Pirelli 2013 ?

[SGWilko]

It's got nothing directly to do with it, it just marks this guy out as being a bit of a plonker that's all.

What's his name, I'll take a look?

[Daniel]

What's his name, I'll take a look?

Lee Stretch, I've just realised that he likes Windows Phones, I take back what I said about him, he's a top bloke and I completely agree that 9/11 was an inside job! :p

[DexDexter]

I just don't understand this Pirelli bashing. They were asked to produce bad tires which spice up the racing and they did. Now they obviously made a big mistake like Michelin few years ago in America and will undoubtedly produce new safer tires very quickly. I understand that people are upset about tire failures but it seems to me that most of the criticism towards Pirelli on this forum actually tells us that they did a good job with the tires: they are unpredictable, difficult to make work, require skills from drivers etc.

[Daniel]

I just don't understand this Pirelli bashing. They were asked to produce bad tires which spice up the racing and they did. Now they obviously made a big mistake like Michelin few years ago in America and will undoubtedly produce new safer tires very quickly. I understand that people are upset about tire failures but it seems to me that most of the criticism towards Pirelli on this forum actually tells us that they did a good job with the tires: they are unpredictable, difficult to make work, require skills from drivers etc.

They were asked to make tyres that degraded more quickly, not tyres which weren't as strong in terms of construction......

[SGWilko]

tyres which weren't as strong in terms of construction......

Are you able to state that is a fact, or is it just that the the current breed of F1 cars, and the way the tyres have to be driven to maintain laptime but reduce wear, is the cause of the failures?

[SGWilko]

Lee Stretch, I've just realised that he likes Windows Phones, I take back what I said about him, he's a top bloke and I completely agree that 9/11 was an inside job! :p

He doesn't mention 9/11, the chap called Daniel Vn that replies though, who appears to own a dog similar in breed to one you posted on here in another thread, does. Anyone we know?

[Daniel]

He doesn't mention 9/11, the chap called Daniel Vn that replies though, who appears to own a dog similar in breed to one you posted on here in another thread, does. Anyone we know?

Have a look at the groups he's part of :p

[Daniel]

Are you able to state that is a fact, or is it just that the the current breed of F1 cars, and the way the tyres have to be driven to maintain laptime but reduce wear, is the cause of the failures?

It's an observation I guess....

[SGWilko]

Have a look at the groups he's part of :p

No thanks, that's a bit creepy isn't it? Don't even know the guy......

[SGWilko]

Tyres | joeblogsf1 (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/tyres/)

Says it all.....

[pino]

Guys, lets stay on topic and quit personal comments before someone gets hurt ;)

[Daniel]

Tyres | joeblogsf1 (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/tyres/)

Says it all.....

Now that you've quoted my least favourite journalist I feel that I must revert back to my original stance and just bash Pirelli endlessly. Joe Saward is a pretty poor journalist IMHO.

[SGWilko]

Now that you've quoted my least favourite journalist I feel that I must revert back to my original stance and just bash Pirelli endlessly. Joe Saward is a pretty poor journalist IMHO.

I remember you arguing with him on the canopy subject..........

[Daniel]

I remember you arguing with him on the canopy subject..........

Me? Never! :)

[SGWilko]

Not one single issue can be blamed for the tyre problems at Silverstone, although this is not yet an official explanation;

Analysis: British Grand Prix Pirelli tyre failure causes - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108479)

[SGWilko]

Now that you've quoted my least favourite journalist I feel that I must revert back to my original stance and just bash Pirelli endlessly.

Glad to have supplied such a legitimate reason for you to bash Pirelli - way to go you.......

[Daniel]

I was being sarcastic :)

[SGWilko]

I was being sarcastic :)

Snap.......

[greencroft]

Have the kerbs at Silverstone been modified since last year's race?

[SGWilko]

Have the kerbs at Silverstone been modified since last year's race?

No.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting article here from autosport on the probably causes of the tire blowouts:
Analysis: British Grand Prix Pirelli tyre failure causes - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108479)

[SGWilko]

Interesting article here from autosport on the probably causes of the tire blowouts:
Analysis: British Grand Prix Pirelli tyre failure causes - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108479)

See #264 :)

[donKey jote]

the oracle "Marca" is claiming Pirelli changed the tyres for Silverstone without telling anybody, and that is the reason for Ferrari and Lotus' "sudden" loss of pace. :dozey:

Nothing to do with the blowouts however - they apparently added a kevlar layer to the belt to prevent delamination... the measure Ferrari and Lotus had previously blocked...

[steveaki13]

Its not really your place to advise people on where to post is it? Knock-on expressed his concern over an aspect of a sport he loves and also has an association with in his job. I'd much rather hear opinions from knowledgeable posters than those who join forums simply to bring attitude and stir.

This.

Knockie has been a defender of Pirelli in the past and has posted for many years here. Valued input.

[Zico]

Have the kerbs at Silverstone been modified since last year's race?



Former grand prix driver Derek Warwick - president of the British Racing Drivers' Club that owns Silverstone - rejected the idea that the kerbs could be at fault.
"These kerbs have been in since 2009 and we have had thousands and thousands of cars go over these kerbs and they have been absolutely fine," he said.
"We have had them checked by the FIA and they conform fully with the FIA."

From here- BBC Sport - F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone dismisses talk of boycott (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23132957)


:s

[SuperCooperDuper]

"Running pressures low is good for durability, but it means the contact patch of the tyre moves towards the inside shoulder - the very area that was being punished by the kerbs.
As Red Bull technical chief Adrian Newey said: "The tyre failures appeared to have been from the inside shoulder of the rear tyre. By raising the pressure then you move the contact pressure [patch] more to the centre of the tyre and less onto the edge"

So were the teams running the tires below Pirelli psi spec? That is what I would like to know, because if so then how can you fault Pirelli?

[airshifter]

Once the tire is gone, I doubt the teams would admit if they were running them low on pressure. They should have telemetry... wonder how that jives with the recommendations?

[kfzmeister]

Have the kerbs at Silverstone been modified since last year's race?

Pic of suspected kerb at turn 5 (Aintree). Teams suspect that tires are damaged here since drivers frequently pass edge onto green concrete portion. All damages were left rear tire.
Cars actually go over kerb and leave onto green patch and when coming back at kerbs probably damaged softer inside sidewall. This left hander has only been in existence since 2010. Part of the new section going onto Wellington Straight.

http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/images/580/389/q_80/se_sutton/0511333.jpg

[wedge]

Pirelli immediately changing their rear tyres with kevlar belt instead of steel

BBC Sport - Pirelli strengthens tyres after Silverstone blowouts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23141389)

[Daniel]

to me this is hogwash. I squarely blame mclaren for this. in all likelihood they underinflated the tire.
Sky sport need to stop withj the fear mongering etc

I remember the same rubbish during the michelin days after the usa gp where it was obvious that toyota's setup was the culprit not michelin. but teams and their egos always seem to think the problem is never theirs.
This is just another phony issue in my book.

just shameful talk on sky sport

Boy, don't you look silly now! :)

[Daniel]

Pirelli immediately changing their rear tyres with kevlar belt instead of steel

BBC Sport - Pirelli strengthens tyres after Silverstone blowouts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23141389)

and hopefully this is the end of the safety concerns. It's good to see that for once the common sense thing seems to be getting done.

Now to bring back in season testing for cars and tyres and we'll be better off.

[Knock-on]

I might have been a bit hasty in condemning Pirelli if teams were operating them outside of maximum parameters. I think I will wait and see what comes out but I suspect lessons will be learned all around.

As for our latest (re) incarnation, I'm flattered. I must have really made an impression on the poor lad :D

[skory]

"A series of different causes led to the tyre failures at silverstone: rear tyres mounted the wrong way round, low tyre pressures, extreme cambers and high kerbs" - Pirelli, explanation on Silverstone’ facts and next races (http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/news/2013/07/02/pirelli-explanation-on-silverstone-facts-and-next-races/)
Looks like this time teams goes too far...

[Robinho]

I'm seeing that the teams were running tyres on the opposite side than they should have, with outside guideline cambers and pressures. The same team's which voted down a change in construction. The FIA would not let representative cars be used for in season testing, yet Pirelli are getting most of the flack. Sure, they probably should have developed tyres with more tolerance, or been firmer or outside parameter usage, but for me the teams and the FIA are equally culpable.

Sent from North Korea using the dark network

[zako85]

By the way, why are left and right tires made differently? I assume it's because because most F1 circuits run clockwise, so the left side tires have to be made tougher?

The next issue is even stranger. Why do teams swap the left and right tires to the opposite sides?

[SGWilko]

By the way, why are left and right tires made differently? I assume it's because because most F1 circuits run clockwise, so the left side tires have to be made tougher?

The next issue is even stranger. Why do teams swap the left and right tires to the opposite sides?

The individual tyres are assymetrical I believe in tyrewall construction. I may well be talking cobblers mind......

[SGWilko]

Why do teams swap the left and right tires to the opposite sides?

I believe that the tread is designed in such a way to degrade faster in the intended rotational direction, by switching the tyre round to rotate the other way, teams have found out they last longer.

I must try that with the durex tonight.... ;)

[SGWilko]

But, the teams all bitching about unsafe may come back to haunt them given how they have been running the tyres - effectively willingly putting their own drivers at risk with - as DC said - 'driver killers'

[henners88]

If it is true that some teams have been using some tyres backwards or ignoring the Pirelli recommended PSi levels, then tighter moderation needs to take place in each pit garage. Pirelli are being asked by the week to chance tyre compounds and try new things, yet they have limited testing and are expected to be full proof straight off. If the teams are then using them against guidelines, then its hardly surprising we are going to see failures. I can't quite believe the teams would push the safety risks just to gain a few tenths. This of course may not be true at this point.

The problem we have now is nobody wants to take responsibility and the teams are trying to cover their backsides.

[airshifter]

By the way, why are left and right tires made differently? I assume it's because because most F1 circuits run clockwise, so the left side tires have to be made tougher?

The next issue is even stranger. Why do teams swap the left and right tires to the opposite sides?


In part from the link above provided by Skory:

"The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tyre. So swapping the tyres round has an effect on how they work in certain conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope with the very high loads that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that are particularly aggressive."

This seems strange at first, but when you consider the loads on these tires it makes sense. It appears Pirelli are factoring in the various G loads and designing based on such loads.

What I want to know is why the teams are swapping, and if they will incur punishment for doing so. If they swapped the tires intentionally, or for that matter ran tires out of pressure or camber specs, they introduced the danger created on track when the tires failed.

If I was Pirelli I would be requesting the data from the teams concerning pressures.

[SGWilko]

In part from the link above provided by Skory:

"The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tyre. So swapping the tyres round has an effect on how they work in certain conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope with the very high loads that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that are particularly aggressive."

This seems strange at first, but when you consider the loads on these tires it makes sense. It appears Pirelli are factoring in the various G loads and designing based on such loads.

What I want to know is why the teams are swapping, and if they will incur punishment for doing so. If they swapped the tires intentionally, or for that matter ran tires out of pressure or camber specs, they introduced the danger created on track when the tires failed.

If I was Pirelli I would be requesting the data from the teams concerning pressures.

When you see, like we did in practice at Silverstone, the left rear grains more than the right, they sometimes swap the tyres from right to left for the next session/from qually to race, to extend the life of that set of tyres. Turns out this is very dangerous.

How happy would you be if Kwik Fit put your road tyres on but ignored the arrows for rotation?

[SGWilko]

I would LOVE for the FIA to hand a suspended sentence to any team that swapped tyres, ran non recommended camber or PSI, and if they were caught again, disqualify them from that race. They'd soon listen then.

Wont happen of course.

[zako85]

I would LOVE for the FIA to hand a suspended sentence to any team that swapped tyres, ran non recommended camber or PSI, and if they were caught again, disqualify them from that race. They'd soon listen then.

Wont happen of course.

But do those parameters relly _have_ to fall into a specified range instead of being a simple recommendation or suggestion?

[SGWilko]

But do those parameters relly _have_ to fall into a specified range instead of being a simple recommendation or suggestion?

Why does your car manual specify tyre pressures. Wht take the car to have tracking checked etc???

Do as you are told, and you can be blameless if the tyre fails.....

[Zico]

The new tyres...

"The tyres will use a belt - the material on which the rubber is mounted - made of Kevlar rather than the current steel. Kevlar is designed to be more puncture resistant and it will also make the tyres run about 10C cooler than before.

Wet weather meant the teams were unable to do enough laps to reassure them the tyres would not change the behaviour of the cars and potentially favour one team over another.
From the Hungarian GP on 26-28 July onwards, Pirelli will introduce a new range of tyres with the same construction as was used last year with the rubber compounds used in 2013.
These tyres also have a Kevlar belt but the construction is different from those used this year.
This will almost certainly change the way the cars behave and could favour some teams over others."

BBC Sport - British Grand Prix: Pirelli blames teams over tyre failures (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23155008)


The new Kevlar belted tyres will run up to 10 Deg C cooler than the current ones? Wow!.. if that is true that is very likely to shake things up with the current pecking order.
It will be interesting to see if Red Bull and Merc are given a boost by this while Lotus and Ferrari suffer as some suspect.

[N4D13]

While the dip in tyre temperatures is likely to favour Red Bull and Merc, it remains to be seen how tyre pressure limits, camber limits and not changing tyres from left to right will affect them. It *might* be that these changes actually hamper their ability to save tyres rather than help them!

[wedge]

If the teams are on the limit of tyre usage via set up and practices despite advised not to then they only have themselves to blame.

When the BTCC visits Thruxton its the toughest track on tyres yet there teams and drivers who will push the limits but Dunlop aren't blamed for handing out crap tyres.


I would LOVE for the FIA to hand a suspended sentence to any team that swapped tyres, ran non recommended camber or PSI, and if they were caught again, disqualify them from that race. They'd soon listen then.

Wont happen of course.

Don't need to. The teams already now know the repercussions. The dangers of tyre failure at the 2011 Belgian GP put a stop to extreme front camber angles.

[airshifter]

I would LOVE for the FIA to hand a suspended sentence to any team that swapped tyres, ran non recommended camber or PSI, and if they were caught again, disqualify them from that race. They'd soon listen then.

Wont happen of course.

I'd be more than fine with that as well. It's one thing to push limits, but pushing limits that can put others in danger is a completely different thing.

I'd also be interested to know if Pirelli suggested the pressure changes or the teams just did it that quickly.

[steveaki13]

Boy, don't you look silly now! :)

;)

[truefan72]

As is said in a few posts here and there this past weekend
I strongly (and correctly) suspected that the bulk of the tire fiasco was to be laid at the feet of the teams and track
It is astounding the level of complete apathy the teams displayed towards staying within operating parameters and then also switching tires around too.
Just like 2005 when folks where all over michelin for the indy race, It was pretty much down to incompetence pf a particular team, and the politics of fota usurping any kind of reason.

Here again, teams were quick to try and blame pirelli, and when all the while they were the real culprits. And the FIA doesn't get a pass either for failing to properly assure a safe track and thinking that tires should be a joker element in the series

Now for some more damning evidence


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhoz9jzcCkE&feature=player_embedded

[MarkJones]

Teams have been swapping the rear tyres for ages without them exploding like hand grenades, so I'm not entirely convinced by Pirelli's latest statement about pressures and tyre direction. I am glad they're forcing the badly-needed new tyres on the teams, it's about time someone took control.

[SGWilko]

Teams have been swapping the rear tyres for ages without them exploding like hand grenades, so I'm not entirely convinced by Pirelli's latest statement about pressures and tyre direction. I am glad they're forcing the badly-needed new tyres on the teams, it's about time someone took control.

It depends on for how long Pirelli have been making the tyres with assymetrical construction. Point is, if you - as a tyre manufacturer - paint a massive arrow on the tyre to indicate intended rotation, surely the teams should respect that?

Same for same pressures and camber angles......

[zako85]

I'd be more than fine with that as well. It's one thing to push limits, but pushing limits that can put others in danger is a completely different thing.

I'd also be interested to know if Pirelli suggested the pressure changes or the teams just did it that quickly.

The issue is that punishments may be handed only when well established and enforced rules are broken. Now, "using tires exactly as recommended by the tire manufacturer" is almost certainly not one of the rules established and enforced by FIA.

[MarkJones]

It depends on for how long Pirelli have been making the tyres with assymetrical construction.

From the start - it seems the steel-belted tyres for 2013 have been marked for left and right sides. However the new kevlar-belted tyres are not. And Mercedes have admitted that they have been trying the rear tyres swapped around since Melbourne. In fact there's even been some speculation that Perelli got their sums wrong somehow and those tyres work better running in their opposite intended direction.

Anyway it seems this isn't a new thing at all, I remember Gary Anderson going on about Jordan doing the same thing back in that day. And Pirelli knew what was going on.

[jens]

The kerb may have been sharp and a contributing factor, but hardly the main reason or even an issue. Because many racing series throughout the years have raced there and there have been no problems. The only conclusion is that Pirelli cocked up massively, especially considering they have been to Silverstone in the last two seasons already, so should have some data. The main saving grace for them is that there is indeed no F1 testing, so they just do not know enough about their own (!) tyres.


I just don't understand this Pirelli bashing. They were asked to produce bad tires which spice up the racing and they did. Now they obviously made a big mistake like Michelin few years ago in America and will undoubtedly produce new safer tires very quickly. I understand that people are upset about tire failures but it seems to me that most of the criticism towards Pirelli on this forum actually tells us that they did a good job with the tires: they are unpredictable, difficult to make work, require skills from drivers etc.

FIA probably asked for a X number of pitstops and a recommended tyre wear rate. I do not know for sure, but probably there are hardly tyre experts in the FIA working group, who can design the proposed tyre. This one is up to Pirelli. But it is up to Pirelli to design a safe tyre, which matches the proposed parameters. Tyre blow-outs are hardly part of the "unpredictable racing" the governing body of the sport had in mind.

We shouldn't take away Pirelli's past achievements here. In 2011 and 2012 they did a good job. But for 2013 a clear mistake has been made and the tyres are seriously dangerous. We have had smaller issues on other circuits, but nevertheless issues. The 2013 tyres are supersensitive - you either have to lap very slowly and avoid any kind of battles with other cars; or you have to avoid kerbs; and even then you can't be sure about the tyre performance.

[SGWilko]

I've just heard - quite incredibly - on Sky FP1 coverage, Ant Davidson saying that teams used to even fiddle with tyre pressure gauges to hoodwink the tyre technicians in order to run lower pressures!

Teams therefore have NO right to say the tyres are unsafe. :down:

[jens]

I've just heard - quite incredibly - on Sky FP1 coverage, Ant Davidson saying that teams used to even fiddle with tyre pressure gauges to hoodwink the tyre technicians in order to run lower pressures!

Teams therefore have NO right to say the tyres are unsafe. :down:

Umm... But if technicians and F1 teams push to the limits with tyre pressures, it is not something they discovered at Silverstone 2013. It has been done throughout history. The problem is that usually there have been no problems with tyres, but now all of a sudden we had a monumental failure.

The problem is that Pirelli themselves just didn't know enough about their own tyres. They couldn't think of the consequences nor warn anybody convincingly. For teams it was business as usual until we started having regular monumental punctures.

There are rumours that Pirelli changed something in tyre construction before Silverstone, so there wouldn't be delaminations... well, there was something else instead. Whatever it is, but Pirelli doesn't leave an impression of knowing, what are they doing at the moment.

[RedBullian1]

I've just heard - quite incredibly - on Sky FP1 coverage, Ant Davidson saying that teams used to even fiddle with tyre pressure gauges to hoodwink the tyre technicians in order to run lower pressures!

Teams therefore have NO right to say the tyres are unsafe. :down:

I think it means they are terrified with the tires. We haven't had this problem in the past because the tire suppliers have been great and we haven't had these problems

[steveaki13]

The problem is that Pirelli themselves just didn't know enough about their own tyres. .



This is a problem, but without Testing on a variety of cars that are up to date I suppose its hard.
Answer is probably a bit more testing for Tyres companys.

[markabilly]

I'm seeing that the teams were running tyres on the opposite side than they should have, with outside guideline cambers and pressures. The same team's which voted down a change in construction. The FIA would not let representative cars be used for in season testing, yet Pirelli are getting most of the flack. Sure, they probably should have developed tyres with more tolerance, or been firmer or outside parameter usage, but for me the teams and the FIA are equally culpable.

Sent from North Korea using the dark network
well once again, as I previously pointed out, it is all about (1) not being able to do in season testing; and (2) Bernie's rules to ensure a "show" or spectacle for all :dozey: :dozey: Be careful what you ask for because you might get it--well so far, Bernie has gotten what he asked for, and F! gets more controversy to get more attention ....so I do not know what all the crying is all about Pirelli :confused: Now we have the boring German GP. No blown tires and suddenly some other teams are more competitive than before....oh my :s mokin:

[Knock-on]

Boring GP? I must have been watching the wrong race :D

[markabilly]

I think it means they are terrified with the tires. We haven't had this problem in the past because the tire suppliers have been great and we haven't had these problemsWrong, there have been problems like this, back when there was in season testing. Just not as bad, because they could test some more and fix it. But not now with the current rules

[markabilly]

Boring GP? I must have been watching the wrong race :D

okay, the last ten laps were interesting to me, but I am not the usual Bernie-type fan who wants big time excitement

[N4D13]

I think that they've done a good job with the tyre spec for the Nürburgring - for all I care, these tyres could be OK for the whole season. It was a good race with strategic variations and there was no massive tyre degradation - apart from the Mercedes' cars, which were back to their usual useless performance on a hot track.

[Tazio]

Pirelli have changed their tire selection to soft and medium for Hungary. This should bode well for Ferrari and Lotus. Vettel will most likely win however! :dozey:

[steveaki13]

I think I heard yesterday on radio Pirelli will think about their involvement in F1 if it is not run better.

Couldn't argue with that really. They are being made to look foolish for a variety of reasons (FIA and themselves) and are seemly thinking twice about it.

[DexDexter]

Pirelli have changed their tire selection to soft and medium for Hungary. This should bode well for Ferrari and Lotus. Vettel will most likely win however! :dozey:

At least we'll have a better race.

[Tazio]

True Dex', and the way things stand right now I think Lotus looks very good for this race, as indicators are pointing to very hot conditions. :bulb:

[airshifter]

Both Kimi and Roman are motivated, and the team seems to be coming together better. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Kimi for the win.

[henners88]

I think I heard yesterday on radio Pirelli will think about their involvement in F1 if it is not run better.

Couldn't argue with that really. They are being made to look foolish for a variety of reasons (FIA and themselves) and are seemly thinking twice about it.
If I was Hembrey I would have already announced their departure at the end of the current season. They've been made to look like complete fools by the FIA and wasted so much money trying to produce tyres on little to no testing in between GP's. Do Pirelli really need to be in F1? Not really.

[SGWilko]

And just reading some of the morons' comments on the Pirelli Sport FB page tells you all you need to know, not to mention Jezza Clarkson and his condom remark on Top Gear......

[markabilly]

Pirelli have changed their tire selection to soft and medium for Hungary. This should bode well for Ferrari and Lotus. Vettel will most likely win however! :dozey: I have to agree...his race to lose, no matter about the tires. But if the tires are not an issue and this "unfortunate" change continues, then poor Bernie will be forced to find some other way to screw things up and add to the "show" so he can give "the fans" (that term does not include the typical poster on this website) what he thinks that they want to generate publicity. :(

[wedge]

If I was Hembrey I would have already announced their departure at the end of the current season. They've been made to look like complete fools by the FIA and wasted so much money trying to produce tyres on little to no testing in between GP's. Do Pirelli really need to be in F1? Not really.

The rules should be changed regarding tyre compounds. Currently it can only be changed on safety grounds or teams vote but Pirelli should be allowed more freedom to change compounds.


Pirelli have changed their tire selection to soft and medium for Hungary. This should bode well for Ferrari and Lotus. Vettel will most likely win however! :dozey:

In Germany we had a 3-stopper - the sort of race Ferrari excelled this year but they were nowhere in terms of pace. This suggests to me their development have been very poor recently.

[Daniel]

The rules should be changed regarding tyre compounds. Currently it can only be changed on safety grounds or teams vote but Pirelli should be allowed more freedom to change compounds.



In Germany we had a 3-stopper - the sort of race Ferrari excelled this year but they were nowhere in terms of pace. This suggests to me their development have been very poor recently.

I've got a crazy idea, let Pirelli bring whatever tyres to the race, let them bring as many as they want and don't limit the teams to a number, then let the teams run however many of whatever tyres they want.

[wedge]

It is a crazy idea. We are in an era of cost cutting and tyres cost money.

Pat Symonds has admitted that tyre tests/free-for-all was a waste of time and resources. He would rather the testing program concentrated on his own car.

[Daniel]

It is a crazy idea. We are in an era of cost cutting and tyres cost money.

Pat Symonds has admitted that tyre tests/free-for-all was a waste of time and resources. He would rather the testing program concentrated on his own car.

IMHO the tyres are such a relatively small cost of the sport, you could go back to the old ways and it wouldn't hurt the teams in terms of money.

[Tazio]

In Germany we had a 3-stopper - the sort of race Ferrari excelled this year but they were nowhere in terms of pace. This suggests to me their development have been very poor recently.

I agree to some extent, and I’m not saying that Hungary will be Ferrari friendly. My point was that they would be much worse off against the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes with the harder compounds. I’m sorry if I was unclear in that matter. :bulb: I think that with the change of tires Ferrari will be closer to The Bulls and maybe even ahead of Mercedes in race trim, although that may be a bit of a stretch. Last year Pirelli brought the same compounds and this year these are softer, and the weather is expected to be hotter :bulb:

As for Germany; it is my understanding that they were caught out (as were other teams) with set-up due to higher temps than expected on race day, which induced over steer, the reason Felipe spun, and Fred first stint ended early (about lap 13) to adjust balance. That, in combination with the slow corners of "The Nube" pretty much did them in IMHO. :bulb:

[wedge]

IMHO the tyres are such a relatively small cost of the sport, you could go back to the old ways and it wouldn't hurt the teams in terms of money.

TBH I don't see being limited to sets of tyres is such a problem. It works well elsewhere and nor is it a common to hear teams complain about the availability of tyres.

Good tyres should allow strategy variation. Manufacturer should pull their finger out (Goodyear/Bridgestone) and not be hindered by regs (Pirelli).

IMHO F1 has far greater problems than how many tyres you can run.

[wedge]

I agree to some extent, and I’m not saying that Hungary will be Ferrari friendly. My point was that they would be much worse off against the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes with the harder compounds. I’m sorry if I was unclear in that matter. :bulb: I think that with the change of tires Ferrari will be closer to The Bulls and maybe even ahead of Mercedes in race trim, although that may be a bit of a stretch. Last year Pirelli brought the same compounds and this year these are softer, and the weather is expected to be hotter :bulb:

As for Germany; it is my understanding that they were caught out (as were other teams) with set-up due to higher temps than expected on race day, which induced over steer, the reason Felipe spun, and Fred first stint ended early (about lap 13) to adjust balance. That, in combination with the slow corners of "The Nube" pretty much did them in IMHO. :bulb:

Well the compounds are still softer than last year so we'll see how it works out in conjunction with the revised construction.

Regardless of handling issues Alonso admitted post-race that the pace of his car wasn't good enough BBC Sport - Ferrari's Fernando Alonso says team must start winning (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23219800)

[markabilly]

TBH I don't see being limited to sets of tyres is such a problem. It works well elsewhere and nor is it a common to hear teams complain about the availability of tyres.

Good tyres should allow strategy variation. Manufacturer should pull their finger out (Goodyear/Bridgestone) and not be hindered by regs (Pirelli).

IMHO F1 has far greater problems than how many tyres you can run.
or NOT be hindered by the absence of proper testing....unfortunately, it has come down to tire compounds and the car's ability to use that particular compound for determining the outcome

[Tazio]

Well the compounds are still softer than last year so we'll see how it works out in conjunction with the revised construction.

Regardless of handling issues Alonso admitted post-race that the pace of his car wasn't good enoughHe's been saying that all year. ;) The fact is strategy does play a huge role in the outcome of a race. To your point their developement does seem to have slowed compared to Red Bull and Merc. but I don't think it is from lack of effort, and with all the time, and the testing before the next race things could easily improve for them or any team for that matter. :bulb:

[DexDexter]

I've got a crazy idea, let Pirelli bring whatever tyres to the race, let them bring as many as they want and don't limit the teams to a number, then let the teams run however many of whatever tyres they want.

That would be cool, two cars with wings would disappear into the distance like in the good old days. We'd have a normal Hungarian GP.

[Daniel]

That would be cool, two cars with wings would disappear into the distance like in the good old days. We'd have a normal Hungarian GP.

I think you're getting confused between Ferrari and Red Bull, but thanks for your contribution :)