Humanity

[steveaki13]

Inspired by the dicussion off topic in the Homophobia thread I thought it would be fun to bring that discussion here and leave the Homophobia thread for its own purpose.


I think Humanity is the most amazing success story in evloution, but at a cost.

We have savaged large numbers of habitats and species on the down side, but on the up side, so many individuals are trying to put it right, by helping species survive. Its the worst and best of the Human species.

Yet while we seem so in control of our world, but as we occasionally see planet earth can still render us helpless.

So any thoughts about any interesting aspects of our evolution, exsistance or future.

[SGWilko]

Our own success as a species will eventually be our demise. We will use up the finite resources on supporting an unsupportable population, which will then fade away as we realise there is no longer enough space left in order to feed the populaion.

Violence and wars will rage over claims to scarce resources.......

[Mark]

While I hope you are incorrect the laws of nature (and Thomas Malthus) suggest that this must happen.

Hopefully not in our lifetimes.

[SGWilko]

While I hope you are incorrect the laws of nature (and Thomas Malthus) suggest that this must happen.

Hopefully not in our lifetimes.

Not in my lifetime, and I dearly hope not in my childrens' lifetime, but it is not that far off I fear.

[EuroTroll]

Great idea for a thread, Steve! :up:


Our own success as a species will eventually be our demise. We will use up the finite resources on supporting an unsupportable population, which will then fade away as we realise there is no longer enough space left in order to feed the populaion.

Violence and wars will rage over claims to scarce resources.......

Nonsense. ;) The world's human population will probably stabilise at around 10 billion - a number we can support. When certain resources run out, new technologies will enable us to use other, more plentiful ones. Our technological advance will continue, and we will eventually start to colonise space, starting with Mars.

The only real danger I can see is nuclear war. Oh yes, and Nibiru. :p

[steveaki13]

Its seems a bit sick to click "Like" on a post like SGWilko's about the demise of humanity, but I sadly agree with that.

[EuroTroll]

Its seems a bit sick to click "Like" on a post like SGWilko's about the demise of humanity, but I sadly agree with that.

What a bunch of pessimists you guys are! :) I intend to fight you all the way! :p :D

[SGWilko]

What a bunch of pessimists you guys are! :) I intend to fight you all the way! :p :D

At least I am an optimistic pessimist. :D

[SGWilko]

One of the reasons we will be unable to limit the population is the do-gooders who dictate 'who are we to decide the population is too big'.

[Zico]

Great idea for a thread, Steve! :up:



Nonsense. ;) The world's human population will probably stabilise at around 10 billion - a number we can support. When certain resources run out, new technologies will enable us to use other, more plentiful ones. Our technological advance will continue, and we will eventually start to colonise space, starting with Mars.

The only real danger I can see is nuclear war. Oh yes, and Nibiru. :p

According to these world population projections- World Population - The Current World Population (http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm) that 10 billion figure could happen within this century, maybe not within our lifetimes but certainly within our children or grandchildrens lifetimes. Is there much we could do to slow it down? Maybe a change in the catholic church's stance on contraception?

[EuroTroll]

According to these world population projections- World Population - The Current World Population (http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm) that 10 billion figure could happen within this century, maybe not within our lifetimes but certainly within our children or grandchildrens lifetimes. Is there much we could do to slow it down? Maybe a change in the catholic church's stance on contraception?

Well, in Europe the population has already pretty much stabilised. It's declining in fact in many countries, including my own. I'm sure the same will happen elsewhere, eventually.

[SGWilko]

According to these world population projections- World Population - The Current World Population (http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm) that 10 billion figure could happen within this century, maybe not within our lifetimes but certainly within our children or grandchildrens lifetimes. Is there much we could do to slow it down? Maybe a change in the catholic church's stance on contraception?

Maybe the replacement sarcophagus they are erecting at Chernobyl will not fit, the old one will collapse scattering lethal levels of radioactive dust throught the atmosphere and introducing killer rain to the world.........

What a pleasant thought?

[SGWilko]

Well, in Europe the population has already pretty much stabilised. It's declining in fact in many countries, including my own. I'm sure the same will happen elsewhere, eventually.

That's cos they're all over here........ :p

[EuroTroll]

That's cos there all over here........ :p

I'm not from Poland. :p Estonians mostly emigrate to Finland to find better jobs. ;)

[steveaki13]

One thing I always wonder is how long Humanity would survive.

Evolution continues and the planets life cycle will continue, Humans have come so far in such a short timescale, that I wonder if humans will last much longer than the same again.

Think about complex life being only 530odd million years old. Where will humanity and life be in even 1 million years time. Consider a million years ago Humans were still pretty primative.

I find it fasinating.

[BDunnell]

Not much talk in this thread about technological progress making a positive contribution in the fields of energy use and resource production, which I find rather odd.

[steveaki13]

Great idea for a thread, Steve! :up:



Thanks.

Certainly has got people talking. It covers such a wide base.

Evolution, Migration, history, influence on nature, use of natural resources. Anything really.

[steveaki13]

Not much talk in this thread about technological progress making a positive contribution in the fields of energy use and resource production, which I find rather odd.

Give us a chance. We have only just started.

Thats another thing we can discuss.

Why dont you start us off in that direction BDunnell

[EuroTroll]

Think about complex life being only 530odd million years old. Where will humanity and life be in even 1 million years time. Consider a million years ago Humans were still pretty primative.

I find it fasinating.

It is, isn't it? :) Imagine a species who is intellectually as much our superior as we are superior to the early hominoids. What will they think of our primitive experiments with space flight, etc. They'll consider it quite adorable, no doubt. :)

[SGWilko]

Not much talk in this thread about technological progress making a positive contribution in the fields of energy use and resource production, which I find rather odd.

Most of our energy production is still based around fossil fuels. The nuclear aspect has been dealt a blow by our (humanity again) lack of ability to maintain anything properly without cutting costs in order to make maximum profit, and wind, wave, hydro power is still only a fraction of what we need.

Now look at the amount of energy required to extract hydrogen from the atmosphere/water in order to make 'green powered' cars.

Climate change is making it harder to reliably grow enough food, and the ever growing population is taking up more and more space that would otherwise be used to grow crops or for grazing animals.

[Zico]

Maybe the replacement sarcophagus they are erecting at Chernobyl will not fit, the new one will collapse scattering lethal levels of radiactive dust throught the atmosphere and introducing killer rain to the world.........

What a pleasant thought?


I think it would take more than that to create such a huge impact tbh.. although you have given me an idea to design and patent a lead lined brolly ;)


hmm.. what about that Kim bloke from North Korea letting off a few nukes?.. that could could make a few dents.

[steveaki13]

That combines well with our demise debate as well.

The talk of using up natural resources, balances with the progress we are making in natural energy. Thus far some great progress has been made, but real steps need to be taken in order to make sure we can keep a balance.

I believe it can be done that we can one day use our planet to live, but not by destroying it.

[EuroTroll]

I believe it can be done that we can one day use our planet to live, but not by destroying it.

More optimistic! ;) I like it. :up:

[steveaki13]

It is, isn't it? :) Imagine a species who is intellectually as much our superior as we are superior to the early hominoids. What will they think of our primitive experiments with space flight, etc. They'll consider it quite adorable, no doubt. :)

I personally believe there must be life elsewhere in the universe, maybe not very intellegent life but still life.

However imagine if we get to the stage where we could not be limited by our home planet.

It would seem surreal to think it, but imagine humans who never saw there native world, and all the wonderful life in it.

It is both amazing and sad in someways. However we are getting ahead of ourselves, we have plenty more to achieve here yet.

We still have areas in our solarsystem to explore for some signs of life. Mars, and maybe the frozen sea world of Europa (One of Jupiters Moons). Afterall all as of now the only life we know of started in water on this planet, so under unseen ice sheets there could be some sort of life.

Imagine if we found confirmation that life is not only limited to our one planet. Even the discovery of singlecell life opens the doors that we are just one oasis of life in the universe.

Thinking about it, blows my mind.

[steveaki13]

More optimistic! ;) I like it. :up:

Of course even if we dont destroy it, it will be destroyed but the sun or Cataclismic event from space.

[ioan]

Inspired by the dicussion off topic in the Homophobia thread I thought it would be fun to bring that discussion here and leave the Homophobia thread for its own purpose.


I think Humanity is the most amazing success story in evloution, but at a cost.

We have savaged large numbers of habitats and species on the down side, but on the up side, so many individuals are trying to put it right, by helping species survive. Its the worst and best of the Human species.

Yet while we seem so in control of our world, but as we occasionally see planet earth can still render us helpless.

So any thoughts about any interesting aspects of our evolution, exsistance or future.

When the time comes humanity will go down the drain without having learned from previous cases that have been discovered and discussed again and again.

[ioan]

Of course even if we dont destroy it, it will be destroyed but the sun or Cataclismic event from space.

The way I see it right now there are three category of human beings:
1. those who think we are perfect
2. those who have no clue and love the comfort of the modern life
3. those who see the issues looming bigger and bigger

The first 2 categories will always win in a democratic system.

[EuroTroll]

When the time comes humanity will go down the drain without having learned from previous cases that have been discovered and discussed again and again.

Eh? What previous cases? Surely we have gotten further than any other animal ever on Earth, and have to make it up as we go along?

The dinosaurs didn't even have Playstation 2, not to mention Playstation 3. :p

Or did you mean previous, now gone, human civilizations?

[EuroTroll]

The way I see it right now there are three category of human beings:
1. those who think we are perfect
2. those who have no clue and love the comfort of the modern life
3. those who see the issues looming bigger and bigger

The first 2 categories will always win in a democratic system.

There's an ounce of truth in that... So what's the solution?

[EuroTroll]

Of course even if we dont destroy it, it will be destroyed but the sun or Cataclismic event from space.

Well, the Sun has a few billion years left in it still, so that's no problem for a good while yet. And cataclysmic space events like asteroid strikes we will learn to predict and prevent.

I'm confident that it's all in our own hands. Can we go a couple of millennia or more without destroying ourselves? That is the question.

[SGWilko]

Well, lools like nature may well have stepped in to naturally control population numbers;

BBC News - Antibiotics resistance 'as big a risk as terrorism' - medical chief (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21737844)

[Mark]

Species evolve and then they go extinct. There's no reason (at present) to suspect the same fate doesn't await human kind. After a few thousand years all trace of us ever existing will be gone. Left to be dug up as fossils.

[EuroTroll]

Species evolve and then they go extinct. There's no reason (at present) to suspect the same fate doesn't await human kind. After a few thousand years all trace of us ever existing will be gone. Left to be dug up as fossils.

Ah, but what happens to intelligent species? Species that have Playstation. :p We just don't know. ;)

[Knock-on]

Well, lools like nature may well have stepped in to naturally control population numbers;

BBC News - Antibiotics resistance 'as big a risk as terrorism' - medical chief (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21737844)

What a poor choice he made for his comparrisson. If humans develop complete resistanced to Antibiotics, millions will die each year, no a couple of hundred through terrorism.

We are in an unnaturally calm period in human development. This really is not good for human kind as we get too much growth whereas we need regular culls. As it is, we are hurtleing head first into a global population explosion which will probably end in some sort of disaster.

What really irritates me is the way 'civilised' countries keep pumping aid into the same old famine hit areas year after year. All that happens is that hundreds of thousands of people are kept in famine limbo without being forced to either leave for better areas or die. It strikes me as very cruel to artificially sustain people on a land that cannot provide for them.

[donKey jote]

Well, lools like nature may well have stepped in to naturally control population numbers;

BBC News - Antibiotics resistance 'as big a risk as terrorism' - medical chief (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21737844)

Well, we are part of nature.

[BDunnell]

What a poor choice he made for his comparrisson. If humans develop complete resistanced to Antibiotics, millions will die each year, no a couple of hundred through terrorism.

I would suggest that not wishing to be viewed as scaremongering — even if this is not the case — plays a part in this.

[Mark]

Ah, but what happens to intelligent species? Species that have Playstation. :p We just don't know. ;)


No, we don't. As far as we know we're unique in species evolved on Earth that we have the capability to travel beyond it, so theoretically we can even survive the sun going red giant. However we are no less subject to evolution as any other species, perhaps more so, modern humans have only been around maybe 100,000 years, i.e. nothing in the scheme of things. Could we be around in 100,000 years, yes probably. 10 million years, maybe, but who knows what we'll look like.

[Bagwan]

OK fellow human beings , here's what I'm currently doing about it .
I'm going off the grid .

Solar power , man .
2.8kw of solar panels powers my new house , and it's dirt cheap to do it right now .

Currently(pun intended) , for that amount of power , it costs about $15,000.00 to get of the grid .
For those in my neighbourhood , with roughly $3,000.00 a year on average electricity bills , it's about a five year payback .
For me , it was a pretty obvious choice because my local provider was going to charge me that much , almost exactly , to bring in power to the house .

I have read that the amount of power coming from the sun in a day is enough to power the planet for a year .

China's Golden Sun incentive project has resulted in cut-price panels flooding the market , bringing solar from $20-25 a watt to what I paid , $3.30 in just a few years .
A friend of mine just got some at $1.76/watt .

My panels are guaranteed for 25 years , and my batteries are guaranteed for 10 .
After those ten years , I expect to be able to buy lithium batteries , if I can't keep my lead acid ones alive .

Of course , I still drive there using fossil fuel , but I hope to move towards electric transportation at some point , charging it off the panels as well some day .

The economics of the idea are eminently do-able right now , but you won't have the oil guys saying so .

[Rudy Tamasz]

OK fellow human beings

How do you know we all are human beings? We speak a human language and can type and sometimes we behave like, well, human beings, but is this a proof strong enough?

[EuroTroll]

How do you know we all are human beings? We speak a human language and can type and sometimes we behave like, well, human beings, but is this a proof strong enough?

Is there something you want to tell us, Rudy? :)

[ioan]

There's an ounce of truth in that... So what's the solution?

Make everyone smarter overnight?!
I guess there is no solution, cause by the time everyone will agree on one, some compromise as always, it will be too late. And all this because we think we are superior and smarter than everyone.

[ioan]

Ah, but what happens to intelligent species? Species that have Playstation. :p We just don't know. ;)

Get fat from sitting on a sofa, eating and drinking crap. Will die of heart attack or diabetes long before reaching the age of their grandparents.

[EuroTroll]

So basically, ioan, you're saying that we're screwed and there's nothing that can be done about it? You're a cheery fellow, aren't you.. :p

[Bagwan]

How do you know we all are human beings? We speak a human language and can type and sometimes we behave like, well, human beings, but is this a proof strong enough?

I was talking to the humans here , Rudy . They know who they are .

It's kind of irrelevent , though , as , if they can speak and type , they can likely understand the economics of solar power .

[henners88]

And......the.....winter.....nights....just......ro ll....along............................... lol.

[ioan]

What a poor choice he made for his comparrisson. If humans develop complete resistanced to Antibiotics, millions will die each year, no a couple of hundred through terrorism.

You mean if bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics, cause luckily we are rather resistant.
I do agree with you that the medic is downplaying the risks of antibiotics resistance, immensely.

We 'developed' so much that some of the most usual bacteria could kill us, something that wouldn't have happened 30 years ago when humans used to have an immune system capable of fighting most diseases on its own.

[ioan]

Eh? What previous cases? Surely we have gotten further than any other animal ever on Earth, and have to make it up as we go along?

The dinosaurs didn't even have Playstation 2, not to mention Playstation 3. :p

Or did you mean previous, now gone, human civilizations?

We got to the point where we are one big civilization, so the demise of it will be more or less equal demise of the mankind, minus a few undiscovered tribes in the Amazon region.

[gadjo_dilo]

. And all this because we think we are superior and smarter than everyone.
I don't think like this and honestly I'm not the sort of Uriah Heep.....

[ioan]

So basically, ioan, you're saying that we're screwed and there's nothing that can be done about it? You're a cheery fellow, aren't you.. :p

We, as of those living at this time on Earth, might not be screwed but we are for sure screwing the coming generations, and I am not talking about the 20 year old blonde neighbor student. And for what? Bloody money.

I call myself a realist, and if there is one thing I learned in my short life is that there are way to many idiots living on Earth, that 80-20 % theory can be applied imho.

[ioan]

I don't think like this and honestly I'm not the sort of Uriah Heep.....

You're one of few.

[steveaki13]

The evolution of Bacteria and virus to be resistant of antibiotics is disturbing, but it was a case of when that happened not if. After billions of years it would not stop evolving just because we find a temporary killer of it.

Unless you wipe out all Bacteria (in which case everything would die anyway) you cant stop its evolution.


The real question is how we overcome the problem. Nearly every problem Man Kind has faced has been dealt with. Is this one of those, or eventually will the lack of paths into medicine development be our undoing.

[Bagwan]

We, as of those living at this time on Earth, might not be screwed but we are for sure screwing the coming generations, and I am not talking about the 20 year old blonde neighbor student. And for what? Bloody money.

I call myself a realist, and if there is one thing I learned in my short life is that there are way to many idiots living on Earth, that 80-20 % theory can be applied imho.

You're pretty spot on with your realism , my friend , but there are a few signs that , although it has taken a long time for it to even start to sink in , people are realizing the realism of heading towards many global catastrophies .
One needs only to follow the money to the culprits driving the train toward the cliff .

It's only a tad ironic that it will be the money , the only issue that turns the heads of the masses , that dictates the turn away from oil on a global scale , because that oil will cost too much , not the environmental impact .
It's not the eyesore of seeing the oil on the feathers of the seabird , but the cost of shipping all that donated Palmolive dish soap that is so mild on the hands that it is perfect to easily remove all those un-sightly oil stains on even the softest of those downy breast feathers and bring them back to thier original sparkling whiteness .

Just like yourself , we are all becoming more and more cynical about it all .

I still have an old button from circa 1970 , that says "question authority" .
Just because they call it a "conspiracy theory" , it doesn't mean it isn't true .

And , more and more of us are coming to this conclusion .

I admit it .

I'm an optomist .
I don't believe I'm smarter , but I do believe enough of us will see some sense soon enough to save us from ourselves .

Greed has taken us down this road , and it will be greed that saves us .

[schmenke]

......After those ten years , I expect to be able to buy lithium batteries , ... .

Lithium is a limited, non-renewable resource.

[ioan]

You're pretty spot on with your realism , my friend , but there are a few signs that , although it has taken a long time for it to even start to sink in , people are realizing the realism of heading towards many global catastrophies .
One needs only to follow the money to the culprits driving the train toward the cliff .

It's only a tad ironic that it will be the money , the only issue that turns the heads of the masses , that dictates the turn away from oil on a global scale , because that oil will cost too much , not the environmental impact .
It's not the eyesore of seeing the oil on the feathers of the seabird , but the cost of shipping all that donated Palmolive dish soap that is so mild on the hands that it is perfect to easily remove all those un-sightly oil stains on even the softest of those downy breast feathers and bring them back to thier original sparkling whiteness .

Just like yourself , we are all becoming more and more cynical about it all .

I still have an old button from circa 1970 , that says "question authority" .
Just because they call it a "conspiracy theory" , it doesn't mean it isn't true .

And , more and more of us are coming to this conclusion .

I admit it .

I'm an optomist .
I don't believe I'm smarter , but I do believe enough of us will see some sense soon enough to save us from ourselves .

Greed has taken us down this road , and it will be greed that saves us .

You are indeed an optimist.
At this time no matter how much I want to believe that all will turn out OK I do not see enough initiative to convince me that we, as mankind, are capable of saving ourselves. Everywhere I look it is all about compromises that are compromising our chances while the clock is ticking.

[donKey jote]

Some (a few!) bacteria may be resistant to all known antibiotics, but how is this substantially different to the last 10000-100000 years, in which humanity didn't have any pharmaceutical antibiotics?

Oh yes I forgot... air travel.... arrrghhhh we are all going to dieeeeee :eek:

[ioan]

Lithium is a limited, non-renewable resource.

Yep, to little of it available to dream about having enough of it for everyone to live Baggy's dream.
We need solutions that can allow storage of energy in another form then batteries, maybe thermal, or pressure can do the job.

[ioan]

Some (a few!) bacteria may be resistant to all known antibiotics, but how is this substantially different to the last 10000-100000 years, in which humanity didn't have any pharmaceutical antibiotics?

Oh yes I forgot... air travel.... arrrghhhh we are all going to dieeeeee :eek:

In years gone by people had a very strong immune system because they were living in nature from day 1!
Nowadays everyone thinks we get immunized for everything yet we are barely immune to anything. Go figure.

[donKey jote]

How do you know we all are human beings? We speak a human language and can type and sometimes we behave like, well, human beings, but is this a proof strong enough?

I'm a donkey and a human :andrea:

[donKey jote]

In years gone by people had a very strong immune system because they were living in nature from day 1!
Nowadays everyone thinks we get immunized for everything yet we are barely immune to anything. Go figure.

In years gone by many were only living til day 2 !

[ioan]

In years gone by many were only living til day 2 !

And those who outlived that day were strong enough to live a lifetime.
Nowadays we think we are smarter than nature, the result is microbiological lifeforms which are much stronger then ever.

If any of you have elder family members that are considering to stay in a hospital for anything but life-threatening issues, discourage them to do so. Their immune system might not be up to dealing with what lives in there and most antibiotics can't either.

[donKey jote]

Get fat from sitting on a sofa, eating and drinking crap. Will die of heart attack or diabetes long before reaching the age of their grandparents.

so what's new BBC News - Heart disease present in ancient mummies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21739193) :p

[donKey jote]

And those who outlived that day were strong enough to live a lifetime.

A lifetime about half as long as what is now considered normal...

[Bagwan]

Lithium is a limited, non-renewable resource.

Said the oil guy .
And why wouldn't you cast doubt on it from that seat in cowtown .

One country in South America(synapses won't fire to help me remember which particular one right now) is calling a moratorium on new oil fields , even though they are substantial , and focussing on a hugh supply of lithium under a vast salt flats at high altitude .
Apparently , there is enough there to supply a vast increase in battery usage throughout the world .

You are correct , though , that it is finite , but it is a definite sign that there are other roads that are just as viable as your oil .
The one rosy point for you oil guys is that they'll likely be using lots of it in the extraction of the lithium .

[donKey jote]

Here bags, use sodium instead... far cheaper than lithium, and you could save on heating too :p
Molten salt battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery)

[ioan]

A lifetime about half as long as what is now considered normal...

Yet they spent more time outside the office then any of us do, eh? So who lived more?

[ioan]

Said the oil guy .
And why wouldn't you cast doubt on it from that seat in cowtown .

One country in South America(synapses won't fire to help me remember which particular one right now) is calling a moratorium on new oil fields , even though they are substantial , and focussing on a hugh supply of lithium under a vast salt flats at high altitude .
Apparently , there is enough there to supply a vast increase in battery usage throughout the world .

You are correct , though , that it is finite , but it is a definite sign that there are other roads that are just as viable as your oil .
The one rosy point for you oil guys is that they'll likely be using lots of it in the extraction of the lithium .

It is not only finite, it is also expensive to dispose of in a harmless way (i.e. other then shipping it to Africa or South Asia.

[ioan]

so what's new BBC News - Heart disease present in ancient mummies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21739193) :p

For a donks you read too much!
Anyway, I am curious about the percentage of heard diseased mummies. Any ideas?

[Jag_Warrior]

"They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."

[steveaki13]

Another issue with our progress is the scale on which the rich/developed help the poor/underdeveloped.

I am sure research and money can mean Humans can overcome many of the issues facing it, but think there will be a time when a decision needs to be made.

If the progress comes at a huge cost, do Humans who develop and pay for the idea, stand together and insure the whole of Humanity make the leap needed or do they work it for those who are in a position to pay only.

If it is anything like the side of Rich Humans we see most of the time I think we know the answer.


All of which could lead to a split in the Species.

[ioan]

Another issue with our progress is the scale on which the rich/developed help the poor/underdeveloped.

I am sure research and money can mean Humans can overcome many of the issues facing it, but think there will be a time when a decision needs to be made.

If the progress comes at a huge cost, do Humans who develop and pay for the idea, stand together and insure the whole of Humanity make the leap needed or do they work it for those who are in a position to pay only.

If it is anything like the side of Rich Humans we see most of the time I think we know the answer.


All of which could lead to a split in the Species.

There's already a split, of the society. How far will it go? Where will it end? A brave new world?

[Garry Walker]

I personally believe there must be life elsewhere in the universe, maybe not very intellegent life but still life.
Considering just how huge universe really is, then it would be arrogant to think we are the most intelligent species in that. I am sure there are many species somewhere out there, tens of times more intelligent and advanced than us. Just imagine - Milky Way in itself contains maybe 200-300 billion stars and there are about 100 billion galaxies like that. The amount is just so awesome and enourmous one cannot really comprehend it. So I am sure there is much more intelligent life out there than we can ever imagine. I am sure if there was a ranking for the top 1000 most intelligent species in the whole universe, we would not make that list.




What really irritates me is the way 'civilised' countries keep pumping aid into the same old famine hit areas year after year. All that happens is that hundreds of thousands of people are kept in famine limbo without being forced to either leave for better areas or die. It strikes me as very cruel to artificially sustain people on a land that cannot provide for them. Completely agree.

[Zico]

I am sure if there was a ranking for the top 1000 most intelligent species in the whole universe, we would not make that list.


If there are so many other 'species' out there.. and that intelligent, I'm just really disappointed that they haven't bothered to pop by this wee planet to say hello. ;)

[Garry Walker]

If there are so many other 'species' out there.. and that intelligent, I'm just really disappointed that they haven't bothered to pop by this wee planet to say hello. ;)

Considering the size of universe, that is no surprise.

[steveaki13]

Considering just how huge universe really is, then it would be arrogant to think we are the most intelligent species in that. I am sure there are many species somewhere out there, tens of times more intelligent and advanced than us. Just imagine - Milky Way in itself contains maybe 200-300 billion stars and there are about 100 billion galaxies like that. The amount is just so awesome and enourmous one cannot really comprehend it. So I am sure there is much more intelligent life out there than we can ever imagine. I am sure if there was a ranking for the top 1000 most intelligent species in the whole universe, we would not make that list.



I was a bit cautious in my first post, but I too am 100% sure there is a good amount of life out there.

Probably even not that far away.

[steveaki13]

If there are so many other 'species' out there.. and that intelligent, I'm just really disappointed that they haven't bothered to pop by this wee planet to say hello. ;)

If the life that is likely was close this might be the case, but as Garry said. Intellegence cant change the law of physics (that we know of) and to travel the distances covering the universe you would need to be much faster than light, which is in all likelyhood not possible.


Considering the size of universe, that is no surprise.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Considering just how huge universe really is, then it would be arrogant to think we are the most intelligent species in that. I am sure there are many species somewhere out there, tens of times more intelligent and advanced than us. Just imagine - Milky Way in itself contains maybe 200-300 billion stars and there are about 100 billion galaxies like that. The amount is just so awesome and enourmous one cannot really comprehend it. So I am sure there is much more intelligent life out there than we can ever imagine. I am sure if there was a ranking for the top 1000 most intelligent species in the whole universe, we would not make that list.



I agree 100% with Garry! :eek: We are just highly evolved primates.

It must also be the case that species much more advanced than ourselves will have evolved and become extinct on other planets out there.

[Bagwan]

It is not only finite, it is also expensive to dispose of in a harmless way (i.e. other then shipping it to Africa or South Asia.

At this point , I've got lead-acid , primarily due to cost .

The use of lithium could enable a lot of vehicular stuff , due to reduced weight from lead-acid , but maybe it isn't the best alternative .
It all has some cost .

[Garry Walker]

I agree 100% with Garry! :eek: We are just highly evolved primates.

It must also be the case that species much more advanced than ourselves will have evolved and become extinct on other planets out there.
Absolutely. Just think, humans have existed for maybe 100 000 years (it really depends on how we classify humans, so you could say just as well 60 000 years or 150 000 years). The universe is over 13,5 billion years old. What is 100 000 years in that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. I am sure there were intelligent species out there billions of years ago, who have by now vanished to be forgotten by history. And so too will we vanish some day, most likely through the actions of our own.



If the life that is likely was close this might be the case, but as Garry said. Intellegence cant change the law of physics (that we know of) and to travel the distances covering the universe you would need to be much faster than light, which is in all likelyhood not possible.
Exactly. Laws of physics that we know of. That said, the universe is so grand, so impossibly huge that for even the most intelligent species out there, travelling from one edge of universe to our little planet, is just impossible.

[SGWilko]

Some (a few!) bacteria may be resistant to all known antibiotics, but how is this substantially different to the last 10000-100000 years, in which humanity didn't have any pharmaceutical antibiotics?

Oh yes I forgot... air travel.... arrrghhhh we are all going to dieeeeee :eek:

I guess that were it not for antibiotics, bacteria would not need to mutate to form a resistance to it.

Maybe the survival of the fittest theory will see single celled organisms rule the world.

As for air travel - all this has really achieved, apart from seeing lots of lovely foreign scenery, is the spread of disease from continent to continent, the introduction of species non native that take over etc.......

[ioan]

If there are so many other 'species' out there.. and that intelligent, I'm just really disappointed that they haven't bothered to pop by this wee planet to say hello. ;)

How often do you say hello to the ants that you see every now and then in the woods?

[SGWilko]

If there are so many other 'species' out there.. and that intelligent, I'm just really disappointed that they haven't bothered to pop by this wee planet to say hello. ;)

Because there is a sign just ouside our atmosphere with three letters on it;

NWS (Not Worth Saving);

So all the intelligent ones simply wind the window back up and carry on past '3rd rock from the sun'.....

[donKey jote]

Maybe the survival of the fittest theory will see single celled organisms rule the world.
.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't already rule it... They've been surviving pretty well since they came into being a few billion years ago and even made it habitable for us oxygen breathers :p

[donKey jote]

Yet they spent more time outside the office then any of us do, eh? So who lived more?
How much leisure could they afford themselves, after sorting out the basics (food and water) ?
When did they go into retirement?
how many of the billions of people in the world work in offices? take your highly educated west-european glasses off ! :p

[donKey jote]

For a donks you read too much!
Anyway, I am curious about the percentage of heard diseased mummies. Any ideas?

too much playstation in their offices ? :p

[steveaki13]

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't already rule it... They've been surviving pretty well since they came into being a few billion years ago and even made it habitable for us oxygen breathers :p

We have alot to thank our microscopic friends for

[ioan]

How much leisure could they afford themselves, after sorting out the basics (food and water) ?
When did they go into retirement?
how many of the billions of people in the world work in offices? take your highly educated west-european glasses off ! :p

When will I go into retirement? Never! Talk about evolution. :\

Unless you think about a desert, for any specific reason, water was never difficult to come buy, nor were fruits and wild animals to provide for food, and if sometimes they ate less at least their body fat levels were lower.

[gadjo_dilo]

When will I go into retirement? Never! Talk about evolution. :\

Unless you think about a desert, for any specific reason, water was never difficult to come buy, nor were fruits and wild animals to provide for food, and if sometimes they ate less at least their body fat levels were lower.
Then why nowadays still there are people starving? :crazy:

[donKey jote]

When will I go into retirement? Never! Talk about evolution. :\
we're talking about humanity as a whole, not about 1 person called Ioan :)

[gadjo_dilo]

When will I go into retirement? Never!

Ioane, Ioane....
Aren't you the same guy who started this thread?
http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/153234-what-about-only-retiring-age-80-a.html

:crazy:

[ioan]

we're talking about humanity as a whole, not about 1 person called Ioan :)

Rest assured, it applies to all those who aren't retiring withing the next 10 years or so.

[ioan]

Ioane, Ioane....
Aren't you the same guy who started this thread?
http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/153234-what-about-only-retiring-age-80-a.html

:crazy:

And what changed since that thread? Nothing, we are all going to work a lifetime because of the stupid system.

[ioan]

Then why nowadays still there are people starving? :crazy:

Good question, unless you refer to those living in desert regions, which I have specifically excluded in my post above.

[steveaki13]

Another aspect of Humanity that I was thinking about today when seeing the new pope being introduced was religion.

Lets not get into which is the best religion or why one is right and others are wrong. I was thinking about what it is in Humans that makes them feel the need for religion.

I assume it comes from when we began asking questions about the world around us. When we rose above the other species in terms of grasping what our place in the world was. Once that happens questions are asked and with a lack of answers then the next step is to come up with the most likely solution and one which makes you feel safe.

[ioan]

Lets not get into which is the best religion or why one is right and others are wrong.

None is better and they are all wrong anyway.


I was thinking about what it is in Humans that makes them feel the need for religion.

Can't help you on this one.

[steveaki13]

Can't help you on this one.

It is a tough one, but it does seem lack of knowledge see's humans need to understand through the easiest to understand solution.

You have to remember everything which seems obvious to us now, did not exsist in our brains back in the day. So its understandable why people formulated Religion.

Also it seems nigh on 100% would be religious back in earlier times and as knowledge grows the percentage of relgious followers decreases.

This could be the answer and the dodgy aspects of religion (hate, intolerance) could come to an end.


Heres hoping.

[gadjo_dilo]

Another aspect of Humanity that I was thinking about today when seeing the new pope being introduced was religion.

Lets not get into which is the best religion or why one is right and others are wrong. I was thinking about what it is in Humans that makes them feel the need for religion.

I assume it comes from when we began asking questions about the world around us. When we rose above the other species in terms of grasping what our place in the world was. Once that happens questions are asked and with a lack of answers then the next step is to come up with the most likely solution and one which makes you feel safe.

Now I'm not a practicant orthodox but I still believe in God and follow traditions without going to church.
In my case religion can’t offer solutions to questions related to the material world. However it may give me some peace to my troubled mind and helps me to continue to believe in the moral values in which I was raised.

To set the record straight I don’t mind being ridiculed for my faith because after all I’m neither better nor worse than any of you.

[henners88]

Now I'm not a practicant orthodox but I still believe in God and follow traditions without going to church.
In my case religion can’t offer solutions to questions related to the material world. However it may give me some peace to my troubled mind and helps me to continue to believe in the moral values in which I was raised.

To set the record straight I don’t mind being ridiculed for my faith because after all I’m neither better nor worse than any of you.
If religion helps you and gives you the guidance you desire then that's what its all about and its fab you find comfort in that :)

I seek my comfort and guidance through close family and friends and was always taught that 'a problem shared is a problem halved'. I try to analyse things, possibly too much when things get tough and we all need the help of others be it in person or from something written down.

[Rollo]

Then why nowadays still there are people starving? :crazy:

There's not a good enough profit motive for anyone to care about them.

[gadjo_dilo]

There's not a good enough profit motive for anyone to care about them.
True, but as Ioan said, there are enough fruits and wild animals to provide for food.

Just read ( as a working task of course :devil :) our law of hunting and was amused to see that among other methods hunting is permitted with bows and arrows so why don't the hungry people go "back to nature"?

[gadjo_dilo]

I seek my comfort and guidance through close family and friends and was always taught that 'a problem shared is a problem halved'. I try to analyse things, possibly too much when things get tough and we all need the help of others be it in person or from something written down.

Hmm…I also do it but I’m not sure I always get the best advice.
Friends are like “ you should do things in order to be well for you, you should know and follow your own interest, etc, “. They help me to understand the rules to survive but I’m aware that if I follow them I’d become a horrible insensitive person – which in fact I am because whether I like it or not I have to survive and “evolve”. :devil:

[steveaki13]

An interesting aspect of humanity is the pack mentality. We are of course a social creature and that seems to go deeper than many of us think.

I was watching some coverage of some riots and was thinking about the pack mentality that seems to develop.

One or two individuals often (not always) in a certain setting seem to be reasonable people and yet once in a larger group are willing to partake in violent attacks.

I was watching a programme a few months ago, where they did an interesting experiment.
They had a group of 100 people and put them into the centre of a room. They instructed the group that the two doors of the room were North and South. Next they told everyone, that when a buzzer sounded they were to run as fast as possible out of the North door only, In the first experiment every person ran to the North and escaped.

Then 5 people who were planted pre experiment, had been told to run to the South door despite the instruction to run towards the North door.

When the experiment was repeated it ended that only about 65 had gone to the North Door, but 35ish went to the South door.

The basic idea being, that despite having in your own head an instruction to follow (i.e - North Door), when the pack mentality kicks in people just follow the nearest person to them and lose all sense of which door is which and that without thinking they heard like sheep.

I found this interesting that despite the independence we have, we still flock when in a chaotic situation.

Just an interesting thought. I suppose the same goes with pressure from friends and family. The general situation that kids are talked into smoking or drinking because friends say its cool. Its natural that people conform.

Generally people don't differ much from the main stream image. Just the way we are wired I suppose.

[gadjo_dilo]

That reminds me the riot we had at work a few years ago. I attended even if I wasn't that desperate and was a rebel without a cause. :p

[steveaki13]

That reminds me the riot we had at work a few years ago. I attended even if I wasn't that desperate and was a rebel without a cause. :p

See case in point. :p

You realise you were exhibiting Sheep like behaviour. :p

[gadjo_dilo]

That reminds me the riot we had at work a few years ago. I attended even if I wasn't that desperate and was a rebel without a cause. :p

See case in point. :p

You realise you were exhibiting Sheep like behaviour. :p
Maybe
But ironically that experience changed me into a fearless revolutionary.
:laugh:

[Roamy]

The world has become a massive sh!thole and is spinning out of control. I see no correction in sight. The havenots will continue to spew kids out like rabbits in heat and demand the haves pay the bill. In the end the only country possible of any decency will probably be New Zealand if they control immigration. Maybe the Aussies too. The rest of us are fuked and fuked good.

[Roamy]

A big earthquake with the strength of 8.1 on the Richter scale hit the Middle East . Two million Muslims died and over a million were injured.

Iraq and Iran are totally ruined and the governments don't know where to start with providing help to rebuild. The rest of the world is in shock.

The USA is sending troops to help................

Saudi Arabia is sending oil...................

Latin American countries are sending supplies..................

New Zealand is sending sheep, cattle and food crops................

The Asian countries are sending labour to assist in rebuilding the Infrastructure..................

Canada is sending medical teams and supplies......................

GREAT BRITAIN...............not to be outdone.................is sending two million replacement Muslims.

God Bless GREAT BRITAIN ....

Boy, those Brits are smart...!!

[steveaki13]

wow

I was talking about this issue with Gadjo on the Word Games forum.

I was saying how much I admire top level surgeons. I know people like to moan about doctors and as such, but back when my mother had her strokes the skill and pressure that the brain surgeons we talked to, are under is amazing.

Its one of the wonderful things about humanity. The individuals ability to learn and practice such an amazingly precise procedure.
I personally cannot imagine having someone's life in my hands and opening up their skull and being so calm and precise as to be able to repair damage in said brain, yet while knowing that one wrong move will end that persons life. They then do this many times a day or week.

They are one of the best examples of what humanity is and can be. Simply incredible.

[gadjo_dilo]

Hmmm. We also have good doctors here. The difference is that they don't do these things cos they have humanitarian feelings but only for a great amount of money. ;(
No money - no life.

[steveaki13]

Hmmm. We also have good doctors here. The difference is that they don't do these things cos they have humanitarian feelings but only for a great amount of money. ;(
No money - no life.

That is sad to hear. That is not how it should be. I suppose that is a bad side of humanity. Greed.

I hope things can improve in your country. Everyone deserves a decent healthcare system. :(

[Starter]

I was saying how much I admire top level surgeons. I know people like to moan about doctors and as such, but back when my mother had her strokes the skill and pressure that the brain surgeons we talked to, are under is amazing.

Its one of the wonderful things about humanity. The individuals ability to learn and practice such an amazingly precise procedure.
I personally cannot imagine having someone's life in my hands and opening up their skull and being so calm and precise as to be able to repair damage in said brain, yet while knowing that one wrong move will end that persons life. They then do this many times a day or week.

They are one of the best examples of what humanity is and can be. Simply incredible.
Depends on the patient. They wouldn't have to be nearly as precise working on me. I've got plenty of extra room in there for a wide margin of surgical error.

[steveaki13]

It seems to me that Homo Sapiens have become Human, through intelligence that no other animal on earth has ever had.


The reward for this intelligence is to be so inquisitive, that they learn more and more about the world.

As they learn about the world they Create Religion to explain the unexplainable, and through this learning and religion, they hate others more and more because of their views of the world differ to their own.


The increase in knowledge and intelligence causes divides between peoples, and creates nations that then split.


Then wars between these nations begin, which drives each side to gain the upper hand on the other.


They seek more knowledge to create bigger and worse weapons than ever before.

These nations then have bigger and bigger wars, until the threat of a war is enough to stop a war itself.


Then finally stalemate and a decision by Humanity is needed.


Do Humans become intelligent enough to leave wars behind them forever or does that war finally happen.

Then the price of being the most intelligent creature ever to have existed on this earth, is to potentially have a war that wipes everything off the face of the planet.


Maybe this is why, no intelligent life from outer space has ever reached Earth.


Maybe to achieve that level of space travel, intelligent life would need to be so advanced that it never happens.


Maybe Intelligent life wipes itself out before it gets to that stage of evolution.


Thus the price of Human Intelligence maybe to realise what we are, and destroy everything we have ever been.

[Rudy Tamasz]

It seems to me that Homo Sapiens have become Human, through intelligence that no other animal on earth has ever had.

Creation that's called.


The reward for this intelligence is to be so inquisitive, that they learn more and more about the world.

Fall from grace.


As they learn about the world they Create Religion to explain the unexplainable, and through this learning and religion, they hate others more and more because of their views of the world differ to their own.

The Law is given and duly ignored or misinterpreted by people.


The increase in knowledge and intelligence causes divides between peoples, and creates nations that then split.

Tower of Babel.


Then wars between these nations begin, which drives each side to gain the upper hand on the other.

House divided.


They seek more knowledge to create bigger and worse weapons than ever before.

They disregard the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment.


These nations then have bigger and bigger wars, until the threat of a war is enough to stop a war itself.

They elect neo-heathen (nazi) or downright godless (commie) governments and sort themselves out.


Then finally stalemate and a decision by Humanity is needed.

They still don't get the point and switch to the local scale of killing each other instead of global.


Do Humans become intelligent enough to leave wars behind them forever or does that war finally happen.

Intelligent enough to delegate killing to drones. Sending drones is not real warfare, is it?


Then the price of being the most intelligent creature ever to have existed on this earth, is to potentially have a war that wipes everything off the face of the planet.

That's the price of making a big mistake in the very beginning, then ignoring all warnings and offers of help and then rejecting the ultimate sacrifice.


Maybe this is why, no intelligent life from outer space has ever reached Earth.

A certain guy has, albeit not from the outer space or any physical space at ll, and made a few valid points. Again, some opted to disregard those.


Maybe to achieve that level of space travel, intelligent life would need to be so advanced that it never happens.

It will. That is explicitly stated in the same sources. That "life" is very "intelligent" if you could use such earthly terms to describe it.



Maybe Intelligent life wipes itself out before it gets to that stage of evolution.

It wipes its sins out or it wipes itself out.


Thus the price of Human Intelligence maybe to realise what we are, and destroy everything we have ever been.

That's the price of being wise (or intelligent) fools and ignoring the main thing while paying a lot of attention to petty details.

Easy stuff. I'm off to finish my coffee.

[gadjo_dilo]

That's the price of being wise (or intelligent) fools and ignoring the main thing while paying a lot of attention to petty details.


:s

[Roamy]

Well, in Europe the population has already pretty much stabilised. It's declining in fact in many countries, including my own. I'm sure the same will happen elsewhere, eventually.

The white man will vanish from the face of the earth via genocide and it will be no fault but our own. Unless some plague balances the scales again, which I doubt.

[BDunnell]

The white man will vanish from the face of the earth via genocide and it will be no fault but our own. Unless some plague balances the scales again, which I doubt.

A plague of stupidity and venal ignorance has already infected many right-wing Americans, so it could happen.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Nice to see you back here, BDunnell. It's been a while since we had a good conversation.

[janvanvurpa]

A plague of stupidity and venal ignorance has already infected many right-wing Americans, so it could happen.

And they've spread their disease all around to world to other equally stupid and ignorant people via radio and TV and the inter-net..
Coupla good examples

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-wiles-ebola-could-solve-americas-problems-atheism-and-homosexuality

Rick Wiles: 'Ebola Could Solve America's Problems With Atheism And Homosexuality' - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-wiles-ebola-could-solve-americas-problems-atheism-and-homosexuality#sthash.sfZNFTck.dpuf

Rick Wiles: 'Ebola Could Solve America's Problems With Atheism And Homosexuality'


Submitted by Brian Tashman on Wednesday, 8/6/2014 4:10 pm

Right before chatting with a Republican congressman (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/frank-wolf-thinks-terrorists-are-crossing-border-whistling-dixie-thanks-obama) on his on “Trunews” program yesterday, End Times radio host Rick Wiles said that an outbreak of Ebola in the U.S. might actually be a good thing if it ends up giving an “attitude adjustment” to all the gays and atheists, along with people who use pornography or have had an abortion, who will die if they aren’t “protected by God.”
“Now this Ebola epidemic can become a global pandemic and that’s another name for plague. It may be the great attitude adjustment that I believe is coming,” he said. “Ebola could solve America’s problems with atheism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, pornography and abortion.”
“If Ebola becomes a global plague, you better make sure the blood of Jesus is upon you, you better make sure you have been marked by the angels so that you are protected by God. If not, you may be a candidate to meet the Grim Reaper.”




- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-wiles-ebola-could-solve-americas-problems-atheism-and-homosexuality#sthash.sfZNFTck.dpuf

[D-Type]

How can an educated person believe that?

[Starter]

How can an educated person believe that?
Ah, but you assume first that they are educated and second that, even if they've been to school, they have a functioning brain.

I do take exception however with BDunnell's assertion that "many" right wingers subscribe to that kind of thing and challenge him to define "many" as used here.

[steveaki13]

What we are seeing in Gaza and now Iraq still makes you wonder what Humanity is and how religion seems to give Humanity as reason to hate.

I mean I know people can hate whatever, but religion does seem to cause so much large scale conflict.

[Rudy Tamasz]

What we are seeing in Gaza and now Iraq still makes you wonder what Humanity is and how religion seems to give Humanity as reason to hate.

I mean I know people can hate whatever, but religion does seem to cause so much large scale conflict.

People don't fight over religion. People fight over power and resources. They only use religion, race etc. to distinguish between sides.