Team-mate battles of 2013

[jens]

Didn't find such thread after a quick glance. Last year we had some discussions and conclusions as well. Now the new season is about to begin. Which are going to be the most exciting battles and which ones the most one-sided?

Red Bull: Well, Webber seems to have entered the „Barrichello territory“ with his career already, when you almost surely expect him to get left behind by his multiple-WDC team-mate, because it simply always happens. The main question is whether he can again actually keep up with Vettel for half a season or will he get left behind early this time like in 2011?

Ferrari: Same story here, you'd naturally expect Massa to get beaten. But will he collect more or less than 50% of Alonso's points? Because based on three past seasons this would be the rough figure about how their seasons would pan out.

McLaren: A more exciting duel. Button starts out as a natural favourite. It is unclear, how fast can Pérez be, but unless he happens to be not only a fast, but a very complete driver this year, you'd expect the very experienced Englishman to collect more points with his usual smart racing and consistent scoring.

Lotus: Another pairing of a consistent world champion and an erratic younger driver. You'd expect Grosjean to crash less this time (it would be pretty bad if he didn't!), but nonetheless he leaves an aura of an erratic driver, who you'd expect to be less consistent than Räikkönen, even if points-wise it could be closer this year.

Mercedes: Rosberg's big moment of truth. Allegedly he avoided joining Hamilton at McLaren in 2008, but this time it didn't work out. Can he rise to the occasion and prove to be another top driver on the grid or will his career descend into another Barrichello/Coulthard/Webber-style career – racing alongside a top driver for many years, but always getting left behind?

Sauber: I am afraid this could be one of the most one-sided battles. I hold Hülkenberg's skills in high esteem and based on what I have seen, Gutiérrez leaves an impression of an erratic driver, even though he can be fast at times. Even more so this is Mexican's rookie season.

Force India: In contrast should be one of the closest battles, a re-match of 2011. A crucial year for both drivers, because getting beaten is likely to end a career here.

Williams: Another interesting battle. Maldonado is fast, he showed that alongside Barrichello and last year, when he qualified into top3 on four occasions. But this is not enough if you are struggling to get to the chequered flag. What can Bottas do? Can he impress enough like his compatriot Räikkönen did dozen years ago and become an object of interest for top teams even in his debut season? I think this year can potentially put big pressure on Maldonado especially if there is a driver fast enough to qualify as high as he does. And in such tense battle I'd expect Bottas to edge ahead (mentally as well), like Kovalainen edged Fisichella in 2007.

Toro Rosso. 2012 was inconclusive. Vergne scored more points with some very good results (especially in the wet), but Ricciardo seemed a tad more consistent and a better qualifier. A crucial year for both and crucial to have a good car as well to showcase skills.

Caterham: Little between them, but would expect Pic to be slightly better as he is younger with more long-term potential.

Marussia: Despite testing disadvantage I expect Bianchi to get the better of the two. Actually I think Bianchi may well be the best driver of the backmarker bunch.

[EuroTroll]

For me, the team-mate battles at Mercedes and Williams are the most interesting.

Mercedes:
This is the first season when Rosberg can be directly compared to a top driver in his prime. I think we will see him come out of this comparison with his head held high. I do think NR is a top driver himself, and he will prove that this season. I'm willing to bet my signature that Nico will outscore Lewis this season. Any takers? ;)

Williams:
Maldonado is quick, but Bottas could turn out to be quicker. Possibly another Finnish star in the making. Will he be consistent in the races, though? That is the question. It will be very interesting to watch his progress.

Otherwise, I think:
- Vettel >> Webber
- Alonso >> Massa
- Button = Perez
- Räikkönen > Grosjean
- Hülkenberg >> Gutierrez
- Sutil > di Resta
- Vergne = Ricciardo
- Pic > van der Garde
- Bianchi >> Chilton

[rjbetty]

Brilliant post Jens. Well done for posting this thread. I was waiting for someone to do so. :)

Here are my choices for 2013

Red Bull: Sebastian Vettel - Will only keep getting better while Webber looks like he's past his best, and is basically admitting as much (it may be that he doesn't even realise that)

Ferrari: Fernando Alonso - Though I think Massa can very VERY well score more than 50% of Alonso's points total: He easily managed to do so in the second half of last year where he achieved 80% IIRC.

McLaren: Jenson Button - I think Perez will seriously cause him problems at times, and may surprise with his raw speed, but other times will be too inconsistent and may crash, so overall Jenson's experience will win through.

Lotus: Kimi Raikkonen - Kimi's WRC absence seemed to disadvantage him more in 2012 than Grosjean's semi-rookie status, given the way that it was the Iceman who was the one to come on as the season wore on. He should carry this momentum and beat Grosjean on points, and maybe also now be ahead in qualifying too.

Mercedes: Lewis Hamilton - though if the car is really that strong that it can be an outsider for the title, Rosberg's performances, races included, may very well spike. On his best form, he could get much closer than expected to a Hamilton who needs to fully settle in. But I just cannot see Ham being beaten fair and square (only if he were to beat himself as in 2011 - don't see it happening)

Sauber: Nico Hulkenberg - no contest. It could be like Villeneuve and Zonta in 1999, though I don't Esteban will be that bad.

Force India: Paul di Resta - I expect Paul to win this one with an ease that will surprise people. Sutil did indeed outpoint and outqualify him in 2011, but the obvious reason is that it was only Paul's first year while it was Sutil's 5th... Paul has since improved and will now be ahead of Adrian, though it should still be fairly close; no more than a couple of tenths in it I'd say.

Williams: Pastor Maldonado - A tough one, can Bottas really do a Kovalainen on Pastor? That would seriously impress me. I am keeping expectations in check and thought Valtteri may trail Maldonado by +0.4sec, but I really don't know. I just recall 2010 with Hulkenberg, and how amazingly my prediction turned out exactly true.* I'm guessing Maldonado's experience will win through, though I can see him going off the rails if Bottas beats him.

*In fact, basically every single of my 2010 predictions did, almost to perfection, which is absurdly bizarre yet amazingly true... Never been able to replicate it since.

Toro Rosso: Daniel Ricciardo - I'm just guessing. Dan had half a season's experience over JEV, but the gulf in qualifying cannot be accounted for just on that. Really hoping you get that podium Dan.

Caterham: Charles Pic - I'm a bit surprised people are expecting it to be so close, since for one thing Pic has a year's experience. I'm not sure he's quite as good as Pic anyway, so a fairly easy win for Charles.

Marussia: Jules Bianchi - Should perform at least as well as Pic, probably a little better maybe. I think this will be enough to see off Chilton well.

[jens]

Williams: Pastor Maldonado - A tough one, can Bottas really do a Kovalainen on Pastor? That would seriously impress me. I am keeping expectations in check and thought Valtteri may trail Maldonado by +0.4sec, but I really don't know. I just recall 2010 with Hulkenberg, and how amazingly my prediction turned out exactly true.* I'm guessing Maldonado's experience will win through, though I can see him going off the rails if Bottas beats him.


Williams is indeed quite tricky. Actually I do expect Maldonado to be slightly faster in qualifying trim. But based on last year, Maldonado's racing is anything but consistent. And I expect Bottas to be close enough to Maldonado to capitalize on any off-form the Venezuelan might have.

I think Pastor was overconfident last year, because Senna was so far off him (especially in qualifying) that he didn't really have proper competition. So he could keep making mistakes and still look decent and confident. In 2011 he didn't have any expectations and any time he was close to Barrichello, it looked good - "not bad for a paydriver".

But now Pastor is a team leader and if Bottas is really good, Maldonado has only one option - raise his game and get rid of lack of awareness in racing, if he still wants to come out of this season looking like a decent promising driver. It is a new task for him. I am not convinced Pastor has the mentality to really improve to a level of being a properly complete driver, but maybe he proves me wrong.

Maldonado is fast, but I suspect he was made look better by Senna last year. For all the speed he has, I don't think he is a top driver in the making or can match them in the same team. And getting shown up by a young hotshot can have a negative consequence. In contrast Grosjean has sort of gone through "hell" by now. He was paired with a really good driver in 2012, struggled to match him consistently, made mistakes and as a result looked a bit embarrassing by the end of the season. But Grosjean has gone through that bad patch by now, he has had time to reflect on the experience of racing alongside a top driver and can improve this season. Maldonado is yet to go through this.

[steveaki13]

Red Bull - I think Seb will dominate this battle with almost 2011 preportions. He has had such an advantage over Mark in previous years, you just cant see any other outcome. From Marks point of view he needs a couple of wins and see if he can get a decent run going and too see what can happen.

Ferrari - I hope to see Felipe continue his late 2012 form and help back up Alonso, however I fear a similar story to last season. As for Fernando he will lose out too. Last year had Felipe been up with him, he may have taken some vital points from Vettel.

Mclaren - A key year for Jenson. I think he will be typical Jenson. He will collect points and win a couple of races at least, if its a decent car he could challenge for the title. He has this one season to be a clear number 1 and he needs to beat Perez. If Sergio beats him reguarlyI think Jensons career will approach the end.

Lotus- I think Grosjean will still make a lot of unforced errors and fancy Kimi will beat him much easier this season. Can Kimi move up after his win last year? Who knows but if he can win a couple of Races he may launch a championship push.

Mercedes - This should be very interesting, as many have said a few times If Nico can match Lewis some times then we may finally know that Nico is a top line driver. Until now he has beaten only poor team mates at Williams on the whole and only edged out an old Champion maybe past his best in Schumi.
This is his big year. A chance to beat a driver we all know as one of the fastest

Williams - I think Bottas will be the better driver in the long term, will he manage it this season. Who knows, but I can see him movig ahead during the season.

Sauber - Nico Hulkenberg should beat Gutierrez easily I think.

Force India - If Paul loses out to Slash, then his career will halt, but if he can soundly beat him he may still have a chance of a better drive somewhere.

A key year for di Resta. 3 seasons of good and bad. He needs to step it up.

Toro Rosso - A solid pair but not much that is going to bother teams ahead. Ricciardo should come out ahead.

Caterham - Pic has that one season experience and I think he will win the second division, although Van Der Garde should put in some OK performances. Caterham need signs of improvement.

Marussia - I see Chilton as battlig just to start 21st, but I hope he keeps battling away and works hard, but I see Bianchi winning the battle, but can they challenge or beat Caterham

Those are my toughts

[keysersoze]

Vettel>Webber, the usual gap
Alonso>Massa, not close but closer than last season
Button>Perez, but Sergio will acquit himself well
Hamilton>Rosberg, Sorry, but LH is one of the all-time greats
Grosjean>Raikonnen, lots of respect for Kimi, but RG is one quick mo-fo
Sutil=di Resta, not brave enough to call this one
Hulkenberg>Gutierrez, though the Mexican will have some encouraging moments
Vergne>Ricciardo, though neither will do anything to prove they deserve a promotion
Pic>van der Garde
Bianchi>Chilton, but Max isn't as bad as we think

And drum roll:

Pastor>Bottas, Maldonado made a believer out of me last year, and I see this as a decisive win for the Venezuelan.

[Koz]

RedBull - > Vettel dominates as usualy.

McLaren -> Perez will do well, but Button will be more consistent ant, and will walk away with more points.

Ferrari -> Alonso will beat Massa, but Massa will be within 80% of the points. Prepare for more whining from Alonso.

Lotus -> Grosjean will be faster than Kimi, especially in qualifying. Kimi's experience will shine through.

Mercedes -> Lewis will throughly thrash Rosberg, unless he loses his head - which he will if the car isn't great.

Sauber -> The Hulk all the way. Esteban is a little too inexperienced.

FI -> Sutil should be better, slightly.

TR -> Could go either way.

Williams -> The Pastor will be faster, but still an idiot. Bottas will be much more consistent.

[rjbetty]

I'm really surprised at how much people are rating Sutil above di Resta. As I see it, Sutil beat him in 2011 due to having more experience, while it was only Paul's first year. With 2 seasons experience behind him, I expect him to now have the measure of Sutil, especially as Adrian has been out for a year.

[millencolin]

The only one I will be really focusing on is the Toro Rosso battle. If one driver beats the other big time, they will have a future in this sport while the loser will be banished. But if it is inconclusive like last year, I think Red Bull will ditched both of them and bring in the next two candidates for F1.

[jens]

I'm really surprised at how much people are rating Sutil above di Resta. As I see it, Sutil beat him in 2011 due to having more experience, while it was only Paul's first year. With 2 seasons experience behind him, I expect him to now have the measure of Sutil, especially as Adrian has been out for a year.

Well, in 2012 di Resta wasn't a rookie any more and even though he started out well, faded in late season. So he really needs to keep up his performance level to come out on top. I don't think there is much difference between the overall ability of di Resta and Sutil. Both are very solid, pretty good drivers. So a lot will depend on momentary form of either driver.

[rjbetty]

Red Bull: It appears that Vettel leads the way here

Ferrari: Massa does indeed look back on form and has outqualified Alonso 2-0 so far! Needs to fight a psychological battle that Alonso is going to wage, and needs to try and finish ahead in the races.

McLaren: Button leads qualifying, but we will see how Perez compares in the race tomorrow - he seemed quicker on Sunday in Melbourne.

Lotus: Kimi all the way

Mercedes: Despite good pace from Rosberg he has been outqualified by Hamilton twice. That probably goes for races too.

Sauber: Hulkenberg by a mile

Williams: It looks like Bottas could pose a real challenge after all

Toro Rosso: Vergne looks stronger so far, 1-1 in quali, but JEV was on course for points in Oz, but Ricciardo was nowhere, though he had car problems.

Caterham: Pic

Marussia: Bianchi looks like impressively taking this one easily, and may be on for a points finish sometime!

[jens]

Every race is unique with its own set of circumstances and how the results are going to be played out, so I think we have got a bit of a too small sample size at the moment to find any long-term tendencies.

However, among new match-ups this year it has to be said Mercedes has been very close indeed so far. And even if qualifying has been 2-0 in Hamilton's favour, it has been close in changing conditions and you get the feeling it could go either way. I am glad Rosberg has had the pace in the wet too so far this year. We will see, what develops out of this over a full season.

I also see, how Force India had a dilemma before the season whether to hire Sutil or Bianchi, because evidently both drivers have been going well so far!

[P3ws]

FA should now play as supportive as Massa does when down on points, yes?

[donKey jote]

No. He should support him fully and not just play whinging also ran like Massa does when down on points. :vader: :p

[pino]

FA should now play as supportive as Massa does when down on points, yes?

Season has just started and as much as I like Massa, Alonso he's a better and faster driver IMHO, so let's just wait a couple of more races...

[truefan72]

Season has just started and as much as I like Massa, Alonso he's a better and faster driver IMHO, so let's just wait a couple of more races...

I'll be patient Pino, but I'm not holding my breath, because in 2010 RBR could have supported Webber, but chose to "let them go for it"
and vettel won. (tbh webber lost it in Korea tbh. if he had kept his car on track, i think RBR would have been in a much tougher position)
Now if Massa is still ahead of alonso by the time we hit the final fly aways. I'll be shocked if Alonso would support Massa. I think there will be friction in the team and problems.
We will just have to wait and see if alonso has matured from 2007 and prior when he used to go crazy when fisi did better than him.

Khi ch?n mua d?ng c? gia dình phòng b?p, ngoÃ*i công d?ng, ki?u dáng, mÃ*u s?c cung lÃ* y?u t? quan tr?ng. B?i d?ng c? gia dình luôn chi?m t? l? khá l?n trong b?t c? không gian sinh ho?t nÃ*o trong nhÃ*. B?i v?y, mÃ*u s?c c?a phòng b?p dòi h?i có d?c trung s?ch s?, kÃ*ch thÃ*ch c?m giác thèm an vÃ* sinh d?ng. D?ng th?i, toÃ*n b? quá trình gia công n?u nu?ng thu?ng có liên quan v?i vi?c n?u an sau dó, nên yêu c?u môi tru?ng không gian quanh phòng b?p ph?i có s?c thái vui tuoi.

[keysersoze]

Khi ch?n mua d?ng c? gia dình phòng b?p, ngoÃ*i công d?ng, ki?u dáng, mÃ*u s?c cung lÃ* y?u t? quan tr?ng. B?i d?ng c? gia dình luôn chi?m t? l? khá l?n trong b?t c? không gian sinh ho?t nÃ*o trong nhÃ*. B?i v?y, mÃ*u s?c c?a phòng b?p dòi h?i có d?c trung s?ch s?, kÃ*ch thÃ*ch c?m giác thèm an vÃ* sinh d?ng. D?ng th?i, toÃ*n b? quá trình gia công n?u nu?ng thu?ng có liên quan v?i vi?c n?u an sau dó, nên yêu c?u môi tru?ng không gian quanh phòng b?p ph?i có s?c thái vui tuoi.

I didn't recognize any drivers' names in this post. :D

[jens]

So the first leg of the championship has been completed. More than 1/5th of the season gone, we can make the first overview. Especially as European season has occasionally brought some shifts in performances, either among teams or also drivers. Sometimes it has been noticed that rookie drivers can up their game after settling in their teams and getting back to circuits they actually know. Also I remember, how in 2010 Webber re-started his championship-challenging campaign in Europe after disappointing flyaway races as he was only 8th in the championship.

It looks like tyres have been hard to adapt to this year, so we have seen some significant gaps between team-mates. Famously we had drivers from five different teams in the Top5 in China with Ricciardo and di Resta making it seven different teams represented in Top8. We also have four different teams represented at the top of the current drivers championship standings. As we remember, last year ended exactly like that (with the same four drivers, but with Hamilton driving for McLaren) – will it be like that again?

I think one could expect some of the gaps to close a bit – but which ones and by how much? And can someone completely turn their game around and come out on top despite a current deficit? In the past we have seen this being the case too. In 2007 Räikkönen was trailing Massa after 4 races, in 2008 it was the other way around – in both seasons the tables turned.

Vettel v Webber – in all seasons they have been together so far, Vettel has been in front after 4 races, so obviously he feels comfortable there, while some of the European circuits suit Webber well. However, current gap is more reminiscent of 2011 rather than 2010/12. Webber has had more unluck as well, but it is a tall order for him to come back from there (32 v 77). It's gonna be a damage limitation in his final (?) season.

Räikkönen v Grosjean – Kimi has been consistently on pace this year, while Grosjean has been doing well only in half of the races. Significant deficit (26 v 67), gonna be a damage limitation and effort to get more than 50% of Kimi's points as well.

Alonso v Massa – Alonso's seasons are usually metronomically consistent, but due to different reasons he has had two low-scoring races already, so Massa looks uncharacteristically close. Massa isn't too far behind (30 v 47), but would expect Alonso to pull away once he gets a string of consistent results.

Hamilton v Rosberg – Obviously they are closer than the points indicate as Nico has had a fair amount of sheer unluck. A points deficit, which is difficult to overcome, but percentage-wise Nico has plenty of room for improvement. Interesting that Hamilton has had an identical start to the season Rosberg himself had in 2010 (2x3rd and 2x5th) – can Mercedes keep it up this time?

Button v Pérez – due to Button's unluck in Malaysia points are closer than their overall performance suggests. However, with a strong drive in Bahrain Pérez has put himself back in the picture and isn't far behind. Can he keep up with Button from now onwards and give a run for his money? (13 v 10 currently)

di Resta v Sutil – another battle, where the point-score has been inflated by the amount of fortune (20 v 6). One would say that both drivers have been performing close so far this year. By the way, I have noticed di Resta had a strong start into the season in 2011 and '12 as well. Can he keep it up this time, can Sutil fight back?

Ricciardo v Vergne – Ricciardo had a standout drive in China, which has turned the tables in his favour at the moment. Vergne must pray for wet races, he looks strong there. But Ricciardo looks consistently more convincing in qualifying, which is playing the game in his favour.

Hülkenberg v Gutiérrez – point standings do not indicate it, but they have pretty much been performing in different leagues so far. For Guti it is all about becoming a competitive F1 driver from now onwards. For Hulk – well, he just better hope the Sauber improves.

Maldonado v Bottas – finally in Bahrain Maldonado actually had a decent race and almost finished in the points. Before that the Finnish rookie was more impressive. What is going to happen from now onwards? Hard to tell. Bottas should improve, but so should the enigmatic Pastor once he is comfortable in the car.

Bianchi v Chilton – Chilton, who had more experience in the car before the season, has been so clearly left behind that you don't see many chances for him. Simply the matter of difference in class (like Alonso-Marques back in the day) – while we are waiting, when will Bianchi get an opportunity in a better team, we are waiting, how long can Chilton hang onto any kind of F1 drive.

Pic v van der Garde – Team-mates in GP2 in 2011 were back then closely matched, but right now the Frenchman is well ahead. Obviously aided by the extra year of experience in F1, but also his youth as he has more room for improvement. Vd Garde should get closer, but will still be left behind overall.

[keysersoze]

Spot on Jens, as usual.

[A FONDO]

I will continue to follow the outcome of Lotus's and Mclaren's team battles. Will the eager guys beat the conservative dinosaurs?
Others are either already decided or out of interest.

[henners88]

Hamilton v Rosberg – Obviously they are closer than the points indicate as Nico has had a fair amount of sheer unluck. A points deficit, which is difficult to overcome, but percentage-wise Nico has plenty of room for improvement. Interesting that Hamilton has had an identical start to the season Rosberg himself had in 2010 (2x3rd and 2x5th) – can Mercedes keep it up this time?
I totally agree with what you are saying here but can't help but think back to your recent comments about Hamilton's misfortune in 2012. He experienced so much bad luck it brought Button well within reach in the points, to which many justified it as meaning they were very close in ability across that season. At the end of the day we can see Rosberg is very talented and IMHO will run Hamilton closer than Button ever did. This all comes down to luck though. If either driver runs into bad luck over multiple races where the other doesn't, do we still claim the one with the good luck ran the other close? If Rosberg consistently out qualifies Hamilton and retires from positions ahead of him in the race, therefore meaning Lewis remains close in terms of points, I will happily say Rosberg performed better by the end of the season. It all comes down to how forgiving we can be when excusing bad luck. :)

[AndyL]

I totally agree with what you are saying here but can't help but think back to your recent comments about Hamilton's misfortune in 2012. He experienced so much bad luck it brought Button well within reach in the points, to which many justified it as meaning they were very close in ability across that season. At the end of the day we can see Rosberg is very talented and IMHO will run Hamilton closer than Button ever did. This all comes down to luck though. If either driver runs into bad luck over multiple races where the other doesn't, do we still claim the one with the good luck ran the other close? If Rosberg consistently out qualifies Hamilton and retires from positions ahead of him in the race, therefore meaning Lewis remains close in terms of points, I will happily say Rosberg performed better by the end of the season. It all comes down to how forgiving we can be when excusing bad luck. :)

Hopefully they will remain team-mates for 3 years or so, so that things have time to even out and we can read a long-term trend. Seems likely given that they are friends and it's hard to see an ambitious team wanting to get rid of either. I'd predict similar to what we saw at McLaren, Hamilton by a narrow margin.

[henners88]

Hopefully they will remain team-mates for 3 years or so, so that things have time to even out and we can read a long-term trend. Seems likely given that they are friends and it's hard to see an ambitious team wanting to get rid of either. I'd predict similar to what we saw at McLaren, Hamilton by a narrow margin.
I think the same but hopefully it'll be narrow where both drivers can be compared with points telling the true story over the period, if you know what I mean. I'd rather the comparison be between two drivers closely matched in ability rather than what we had at McLaren. I think Rosberg is capable of running Hamilton close on pure performance.

[msratings]

Pretty much spot on there....I cant really see any of the current inter-team battles changing in the next few races. Would be nice to see the rookies make ground as they get more used to F1. Some of the drivers could do with having same packages as their team mates as well as Grosjean and Van Der Garde have both missed out so far. Though Grosjean did get new chassis for Bahrain

[Knock-on]

Im not sure. Nico is no mug and anyone that embarrasses Schumacher each year is obviously a top driver. However, i predict the points gap will finish with Nico on 75% or less than Lewis

[faster69]

he hardly embarrassed schumacher. they were pretty much even in 2012 (slight edge to schumacher i think) if you look at qualifying head to head and the head to head for races finished. schumacher had horrendous reliability last season.

hamilton is in his peak years right now and is paid by mercedes to get a pole position like nico did.

[Knock-on]

he hardly embarrassed schumacher. they were pretty much even in 2012 (slight edge to schumacher i think) if you look at qualifying head to head and the head to head for races finished. schumacher had horrendous reliability last season.

hamilton is in his peak years right now and is paid by mercedes to get a pole position like nico did.

Look, you might dream with technicolour glasses on but I live in the real world. I am basing my statement on 36 months of race results. We are not going back nd examining each individual race over 3 years but the points at the end of the year. If not, you will need to look back at the entire Schumacher record and where he was supported by his tem mate or they 'moved aside', where he had preferential treatment, where his team mates broke down but he has amazing reliability (sound like Red Bull ;) ), had illegal equipment, crshed into competitos to win Championships etc, etc, etc.

Points over a 3 year period are enough and a 7 times champion who according to some people could take a Minardi and win the Championship was beaten in 3 consecutive years. The record stands:

2012 - 93 points to 49
2011 - 89 points to 76
2010 - 142 points to 72

This was the first time in a long time that Schumy was on an even playing field in a team and The Messiah got thrashed by someone I consider to be a fast but not exceptional driver.

To a 7 Times WDC, that's embarrassing.

[Knock-on]

he hardly embarrassed schumacher. they were pretty much even in 2012 (slight edge to schumacher i think) if you look at qualifying head to head and the head to head for races finished. schumacher had horrendous reliability last season.

hamilton is in his peak years right now and is paid by mercedes to get a pole position like nico did.

Look, you might dream with technicolour glasses on but I live in the real world. I am basing my statement on 36 months of race results. We are not going back nd examining each individual race over 3 years but the points at the end of the year. If not, you will need to look back at the entire Schumacher record and where he was supported by his tem mate or they 'moved aside', where he had preferential treatment, where his team mates broke down but he has amazing reliability (sound like Red Bull ;) ), had illegal equipment, crshed into competitos to win Championships etc, etc, etc.

Points over a 3 year period are enough and a 7 times champion who according to some people could take a Minardi and win the Championship was beaten in 3 consecutive years. The record stands:

2012 - 93 points to 49
2011 - 89 points to 76
2010 - 142 points to 72

This was the first time in a long time that Schumy was on an even playing field in a team and The Messiah got thrashed by someone I consider to be a fast but not exceptional driver.

To a 7 Times WDC, that's embarrassing.

[i_max2k2]

Look, you might dream with technicolour glasses on but I live in the real world. I am basing my statement on 36 months of race results. We are not going back nd examining each individual race over 3 years but the points at the end of the year. If not, you will need to look back at the entire Schumacher record and where he was supported by his tem mate or they 'moved aside', where he had preferential treatment, where his team mates broke down but he has amazing reliability (sound like Red Bull ;) ), had illegal equipment, crshed into competitos to win Championships etc, etc, etc.

Points over a 3 year period are enough and a 7 times champion who according to some people could take a Minardi and win the Championship was beaten in 3 consecutive years. The record stands:

2012 - 93 points to 49
2011 - 89 points to 76
2010 - 142 points to 72

This was the first time in a long time that Schumy was on an even playing field in a team and The Messiah got thrashed by someone I consider to be a fast but not exceptional driver.

To a 7 Times WDC, that's embarrassing.

Obviously you're also wearing some technicolor glasses with the way you paint Schumacher. In all fairness, at the end we all realized Schumacher was past his prime. The lack of reliability from Mercedes and/or incidents in a race hurt his chances more then anything else did. To me a fair comparison would be how they performed in a race when both had a incident free and reliable race, that of course happens less, but I'm sure most would agree with me, that Schumacher overall was comparable with Nico over the last 2yrs for sure.

And for his performances in his peek i.e. 2006 and before you can read some Facts here -

How Great Was Michael Schumacher? ~ F1 Revs (http://www.f1revs.com/2012/10/how-great-was-michael-schumacher.html)


To give an idea of Michael Schumacher's incredible talent, in the 10 years from his first full season in 1992 to the end of the 2001 season before qualifying went into idiotic format, the average difference between him and his teammate was a massive 1.090s. The head to head qualifying battle between him and the only other person in the same car was a ridiculous 150-8 hammering over that same 10 year period. Schumacher's average grid spot was 2.7, his teammates 7.5.

To give the stats some more context, Schumacher out-qualified every team-mate he had at every grand prix from the end of the 1991 season until the start of the 1996 season, with the exception of the 1995 Belgian GP when it started to rain and Schumacher hadn’t set a lap in the dry. Incidentally that weekend he qualified 15th and still went on to win the race in typically spectacular Spa wet weather driving fashion.

From Schumacher's first full season in 1992 to his first retirement in 2006 his race head to head with teammates was a staggering 113-23 in races both finished. Average finish position for Schumacher was 2.5 and for his teammates 5.2 over that same 15 year period.


For some more facts here is his final tally - 91 GP wins, 7 WDC's and 68 pole positions, the last part is just so you can see some REAL numbers ;)

[henners88]

Obviously you're also wearing some technicolor glasses with the way you paint Schumacher. In all fairness, at the end we all realized Schumacher was past his prime. The lack of reliability from Mercedes and/or incidents in a race hurt his chances more then anything else did. To me a fair comparison would be how they performed in a race when both had a incident free and reliable race, that of course happens less, but I'm sure most would agree with me, that Schumacher overall was comparable with Nico over the last 2yrs for sure.
Ignoring his first career which was the best any driver has achieved, I can't say I agree he was comparable to Nico over the last two years. Then again it depends on how you interpret comparable? Comparable in a way he matched Nico or comparable in a way he was obviously past his prime and Nico came out on top? Its true he suffered perhaps more mechanical issues than Nico, but then again having watched every race in this period I tend to remember the races for what they are rather than looking at a points tally. Overall points rarely tell the full story regardless of which driver you are comparing. Schumacher made an awful lot of mistakes in his second career. Mistakes many of us know he wouldn't have made first time around. Silly uncharacteristic crashes and tangles, and its these that often had me wondering whether it was a good idea coming back. There were occasions where he out drove Nico, but this was rare and raw qualifying pace often lacked.

My summary of his second career was that he made a big mistake coming back. He hid his disappointment by claiming he was just having fun and wouldn't be driving if he thought he didn't still have it. Unfortunately I think we saw glimpses of the Schumacher of old, but we also saw a driver way past his prime trying to keep up with guys 20 years younger most of the time. You can't take his stats away from him and he'll always be a legend, but I think he either should have continued a couple more years after 2006, or stay retired with his reputation less dented.

[faster69]

you actually have to watch the races, you can't just copy and paste where they finished in the championship.

schumacher had the worst luck of anyone last year except maybe hamilton. the split the difference in qualifying head to head and in races where they both finished.

[Knock-on]

I'm not going to get into a arguement with a Schumacher fan. I've given up wasting oxygen doing that.

All I will say is that it's hypocritical and foolish to go on about him being the best of all time because he scored more points than anyone else in 7 years but then when he's beaten over a 3 year period by his team mate, it's not down to Schumacher but bad luck.

Head... Brick... Wall... Banging.

[dj_bytedisaster]

My summary of his second career was that he made a big mistake coming back. He hid his disappointment by claiming he was just having fun and wouldn't be driving if he thought he didn't still have it. Unfortunately I think we saw glimpses of the Schumacher of old, but we also saw a driver way past his prime trying to keep up with guys 20 years younger most of the time. You can't take his stats away from him and he'll always be a legend, but I think he either should have continued a couple more years after 2006, or stay retired with his reputation less dented.

I don't think that Michael was so awfully far past his prime. Just look at the man, he's fit and looks like someone in the early thirties, rather than one, who's next milestone will be 50. What killed him was, that he was robbed of what made him such an outstanding driver in his first career - testing.
In his earlier career, he put in ridiculous mileage every year, incessantly testing until the car was exactly like he wanted it to be. He knew those beasts inside out. The Mercedes cars he came back to, were utter crapboxes, just like most cars that Loic Bigois designed and he got nearly no testing mileage, so he never could make the best of them.

Another thing that gets overlooked. When he retired, F1 cars were still on those ridiulous groove tires, but still looked like real F1 cars instead of the step-nosed fugly contraptions with puny rear-wings and snow-plow front wings. That's why you can't compare Schumacher and Raikkonen for instance. The two years that Kimi was crashing rally cars into trees, the cars didn't change much, while Schumachers last Ferrari and his first Merc were worlds apart and he didn't have the unlimited testing time anymore to adapt to it. It says a lot that despite his age, Schumacher improved over his 3 years at Merc. His last year was IMHO his best in the Merc.

[webberf1]

Dj Byte makes some good points there. Schu was not as horribly outgunned as some critics make it out to have been. There were a number of factors preventing him from reaching his potential.

[Knock-on]

Its a level playing field now.

[essie]

it is definately a seriously exciting year for the f1 family and fans roll on the next round :)

[vhatever]

Its a level playing field now.


Wow, so that must make vettel the greatest f1 driver forever and ever.

[Knock-on]

No, it makes the Red Bull package with Vettel managing that package on the track the best out there by a mile.

Do you honestly think that if Fred or Lewis were in Webbers car that Seb would win? :crazy:

[Mia 01]

Theres no battle in the Ferrari and Mercedes team.

[vhatever]

No, it makes the Red Bull package with Vettel managing that package on the track the best out there by a mile.

Do you honestly think that if Fred or Lewis were in Webbers car that Seb would win? :crazy:


Considering Fred and Lewy had enough problems beating their own teammates i don't imaigne it would bother vettel one bit.

[dj_bytedisaster]

No, it makes the Red Bull package with Vettel managing that package on the track the best out there by a mile.

Do you honestly think that if Fred or Lewis were in Webbers car that Seb would win? :crazy:

Yes he would. Vettel spent 3 years in that car and knows it inside out. Fernando or Lewis coming over would find themselves in a car they don't know and with no testing allowed they wouldn't have the time to get to know it. As was proven by the late season update last year, the RB is tailor made to fit Vettel's preferences. That would seriously stunt Fernando and Lewis. Can we please stop talking drivers down because we don't like them? Vettel, Alonso, Kimi and Lewis are top-notch drivers in the cars they're currently in - let's leave it that hat.

[webberf1]

Well vhatever, you might want to also consider how much trouble Vettel had beating Webber in 2010. Just sayin'.
Either that or quit the trolling.

[jens]

I totally agree with what you are saying here but can't help but think back to your recent comments about Hamilton's misfortune in 2012. He experienced so much bad luck it brought Button well within reach in the points, to which many justified it as meaning they were very close in ability across that season.

Oh I noticed you had answered me. I don't know, which comments you meant, but I certainly do think Hamilton was much more superior to Button in 2012 than the point standings show.

So Rosberg has had two poles in a row. Early in the season the question was asked - can he learn to untap his speed and deliver in Q3? He has done that recently. Now the question is how consistently he can do that and how much more is Hamilton going to blend into the Mercedes team. But there are of course no guarantees. Button started in 2010 in McLaren with two race wins and a championship lead. But he wasn't going to get more impressive than that later on after further 'settling into the team'.

[A FONDO]

two poles :o

Formula 1® - The Official F1® Website (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/)

...
4 Lewis Hamilton British Mercedes 50
....
....
9 Nico Rosberg German Mercedes 22
...

[zako85]

Yes he would. Vettel spent 3 years in that car and knows it inside out. Fernando or Lewis coming over would find themselves in a car they don't know and with no testing allowed they wouldn't have the time to get to know it. As was proven by the late season update last year, the RB is tailor made to fit Vettel's preferences. That would seriously stunt Fernando and Lewis. Can we please stop talking drivers down because we don't like them? Vettel, Alonso, Kimi and Lewis are top-notch drivers in the cars they're currently in - let's leave it that hat.

It didn't take Kimi long to adjust to a new car in 2012.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It didn't take Kimi long to adjust to a new car in 2012.

It did. Kimi was very consistent, but not spectacular in 2012. Also, he had pre-season testing to get the hang of the car and the cars haven't changed much since he had left F1.

[henners88]

It did. Kimi was very consistent, but not spectacular in 2012. Also, he had pre-season testing to get the hang of the car and the cars haven't changed much since he had left F1.
That is true, but Lewis Hamilton has admitted that it takes time to adjust to driving a new car even if the regs are not much different to last season. Having two years out of the sport like Kimi and then coming back and adjusting back in to things is no mean feat. These guys are some of the best in the world at what they do and I don't think adapting to a different racing environment is quite as easy as some fans would like to believe.

[jens]

I like the way the McLaren team-mate battle seems to be hotting up. Based on Sauber days it looked like Pérez has a really tyre-friendly driving style - he could both conserve and go fast. I have to say that this year he is sort of showcasing this skill as well - he can both race and conserve tyres without destroying them in the process. This was the case in both Bahrain and Monaco. Everyone needed to save tyres, yet Pérez seemingly didn't do it, went for it, but the tyres didn't go off.

In terms of driving Pérez reminds me a bit of young Montoya. Has speed in pockets, goes for the overtakes, but can get slightly carried away with in in the process and loses points. Pérez was in the process of outracing Button, but Button got the result in the end. The more Pérez overtook, the more it looked like he was getting overambitious and could easily have a crash, which he sadly did.

Harsh learning lesson there - you can race, you can impress and pass, but still have to choose your battles. I hope he can keep this speed he has recently found. Confidence in the car enables driver to be more racy as well as we have seen. But the same questionmark from Sauber days remains thus far - he can be fast, but his ability to get consistent results remains in doubt.

[steveaki13]

I agree that Perez has an element of Montoya about him.
I thought he completely overshown Button today. He got stuck in and while top drivers were swanning around say "You cant overtake at Monaco" he showed you can if you are brave.

Shame about the last incident, but he can learn and at least he knew you could attack around Monaco.

[airshifter]

I'll third that notion about Perez. The guy is a racer, not just a driver. And I like racers. As much as some will blame him for the incident, I see Kimi as much at fault, and I've been a big supporter of Kimi since he entered F1. Checo made it past a one time WDC with ease, past a two time WDC with ease (and Alonso is no slouch by any means), and finally had an issue with the third WDC in the train when he and Kimi got together after the multiple pass attempts.

But he raced at Monaco. He rolled the dice and this time he lost. But in the process he made a point. :)

[Storm]

Being fast and audacious is better than just being reliable and plodding. Atleast for us spectators. There is still time for Perez to learn how to pick his battles and be more consistent while keeping his natural instincts to pass. I would rather see people like Hamilton (who I dislike as a personality) drive rather than someone like Button.

[lars75]

Well six races on our way!

We can make a short balance now.

RedBull - Vettel is stronger then Webber, no surprice there!
Ferrari - Alonso vs Massa the same story as RedBull, but Massa is much stronger then last season.
Lotus - Kim for champion is my opinion and with Grosjean driving like this it's just a mather off time untill Valsecchi stands in
McLaren - Button has the upperhand on Perez for now, but I see some improvement with the Mexican now some commun sence an he can beat Button
Mercedes - the people that thought Lewis had a easy pray in Rosberg must wonder now, Rosberg is performing much stronger then Lewis at this moment
FIF1 - Sutil and di Resta, I wonder who will win the season here
STR - Ricciardo vs Vergne, the same as FIF1 but I think Ricciardo is a little better
Williams - the car is rubbish and Maldonado is back were he came from, Bottas is using his head more then his experienced teammate and has a little advantage in my opinion
Sauber - Well Hulkenberg has no match in Guiterez as expacted, when it wasn't for the money the Maxican would be replaced by Frijns already
Caterham - Everybody will be thinking what is hapening here! The poor driver vd Garde was as strong as Pic in the first 3 races, Pic was much stronger with the updates in Bahrein, but vd Garde was the stronger one in Barcelona with 90% off the updates as in Monaco with the same package as Pic. He is the best driver of the little teams for the last two races. And it doesn't surprice me at all! He was better then Pic at GP2, is a great teamplayer and knows how to bring a car to the finish aswell.
Marussia - Bianchi by far!

[rjbetty]

Ok I've just looked through this and am also going to give my foolproof utterly objective tam-mate summary so far (and the fact I haven't watched any races, and only followed the first 2 on the radio will in no way impede me)

[I'm being totally sarcastic here btw] :)

RED BULL - Sadly Mark looks like he's had enough and has lost his steam. Young Ronny Cox is making hay, but at least his rather fake nice guy cover now appears to have been blown.
FERRARI - Happily Massa has looked much better (even though I was never much of a fan). I am so sad for Alonso, for while he now has his hands on a car that occasionally keeps within spitting distance and more of the Red Bull, he now looks to have simply tyred himself out through the years of struggle (unlike some drivers who have had it rather easier)
MCLAREN - First a word about the car: Looks like no-one learned the lesson from 2004 where Williams and McLaren went the radical route and were supposed to run away with everything whereas Ferrari were conservative and evolutionary not revolutionary. Guess who dominated everything that season? Now in 2013, things are the same for those teams, and any chance I have of success in FGP this year have long since gone down the loo. The drivers - well Button actually kinda impressed me in Malaysia but I have noticed that young Checo is really matching Jens, and more in the races. Where's Hamilton when you need him?

LOTUS - I've not been that keen on Kimi, and am still reserving judgment, but I have been quietly very impressed with what he has done since his return. He has totally outperformed Grosjean and I admire the way he keeps quietly building himself up. He looks like he is taking this seriously, which is all I want to see. I still don't much enjoy the eccentric claims that Kimi was the best driver last year despite Romain Running Rings around him much of the time... Sadly Romain is exactly as I predicted, overall much more stable, but the flair has been put out and he appears pretty slow...

MERCEDES - Well now I guess this shouldn't have been too much of a surprise. The obvious implications are that Michael wasn't that bad after all (I believe that's true), that Nico is after all a top driver - I STILL don't think he is a very transecendent driver of his cars though (look, it's 3am, I don't care if I'm not making sense - I don't have as much time on my hands anymore. :) ) Obviously, the Lewis haters are having a bit of a field day, but Lewis I am sure will get on top of Nico still (and we will all call Nico average again...)

SAUBER - Flipping Nora what on earth has Nico Hulkenberg done to deserve this? Still doing an exceptional job I think. Just hope he isn't forgotten. Obviously easily beating Gutierrez but I do believe Esteban has talent there (even though there are others more deserving).

FORCE INDIA - Poor Nico Hulkenberg, he should be embarrassing Paul di Resta by rights. At least Paul is trying (a little too hard I think) to smile more - I don't think he needs to try that hard, just don't be miserable and feel entitled and all that. I don't know why anyone thinks Sutil (who I like) will beat Paul. Over the season I fully expect Paul to take this one. In 2011 he was behind Sutil because he was a ROOKIE.

WILLIAMS - Wow did Mike nick the 2013 McLaren design or something? (Ouch that was a real cheap shot FROM ME...) I didn't have a clue what to expect from Bottas. The people who thought he could show Pastor the way have been proved right. Bottas has looked far more impressive - great job.

TORO ROSSO - Same old, but further up than last year. I'm interested to see what these two can do later on this year. Really hard to tell who's the best, both have their highs (Ricciardo in China and Vergne's race pace in the early races)

CATERHAM - van der Garde better against Pic than I expected. Charles needs to step on it. Maybe he looks at that Marussia mournfully. Hope he doesn't become like Timo Glock and that's the end of it...

MARUSSIA - No surprise here for Jules. No disrespect to Luis Razia, but I'm glad someone can extract some sort of potential from that machine. Wish they had more money though. STOP YOUR GAMES Bernie. :(

[faster69]

FERRARI - Happily Massa has looked much better (even though I was never much of a fan). I am so sad for Alonso, for while he now has his hands on a car that occasionally keeps within spitting distance and more of the Red Bull, he now looks to have simply tyred himself out through the years of struggle (unlike some drivers who have had it rather easier)


That's about the worst excuse I have ever heard. Alonso had the car in 2010. His fault for not wining the championship. 2011 didn't have the car, 2012 his car didn't have the ultimate pace of the McLaren (fastest car in 2012) but it did have incredible reliability. As well, Alonso had incredible luck throughout the year. No punctures (Suzuka he drifted into Kimi it was Alonso's fault), no pit mishaps, when he won his rivals would score nothing or little. So it was all a bit skewed.

For Schumacher's first five seasons with Ferrari he never had the best car.

[henners88]

For Schumacher's first five seasons with Ferrari he never had the best car.
And for four of those seasons he didn't convert either. He also didn't have the same level of competition the drivers have now IMHO. You don't rate Hill or Villeneuve who were Michael's key opponents of the 96, 97 seasons and Hakkinen was out of sorts and considering quitting by season five. If you want to bring Schumacher in as an example, I would say it supports that Alonso isn't doing too badly right now with the resources and level of competition.

[steveaki13]

And for four of those seasons he didn't convert either. He also didn't have the same level of competition the drivers have now IMHO. You don't rate Hill or Villeneuve who were Michael's key opponents of the 96, 97 seasons and Hakkinen was out of sorts and considering quitting by season five. If you want to bring Schumacher in as an example, I would say it supports that Alonso isn't doing too badly right now with the resources and level of competition.

No Henners he's the worst on the grid, Ferrari has a car about 6 seconds faster than anyone else.

[Knock-on]

Why do people bother responding to a dick :rolleyes:

Anyway, Nico has really upped his game and Lewis needs to get his eye in. I expect a change back to winning ways.

Checo is at a junction. He has speed but needs to temper it with a bit if nouce otherwise risk going the JPM route.

PdR looks like he's on the bounce. I hope he keeps it going.

Komi doing the biz. He's really matured as a driver although he's not really being pushed.

Alonso looked a bit out of salts in Monaco but expect its a blip. Massa having a strong showing for a lapdog.

The rest? Not bothered until something happens

[dj_bytedisaster]

One, who's been a bit overlooked is Adrian Sutil IMHO. Considering how long it took Hülkenberg to get up to speed after a year on the sidelines, it is amazing how quickly Sutil settled into the car. Drafted in at the last minute and having missed most of the winter testing, he was right up there with di Resta and more often than not even slightly faster. Were it not for rotten luck in many of the first races, he would be giving Button a run for the money.

[The Black Knight]

That's about the worst excuse I have ever heard. Alonso had the car in 2010. His fault for not wining the championship. 2011 didn't have the car, 2012 his car didn't have the ultimate pace of the McLaren (fastest car in 2012) but it did have incredible reliability. As well, Alonso had incredible luck throughout the year. No punctures (Suzuka he drifted into Kimi it was Alonso's fault), no pit mishaps, when he won his rivals would score nothing or little. So it was all a bit skewed.

For Schumacher's first five seasons with Ferrari he never had the best car.

When Schumacher won in Canada 98 it was only because his rivals were out of the picture.

Hungaroring 98, one of the best drives in the history of the sport, a person could say that Schumacher only won that because Hakkinen had gearbox issues.

It's not all as straight forward as your rosey tinted glasses might make it seem. Even the greats need some luck in order to mount a championship challenge.

[kfzmeister]

I read a great article about Lewis and his not feeling super confident in the Mercedes (yet).
Apparently, the Mercedes is built and designed around Brembo brakes. Nico gets on well with them, yet Lewis is used to his Carbon Industries brakes which he used at McLaren. The engineers at Mercedes have switched his car to CI brakes, yet it is taking some time to modify the car's design to them and getting it to work in harmony. Things like redesigned brake ducts all play into this, since the physical design and how it all fits to the car is slightly different. Considering how small parts on the car work with the overall aerodynamics, it can all add up to some time on the track.
Considering all this, Lewis has rather impressed in his short time with Mercedes. I'm willing to bet that as they get everything to work better to suit his style, he should surpass Nico sometime after the midpoint of the season and finish strong.
After all, he usually right behind Nico missing just a few tenths.

[Knock-on]

Did my eyes deceive me or did Romain do rather well today? He was talking candidly about how using a sport psychologist had improved his performance and mental approach but still looked a bit downcast. Perhaps today's result might give him the lift he needs.

As an aside, from a personal perspective he came across as a nice, down to earth young man. He might be a bit of a liability on track some times but I hope he sorts it out as I quite like him.

[steveaki13]

He seems great, and on the whole this season he has calmed down, but he is not as fast.

Apart from Monaco he seems to have lost his pace for the sake of being safe. Which is sad he couldnt do both. i.e drive fast but not crash.

Today however he did a good job.

[Koz]

Did my eyes deceive me or did Romain do rather well today? He was talking candidly about how using a sport psychologist had improved his performance and mental approach but still looked a bit downcast. Perhaps today's result might give him the lift he needs.
I am not sure how much this is down to Grosjean and how much it is to do with the Double DRS system. Kimi was complaining about instability in the rear under braking.
I think this is a case of shoddy new parts.
Grosjean was as quick as Kimi on the prime while Kimi was on the options in Q1. Something doesn't seem right here.


As an aside, from a personal perspective he came across as a nice, down to earth young man. He might be a bit of a liability on track some times but I hope he sorts it out as I quite like him.

Absolutely. Seems like a fairly normal, down to earth, likable chap. Hope he regains some of last year's pace.

[jens]

Most of the season has passed, so we can make another summary.

Red Bull: Vettel's advantage over Webber this year has been more like 2011. Webber has been suffering from a fair amount of unluck, but it is worth noting that Vettel is leading qualifying battle of this pairing by an incredible 14:0! It would be a stunning achievement if he carried it till the end, especially considering, how close it was last year.

Ferrari: Same story as usual with Massa struggling to collect half of Alonso's points.

Mercedes: Up to the Canadian GP Lewis and Nico seemed roughly matched. They have seemed close to each other since the Belgian Grand Prix again, but during races inbetween Hamilton seemed to have an edge, which has contributed to the points gap the 2008 WDC currently enjoys.

Lotus: Since the German GP Grosjean has been up-to-speed and close to Kimi, but overall the damage was done and season was lost in the early part of the year already.

McLaren: There have been a fair amount of races in which Pérez can legitimately keep up with Button and compete against him. But on other occasions the Mexican has suffered from inconsistency and been left a long way behind in the points. A bit like Kimi v Romain. Sometimes the younger driver can take the fight to the leader, but inconsistency and maybe some unluck have left the junior a long way behind in points table. It is a tough job to compete against consistent drivers in the championship standings - you can't let in serious dips in forms.

Force India: it looks like once again they are pretty well-matched. Sutil is behind in points largely by the virtue of suffering a significant amount of unluck in the early part of the season, when the car was good and big points were available. Recently Force India's form has dropped, so it has become difficult to add to the tally and erase the points gap. But in any case they have been performing close.

Sauber: Gutiérrez is like Nakajima was compared to Rosberg. Sometimes he doesn't look too bad, but nonetheless is basically always behind his team-mate and struggles to get any points on board.

STR: for a moment somewhere in mid-season Vergne seemed promising, but overall Ricciardo has been more convincing. It is helped by the fact that the Frenchman still hasn't come strong in qualifying, which is a strength of the Australian and gives him a significant advantage.

Williams: it looks like there is little between them. Sometimes one guy finishes/qualifies above, sometimes the other.

Caterham: van der Garde has seemed quite close or should I say a match to Pic at least during the second half of the season.

Marussia: same story here, I have noticed Chilton has been very close to Bianchi in the second half of the season. Which makes me doubt about the hype of Bianchi that we had in the early races.

[Parabolica]

Is it really fair to call the Alonso-Massa situation a battle?

It's more like Badger Baiting.

And, like Badger Baiting, the Badger would be shot if it looked liked winning.

[Parabolica]

Is it really fair to call the Alonso-Massa situation a battle?

It's more like Badger Baiting.

And, like Badger Baiting, the Badger would be shot if it looked liked winning.

[Parabolica]

I typed that post in a cave.

That's why there was an echo.

[jens]

Perhaps the most interesting recent stories have been Grosjean and Rosberg getting on top of their team-mates. At least temporarily.

Also Massa has been outqualifying Alonso a lot, but their comparative racing is still the same we have always seen.

The last couple of races have been stronger for Pérez too, at least compared to Button. I'd say ever since the Italian GP Pérez has been very close to Button, if not roughly a match during that time. But the points-battle has already been lost basically.

In Force India it is noticable that di Resta has been able to regain decent form after a string of crashes and it can be said he is about to legitimately beat Sutil this year.

Gutiérrez has slightly improved on average, but is still behind Hülkenberg and doesn't leave a strong overall impression IMO. Clearly in the bottom six drivers on the grid for me.

The only constant we have had all year is Vettel beating Webber. Sometimes by a small margin, sometimes by a big margin, but nevertheless ahead.

Two more Grands Prix to go - any more surprises?

[555-04Q2]

For me I have been quite pleasantly surprised how Grosjean has improved this year :) He seems to be maturing and putting in better performances as the year is going on. Let's hope he keeps it up next year. We need more consistent, good drivers challenging up front :)

[steveaki13]

It is amazing how Grosjean has improved this season. Compare it to the crash fest of 2012 and apart from Monaco where he had a terrible weekend he has been sensible and fast.

He now looks like he could and will win Grand Prix in the future.

Never saw that a year ago.

[555-04Q2]

He now looks like he could and will win Grand Prix in the future.

Never saw that a year ago.

I don't think anyone saw it! :D

[SGWilko]

For me I have been quite pleasantly surprised how Grosjean has improved this year :) He seems to be maturing and putting in better performances as the year is going on. Let's hope he keeps it up next year. We need more consistent, good drivers challenging up front :)

Remind you of a young Finn? Crashed a lot and was wild but fast in the early seasons, then matured!

[555-04Q2]

For me I have been quite pleasantly surprised how Grosjean has improved this year :) He seems to be maturing and putting in better performances as the year is going on. Let's hope he keeps it up next year. We need more consistent, good drivers challenging up front :)

Remind you of a young Finn? Crashed a lot and was wild but fast in the early seasons, then matured!

Sounds like you are referring to Mika (not Kimi). He did mature nicely as The Shoe found out :)

[SGWilko]

Sounds like you are referring to Mika

House Point for you sir!

[jens]

It is amazing how Grosjean has improved this season. Compare it to the crash fest of 2012 and apart from Monaco where he had a terrible weekend he has been sensible and fast.

He now looks like he could and will win Grand Prix in the future.

Never saw that a year ago.

To be honest, last year Grosjean finished second in Canada and was fairly close to winning at Valencia before alternator failure.

So winning an odd race here or there was never out of question. However, consistency has been a big problem. We will see, what does the future bring on that front.

[555-04Q2]

Sounds like you are referring to Mika

House Point for you sir!

Why thank you sir :) And I can offer you a Noddy badge if you like :p:

I remember Mika when he was young and brash, like the Takumo Sato of Finland! But he came good in the end didn't he :)

[steveaki13]

[quote="555-04Q2":1skss4pu]For me I have been quite pleasantly surprised how Grosjean has improved this year :) He seems to be maturing and putting in better performances as the year is going on. Let's hope he keeps it up next year. We need more consistent, good drivers challenging up front :)

Remind you of a young Finn? Crashed a lot and was wild but fast in the early seasons, then matured!

Sounds like you are referring to Mika (not Kimi). He did mature nicely as The Shoe found out :)[/quote:1skss4pu]

Not JJ Lehto then. :D

[555-04Q2]

:rotflmao: Not! :rotflmao: