This is surreal - in a messed up way . . . .

[race aficionado]

We've been hearing about this for a while on this end of the pond but this graph really hones it in.
If this is true . . . .

I wonder how your "economic graph' is on your side of the woods.

9 Out Of 10 Americans Are Completely Wrong About This Mind-Blowing Fact (http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2)

[EuroTroll]

If this is true, it is indeed shocking! :eek: Would anyone think this was good?

Vote Democrat. :p

[Gregor-y]

It's been floating around for the last few weeks on various message boards. I think most people are too jaded and worried about their own selves that they just don't care enough to do anything, as long as they aren't suffering. From the perspective of the US it's the insular biedermeier mentality all over again.

[anthonyvop]

Even if it is true(And it ain't) the only people to blame are those who espouse the same old restrictive Keynesian polices.

[BDunnell]

Even if it is true(And it ain't) the only people to blame are those who espouse the same old restrictive Keynesian polices.

Just saying 'It ain't' isn't really good enough. Please offer detailed proof as to why those figures are wrong, ideally proof you've calculated and verified yourself.

[EuroTroll]

Even if it is true(And it ain't) the only people to blame are those who espouse the same old restrictive Keynesian polices.

Could you elaborate a little bit? Why do you think this isn't true? If it is true, though, then who exactly is to blame and for which policies?

[janneppi]

9 Out Of 10 Americans Are Completely Wrong About This Mind-Blowing Fact (http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2)
Off topic, but I've begun to loathe the new headline type that seem gain popularity(most likely because of the sites that gather news head lines) I call them Pronoun News.

I use a site that collects Finnish new headlines from different sources and I've created profile that filter out headlines which include words such as
this, these, is, shocking. Also question type headlines are filtered out.

No more "Is this the most shocking Idols singer picture?"

[Dave B]

Just saying 'It ain't' isn't really good enough. Please offer detailed proof as to why those figures are wrong, ideally proof you've calculated and verified yourself.
I think we have to accept that, to some, economics is more akin to a religion, and their deeply held beliefs will not be altered by any amount of evidence. :s

[race aficionado]

I think most people are too jaded and worried about their own selves that they just don't care enough to do anything, as long as they aren't suffering. From the perspective of the US it's the insular biedermeier mentality all over again.

Well, in my case, where I use to be upper middle class and was living the 'American Dream" by working hard, eventually bought my home in Manhattan, startedmy own business that is now 17 years old, paying my taxes and now - and for a while now - struggling to keep up the pace with the cost of life and the fact that banks are not lending money to small businesses which had helped to keep us all running by allowing us to refinance and consolidate. It's not happening now. And to think that we bailed them out . . . .

Like many others, if not most of the others, I am as busy as I was 10 years ago but making around 60% of what I use to make.

For people that are on a salary, their salaries have not gone up in years, they have to work more hours and are not benefited financially when the DOW breaks records after our government makes billions of dollars in cuts that affect those that need it most.

It's basically nuts, really.

[Starter]

For people that are on a salary, their salaries have not gone up in years, they have to work more hours and are not benefited financially when the DOW breaks records after our government makes billions of dollars in cuts that affect those that need it most.
I'm pretty much financially benefited when the DOW goes up. I've taken the trouble to invest wisely though.

[Gregor-y]

You need to have spare money to invest, too.

The 90s were something of an abberation, though things now are much worse than before so many banking regulations were relaxed. Back in the early 2000s when my employer went public we were able to devote 8% each paycheck to purchase stock at 85% of the closing price the day of our paycheck. After about six months they tried to induce everyone to switch to a non-voting 'loyalty share' by offering a guaranteed dividend. I stuck it out with the full shares for two years until the company decided to re-define itself as an outsourcing and 'thought leadership' organization and shed most of its North American work force.

While I still have grudge against the company for how they treated their staff, I can say the stock is worth about five times more than I paid for it. Plus I still get a dividend, though since they are cheap *******s it comes from a bank in Ireland and I have to file an additional tax form.

It's still nowhere near the top 10%, let alone 1%, though. Most of those people don't work in the conventional sense and get a lower tax rate while earning more money. No wonder we are where we are.

[Rollo]

Even if it is true(And it ain't) the only people to blame are those who espouse the same old restrictive Keynesian polices.

If you'd bothered to read "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money" by JM Keynes, you'd have found that he advocated running government surpluses during booms and deficits during downturns, as a way of levelling out the peaks and troughs of the economy.
On a year by year basis, the last time that the United States actually ran a real surplus was back in 1969. None of Clinton's claimed surpluses were genuine because he just borrowed from different budgets.

So when you actually start with "restrictive Keynesian polices" then you can feel free to criticize them but until then, why continue with untruth?

[Rollo]

Like many others, if not most of the others, I am as busy as I was 10 years ago but making around 60% of what I use to make.

For people that are on a salary, their salaries have not gone up in years, they have to work more hours and are not benefited financially when the DOW breaks records after our government makes billions of dollars in cuts that affect those that need it most.

It's basically nuts, really.

This is taken from the 2012 Economic Report of the President from table B-47:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/ERP-2012/pdf/ERP-2012.pdf
Year Weekly Earnings (1982-84 dollars)
1972 $341.83 (peak)
1975 $314.75
1980 $290.86
1985 $285.34
1990 $271.12
1992 $266.46
1995 $267.07
2000 $284.79
2005 $284.99
2010 $297.67
2011 $294.78

In real terms, people's wages generally peaked in 1972. This means that in the 39 years since, their marginal propensity to save and thus accumulate wealth has also been steadily falling.
It doesn't matter which side of politics you support, the fact that you choose one of the other is irrelevant. The point is that people are genuinely worse off despite productivity gains; wage earners are not rewarded adequately for their efforts.

[BDunnell]

In real terms, people's wages generally peaked in 1972. This means that in the 39 years since, their marginal propensity to save and thus accumulate wealth has also been steadily falling.
It doesn't matter which side of politics you support, the fact that you choose one of the other is irrelevant. The point is that people are genuinely worse off despite productivity gains; wage earners are not rewarded adequately for their efforts.

One wonders about the extent to which this is true of certain industries and not true in others (banking being a prime possible example of the latter.)

[Rollo]

One wonders about the extent to which this is true of certain industries and not true in others (banking being a prime possible example of the latter.)

Banking is a curious one because with the advent of online banking, many of the people who would have been included no longer work in the industry. It's also cheaper to have an ATM on a street corner than employ people and pay rent to run a branch.
On that note, I bet that the people who still do work in branchland probably also haven't had real wage increases like the rest of the population.

The other side of the coin is that the people who work in the finance industry who have seen their real wages shoot upwards, probably would have been included in the top 20% anyway as the video suggests.

[Rudy Tamasz]

It's basically nuts, really.

Why? You just took it for granted that your wealth would be increasing constantly, but that was not the case. This world is way too complex and tough. Working hard and being smart are not the only factors of individual prosperity. The majority of factors are external and lie outside of our control. I believe that, philosophically, we all need to manage our expectations.

[EuroTroll]

Why? You just took it for granted that your wealth would be increasing constantly, but that was not the case. This world is way too complex and tough. Working hard and being smart are not the only factors of individual prosperity. The majority of factors are external and lie outside of our control. I believe that, philosophically, we all need to manage our expectations.

"You can do anything. All it takes are a few good men." - I think that's the American can-do attitude. You don't just accept the way the world is - you try to make it better.

In this case, through elections. (Vote Democrat. ;) ) Or civil war. We'll find out, which. Gross injustices that are not adequately addressed peacefully tend to get addressed violently.

[Rollo]

The majority of factors are external and lie outside of our control. I believe that, philosophically, we all need to manage our expectations.

The biggest single factor has nothing to do with you at all, but is simply the circumstances into which you were born. If "philosophically, we all need to manage our expectations" are you suggesting or advocating social darwinism? If as the video suggests that the bottom 50% own just 0.5% of the wealth and are barely scraping by, then are roughly 156 million people in the surplus to requirements?

[Rudy Tamasz]

"You can do anything. All it takes are a few good men." - I think that's the American can-do attitude. You don't just accept the way the world is - you try to make it better.

In this case, through elections. (Vote Democrat. ;) ) Or civil war. We'll find out, which. Gross injustices that are not adequately addressed peacefully tend to get addressed violently.

"A man has got to know his limitations," - Clint Eastwood.

[Rudy Tamasz]

The biggest single factor has nothing to do with you at all, but is simply the circumstances into which you were born. If "philosophically, we all need to manage our expectations" are you suggesting or advocating social darwinism? If as the video suggests that the bottom 50% own just 0.5% of the wealth and are barely scraping by, then are roughly 156 million people in the surplus to requirements?

Rollo, you misunderstood my point completely. First, if you check my post again, it was written in response to race aficionado's second post rather than the video. Therefore, I was talking about individual circumstances and individual approach to one's position in this world. There was nothing there that had to do will millions and per cents. Second, I believe every human being is equally valuable to this world. That doesn't mean that everybody will have an equal lot in this life. That's never been the case and never will be. The reasons for that are too numerous to mention and you know them all too well. Calling this view 'social darwinism is a bit too strong. The biggest thing that I wanted question is the sense of entitlement. True, people are entitled to get protection and services from the government and other powers that be. However, we should not carelessly imagine that governments are omnipotent and can fix anything. They cannot, and there are plenty of other factors deciding one's prosperity or poverty. If somebody wants to live his/her life with a sense of entitlement, good luck. People like that will have to correct their views eventually, or they will be up for a rude awakening.

[race aficionado]

. . . if you check my post again, it was written in response to race aficionado's second post rather than the video. Therefore, I was talking about individual circumstances and individual approach to one's position in this world. . . . The biggest thing that I wanted question is the sense of entitlement. . . .If somebody wants to live his/her life with a sense of entitlement, good luck. People like that will have to correct their views eventually, or they will be up for a rude awakening.

Rudy.
I fail to understand where you concluded that I felt ENTITLED to anything.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Entitlement in a very general, philosophical sense. Many of us tend to think that this world is an ever better place and we are going to get more and more prosperous. When we see that our efforts don's pay off, we get upset. We shouldn't. Prosperity for everybody (or most) was never a deal.

My message is simple: this world is not improving; take nothing for granted.

[BDunnell]

My message is simple: this world is not improving; take nothing for granted.

In some ways I feel it is improving; in others, especially environmentally and economically, clearly not.

[EuroTroll]

Prosperity for everybody (or most) was never a deal.

What was the deal then, and who made it? :)

[schmenke]

...
My message is simple: this world is not improving; take nothing for granted.

Not even toilet paper? :(

[Rollo]

Entitlement in a very general, philosophical sense. Many of us tend to think that this world is an ever better place and we are going to get more and more prosperous. When we see that our efforts don's pay off, we get upset. We shouldn't. Prosperity for everybody (or most) was never a deal.

My message is simple: this world is not improving; take nothing for granted.

No, it's getting worse in terms of wages and you're suggesting that people should just accept increasingly crappier pay in real terms then? Do you feel that people should not expect "by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry"?


Calling this view 'social darwinism is a bit too strong.

What else would you like to call it then?

[BDunnell]

No, it's getting worse in terms of wages and you're suggesting that people should just accept increasingly crappier pay in real terms then? Do you feel that people should not expect "by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry"?

I agree completely. There is a good reason why the concept of the 'race to the bottom' in many sectors is not seen as a positive one. I also feel there is a growing sense of disconnection between bosses and workers — yes, the latter have always moaned about the former as long as the relationship has existed, but to me it seems ever more acute, and often justifiably.

[race aficionado]

Before I started my own company I was a senior editor in a hi end post production facility in NYC.

Life was good, and even though we were non union we got time and a half overtime after 8 hours of work.
This was late 80's and getting a larger check after working all those extra hours was worth it and fair.

Starting the 90's the company I worked for decided to not pay overtime but offered the option of using the extra hours as added vacation time. On this side of the pond we were lucky to get 2 weeks paid vacation so those extra days were gladly welcomed.

Soon after that they decided to determine when you could take those days off indiscriminate of what you chose, depending on how busy the company was on any determined day. In other words if any body came to work and it was slow, they would be sent home and the hours they were not at work were taken away of their hard earned overtime which was planned to be used as planned vacation time.

Me being senior staff was never ordered that and I'm glad it didn't happen. It was also time for me to move on, post production equipment was now more affordable, I had a large client base so I was able to start my own company (a company of 1 -I chose not to have employees but when I occasionally contract crews for a shoot I treat them very well)

So in less than 5 years as an employee I witnessed the deterioration of the relationship between management and their work force.

Also, another thing that I was lately made aware of is that in my days as an employee, included in my 8 daily work hours, my lunch brake time was included in those 8 hours. Now it isn't. I don't know if that was because I was fortunate or if that has also changed over all.

So without feeling entitled, I have been around, I have been there, done that and the "olden days" of my line of work (until the mid 90's) were definitely better days.

[rjbetty]

Is it Bernie who owns the huge 1% in the video? :)

[Rudy Tamasz]

What was the deal then, and who made it? :)

Your distant ancestor messed up your part of the deal what he disregarded a wise advice and approached the wrong tree. It's been going downhill ever since.

[Rudy Tamasz]

No, it's getting worse in terms of wages and you're suggesting that people should just accept increasingly crappier pay in real terms then? Do you feel that people should not expect "by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry"?

We're talking different things. I'm getting general and you want to discuss specifically the relations between the employer and the employee and the fairness thereof. Well, it's in the human nature to negotiate a better deal for oneself. I'm with you on this one. The difference is, I know my limitations. I know it's not just me and me negotiation skills. Therefore, if I don't get what I want, I'm more likely to accept it and move on to other things, than to live in state of constant bitterness against the world. For sure, I'm not gonna drop my tears on the dated Labour manifestos anyway.


What else would you like to call it then?

Realism.

[EuroTroll]

Your distant ancestor messed up your part of the deal what he disregarded a wise advice and approached the wrong tree. It's been going downhill ever since.

Blasted Eve! :arrows: So you're the reason I don't get paid as much as I should. :hmph:

[race aficionado]

Okay, so the situation is not a good one for us that still have hope in humanity and have not given up in accepting this "reality"


I've bored some of you with my career history so let me give you a glimpse of what i was doing in the late 80's top 90's:


https://vimeo.com/album/1500460/video/56828043




And this is how corporate I've become:


https://vimeo.com/album/1500460/video/41798541