict of interest for any employee to be employed by a company and then have the freedom to criticise them in public without completely undermining their role. Opinions on a matter that are so close to home should be discussed in private before announcing them on national TV IMO.

If someone like myself were to write a criticism of my employer on Facebook for instance, I couldn't defend myself by suggesting they make the distinction between me the Design Engineer at work and me the civilian who has a freedom of speech to make public condemnations. It doesn't really work like that and someone in Lauda's position is more than aware of that I would hope.

[The Black Knight]

I don't think its a case of the viewer needing to make the distinction between his two roles. I think its a conflict of interest for any employee to be employed by a company and then have the freedom to criticise them in public without completely undermining their role. Opinions on a matter that are so close to home should be discussed in private before announcing them on national TV IMO.

If someone like myself were to write a criticism of my employer on Facebook for instance, I couldn't defend myself by suggesting they make the distinction between me the Design Engineer at work and me the civilian who has a freedom of speech to make public condemnations. It doesn't really work like that and someone in Lauda's position is more than aware of that I would hope.

Absolutely.

It reminds me of a someone a girl I know used to work with. This lady was stupid enough to accept a friendship request from her boss on Facebook. A few months later she called in sick to work on Friday , used to work weekend shifts, and throughout the weekend when she was supposed to be working she was being tagged in various locations on Facebook and her photos were being posted in various different pubs etc. Hardly a great cover. When she arrived back into work and her boss said it to her, she got fierce indignant over an invasion of privacy, saying that "This is a complete invasion of work on my personal space" even though she was the thick fool that decided to accept her boss's friendship request to begin with. This is more a case of "How stupid are you?" than her right to privacy. She didn't work there much longer to say the least :)

You can't entirely separate the private person from the employee. To say you can is not living in the real world as they are interlinked.

[DexDexter]

Can't say I'm very surprised to hear that Lauda has already started undermining the management of the team.

I can't for the life of me understand why the hired Lauda of all people. The guy cannot keep his mouth shut and will not do the organisation anything good. Next they're going to hire Eddie Jordan.

[Malbec]

Vettel just ignored Horner and as predicted was protected afterwards.

Is this really the case?

We know no action was taken by the team at Sepang, but we also could tell clearly that Vettel's protector Helmut Marko was not happy at all with what happened.

What Vettel did was challenge the team's authority very clearly. By listening to very precise instructions and ignoring them he openly humiliated the team.

Previously the team merely looked away whilst Vettel humiliated Webber but this time its the team's authority that is being questioned directly. RBR will have to make it clear to their German driver that he is exactly that, merely a driver. They will also have to make it clear to the outside world that the tail does not wag the dog at RBR and that they have Vettel under control. Anything else brings the quality of management at several different levels at RBR into question openly.

It didn't help RBR at all that several seconds behind Webber Mercedes were also executing team orders in a very professional manner however unhappy Rosberg was at the time.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm just trying to imagine Ferrari telling Fernando: "Seb is out, just gift those 7 extra points to Felipe". Yeah, right. RB's authority was in tatters when they came up with that ridiculous call. Vettel merely drove the point home by making them look like clowns, as did Ross Brawn by keeping Nico behind for no good reason. If nothing else, yesterdays race showed what a friggin' shambles F1 has become. Race fixing in the second GP. If I wanted to see rigged races, I could just as well watch NASCRAP.

[BDunnell]

I don't think its a case of the viewer needing to make the distinction between his two roles. I think its a conflict of interest for any employee to be employed by a company and then have the freedom to criticise them in public without completely undermining their role. Opinions on a matter that are so close to home should be discussed in private before announcing them on national TV IMO.

If someone like myself were to write a criticism of my employer on Facebook for instance, I couldn't defend myself by suggesting they make the distinction between me the Design Engineer at work and me the civilian who has a freedom of speech to make public condemnations. It doesn't really work like that and someone in Lauda's position is more than aware of that I would hope.

Yes, you're absolutely right. It's a clear conflict of interests (one far beyond Martin Brundle having been a driver manager and commentator simultaneously) and Lauda really should give up one position or the other.

[BDunnell]

We know no action was taken by the team at Sepang, but we also could tell clearly that Vettel's protector Helmut Marko was not happy at all with what happened.

Given that this was the case, one imagines Dietrich Mateschitz, Webber's prime supporter within the team, being absolutely livid.

[Tazio]

From a professional POV I think Lauda should make a choice which job he wants most as in this case they clearly conflict. However I also think he was dead on, because IMHO Barbie could and should have made the easy pass in that situation.

[Shifter]

From a number of contenders, I think I have to give it to Alonso/Alonso's team for not pitting the car in. As soon as Alonso bypassed the pits, I said out loud "the wing won't last another lap". And it didn't.

As for Maldonado, I'm withholding comment because I think he's a shoo-in for 'Donkey of the Year'. So why pick on him race-by-race? ;)

[AndyL]

From a number of contenders, I think I have to give it to Alonso/Alonso's team for not pitting the car in. As soon as Alonso bypassed the pits, I said out loud "the wing won't last another lap". And it didn't.

I'd definitely blame the team rather than Alonso. Presumably he would have felt some loss of downforce, but it couldn't have been too bad as his pace was still reasonable. He wouldn't have been able to see whether he had just lost some end fence/top elements, or done something more serious.

Seems like the Ferrari pit wall were the only people who were looking at that damage and not thinking that Alonso would definitely have to pit. Pretty astonishing decision-making.

[massafan4]

Alonso, obviously. He wanted too much, instead of sure and safety.

[airshifter]

I'm just trying to imagine Ferrari telling Fernando: "Seb is out, just gift those 7 extra points to Felipe". Yeah, right. RB's authority was in tatters when they came up with that ridiculous call. Vettel merely drove the point home by making them look like clowns, as did Ross Brawn by keeping Nico behind for no good reason. If nothing else, yesterdays race showed what a friggin' shambles F1 has become. Race fixing in the second GP. If I wanted to see rigged races, I could just as well watch NASCRAP.

RB doesn't have to make calls that the fans like, or that the drivers like. They have huge amounts of money invested, and they can decide how or when to protect the cars and/or drivers as they are both company assets. Being that doing so is now within the rules, they can do it in public as well.

I can guarantee you one thing. If I managed a team and a driver did such a thing, I would be making it very, very clear that being a WDC doesn't guarantee a seat the following year. If the contract allowed I would also fine or withhold pay from such a person.

I don't like team orders myself, and wish there was a way to police them and make them against the rules again. But to me this is simply a case of a very well paid employee (or contractor more likely) that has ignored direct and concise instruction from the employer.

[ioan]

If someone like myself were to write a criticism of my employer on Facebook for instance, I couldn't defend myself by suggesting they make the distinction between me the Design Engineer at work and me the civilian who has a freedom of speech to make public condemnations. It doesn't really work like that and someone in Lauda's position is more than aware of that I would hope.

Only that Lauda didn't criticize his employer, aka Mercedes, he criticized Brawn's decision, and Brawn at this time sits lower then Lauda in the Mercedes F1 team. Which makes your analogy unsuited.
PS: And Lauda also mentioned that what Brawn did is not according to Mercedes racing ethics, and he was right. So he did nothing to wrong his employer.

[truefan72]

I can't for the life of me understand why the hired Lauda of all people. The guy cannot keep his mouth shut and will not do the organisation anything good. Next they're going to hire Eddie Jordan.

Lauda who was one of my boyhood hero's as was Gerhard Berger, are now known more for their absurd statements and mishaps, poor inter-team atmospheres and generally annoying the heck out of everyone.
If anyone is going to be gone sooner than later it is Lauda. And speaking of team orders etc, this is a driver who in his career benefited from #1 status on several occasions. and now can't see the irony of his comments.
He drove in an era where the #1 driver had the 3rd car fitted to his specs, who had every advantage afforded to them, many times to the detriment of the second driver.

[truefan72]

RB doesn't have to make calls that the fans like, or that the drivers like. They have huge amounts of money invested, and they can decide how or when to protect the cars and/or drivers as they are both company assets. Being that doing so is now within the rules, they can do it in public as well.

I can guarantee you one thing. If I managed a team and a driver did such a thing, I would be making it very, very clear that being a WDC doesn't guarantee a seat the following year. If the contract allowed I would also fine or withhold pay from such a person.

I don't like team orders myself, and wish there was a way to police them and make them against the rules again. But to me this is simply a case of a very well paid employee (or contractor more likely) that has ignored direct and concise instruction from the employer.

and it wasn't even a fair fight they were told to turn their engines down. Webber did so, Vettel disobeyed and used the advantage to pass Webber. There was nothing ridiculous about the situation. I bet you if the tables were turned, dj_bystander would be screaming bloody murder, and spouting an RBR conspiracy to shaft the "german" driver.

[dj_bytedisaster]

and it wasn't even a fair fight they were told to turn their engines down. Webber did so, Vettel disobeyed and used the advantage to pass Webber. There was nothing ridiculous about the situation. I bet you if the tables were turned, dj_bystander would be screaming bloody murder, and spouting an RBR conspiracy to shaft the "german" driver.

Bull****. Mark already did disobey team orders twice and I didn't scream bloody murder. Don't try to predict my reaction based on how you would react Mr. truefanboy.

[henners88]

Only that Lauda didn't criticize his employer, aka Mercedes, he criticized Brawn's decision, and Brawn at this time sits lower then Lauda in the Mercedes F1 team. Which makes your analogy unsuited.
PS: And Lauda also mentioned that what Brawn did is not according to Mercedes racing ethics, and he was right. So he did nothing to wrong his employer.
I'm sorry but it is very unprofessional for a 'non excutive chairman' to undermine the principle of the team in public. It is Lauda's job to head meetings and act as the team representative to the outside world. Criticising the team heads decision to the worlds media without conducting an internal meeting to discuss matters is unprofessional regardless of how individuals speculate on who is higher up the team order than the other. You say Mercedes do not possess racing ethics where team orders are called yet had very different ethics back in 1998 when they had a hand in the favouritism of Mika. I think this is either a loose claim or the ethics are adapted to suit any given situation. Personally I think Lauda was just speaking before thinking and perhaps being a little too emotional about his own favourite driver within Mercedes. Most of us here are of the opinion Nico deserved the place instead of Hamilton on merit, but that is our opinion, not hiding behind supposed ethics of compromising our professional positions. ;)

[zako85]

So for you and (many others in here) Fernando deserves the award, while Vettel did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be mentioned :crazy:


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I support Vettel's position and blame Horner. I agree with folks who listed Horner as the donkey of race. Why? Who is Webber to be given seven "free" extra points at the expense of Vettel? Vettel is a three time world champion and is gunning for his fourth straight title. Vettel has yet to reach the peak of his skills and accomplishments. Webber passed his peak in 2010. I am surprised that the team did not give Webber a straight order to move away, but I am _shocked_ that such an order was actually given to Vettel. Webber should really be putting a "Barrichello smile" (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/03/f1-report-smells-like-team-spirit/) on the podiums for being given a chance to drive the fastest car of the past three years. Instead he blackmails the team by refusing the orders and possibly jeopardizing the team and Vettel's championships by racing him hard. Do you know how many fine drivers would love to have Webber's seat?

As I have mentioned above, I do really like the Vettel/Webber duo, because with Webber's attitude Vettel really can't take anything for granted. Horner was to blame here IMO.

[The Black Knight]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I support Vettel's position and blame Horner. I agree with folks who listed Horner as the donkey of race. Why? Who is Webber to be given seven "free" extra points at the expense of Vettel? Vettel is a three time world champion and is gunning for his fourth straight title. Vettel has yet to reach the peak of his skills and accomplishments. Webber passed his peak in 2010. I am surprised that the team did not give Webber a straight order to move away, but I am _shocked_ that such an order was actually given to Vettel. Webber should really be putting a "Barrichello smile" (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/03/f1-report-smells-like-team-spirit/) on the podiums for being given a chance to drive the fastest car of the past three years. Instead he blackmails the team by refusing the orders and possibly jeopardizing the team and Vettel's championships by racing him hard. Do you know how many fine drivers would love to have Webber's seat?

As I have mentioned above, I do really like the Vettel/Webber duo, because with Webber's attitude Vettel really can't take anything for granted. Horner was to blame here IMO.

No he wasn't to blame at all. The hypocrisy of Mark Webber after ignoring team orders in Brazil 2012, Silverstone 2011 and perhaps many other times that we don't know about. Why should Vettel not pass Mark? Vettel was going for the title in Brazil, the bloody title like, and do you think that Mark gave a ****? Not on your nelly. Mark got served his own medicine and now is b*tching about it like a little school girl. Must as I want to blame Vettel here because I am not a fan of the guy, the only person Mark has to blame is himself for being a hypocrite. Practice what you preach or else shut up.

As for Vettel, I'd actually have a lot more time for him if he had a pair of goonies and came out just saying yeah I intentionally did it because I'm a 3 time WDC going for a 4th rather than all this BS about I didn't realize it and I f*cked up. He knew exactly what he was doing when he was doing it and he had already made the decision from within the car to suffer the media and team backlash for 7 extra points. It was ruthless but that's part of what makes him the driver he is, taking that criticism with a pinch of salt and moving on. I doubt he lost any sleep over it on Sunday night and I LOL'd big time when he said he wouldn't sleep well tonight in an interview. I'm still laughing, in fact.

[SGWilko]

We'll see about this one.
From what has been reported both Lauda and Wolf already distanced themselves from what Ross did and explained that Mercedes is not seeing this approach as a healthy one. IMO Brawn will be out of Mercedes F1 soon for making too many wrong calls, today's being only one of many.

Whatever happened, you'd be 'damned if you do, damned if you don't here'.

Mercedes ruined Lewis' race by not putting enough fuel in. So they took the view that to further hamper him would be a double whammy. Nico was not in a position to overtake until IIRC the latter stages of the race, and it was logical at this stage to turn the wick down and hold station.

Is there a right and a wrong answer for this? - probably not!

[henners88]

No he wasn't to blame at all. The hypocrisy of Mark Webber after ignoring team orders in Brazil 2012, Silverstone 2011 and perhaps many other times that we don't know about. Why should Vettel not pass Mark? Vettel was going for the title in Brazil, the bloody title like, and do you think that Mark gave a ****? Not on your nelly. Mark got served his own medicine and now is b*tching about it like a little school girl. Must as I want to blame Vettel here because I am not a fan of the guy, the only person Mark has to blame is himself for being a hypocrite. Practice what you preach or else shut up.
I'd be interested to know what Webber did in Brazil last year that ignored team orders? As for Silverstone 2011 he followed team orders after being warned by maintaining the gap. He made it difficult for Seb by getting very close and could have passed had he wanted to, but didn't. Horner stood by this when interviewed back at the time. We need better examples than those two or at least an explanation for what many of us have missed. :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=TYPCS3VXxGY

[zako85]

As for Vettel, I'd actually have a lot more time for him if he had a pair of goonies and came out just saying yeah I intentionally did it because I'm a 3 time WDC going for a 4th rather than all this BS about I didn't realize it and I f*cked up. He knew exactly what he was doing when he was doing it and he had already made the decision from within the car to suffer the media and team backlash for 7 extra points. It was ruthless but that's part of what makes him the driver he is, taking that criticism with a pinch of salt and moving on. I doubt he lost any sleep over it on Sunday night and I LOL'd big time when he said he wouldn't sleep well tonight in an interview. I'm still laughing, in fact.

It was quite diplomatic of Vettel to acknowledge later that he disobeyed the team order, while shedding some crocodile teams. Vettel probably did not want to make his partnership with Webber to become even more adversarial than it is already. I wouldn't say Vettel is ruthless. He may be a little arrogant and still immature but I don't think he has done ruthless things on the race track.

PS: What would I prefer as a team principal (who happens to care about racing)? Who cares if someone is running out of fuel. That's just too bad and likely drivers fault. Just let them race, as long as they do it clean. Just watch the two Chip Ganassi cars fighting each other on the last laps of 2012 Indy 500, nice and clean, admirable.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'd be interested to know what Webber did in Brazil last year that ignored team orders? As for Silverstone 2011 he followed team orders after being warned by maintaining the gap. He made it difficult for Seb by getting very close and could have passed had he wanted to, but didn't. Horner stood by this when interviewed back at the time. We need better examples than those two or at least an explanation for what many of us have missed. :confused:

F1 2011 Red Bull's team order to Webber 'Maintain the Gap' - Silverstone 2011.mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=TYPCS3VXxGY)

This is what Mark said after Silverstone 2011: Webber 'ignored' Red Bull team orders - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/motorsport/07/11/motorsport.f1.webber.vettel/index.html)

So basically, he's not ok with it if told to hold position behind Vettel, but if the roles are reversed he craps his pants if overtaken. That's the very definition of a hypocrit.

[henners88]

This is what Mark said after Silverstone 2011: Webber 'ignored' Red Bull team orders - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/motorsport/07/11/motorsport.f1.webber.vettel/index.html)

So basically, he's not ok with it if told to hold position behind Vettel, but if the roles are reversed he craps his pants if overtaken. That's the very definition of a hypocrit.
I think it was Vettel who was scared in this latest incident judging by the body language of both drivers after the race. Webber certainly doesn't 'crap' himself.

Whilst we are on the subject of hypocrites why are you condemning Webber's previous intent without following through with ignoring team orders, yet defending a driver that actually 'did' ignore team orders? That's not a rhetorical question.

If this latest incident is just to be accepted as 'payback' for previous fall outs with Webber, why are Marko, Horner, Newey, and Webber annoyed with their star of the team? Is it a team of hypocrites? Three questions.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Whilst we are on the subject of hypocrites why are you condemning Webber's previous intent without following through with ignoring team orders, yet defending a driver that actually 'did' ignore team orders? That's not a rhetorical question.

Did you read that article? Mark didn't intend to ignore team orders - he did. He just couldn't get past. Silverstone '11 and Malaysia '13 are one and the same thing with the only difference being that Vettel got the result he wanted and Mark failed, which is probably much more infuriating to him than the fact that Vettel didn't be a nice boy and let him cruise to victory unchallenged. Credit though, where credit's due. Mark actually had the cojones to say what's what instead of cooking up a half-arsed bogus apology.
From a 'team player' perspective both their actions were wrong, and I think I've said so more than once over the last 3 days. The real problem here isn't the drivers, but the team. Giving out team orders in the second race or barely haöfway into the season is a stupid idea.


If this latest incident is just to be accepted as 'payback' for previous fall outs with Webber, why are Marko, Horner, Newey, and Webber annoyed with their star of the team? Is it a team of hypocrites? Three questions.

I remember them not being particularly amused with Mark either, most people have just forgotten that already. To quote Horner after the Brazil GP last year: "Today just about everybody helped Sebastian, except Mark." (After being asked on German TV about how quickly the Toro Rosso's got out of the way)

[henners88]

Did you read that article? Mark didn't intend to ignore team orders - he did. He just couldn't get past. Silverstone '11 and Malaysia '13 are one and the same thing with the only difference being that Vettel got the result he wanted and Mark failed, which is probably much more infuriating to him than the fact that Vettel didn't be a nice boy and let him cruise to victory unchallenged.
I think it was pretty obvious to everyone who watched the Silverstone race that Mark could easily have passed Vettel. That much is clear from the amount he lifts when shown from his on-board footage. Red Bull chose to say he couldn't pass Seb because it was the best possible response from a PR perspective. It made the situation look like the two raced it out and Seb was unbeatable. That made it easier to handle because otherwise the teams authority would have been questioned like it has in this latest incident. Webber pushed his dominance in that race as far as he could to make his point. Seb made his point by actually following through with the action which is why this has been made a bigger deal.

I don't agree the team is at fault here because both drivers have questioned the team authority in the past and present. You could blame person management from the teams perspective I suppose but if they are not being obeyed than its their job to issue internal sanctions on the drivers. Red Bull can't suspend either driver because too much is at stake, but they could issue monetary fines for disobedience like we see in football.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't agree the team is at fault here because both drivers have questioned the team authority in the past and present. You could blame person management from the teams perspective I suppose but if they are not being obeyed than its their job to issue internal sanctions on the drivers. Red Bull can't suspend either driver because too much is at stake, but they could issue monetary fines for disobedience like we see in football.

It's not about person management, it's about plausibility. Late last year, when RB asked Mark to help Vettel he most of the times complied and when he didn't they called him into the pits at 'convenient' times. Those team orders were believable and although grudgingly Mark complied, but asking someone, who won the title less than half a year ago by a mere 3 points to give away 7 points for no good reason in only the second race of the year is not believable. To use your football analogy: If you ask your star striker to pass to the offensive midfielder instead of going for paydirt if he is free in front of the goal won't get you much compliance, but a rather bewildered look from said striker.
Asking a competetive racing driver to forfeit a chance for a win is like ordering a Serbian bean soup in a Croatian restaurant - you can try, but don't expect a favourable result.

[henners88]

It's not about person management, it's about plausibility. Late last year, when RB asked Mark to help Vettel he most of the times complied and when he didn't they called him into the pits at 'convenient' times. Those team orders were believable and although grudgingly Mark complied, but asking someone, who won the title less than half a year ago by a mere 3 points to give away 7 points for no good reason in only the second race of the year is not believable. To use your football analogy: If you ask your star striker to pass to the offensive midfielder instead of going for paydirt if he is free in front of the goal won't get you much compliance, but a rather bewildered look from said striker.
Asking a competetive racing driver to forfeit a chance for a win is like ordering a Serbian bean soup in a Croatian restaurant - you can try, but don't expect a favourable result.
If Red Bull had asked Webber to turn his engine down and allow Seb past, it would have sent the wrong message to Mark and the fans watching. He had earned that victory on merit and his previous championship finishing positions shouldn't come in to it IMO. There may be an outside chance this season that Vettel will hit an unlucky spell and its Mark who needs those extra points. With the history these guys have together Red Bull knew it wouldn't be a clean fight should one want to pass the other. Vettel needs to take responsibility for his actions much like Mark should and has in the past.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Red Bull had asked Webber to turn his engine down and allow Seb past, it would have sent the wrong message to Mark and the fans watching. He had earned that victory on merit and his previous championship finishing positions shouldn't come in to it IMO. There may be an outside chance this season that Vettel will hit an unlucky spell and its Mark who needs those extra points. With the history these guys have together Red Bull knew it wouldn't be a clean fight should one want to pass the other. Vettel needs to take responsibility for his actions much like Mark should and has in the past.

Sorry, but on that we disagree. Mark was never more than 4 or 5 seconds ahead of Seb and most of that time was from Seb going into the pits one or two laps too early for the first stop (a call made by the team incidentally). Before the last stop Mark was 4 seconds ahead, both drivers in conserve tires mode. Seb was called in 2 laps before Mark to cover Hamilton. He went out guns blazing and when Mark came out of the pits they were basically nose-to-tail, so Vettel had vaporized those 4 seconds. This early in the season, they should have allowed them to go for a fight instead of fixing the result right there.
And as for 'merit'. In the Red Bull camp there is one guy who collected two poles in as many races and even when the car ate tires like hot cakes in Melbourne made it to the podium and it wasn't Mark. I'd say the two of them were pretty evenly matched at Malaysia, but Mark didn't quite deliver any performance that would merit preferring to give the points to the guy who failed to bring in the title for four years over the guy who did for three years on the trot.
Ferrari will shaft Massa for any additional point they can gain for Fernando and this year's Ferrari is much more competetive than last year's edition, so RB can't afford to give Mark any freebie points, because I'd be willing to bet a sizeable amount of money that in the end it will be Vettel again with the bigger points haul. In fact I would, if the odds weren't that rotten for a 4th title...

[henners88]

Sorry, but on that we disagree.
Fair enough we can agree to disagree.

I've run out of interest with this discussion today. Apologies for not responding more in depth, but I have nothing more to add and my opinion is unchanged. :)

[zako85]

I find the idea that Webber dominanted the race quite absurd. When he came out of pits, Vettel was immediately behind him. It this point a position change was pretty much certain as Webber was at a disadvantage with colder tires.

I also find the idea that team orders should not be given early in the year also absurd. The team orders should not be given early in the year only when the both drivers still have a shot at winning the championship. Does anyone still believe that Webber is a championship material? If the team wanted to be please the fans, there should have been no orders at all. If the team wanted maximize the chance to win the WDC, Mark should have been given the order to let Vettel through. But the order that the team actually gave was bizzare. Can you imagine Ferrari giving order to Schumacher to say behind Barrichello early in season. This is simply absurd. Horner will have some explaining to do to his bosses. I honestly think this may be the last year we're seeing Webber at RBR.

[The Black Knight]

I very much agreed with everything in this article about Vettel. I don't agree with the Mercedes bit as Hamilton wants to win by himself but the rest I agree with.

The Smiling Assassin | The Buxton Blog (http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/the-smiling-assassin/)

[Donney]

I think the GP has a whole drove of Donkeys:

Alonso for risking the whole race waiting a couple of laps to pit and change the front wing, although as he said it is easier to make a decision after the events.

Force India for the wheel nuts fiasco.

Hamilton for going back "home"

Red Bull for their excellent team spirit and anger management program ;)

Mercedes for not trusting themselves and not wanting to risk two places in the top 5.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I very much agreed with everything in this article about Vettel. I don't agree with the Mercedes bit as Hamilton wants to win by himself but the rest I agree with.

The Smiling Assassin | The Buxton Blog (http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/the-smiling-assassin/)

LOL, Brilliant article. Unfortunately it's a minority view. Fact of the matter is that out of the last 13 championships, 8 have been won by 'evil Germans' and many people are po'ed about that. Had Barichello and Massa continued to collect titles after Senna, we might have had a Brazilian hate-fest by now or would Jenson and Lewis have collected title after title, people would be bashing anyone with a union jack next to his name.

[Knock-on]

LOL, Brilliant article. Unfortunately it's a minority view. Fact of the matter is that out of the last 13 championships, 8 have been won by 'evil Germans' and many people are po'ed about that. Had Barichello and Massa continued to collect titles after Senna, we might have had a Brazilian hate-fest by now or would Jenson and Lewis have collected title after title, people would be bashing anyone with a union jack next to his name.

Don't agree with this at all.

People didn't like Schumy because of his on track behaviour. Some don't like Alonso for his behaviour at McLaren. Some dislike Lewis because he raced for McLaren and made some stupid mistakes in his early career. Some don't like Kimi because he's not very talkative etc etc. Nothing to do with Nationality.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Alonso for risking the whole race waiting a couple of laps to pit and change the front wing, although as he said it is easier to make a decision after the events.


The team made that decision, not Fernando. But yes, hindsight is 20/20

[rjbetty]

I very much agreed with everything in this article about Vettel. I don't agree with the Mercedes bit as Hamilton wants to win by himself but the rest I agree with.

The Smiling Assassin | The Buxton Blog (http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/the-smiling-assassin/)

That was brilliant Black Knight - Thanks for posting it!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Don't agree with this at all.

People didn't like Schumy because of his on track behaviour. Some don't like Alonso for his behaviour at McLaren. Some dislike Lewis because he raced for McLaren and made some stupid mistakes in his early career. Some don't like Kimi because he's not very talkative etc etc. Nothing to do with Nationality.

See? On the surface you may be right, but on second glance that thing falls apart. If you hate Schumacher for his on-track antics you'll have to hate Senna,too, because he was at least if not even more ruthless than Schumacher. MS got DSQ'ed for deliberately crashing into Villeneuve at Jerez '97. Senna got a WDC for deliberately crashing into Prost. If you dislike Fernando for his rotten politics, you'd have to hate Prost, because he did that throughout his career. If you dislike Kimi for not being outspoken, you'd have to hate Mika. He wasn't exactly known as a fast talker, was he?
There are a lot of people in here, who hate Vettel for some reason, but nobody ever said 'I hate him, he is as whiny a child like Mansell', but he is. None of the Alonso haters say that he is as rotten a personality as Piquet sr., but in many ways he is. Nationality plays a big part of it. There's this guy, whpo tried to sell us Damon Hill as a great racer over the last few days and there's me defending Vettel against the wave of hate despite not even being a true fan of his.
Let's be honest most of us cheer to a degree for their compatriots on the grid. We may not be devoted fanbois, but we side with them anyways. You only need to have a look at the TV stations: BBC coverage was one big honking Lewis Hamilton worshipping and RTL coverage in germany is essentially the Curch Of St. Sebastian.

[steveaki13]

LOL, Brilliant article. Unfortunately it's a minority view. Fact of the matter is that out of the last 13 championships, 8 have been won by 'evil Germans' and many people are po'ed about that. Had Barichello and Massa continued to collect titles after Senna, we might have had a Brazilian hate-fest by now or would Jenson and Lewis have collected title after title, people would be bashing anyone with a union jack next to his name.

What?

I am British/English and I loved Michael Schumacher and admire Vettel without being a fan, it doesnt mean that because I think F1 could do with a new champion, or that the move on Webber was handled poorly by the team, that I hate Germans???

Why are you bringing race/nationality into the debate. You seem to like bringing this up everytime you disagree with someone not liking a German driver.

I for one think that is pretty poor.

[henners88]

See? On the surface you may be right, but on second glance that thing falls apart. If you hate Schumacher for his on-track antics you'll have to hate Senna,too, because he was at least if not even more ruthless than Schumacher. MS got DSQ'ed for deliberately crashing into Villeneuve at Jerez '97. Senna got a WDC for deliberately crashing into Prost. If you dislike Fernando for his rotten politics, you'd have to hate Prost, because he did that throughout his career. If you dislike Kimi for not being outspoken, you'd have to hate Mika. He wasn't exactly known as a fast talker, was he?
There are a lot of people in here, who hate Vettel for some reason, but nobody ever said 'I hate him, he is as whiny a child like Mansell', but he is. None of the Alonso haters say that he is as rotten a personality as Piquet sr., but in many ways he is. Nationality plays a big part of it. There's this guy, whpo tried to sell us Damon Hill as a great racer over the last few days and there's me defending Vettel against the wave of hate despite not even being a true fan of his.
Let's be honest most of us cheer to a degree for their compatriots on the grid. We may not be devoted fanbois, but we side with them anyways. You only need to have a look at the TV stations: BBC coverage was one big honking Lewis Hamilton worshipping and RTL coverage in germany is essentially the Curch Of St. Sebastian.
I disagree with the BBC being Lewis Hamilton worshipping. Its become a little more in favour of Lewis but between 2010 and 2012 it was very much a Red Bull and Vettel worship going on. It used to get right up my nose when we had so many British drivers on the grid. It should be showing more of the British drivers because that's what British viewers are interested in. I think because Red Bull are essentially a British team, they got carried away a bit with the success story with Newey and Horner appearing all so often with big thanks going back to Milton Keynes after every victory. I have nothing against RTL worshiping German drivers, that's the way it should be.

I openly admit I follow Lewis Hamilton because I can relate to him more than any other driver (similar age) and he's British. I don't dislike drivers based on nationality but more to do with character traits I don't like. I never liked Schumacher because of his on track antics and his arrogance in never telling the truth when asked. Winning a WDC unfairly against a driver I supported at the time may well have tainted my view on him for the rest of his career. I liked him the second time round and cheered him on quite a few times when I thought he'd get a podium. When he got pole at Monaco I jumped out of my seat, but feel he came across as a nicer guy in his Mercedes days. I don't particularly like Vettel but admire he is a very talented driver. I don't 'hate' him as that is a strong word and I don't care enough to go that deep in to things.

[truefan72]

I'd be interested to know what Webber did in Brazil last year that ignored team orders? As for Silverstone 2011 he followed team orders after being warned by maintaining the gap. He made it difficult for Seb by getting very close and could have passed had he wanted to, but didn't. Horner stood by this when interviewed back at the time. We need better examples than those two or at least an explanation for what many of us have missed. :confused:

F1 2011 Red Bull's team order to Webber 'Maintain the Gap' - Silverstone 2011.mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=TYPCS3VXxGY)

couldn't have said it better myself
Webber clearly held back and showed he could have easily passed vettel.
what he did was no different than what Rosberg did in the race and others have done so in the past, including massa, etc to show that if they wanted to they could overtake.
Watching that race live, it was clear that Webber had no intention to pass Vettel only to show him and the team that he could have if he wanted too.
Meanwhile vettel was on the radio begging the team to have them hold station
then turns around and disobeys the same order in Malaysia 2013...and then lies about it

[truefan72]

I very much agreed with everything in this article about Vettel. I don't agree with the Mercedes bit as Hamilton wants to win by himself but the rest I agree with.

The Smiling Assassin | The Buxton Blog (http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/the-smiling-assassin/)

and that website needs a severe makeover

[Tazio]

Don't agree with this at all.

People didn't like Schumy because of his on track behaviour. Some don't like Alonso for his behaviour at McLaren. Some dislike Lewis because he raced for McLaren and made some stupid mistakes in his early career. Some don't like Kimi because he's not very talkative etc etc. Nothing to do with Nationality.
I have to agree with this post, real F1 enthusiasts appreciate talent first, attitude second, and place nationality way down the list somewhere. It's natural to pull for your compatriots, but quite petty to deride simply because of nationality. As dj_' put it "many are po'ed about that [Germans success]," but I think this is an extremely juvenile perspective held by simpletons, and does the sport a disservice.

[henners88]

and that website needs a severe makeover
Yeah cheap wordpress template indeed lol.

[Donney]

Regarding the nationality issues, I think it is obvious we are somewhat biased towards our compatriots, Some are completely blinded by it, but I'd say most of us are just shadowed by it.

What I also think is that given some time most of us get to see what makes other drivers brilliant. I used to hate Hamilton because he was giving Alonso a hard time while at McLaren, nowadays I love seeing him racing and I have no hard feeling for him. It happened to me too with Schumacher, Senna and Prost.

I suppose it is a question of time. Nowadays I don't really like Vettel, and it has nothing to do with him being German, it has more to do with him winning all the time, whether on talent or team decisions.

[Tazio]

I used to hate Hamilton because he was giving Alonso a hard time while at McLaren, nowadays I love seeing him racing and I have no hard feeling for him. I find it nothing short of hysterical that Lewis and Fred have moved past their catastrophe of a pairing at McLaren, and by all accounts not only let it go but have sincere admiration for each other, yet many of their compatriots are still preoccupied with it. How petty is that? :crazy:

[dj_bytedisaster]

I am British/English and I loved Michael Schumacher and admire Vettel without being a fan, it doesnt mean that because I think F1 could do with a new champion, or that the move on Webber was handled poorly by the team, that I hate Germans???


Overreacting often? I didn't speak of national hate, but national bias. My three favourite drivers are/were Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi and Danica Patrick - no Germans in that lot, but still I'm sort of biased to my compatriots, too, which is why I tend to support Vettel, Sutil & Co, especially when blind hatred is sprouted. And I'm sure a lot of the brits would defend Hamilton if people started bashing him, even if they aren't Hamilton fans. That was all I meant to say.
There is a fine difference between disliking an criticizing a driver and just all out hating him/her. Read Gary Walker's posts in the Malaysian GP thread and you'll know what all out hate and nationalism looks like.

I think Donney summed it up best.

[henners88]

Read Gary Walker's posts in the Malaysian GP thread and you'll know what all out hate and nationalism looks like.
Garry is quite unique in how he directs his support. I couldn't accuse him of being nationalistic though as he has never confirmed his own nationality on here. He certainly isn't British. Sorry OT. :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Garry is quite unique in how he directs his support. I couldn't accuse him of being nationalistic though as he has never confirmed his own nationality on here. He certainly isn't British. Sorry OT. :)

Well, he has very fond words for Vettel, Rosberg and Sutil though. More than for any other driver and since all three of those happen to be of teutonic origin it leads me to believe that he actually has a bit of a problem with ze Fatherland. I've been around here for almost 12 years (with longer breaks due to heavy illness) and the things I've been exposed to just because of my nationality defy belief, which is why I may be a bit oversensitive in that area. Thankfully in recent years it has much improved. Back in the early 'naughties' being called a Nazi was not that uncommon a thing.

[henners88]

I've been here 5 years with over 7,000 posts and have never seen anyone being too provocative due to nationality. I myself have had my opinions judged because I'm British but that's always going to happen if someone's argument is failing. Same when its directed at you. Garry may well just dislike those drivers and the connection may be purely coincidence? Best not to dig too deep into it. :)

[Dave B]

I once got called racist for not liking the new shape Mini. Go figure. :s

[henners88]

I once got called racist for not liking the new shape Mini. Go figure. :s

Is that the BMW 1 series made in Cowley Dave? lol After flipping an original Mini I sort of went off them, perhaps I was racist against my own country? :p


Back OT so is it Vettel or Alonso who are official Donkeys?

[steveaki13]

I've been here 5 years with over 7,000 posts

Dont you mean 5 years and 491 posts. :D



and have never seen anyone being too provocative due to nationality. I myself have had my opinions judged because I'm British but that's always going to happen if someone's argument is failing. Same when its directed at you. Garry may well just dislike those drivers and the connection may be purely coincidence? Best not to dig too deep into it. :)



Agree totally and I think to defend Garry, he is a big Schumi fan. Who happens to be German.

As for hating Vettel - He might just not like the guy.

Sutil - As good a driver as he is, he might just not be keen on Slasher. ;) Afterall despite the lack of clarity on his glass smashing incident. It is not something which makes you think highly of him.

As for Nico. I dont know maybe Garry is bald and is jealous of Nico's golden locks.

[Robinho]

I have to dig in and say from my recollection Garry is one of the most devout Schumi fans out there, so I highly doubt his extreme dislike of Vettel stems from his nationality

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[AndyL]

Had Barichello and Massa continued to collect titles after Senna, we might have had a Brazilian hate-fest by now

Nonsense. If that had happened there would not have been a "Brazilian hate-fest" because both Barrichello and Massa are likeable characters, not ruthless and cynical as Schumacher was in his first career.
Which is also a large part of why they didn't rack up a long run of consecutive Brazilian titles of course.

[Garry Walker]

. Read Gary Walker's posts in the Malaysian GP thread and you'll know what all out hate and nationalism looks like.
:laugh:


Well, he has very fond words for Vettel, Rosberg and Sutil though. More than for any other driver and since all three of those happen to be of teutonic origin it leads me to believe that he actually has a bit of a problem with ze Fatherland. I've been around here for almost 12 years (with longer breaks due to heavy illness) and the things I've been exposed to just because of my nationality defy belief, which is why I may be a bit oversensitive in that area. Thankfully in recent years it has much improved. Back in the early 'naughties' being called a Nazi was not that uncommon a thing. I would never call you a nazi, but based on this very last post, I could call you paranoid and very likely drunk.



Agree totally and I think to defend Garry, he is a big Schumi fan. Who happens to be German.

As for hating Vettel - He might just not like the guy.

Sutil - As good a driver as he is, he might just not be keen on Slasher. ;) Afterall despite the lack of clarity on his glass smashing incident. It is not something which makes you think highly of him.
Oh why oh why do you make sense and ruin Bobo's dream of seeing hatred of germans everywhere.



As for Nico. I dont know maybe Garry is bald and is jealous of Nico's golden locks. :laugh: :laugh: